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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned." Astute  | |||
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"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. " Cameron didn't go and have a discussion. He went and made demands because we are special and important. He got nothing because he behaved like a dick to play to his party. He got nothing. We are doing exactly the same thing again. | |||
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"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. Cameron didn't go and have a discussion. He went and made demands because we are special and important. He got nothing because he behaved like a dick to play to his party. He got nothing. i think the eu has proved you cant have discussions with them as barnier and co are little dictators. We are doing exactly the same thing again." | |||
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"No issue with all the no deal preparations, but they should have been done from day 1. The EU has never believed the UK would walk away, which is why they have had the upper hand in negotiations. In the same way they never believed the UK would vote leave when Cameron sought some commitments to change prior to the referendum and have absolutely nothing. I would have the vote in parliament, and if it fails cease all negotiations with EU and do everything in my power to have things ready for 29 March on no deal basis." If you think all preparations for a no deal can be in place in 100 days, then you clearly haven't the first idea about what will be required | |||
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"No issue with all the no deal preparations, but they should have been done from day 1. The EU has never believed the UK would walk away, which is why they have had the upper hand in negotiations. In the same way they never believed the UK would vote leave when Cameron sought some commitments to change prior to the referendum and have absolutely nothing. I would have the vote in parliament, and if it fails cease all negotiations with EU and do everything in my power to have things ready for 29 March on no deal basis. If you think all preparations for a no deal can be in place in 100 days, then you clearly haven't the first idea about what will be required" I agree which is why is should have been the plan from day 1. The strategic mistake made by the UK govt was insisting it needed a deal to leave thereby negating any negotiating leverage. The mandate was clear. Had the UK made appropriate plans and held its nerve the EU would have agreed to a fundamentally different compromise. We now are running around like headless chickens but in reality we have no option now. We should state we are not prepared to have any form of hard Irish border, which the Irish govt should reiterate, that we will have tariff free and frictionless trade for as long as it's reciprocated and hold our nerve. EU businesses will want what we want. It is the political motivations of the EU who fear a positive UK exit that is preventing an economic solution which is good for every one. | |||
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"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. " The thing is though the EU actually thought they had given a lot of ground to Cameron and they thought they had given him enough concessions to keep us sweet. The British people didn't see it like that, they thought Cameron got breadcrumbs and that the EU was taking the piss with what they 'offered'. The British people and the EU are miles apart on their thinking, we are simply not compatible with them so it really is best for us to cut ties with them now and leave. | |||
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"No issue with all the no deal preparations, but they should have been done from day 1. The EU has never believed the UK would walk away, which is why they have had the upper hand in negotiations. In the same way they never believed the UK would vote leave when Cameron sought some commitments to change prior to the referendum and have absolutely nothing. I would have the vote in parliament, and if it fails cease all negotiations with EU and do everything in my power to have things ready for 29 March on no deal basis. If you think all preparations for a no deal can be in place in 100 days, then you clearly haven't the first idea about what will be required I agree which is why is should have been the plan from day 1. The strategic mistake made by the UK govt was insisting it needed a deal to leave thereby negating any negotiating leverage. The mandate was clear. Had the UK made appropriate plans and held its nerve the EU would have agreed to a fundamentally different compromise. We now are running around like headless chickens but in reality we have no option now. We should state we are not prepared to have any form of hard Irish border, which the Irish govt should reiterate, that we will have tariff free and frictionless trade for as long as it's reciprocated and hold our nerve. EU businesses will want what we want. It is the political motivations of the EU who fear a positive UK exit that is preventing an economic solution which is good for every one. " Real Brexiters like Nigel Farage and Mervyn King were telling the government to prepare properly for no deal 2 years ago. Theresa May and Philip Hammond wouldn't listen. This is what you get when you have remainers running Brexit. | |||
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"No issue with all the no deal preparations, but they should have been done from day 1. The EU has never believed the UK would walk away, which is why they have had the upper hand in negotiations. In the same way they never believed the UK would vote leave when Cameron sought some commitments to change prior to the referendum and have absolutely nothing. I would have the vote in parliament, and if it fails cease all negotiations with EU and do everything in my power to have things ready for 29 March on no deal basis. If you think all preparations for a no deal can be in place in 100 days, then you clearly haven't the first idea about what will be required I agree which is why is should have been the plan from day 1. The strategic mistake made by the UK govt was insisting it needed a deal to leave thereby negating any negotiating leverage. The mandate was clear. Had the UK made appropriate plans and held its nerve the EU would have agreed to a fundamentally different compromise. We now are running around like headless chickens but in reality we have no option now. We should state we are not prepared to have any form of hard Irish border, which the Irish govt should reiterate, that we will have tariff free and frictionless trade for as long as it's reciprocated and hold our nerve. EU businesses will want what we want. It is the political motivations of the EU who fear a positive UK exit that is preventing an economic solution which is good for every one. " We didn't have any negotiating position before we started the timer. I think you overstate how nervous the EU are. Regardless we started off not knowing what we want, and still don't. Failing was guaranteed. | |||
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"No issue with all the no deal preparations, but they should have been done from day 1. The EU has never believed the UK would walk away, which is why they have had the upper hand in negotiations. In the same way they never believed the UK would vote leave when Cameron sought some commitments to change prior to the referendum and have absolutely nothing. I would have the vote in parliament, and if it fails cease all negotiations with EU and do everything in my power to have things ready for 29 March on no deal basis. If you think all preparations for a no deal can be in place in 100 days, then you clearly haven't the first idea about what will be required I agree which is why is should have been the plan from day 1. The strategic mistake made by the UK govt was insisting it needed a deal to leave thereby negating any negotiating leverage. The mandate was clear. Had the UK made appropriate plans and held its nerve the EU would have agreed to a fundamentally different compromise. We now are running around like headless chickens but in reality we have no option now. We should state we are not prepared to have any form of hard Irish border, which the Irish govt should reiterate, that we will have tariff free and frictionless trade for as long as it's reciprocated and hold our nerve. EU businesses will want what we want. It is the political motivations of the EU who fear a positive UK exit that is preventing an economic solution which is good for every one. We didn't have any negotiating position before we started the timer. I think you overstate how nervous the EU are. Regardless we started off not knowing what we want, and still don't. Failing was guaranteed." I don't think failing was guaranteed at All, but once we showed out hand we were done. The EU is terrified that Italy, the Dutch and even France may look to leave thus rendering the whole political union exercise meaningless and doomed to failure. Their only strategy is to hang tough on the UK which I understand. | |||
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"No issue with all the no deal preparations, but they should have been done from day 1. The EU has never believed the UK would walk away, which is why they have had the upper hand in negotiations. In the same way they never believed the UK would vote leave when Cameron sought some commitments to change prior to the referendum and have absolutely nothing. I would have the vote in parliament, and if it fails cease all negotiations with EU and do everything in my power to have things ready for 29 March on no deal basis. If you think all preparations for a no deal can be in place in 100 days, then you clearly haven't the first idea about what will be required I agree which is why is should have been the plan from day 1. The strategic mistake made by the UK govt was insisting it needed a deal to leave thereby negating any negotiating leverage. The mandate was clear. Had the UK made appropriate plans and held its nerve the EU would have agreed to a fundamentally different compromise. We now are running around like headless chickens but in reality we have no option now. We should state we are not prepared to have any form of hard Irish border, which the Irish govt should reiterate, that we will have tariff free and frictionless trade for as long as it's reciprocated and hold our nerve. EU businesses will want what we want. It is the political motivations of the EU who fear a positive UK exit that is preventing an economic solution which is good for every one. We didn't have any negotiating position before we started the timer. I think you overstate how nervous the EU are. Regardless we started off not knowing what we want, and still don't. Failing was guaranteed. I don't think failing was guaranteed at All, but once we showed out hand we were done. The EU is terrified that Italy, the Dutch and even France may look to leave thus rendering the whole political union exercise meaningless and doomed to failure. Their only strategy is to hang tough on the UK which I understand." I don't think the EU are. I think business is terrified of a single market break-up. Perhaps both. Same outcome regardless. Hang tough. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned." You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. | |||
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"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. The thing is though the EU actually thought they had given a lot of ground to Cameron and they thought they had given him enough concessions to keep us sweet. The British people didn't see it like that, they thought Cameron got breadcrumbs and that the EU was taking the piss with what they 'offered'. The British people and the EU are miles apart on their thinking, we are simply not compatible with them so it really is best for us to cut ties with them now and leave. " Perhaps Britain should leave the EU and the rest stay in the EU? | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. " When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned."
