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Is Voting really worth it anymore

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

With all the ridiculous, pathetic and downright mind-boggling paralysis that has gripped Westminster over Brexit. A referendum resulted Brexit deal voted down.

Both major parties saying they wanna leave, they don't wanna leave, Party leaders incapable of choosing one side of a fence over the other. Be it Labour or the Torries, both will probably bring our country to its knees.

Is Voting really worth the ballot paper it's printed on after being witness to the last 2.5 years ?

Unless something massively changes politically I really don't think I'll ever vote again.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Voting for a party is still relevant.

Stupid referendums where one of the options is clearly a shit option should be scrapped.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"With all the ridiculous, pathetic and downright mind-boggling paralysis that has gripped Westminster over Brexit. A referendum resulted Brexit deal voted down.

Both major parties saying they wanna leave, they don't wanna leave, Party leaders incapable of choosing one side of a fence over the other. Be it Labour or the Torries, both will probably bring our country to its knees.

Is Voting really worth the ballot paper it's printed on after being witness to the last 2.5 years ?

Unless something massively changes politically I really don't think I'll ever vote again.

"

But but but but................people died and disrupted horse races so that they could have the choice of voting for an arsehole, dick or twat. The system works - we have one of the above in power, and several others yapping at her heels. Sigh, democracy is so sexy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Voting is worth it but not when they put forward a referendum on something that the general public don’t really understand how businesses work in a global scale.

Most of the people who I know that voted leave said it was because quote” they were sick of foreigners taking all of the jobs

Problem is most of them are quite happy claiming and don’t want a job anyways

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

Is it worth voting? Yeah, in the 2016 american election about $47 was spent per vote cast. You think thats not done for good reason?

The more active you are the more your vote is worth. If you want to have more of a say, get more involved.

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By *onny MCMan
over a year ago

Crawley

I'm actually starting to come to the same conclusion and not sure if I can be bothered anymore either.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you vote you're complicit in the charade that it really makes a difference.If you don't vote your apathy changes nothing.

I've voted green all my life in the knowledge they will never get power.

I would welcome PR regardless of the consequences.

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

If you vote and you lose you will think no it’s not if you vote and you win you will think yes it is

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you vote and you lose you will think no it’s not if you vote and you win you will think yes it is "

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Politics has been broken in this country for quite a long time. I don’t think that we have ever been governed by a Party that has the support of the majority of the eligible electorate. The sad irony is that a few years ago when we were given a referendum to change what we had - apathy set in and in any event the vote was to retain what we have.

I think that this whole Brexit business has exposed British politics and really brought into sharp focus a few very troubling issues.

First Past The Post - this has been used as a form of elected Dictatorship during the Brexit process. For the sitting Govt., it has exposed the very poor quality of politicians and it has let off a truly inept group of opposition politicians because they are not in the spotlight. FPTP - needs to be changed to a more representational arrangement. If that means that extremists get into Parliament, then do be it - the best way (as we have seen) for exposing extremist views is to have them challenged, rather than existing in an unchallenged social media bubble. A representative Parliament would also go some way to remove the feeling of isolation and feelings of been ignored and left behind that so many people seem to complain about.

Cabinet qualification. It cannot and should not be possible for anyone to be employed in a position for which they are fundamentally unqualified to take up. It would never happen in real life and more so, it should never happen at the highest level of Government where unqualifiedvpeople get to make decisions over the entire country.

Adversarial or Cooperation. The nature of adversarial politics needs to end. At the moment, Labour looks to undo Tory policies and the Tory’s look to undo Labour policies. It is all bullshit. Better that every single Parliament takes us forwards, rather than 5 steps forwards and two steps backwards.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you vote and you lose you will think no it’s not if you vote and you win you will think yes it is "

Bollocks.! I've voted for greens for 25 years never once did I get a green MP.

Why do I still vote them if it's pointless.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 30/01/19 18:10:59]

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By *rMrsWestMidsCouple
over a year ago

Dudley


"If you vote and you lose you will think no it’s not if you vote and you win you will think yes it is

Bollocks.! I've voted for greens for 25 years never once did I get a green MP.

Why do I still vote them if it's pointless. "

I seem to remember you posting you were disillusioned with the Greens and going to jump on Jeremy's ship!

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

It's not the act of voting that's the problem.

It's the idiot who called a referendum and defined only one outcome - the status quo.

He scarpered as soon as the result came in, and you can see why.

Meanwhile, those who campaigned for change seem equally as clueless about what that looks like and how to deliver it.

The whole thing is a national embarrassment.

(And No, I do not mean those who voted, I am the charlatans whose incompetence and dishonesty is laid bare for all to see.)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OP...if voting made a difference then it would be made illegal...

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By *ab_SparklesWoman
over a year ago

sparkle Surprised

I watched the voting but i hardly heard anything cause most in their were shouting.

