FabSwingers.com forum: Italy in Recession and Germany is Next

By *icksone OP Man
over a year ago

oldham

Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

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By *wosmilersCouple
over a year ago

Heathrowish

What may concern us is that out closest customers will not be buy as many of our goods or services as a result.

The best outcome for Brexit would be that both Britain and the EU thrive.

We may be better out but if the market for our stuff collapses, then we will also economically suffer.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Something that I find quite offensive is that most European countries have been great friends to the U.K. for a very, very long time.

Yet we now have Brexiters stating that although it was manifestly our decision to leave we need to want EU countries to fall into recession and use their economic situation as a means to make our stupid decision work best for us.

With friends like us, who needs enemies?

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"Something that I find quite offensive is that most European countries have been great friends to the U.K. for a very, very long time.

With friends like us, who needs enemies?"

Or then again, maybe its a reaction to the remainers on here previously joyously shouting about how much better the EU countries were doing than the UK, and that this was manifest proof that voting for Brexit would drive the UK into recession...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Who needs Europe? After all, we can make our own Olive Oil..... can't we?

Oh, I thought British were very good at having the first cold press on extra virgins?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy."

You forgot to mention France, and it's Capital Paris which has been on fire with Protest against Macron every weekend for at least 2 months now. Macron is virtually in hiding from the yellow vests. The disruption there is also pushing France into recession. It was mentioned on the BBC This Week programme last night that Macron is so unpopular now in France his advisors have said the only way he could become more popular is if his wife was to suddenly die, so he could claim some sympathy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Eu fourth quarter growth was 0.3%.

Uks three month as at November was 0.3%

Same as France

Spain posted 0.7%.

If the average is that low, and there is some spread, some will be in recession. But I’ve seen nothing in the trends to say we’re an outlier which proves anything.

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By *oghunter33Woman
over a year ago

on the hill NordWest of

Sure the EU would have collapsed a long time ago as there were several phases of recession in different EU countries since its existence. If the UK leaves with no deal it might join Italy and Germany soon.

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By *uietbloke67Man
over a year ago

outside your bedroom window ;-)

[Removed by poster at 02/02/19 00:30:52]

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

You forgot to mention Spain: 2.8% growth over the last 12 months....you're welcome

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Why Are We Pleased With Others' Misfortune?

From Psychology Today:

It is not enough to succeed; others must fail. (Gore Vidal)

Malice is like a game of poker or tennis; you don't play it with anyone who is manifestly inferior to you. (Hilde Spiel)

The emotion of pleasure-in-others'-misfortune (Schadenfreude in German) is generally regarded as morally evil.

It is often considered to be less acceptable than envy, which is regarded as a deadly sin. It would appear to be morally more perverse to be pleased with another person's misfortune than to be displeased with another person's good fortune.

Indeed Arthur Schopenhauer argues that to feel envy is human, but to enjoy other people's misfortune is diabolical.

For Schopenhauer, pleasure-in-others'-misfortune is the worst trait in human nature since it is closely related to cruelty. I believe that once we understand better this emotion, it becomes more natural and acceptable.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

You forgot to mention that Italy is being run by one of your anti-establishment coalitions.

I guess the recession is someone else's fault. It couldn't be anything to do with their policies could it Centaur?

Neither wants to leave the EU by the way, they just want want to take it over and run it in their own intolerant image.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

You forgot to mention Spain: 2.8% growth over the last 12 months....you're welcome"
You forgot to mention the 14.45% unemployment rate .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unless every country in the world uses the same criteria for classing people as unemployed, comparing relative figures is misleading.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

"Unless every country in the world uses the same criteria for classing people as unemployed, comparing relative figures is misleading."
Not misleading when you spend alot of time with them in fact Andalusia where spend a lot of time the unemployment rate is over 21% dont matter how you count them they are still out of work.They are worried about brexit as 20% of the tourists are from the uk.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Schadenfreude binds brexiters together.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Unless every country in the world uses the same criteria for classing people as unemployed, comparing relative figures is misleading.Not misleading when you spend alot of time with them in fact Andalusia where spend a lot of time the unemployment rate is over 21% dont matter how you count them they are still out of work.They are worried about brexit as 20% of the tourists are from the uk. "

That’s their unemployment figures based on their criteria. Our unemployment figures are based on our criteria. Unless both criteria are the same the unemployment rates can’t be compared.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Why Are We Pleased With Others' Misfortune?

From Psychology Today:

It is not enough to succeed; others must fail. (Gore Vidal)

Malice is like a game of poker or tennis; you don't play it with anyone who is manifestly inferior to you. (Hilde Spiel)

The emotion of pleasure-in-others'-misfortune (Schadenfreude in German) is generally regarded as morally evil.

Indeed Arthur Schopenhauer argues that to feel envy is human, but to enjoy other people's misfortune is diabolical.

This..

I totally get that the majority who voted leave did so on a sincere belief and a wish that we will in doing so prosper..

I fail to see the logic with those who delight in the possible misfortune of others, who relish the possibility that the EU will fail..

Regardless of the knock on effect of such a thing, there's something of a sickness in the taking pleasure of that..

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

This..

I totally get that the majority who voted leave did so on a sincere belief and a wish that we will in doing so prosper..

I fail to see the logic with those who delight in the possible misfortune of others, who relish the possibility that the EU will fail..

Regardless of the knock on effect of such a thing, there's something of a sickness in the taking pleasure of that.. "

The word that leapt out at me was "cruelty".

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

"Why Are We Pleased With Others' Misfortune?

From Psychology Today:

It is not enough to succeed; others must fail. (Gore Vidal)

Malice is like a game of poker or tennis; you don't play it with anyone who is manifestly inferior to you. (Hilde Spiel)

The emotion of pleasure-in-others'-misfortune (Schadenfreude in German) is generally regarded as morally evil.

Indeed Arthur Schopenhauer argues that to feel envy is human, but to enjoy other people's misfortune is diabolical.

This..

I totally get that the majority who voted leave did so on a sincere belief and a wish that we will in doing so prosper..

I fail to see the logic with those who delight in the possible misfortune of others, who relish the possibility that the EU will fail..

Regardless of the knock on effect of such a thing, there's something of a sickness in the taking pleasure of that.. "
I dont think the majority of leavers want to see the eu fail but you will always get extremists in any walk of life.

