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"Ship of Fools" If the Tories had spent less time fighting each other and more time on governing, we wouldn't be in the mire. Theyre the most mendacious, incompetent shower that the country has ever seen. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail "  I was think as thinking the same.. | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. " That the Conservative party still appear in front of Labour regularly in the polls tells you how awful and incompetent the opposition has been throughout the whole Brexit process under the leadership of Corbyn. | |||
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"Does anyone think the conservative party, including their leaders, have been great, with their brexit handling? Almost 3 years after the referendum the party has still not agreed what it wants. Article 50 was triggered, without May getting her party beforehand to agree to it. May delayed the commons vote for a month over Christmas, as it was a likely lose result and then still lost, when it was held later in January. It thus left available just a few days before March 29th, to arrange/agree anything different, pass huge amounts of essential legislation in parliament as well as ensure the country is governed properly. Irrespective of your desired brexit result, are there any here who view the conservative party of late to be great?" All parties have handled brexit badly as brexit is NOT and never was a perty issue,the whole of parliament is a disgrace | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail " Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. " What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig" . So did Labour have a better plan ? | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig. So did Labour have a better plan ? " Was it labour that started his shit storm by holding a badly worded referendum, that was advisory only, then immediately taking the result as mandatory even though they had no idea what they were going to do, triggering A50 while they still had no plan, and two years later still having no plan? Fact is that nobody has any plan that can make the land-of-milk-and-honey brexit work, but it's squarely and solely the tories that got us into the mess in the first place. | |||
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"Very hard to understand what UK really want " Is it? Thought parliament made it pretty clear the other night they want to get rid of the backstop. | |||
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"Very hard to understand what UK really want " What do we want? Nobody knows ! When do we want it ! March 29th! | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig. So did Labour have a better plan ? " It would not have happened under Labour, pretty simple really.. This is down to the Tories, they called it to hush their euro sceptics and were too stupid to look at the bigger picture.. They fucked it good and proper and its still a dogs breakfast so now there is a false peace in their party as her deal which was totally rejected but they think cos she says it's OK I will just change the part that took nigh on two years to sort and the EU will roll over or they will abandon Eire.. The what if, whataboutery, maybe Labour should do x, y or z is classic deflection in case it all goes tits up.. fucks sake had it all been roses and a compliant EU rolling over the Tories would own it completely.. It's a Tory mess.. | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig" I never said it wasn't the Conservatives own making. The OP's thread is questioning whether they have been great. I'd say in comparison to the opposition, they have been better than them is all, not that they have been great. I'd much side with what Sara J wrote that, "it's toxic, that Labour do not want to get their hands dirty with it". (Besides scrutiny, the deal didn't pass too as there's Libs, SNP, Plaid Cymru, Greens and Independents who want remain and will never vote for a deal) | |||
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"Is that maybe 1 person who sort of thinks the conservatives have been doing pretty well? "Thank you for the maybe.  | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig. So did Labour have a better plan ? " They did and do | |||
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"Labour doesn't want to touch this with a barge pole for three reasons: a) It's own six tests are impossible for any Brexit-supporting government to meet b) It's toxic c) The Conservative Party has claimed ownership from day one and refuses to let go Better to keep your hands clean and let it destroy the Conservative Party, than become infected by it yourself. " Yes have to hope it backfires as who wants a bunch of two faced whimps running the country | |||
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"The Tories have been crap throughout. May has only engaged within theTory Party & been driven by some minority loonies. This has notbeen about getting the best deal for Britain, it is only about stopping the Tories breaking up. May has been weak and insular from day 1. We need another election to remove them from power. Would anyone else be better, in all probability, yes! " Sadly no party is at present fit to lead the country | |||