But she still won't answer the alternative thing an when asked what she was after. She said that the mps had made it clear on the voting.

No no the eu never ever asked what the uk mps wanted, they asked her what she wanted as a PM. She simply shafted it on to the mps.

All accounts she is not answering anything and if you watch closely look at hunts face everytime she speaks he keeps looking at her..

Oh and i saw briefly the Corbyn meeting was some what different and i got nothing had been resolved.

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By *ab_SparklesWoman
over a year ago

sparkle Surprised

Oh and just seen that this junker as demand we still pay 39billon even if a no deal.. Well it's clear why they want to shackle us for our public money the eu so desperate need. My opinion is hell no go and rob off your own people for your elite league you live in

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

What went wrong? This was the easiest deal in the world to negotiate. Wasn't it?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"Oh and just seen that this junker as demand we still pay 39billon even if a no deal.. Well it's clear why they want to shackle us for our public money the eu so desperate need. My opinion is hell no go and rob off your own people for your elite league you live in "

A drop in the ocean compared to the £190bn in assets that Barclays are shifting out of the UK to the EU because they can no longer tolerate the uncertainty.

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By *ab_SparklesWoman
over a year ago

sparkle Surprised

Was it we are still on pause and not going anywhere quickly. The whole thing is a joke now.. They are voting which ever way it keeps them there job well until one day when the GE eventually roles around. Their script are getting shorter as they have nothing new to say.

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By *rMrsWestMidsCouple
over a year ago

Dudley


"Oh and just seen that this junker as demand we still pay 39billon even if a no deal.. Well it's clear why they want to shackle us for our public money the eu so desperate need. My opinion is hell no go and rob off your own people for your elite league you live in

A drop in the ocean compared to the £190bn in assets that Barclays are shifting out of the UK to the EU because they can no longer tolerate the uncertainty.

"

Drop it in my ocean I would be glad to have it and the Eu seem quite keen too or hadn't you noticed!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Was it we are still on pause and not going anywhere quickly. The whole thing is a joke now.. They are voting which ever way it keeps them there job well until one day when the GE eventually roles around. Their script are getting shorter as they have nothing new to say. "

The next GE will be a slaughterhouse for conservatives of their own making..

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

It really is not a sensible path to go down.

One day people will realise this is not a negotiation of equals. It never has been.

It is just another delusion.

Just like the idea you can walk out on March 29 without settling the invoice and begin talking about trade on March 30.

This has the potential to poison things for years to come.

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By *rMrsWestMidsCouple
over a year ago

Dudley


"It really is not a sensible path to go down.

One day people will realise this is not a negotiation of equals. It never has been.

It is just another delusion.

Just like the idea you can walk out on March 29 without settling the invoice and begin talking about trade on March 30.

This has the potential to poison things for years to come.

"

That might be the case if we were talking small sums but when you are talking in billions it's amazing how forgiving people can be!

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By *ab_SparklesWoman
over a year ago

sparkle Surprised

I'm a realist i believe it well become hard after the 29th but also opamistic that in time all well be good.

Like my town had mega investment in the town that as taken 10-15yrs to shape and still going well. There was no quick fix there nor do I see one with leaving the eu

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm a realist i believe it well become hard after the 29th but also opamistic that in time all well be good.

Like my town had mega investment in the town that as taken 10-15yrs to shape and still going well. There was no quick fix there nor do I see one with leaving the eu"

It's going to get very real if we fall off the cliff into hard brexit land..

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By *rMrsWestMidsCouple
over a year ago

Dudley


"I'm a realist i believe it well become hard after the 29th but also opamistic that in time all well be good.

Like my town had mega investment in the town that as taken 10-15yrs to shape and still going well. There was no quick fix there nor do I see one with leaving the eu

It's going to get very real if we fall off the cliff into hard brexit land.. "

Not the cliff again!

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"OP...if voting made a difference then it would be made illegal... "

Ha, I like that

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"

That might be the case if we were talking small sums but when you are talking in billions it's amazing how forgiving people can be!"

It is less than the amount we pay in interest each year on the debt run up by Conservative chancellors since 2010.

But hey ho, just keep that finger pressed down on the self-destruct button and your ears tuned to the Brexiteers' promise of a land of milk and honey just over the horizon.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"With all the ridiculous, pathetic and downright mind-boggling paralysis that has gripped Westminster over Brexit. A referendum resulted Brexit deal voted down.

Both major parties saying they wanna leave, they don't wanna leave, Party leaders incapable of choosing one side of a fence over the other. Be it Labour or the Torries, both will probably bring our country to its knees.

Is Voting really worth the ballot paper it's printed on after being witness to the last 2.5 years ?

Unless something massively changes politically I really don't think I'll ever vote again.

"
I feel the same as you

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"With all the ridiculous, pathetic and downright mind-boggling paralysis that has gripped Westminster over Brexit. A referendum resulted Brexit deal voted down.

