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"Oopps, i refer to Northern Ireland btw " It was the UK who voted to leave not the the EU! It was the UK who signed up to the Good Friday Agreement - the EU just helped facilities the peace. Before we triggered A50 the UK should have sorted the problem of the border. We forget that the UK doesn't rule the world - international treaties do, and WTO RULES requires borders between states. Those who lead the leave campaigns said they could sort it with technology - yet to be "developed" - they should have developed it before they pressed the button! Leave will blame everybody but themselves for the failures which are now coming to light! | |||
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"Oopps, i refer to Northern Ireland btw It was the UK who voted to leave not the the EU! It was the UK who signed up to the Good Friday Agreement - the EU just helped facilities the peace. Before we triggered A50 the UK should have sorted the problem of the border. We forget that the UK doesn't rule the world - international treaties do, and WTO RULES requires borders between states. Those who lead the leave campaigns said they could sort it with technology - yet to be "developed" - they should have developed it before they pressed the button! Leave will blame everybody but themselves for the failures which are now coming to light!" That is right, a brexitor doesnt respect the good friday agreement, now when reality catched up the blame game starts on the eu. | |||
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" Alternatively the UK could pack in the whole Brexit idea and get on with more important stuff. " That would be my choice. Let's sort out the failing education system, NHS, children in poverty etc. | |||
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"If it's to avert another armed civil conflict by renegotiation then i think its worth it., at leadt try to. The EU shouldn't be happy to allow a return to "the troubles" so hopefully can be averted. Im showing my age here, but im old enough to have served there in the 80s and the transformation is incredible. " I take it from your post that you are laying the weight of the NI issue at the EU's doorstep and not the UK's ? | |||
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"If it's to avert another armed civil conflict by renegotiation then i think its worth it., at leadt try to. The EU shouldn't be happy to allow a return to "the troubles" so hopefully can be averted. Im showing my age here, but im old enough to have served there in the 80s and the transformation is incredible. I take it from your post that you are laying the weight of the NI issue at the EU's doorstep and not the UK's ?" Actually no as it happens. The ni issue should take priority, and not be overtaken by political squabbling eithr from the eu or the uk | |||
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"There's nothing to renegotiate op, May's deal and the backstop respect the GFA and guarantee no hard borders. With that in place the chances of the conflict flaring up again are kept low. The DUP might not like the backstop but have no other choice but to accept it eventually. Alternatively the UK could pack in the whole Brexit idea and get on with more important stuff. " Ah but with mays deal the UK will not be allowed to make may more new deals with any other countries outside the EU. Well it can agree to deal but cannot implement them until the Irish border issue is sorted so another stalemate | |||
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"If it's to avert another armed civil conflict by renegotiation then i think its worth it., at leadt try to. The EU shouldn't be happy to allow a return to "the troubles" so hopefully can be averted. Im showing my age here, but im old enough to have served there in the 80s and the transformation is incredible. I take it from your post that you are laying the weight of the NI issue at the EU's doorstep and not the UK's ?" I could argue that your using the ni situation and the risk of conflict just to have your way | |||
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"There's nothing to renegotiate op, May's deal and the backstop respect the GFA and guarantee no hard borders. With that in place the chances of the conflict flaring up again are kept low. The DUP might not like the backstop but have no other choice but to accept it eventually. Alternatively the UK could pack in the whole Brexit idea and get on with more important stuff. Ah but with mays deal the UK will not be allowed to make may more new deals with any other countries outside the EU. Well it can agree to deal but cannot implement them until the Irish border issue is sorted so another stalemate " I thought that after the transition "May's deal" allowed the UK to do exactly that - trade deals with the world and hopefully have a UK/EU trade deal! | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning "If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her. And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?) | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)"As i understand it, If we go out without some sort of deal over the ni issue on marc 2019, then a hard border will occur in Ireland and ergo, likely resumption of conflict. Unless may's plan to scupper brexit works | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
As i understand it, If we go out without some sort of deal over the ni issue on marc 2019, then a hard border will occur in Ireland and ergo, likely resumption of conflict. Unless may's plan to scupper brexit works
"if there is a hard border returns , one of two things happen , reunification of Ireland Or all hell breaks loose , | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
As i understand it, If we go out without some sort of deal over the ni issue on marc 2019, then a hard border will occur in Ireland and ergo, likely resumption of conflict. Unless may's plan to scupper brexit works
if there is a hard border returns , one of two things happen , reunification of Ireland
Or all hell breaks loose , "Reunification wont go with loyalists either so conflict either way | |||