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"I watched an interview with Dominic Raab. Channel 4, I think. The Government strategy relies on the EU blinking at the 11th hour and giving the UK what it wants. It's truly astonishing. At every turn of the wheel, the Conservative Party's Brexit plan has been based on things that are not in their control to deliver. First it was the assumption there was no need to plan for No Deal because the EU would give Britain whatever it wanted. Now it is the belief that third parties will change their behaviour to suit British interests. It beggars belief. The only thing that has ever been in the control of the UK Government to deliver is a No Deal Brexit. Yet it is the one thing they consistently refused to plan for. Instead, their planning continues to be based on things not in their control to deliver. I can hardly find the words. " Whatever strategy is employed in negotiation, a deal is there to be examined. The text is either good or bad. We can only assume at what comes next. I cannot however, understand Labours position again that no deal should be taken off the table, reason being due it's preparation costing £2bn (or something). Either it is responsible to make plans or not. If plans were not made for it being voted down, there would be more shouts of irresponsibility that preparation were not done. You can't have it both ways. | |||
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" Whatever strategy is employed in negotiation, a deal is there to be examined. The text is either good or bad. We can only assume at what comes next. I cannot however, understand Labours position again that no deal should be taken off the table, reason being due it's preparation costing £2bn (or something). Either it is responsible to make plans or not. If plans were not made for it being voted down, there would be more shouts of irresponsibility that preparation were not done. You can't have it both ways. " Labour is in opposition, so the pressure to be decisive is not anything like being in power. And it avoids a political conundrum - the party represents both the strongest pro-EU constituencies and the most anti-EU constituencies. | |||
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" Whatever strategy is employed in negotiation, a deal is there to be examined. The text is either good or bad. We can only assume at what comes next. I cannot however, understand Labours position again that no deal should be taken off the table, reason being due it's preparation costing £2bn (or something). Either it is responsible to make plans or not. If plans were not made for it being voted down, there would be more shouts of irresponsibility that preparation were not done. You can't have it both ways. Labour is in opposition, so the pressure to be decisive is not anything like being in power. And it avoids a political conundrum - the party represents both the strongest pro-EU constituencies and the most anti-EU constituencies. " I take it you took that from a Labour handbook? The Con's have the same issue, it still doesn't mean spending should be opposed, even if a deal is wanted (or not wanted, as is Labours position). | |||
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"I watched an interview with Dominic Raab. Channel 4, I think. The Government strategy relies on the EU blinking at the 11th hour and giving the UK what it wants. It's truly astonishing. At every turn of the wheel, the Conservative Party's Brexit plan has been based on things that are not in their control to deliver. First it was the assumption there was no need to plan for No Deal because the EU would give Britain whatever it wanted. Now it is the belief that third parties will change their behaviour to suit British interests. It beggars belief. The only thing that has ever been in the control of the UK Government to deliver is a No Deal Brexit. Yet it is the one thing they consistently refused to plan for. Instead, their planning continues to be based on things not in their control to deliver. I can hardly find the words. " I can: theyre shysters, chancers and spivs who shouldnt be allowed anywhere near anything sharp | |||
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" Whatever strategy is employed in negotiation, a deal is there to be examined. The text is either good or bad. We can only assume at what comes next. I cannot however, understand Labours position again that no deal should be taken off the table, reason being due it's preparation costing £2bn (or something). Either it is responsible to make plans or not. If plans were not made for it being voted down, there would be more shouts of irresponsibility that preparation were not done. You can't have it both ways. Labour is in opposition, so the pressure to be decisive is not anything like being in power. And it avoids a political conundrum - the party represents both the strongest pro-EU constituencies and the most anti-EU constituencies. I take it you took that from a Labour handbook? The Con's have the same issue, it still doesn't mean spending should be opposed, even if a deal is wanted (or not wanted, as is Labours position)." This is a Tory gig. Labour shouldnt be complicit in this clusterfuck | |||
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" Whatever strategy is employed in negotiation, a deal is there to be examined. The text is either good or bad. We can only assume at what comes next. I cannot however, understand Labours position again that no deal should be taken off the table, reason being due it's preparation costing £2bn (or something). Either it is responsible to make plans or not. If plans were not made for it being voted down, there would be more shouts of irresponsibility that preparation were not done. You can't have it both ways. Labour is in opposition, so the pressure to be decisive is not anything like being in power. And it avoids a political conundrum - the party represents both the strongest pro-EU constituencies and the most anti-EU constituencies. I take it you took that from a Labour handbook? The Con's have the same issue, it still doesn't mean spending should be opposed, even if a deal is wanted (or not wanted, as is Labours position). This is a Tory gig. Labour shouldnt be complicit in this clusterfuck" 
It almost starts one thinking that other parties are being drafted in, now that it's clearer that it's a total clusterf$ck, and it could help to deflect attention away from the conservatives.