Both major parties saying they wanna leave, they don't wanna leave, Party leaders incapable of choosing one side of a fence over the other. Be it Labour or the Torries, both will probably bring our country to its knees.

Is Voting really worth the ballot paper it's printed on after being witness to the last 2.5 years ?

Unless something massively changes politically I really don't think I'll ever vote again.

"

I thought that the 2 parties who had a monopoly on the FPTP system in the UK (Tory and Labour) were both a shower of shit for many years. I'd been voting ukip since the early 00's. I'd never vote for a pro EU party so had always ruled out the main 3 Lib/Lab/Con and there really wasn't that much to distinguish between them for many years. Ukip were the only really anti EU party out there so that's where my vote went. Outside FPTP and under proportional representation it showed ukip could beat them when they won the MEP elections in 2014.

I only voted Conservative for the first time in 2017 because they promised in their manifesto to respect and deliver on the referendum result and they promised to leave the single market and the customs union. If they don't deliver then they will lose my vote. If Nigel Farage's new party is available for election at the next ballot I will most likely put my vote there now.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" If Nigel Farage's new party is available for election at the next ballot I will most likely put my vote there now. "

To be honest, that's probably the political shift that may get my vote if I was to vote again.

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By *heislanderMan
over a year ago

cheshunt


"

That might be the case if we were talking small sums but when you are talking in billions it's amazing how forgiving people can be!

It is less than the amount we pay in interest each year on the debt run up by Conservative chancellors since 2010.

But hey ho, just keep that finger pressed down on the self-destruct button and your ears tuned to the Brexiteers' promise of a land of milk and honey just over the horizon.

"

Let’s send Diane Abbott to negotiate, we’ll definitely get a better deal

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By *rMrsWestMidsCouple
over a year ago

Dudley


"

That might be the case if we were talking small sums but when you are talking in billions it's amazing how forgiving people can be!

It is less than the amount we pay in interest each year on the debt run up by Conservative chancellors since 2010.

But hey ho, just keep that finger pressed down on the self-destruct button and your ears tuned to the Brexiteers' promise of a land of milk and honey just over the horizon.

"
I'm talking about the trade figures not the 39billion.

LOL, carry on with your drama classes you will be getting an academy award for the performances you put in on here!

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Trade between the UK and EU won't cease. It will just become more difficult and more expensive because free movement has disappeared and barriers (aka red tape) erected by default.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

[Removed by poster at 31/01/19 07:59:09]

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Trade between the UK and EU won't cease. It will just become more difficult and more expensive because free movement has disappeared and barriers (aka red tape) erected by default.

"

It won't be more expensive if the UK and the EU strike a free trade deal. If we have a free trade deal with the EU and no longer have to pay any EU membership fees then we'll be financially better off.

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By *ore of thatMan
over a year ago

skerries

Hard to understand what UK want

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Hard to understand what UK want "

Is it? Thought Parliament made it pretty clear the other night they want to get rid of the backstop.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

We already have a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

The UK is turning its back on that.

Now you want a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

"Hello, Mr Juncker, I'd like to talk free trade."

"Is your cheque in the post yet?"

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"We already have a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

The UK is turning its back on that.

Now you want a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

"Hello, Mr Juncker, I'd like to talk free trade."

"Is your cheque in the post yet?"

"

Liam Fox and Theresa May have already said many of the existing free trade deals the UK enjoys through membership of the EU with the rest of the world will be rolled over after Brexit.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

[Removed by poster at 31/01/19 08:43:05]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We already have a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

The UK is turning its back on that.

Now you want a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

"Hello, Mr Juncker, I'd like to talk free trade."

"Is your cheque in the post yet?"

Liam Fox and Theresa May have already said many of the existing free trade deals the UK enjoys through membership of the EU with the rest of the world will be rolled over after Brexit. "

Has this been confirmed yet? I give little credence to any MPs “promises” atm.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"We already have a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

The UK is turning its back on that.

Now you want a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

"Hello, Mr Juncker, I'd like to talk free trade."

"Is your cheque in the post yet?"

Liam Fox and Theresa May have already said many of the existing free trade deals the UK enjoys through membership of the EU with the rest of the world will be rolled over after Brexit. "

If the countries concerned agree yes that would suit us but with the dynamics of the trade agreements changing so much and our government's spectacular display of negotiating prowess, I wouldn't be surprised if many Countries decided they'd be better off starting negotiations from scratch with the UK instead of copy & pasting existing agreements they have with the EU.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"We already have a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

The UK is turning its back on that.

Now you want a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

"Hello, Mr Juncker, I'd like to talk free trade."

"Is your cheque in the post yet?"

Liam Fox and Theresa May have already said many of the existing free trade deals the UK enjoys through membership of the EU with the rest of the world will be rolled over after Brexit. "

Isn't that wonderful - we are leaving the EU so that we can have, um, er, exactly the same agreements that we had before.