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up."Have worked all over Europe and the Germans are by far the best people, companies and govt to work with. You are right, I really wish people would stop banging on about something that happened almost 80 years ago. Has no relevance in today's world. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up."were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ? | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?"Have you seen Lord Digby Jones quote from yesterday? | |||
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"Who the hell is he as if I would read anything from a tool with a name like that lol" He is a monumental knob but sadly a peer of the realm and prominent Brexiteer. He advocated limiting free movement but brought up the war at the idea if £7 charge for visas to travel to EU countries. Sadly the ruling elite in this country and behaving like a bunch of juvenile delinquents. I have lost all faith in the lot of them. See my rant on the Corbyn no confidence thread to get my drift! | |||
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"No issue with all the no deal preparations, but they should have been done from day 1. The EU has never believed the UK would walk away, which is why they have had the upper hand in negotiations. In the same way they never believed the UK would vote leave when Cameron sought some commitments to change prior to the referendum and have absolutely nothing. I would have the vote in parliament, and if it fails cease all negotiations with EU and do everything in my power to have things ready for 29 March on no deal basis. If you think all preparations for a no deal can be in place in 100 days, then you clearly haven't the first idea about what will be required I agree which is why is should have been the plan from day 1. The strategic mistake made by the UK govt was insisting it needed a deal to leave thereby negating any negotiating leverage. The mandate was clear. Had the UK made appropriate plans and held its nerve the EU would have agreed to a fundamentally different compromise. We now are running around like headless chickens but in reality we have no option now. We should state we are not prepared to have any form of hard Irish border, which the Irish govt should reiterate, that we will have tariff free and frictionless trade for as long as it's reciprocated and hold our nerve. EU businesses will want what we want. It is the political motivations of the EU who fear a positive UK exit that is preventing an economic solution which is good for every one. We didn't have any negotiating position before we started the timer. I think you overstate how nervous the EU are. Regardless we started off not knowing what we want, and still don't. Failing was guaranteed. I don't think failing was guaranteed at All, but once we showed out hand we were done. The EU is terrified that Italy, the Dutch and even France may look to leave thus rendering the whole political union exercise meaningless and doomed to failure. Their only strategy is to hang tough on the UK which I understand." Fail to prepare....prepare to fail. Amateurish approach from our elected Government. Utterly hopeless shower | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?"Peacehaven for one.. Ps, responding to something in inaccurate or plain wrong is not to belittle.. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?"There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone". The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group. You really haven't heard or read anything like this? | |||
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"Who the hell is he as if I would read anything from a tool with a name like that lol He is a monumental knob but sadly a peer of the realm and prominent Brexiteer. He advocated limiting free movement but brought up the war at the idea if £7 charge for visas to travel to EU countries. Sadly the ruling elite in this country and behaving like a bunch of juvenile delinquents. I have lost all faith in the lot of them. See my rant on the Corbyn no confidence thread to get my drift!" Not seen what he said on free movement but he was spot on about Boris and trump.. | |||
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"Catching up on the news last night and this morning and it appears the U.K. is going on to a war footing... £2 billion (more) - that is two thousand, million allocated to no deal preparations Drugs being stockpiled Soldiers being put on stand-by And - on top of it all.... MP’s are going on holiday for a couple of weeks instead of taking action to resolve matters and avoid spending this amount of money. Let’s be clear here, this is Theresa May who is wholly to blame for her inability to negotiate a reasonable withdrawal agreement and so now she threatens us all because of her failure. This does not seem right to me and I wonder just what might be the longer term implications for this kind of self indulgent attitude?" project fear strikes again .its absurd and nonsense . this country won't grind to a halt just because of some silly comments | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?"Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"TURKEYS across Britain have agreed that we should stop discussing what kind of Christmas we are going to have and just get on with it. The turkeys, who backed Christmas by an overwhelming 52 per cent margin, believe there has been too much argument already and cannot see what is delaying things. Tom Booker, a free-range turkey living in Norfolk, said: “We’ve set the date and we’re going to bloody well see it through. “Enough shilly-shallying. It’s not complicated. Christmas means Christmas, and we’re going to make a success of it. “I tell you what, even the turkeys here who were against it have had enough of all the buggering about now. They want it done and dusted as much as the rest of us. “Enough Project Fear. Bring it on. I bet it won’t be nearly as bad as everyone says.”" Utter piffle! | |||
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"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. " The Leave campaign ran on the basis that we would easily get a trade deal at least as good as the one we enjoy now without any of the costs and responsibilities. Also that it would have negligible impact on people's lives and finances. Quite the opposite in fact. That it would enhance everything. You appeared to not have believed this. Do you think that was the same for everyone who voted leave? If they expected to get what they were told in the "manifesto" they thought they were getting but aren't what then? How can they communicate that before it's imposed upon them? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?"Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa... Obviously that's only the start of the list. Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now."And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now."Sounds like a list of Commonwealth nations, and I am sure they will be by our side as we begin to change our trade deals after a no deal BREXIT.  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing. "Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources. Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots: Poland New Zealand Canada Czechoslovakia Belgium Austral South Africa France Ireland United States Southern Rhodesia Jamaica Jamaica Barbados Newfoundland Northern Rhodesia The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots. Alone? Arrogance. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
Sounds like a list of Commonwealth nations, and I am sure they will be by our side as we begin to change our trade deals after a no deal BREXIT. "Not alone though. Everyone will happily trade with is as long as we have money. What do they want from us. We also already have EU trade deals via the EU. As a smaller market why would we get a better one. India as a rising power will trade on their terms, not ours. That is, of course, after we negotiate Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. objections to the terms of our WTO membership. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
Sounds like a list of Commonwealth nations, and I am sure they will be by our side as we begin to change our trade deals after a no deal BREXIT.
Not alone though.
Everyone will happily trade with is as long as we have money. What do they want from us.
We also already have EU trade deals via the EU. As a smaller market why would we get a better one.
India as a rising power will trade on their terms, not ours.
That is, of course, after we negotiate Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. objections to the terms of our WTO membership."Then bring it on! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
Sounds like a list of Commonwealth nations, and I am sure they will be by our side as we begin to change our trade deals after a no deal BREXIT.
Not alone though.
Everyone will happily trade with is as long as we have money. What do they want from us.
We also already have EU trade deals via the EU. As a smaller market why would we get a better one.
India as a rising power will trade on their terms, not ours.
That is, of course, after we negotiate Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. objections to the terms of our WTO membership.
Then bring it on!"QED  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance."Yes those individuals are indeed heroes who fought for the only European country that did not capitulate to the Nazis. Yet some posters on these threads would happily forget their sacrifice. Sorry, "nostalgia" or dismiss it as a "poppy obsession". Nothing says "thanks for your help" like sweeping it under the carpet. In armed combat, no other nation stood with us against the Nazis as they over ran Europe. Certainly America was prepared to see who won, and who best to do business with. If we'd lost the BEF at Dunkirk, there would have been no fight back at all. "Poppy obsession"...  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
Yes those individuals are indeed heroes who fought for the only European country that did not capitulate to the Nazis. Yet some posters on these threads would happily forget their sacrifice. Sorry, "nostalgia" or dismiss it as a "poppy obsession". Nothing says "thanks for your help" like sweeping it under the carpet.
In armed combat, no other nation stood with us against the Nazis as they over ran Europe. Certainly America was prepared to see who won, and who best to do business with. If we'd lost the BEF at Dunkirk, there would have been no fight back at all. "Poppy obsession"... "Other than Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands and France? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?"we survived the war did we not ? We pulled together did we not ? We stood alone we no we didn’t there just proud comments I’d say what’s wrong with that arnt most ppl proud of there country’s history ppl can hardly bang on about our football history can they lol | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
Yes those individuals are indeed heroes who fought for the only European country that did not capitulate to the Nazis. Yet some posters on these threads would happily forget their sacrifice. Sorry, "nostalgia" or dismiss it as a "poppy obsession". Nothing says "thanks for your help" like sweeping it under the carpet.
In armed combat, no other nation stood with us against the Nazis as they over ran Europe. Certainly America was prepared to see who won, and who best to do business with. If we'd lost the BEF at Dunkirk, there would have been no fight back at all. "Poppy obsession"...
Other than Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands and France? "I'll give you Norway, but France the Netherlands and Belgium? You'll have to explain how they stood with the uk to reassure our government and population that they didn't need to capitulate. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this? we survived the war did we not ? We pulled together did we not ? We stood alone we no we didn’t there just proud comments I’d say what’s wrong with that arnt most ppl proud of there country’s history ppl can hardly bang on about our football history can they lol "That's irrelevant to our relationship to the EU. It's the language of conflict. I don't want our country to "survive" under stress. The war was imposed upon us. Would you wish it voluntarily? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Catching up on the news last night and this morning and it appears the U.K. is going on to a war footing... £2 billion (more) - that is two thousand, million allocated to no deal preparations Drugs being stockpiled Soldiers being put on stand-by And - on top of it all.... MP’s are going on holiday for a couple of weeks instead of taking action to resolve matters and avoid spending this amount of money. Let’s be clear here, this is Theresa May who is wholly to blame for her inability to negotiate a reasonable withdrawal agreement and so now she threatens us all because of her failure. This does not seem right to me and I wonder just what might be the longer term implications for this kind of self indulgent attitude?" Just watched the documentary about how HS2 will cost a hell of a lot more than predicted. Seeing the way this government squanders tax payers money, nothing suprises me now. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
Yes those individuals are indeed heroes who fought for the only European country that did not capitulate to the Nazis. Yet some posters on these threads would happily forget their sacrifice. Sorry, "nostalgia" or dismiss it as a "poppy obsession". Nothing says "thanks for your help" like sweeping it under the carpet.
In armed combat, no other nation stood with us against the Nazis as they over ran Europe. Certainly America was prepared to see who won, and who best to do business with. If we'd lost the BEF at Dunkirk, there would have been no fight back at all. "Poppy obsession"...
Other than Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands and France?
I'll give you Norway, but France the Netherlands and Belgium? You'll have to explain how they stood with the uk to reassure our government and population that they didn't need to capitulate. "Interesting plot-twist you're creating. The standard duck and roll
If you don't wish to learn from history objectively then don't. You will just make the same mistakes.
Enjoy your self-indulgent vanity and believe in your exceptionality and greatness | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
Yes those individuals are indeed heroes who fought for the only European country that did not capitulate to the Nazis. Yet some posters on these threads would happily forget their sacrifice. Sorry, "nostalgia" or dismiss it as a "poppy obsession". Nothing says "thanks for your help" like sweeping it under the carpet.
In armed combat, no other nation stood with us against the Nazis as they over ran Europe. Certainly America was prepared to see who won, and who best to do business with. If we'd lost the BEF at Dunkirk, there would have been no fight back at all. "Poppy obsession"...
Other than Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands and France?
I'll give you Norway, but France the Netherlands and Belgium? You'll have to explain how they stood with the uk to reassure our government and population that they didn't need to capitulate.
Interesting plot-twist you're creating.
The standard duck and roll
If you don't wish to learn from history objectively then don't. You will just make the same mistakes.
Enjoy your self-indulgent vanity and believe in your exceptionality and greatness "So you're wrong, and you have a thinly veiled hatred for the country of your birth, from a liberal to! Quelle surprise.. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
Yes those individuals are indeed heroes who fought for the only European country that did not capitulate to the Nazis. Yet some posters on these threads would happily forget their sacrifice. Sorry, "nostalgia" or dismiss it as a "poppy obsession". Nothing says "thanks for your help" like sweeping it under the carpet.
In armed combat, no other nation stood with us against the Nazis as they over ran Europe. Certainly America was prepared to see who won, and who best to do business with. If we'd lost the BEF at Dunkirk, there would have been no fight back at all. "Poppy obsession"...