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By *haverMan
over a year ago

bracknell

Yes, always find when you can attach a word to something you dont agree with, makes it easier to hate people who hold that opinnion lets blame brexit on all the worlds problems, recessions and house price crashes, unemployment have always existed we are just pawns in a big game wake up and smell the overpriced coffe

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"Unless every country in the world uses the same criteria for classing people as unemployed, comparing relative figures is misleading."

EU members have to measure unemployment and employment in the same way as each other...it's covered under EU directive 577/98.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

That’s their unemployment figures based on their criteria. Our unemployment figures are based on our criteria. Unless both criteria are the same the unemployment rates can’t be compared."

EU directive 577/98 stipulates hkw EU member countries have to measure employment and unemployment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That’s their unemployment figures based on their criteria. Our unemployment figures are based on our criteria. Unless both criteria are the same the unemployment rates can’t be compared.

EU directive 577/98 stipulates hkw EU member countries have to measure employment and unemployment."

Really so Spain forces school leavers without a job into further education thus keeping them off the unemployment figures.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

'Enjoy'

Nothing to enjoy about others' misfortunes, as Sara and others here have posted. I find that distasteful and lacking in respect for every person that's potentially closer to becoming destitute, homeless etc.

It would still not be a reason to justify leaving the EU, especially when the UK isn't currently swamped with trade deals that will be a shadow of what the UK in the EU has delivered for everyone.

I sometimes sense that many see the EU as 'them', rather than 'us'. The EU being what we have helped to succesfully establish and enable, as well as gain enormous benefit from.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy."
Very true

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"'Enjoy'

It would still not be a reason to justify leaving the EU, especially when the UK isn't currently swamped with trade deals that will be a shadow of what the UK in the EU has delivered for everyone.

I sometimes sense that many see the EU as 'them', rather than 'us'. The EU being what we have helped to succesfully establish and enable, as well as gain enormous benefit from. "
Donald Tusk said the same thing the other week and rightly or wrongly most Brits do see them as them.I see us as Brits the French as French,the Germans as Germans etc

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

You forgot to mention Spain: 2.8% growth over the last 12 months....you're welcomeYou forgot to mention the 14.45% unemployment rate ."

It wasn't relevant to a thread which was celebrating the recession in Italy and the impending implosion of the EU.

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex

"'Enjoy'

It would still not be a reason to justify leaving the EU, especially when the UK isn't currently swamped with trade deals that will be a shadow of what the UK in the EU has delivered for everyone.

I sometimes sense that many see the EU as 'them', rather than 'us'. The EU being what we have helped to succesfully establish and enable, as well as gain enormous benefit from. Donald Tusk said the same thing the other week and rightly or wrongly most Brits do see them as them.I see us as Brits the French as French,the Germans as Germans etc"

Oddly most Brextremists seem to think of themselves as English and conveniently forget the other constituent parts of the Union

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

That’s their unemployment figures based on their criteria. Our unemployment figures are based on our criteria. Unless both criteria are the same the unemployment rates can’t be compared.

EU directive 577/98 stipulates hkw EU member countries have to measure employment and unemployment.

Really so Spain forces school leavers without a job into further education thus keeping them off the unemployment figures. "

This is what you said....

"That’s their (Spain's) unemployment figures based on their criteria. Our unemployment figures are based on our criteria. Unless both criteria are the same the unemployment rates can’t be compared."

The criteria on the measurement of employment and unemployment is the same across the EU...as per EU directive 577/98.

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex

That’s their unemployment figures based on their criteria. Our unemployment figures are based on our criteria. Unless both criteria are the same the unemployment rates can’t be compared.

EU directive 577/98 stipulates hkw EU member countries have to measure employment and unemployment.

Really so Spain forces school leavers without a job into further education thus keeping them off the unemployment figures.

This is what you said....

The criteria on the measurement of employment and unemployment is the same across the EU...as per EU directive 577/98.

The measurement is the same (ish....the ages vary between countries actually 15 to 74 year olds in some countries, 16-74 in others). However, people have to be available to work. A 17 year in school or college compulsorily in the UK isnt available to work. Therefore, the point about schemes which keep people of the register mean that they wont be counted in any data trawl has some validity.

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By *hwaaaarrrr!!!Man
over a year ago

London

The Eurozone isn’t collapsing mate.

Italy’s recession has raised doubts over the strength of the eurozone. Here is a health check on some of the key eurozone economies – and the UK.

Germany

The German economy has been flirting with recession in recent months, as vehicle emissions tests – introduced in the wake of the VW scandal – and a drop in car sales in China act as a drag on industrial output. While official figures are yet to be published, analysts believe the eurozone’s largest economy probably contracted for the second quarter in a row in the final three months of 2018 – enough for a technical recession. Jobs growth has, however, remained strong. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) estimates the economy expanded by 1.5% last year, while growth will slow to 1.3% in 2019.

France

The country’s economy ended 2018 on a stronger footing than expected, despite the headwinds from the gilets jaunes anti-government protests, first started as a backlash against plans to raise fuel taxes. Rising export volumes offset sluggish household consumption in the final quarter of the year. GDP rose by 0.3% in the three months to December, contributing to annual growth of 1.5%. The IMF forecasts growth will remain steady at that level in 2019.

United Kingdom

Like much of Europe, Britain has suffered from a downturn in manufacturing linked to new vehicle emissions tests and faltering demand in China. However, Brexit poses additional problems. Despite this, unemployment is the lowest since the mid-1970s and wage growth has accelerated to the highest level in a decade. After robust growth in the summer, GDP growth is expected to ease to about 0.3% in the fourth quarter as mounting Brexit fears act as a drag on activity. The IMF forecasts GDP growth of 1.4% in 2018 and 1.5% should Brexit pass smoothly. The Bank of England warns that a disorderly no-deal Brexit could trigger an immediate recession worse than the 2008 financial crisis.

Portugal

Like Italy, Greece, Ireland and Spain, the Portuguese economy tanked during the 2011 eurozone debt crisis, with the country needing a bailout from the IMF and the EU as unemployment soared. Since then the socialist government under prime minister António Costa has overseen a robust recovery. Unemployment has fallen to 6.7%, below the eurozone average, while GDP growth of 1.8% in 2018 is forecast by the European commission, expected to moderate to 1.7% this year. However, debt-to-GDP levels – at 120% – remain the highest in the EU apart from Italy and Greece.

Greece

Still bearing the scars of a decade of austerity, Greece raised money last week on the bond markets for the first time since exiting its support programme from the EU and IMF late last year. Real wages remain as much as 3% below their pre-crisis peak, though GDP growth has gradually returned and is projected to reach 2.4% this year. Unemployment remains at an eye-watering 18.1%; however, it is falling slowly. Greece’s prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, announced the first increase in the country’s minimum wage in nearly a decade last week.