Brexit has been 100% conservative shite from start to finish. It's not the responsibility of other parties to have a solution for every additional piece of shit that's added to the pile.
I've never seen such clearly incompetent Ministers in government, that have come/gone since the referendum. I guess when others look bad, May perhaps doesn't feel so out of her depth. | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig. So did Labour have a better plan ? Was it labour that started his shit storm by holding a badly worded referendum, that was advisory only, then immediately taking the result as mandatory even though they had no idea what they were going to do, triggering A50 while they still had no plan, and two years later still having no plan? Fact is that nobody has any plan that can make the land-of-milk-and-honey brexit work, but it's squarely and solely the tories that got us into the mess in the first place." I agree that the Tories hold most of the blame for this whole BREXIT disaster but Labour to has to take some responsibility for not properly opposing. Corbyn is at best seen as indifferent on BREXIT and probably actually complicit. Centy makes a very good point. We all agree that the Tories have total messed up with this BREXIT but why isn't Labour doing better in the poles? The answer is simple, people don't trust them much more than the Tories on BREXIT and a lot of people trust them a lot less than the Tories on pretty much everything else. | |||
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"Labour doesn't want to touch this with a barge pole for three reasons: a) It's own six tests are impossible for any Brexit-supporting government to meet b) It's toxic c) The Conservative Party has claimed ownership from day one and refuses to let go Better to keep your hands clean and let it destroy the Conservative Party, than become infected by it yourself. " Better for who? The country or the Labour Party? | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig. So did Labour have a better plan ? They did and do "Do they? What is it then? As far as I can see Labour's plan is the same as TM's plan except that instead of probably being in a Customs Union indefinitely we'd definitely be in a Customs Union indefinitely. | |||
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"The Tories have been crap throughout. May has only engaged within theTory Party & been driven by some minority loonies. This has notbeen about getting the best deal for Britain, it is only about stopping the Tories breaking up. May has been weak and insular from day 1. We need another election to remove them from power. Would anyone else be better, in all probability, yes! " I honestly don't think it would have made any real difference to the end result who ever had been running the BREXIT show. To believe otherwise is to fall into the often said BREXIT response that the problem with BREXIT is that it's been handled badly and if only someone else had been running things it would all be so much better. NO! NO! NO!. The problem with BREXIT is not the people running it; the problem with BREXIT is... BREXIT. | |||
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" Whatever strategy is employed in negotiation, a deal is there to be examined. The text is either good or bad. We can only assume at what comes next. I cannot however, understand Labours position again that no deal should be taken off the table, reason being due it's preparation costing £2bn (or something). Either it is responsible to make plans or not. If plans were not made for it being voted down, there would be more shouts of irresponsibility that preparation were not done. You can't have it both ways. Labour is in opposition, so the pressure to be decisive is not anything like being in power. And it avoids a political conundrum - the party represents both the strongest pro-EU constituencies and the most anti-EU constituencies. I take it you took that from a Labour handbook? The Con's have the same issue, it still doesn't mean spending should be opposed, even if a deal is wanted (or not wanted, as is Labours position). This is a Tory gig. Labour shouldnt be complicit in this clusterfuck" But, by failing to effectively oppose, they are being seen as complicit; and in my opinion rightly so. | |||
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" To get the deal on the table within time frame that is comprehensive enough but falls short on three issues: worker rights, environmental issues and the backstop isn't that much of a failing - it's politics. To ransom no talks unless no deal is struck off is more politicking. From what I can tell, what was set out to happen has been achieved. May has missed one deadline in December. If this is the only deadline missed, then a few weeks hasn't hurt debate much - the bulk is done so all that needs to be discussed are those amendments. In my view what has been seen from the opposition is sheer absurdity. £bn's in spending (lending) plans, forming a Brexit plan that will appease Unions, party members and voters who are at polar opposites - inconsistency from it's MP's when questioned on it. Labour haven't been able to give any clarity at all and said from the outset they would vote down any deal the Conservatives brought back. If we were to be under a Labour Government right now, A50 would have been triggered the day after the referendum, there would have been reshuffle on reshuffle due to a 100 MP's resigning, leaving the party or being sacked. There would be utter confusion in whether all options were on the table (remaining), if they were honouring the vote, leaving the single market or will continue to pay into a customs union. If Trident is a good thing for jobs or if it is one of Corbyns longstanding red lines. Not least if Corbyn would repatriate N. Ireland in his negotiations, as Corbyn believes in the Irish Union. I wonder if he was pushed he would fold on Gibraltar too. What bit of "the Conservatives own this shit shower" escaped your notice. The reason the deal didnt get through was because the Tories were too bust kicking lumps out of each other....it's their gig. So did Labour have a better plan ? " That's just whataboutary and totally irrelevant. The Conservatives are in power and it's totally their fuck up. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. " Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. | |||