That sounds like another wonderful Brexit win.

Mr Fox says there will be 40 ready on March 30.

None, says a memo leaked to the FT.

Rolled over?

Cut and pasted?

Er, no.

All these agreements are framed in EU law, which no longer applies.

They need to be rewritten.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"

If the countries concerned agree yes that would suit us but with the dynamics of the trade agreements changing so much and our government's spectacular display of negotiating prowess, I wouldn't be surprised if many Countries decided they'd be better off starting negotiations from scratch with the UK instead of copy & pasting existing agreements they have with the EU. "

Mrs May sends out a wonderful message about the competence of the UK in negotiations.

Two years of talks and an agreement between 28 governments.

Mrs May hailing it as a breakthrough.

A few weeks later, she tears it up and wants to re-open talks.

I can see lots of countries queuing up to be treated like that.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Like shaking hands on a deal and wondering have they got their other hand behind their back with fingers crossed..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

If the countries concerned agree yes that would suit us but with the dynamics of the trade agreements changing so much and our government's spectacular display of negotiating prowess, I wouldn't be surprised if many Countries decided they'd be better off starting negotiations from scratch with the UK instead of copy & pasting existing agreements they have with the EU.

Mrs May sends out a wonderful message about the competence of the UK in negotiations.

Two years of talks and an agreement between 28 governments.

Mrs May hailing it as a breakthrough.

A few weeks later, she tears it up and wants to re-open talks.

I can see lots of countries queuing up to be treated like that.

"

A quick google suggests fox has told a select committee it’s not as easy as rolling over.

There’s also some big wrinkles to iron out such as rules of origin (even if they are rolled over less stuff we produce will fall under a FTA as having large amounts of Eu components will mean they are not british. No idea if this means they get classed as Eu tho for tarriffs)

And I read something that MFN means the order and age of agreements matter and so by signing all on the same day would mean different terms than we are on today. But will admit I need to spend more time to understand that.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It's certainly worth it - even if the country gets saddled with a pile of incompetents who harm the country. It's the major way that citizens can direct the government, albeit they may opt to follow a different path afterwards.

It's a strange time in politics, with no clear absolute majority outcomes at elections but also a time of promise - the neoliberal revolution that was sold to the electorate, may become more distasteful and a new direction pursued.

It's especially important atm to vote, as massive issues like global warming need immediate attention and action, to prevent greater catastrophe. If we abdicate responsibility, for the future of the planet and its inhabitants: us and other species - we're potentially more shafted by a minority, with their own short-term interests at heart.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"What went wrong? This was the easiest deal in the world to negotiate. Wasn't it?

"
No never but it was not impossible if handled correctly

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"What went wrong? This was the easiest deal in the world to negotiate. Wasn't it?

No never but it was not impossible if handled correctly"

By whom?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We already have a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

The UK is turning its back on that.

Now you want a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

"Hello, Mr Juncker, I'd like to talk free trade."

"Is your cheque in the post yet?"

Liam Fox and Theresa May have already said many of the existing free trade deals the UK enjoys through membership of the EU with the rest of the world will be rolled over after Brexit. "

And we know that we can believe every word that Liam Fox and Theresa May says. It's not like they have a track record of going back on what they've said. Oh wait hold on a sec.

In other news, what was the point in leaving, wasn't one of the main leave arguments that we can negotiate new better trade deals.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

That is true

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

i had a look on the office for national statistics web site the only country in europe we sell more to than import from is Switzerland and they are not in the eu.Now just using common sense whether you are for or against brexit do you think it will be in everyones intrest to get some kind of deal?.It seems to me a deal would have been done ages ago if the "want a second referendum and dont want to leave" had just shut up and not given the eu a reason to make things difficult in the hope that we would give up and stay.Anyone with any sense knows when you negotiate you never leave walking away off the table as soon as you do that you are going to get the worse deal.

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By *rench letterCouple
over a year ago

Chorley,

I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. "
Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

And anyone with any sense equally knows that if you spend two years negotiating a deal and agree with the other party on that deal then several weeks later decide to announce your wanting to change part of it you look pretty inept..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop."

Sure they want a deal and have made plenty of concessions along the way to try to get this deal. But at some point they have to stand firm. The EU is excellent at negotiating. We used to be on the inside and it was good for us.

But if there is no deal the EU will be negatively impacted in the short term, financial collapse here will effect our neighbours. But ultimately they will be able to negotiate much better trade deals (and much worse from our perspective), in the long term. So they will be just fine.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop."

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories..

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"Now just using common sense whether you are for or against brexit do you think it will be in everyones intrest to get some kind of deal?.I"

The only people who seem to think differently are the extremists on the right.

No rational person wants this to be messy.

The EU knows it will get splattered with blood if the UK fires the pistol pointing at its head.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. "
Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible."