Other than Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands and France?
I'll give you Norway, but France the Netherlands and Belgium? You'll have to explain how they stood with the uk to reassure our government and population that they didn't need to capitulate.
Interesting plot-twist you're creating.
The standard duck and roll
If you don't wish to learn from history objectively then don't. You will just make the same mistakes.
Enjoy your self-indulgent vanity and believe in your exceptionality and greatness
So you're wrong, and you have a thinly veiled hatred for the country of your birth, from a liberal to! Quelle surprise.."If you like | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? " Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. " I guess you are the forum SME on misplaced nationalism. I bow to your extensive knowledge. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this? we survived the war did we not ? We pulled together did we not ? We stood alone we no we didn’t there just proud comments I’d say what’s wrong with that arnt most ppl proud of there country’s history ppl can hardly bang on about our football history can they lol "Proud of raping and pillaging half the globe? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. I guess you are the forum SME on misplaced nationalism. I bow to your extensive knowledge. " Getting back to the op's original comments ; I reckon May, who was a remainer, is trying to redefine what BrExit means. It was originally a hard brexit, she wants to essentialy stay in the EU but tweak sround tbe edges and labek that brexit. The EU were right, when they said she should be clear on what we want., but it seems shes being too vague. What we should have done is negotiate terms as if we're just another country, external to the EU, with focus on the irish border, solvable in my opinion by others on here. Unfortunately time is too short, far too short for an orderly exit from the EU | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
Yes those individuals are indeed heroes who fought for the only European country that did not capitulate to the Nazis. Yet some posters on these threads would happily forget their sacrifice. Sorry, "nostalgia" or dismiss it as a "poppy obsession". Nothing says "thanks for your help" like sweeping it under the carpet.
In armed combat, no other nation stood with us against the Nazis as they over ran Europe. Certainly America was prepared to see who won, and who best to do business with. If we'd lost the BEF at Dunkirk, there would have been no fight back at all. "Poppy obsession"...
Other than Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands and France?
I'll give you Norway, but France the Netherlands and Belgium? You'll have to explain how they stood with the uk to reassure our government and population that they didn't need to capitulate.
Interesting plot-twist you're creating.
The standard duck and roll
If you don't wish to learn from history objectively then don't. You will just make the same mistakes.
Enjoy your self-indulgent vanity and believe in your exceptionality and greatness
So you're wrong, and you have a thinly veiled hatred for the country of your birth, from a liberal to! Quelle surprise.."Having an accurate understanding of actual historical events is a virtue. It stops you making mistakes in the future. Seeing history through rose tinted spectacles is pure vanity. And vanity comes before a fall. You may want to at least try to understand the history of WW2 before making a fool of yourself. The phoney war would be a great place to start with the front pages of newspapers such as the Daily Mail announcing the Nazi’s: Could not afford a war with Britain Wouldn’t dare take on the night of the BEF Would tremble at the thought of a war with the Empire. And as such... people carried on their daily lives in blissful ignorance until May 1940 when the Nazi’s totally annihilated the BEF in a matter of days and sent them scurrying back to Dunkirk and across the Channel. It was an unmitigated disaster. Britain then fought a guerilla war in Europe supporting Free French, Belgian and Dutch forces in their resistance battles with the Nazi’s. If it was not for foreign Spitfire and Hurricane pilots (particularly Polish) - it is highly doubtful that the RAF would have prevailed. These are just facts relating to the first 18 months of WW2 and to deny them is not to hate your country but to just know what you are talking about. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this? we survived the war did we not ? We pulled together did we not ? We stood alone we no we didn’t there just proud comments I’d say what’s wrong with that arnt most ppl proud of there country’s history ppl can hardly bang on about our football history can they lol "The thing is I dont have any issue with you being patriotic and loving your country but, for me, having had a father in law who was a navigator in a Lancaster bomber during WW2, it offends me deeply that people who have not experienced what he went through should shout the odds by using jingoistic romanticised Churchillian metaphors to push their point of view. He came back on more than one occasion to the hut that they shared with another crew to find the other crews belongings had been packed up and cleared away because they weren’t coming back. He set up his own business after the war and had good reliable customers in germany for many years after. Thats real and true unlike a lot of things said on here. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. I guess you are the forum SME on misplaced nationalism. I bow to your extensive knowledge. Getting back to the op's original comments ; I reckon May, who was a remainer, is trying to redefine what BrExit means. It was originally a hard brexit, she wants to essentialy stay in the EU but tweak sround tbe edges and labek that brexit. The EU were right, when they said she should be clear on what we want., but it seems shes being too vague. What we should have done is negotiate terms as if we're just another country, external to the EU, with focus on the irish border, solvable in my opinion by others on here. Unfortunately time is too short, far too short for an orderly exit from the EU " Sounds like a Canada style free trade deal with the EU then (which is what real brexiters in the ERG want). Donald Tusk, Barnier and the EU even told us many months ago we could negotiate this if it's what we wanted. This is the direction of travel the first Brexit secretary David Davis wanted to take negotiations in but as he revealed on bbc question time last Thursday night Theresa May had other ideas and went with her half in/half out Chequers plan instead. David Davis and Boris Johnson couldn't stomach the proposed chequers deal and so resigned. | |||
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Brexit means Brexit | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. I guess you are the forum SME on misplaced nationalism. I bow to your extensive knowledge. Getting back to the op's original comments ; I reckon May, who was a remainer, is trying to redefine what BrExit means. It was originally a hard brexit, she wants to essentialy stay in the EU but tweak sround tbe edges and labek that brexit. The EU were right, when they said she should be clear on what we want., but it seems shes being too vague. What we should have done is negotiate terms as if we're just another country, external to the EU, with focus on the irish border, solvable in my opinion by others on here. Unfortunately time is too short, far too short for an orderly exit from the EU Sounds like a Canada style free trade deal with the EU then (which is what real brexiters in the ERG want). Donald Tusk, Barnier and the EU even told us many months ago we could negotiate this if it's what we wanted. This is the direction of travel the first Brexit secretary David Davis wanted to take negotiations in but as he revealed on bbc question time last Thursday night Theresa May had other ideas and went with her half in/half out Chequers plan instead. David Davis and Boris Johnson couldn't stomach the proposed chequers deal and so resigned. " Re-writing history again you nutjob! | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
Yes those individuals are indeed heroes who fought for the only European country that did not capitulate to the Nazis. Yet some posters on these threads would happily forget their sacrifice. Sorry, "nostalgia" or dismiss it as a "poppy obsession". Nothing says "thanks for your help" like sweeping it under the carpet.
In armed combat, no other nation stood with us against the Nazis as they over ran Europe. Certainly America was prepared to see who won, and who best to do business with. If we'd lost the BEF at Dunkirk, there would have been no fight back at all. "Poppy obsession"...
Other than Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands and France?
I'll give you Norway, but France the Netherlands and Belgium? You'll have to explain how they stood with the uk to reassure our government and population that they didn't need to capitulate.
Interesting plot-twist you're creating.
The standard duck and roll
If you don't wish to learn from history objectively then don't. You will just make the same mistakes.
Enjoy your self-indulgent vanity and believe in your exceptionality and greatness
So you're wrong, and you have a thinly veiled hatred for the country of your birth, from a liberal to! Quelle surprise..
Having an accurate understanding of actual historical events is a virtue. It stops you making mistakes in the future.
Seeing history through rose tinted spectacles is pure vanity. And vanity comes before a fall.
You may want to at least try to understand the history of WW2 before making a fool of yourself. The phoney war would be a great place to start with the front pages of newspapers such as the Daily Mail announcing the Nazi’s:
Could not afford a war with Britain
Wouldn’t dare take on the night of the BEF
Would tremble at the thought of a war with the Empire.
And as such... people carried on their daily lives in blissful ignorance until May 1940 when the Nazi’s totally annihilated the BEF in a matter of days and sent them scurrying back to Dunkirk and across the Channel. It was an unmitigated disaster.
Britain then fought a guerilla war in Europe supporting Free French, Belgian and Dutch forces in their resistance battles with the Nazi’s. If it was not for foreign Spitfire and Hurricane pilots (particularly Polish) - it is highly doubtful that the RAF would have prevailed.