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" Alternatively the UK could pack in the whole Brexit idea and get on with more important stuff. Ah but with mays deal the UK will not be allowed to make may more new deals with any other countries outside the EU. Well it can agree to deal but cannot implement them until the Irish border issue is sorted so another stalemate " Well, if we do actually leave the EU & hence leave trade agreements with the 50 or so Countries we have through the EU, it will probably take 200 fucking years just to get back to where we are now & by that time Climate change will have supposedly killed everyone off anyway, so I really couldn't give a fuck because me, nor my kids nor my kids kids will ever see that fucking day anyway that we even get back to square one  | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
As i understand it, If we go out without some sort of deal over the ni issue on marc 2019, then a hard border will occur in Ireland and ergo, likely resumption of conflict. Unless may's plan to scupper brexit works
if there is a hard border returns , one of two things happen , reunification of Ireland
Or all hell breaks loose ,
Reunification wont go with loyalists either so conflict either way"Who have loyalists to blame ?? It's brexit and the uk government that are bringing it to this point The deal that's on offer gives northern Ireland best of both worlds ,it's themselves that are bringing the idea of united Ireland closer , take the deal back may , and very few in northern Ireland will want a United ireland , | |||
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" Alternatively the UK could pack in the whole Brexit idea and get on with more important stuff. " Yes. I would vote for that too, there are lots of more important things  | |||
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" Alternatively the UK could pack in the whole Brexit idea and get on with more important stuff. Yes. I would vote for that too, there are lots of more important things "This is the conclusion of any sane person. | |||
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"Good old juncker just said "Theres no room for renegotiation whatsoever ". So WTF is she doing.
"Buying time ....nothing substantial to the deal will change leaving 2 options ...hard brexit with no deal or stay in the union ...which will get put to the people | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning "No she havent, anyone knows that the deal and brexit woulnt work so she is doing everything to stay in the eu, there is a reason why most of the brexit bench have resigned, cos reality is catching up lol. | |||
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"For the last 2 years May has been banging the drum saying no deal is better than a bad deal ...now saying no deal will be suicide ...she has done everything to stay in the eu including not allowing her brexit secretaries to do the job they were put in place to do "If she pulls it off and gets another referendum and keeps us in EU she'll become the stuff of legends for some and Machiavellian villainy for others. | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore " IF it was her 'plan'.. if it pans out that way then its simply democracy in action however its looked at.. | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore " If go down this conspiracy theory, I agree. It also shines a light on her fellow MPs to challenge her and prevent this. Both tories and opposition. | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore " Democracy has always had one huge flaw from the very beginning and that is its voters.  | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore Democracy has always had one huge flaw from the very beginning and that is its voters. "especially the ones that don't like the results | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore " If we should stay in, it says more about what’s on offer from leaving the EU. It was always going to be shit deal vs no-deal. We knew this from day one. Does anyone except those with the most extreme views want a no-deal? | |||
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"Am I the only one that’s fed up with ‘ifs’ and ‘coulds’ In this whole shambolic situation.. No one knows what WILL happen for sure until it’s finally done " That’s not entirely true. We know it will be bad, but we just don’t know how bad. | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore IF it was her 'plan'.. if it pans out that way then its simply democracy in action however its looked at.." Exactly true. A 52-48 referendum result deserves a smozzly hot potch Brexit of half in half out proportions. It was obvious from day 1 this was going to be the end result, just taken 2.5 years of weasle words and platitudes to get us here. | |||
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"Am I the only one that’s fed up with ‘ifs’ and ‘coulds’ In this whole shambolic situation.. No one knows what WILL happen for sure until it’s finally done That’s not entirely true. We know it will be bad, but we just don’t know how bad. " Do we...? | |||
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"Am I the only one that’s fed up with ‘ifs’ and ‘coulds’ In this whole shambolic situation.. No one knows what WILL happen for sure until it’s finally done That’s not entirely true. We know it will be bad, but we just don’t know how bad. Do we...? " Yes 100% | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore IF it was her 'plan'.. if it pans out that way then its simply democracy in action however its looked at.. Exactly true. A 52-48 referendum result deserves a smozzly hot potch Brexit of half in half out proportions. It was obvious from day 1 this was going to be the end result, just taken 2.5 years of weasle words and platitudes to get us here." I suppose you can't argue that a near half half referendum result brings about a near half in half out result. Nearest thing to giving everyone half of what they wanted | |||
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"Am I the only one that’s fed up with ‘ifs’ and ‘coulds’ In this whole shambolic situation.. No one knows what WILL happen for sure until it’s finally done That’s not entirely true. We know it will be bad, but we just don’t know how bad. Do we...? Yes 100%" Well you can you give the lottery numbers as you seem to be psychic... | |||