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

You may not think so if you had lived through some of the 3500 dead bodies lying on the streets of the United Kingdom.

To compare it to a gas contract . . .well, it's little wonder that people in Ireland want a legal guarantee.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?"
Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

The backstop is not about Brussels. It is about Dublin.

If Dublin is satisfied with whatever the UK comes up with, the EU is satisfied.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"The backstop is not about Brussels. It is about Dublin.

If Dublin is satisfied with whatever the UK comes up with, the EU is satisfied.

"
Well i hope you are right as it will make sorting it out quicker.Ireland stand to be in even more trouble than the uk if its a no deal.Also not sorting it will lead to exactly what they are disagreeing on about how to sort it.So by not trying to agree on something will lead to exactly what they are trying to avoid.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I'm fairly certain the EU26 will look after Dublin in the event it suffers collateral damage.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"I'm fairly certain the EU26 will look after Dublin in the event it suffers collateral damage."
Im sure it will too just like greece and portugal but they will have the added burden of not having the uk contributions and reduced business with the worlds 5th largest trade nation.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

The two things are not comparable.

Greece's debt crisis was self-inflicted.

The collateral damage to Ireland will be inflicted by the UK.

I'm sure I read somewhere about a new ferry service linking Ireland directly to France.

It's electricity supply might be a problem.

But then again, so too will the UK's - inter connecters across the Channel are part of the single electricity market.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"The two things are not comparable.

Greece's debt crisis was self-inflicted.

The collateral damage to Ireland will be inflicted by the UK.

I'm sure I read somewhere about a new ferry service linking Ireland directly to France.

It's electricity supply might be a problem.

But then again, so too will the UK's - inter connecters across the Channel are part of the single electricity market.

"
Yes as i said im sure they will get it sorted eventually and the bundersbank will lend them money at a favorable intrest rate.

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By *ave 42Man
over a year ago

pontefract

Totally agree about a slaughterhouse at the next GE but not just for the Conservative Party but for all those lying Labour MPs whose constituents overwhelmingly voted to leave , who have done all they can to stop Brexit from happening.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"The two things are not comparable.

Greece's debt crisis was self-inflicted.

The collateral damage to Ireland will be inflicted by the UK.

I'm sure I read somewhere about a new ferry service linking Ireland directly to France.

It's electricity supply might be a problem.

But then again, so too will the UK's - inter connecters across the Channel are part of the single electricity market.

"

I love this argument by EU aplogists, which is basically "The Greeks are lazy, so they deserved it"....

Treuke uber alles, eh?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

The Greek Government cooked the books to meet the criteria for joining the Euro. That's what I mean about self-inflicted. It was a fiddle that backfired.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"The Greek Government cooked the books to meet the criteria for joining the Euro. That's what I mean about self-inflicted. It was a fiddle that backfired.

"

Lol, EU unity in a nutshell. I'm sure it'll all be revealed in Europe - 10 years in turmoil part 2 at 9pm on the BBC on Monday.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The Greek Government cooked the books to meet the criteria for joining the Euro. That's what I mean about self-inflicted. It was a fiddle that backfired.

Lol, EU unity in a nutshell. I'm sure it'll all be revealed in Europe - 10 years in turmoil part 2 at 9pm on the BBC on Monday. "

Is this TV show the final hope for brexiteers? Hoping to find a grain of evidence that Brexit was the right thing to do.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"The Greek Government cooked the books to meet the criteria for joining the Euro. That's what I mean about self-inflicted. It was a fiddle that backfired.

Lol, EU unity in a nutshell. I'm sure it'll all be revealed in Europe - 10 years in turmoil part 2 at 9pm on the BBC on Monday. "

No need to wait until Monday.

Do you not read anything about subjects before you witter on about them?

One of the criteria for joining the Euro was a budget deficit of 3% or below.

The budget deficit of Greece was 8.3 %, so they were ineligible.

They "solved" this problem by hiring one of the big global accountancy firms to hide their spending.

Over time they had to borrow more and more money to keep the illusion going, until it all came crashing down around them.

That's why the situation with Greece is not comparable to what may or may not happen in Ireland if the UK presses the self-destruct button.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

I'd worry more about France, its on fire.

Coming soon: Frexit, and do we really want to be in the EU when that happens?

The neoliberal project and erosion of democracy is crumbling, it seems.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

They may take a step back when they see what a mess the UK is making of it.

And being in or out of the EU won't protect the UK.

Brexiteers keep saying the UK's meltdown will damage its neighbours more.

What makes you think France would be any different?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I'd worry more about France, its on fire.

Coming soon: Frexit, and do we really want to be in the EU when that happens?