Ireland

In a dramatic recovery from the financial crisis, when its banks went into meltdown, Ireland is set to record the strongest growth in the EU for 2018. After an international bailout and unemployment hitting 16%, the jobless rate has dropped to 5.3% and is forecast to improve further. GDP growth is forecast at 6% for last year and 4.1% in 2019. However, there are risks from Brexit, given Ireland’s close links to the UK, with the central bank warning that a no-deal scenario may knock four percentage points off the growth rate in the first year.

Spain

Now the strongest performer of the big four euro economies, Spain saw GDP growth of 0.7% over the final three months of 2018, up from 0.6% in the third quarter, in a marked contrast to the slowdown elsewhere. GDP in 2018 was 2.4%, versus average growth in the eurozone of 0.2%. But household spending is expected to ease – meaning growth is forecast to slow to about 2.2% this year, according to the IMF.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

" celebrating the recession in Italy and the impending implosion of the EU."

Sort of sums brexit and its acolytes up.

The question is can we find a similar attitude in another time and place in modern history so that we can compare the outcome?

How about Fascist Italy under Mussolini in the 1930's, maybe Nazi Germany or imperialist Japan at the same time. None are a perfect fit as they all were ruled by dictatorships. But when you look at the actions of our present government and the acknowledged planning for the use of emergency powers and military to maintain order post brexit is our government much different?

Anyone want to remind me how things worked out for the 3 countries mentioned above?

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By *estivalMan
over a year ago

borehamwood

germany and japan seem to be doing ok

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think only a deranged mind would be wishfully thinking brexit will be the blue touch paper that blows the EU to pieces.

The expression cut of your nose to spite your face doesn't come close.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" celebrating the recession in Italy and the impending implosion of the EU.

This thread is just about evidence FOR the implosion if the EU. Please put any balancing evidence in another thread...

And remainers get told they live in an echo chamber !

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

When Britain went into recession, I cannot recall anyone predicting the collapse of the union and the crash of the £.

Except some nationalists on the fringes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Think you have got to look at the reasons for the events:

Italy - mismanagement by their government - after all Portugal, Spain & even Greece are seeing growth!

Germany may go into a technical recession, but not a crisis! The emissions scandal has resulted in some losses, as is diesels becoming less popular. Trump trade war has meant China has slowed car sales so various reasons.

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu"

Have you seen the tax rates in Iceland? 37% basic rate and a VAT rate of 24% as well as punitive Duty taxes on alcohol of up to 85% of the cost.

How does that fit in with the “low tax” Singapore in Europe fantasy?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" celebrating the recession in Italy and the impending implosion of the EU.

This thread is just about evidence FOR the implosion if the EU. Please put any balancing evidence in another thread...

And remainers get told they live in an echo chamber !"
.

I think there was an article in the guardian

from 30 influential writers declaring they're witnessing the EU implosion due to popularist uprisings... Which thread should I put it in?

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

[Removed by poster at 04/02/19 22:45:20]

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

" celebrating the recession in Italy and the impending implosion of the EU.

This thread is just about evidence FOR the implosion if the EU. Please put any balancing evidence in another thread...

And remainers get told they live in an echo chamber !.

I think there was an article in the guardian

from 30 influential writers declaring they're witnessing the EU implosion due to popularist uprisings... Which thread should I put it in?

Even one of the EU's greatest cheer leaders George Soros has now admitted the EU doesn't have a future and will collapse.

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By *laytimenowMan
over a year ago

Essex

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu

Have you seen the tax rates in Iceland? 37% basic rate and a VAT rate of 24% as well as punitive Duty taxes on alcohol of up to 85% of the cost.

How does that fit in with the “low tax” Singapore in Europe fantasy?"

The average salary of 310,000 ISK per month (approximately 2900 USD) puts Iceland’s figures among the highest salaries in Europe. Even if the cost of living in the country is high, the purchase power still makes of Iceland an attractive place to be an employee.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu

Have you seen the tax rates in Iceland? 37% basic rate and a VAT rate of 24% as well as punitive Duty taxes on alcohol of up to 85% of the cost.

How does that fit in with the “low tax” Singapore in Europe fantasy?

Except there is nothing there and they need an app to check that they aren't fucking too close a relative.

It's a way of living. A tiny country and tiny population.

Not a model for the UK.

They also held their bankers to account.

We could have done. We did not. As a sovereign state.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

" celebrating the recession in Italy and the impending implosion of the EU.

This thread is just about evidence FOR the implosion if the EU. Please put any balancing evidence in another thread...

And remainers get told they live in an echo chamber !.

I think there was an article in the guardian

from 30 influential writers declaring they're witnessing the EU implosion due to popularist uprisings... Which thread should I put it in?

Even one of the EU's greatest cheer leaders George Soros has now admitted the EU doesn't have a future and will collapse. "

No. Once again seeing what you want to see.

He said it was at a point where it could collapse. He's witnessed how dictatorship works first hand.

He sees it again in his homeland.

It's not just the collapse of the EU. It's the surrender of freedom for illusory "strength" and "certainty" with all ills blamed on outsiders.

It is being cheered on. When it is established and the reality is apparent it is too late because the systems and organisations pit into place over hundreds of years to protect us will be voted away so that we can "get things done".

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

" celebrating the recession in Italy and the impending implosion of the EU.

This thread is just about evidence FOR the implosion if the EU. Please put any balancing evidence in another thread...

And remainers get told they live in an echo chamber !.

I think there was an article in the guardian

from 30 influential writers declaring they're witnessing the EU implosion due to popularist uprisings... Which thread should I put it in?

Even one of the EU's greatest cheer leaders George Soros has now admitted the EU doesn't have a future and will collapse.

No. Once again seeing what you want to see.

He said it was at a point where it could collapse. He's witnessed how dictatorship works first hand.

He sees it again in his homeland.

It's not just the collapse of the EU. It's the surrender of freedom for illusory "strength" and "certainty" with all ills blamed on outsiders.

Hundreds of years?

The EU only came about in the 1950's/60's.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

" celebrating the recession in Italy and the impending implosion of the EU.

This thread is just about evidence FOR the implosion if the EU. Please put any balancing evidence in another thread...

And remainers get told they live in an echo chamber !.