These are just facts relating to the first 18 months of WW2 and to deny them is not to hate your country but to just know what you are talking about."So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? " Who cares...you are so far off topic | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. I guess you are the forum SME on misplaced nationalism. I bow to your extensive knowledge. Getting back to the op's original comments ; I reckon May, who was a remainer, is trying to redefine what BrExit means. It was originally a hard brexit, she wants to essentialy stay in the EU but tweak sround tbe edges and labek that brexit. The EU were right, when they said she should be clear on what we want., but it seems shes being too vague. What we should have done is negotiate terms as if we're just another country, external to the EU, with focus on the irish border, solvable in my opinion by others on here. Unfortunately time is too short, far too short for an orderly exit from the EU " Nobody knows what Brexit actually meant because different people bought different Brexit ideas. The absolute proof of that is where we are today - some people are happy with May’s Brexit and others are not. Let’s remember what was said at the time... “No-one is questioning our place in the Single Market” “What is so bad about being like Norway” There will be no downsides to Brexit, only upsides.” “The German car manufacturers will ensure that the U.K. gets a great Brexit” “We will have the same benefits, or better - outside the EU than we have it the EU” Reality has now struck home and the Brexit fantasy is laid bare. As a matter of interest, who said that Brexit would mean spending billions, stockpiling food and medicine and putting troops on standby? I must have missed that. The point being here is that Theresa Nay is wilfully wasting £billions because she is a shot negotiator and tried to negotiate an undefined concept without national consensus and now she wants to threaten everyone because of her failings. This cannot be right. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. I guess you are the forum SME on misplaced nationalism. I bow to your extensive knowledge. Getting back to the op's original comments ; I reckon May, who was a remainer, is trying to redefine what BrExit means. It was originally a hard brexit, she wants to essentialy stay in the EU but tweak sround tbe edges and labek that brexit. The EU were right, when they said she should be clear on what we want., but it seems shes being too vague. What we should have done is negotiate terms as if we're just another country, external to the EU, with focus on the irish border, solvable in my opinion by others on here. Unfortunately time is too short, far too short for an orderly exit from the EU Sounds like a Canada style free trade deal with the EU then (which is what real brexiters in the ERG want). Donald Tusk, Barnier and the EU even told us many months ago we could negotiate this if it's what we wanted. This is the direction of travel the first Brexit secretary David Davis wanted to take negotiations in but as he revealed on bbc question time last Thursday night Theresa May had other ideas and went with her half in/half out Chequers plan instead. David Davis and Boris Johnson couldn't stomach the proposed chequers deal and so resigned. Re-writing history again you nutjob!" Care to elaborate which part of what i said was false then, or are you just here to hurl out pathetic insults? | |||
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" This cannot be right. " It's very much wrong....it's a tragedy for most but has a nice poetic justice for the biggest fanboys and girls.. they'll learn to be humble eventually | |||
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"Real brexiters
Brexit means Brexit "Theresa May supported remain and voted remain. Fact. | |||
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" Care to elaborate which part of what i said was false then, or are you just here to hurl out pathetic insults? " 99% of everything you've said here for the past 2 years has turned out to be measurably false | |||
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"Real brexiters
Brexit means Brexit
Theresa May supported remain and voted remain. Fact. "And you had "every faith" in her until recently | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. I guess you are the forum SME on misplaced nationalism. I bow to your extensive knowledge. Getting back to the op's original comments ; I reckon May, who was a remainer, is trying to redefine what BrExit means. It was originally a hard brexit, she wants to essentialy stay in the EU but tweak sround tbe edges and labek that brexit. The EU were right, when they said she should be clear on what we want., but it seems shes being too vague. What we should have done is negotiate terms as if we're just another country, external to the EU, with focus on the irish border, solvable in my opinion by others on here. Unfortunately time is too short, far too short for an orderly exit from the EU Sounds like a Canada style free trade deal with the EU then (which is what real brexiters in the ERG want). Donald Tusk, Barnier and the EU even told us many months ago we could negotiate this if it's what we wanted. This is the direction of travel the first Brexit secretary David Davis wanted to take negotiations in but as he revealed on bbc question time last Thursday night Theresa May had other ideas and went with her half in/half out Chequers plan instead. David Davis and Boris Johnson couldn't stomach the proposed chequers deal and so resigned. " Hold your horses.... This time last year Michel Barnier released his graphic that demonstrated EXACTLY where the U.K. could according to its own red lines. A Canada type deal was there and is the reason that the Irish backstop was included in the Phase 1 document. David Davis said that this was just a poorly disguised Negotiating tactic and the U.K. would never accept such a poor deal because the U.K. had more to offer. He then denied that the Irish backstop was legally binding and he specifically is the reason why the EU latterly tightened up all of their verbiage. It is a bit rich now for David Davis to announce that a Canada type deal is now best for the U.K. after so roundly condemning it exactly one year ago when it was someone else's deduction - based on U.K. red lines. Are we now saying that we just accept what the EU offer us and not bother trying to negotiate? If so, why not jump on the Barniers bus this time last year and save a years worth of wasted time? | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic " Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. " If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy." Correct. But not from day one. Not while we were licking our wounds. It would have been easy to stick with Chamberlain and his peace in our time. But we didn't. | |||
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"You can't redefine what was never defined in the first place. " The leave definition was a clean break from the eu. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy." Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. " Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. " Yup | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. Yup " Bad news for the Jews, gypsies, disabled, and gay, but hey, we're neutral, you crack on. And we could have been really proud about that... | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy." I think most normal ppl know we didn’t win the war on our our just like most normal ppl know that we played a major part in winning the war and there’s nothing wrong in being proud of that | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. Yup Bad news for the Jews, gypsies, disabled, and gay, but hey, we're neutral, you crack on. And we could have been really proud about that..." So much fake virtue. I think you forget your history of imposing great and unnecessary suffering on a massive scale. Ireland is making great strides in equality these days | |||
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"And neither do you hear much about how Britain shunned the exodus of Jews from central Europe in the 1930s. Nor how many were refused entry to Palestine by the British." By shunned, how many did Britain actually allow in during the '30s? | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. Yup Bad news for the Jews, gypsies, disabled, and gay, but hey, we're neutral, you crack on. And we could have been really proud about that... So much fake virtue. I think you forget your history of imposing great and unnecessary suffering on a massive scale. Ireland is making great strides in equality these days "It's not fake virtue. It's a fact that Ireland's stance against Nazi Germany was "neutral". Congratulations, maybe you should have offered them banking services as well as R&R for the U boat crews. | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. Yup Bad news for the Jews, gypsies, disabled, and gay, but hey, we're neutral, you crack on. And we could have been really proud about that... So much fake virtue. I think you forget your history of imposing great and unnecessary suffering on a massive scale. Ireland is making great strides in equality these days "Mmmm, for people looking in on Ireland from the outside it doesn't exactly look as fresh and rosy as you make out. Leo Varadker accused Sinn Fein of letting the Balaclava slip yesterday in the Dail, didn't he, with furiuos reactions from Sinn Fein. 
Scene's that make the goings on in the House of Commons look like a tea party. Footage here if anyone wants to see it......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilIYzbrJmsc
So maybe pay more attention to what is going on in your own country before pontificating and posturing about what is happening here in the UK as you often do. | |||
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"And neither do you hear much about how Britain shunned the exodus of Jews from central Europe in the 1930s. Nor how many were refused entry to Palestine by the British. By shunned, how many did Britain actually allow in during the '30s? " I’d need to look up the reference books. Britain was pretty xenophobic in the 1930s. Plenty of admiration for what Hitler was doing. We did not roll out the welcome mat for refugees. Sound familiar? At the start of the war, the UK was ahead of the US in nuclear science. Many of the world’s best physicists were Jewish. Some came here, but Churchill refused to let them do any meaningful work on the programme because they were foreign. So they went to the United States where the Americans were only too pleased to put them to work. Consequently, the US quickly overtook the UK and the rest, as they say, is history. Churchill’s blunder. | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. Yup Bad news for the Jews, gypsies, disabled, and gay, but hey, we're neutral, you crack on. And we could have been really proud about that... So much fake virtue. I think you forget your history of imposing great and unnecessary suffering on a massive scale. Ireland is making great strides in equality these days
Mmmm, for people looking in on Ireland from the outside it doesn't exactly look as fresh and rosy as you make out. Leo Varadker accused Sinn Fein of letting the Balaclava slip yesterday in the Dail, didn't he, with furiuos reactions from Sinn Fein.
Scene's that make the goings on in the House of Commons look like a tea party. Footage here if anyone wants to see it......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilIYzbrJmsc
So maybe pay more attention to what is going on in your own country before pontificating and posturing about what is happening here in the UK as you often do. "All politics are a waste of time. Fine Gael and Sinn Fein included. You keep on doing the pontificating, I'll just take the piss out of your empty arguments. | |||
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" Mmmm, for people looking in on Ireland from the outside it doesn't exactly look as fresh and rosy as you make out. Leo Varadker accused Sinn Fein of letting the Balaclava slip yesterday in the Dail, didn't he, with furiuos reactions from Sinn Fein.
Scene's that make the goings on in the House of Commons look like a tea party. Footage here if anyone wants to see it......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilIYzbrJmsc
"Quite exciting  | |||
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" All politics are a waste of time. " Said by someone who spends an awful lot of time posting on a politics forum. A paradox if ever there was one. | |||
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" All politics are a waste of time. Said by someone who spends an awful lot of time posting on a politics forum. A paradox if ever there was one. "It is right. The trick is not to takes things too seriously 
I get a good laugh out of your lot, the herd behaviour and emotional arguments, the bias and dissonance and the most laughable predictions for the future. | |||
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"Real brexiters
Brexit means Brexit
Theresa May supported remain and voted remain. Fact. "Your pretty clueless to the reality that one's own personal view is put aside when in a position where you are representing others.. Or is it beyond your experience to grasp that if one is mandated by those whom you are serving to take a certain path then that is what you do.. | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. Yup Bad news for the Jews, gypsies, disabled, and gay, but hey, we're neutral, you crack on. And we could have been really proud about that... So much fake virtue. I think you forget your history of imposing great and unnecessary suffering on a massive scale. Ireland is making great strides in equality these days
Mmmm, for people looking in on Ireland from the outside it doesn't exactly look as fresh and rosy as you make out. Leo Varadker accused Sinn Fein of letting the Balaclava slip yesterday in the Dail, didn't he, with furiuos reactions from Sinn Fein.
Scene's that make the goings on in the House of Commons look like a tea party. Footage here if anyone wants to see it......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilIYzbrJmsc
So maybe pay more attention to what is going on in your own country before pontificating and posturing about what is happening here in the UK as you often do. "Hahaha on you go Leo! That cheeky little smile near the end as he sat back and watched the opposition go mental  | |||
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"Nobody cares about this ww2 pride bollox....you lot are actively working towards WW3 anyway so you can be there present and ready with your pens and pencils to record history as you see it. Should have stayed neutral like Ireland i guess. Yup Bad news for the Jews, gypsies, disabled, and gay, but hey, we're neutral, you crack on. And we could have been really proud about that... So much fake virtue. I think you forget your history of imposing great and unnecessary suffering on a massive scale. Ireland is making great strides in equality these days
Mmmm, for people looking in on Ireland from the outside it doesn't exactly look as fresh and rosy as you make out. Leo Varadker accused Sinn Fein of letting the Balaclava slip yesterday in the Dail, didn't he, with furiuos reactions from Sinn Fein.
Scene's that make the goings on in the House of Commons look like a tea party. Footage here if anyone wants to see it......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilIYzbrJmsc
So maybe pay more attention to what is going on in your own country before pontificating and posturing about what is happening here in the UK as you often do.