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" Whatever strategy is employed in negotiation, a deal is there to be examined. The text is either good or bad. We can only assume at what comes next. I cannot however, understand Labours position again that no deal should be taken off the table, reason being due it's preparation costing £2bn (or something). Either it is responsible to make plans or not. If plans were not made for it being voted down, there would be more shouts of irresponsibility that preparation were not done. You can't have it both ways. Labour is in opposition, so the pressure to be decisive is not anything like being in power. And it avoids a political conundrum - the party represents both the strongest pro-EU constituencies and the most anti-EU constituencies. I take it you took that from a Labour handbook? The Con's have the same issue, it still doesn't mean spending should be opposed, even if a deal is wanted (or not wanted, as is Labours position). This is a Tory gig. Labour shouldnt be complicit in this clusterfuck But, by failing to effectively oppose, they are being seen as complicit; and in my opinion rightly so." And by "failing to oppose" you mean become the party of remain and enjoy the same success as that other party of remain, the Liberal democrats. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively." Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote?" I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote?" There's no limit to the idiocy of the electorate. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively." Getting a plan from Labour has been like licking a greased eel. A customs agreement, a customs union, a customs partnership, a customs arrangement, a customs zone along with similar language for the single market. They didn't even understand the fisheries policy which is why they lost Scottish seats. Someone above pointed out they are in opposition so need no plan, but when no clarity is gained, there should be more to public office than obstructing. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Getting a plan from Labour has been like licking a greased eel. A customs agreement, a customs union, a customs partnership, a customs arrangement, a customs zone along with similar language for the single market. They didn't even understand the fisheries policy which is why they lost Scottish seats. Someone above pointed out they are in opposition so need no plan, but when no clarity is gained, there should be more to public office than obstructing. " Try telling that to the moronic ERG types and the flatearther DUP who have done nothing but block and tell the world what they dont want. That nasty cabal will be the ruination of this country. Plastic toffs and reactionary fundamentalists | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Getting a plan from Labour has been like licking a greased eel. A customs agreement, a customs union, a customs partnership, a customs arrangement, a customs zone along with similar language for the single market. They didn't even understand the fisheries policy which is why they lost Scottish seats. Someone above pointed out they are in opposition so need no plan, but when no clarity is gained, there should be more to public office than obstructing. " No it hasn't. It's consistently been the same plan put forward by the party membership. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Getting a plan from Labour has been like licking a greased eel. A customs agreement, a customs union, a customs partnership, a customs arrangement, a customs zone along with similar language for the single market. They didn't even understand the fisheries policy which is why they lost Scottish seats. Someone above pointed out they are in opposition so need no plan, but when no clarity is gained, there should be more to public office than obstructing. Try telling that to the moronic ERG types and the flatearther DUP who have done nothing but block and tell the world what they dont want. That nasty cabal will be the ruination of this country. Plastic toffs and reactionary fundamentalists" Actually Brexiteers in the ERG have been entirely consistent in telling the government what they wanted all along in relation to Ireland and that is the maximum facilitation plan for the border (or max fac for short). David Davis, Steve Baker and Boris Johnson told Theresa May at the infamous chequers meeting this was the way for the UK to go and they were backed up by people like Sajid Javid and Gavin Williamson. Theresa May didn't listen and went with her Chequers plan instead. This is why David Davis, Steve Baker and Boris Johnson resigned in the days after Chequers. It's only become clear to Theresa May now that her chequers plan with the backstop won't fly after her historically big defeat in the meaningfull vote on her chequers deal in the commons. Max fac has now been rebranded as the Malthouse compromise the only way Theresa May can carry the support of the ERG wing of her party is to go with it, to be honest it should have been clear to her the day David Davis, Steve Baker and Boris Johnson resigned. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon...." Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. " Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. " “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. " But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society." Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame." Not at all, we are enabling meaningful societal changes to happen. I want to see more funding of the health service, not run by private companies (Not possible in the EU because of competition regs - this is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service). I'd like to see renationalisation of utilities instead of them making vast profits exported to other countries, profits, if any should be ploughed back into the system. Again, not possible under EU regs. As mentioned, I also have wider concerns about the erosion of democracy in neoliberalist projects. I'm absolutely not a nationalist, but painting all Brexiteers as quasi fascists does seem to suit the agenda of some. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame. Not at all, we are enabling meaningful societal changes to happen. I want to see more funding of the health service, not run by private companies (Not possible in the EU because of competition regs - this is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service). I'd like to see renationalisation of utilities instead of them making vast profits exported to other countries, profits, if any should be ploughed back into the system. Again, not possible under EU regs. As mentioned, I also have wider concerns about the erosion of democracy in neoliberalist projects. I'm absolutely not a nationalist, but painting all Brexiteers as quasi fascists does seem to suit the agenda of some." you may well not be a nationalist but brexit is about nationalism. It's all about taking back our borders keeping out immigrants and sovereignty.Removing the EU flag and raising the Union Jack. Come march 29th the flag wavers will be everywhere to say !.To say it's nothing to do with nationalism is blatantly no true. It's convenient for some to portray it as anything but nationalism,because of the obvious lessons from history. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame. Not at all, we are enabling meaningful societal changes to happen. I want to see more funding of the health service, not run by private companies (Not possible in the EU because of competition regs - this is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service). I'd like to see renationalisation of utilities instead of them making vast profits exported to other countries, profits, if any should be ploughed back into the system. Again, not possible under EU regs. As mentioned, I also have wider concerns about the erosion of democracy in neoliberalist projects. I'm absolutely not a nationalist, but painting all Brexiteers as quasi fascists does seem to suit the agenda of some." There are so many untrue statements here I hardly know where to begin. The EU won’t allow the UK to invest in the NHS unless its private companies? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of) The EU does not allow state-owned industry? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of, unless it is industry owned by foreign states, which it loves) | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame. Not at all, we are enabling meaningful societal changes to happen. I want to see more funding of the health service, not run by private companies (Not possible in the EU because of competition regs - this is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service). I'd like to see renationalisation of utilities instead of them making vast profits exported to other countries, profits, if any should be ploughed back into the system. Again, not possible under EU regs. As mentioned, I also have wider concerns about the erosion of democracy in neoliberalist projects. I'm absolutely not a nationalist, but painting all Brexiteers as quasi fascists does seem to suit the agenda of some. There are so many untrue statements here I hardly know where to begin. The EU won’t allow the UK to invest in the NHS unless its private companies? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of) The EU does not allow state-owned industry? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of, unless it is industry owned by foreign states, which it loves) " Actually both of those things are ideologies held by both the Tories and the EU, which is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service. Renationalisation of utilities and the railways would also go against EU regs as they view them as state monopolies. The Tories policies (if not always their rhetoric) align very well with the EU. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame. Not at all, we are enabling meaningful societal changes to happen. I want to see more funding of the health service, not run by private companies (Not possible in the EU because of competition regs - this is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service). I'd like to see renationalisation of utilities instead of them making vast profits exported to other countries, profits, if any should be ploughed back into the system. Again, not possible under EU regs. As mentioned, I also have wider concerns about the erosion of democracy in neoliberalist projects. I'm absolutely not a nationalist, but painting all Brexiteers as quasi fascists does seem to suit the agenda of some. There are so many untrue statements here I hardly know where to begin. The EU won’t allow the UK to invest in the NHS unless its private companies? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of) The EU does not allow state-owned industry? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of, unless it is industry owned by foreign states, which it loves) Actually both of those things are ideologies held by both the Tories and the EU, which is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service. Renationalisation of utilities and the railways would also go against EU regs as they view them as state monopolies. The Tories policies (if not always their rhetoric) align very well with the EU. " Would you please advise where you get your information on "France is having to sell off its health services "? I have searched in English and French but found no information. Merci d'avance! | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame. Not at all, we are enabling meaningful societal changes to happen. I want to see more funding of the health service, not run by private companies (Not possible in the EU because of competition regs - this is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service). I'd like to see renationalisation of utilities instead of them making vast profits exported to other countries, profits, if any should be ploughed back into the system. Again, not possible under EU regs. As mentioned, I also have wider concerns about the erosion of democracy in neoliberalist projects. I'm absolutely not a nationalist, but painting all Brexiteers as quasi fascists does seem to suit the agenda of some. There are so many untrue statements here I hardly know where to begin. The EU won’t allow the UK to invest in the NHS unless its private companies? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of) The EU does not allow state-owned industry? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of, unless it is industry owned by foreign states, which it loves) Actually both of those things are ideologies held by both the Tories and the EU, which is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service. Renationalisation of utilities and the railways would also go against EU regs as they view them as state monopolies. The Tories policies (if not always their rhetoric) align very well with the EU. Would you please advise where you get your information on "France is having to sell off its health services "? I have searched in English and French but found no information. Merci d'avance!" Not sure about the French Health Service but SNCF, the state run railway operator, has been told by the EU to allow "open access" to other operators. | |||
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"The left leaning high income tax, high spending highly regulated mixed economy of the post war years to 1979 brought us free education for all with maintenance grants for the children of poor and normal working and lower middle class parents so all could fully attain their educational potential, virtually full employment with high enough wages that a single income was enough for most households to be able to afford to service a mortgage, run a car and have a family holiday every year on a single income, then on retirement have a good state pensions at 60 for women and 65 for men, a social security system that provided for all unemployed and ensured that for the first 6 months of unemployment there was little hardship suffered (including mortgage payments), free medical, dental, opthalmic and hearing services on the NHS and the greatest increase in public health, living standards and live expectancy in the history of Great Britain. The policies that made the system work were twofold. Government used import duties to stop businesses flooding the market with cheap imports and transferring jobs to low wage economies to increase profits, and currency laws to stop businesses transferring untaxed profits out of the country. Then we got Thatcher who started to undo everything above. Now after 40 years of ever more right wing 'pro business' anti big government policies we have returned the country to the state it was in in the 1030's. where we need soup kitchens and food charity to stop families from starving, growing poverty and homelessness with many former service personnel sleeping rough and freezing to death on our streets, home ownership on the decline, life expectancy falling, public health falling, and our last bastions of post war hope, health and education being privatised as the super rich carpet baggers live it up and feast on the carcase of an education, health and social security system that once was the envy of the world. But according to many here (and in the country at large) the greatest calamity that could befall the country is a JC led Labour government who would be a disaster. What a crock! The only people JC would be a disaster for are the tax-dodging greedy fuckers who will never be anything other than tax-dodging greedy fuckers!" I agree that a healthy dose of social equality and a more targeted approach to taxation is probably a good thing - and long overdue, but I am not sure that your rose tinted vision of the post war years is any less fanciful than Brexiters memories of the same period. It’s just that your glasses are tinted a different colour to theirs lol. The U.K. will not vote in a Party that has radical policies - left, or right and proof of that is Jeremy Corbyn polling at a time when he and his Party should have consigned Theresa May to the history books by now. Labour will rise again and they will govern again. They will increase taxation and they will spend more on tackling the issues that should be important to all of us - NHS, schools, policing, homelessness and wealth disparity. All of these things are what is needed but it won’t be with Jeremy Corbyn at the helm. Until and unless the more radical elements within the Labour Party accept that they need to compromise, Labour will remain in Opposition. | |||