I think there was an article in the guardian

from 30 influential writers declaring they're witnessing the EU implosion due to popularist uprisings... Which thread should I put it in?

Even one of the EU's greatest cheer leaders George Soros has now admitted the EU doesn't have a future and will collapse.

No. Once again seeing what you want to see.

He said it was at a point where it could collapse. He's witnessed how dictatorship works first hand.

He sees it again in his homeland.

It's not just the collapse of the EU. It's the surrender of freedom for illusory "strength" and "certainty" with all ills blamed on outsiders.

Hundreds of years?

The EU only came about in the 1950's/60's.

Reading comprehension not your thing?

I'm not just talking about the EU. The clue is in the phrase "It's not just the collapse of the EU."

Countries have been around for hundreds of years. Right?

Choosing to talk about a detail rather than the pertinent points again?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

England is next lol.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu"

After the icelandic bank crisis, they were basically bailed out on the back of IMF loans and Russian money....

lots of UK investors lost a lot of money in the icelandic banking crisis as their government refused to underwrite any foreign money invested in their banks......

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

... and on que this morning the Bank of England slash the project economic growth forecast for this year from 1.7% to 1.2%........ and warned of negative economic growth if a no deal brexit goes through

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"... and on que this morning the Bank of England slash the project economic growth forecast for this year from 1.7% to 1.2%........ and warned of negative economic growth if a no deal brexit goes through

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote "

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Brexit will be harmful to more than just the UK economy - I think everyone can agree on that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu

Have you seen the tax rates in Iceland? 37% basic rate and a VAT rate of 24% as well as punitive Duty taxes on alcohol of up to 85% of the cost.

How does that fit in with the “low tax” Singapore in Europe fantasy?

Except there is nothing there and they need an app to check that they aren't fucking too close a relative.

It's a way of living. A tiny country and tiny population.

Not a model for the UK.

They also held their bankers to account.

We could have done. We did not. As a sovereign state."
.

Haha an app for checking whether your fucking relatives?.

I've not heard about any genetic abnormalities in Icelanders or the app but enlighten me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu

Have you seen the tax rates in Iceland? 37% basic rate and a VAT rate of 24% as well as punitive Duty taxes on alcohol of up to 85% of the cost.

How does that fit in with the “low tax” Singapore in Europe fantasy?

Except there is nothing there and they need an app to check that they aren't fucking too close a relative.

It's a way of living. A tiny country and tiny population.

Not a model for the UK.

They also held their bankers to account.

We could have done. We did not. As a sovereign state..

Haha an app for checking whether your fucking relatives?.

I've not heard about any genetic abnormalities in Icelanders or the app but enlighten me."
please say is called Kindr.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu

Have you seen the tax rates in Iceland? 37% basic rate and a VAT rate of 24% as well as punitive Duty taxes on alcohol of up to 85% of the cost.

How does that fit in with the “low tax” Singapore in Europe fantasy?

Except there is nothing there and they need an app to check that they aren't fucking too close a relative.

It's a way of living. A tiny country and tiny population.

Not a model for the UK.

They also held their bankers to account.

We could have done. We did not. As a sovereign state..

Haha an app for checking whether your fucking relatives?.

I've not heard about any genetic abnormalities in Icelanders or the app but enlighten me."

Apparently Fujitsu have been working on an app for the last 2 years that can solve the irish border problem. Fujitsu say it'll be ready to test before March 29th. Yes it's that technology remainers keep insisting doesn't exist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu

Have you seen the tax rates in Iceland? 37% basic rate and a VAT rate of 24% as well as punitive Duty taxes on alcohol of up to 85% of the cost.

How does that fit in with the “low tax” Singapore in Europe fantasy?

Except there is nothing there and they need an app to check that they aren't fucking too close a relative.

It's a way of living. A tiny country and tiny population.

Not a model for the UK.

They also held their bankers to account.

We could have done. We did not. As a sovereign state..

Haha an app for checking whether your fucking relatives?.

I've not heard about any genetic abnormalities in Icelanders or the app but enlighten me.please say is called Kindr. "
.

Oh you are awful

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Still look on the bright side Iceland doing very well outside the eu

Have you seen the tax rates in Iceland? 37% basic rate and a VAT rate of 24% as well as punitive Duty taxes on alcohol of up to 85% of the cost.

How does that fit in with the “low tax” Singapore in Europe fantasy?

Except there is nothing there and they need an app to check that they aren't fucking too close a relative.

It's a way of living. A tiny country and tiny population.

Not a model for the UK.

They also held their bankers to account.

We could have done. We did not. As a sovereign state..

Haha an app for checking whether your fucking relatives?.

I've not heard about any genetic abnormalities in Icelanders or the app but enlighten me.

If you want to read about it just Google 'Fujitsu Irish border app'.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it. "

You didn’t read the bit about your hard no deal brexit sending the uk into negative economic growth did you?....

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

The point is that if you propose a technology to solve the border issue, it needs to be ready now, already tested and proven.

'ready to test before March 29th' tells us nothing. It could be years before it's actually ready to implement.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

The point is that if you propose a technology to solve the border issue, it needs to be ready now, already tested and proven.

'ready to test before March 29th' tells us nothing. It could be years before it's actually ready to implement. "

Then again if the test goes according to plan it could be ready to be rolled out before or on 29th March.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The point is that if you propose a technology to solve the border issue, it needs to be ready now, already tested and proven.

'ready to test before March 29th' tells us nothing. It could be years before it's actually ready to implement.

Then again if the test goes according to plan it could be ready to be rolled out before or on 29th March. "

Not if it goes the way of how most IT testing goes !!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

You didn’t read the bit about your hard no deal brexit sending the uk into negative economic growth did you?....

They seem to have a confidence range of +\- 1.5% which makes any prediction a bit worthless !

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

If it works for the border in Ireland, it should work equally well at all other entry points to the UK.

We can scrap the Border Force - made redundant by technology.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"If it works for the border in Ireland, it should work equally well at all other entry points to the UK.

We can scrap the Border Force - made redundant by technology."

It's not needed at all other entry points into the UK though as all other entry points Into the UK are not subject to the good Friday agreement. The good Friday agreement is only relevant to the irish border.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Just think of the money the country can save by using technology instead of people.

It really is a no-brainer.

A border policed by artificial intelligence.

If we do not require people on the land border, then I really do not see the need for people on the sea or air border.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

I see France and Italy are at each others throats now so much for European harmony.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I see France and Italy are at each others throats now so much for European harmony."

So lame.....