Hahaha on you go Leo! That cheeky little smile near the end as he sat back and watched the opposition go mental "I just watched that...it exemplifies all that is wrong with politics...pomp, noise, "shaming" and character assignation (I agree with leo here but the style annoys me) in place of anything that looks like running a country. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned. You might be on to something. All kicked off with the poppy obsession this year...or maybe the year previous with Dunkirk and similar movies all appearing around the same time. When you say the "poppy obsession this year" are you referring to the 100th anniversary of the Armistice? An event that was marked globally, with the largest events being held in Paris? Yes that one...it's seemed disproportionate and brought out the jingoistic leanings. I guess you are the forum SME on misplaced nationalism. I bow to your extensive knowledge. Getting back to the op's original comments ; I reckon May, who was a remainer, is trying to redefine what BrExit means. It was originally a hard brexit, she wants to essentialy stay in the EU but tweak sround tbe edges and labek that brexit. The EU were right, when they said she should be clear on what we want., but it seems shes being too vague. What we should have done is negotiate terms as if we're just another country, external to the EU, with focus on the irish border, solvable in my opinion by others on here. Unfortunately time is too short, far too short for an orderly exit from the EU Sounds like a Canada style free trade deal with the EU then (which is what real brexiters in the ERG want). Donald Tusk, Barnier and the EU even told us many months ago we could negotiate this if it's what we wanted. This is the direction of travel the first Brexit secretary David Davis wanted to take negotiations in but as he revealed on bbc question time last Thursday night Theresa May had other ideas and went with her half in/half out Chequers plan instead. David Davis and Boris Johnson couldn't stomach the proposed chequers deal and so resigned. Re-writing history again you nutjob! Care to elaborate which part of what i said was false then, or are you just here to hurl out pathetic insults? " Everybody knows what your agenda is and as you are so fond of hurling out pathetic insults yourself I hardly think you have the moral high ground here....fruit loop | |||
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"And neither do you hear much about how Britain shunned the exodus of Jews from central Europe in the 1930s. Nor how many were refused entry to Palestine by the British. By shunned, how many did Britain actually allow in during the '30s? I’d need to look up the reference books. Britain was pretty xenophobic in the 1930s. Plenty of admiration for what Hitler was doing. We did not roll out the welcome mat for refugees. Sound familiar? At the start of the war, the UK was ahead of the US in nuclear science. Many of the world’s best physicists were Jewish. Some came here, but Churchill refused to let them do any meaningful work on the programme because they were foreign. So they went to the United States where the Americans were only too pleased to put them to work. Consequently, the US quickly overtook the UK and the rest, as they say, is history. Churchill’s blunder." Ah sorry my mistake, i thought you knew what you were talking about. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. " There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail." No-one is denying the huge help that the polish and other foreign pilots gave during the battle of Britain. My point is that it may not have got that far in the first place. The government could have capitulated before hand, it could have crumbled at the first sign of the blitz, but it didn't. No other nation stood with us at that point. It was Britain vs the Nazis. And Britain said enough was enough. That "blitz spirit" so derided these days was the motivation to fight back, not accept defeat. The battle of Britain and the rest of the war was born from that. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. I think most normal ppl know we didn’t win the war on our our just like most normal ppl know that we played a major part in winning the war and there’s nothing wrong in being proud of that " Except that is not widely recognised. It is being denied on this thread. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. " Land area? The land area fought the Nazis did it? People in all the occupied countries fought and died under occupation and Britain would not have survived without the resistance tying up German resource, sabotaging logistics and providing intelligence. Vain glorious exceptionalism leads to arrogant decision making. Brexit. QED | |||
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"Real brexiters
Brexit means Brexit
Theresa May supported remain and voted remain. Fact. "You wanted everyone to support her unconditionally. Fact. She has delivered Brexit means Brexit. Fact. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. No-one is denying the huge help that the polish and other foreign pilots gave during the battle of Britain. My point is that it may not have got that far in the first place. The government could have capitulated before hand, it could have crumbled at the first sign of the blitz, but it didn't. No other nation stood with us at that point. It was Britain vs the Nazis. And Britain said enough was enough. That "blitz spirit" so derided these days was the motivation to fight back, not accept defeat. The battle of Britain and the rest of the war was born from that. " Just to correct your understanding of history... The Blitz came after the events widely now described as the Battle of Britain. The blitz was in fact a critical tactical mistake made by Goerring and Hitler as the relentless attacks on the RAF largely stopped at a time when all RAF reserves were expended and aircraft could not be built as fast as they were being destroyed. Goerring and Hitler decided to test the will of the British population by taking the focus off the RAF and onto the big populous cities. The blitz was a terrible time but for the RAF it gave them a chance to regroup and aircraft losses were significantly reduced. As was stated earlier, it helps if you know history because if you know where you came from, you can better prepare for where you want to go. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. No-one is denying the huge help that the polish and other foreign pilots gave during the battle of Britain. My point is that it may not have got that far in the first place. The government could have capitulated before hand, it could have crumbled at the first sign of the blitz, but it didn't. No other nation stood with us at that point. It was Britain vs the Nazis. And Britain said enough was enough. That "blitz spirit" so derided these days was the motivation to fight back, not accept defeat. The battle of Britain and the rest of the war was born from that. Just to correct your understanding of history... The Blitz came after the events widely now described as the Battle of Britain. The blitz was in fact a critical tactical mistake made by Goerring and Hitler as the relentless attacks on the RAF largely stopped at a time when all RAF reserves were expended and aircraft could not be built as fast as they were being destroyed. Goerring and Hitler decided to test the will of the British population by taking the focus off the RAF and onto the big populous cities. The blitz was a terrible time but for the RAF it gave them a chance to regroup and aircraft losses were significantly reduced. As was stated earlier, it helps if you know history because if you know where you came from, you can better prepare for where you want to go." so you don't count the "relentless attacks on the RAF" as the first signs of the blitz or "blitzkrieg"? Right oh. | |||
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"Do you actually know what blitz Krieg means? It means lightning war and describes the Nazis technique of throwing huge amounts of motorised armour and troops at an enemy as fast as possible with the hope that this overwhelming force would conquer everything in its path before it ran out of supplies. The folly of attacking Russia and the terrible toll that took on both sides is what finished Hitler off. He over reached because he believed he was invincible and couldn’t accept his failure intil the russians were streets away from his berlin bunker. The bombing of major cities which became known as the Blitz was thought by the Nazis to be the best way to keep a beaten UK in check at the time as they moved their troops to Africa to try and gain control of the oilfields. It was all about reacting to the moment and we were lucky that the war in other parts of the world became more pressing. History is important and understanding it gives you a much better idea of what sacrifices our forces and civilians had to make and what they had to endure. " Yes thankyou. I also went to primary school, and didn't miss that afternoon. But thanks for the recap. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail." What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots. | |||
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"Do you actually know what blitz Krieg means? It means lightning war and describes the Nazis technique of throwing huge amounts of motorised armour and troops at an enemy as fast as possible with the hope that this overwhelming force would conquer everything in its path before it ran out of supplies. The folly of attacking Russia and the terrible toll that took on both sides is what finished Hitler off. He over reached because he believed he was invincible and couldn’t accept his failure intil the russians were streets away from his berlin bunker. The bombing of major cities which became known as the Blitz was thought by the Nazis to be the best way to keep a beaten UK in check at the time as they moved their troops to Africa to try and gain control of the oilfields. It was all about reacting to the moment and we were lucky that the war in other parts of the world became more pressing. History is important and understanding it gives you a much better idea of what sacrifices our forces and civilians had to make and what they had to endure. Yes thankyou. I also went to primary school, and didn't miss that afternoon. But thanks for the recap. "Asinine is the word you’re groping for | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots. "If you read the thread, it's brought but by a remoaner on the second post. | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots.
If you read the thread, it's brought but by a remoaner on the second post. "Can't managed not to name-call can you?
I observed that use of this misunderstanding of history. Claiming to be exceptional and able to win "alone" is part of the leavers narrative.
Remain does not employ this vocabulary or imagined, sepia-tinted history.
You have demonstrated this admirably | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots.
If you read the thread, it's brought but by a remoaner on the second post.
Can't managed not to name-call can you?
I observed that use of this misunderstanding of history. Claiming to be exceptional and able to win "alone" is part of the leavers narrative.
Remain does not employ this vocabulary or imagined, sepia-tinted history.
You have demonstrated this admirably "It's not name calling. It's an accurate description of a particular behaviour. Centy is a brexiteer for example. And surely it stands to reason that the Remain campaign wouldn't try and remind us about events from ww2, it wouldn't fit the narrative. Surely even you can see that? | |||
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" What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots. "It is all about historical context making people prepared. You see some people colour their own version of history because they can’t be bothered to ascertain the true facts. This colours their judgement. Other people can’t even be bothered to read the history of a thread to understand where itcane fromand this colours their judgement on the responses that they make. Iris just abouthow some people can’t be bothered to open a history whilst thetscabt be bothered to look at the history of a thread. | |||
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" What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots.
It is all about historical context making people prepared.
You see some people colour their own version of history because they can’t be bothered to ascertain the true facts. This colours their judgement.
Other people can’t even be bothered to read the history of a thread to understand where itcane fromand this colours their judgement on the responses that they make.
Iris just abouthow some people can’t be bothered to open a history whilst thetscabt be bothered to look at the history of a thread."Sherry? | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots.
If you read the thread, it's brought but by a remoaner on the second post.
Can't managed not to name-call can you?
I observed that use of this misunderstanding of history. Claiming to be exceptional and able to win "alone" is part of the leavers narrative.
Remain does not employ this vocabulary or imagined, sepia-tinted history.
You have demonstrated this admirably
It's not name calling. It's an accurate description of a particular behaviour. Centy is a brexiteer for example. And surely it stands to reason that the Remain campaign wouldn't try and remind us about events from ww2, it wouldn't fit the narrative. Surely even you can see that?""Remoaner" isn't name calling?
Interesting that remainers haven't coined phrases and names to try to shut-down and dismiss descent.
The point that I made was that the narrative of Britain "stood alone" and will be just fine doing so again is a false one.
A narrative about standing together to defeat a foe would be a very sensible one for remain to use but discussing. Brexit in terms of war and conflict leads to crap negotiating.