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"The left leaning high income tax, high spending highly regulated mixed economy of the post war years to 1979 brought us free education for all with maintenance grants for the children of poor and normal working and lower middle class parents so all could fully attain their educational potential, virtually full employment with high enough wages that a single income was enough for most households to be able to afford to service a mortgage, run a car and have a family holiday every year on a single income, then on retirement have a good state pensions at 60 for women and 65 for men, a social security system that provided for all unemployed and ensured that for the first 6 months of unemployment there was little hardship suffered (including mortgage payments), free medical, dental, opthalmic and hearing services on the NHS and the greatest increase in public health, living standards and live expectancy in the history of Great Britain. The policies that made the system work were twofold. Government used import duties to stop businesses flooding the market with cheap imports and transferring jobs to low wage economies to increase profits, and currency laws to stop businesses transferring untaxed profits out of the country. Then we got Thatcher who started to undo everything above. Now after 40 years of ever more right wing 'pro business' anti big government policies we have returned the country to the state it was in in the 1030's. where we need soup kitchens and food charity to stop families from starving, growing poverty and homelessness with many former service personnel sleeping rough and freezing to death on our streets, home ownership on the decline, life expectancy falling, public health falling, and our last bastions of post war hope, health and education being privatised as the super rich carpet baggers live it up and feast on the carcase of an education, health and social security system that once was the envy of the world. But according to many here (and in the country at large) the greatest calamity that could befall the country is a JC led Labour government who would be a disaster. What a crock! The only people JC would be a disaster for are the tax-dodging greedy fuckers who will never be anything other than tax-dodging greedy fuckers! I agree that a healthy dose of social equality and a more targeted approach to taxation is probably a good thing - and long overdue, but I am not sure that your rose tinted vision of the post war years is any less fanciful than Brexiters memories of the same period. It’s just that your glasses are tinted a different colour to theirs lol. The U.K. will not vote in a Party that has radical policies - left, or right and proof of that is Jeremy Corbyn polling at a time when he and his Party should have consigned Theresa May to the history books by now. Labour will rise again and they will govern again. They will increase taxation and they will spend more on tackling the issues that should be important to all of us - NHS, schools, policing, homelessness and wealth disparity. All of these things are what is needed but it won’t be with Jeremy Corbyn at the helm. Until and unless the more radical elements within the Labour Party accept that they need to compromise, Labour will remain in Opposition." Would like to disagree with you and am most upset that I cannot. Labour will not win unless it moderates itself and rids itself of the cloud of Momentum. | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Getting a plan from Labour has been like licking a greased eel. A customs agreement, a customs union, a customs partnership, a customs arrangement, a customs zone along with similar language for the single market. They didn't even understand the fisheries policy which is why they lost Scottish seats. Someone above pointed out they are in opposition so need no plan, but when no clarity is gained, there should be more to public office than obstructing. Try telling that to the moronic ERG types and the flatearther DUP who have done nothing but block and tell the world what they dont want. That nasty cabal will be the ruination of this country. Plastic toffs and reactionary fundamentalists" Getting a direct answer from Mr Barry Gardiner, Ms Dianne Abbott, Ms Rebecca Long Bailey, Mr Richard Burgon or whoever else I don't know in the shaddow cab. would be a miracle not seen before 2020. Us leaving with no deal won't be the result of the ERG or DUP. It will be the result of 256 Labour MP's wanting "A customs agreement, a customs union, a customs partnership, a customs arrangement, a customs zone along with similar language for the single market". | |||
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"No, it will be because Mrs May got greedy in 2017 and chucked away a majority of 17. The DUP would still have been nobodies on the back benches." She probably needed to know the 52% actually wanted to leave. Instead Labour used a national mandate and avoided the Brexit debate completely. | |||
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"Hold on a minute! Brexit means Brexit. What else could it possibly mean?" Probably likes it hard. | |||