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By *ammskiMan
over a year ago

lytham st.annes

"I see France and Italy are at each others throats now so much for European harmony.

So lame.....

"
. So limp

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

that all you got?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"I see France and Italy are at each others throats now so much for European harmony."

I imagine if Donald Trump invited Tommy Robinson to the White House, there might be a bit of reaction on this side of the Atlantic.

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By *laytimenowMan
over a year ago

Essex

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy."

"The Bank of England expects growth this year to be the slowest since 2009 when the economy was in recession".

Todays latest financial news .

Looks like Britain will be in Recession before Germany .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

"The Bank of England expects growth this year to be the slowest since 2009 when the economy was in recession".

Todays latest financial news .

Looks like Britain will be in Recession before Germany ."

Brexiters only see the problems of other European countries and in their own country do not see anything, oh sorry, all this is the fault of immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe, it is normal for them. Normal for nationalists.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

"The Bank of England expects growth this year to be the slowest since 2009 when the economy was in recession".

Todays latest financial news .

Looks like Britain will be in Recession before Germany ."

They also predict a recession by the end of the year / early next year....whilst at tge same time saying unemployment will continue to drop, employment will continue to rise, and wages will increase by 3% per annum.....a recession like no recession ever....

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it. "

Again, Italy run by an anti-establishment, right wing coalition whom you are very complimentary of, yet they have taken their country into recession in double quick time.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

"The Bank of England expects growth this year to be the slowest since 2009 when the economy was in recession".

Todays latest financial news .

Looks like Britain will be in Recession before Germany .

Just for the record, "employed" includes one hours work a week:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46264291

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

Again, Italy run by an anti-establishment, right wing coalition whom you are very complimentary of, yet they have taken their country into recession in double quick time."

The new anti EU coalition government in Italy put forward a new budget plan when they came to office which the EU promptly rejected. The EU insisted it was changed so the EU have to take responsibility for that.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"Italy is in recession and Germany is all but in recession.

Still wondering why they are worried about the UK pulling out with with a no deal and not giving any money to the EU ?

The Euro zone is starting to collapse.

Do we net to get out faster before we have to start bailing them out ?

Enjoy.

"The Bank of England expects growth this year to be the slowest since 2009 when the economy was in recession".

Todays latest financial news .

Looks like Britain will be in Recession before Germany .

Just for the record, "employed" includes one hours work a week:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46264291"

Just for the record, "recession" means more people doing no work.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Just for the record, "recession" means more people doing no work."

actually..... and i hate to be the bearer of bad news for your pithy response... but it actually doesn't.....

the technical term "recession" means being in negative economic growth for 2 or more consecutive quarters in row.....

which is why the BoE used that specific language about the UK heading for "negative economic growth if a no deal brexit goes through...........

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Just for the record, "recession" means more people doing no work.

actually..... and i hate to be the bearer of bad news for your pithy response... but it actually doesn't.....

the technical term "recession" means being in negative economic growth for 2 or more consecutive quarters in row.....

which is why the BoE used that specific language about the UK heading for "negative economic growth if a no deal brexit goes through..........."

Did you watch BBC Question Time last night Fabio? A guest on the panel said Mark Carney has only got 2 out of his last 12 economic forecasts correct, so he doesn't exactly have a good track record does he.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

Just for the record, "recession" means more people doing no work.

actually..... and i hate to be the bearer of bad news for your pithy response... but it actually doesn't.....

the technical term "recession" means being in negative economic growth for 2 or more consecutive quarters in row.....

which is why the BoE used that specific language about the UK heading for "negative economic growth if a no deal brexit goes through..........."

What's happened to the "deep and profound recession", with "800,000 more unemployed" when we leave?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just for the record, "recession" means more people doing no work."

Really, lol, WTF!!!

OK, it's your Meds time me thinks...

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

Just for the record, "recession" means more people doing no work.

Really, lol, WTF!!!

OK, it's your Meds time me thinks... "

When was the last time a recession in the UK meant more people in work, fewer unemployed, and wage rises above inflation?

And where's the 'deep and profound recession' and '800,000 extra unemployed' that was forecast if we voted leave?

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By *laytimenowMan
over a year ago

Essex

If we left

Not if we voted leave .

Dont forget the Bank of England still has the £300 billion set aside for quantitative easing so recession & banks are under far less pressure for the time being.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just for the record, "recession" means more people doing no work.

Really, lol, WTF!!!

OK, it's your Meds time me thinks...

When was the last time a recession in the UK meant more people in work, fewer unemployed, and wage rises above inflation?

And where's the 'deep and profound recession' and '800,000 extra unemployed' that was forecast if we voted leave?"

I suspect you meant “job losses tend to be associated with recessions” rather than they are the definition of a recession.

I’m afraid fab has become a stickler for pedantry atm. It’s eaiser to claim victories that way !

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"If we left

Not if we voted leave .

Dont forget the Bank of England still has the £300 billion set aside for quantitative easing so recession & banks are under far less pressure for the time being."

No the exact terminology people like George Osborne used in the referendum campaign was 'if we vote to leave' or 'following a vote to leave'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If we left

Not if we voted leave .

Dont forget the Bank of England still has the £300 billion set aside for quantitative easing so recession & banks are under far less pressure for the time being.

No the exact terminology people like George Osborne used in the referendum campaign was 'if we vote to leave' or 'following a vote to leave'. "

Funny you can quote what Osborne said, but can you quote the wording on the referendum ballot?

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By *laytimenowMan
over a year ago

Essex

"If we left

Not if we voted leave .

Dont forget the Bank of England still has the £300 billion set aside for quantitative easing so recession & banks are under far less pressure for the time being.

No the exact terminology people like George Osborne used in the referendum campaign was 'if we vote to leave' or 'following a vote to leave'.

Funny you can quote what Osborne said, but can you quote the wording on the referendum ballot?"

Yup

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By *laytimenowMan
over a year ago

Essex

"If we left

Not if we voted leave .

Dont forget the Bank of England still has the £300 billion set aside for quantitative easing so recession & banks are under far less pressure for the time being.

No the exact terminology people like George Osborne used in the referendum campaign was 'if we vote to leave' or 'following a vote to leave'.

Funny you can quote what Osborne said, but can you quote the wording on the referendum ballot?"

Just in case you didnt know this how Parliament can deal with Referendums .

"Referendums in the United Kingdom are occasionally held at a national, regional or local level. National referendums can be permitted by an Act of Parliament and regulated through the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, but they are by tradition extremely rare due to the principle of parliamentary sovereigntymeaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect".