QED. Again
Silly man | |||
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" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots.
If you read the thread, it's brought but by a remoaner on the second post.
Can't managed not to name-call can you?
I observed that use of this misunderstanding of history. Claiming to be exceptional and able to win "alone" is part of the leavers narrative.
Remain does not employ this vocabulary or imagined, sepia-tinted history.
You have demonstrated this admirably
It's not name calling. It's an accurate description of a particular behaviour. Centy is a brexiteer for example. And surely it stands to reason that the Remain campaign wouldn't try and remind us about events from ww2, it wouldn't fit the narrative. Surely even you can see that?
"Remoaner" isn't name calling?
Interesting that remainers haven't coined phrases and names to try to shut-down and dismiss descent.
The point that I made was that the narrative of Britain "stood alone" and will be just fine doing so again is a false one.
A narrative about standing together to defeat a foe would be a very sensible one for remain to use but discussing. Brexit in terms of war and conflict leads to crap negotiating.
QED. Again
Silly man "Well i guess it is name calling, but as one of many on here who voted remain, i feel completely justified using it against people such as yourself. | |||
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| Reply privately |
" So, what stopped the government from asking for a peaceful capitulation to Hitler during the blitz? Who cares...you are so far off topic Bless, the topic raised is that the British people think that they won the war on their own. Of course this is false. However, if Britain had capitulated to Hitler there wouldn't have been a war. Only Nazi Europe. Great Britain was where the fight back began, and the fight back started alone. If you said that in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway or any of the other occupied countries, you would hopefully get very well schooled. Many, many countries retained “free” forces that fought against the Nazi’s and fortunately for us, the English Channel meant that we retained some protection against a far superior military machine. Britain worked with all the free forces to support and conduct guerrilla actions right across Europe. To imagine that this was a purely British fightback is not just a denial of history but a projection of total fantasy. Its not as clear cut as you try to spin it though. In terms of occupied land and territory, Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany during the battle of Britain. USA had not yet officially entered the war, and all of mainland Europe was under the control of Germany. All the countries you listed, France, Belgium, Poland, Netherlands, etc had been conquered by the Nazis, and were under Nazi occupation. There is no spin, it is just a fact. Without Polish RAF pilots, the Luftwaffe would likely have prevailed. Are you trying to say that the efforts of men and women whose country had been over-run by Nazi’s are less worthy than the efforts of Brits in the relative safety of their island? There should be nothing taken away from the efforts of anyone who helped defend Britain from the Nazi’s but the re-writing of history by the victors has had a very unpleasant legacy on many in the U.K. who are simply unable to comprehend or accept that the defence of the realm was only possible because of the help of pilots, fighters and Resistence operatives from all over Europe and indeed from across the world. “We” did not begin the fightback. “We” were as militarily damaged and humiliated as the rest of Europe was and were incredibly fortunate that the English Channel enabled refuge for a while. The international cooperation that took place after the BEF humiliation and Dunkirk retreat was the reason that eventually the Allied Forces prevailed over The Nazi’s. As an aside, my wife was born in Russia and basic history in Russian schools contains no mention of the Western and Southern Fronts, nor of the NE convoys. Russia defeated the Nazi’s all by themselves. The point being that when the victors paint their version of history, it sometimes requires a more detailed look at the historical facts to get to the truth. The over-riding conclusion of the events that led to the start and end of WW2 is that close international cooperation prevailed over self indulgent Nationalism. And it took great trust and cooperation to prevail. What's with the mania of WW2 as a vehicle for credible debate around matters in 2018? The events of the past deeply twisted by hearsay and everyone has their own "personal" version of the truth. Idiots.
If you read the thread, it's brought but by a remoaner on the second post.
Can't managed not to name-call can you?
I observed that use of this misunderstanding of history. Claiming to be exceptional and able to win "alone" is part of the leavers narrative.
Remain does not employ this vocabulary or imagined, sepia-tinted history.
You have demonstrated this admirably
It's not name calling. It's an accurate description of a particular behaviour. Centy is a brexiteer for example. And surely it stands to reason that the Remain campaign wouldn't try and remind us about events from ww2, it wouldn't fit the narrative. Surely even you can see that?
"Remoaner" isn't name calling?
Interesting that remainers haven't coined phrases and names to try to shut-down and dismiss descent.
The point that I made was that the narrative of Britain "stood alone" and will be just fine doing so again is a false one.
A narrative about standing together to defeat a foe would be a very sensible one for remain to use but discussing. Brexit in terms of war and conflict leads to crap negotiating.
QED. Again
Silly man
Well i guess it is name calling, but as one of many on here who voted remain, i feel completely justified using it against people such as yourself. "It doesn't matter what you voted if you propagate this level of self-regard and deny people's right to disagree. Bored. Fatigue eventually sets in | |||
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"I think your argument is probably giving those leavers a laugh as I believe you are both remainers although I could be wrong? The bigger picture is that people like emmab**e, centy, and at least three others I could name are great ones for twisting the narrative to suit their pov and will be getting a buzz out of this. My opinion is that you should respect history and geography but be pragmatic about the present day and not get lost in platitudes about nationalism or populism because the relatves of mine who fought in the second world war and afghanistan had no truck with that and distanced themselves from the neo nazi flag waving of people like the NF BNP and UKIP" Interestingly my, South Asian, family served in both world wars and in more recent conflicts. We aren't alone although we aren't a part of the story... | |||
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"No issue with all the no deal preparations, but they should have been done from day 1. The EU has never believed the UK would walk away, which is why they have had the upper hand in negotiations. In the same way they never believed the UK would vote leave when Cameron sought some commitments to change prior to the referendum and have absolutely nothing. I would have the vote in parliament, and if it fails cease all negotiations with EU and do everything in my power to have things ready for 29 March on no deal basis." Compared to the horror for the uk that would be a walk away would bring the Eu will see little impact There is zero that the Eu NEEDS from the UK there is an unknown and vast amount the UK RELIES on from being an Eu member | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. " I think if you read back through what you wrote above, you will likely see the reason why you are so perplexed. If you actually looked at the real world you might see clearer. -Matt | |||
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"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. The thing is though the EU actually thought they had given a lot of ground to Cameron and they thought they had given him enough concessions to keep us sweet. The British people didn't see it like that, they thought Cameron got breadcrumbs and that the EU was taking the piss with what they 'offered'. The British people and the EU are miles apart on their thinking, we are simply not compatible with them so it really is best for us to cut ties with them now and leave. " You don't speak for the British people. Full stop. | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. I think if you read back through what you wrote above, you will likely see the reason why you are so perplexed. If you actually looked at the real world you might see clearer. -Matt" Soooo nothing to add, business as usual. | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. " In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King. | |||
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"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. The thing is though the EU actually thought they had given a lot of ground to Cameron and they thought they had given him enough concessions to keep us sweet. The British people didn't see it like that, they thought Cameron got breadcrumbs and that the EU was taking the piss with what they 'offered'. The British people and the EU are miles apart on their thinking, we are simply not compatible with them so it really is best for us to cut ties with them now and leave. You don't speak for the British people. Full stop." AND YOU DO.think again The EU is rotten to the core .if you want to support someone or something that can insult a leader of a particular nation then you cannot possibly be one of its people. They've treat us as second class for too long . it is time to leave | |||
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".... The EU is rotten to the core .if you want to support someone or something that can insult a leader of a particular nation then you cannot possibly be one of its people. They've treat us as second class for too long . it is time to leave " Just because you have read these things somewhere, does not make them true. If you possess the attribute of being able to question the things that you read perhaps you can explain..., How is the EU “rotten to the core”? We are (at least for now) the EU. The EU is a collection of nations - which bit is rotten to the core? Whilst you are at it, who has treated us as second class citizens and compared to who? Some proof of this would be useful because last time I looked, “We” had the best of all deals in the EU - far better than any other country. You see, just repeating ad nauseous things that you read online without even trying to question them just won’t do. How can you be taken seriously if you can’t back up your empty words? | |||
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"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation." Maybe a bit too simple. Depends on the nature of the economies. Are they export driven etc. I imagine for economies with a strong reliance on tourism that frictionless currency would be good...but I'd have to see the data. Why didn't you include Ireland in your analysis? Data doesn't fit the hypothesis very well... | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. I think if you read back through what you wrote above, you will likely see the reason why you are so perplexed. If you actually looked at the real world you might see clearer. -Matt Soooo nothing to add, business as usual. "Correct, you don't. As usual. -Matt | |||
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"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation. Maybe a bit too simple. Depends on the nature of the economies. Are they export driven etc. I imagine for economies with a strong reliance on tourism that frictionless currency would be good...but I'd have to see the data. Why didn't you include Ireland in your analysis? Data doesn't fit the hypothesis very well..." I didn't include Ireland because I gave up reading the documents...... | |||
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"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation. Maybe a bit too simple. Depends on the nature of the economies. Are they export driven etc. I imagine for economies with a strong reliance on tourism that frictionless currency would be good...but I'd have to see the data. Why didn't you include Ireland in your analysis? Data doesn't fit the hypothesis very well... I didn't include Ireland because I gave up reading the documents......" But you seem to be making the case that the euro made poor countries poor | |||
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"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation. Maybe a bit too simple. Depends on the nature of the economies. Are they export driven etc. I imagine for economies with a strong reliance on tourism that frictionless currency would be good...but I'd have to see the data. Why didn't you include Ireland in your analysis? Data doesn't fit the hypothesis very well... I didn't include Ireland because I gave up reading the documents...... But you seem to be making the case that the euro made poor countries poor " Isn't it more like the Euro stops poor countries getting economically richer? | |||
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"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation. Maybe a bit too simple. Depends on the nature of the economies. Are they export driven etc. I imagine for economies with a strong reliance on tourism that frictionless currency would be good...but I'd have to see the data. Why didn't you include Ireland in your analysis? Data doesn't fit the hypothesis very well... I didn't include Ireland because I gave up reading the documents...... But you seem to be making the case that the euro made poor countries poor Isn't it more like the Euro stops poor countries getting economically richer?" Possibly....or that the Euro allows the wealthy to continue to earn enough to bail out the economically depressed. Either way, it is IMHO, one answer to the request for an example for institutional corruption.....it isn't exactly fair is it? | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. I think if you read back through what you wrote above, you will likely see the reason why you are so perplexed. If you actually looked at the real world you might see clearer. -Matt Soooo nothing to add, business as usual.