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"There is another way. England to leave the United Kingdom. Then the English would only be fucking themselves instead of everyone else who lives on these islands." And create two land borders to solve ???? | |||
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i'm surprised moggsy and the ERG haven't put that forward!!!! | |||
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"There is another way. England to leave the United Kingdom. Then the English would only be fucking themselves instead of everyone else who lives on these islands." You seem to have forgot the Welsh wanted to leave too!  | |||
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"here is an idea... its radical... Since the brexiteers want to basically say "fuck you!" to the good friday agreement... and that same GFA was ratified and agreed in a referendum in both northern ireland and the republic... why don't they have a 2nd referendum on whether they should abide by the terms of the good friday agreement!!!!! its sheer genius!!!!! i'm surprised moggsy and the ERG haven't put that forward!!!!"There's no praise like self praise! | |||
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"There is another way. England to leave the United Kingdom. Then the English would only be fucking themselves instead of everyone else who lives on these islands. You seem to have forgot the Welsh wanted to leave too! "If the Welsh are daft enough to go down the rabbit hole with the English, crack on. | |||
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"here is an idea... its radical... Since the brexiteers want to basically say "fuck you!" to the good friday agreement... and that same GFA was ratified and agreed in a referendum in both northern ireland and the republic... why don't they have a 2nd referendum on whether they should abide by the terms of the good friday agreement!!!!! its sheer genius!!!!! i'm surprised moggsy and the ERG haven't put that forward!!!!
There's no praise like self praise! "well since moggsy and brexiteers can't come up with solution yet that abides by the GFA, give em a vote to get rid of the GFA!, problem solved! I'm channelling my inner Bojo! | |||
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"here is an idea... its radical... Since the brexiteers want to basically say "fuck you!" to the good friday agreement... and that same GFA was ratified and agreed in a referendum in both northern ireland and the republic... why don't they have a 2nd referendum on whether they should abide by the terms of the good friday agreement!!!!! its sheer genius!!!!! i'm surprised moggsy and the ERG haven't put that forward!!!!
There's no praise like self praise!
well since moggsy and brexiteers can't come up with solution yet that abides by the GFA, give em a vote to get rid of the GFA!, problem solved!
I'm channelling my inner Bojo!"Theresa May is the prime minister she's the one coming up with the solutions! I think you lack the charisma to do that!! | |||
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"Rumours are circulating that the ERG have their 48 letters!" (Best singing voice) And now the end is near! | |||
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"There is another way. England to leave the United Kingdom. Then the English would only be fucking themselves instead of everyone else who lives on these islands. You seem to have forgot the Welsh wanted to leave too!
If the Welsh are daft enough to go down the rabbit hole with the English, crack on."You are always making out it's an English thing, the Welsh own it too! | |||
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"She is falling onto her sword, slowly but surely, yet these extremists want to be seen to stab her in the back on the way down? It is madness." The dithering old biddy has finally been unmasked and now she is exposed as the double agent she really is! | |||
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"Am I the only one that’s fed up with ‘ifs’ and ‘coulds’ In this whole shambolic situation.. No one knows what WILL happen for sure until it’s finally done That’s not entirely true. We know it will be bad, but we just don’t know how bad. Do we...? Yes 100% Well you can you give the lottery numbers as you seem to be psychic..." You’re driving a speeding car towards the cliff. You don’t know how big the cliff is. You know it will be bad if you drive off, but you don’t know for sure how bad it will be. It’s not rocket science | |||
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"Am I the only one that’s fed up with ‘ifs’ and ‘coulds’ In this whole shambolic situation.. No one knows what WILL happen for sure until it’s finally done That’s not entirely true. We know it will be bad, but we just don’t know how bad. Do we...? Yes 100% Well you can you give the lottery numbers as you seem to be psychic... You’re driving a speeding car towards the cliff. You don’t know how big the cliff is. You know it will be bad if you drive off, but you don’t know for sure how bad it will be. It’s not rocket science " It will need to be a big car to get the population of the UK in it! | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down." Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery! | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down." Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery! | |||
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"Not the fucking Cliff again thought you remainders were the well educated not like us dumb fuck leavers and all you spout on about is a cliff it’s older than water that saying do a_abio and come up with something new fgs lol" see... so be the smart one then foxy... you keep saying that the choice to leave the EU was done by referendum.... but the good friday agreement was ratified by the government and voted for by referendum by the people of northen ireland.. and the republic of ireland..... so are you saying that you referendum holds more weight than their referendum? I was being facetious with my suggestions before... but it was to underline a point..... how are you going to square the result of your referendum, with the result of their referendum? | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down." Tend to agree, the infighting well actually full on hatred that is evident will only serve to garner more support for other parties.. especially if after shafting her the situation does not change.. not sure the moderates will vote her out, the alternative being the likes of Mogg and Boris who are hardly popular in the Parliamentary Tory party.. fekin shambles.. | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery! "I don't think so. She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance. I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party. Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing. | |||