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

Again, Italy run by an anti-establishment, right wing coalition whom you are very complimentary of, yet they have taken their country into recession in double quick time.

It would have increased the already enormous budget deficit.

It would have broken the terms under which the Euro functions.

Rules shouldn't be observed in your world Centaur?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

Again, Italy run by an anti-establishment, right wing coalition whom you are very complimentary of, yet they have taken their country into recession in double quick time.

It would have increased the already enormous budget deficit.

It would have broken the terms under which the Euro functions.

Rules shouldn't be observed in your world Centaur?"

It could have taken Italy out of recession though. Now we will never know because the EU refused it and made Italy change it, the EU then has to take responsibility for the economic situation Italy now finds itself in.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

Again, Italy run by an anti-establishment, right wing coalition whom you are very complimentary of, yet they have taken their country into recession in double quick time.

It would have increased the already enormous budget deficit.

It would have broken the terms under which the Euro functions.

Rules shouldn't be observed in your world Centaur?

Centaur the economist

Based on what logic? Step through it for me.

Italy shouldn't take responsibility for the economic situation that it is in knowing the rules that exist?

Blame someone else

You've never accepted that any country is responsible for any situation that it is in do you? It's always someone else's fault.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

Again, Italy run by an anti-establishment, right wing coalition whom you are very complimentary of, yet they have taken their country into recession in double quick time.

It would have increased the already enormous budget deficit.

It would have broken the terms under which the Euro functions.

Rules shouldn't be observed in your world Centaur?

Centaur the economist

Based on what logic? Step through it for me.

Italy shouldn't take responsibility for the economic situation that it is in knowing the rules that exist?

Blame someone else

You've never accepted that any country is responsible for any situation that it is in do you? It's always someone else's fault."

No, you've tried to blame Italy and Italy alone, even after its been pointed out to you the EU refused the new Italian coalition government's budget. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that, and it follows that because the EU refused the Italian budget then the EU also has to take responsibility for the economic situation Italy now finds itself in.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

Again, Italy run by an anti-establishment, right wing coalition whom you are very complimentary of, yet they have taken their country into recession in double quick time.

It would have increased the already enormous budget deficit.

It would have broken the terms under which the Euro functions.

Rules shouldn't be observed in your world Centaur?

Centaur the economist

Based on what logic? Step through it for me.

Italy shouldn't take responsibility for the economic situation that it is in knowing the rules that exist?

Blame someone else

You've never accepted that any country is responsible for any situation that it is in do you? It's always someone else's fault.

How did Italy get to where it is?

I'm sure that the EU take their responsibilities very seriously.

What are the consequences to other countries if the ECB allows Italy to do this? Any idea? Thought that through at all?

The Italian budget was to keep p

igate election promises, not to prevent a recession.

However, I'm always happy to encourage you to explain economic policies. What are the prod and cons to both Italy and the Eurozone of allowing such a huge budget deficit based on the proposed spending plan? What economic argument makes you come down in favour of Italy rather than the ECB?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The other interesting nugget that came out this morning is that the uk economy is doing 1.5% of gdp less well than the original forecast after the vote

So we're doing better than Italy who are already in recession and better than Germany and France who are tipping into recession. Glad to see Mark Carney admit it.

Again, Italy run by an anti-establishment, right wing coalition whom you are very complimentary of, yet they have taken their country into recession in double quick time.

It would have increased the already enormous budget deficit.

It would have broken the terms under which the Euro functions.

Rules shouldn't be observed in your world Centaur?

Centaur the economist

Based on what logic? Step through it for me.

Italy shouldn't take responsibility for the economic situation that it is in knowing the rules that exist?

Blame someone else

You've never accepted that any country is responsible for any situation that it is in do you? It's always someone else's fault.

So Centy you've always banged on about the EU cooking the books letting / bending their own rules regarding states budget/economy/debt conformity to join the bloc as in the Greek hidden disaster while now you're against the EU very publicly demanding states conform to the budget rules in the Italian issue....

Which are you for or against because you don't seem as ever to be able to make your mind up

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really. "

Who is to say the independent Italian coalition budget would have been terrible? That's a massive assumption you're making there. The truth is we will never know how it would have turned out because the EU refused it.

If you're going to make a completely made up assumption that it would have been terrible then i can make a massive made up assumption that it would have been brilliant and would have taken Italy out of recession.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that. "

I never said the Italians "proposed budget" was going to be terrible did I, try reading again!!!

I'm clearly stating you blame the EU for everything even when problems are clearly member states government's own handling and nothing to do with the EU.

So once I saw you were putting words in my mouth just so you could twist your alternative facts I stopped reading your bullshit.

You are a waste of debating space on this forum and cannot understand for the life of me why someone would so openly lie and end up ridiculing themselves on such a regular basis.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Which are you for or against because you don't seem as ever to be able to make your mind up

So we'll come back to this again.

Like many topics you often post on one side of an argument to slag the EU off over then days or weeks later you post agreeing on the total opposite side of the argument to slag the EU off....

You can't even agree with yourself on here

Do you not realise how strange that makes you look to people

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that.

I never said the Italians "proposed budget" was going to be terrible did I, try reading again!!!

I'm clearly stating you blame the EU for everything even when problems are clearly member states government's own handling and nothing to do with the EU.

So once I saw you were putting words in my mouth just so you could twist your alternative facts I stopped reading your bullshit.

You are a waste of debating space on this forum and cannot understand for the life of me why someone would so openly lie and end up ridiculing themselves on such a regular basis. "

You said and I quote, "so you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies". Now given we're talking about Italy here you must have been referring to them. The new coalition government in Italy had never been in power there before, they had no track record to look back on. Their new budget when they came to office was rejected by the EU even though they had no track record to compare against previously. So explain how I'm giving them a total free pass on their terrible handling of their own economy, when they had never been in power before? Your posts on this make absolutely no sense what so ever. We'll never know how their new budget would've turned out because it was never given a chance. It could have turned out great and Italy may not have been in recession now. It could have gone badly and Italy could have gone into recession. We will never know.

What we do know for sure is the EU rejected it and insisted that Italy change it. The EU's input into a new budget and having it changed has now seen Italy in recession today.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that.

I never said the Italians "proposed budget" was going to be terrible did I, try reading again!!!

I'm clearly stating you blame the EU for everything even when problems are clearly member states government's own handling and nothing to do with the EU.