Correct, you don't. As usual.
-Matt" "I know you are you said you are, so what am I then!" Captain of the school debating team I assume?! | |||
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"Fascinating history to the Euro. Remember when the Berlin Wall came down? And there was talk of German re-unification? Well, the French have had some bad experiences of a bigger Germany. So their president - Mitterand, I think - spotted an opportunity. Re-unification and accession of an enlarged need approval by the Council of Ministers. The French said yes on one condition - there would be a new currency common to countries. The idea being the Germans could never dominate because there economy would be tied to the value of the weakest. The Euro was the price Germany paid for re-unification. " There was also a history of race to the bottom devaluations against the gold standard. If the euro is so bad for poor countries, why do they continue to want to join the EU? | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. " Weak beyond belief! I am a remainer and I have family who have fought in the Second World War and Afghanistan and we are all proud of our nation so stop churning out your corrupt and contemptible bile about remainers being traitors. | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. Weak beyond belief! I am a remainer and I have family who have fought in the Second World War and Afghanistan and we are all proud of our nation so stop churning out your corrupt and contemptible bile about remainers being traitors." Not remainers, remoaners. | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. I think if you read back through what you wrote above, you will likely see the reason why you are so perplexed. If you actually looked at the real world you might see clearer. -Matt Soooo nothing to add, business as usual.
Correct, you don't. As usual.
-Matt
"I know you are you said you are, so what am I then!" Captain of the school debating team I assume?!"Yes, I thought I try a level you might relate to or understand. Starting at comment about "remoaners, libtards, and snowflakes" hardly shows you actually have anything of any substance to add to add to a discussion does it? -Matt | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. I think if you read back through what you wrote above, you will likely see the reason why you are so perplexed. If you actually looked at the real world you might see clearer. -Matt Soooo nothing to add, business as usual.
Correct, you don't. As usual.
-Matt
"I know you are you said you are, so what am I then!" Captain of the school debating team I assume?!
Yes, I thought I would try a level you might relate to or understand. Starting with the comment "remoaners, libtards, and snowflakes", hardly shows you actually have anything of any substance to add to add to a discussion does it?
-Matt"Fixed it for you. | |||
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"I am always perplexed how remoaners, libtards and snowflakes seem to salivate at the prospect of this great country of ours failing.They can't wait to talk it down and belittle the accomplishments of our forefathers, and seem to refuse to entertain the thought that we might, just might survive without suckling on the teat of Europe. They claim any sign of national pride is unjustified and dangerous while ignoring far worse displays by our fellow Europeans. *waves to France, Scotland and Ireland*. I do wonder why they stay in a land they clearly hate. I'm just glad that their's is a minority view. I think if you read back through what you wrote above, you will likely see the reason why you are so perplexed. If you actually looked at the real world you might see clearer. -Matt Soooo nothing to add, business as usual.
Correct, you don't. As usual.
-Matt
"I know you are you said you are, so what am I then!" Captain of the school debating team I assume?!
Yes, I thought I try a level you might relate to or understand. Starting at comment about "remoaners, libtards, and snowflakes" hardly shows you actually have anything of any substance to add to add to a discussion does it?
-Matt"Neither does your reference to leavers as "cunts" on another thread Matt. | |||
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"Fascinating history to the Euro. Remember when the Berlin Wall came down? And there was talk of German re-unification? Well, the French have had some bad experiences of a bigger Germany. So their president - Mitterand, I think - spotted an opportunity. Re-unification and accession of an enlarged need approval by the Council of Ministers. The French said yes on one condition - there would be a new currency common to countries. The idea being the Germans could never dominate because there economy would be tied to the value of the weakest. The Euro was the price Germany paid for re-unification. There was also a history of race to the bottom devaluations against the gold standard. If the euro is so bad for poor countries, why do they continue to want to join the EU? " That was already answered for you earlier in the thread wasn't it? It's because they can continue to be bailed out by the richer EU countries when their economies go bankrupt, as we saw with Greece. Rep of Ireland also had a bail out not so long ago didn't it. | |||
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"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation. Maybe a bit too simple. Depends on the nature of the economies. Are they export driven etc. I imagine for economies with a strong reliance on tourism that frictionless currency would be good...but I'd have to see the data. Why didn't you include Ireland in your analysis? Data doesn't fit the hypothesis very well... I didn't include Ireland because I gave up reading the documents...... But you seem to be making the case that the euro made poor countries poor Isn't it more like the Euro stops poor countries getting economically richer? Possibly....or that the Euro allows the wealthy to continue to earn enough to bail out the economically depressed. Either way, it is IMHO, one answer to the request for an example for institutional corruption.....it isn't exactly fair is it?" It's not fair on other countries outside of the EU either. The EU is a protection racket. It's funny how so many of the EU luvvies constantly slam Donald Trump for his protectionist 'America first' attitude, while being blind to the protectionist policies of the EU. The EU's external tariff barrier keeps other poor regions like Africa and African countries poor because they are shut out of the EU market. | |||
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"Fascinating history to the Euro. Remember when the Berlin Wall came down? And there was talk of German re-unification? Well, the French have had some bad experiences of a bigger Germany. So their president - Mitterand, I think - spotted an opportunity. Re-unification and accession of an enlarged need approval by the Council of Ministers. The French said yes on one condition - there would be a new currency common to countries. The idea being the Germans could never dominate because there economy would be tied to the value of the weakest. The Euro was the price Germany paid for re-unification. There was also a history of race to the bottom devaluations against the gold standard. If the euro is so bad for poor countries, why do they continue to want to join the EU? That was already answered for you earlier in the thread wasn't it? It's because they can continue to be bailed out by the richer EU countries when their economies go bankrupt, as we saw with Greece. Rep of Ireland also had a bail out not so long ago didn't it. " Basic | |||
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"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation." So as evidence of the EU being rotten to the core you regurgitate a subjective opinion about the Euro (a currency) which would hold no water whatsoever under even the slightest critical analysis. I ask again - where is your evidence that the EU is rotten to the core and that we (UK) are treated like second class citizens? You can’t provide any because neither is true and you are simply doing the work of billionaire elites by regurgitating nonsense that fits their agenda. Don’t be embarrassed, the U.K. has a great history of its ordinary folk being manipulated by the wealthy - you are not alone. You could help yourself though by just questioning what you read instead of salivating at the thought of it being true. | |||
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"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation. Maybe a bit too simple. Depends on the nature of the economies. Are they export driven etc. I imagine for economies with a strong reliance on tourism that frictionless currency would be good...but I'd have to see the data. Why didn't you include Ireland in your analysis? Data doesn't fit the hypothesis very well... I didn't include Ireland because I gave up reading the documents...... But you seem to be making the case that the euro made poor countries poor Isn't it more like the Euro stops poor countries getting economically richer? Possibly....or that the Euro allows the wealthy to continue to earn enough to bail out the economically depressed. Either way, it is IMHO, one answer to the request for an example for institutional corruption.....it isn't exactly fair is it? It's not fair on other countries outside of the EU either. The EU is a protection racket. It's funny how so many of the EU luvvies constantly slam Donald Trump for his protectionist 'America first' attitude, while being blind to the protectionist policies of the EU. The EU's external tariff barrier keeps other poor regions like Africa and African countries poor because they are shut out of the EU market. " There is good reason why there are external tariffs but if the Wetherspoons guy can’t figure it out, I would hardly expect your ordinary Brexiter in the street to understand. It does sound good for the agenda though to refer to the EU as a protection racket doesn’t it? I mean why bother with tariffs when you may as well just export all your remaining industrial and agricultural industry overseas. Who needs manufacturing and agriculture anyway? Better not bother having good jobs in manufacturing nor a home grown farming industry when we can just give all that to the rest of the world. Cheap is good eh? Fuck the jobs. | |||
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"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. The Leave campaign ran on the basis that we would easily get a trade deal at least as good as the one we enjoy now without any of the costs and responsibilities. Also that it would have negligible impact on people's lives and finances. Quite the opposite in fact. That it would enhance everything. You appeared to not have believed this. Do you think that was the same for everyone who voted leave? If they expected to get what they were told in the "manifesto" they thought they were getting but aren't what then? How can they communicate that before it's imposed upon them?" The remain campaign ran on the basis of 'remain and reform', without ever saying what reform there should be. The remain campaign ran on the basis that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union. The remain campaign constantly stated that we were not tied down by EU rules, regulations and laws...and yet now say we are totally entrenched in them. They also said there would never be an EU Army. They also said we would have an immediate recession, 18% drop in house prices, 800,000 more unemployed, 6% drop in GDP, all for just voting remain, and it would only get worse when we actually left. | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance."So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country! | |||
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"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