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"Funny how all the woes visited on us by Tories are the fault of Labour and all the boons we get during Labour years in power are the result of Conservative policies and values... Anything sound a 'little' wrong or out of kilter with the above to anyone but me? Because it sounds like total right-wing bullshit propaganda to me!" The media says it so it's got to be true  | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame. Not at all, we are enabling meaningful societal changes to happen. I want to see more funding of the health service, not run by private companies (Not possible in the EU because of competition regs - this is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service). I'd like to see renationalisation of utilities instead of them making vast profits exported to other countries, profits, if any should be ploughed back into the system. Again, not possible under EU regs. As mentioned, I also have wider concerns about the erosion of democracy in neoliberalist projects. I'm absolutely not a nationalist, but painting all Brexiteers as quasi fascists does seem to suit the agenda of some. There are so many untrue statements here I hardly know where to begin. The EU won’t allow the UK to invest in the NHS unless its private companies? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of) The EU does not allow state-owned industry? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of, unless it is industry owned by foreign states, which it loves) Actually both of those things are ideologies held by both the Tories and the EU, which is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service. Renationalisation of utilities and the railways would also go against EU regs as they view them as state monopolies. The Tories policies (if not always their rhetoric) align very well with the EU. Would you please advise where you get your information on "France is having to sell off its health services "? I have searched in English and French but found no information. Merci d'avance!" https://corporateeurope.org/power-lobbies/2017/06/creeping-privatisation-healthcare | |||
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"That was like reading a column from the daily mail Labour have been dismal in their handling of anything in recent years. The Torys are by no means great, but they have by no means had it easy either. For Corbyn to not meet with May to discuss Brexit talks, I think people realised it was due to him not knowing what their position was, as even the SNP was quick to rebuke any non cooperation and take up the offer. Labour's position on Brexit hasn't changed. It's as voted for by the members. Labour is as split as the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn knows they cannot win election without their leave voting heartlands, and although there have been hiccups, he seems to be keeping the party together quite effectively. Must have been galling to see the weekend opinion polls then. Especially the one that gave the Conservatives an increased 7 point lead over a falling Labour vote? I'll care more in the run up to a General election. I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour, the electoral landscape is completely changed since the Lib Dems collapsed. Still, according to the polls in the last election, the Tories were to win by a landslide. The independent have ramped up their Corbyn smearing, I wonder if they think there's an election on the Horizon.... Who knows, I’d love to predict the future. If you’re so confident of a Labour victory you should have a bet, the bookies are offering even money. Firstly, I'm amazed you read my post and managed to take "confident of a Labour victory" from what I wrote. Secondly, why would I bet on it? I don't want personal financial gain from a victory, I want societal change. “I'm under no illusion that it'll be easy for Labour” this confused me. We all want different things from life, good on you for putting your beliefs before financial gain. I’m a selfish person, i do what’s best for me. But things that improve society as a whole do benefit me, because I'm part of society. Brexiters are walking away from the world . Isolationists and inward looking people are only concerned by their immediate community rather than the greater global society.Britain first everyone else second. Brexit will move from Brits first to English first and you'll only have yourselves to blame. Not at all, we are enabling meaningful societal changes to happen. I want to see more funding of the health service, not run by private companies (Not possible in the EU because of competition regs - this is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service). I'd like to see renationalisation of utilities instead of them making vast profits exported to other countries, profits, if any should be ploughed back into the system. Again, not possible under EU regs. As mentioned, I also have wider concerns about the erosion of democracy in neoliberalist projects. I'm absolutely not a nationalist, but painting all Brexiteers as quasi fascists does seem to suit the agenda of some. There are so many untrue statements here I hardly know where to begin. The EU won’t allow the UK to invest in the NHS unless its private companies? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of) The EU does not allow state-owned industry? False. (That’s the Tory Party ideology you are thinking of, unless it is industry owned by foreign states, which it loves) Actually both of those things are ideologies held by both the Tories and the EU, which is why France is having to sell off parts of it's health service. Renationalisation of utilities and the railways would also go against EU regs as they view them as state monopolies. The Tories policies (if not always their rhetoric) align very well with the EU. Would you please advise where you get your information on "France is having to sell off its health services "? I have searched in English and French but found no information. Merci d'avance! https://corporateeurope.org/power-lobbies/2017/06/creeping-privatisation-healthcare" Thank you - wow a long read but still I failed to find any mention of France? So I read it again and still no joy! I acknowledge several other EU members and the USA too but not France- can you guide me to the specific section please? France have a scheme whereby the state pay 70% and the individual pays 30% of the cost. The latter is funded by a private insurance company or out of cash. So the system is part privatised- infact it "sells " its services to the NHS in some instances! | |||
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