The neoliberal project and erosion of democracy is crumbling, it seems. "

Yep, I watched Yanis Varoufakis on BBC Newsnight last night. He said the EU has learned absolutely nothing from Brexit. Brexit should have been a wake up call for the EU to reform and address the democratic deficit, but instead they've not reformed, completely ignored the democratic deficit in the EU and just carried in with the tired old mantra of 'ever closer union'. The EU is like a religion to these people, the dumb cunts can't even see it needs drastic reform and they are running headlong towards its collapse.

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex & Bridgend


"We already have a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

The UK is turning its back on that.

Now you want a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

"Hello, Mr Juncker, I'd like to talk free trade."

"Is your cheque in the post yet?"

Liam Fox and Theresa May have already said many of the existing free trade deals the UK enjoys through membership of the EU with the rest of the world will be rolled over after Brexit. "

Liam Fox admitted last week that of the 40 deals, only one is ready to go (Israel)....

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

As the main problem for the UK to Brexit is Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland main political parties and people are just as divided as the UK is over Brexit, maybe more so with sectarianism thrown into the mix, a stalled dead powershare....

Have we finally got to the point where Northern Ireland is more hassle than its worth to the Union?

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"I'd worry more about France, its on fire.

Coming soon: Frexit, and do we really want to be in the EU when that happens?

The neoliberal project and erosion of democracy is crumbling, it seems.

Yep, I watched Yanis Varoufakis on BBC Newsnight last night. He said the EU has learned absolutely nothing from Brexit. Brexit should have been a wake up call for the EU to reform and address the democratic deficit, but instead they've not reformed, completely ignored the democratic deficit in the EU and just carried in with the tired old mantra of 'ever closer union'. The EU is like a religion to these people, the dumb cunts can't even see it needs drastic reform and they are running headlong towards its collapse. "

They had him on Newsnight?

Watch his interview with Chomsky. If the Euro Group doesn't terrify people, it should.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'd worry more about France, its on fire.

Coming soon: Frexit, and do we really want to be in the EU when that happens?

The neoliberal project and erosion of democracy is crumbling, it seems. "

Many will salivate at the thought of an illiberal far right rising from the ashes of liberalism.Nationalistic utopias will always dystopian futures.Only liberalism is progressive.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"I'd worry more about France, its on fire.

Coming soon: Frexit, and do we really want to be in the EU when that happens?

The neoliberal project and erosion of democracy is crumbling, it seems.

Many will salivate at the thought of an illiberal far right rising from the ashes of liberalism.Nationalistic utopias will always dystopian futures.Only liberalism is progressive."

So an undemocratic neoliberal federalism is progressive?

Democratic socialism is progressive. Liberalism can never be.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Also the thought of supposedly left wing people cheering neoliberalism would be funny if it wasn't so scary.

Blair clearly did his job bringing you round to globalism.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I'd worry more about France, its on fire.

Coming soon: Frexit, and do we really want to be in the EU when that happens?

The neoliberal project and erosion of democracy is crumbling, it seems.

Yep, I watched Yanis Varoufakis on BBC Newsnight last night. He said the EU has learned absolutely nothing from Brexit. Brexit should have been a wake up call for the EU to reform and address the democratic deficit, but instead they've not reformed, completely ignored the democratic deficit in the EU and just carried in with the tired old mantra of 'ever closer union'. The EU is like a religion to these people, the dumb cunts can't even see it needs drastic reform and they are running headlong towards its collapse.

They had him on Newsnight?

Watch his interview with Chomsky. If the Euro Group doesn't terrify people, it should."

Yes they had Yanis on Newsnight, although he was speaking over video link. The BBC had a Pro EU Spanish politician in the studio for balance against Yanis Varoufakis views. No surprise that the Pro Eu Spanish woman was still peddling the 'ever closer union is the way forward' line of thinking while Yanis was saying the EU needs immediate, deep and meaningful reform.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"What went wrong? This was the easiest deal in the world to negotiate. Wasn't it?

No never but it was not impossible if handled correctly

By whom? "
Parliament as a whole.

First the two main parties should have said up a commetee then worked together to have a united policy to take to the EU.Not what May or corbyn wanted as May did not consult and corbyn does not have a clue and just wants window dressing dressing

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"What went wrong? This was the easiest deal in the world to negotiate. Wasn't it?

No never but it was not impossible if handled correctly

By whom? Parliament as a whole.

First the two main parties should have said up a commetee then worked together to have a united policy to take to the EU.Not what May or corbyn wanted as May did not consult and corbyn does not have a clue and just wants window dressing dressing"

I said similar just after the vote and the response on here was shut up you lost, however whilst I agree with you the fact is if it was suggested at all to May on a cross party basis it was never a starter..

She and by definition the Tory party bear full responsibility for how this has proceeded, no one else was even consulted till she lost the vote earlier this month..

And they were ignored..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'd worry more about France, its on fire.

Coming soon: Frexit, and do we really want to be in the EU when that happens?

The neoliberal project and erosion of democracy is crumbling, it seems.