"The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Evidence of the EU being as rotten to the core as any other political institution is subjective. But how about this for a start. The Euro is a tool that falsely deflates the currency for the stronger industrial nations due to the weakness of the lesser nations. This allows the Germans, as an example to export greater numbers of their goods as they would have done during the days of the DM. The cost to the weaker nations is a falsely inflated currency which leaves them poorer. The rules that govern joining the EU would 'encourage' or even force membership of the Euro because countries now joining the EU have smaller and weaker economies and again this would assist in keeping the value lower for the larger economies to the cost of the weaker ones. Tell the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese, (and probably others but I haven't yet researched this as the reports tend to be a cure for insomnia) that it isn't the inflated value of the Euro that has assisted in their economic woes. Ps. The source of this is the Central European Bank....hardly a European sceptic organisation. Maybe a bit too simple. Depends on the nature of the economies. Are they export driven etc. I imagine for economies with a strong reliance on tourism that frictionless currency would be good...but I'd have to see the data. Why didn't you include Ireland in your analysis? Data doesn't fit the hypothesis very well... I didn't include Ireland because I gave up reading the documents...... But you seem to be making the case that the euro made poor countries poor Isn't it more like the Euro stops poor countries getting economically richer? Possibly....or that the Euro allows the wealthy to continue to earn enough to bail out the economically depressed. Either way, it is IMHO, one answer to the request for an example for institutional corruption.....it isn't exactly fair is it? It's not fair on other countries outside of the EU either. The EU is a protection racket. It's funny how so many of the EU luvvies constantly slam Donald Trump for his protectionist 'America first' attitude, while being blind to the protectionist policies of the EU. The EU's external tariff barrier keeps other poor regions like Africa and African countries poor because they are shut out of the EU market. " What is blocking out African countries ? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you? "The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"who would have agreed a better deal? and what would it have been?I think its pretty clear that the eu deal is the only one and they were never going to make it easy for us to leave "how dare we have the audacity" .They need our contributions to prop up the eu so i for one never thought we were going to get much out of them.If they had been a bit more sympathetic and flexible when Cameron went to them with the concerns of the british people this would never have happened. The Leave campaign ran on the basis that we would easily get a trade deal at least as good as the one we enjoy now without any of the costs and responsibilities. Also that it would have negligible impact on people's lives and finances. Quite the opposite in fact. That it would enhance everything. You appeared to not have believed this. Do you think that was the same for everyone who voted leave? If they expected to get what they were told in the "manifesto" they thought they were getting but aren't what then? How can they communicate that before it's imposed upon them? The remain campaign ran on the basis of 'remain and reform', without ever saying what reform there should be. The remain campaign ran on the basis that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union. The remain campaign constantly stated that we were not tied down by EU rules, regulations and laws...and yet now say we are totally entrenched in them. They also said there would never be an EU Army. They also said we would have an immediate recession, 18% drop in house prices, 800,000 more unemployed, 6% drop in GDP, all for just voting remain, and it would only get worse when we actually left. " Now you're making stuff up. Remain means remain except the definition is perfectly clear. Existing terms. If you want to change things you change things within the normal process over however many years it takes. Just like UK law. Again the tosh that because it wasn't a complete disaster it's all fine. Your ambitions so meagre now. Our currency dropped in value and our GDP fell, as predicted. Luckily we hot an unexpected uptick in the global economy keeping all nations more buoyant. We were not tied down by EU rules as we agreed with and created nearly all of them. Now we have surrendered that right by leaving. You are wilfully blind. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore."You have shown yourself up to be woefully ignorant about history already on this thread and perhaps constantly looking for justification of your opinion is not what you should be doing? All of the Pilots noted above (along with the 10,000 Free French Army Forces that were based in the UK) had the motivation to fight the Nazi's. The Polish pilots were at war with the Nazi's as were the Commonwealth pilots, other Pilots from invaded countries were "fighting back." You just need to read some history and get your vision of this era into context instead of trying to justify your flawed opinion that just keeps getting exposed each time you make a claim on this thread. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore."Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from. "What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?"I think it’s to show the uk can be a success in the works if we have the help of immigrants. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?"A remainer brought it up first on the thread didn't they? Did you watch the Stig Abell LBC clip on YouTube about it? I posted a link to it earlier on the thread. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?
I think it’s to show the uk can be a success in the works if we have the help of immigrants. "Or that immigrants need the generosity of the UK in order to succeed. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?
A remainer brought it up first on the thread didn't they? Did you watch the Stig Abell LBC clip on YouTube about it? I posted a link to it earlier on the thread. "Well anyway I don't understand the point you made! does that mean an English pilot flying a F-35B is not fighting for England these days? and no I haven't watched your I'll go back and watch it now...will you watch this one please :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELbSsLXNT_w | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?
A remainer brought it up first on the thread didn't they? Did you watch the Stig Abell LBC clip on YouTube about it? I posted a link to it earlier on the thread.
Well anyway I don't understand the point you made! does that mean an English pilot flying a F-35B is not fighting for England these days?
and no I haven't watched your I'll go back and watch it now...will you watch this one please :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELbSsLXNT_w"That video is over a year and a half old! hardly relevant now. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?
A remainer brought it up first on the thread didn't they? Did you watch the Stig Abell LBC clip on YouTube about it? I posted a link to it earlier on the thread.
Well anyway I don't understand the point you made! does that mean an English pilot flying a F-35B is not fighting for England these days?
and no I haven't watched your I'll go back and watch it now...will you watch this one please :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELbSsLXNT_w
That video is over a year and a half old! hardly relevant now."It is relevant now, as remainers are still behaving now in the way Stig Abell described in the video. You only have to read this thread to see the behaviour of remainers hasn't changed. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?
A remainer brought it up first on the thread didn't they? Did you watch the Stig Abell LBC clip on YouTube about it? I posted a link to it earlier on the thread.
Well anyway I don't understand the point you made! does that mean an English pilot flying a F-35B is not fighting for England these days?
and no I haven't watched your I'll go back and watch it now...will you watch this one please :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELbSsLXNT_w
That video is over a year and a half old! hardly relevant now.
It is relevant now, as remainers are still behaving now in the way Stig Abell described in the video. You only have to read this thread to see the behaviour of remainers hasn't changed. "It's not the narrative I've encountered. I'd Encourage both sides to leave that area well alone.... You watched that Youtube clip yet? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?
A remainer brought it up first on the thread didn't they? Did you watch the Stig Abell LBC clip on YouTube about it? I posted a link to it earlier on the thread.
Well anyway I don't understand the point you made! does that mean an English pilot flying a F-35B is not fighting for England these days?
and no I haven't watched your I'll go back and watch it now...will you watch this one please :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELbSsLXNT_w
That video is over a year and a half old! hardly relevant now.
It is relevant now, as remainers are still behaving now in the way Stig Abell described in the video. You only have to read this thread to see the behaviour of remainers hasn't changed. "Do you get all your info off you tube? I have talked to veterans and my father in law was a navigator in lancasters and you are talking rot. You are so bloody ignorant it beggars belief. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from.
What's your point? Why do people keep bringing up WW2?
A remainer brought it up first on the thread didn't they? Did you watch the Stig Abell LBC clip on YouTube about it? I posted a link to it earlier on the thread.
Well anyway I don't understand the point you made! does that mean an English pilot flying a F-35B is not fighting for England these days?
and no I haven't watched your I'll go back and watch it now...will you watch this one please :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELbSsLXNT_w
That video is over a year and a half old! hardly relevant now.
It is relevant now, as remainers are still behaving now in the way Stig Abell described in the video. You only have to read this thread to see the behaviour of remainers hasn't changed.
Do you get all your info off you tube? I have talked to veterans and my father in law was a navigator in lancasters and you are talking rot. You are so bloody ignorant it beggars belief."Are you talking to me or Centaur? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"There are two things at play here. May is trying to create a sense of crisis to scare MPs into supporting her deal when momentum for a people's vote is what is growing. Together with delaying the Parliamentary vote it's an attempt to bounce MPs into supporting her plan as there's no time to do anything else. This is, of course, untrue, because an extension to Article 50 would be forthcoming. The second thing, which is only now becoming apparent to me, is this WWII/British Empire nostalgia. Our parents' generation, and my own grew up in peace and security but watching sanitised technicolor war films. We haven't "proved" ourselves even though we define ourselves with "Keep Calm and Carry On". A national crisis has been created from nothing that we can "survive" and "live through" and feel worthy. It's older people more influenced by the tail end of the UK as a great power who are most influenced by this. The first is a cynical political ploy. The second is the country still dealing with not being quite as important as it once was. Ironically the EU allowed us to continue to have significant global influence well after it should have waned.
Too many people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the war.
That somehow Britain “won” the war but not the peace, because Germany is the top dog in Europe, not the UK.
The hate towards Germany usually gets disguised as EU-bashing. But sometimes the poison shows through.
If nothing else good comes of Brexit, I hope it will be a realisation of Britain’s true place in the world and better sense of perspective.
Clinging on to nostalgia about WW2 does nothing to help. As a country we will never move on until we learn to give it up. were is this chip were are all these posts about the war from leavers it’s bullshit remainders use this to belittle leavers how often is there shit about the war apart from remianers spouting of shit about it ?
There is a lot of comparison made to it. "We survived the war". "We pulled together in the Blitz". "We stood alone".
The vocabulary of conflict and the myth that the UK achieved what it did without help. Without being part of a much, much larger group.
You really haven't heard or read anything like this?
Who helped the UK to not surrender or make peace with nazi Germany during the blitz, which as you must know, happened before the USA joined the war in December 1941?
Nobody except for; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Egypt, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa...
Obviously that's only the start of the list.
Vain-glorious arrogance has brought us to where we are now.
And those troops were here in 1940? Literally fighting back against the Nazis during the blitz? Amazing.
Actually. Yes. They were also supplying resources.
Here's the Battle of Britain list of pilots:
Poland
New Zealand
Canada
Czechoslovakia
Belgium
Austral
South Africa
France
Ireland
United States
Southern Rhodesia
Jamaica Jamaica
Barbados
Newfoundland
Northern Rhodesia
The RAF Roll of Honour recognises 574 pilots, from countries other than the United Kingdom, as flying at least one authorized, operational sortie with an eligible unit during the period between 10 July to 31 October 1940, alongside 2,353 British pilots.
Alone? Arrogance.
So all of those countries were at war with nazi germany during the Battle of Britain, were they? You've even named at least one neutral country!
The pilots were from those countries and they flew because of their conscience and desire to stop the nazis and believe it or not some may have come from a country that was neutral. Thats a spurious and disrespectful point to raise but then maybe conscientious behaviour doesnt sit well with you?
The fact remains that those pilots were acting as individuals, not as representatives of their country's government's. And that is the point you're choosing you ignore.
Those pilots also flew in British supplied RAF aircraft during the battle of Britain without which they would've never even got off the ground. The UK which was the only unconquered, unoccupied land in Europe at war with the Nazis during the battle of Britain gave foreign pilots a base to fly from. "Surely that can't be true? Great Britain is a steaming turd that can't even tie it's own shoe laces without everyone else's help? I know this because a self loathing liberal crippled with white guilt told me so. | |||
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