So once I saw you were putting words in my mouth just so you could twist your alternative facts I stopped reading your bullshit.

You are a waste of debating space on this forum and cannot understand for the life of me why someone would so openly lie and end up ridiculing themselves on such a regular basis.

What we do know for sure is the EU rejected it and insisted that Italy change it. The EU's input into a new budget and having it changed has now seen Italy in recession today. "

Shall we see if you can back up what you say?

Let's try this again if you want an economic argument. If you can answer then you could convince us all. If not we know it's just the Daily Express again

What are the consequences to other countries if the ECB allows Italy to do this?

The Italian budget was to keep election promises before a threat of a recession. Do you disagree?

What are the pros and cons to both Italy and the Eurozone of allowing such a huge budget deficit based on the proposed spending plan?

What economic argument makes you come down in favour of Italy rather than the ECB?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that.

I never said the Italians "proposed budget" was going to be terrible did I, try reading again!!!

I'm clearly stating you blame the EU for everything even when problems are clearly member states government's own handling and nothing to do with the EU.

So once I saw you were putting words in my mouth just so you could twist your alternative facts I stopped reading your bullshit.

You are a waste of debating space on this forum and cannot understand for the life of me why someone would so openly lie and end up ridiculing themselves on such a regular basis.

What we do know for sure is the EU rejected it and insisted that Italy change it. The EU's input into a new budget and having it changed has now seen Italy in recession today.

Shall we see if you can back up what you say?

Let's try this again if you want an economic argument. If you can answer then you could convince us all. If not we know it's just the Daily Express again

What are the consequences to other countries if the ECB allows Italy to do this?

The Italian budget was to keep election promises before a threat of a recession. Do you disagree?

What are the pros and cons to both Italy and the Eurozone of allowing such a huge budget deficit based on the proposed spending plan?

What economic argument makes you come down in favour of Italy rather than the ECB?"

Oh here we go, Mr 20 questions again.

It seems I'm not the only one who notices you always do this when someone makes a point you don't like, as sponge and JimiUk had also brought it up on other threads. I think JimiUK said when you asked him 20 questions that all of your questions are easily Googled. This tactic of yours asking multiple questions of people who you disagree with just makes you look incredibly lazy (possibly incredibly dumb too).

Anyway having said that I'll indulge you.

1. What are the consequences to other countries if the ECB allows Italy to do this?

The truth is we don't know because Italy weren't allowed to do it. As I already pointed out in an earlier comment it Could have turned out great and Italy could have had high growth and avoided recession or it could have gone badly and Italy hit recession. We'll never know. What we do know is the EU rejected it, and insisted Italy change it, the EU's input has now lead to Italy going into recession.

2. The Italian budget was to keep election promises before the threat of a recession. Do I disagree?

In response to this firstly you seem to be forgetting that no 1 party won outright in the Italian election. The new Italian government is a coalition of 2 parties and so no one party can fully implement it's manifesto or keep all of its election promises. There was a compromise between the 2 parties on what they were going to do after forming a coalition partnership following the election result.

3. What are the pros and cons to both Italy and the Eurozone of allowing such a huge budget deficit based on the proposed spending plan?

Again it would have depended on the economic results of said spending plan, which we will now never know because the EU rejected it. I refer you to the answer to question 1. If the spending plan had been allowed and had been a success then Italy would have been experiencing growth now and would have used money from that growth to pay back the budget deficit to the EU. If it had gone badly Italy would have been in recession, but as the EU rejected the plan the EU's input has still lead to Italy being in recession now anyway.

4. What economic argument makes me come down in favour of Italy rather than the ECB?

Well considering respected independent economists like Steve Keen and Yanis Varoufarkis have called the ECB a bunch of idiots who haven't got a clue what they're doing coupled with previous very poor decisions that have turned out to be a disaster for the EU and the Eurozone then I'm not inclined to have much faith in the abilities of the ECB. The new coalition government in Italy is an unknown factor as they had never been in power before and had no track record to compare previous performance against so I'd be willing to give them a shot at it, rather than the ECB and the EU who's previous track record is littered with one disaster after another.

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By *naqMan
over a year ago

Ayrshire

Speaking of the usual patterns people seem to fall into on the forums you've got a handful of threads debunking your BS to reply to their buddy or are you just gonna keep running away from logic for rhetoric and BS?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that.

I never said the Italians "proposed budget" was going to be terrible did I, try reading again!!!

I'm clearly stating you blame the EU for everything even when problems are clearly member states government's own handling and nothing to do with the EU.

So once I saw you were putting words in my mouth just so you could twist your alternative facts I stopped reading your bullshit.

You are a waste of debating space on this forum and cannot understand for the life of me why someone would so openly lie and end up ridiculing themselves on such a regular basis.

What we do know for sure is the EU rejected it and insisted that Italy change it. The EU's input into a new budget and having it changed has now seen Italy in recession today. "

So I guess you've done a u-turn now believing the EU now should not enforce membership rules because you're always saying they turn a blind eye to member states flouting the rules when joining.

Which is it lol

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Speaking of the usual patterns people seem to fall into on the forums you've got a handful of threads debunking your BS to reply to their buddy or are you just gonna keep running away from logic for rhetoric and BS? "

No I haven't and not getting into it again with you on this thread as it's already been done to death on another thread which you derailed with this nonsense.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that.

I never said the Italians "proposed budget" was going to be terrible did I, try reading again!!!

I'm clearly stating you blame the EU for everything even when problems are clearly member states government's own handling and nothing to do with the EU.

So once I saw you were putting words in my mouth just so you could twist your alternative facts I stopped reading your bullshit.

You are a waste of debating space on this forum and cannot understand for the life of me why someone would so openly lie and end up ridiculing themselves on such a regular basis.

What we do know for sure is the EU rejected it and insisted that Italy change it. The EU's input into a new budget and having it changed has now seen Italy in recession today.

So I guess you've done a u-turn now believing the EU now should not enforce membership rules because you're always saying they turn a blind eye to member states flouting the rules when joining.

Which is it lol

Isn't it remainers like EasyUK who have done a u-turn here . He's always claiming member states in the EU are independent sovereign countries, and yet now he seems to be admitting Italy isn't sovereign and can't control it's own budget and doesn't have the final say over its own budget.

It's about sovereignty isn't it. Is Italy a sovereign independent country in the EU or is the EU now controlling the finances of Italy and controlling Italy's budget?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that.

I never said the Italians "proposed budget" was going to be terrible did I, try reading again!!!