Yep, I watched Yanis Varoufakis on BBC Newsnight last night. He said the EU has learned absolutely nothing from Brexit. Brexit should have been a wake up call for the EU to reform and address the democratic deficit, but instead they've not reformed, completely ignored the democratic deficit in the EU and just carried in with the tired old mantra of 'ever closer union'. The EU is like a religion to these people, the dumb cunts can't even see it needs drastic reform and they are running headlong towards its collapse.

They had him on Newsnight?

Watch his interview with Chomsky. If the Euro Group doesn't terrify people, it should.

Yes they had Yanis on Newsnight, although he was speaking over video link. The BBC had a Pro EU Spanish politician in the studio for balance against Yanis Varoufakis views. No surprise that the Pro Eu Spanish woman was still peddling the 'ever closer union is the way forward' line of thinking while Yanis was saying the EU needs immediate, deep and meaningful reform. "
I note you failed to mention that Yanis also said he was against the idea of brexit.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"Was it we are still on pause and not going anywhere quickly. The whole thing is a joke now.. They are voting which ever way it keeps them there job well until one day when the GE eventually roles around. Their script are getting shorter as they have nothing new to say.

The next GE will be a slaughterhouse for conservatives of their own making.."

I wouldn't put too much money on that prediction, especially if BREXIT is either softened, abandoned or some how turns out to be not as bad as many fear. Don't forget, for many Remainers, Labour's (and Jeremy Corbyn's in particular) lack of effective opposition to BREXIT is seen as complicit and many disolutioned Conservative voters fear Corbyn almost as much as BREXIT. With the total incompetence this Govetment has shown over BREXIT Labour should be 10 to 20 points ahead in the poles but it's actually struggling to consistently even get ahead at all. A Conservative defeat at the next general election is far from certain.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"We already have a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

The UK is turning its back on that.

Now you want a free trade agreement with 30-odd countries in Europe.

"Hello, Mr Juncker, I'd like to talk free trade."

"Is your cheque in the post yet?"

Liam Fox and Theresa May have already said many of the existing free trade deals the UK enjoys through membership of the EU with the rest of the world will be rolled over after Brexit. "

That sounds great but unfortunately in order to simply roleover the existing trade deals we have through the EU with the rest of the world requires not only the consent of the WTO but also the permission of the EU, they are after all the EU's trade deals.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-roll-over-deals-uk-eu-counties-airline-rights-nuclear-safety-a8527731.html

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything."

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

"
exactly my point they could hold us into an agreement for ever and we would have to pay for it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

exactly my point they could hold us into an agreement for ever and we would have to pay for it."

The withdrawal agreement (I believe) sets the “divorce bill” and also payments thru the transition period. Absent any extension, if the backstop kicks in no more payments are made (other than the remaining divorce bill). But once the divorce bill is paid, no more payments. There are no payments being made just because the backstop is in place.

https://fullfact.org/europe/if-we-go-backstop-will-uk-be-making-any-financial-contributions-eu-period/

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

exactly my point they could hold us into an agreement for ever and we would have to pay for it.

The withdrawal agreement (I believe) sets the “divorce bill” and also payments thru the transition period. Absent any extension, if the backstop kicks in no more payments are made (other than the remaining divorce bill). But once the divorce bill is paid, no more payments. There are no payments being made just because the backstop is in place.

https://fullfact.org/europe/if-we-go-backstop-will-uk-be-making-any-financial-contributions-eu-period/

"
The backstop keeps us in the customs union you have to pay to be in that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

exactly my point they could hold us into an agreement for ever and we would have to pay for it.

The withdrawal agreement (I believe) sets the “divorce bill” and also payments thru the transition period. Absent any extension, if the backstop kicks in no more payments are made (other than the remaining divorce bill). But once the divorce bill is paid, no more payments. There are no payments being made just because the backstop is in place.

https://fullfact.org/europe/if-we-go-backstop-will-uk-be-making-any-financial-contributions-eu-period/

The backstop keeps us in the customs union you have to pay to be in that."

Can you provide a link etc to your reasoning for this. Full fact isn’t perfect but it’s something.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

exactly my point they could hold us into an agreement for ever and we would have to pay for it.

The withdrawal agreement (I believe) sets the “divorce bill” and also payments thru the transition period. Absent any extension, if the backstop kicks in no more payments are made (other than the remaining divorce bill). But once the divorce bill is paid, no more payments. There are no payments being made just because the backstop is in place.

https://fullfact.org/europe/if-we-go-backstop-will-uk-be-making-any-financial-contributions-eu-period/

The backstop keeps us in the customs union you have to pay to be in that.