I'm clearly stating you blame the EU for everything even when problems are clearly member states government's own handling and nothing to do with the EU.

So once I saw you were putting words in my mouth just so you could twist your alternative facts I stopped reading your bullshit.

You are a waste of debating space on this forum and cannot understand for the life of me why someone would so openly lie and end up ridiculing themselves on such a regular basis.

What we do know for sure is the EU rejected it and insisted that Italy change it. The EU's input into a new budget and having it changed has now seen Italy in recession today.

So I guess you've done a u-turn now believing the EU now should not enforce membership rules because you're always saying they turn a blind eye to member states flouting the rules when joining.

Which is it lol

It's about sovereignty isn't it. Is Italy a sovereign independent country in the EU or is the EU now controlling the finances of Italy and controlling Italy's budget? "

If you can't agree even with yourself then there's no point in any debate with another person.

Roll on Brexit

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I seem to recall a union where countries elected anti-austerity parties - but still had austerity imposed on them by a highly-centralised power structure.

Not the EU.

The UK.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Just going back to the OP for a moment.

Figures released this morning show German factory orders fell by 1.6% in December and 7% compared to the same month last year (The largest drop since 2012)

This prompted Deutsche Bank to warn that Germany is "drifting towards recession".

That comes on the back of Germania airline going into administration this week. Only just over a year after the demise of Air Berlin.

Blame whatever you like on Brexit but it sure aint sunshine a roses over here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just going back to the OP for a moment.

Figures released this morning show German factory orders fell by 1.6% in December and 7% compared to the same month last year (The largest drop since 2012)

This prompted Deutsche Bank to warn that Germany is "drifting towards recession".

That comes on the back of Germania airline going into administration this week. Only just over a year after the demise of Air Berlin.

Blame whatever you like on Brexit but it sure aint sunshine a roses over here."

Do you have a view why this is? I get the impression given the exposure to manufacturing, brexit plus trade wars are having a larger effect than in the Uk and given Germans are more prudent, there’s less internal stimulus tha here in the UK where our saving ratio on is (I think) lower and personal debt (is I think) higher. So even tho germany still has good wage growth it isn’t stimulating the market in the same way.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

So you give the government's of member states total free passes over their terrible handling of their own economies just so you feel justified in blaming the EU for everything.

It's a bit pathetic really.

Back to the hard facts and what we do know is the EU had its own input on the Italian budget which has now put Italy in recession. The EU has to take its share of responsibility for that.

I never said the Italians "proposed budget" was going to be terrible did I, try reading again!!!

I'm clearly stating you blame the EU for everything even when problems are clearly member states government's own handling and nothing to do with the EU.

So once I saw you were putting words in my mouth just so you could twist your alternative facts I stopped reading your bullshit.

You are a waste of debating space on this forum and cannot understand for the life of me why someone would so openly lie and end up ridiculing themselves on such a regular basis.

What we do know for sure is the EU rejected it and insisted that Italy change it. The EU's input into a new budget and having it changed has now seen Italy in recession today.

Shall we see if you can back up what you say?

Let's try this again if you want an economic argument. If you can answer then you could convince us all. If not we know it's just the Daily Express again

What are the consequences to other countries if the ECB allows Italy to do this?

The Italian budget was to keep election promises before a threat of a recession. Do you disagree?

What are the pros and cons to both Italy and the Eurozone of allowing such a huge budget deficit based on the proposed spending plan?

What economic argument makes you come down in favour of Italy rather than the ECB?

Oh here we go, Mr 20 questions again.

Anyway having said that I'll indulge you.

1. What are the consequences to other countries if the ECB allows Italy to do this?

2. The Italian budget was to keep election promises before the threat of a recession. Do I disagree?

3. What are the pros and cons to both Italy and the Eurozone of allowing such a huge budget deficit based on the proposed spending plan?

4. What economic argument makes me come down in favour of Italy rather than the ECB?

You have not the slightest clue what this is about do you?

You're just ranting because Italy's budget plan was rejected, even though you have no idea why

Putting a number next to your "responses" doesn't make them valid.

Starting with your initial promise of not knowing if you don't try it is it, utter rubbish. That's what you use knowledge, experience, maths, simulations and intelligence for. Not popular nowadays, but planning is a "thing" especially in the context of a national economy.

Italy made a plan. The EU reviewed it and called the assumptions used out as a fantasy, as did the market in increasing the cost of its borrowing.

This has never happened before because every other country consults first and negotiated a budget that avoids adverse effects on their economy and people. Italy choose to show-boat and their people suffered.

It doesn't matter if they are a coalition. They have agreed to maintain policies which will substantially increase national debt with little prospect of paying it back.

There are a number of rules in place to maintain the stability of the currency and economies tied to it.

Should you ignore rules when they don't suit you? The consequence of that is that people don't trust you. They don't believe your promises.

Italy's debt is already equal to 131% GDP already double the limit and proposing to increase it further.

Primarily through reducing the retirement age from 67 to 62 and introducing a minimum basic income and tax reductions. A 2.4% budget deficit. That's a big number when you're already in heavy debt.

They were claiming that this would be paid back with later increases in VAT and a 1.5% growth rate and, perversely, reductions in infrastructure investment. Neither of which were believed as credible. In return the Italian government agreed to actually enforce its tax collection rules!

Did you know that a budget was agreed, despite everything? A budget that still breaches the rules? A budget that Italy claimed would be generating 1% growth, which incidentally nobody believes even now. It could've agreed all of these measures months ago but delayed for publicity. Their borrowing costs did at least fall as a result.

The Italian government claimed that this agreed budget will abolish poverty.

Conti told the Italian parliament that it turned out that they didn't need less money than I foreseen. So the ECB was correct to object it seems ??

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Just going back to the OP for a moment.

Figures released this morning show German factory orders fell by 1.6% in December and 7% compared to the same month last year (The largest drop since 2012)

This prompted Deutsche Bank to warn that Germany is "drifting towards recession".

That comes on the back of Germania airline going into administration this week. Only just over a year after the demise of Air Berlin.

Blame whatever you like on Brexit but it sure aint sunshine a roses over here."

There is absolutely a global contraction hurried along due to Trump's trade war. It would have come anyway but we'll have it earlier and deeper.

Germany exports more so are going to be more effected by the slow down in China.

We don't manage to sell so far afield. Our fault unfortunately, but you only need to look at JLR writing down a £3bn loss to see the problem with large here. This is exacerbated by Brexit leading to purchase substitution from more predictable countries.