Can you provide a link etc to your reasoning for this. Full fact isn’t perfect but it’s something. "
Perhaps even more worryingly, the EU might seek to protect its own manufacturing industries, increasing costs and prices for UK consumers, where our interests might be diametrically opposed. British consumers will end up paying for the protection of Europe’s industries through the application of EU trade remedy laws, which would apply to the whole customs territory. That this might happen without any UK input into Brussels’ decision-making could be damaging for our economy.This is from Greg Hands a remainer and former trade minister.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

exactly my point they could hold us into an agreement for ever and we would have to pay for it.

The withdrawal agreement (I believe) sets the “divorce bill” and also payments thru the transition period. Absent any extension, if the backstop kicks in no more payments are made (other than the remaining divorce bill). But once the divorce bill is paid, no more payments. There are no payments being made just because the backstop is in place.

https://fullfact.org/europe/if-we-go-backstop-will-uk-be-making-any-financial-contributions-eu-period/

The backstop keeps us in the customs union you have to pay to be in that.

Can you provide a link etc to your reasoning for this. Full fact isn’t perfect but it’s something. Perhaps even more worryingly, the EU might seek to protect its own manufacturing industries, increasing costs and prices for UK consumers, where our interests might be diametrically opposed. British consumers will end up paying for the protection of Europe’s industries through the application of EU trade remedy laws, which would apply to the whole customs territory. That this might happen without any UK input into Brussels’ decision-making could be damaging for our economy.This is from Greg Hands a remainer and former trade minister."

Project fear (am I doing it right?)

But before the thread goes down a different track, can we put to bed if payments continue after the divorce bill is paid off, once the transition period runs out, and when the back stop kicks in. Full facts says no. You disagree. Can you provide a source for this? It feels more “key” than an “the Eu *could* do something bad” statement.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"

The backstop keeps us in the customs union you have to pay to be in that."

I know you pay for Single Market access but I'm not sure you pay to align your goods to set standards in a Customs Union.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

exactly my point they could hold us into an agreement for ever and we would have to pay for it.

The withdrawal agreement (I believe) sets the “divorce bill” and also payments thru the transition period. Absent any extension, if the backstop kicks in no more payments are made (other than the remaining divorce bill). But once the divorce bill is paid, no more payments. There are no payments being made just because the backstop is in place.

https://fullfact.org/europe/if-we-go-backstop-will-uk-be-making-any-financial-contributions-eu-period/

The backstop keeps us in the customs union you have to pay to be in that."

No, we don't. There are no additional fees due if we end up in the backstop.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"I don't think the EU is going to budge one bit and I don't blame them it was some of the British people that wanted to leave. But not mine when the damage is done at least I will not have a guilty conscience.

The current approach from the UK is give me what I want or I am going to jump out of the window.

Its looking like they are going to have to jump then. Well as i said they will be hurting too so i cant see why not, there must be something they can both agree to regarding the backstop.

In 50 odd days?

Took two years to get this far..

What's to say if there is movement by the EU that the hard line Brexiteers then say 'tell you what PM, now we want such and such to support it'..

Can't blame the EU for not trusting the tories.. Yes took 2 years the sticking point is the backstop im sure they can sort something out cant blame anyone for not wanting what they are offering.Let me put it this way would you sign a contract with an electric or gas supplier that you, your children,grandchildren could not get out of unless you both agree to.I dont think anyone is that stupid so there must be another way its not impossible.

What if they were the only suppliers and that was the only option they gave ? Happy to brave the cold ?

Or how about you both have the option to exit? Happy to risk being cut off later ?Thats the problem we dont,if we could without their say so or visa versa the deal would be signed by now but as long as we cant and they will still be getting money because we cant there is no incentive for them to do anything.

The EU doesn't get money from the UK if the backstop comes into effect. That's one of the reasons why the EU doesn't actually want to see the backstop ever implemented.

exactly my point they could hold us into an agreement for ever and we would have to pay for it.

The withdrawal agreement (I believe) sets the “divorce bill” and also payments thru the transition period. Absent any extension, if the backstop kicks in no more payments are made (other than the remaining divorce bill). But once the divorce bill is paid, no more payments. There are no payments being made just because the backstop is in place.

https://fullfact.org/europe/if-we-go-backstop-will-uk-be-making-any-financial-contributions-eu-period/

The backstop keeps us in the customs union you have to pay to be in that.

Can you provide a link etc to your reasoning for this. Full fact isn’t perfect but it’s something. Perhaps even more worryingly, the EU might seek to protect its own manufacturing industries, increasing costs and prices for UK consumers, where our interests might be diametrically opposed. British consumers will end up paying for the protection of Europe’s industries through the application of EU trade remedy laws, which would apply to the whole customs territory. That this might happen without any UK input into Brussels’ decision-making could be damaging for our economy.This is from Greg Hands a remainer and former trade minister."

Nicely side stepped but you'd come across as a lot more credible if you just admitted that on this issue (payments to the EU for Customs Union or backstop) you got it totally wrong. We absolutely won't have to pay any more money to the EU if we end up in the backstop.

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