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"Not the fucking Cliff again thought you remainders were the well educated not like us dumb fuck leavers and all you spout on about is a cliff it’s older than water that saying do a_abio and come up with something new fgs lol" Yeah but people persist with the old “we just don’t know” argument. It’s an easy analogy. I can think of anyone one if you like? How about eating rotten meat? Know it’s going to be a terrible experience with horrible consequences, but you don’t know for sure exactly how bad it will be. | |||
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"Not the fucking Cliff again thought you remainders were the well educated not like us dumb fuck leavers and all you spout on about is a cliff it’s older than water that saying do a_abio and come up with something new fgs lol see... so be the smart one then foxy... you keep saying that the choice to leave the EU was done by referendum.... but the good friday agreement was ratified by the government and voted for by referendum by the people of northen ireland.. and the republic of ireland..... so are you saying that you referendum holds more weight than their referendum? I was being facetious with my suggestions before... but it was to underline a point..... how are you going to square the result of your referendum, with the result of their referendum?" Fabio when I said do a Fabio come up with something new I was talking about this bastard cliff remember few months back I ad a daft pop at you when you said the cliff and you came back with a bute but can’t remember but atleast you came up with something new it’s just when everyone jumps on a saying they really jump on it in here lol | |||
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"Not the fucking Cliff again thought you remainders were the well educated not like us dumb fuck leavers and all you spout on about is a cliff it’s older than water that saying do a_abio and come up with something new fgs lol" This cliff has had more come backs than Sir Cliff Richard! | |||
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"Not the fucking Cliff again thought you remainders were the well educated not like us dumb fuck leavers and all you spout on about is a cliff it’s older than water that saying do a_abio and come up with something new fgs lol Yeah but people persist with the old “we just don’t know” argument. It’s an easy analogy. I can think of anyone one if you like? How about eating rotten meat? Know it’s going to be a terrible experience with horrible consequences, but you don’t know for sure exactly how bad it will be." You must have strange tastes in the south east, I can't say I remember ever having rotten meat for dinner! That was even worse than the cliff | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery!
I don't think so.
She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance.
I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party.
Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing."It's not just the extremists as you call them who think her deal is dead in the water is it!? Others can see it's hopeless and she no longer has any credability, walk or be pushed the choice is hers but she needs to go now. | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down." Theresa May has become a laughing stock, not just in the UK, but on the world stage too. As a DUP MP pointed out directly to her face yesterday in the House of commons after she cancelled the meaningful vote, not only is she humiliating herself by her actions she is humiliating the UK. She doesn't know what a red line means, she has no backbone, and she's currently touring round Europe with her begging bowl out asking them to save her. She's not only embarrassing herself but the nation she represents as well. She will be remembered in history books in the same vein as Neville Chamberlain, an appeaser who tried to appease Hitler and the Nazi's, now Theresa May is trying to appease Juncker and the EU. The sooner she's gone from number 10 the better. | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)"A group of MP's already have, they pointed out that the largest port in Europe (Rotterdam) only physically checks 1.5% of non EU containers. The rest come in & are pretty much straight on trucks/trains/feeder vessels & gone. I believe part of the argument may have been that more dodgy stuff likely comes through Rotterdam annually than would ever cross an Irish border. It was rejected out of hand by the EU. Be under no illusion the EU do not want us to leave either. It's all just bluff & bluster & IMHO none of them want Brexit. S | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery!
I don't think so.
She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance.
I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party.
Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing.
It's not just the extremists as you call them who think her deal is dead in the water is it!? Others can see it's hopeless and she no longer has any credability, walk or be pushed the choice is hers but she needs to go now. "In the midst of crisis, everything has to stop while the Conservative Party gaze at their navel. Whoever takes office would begin life as the most unpopular Prime Minister in history. Yet they would face the same roadblocks as Mrs May - the parliamentary arithmetic. Meantime, the crisis grows and grows while weeks are wasted by the Conservative Party. Warehousing prices in the UK are rising rapidly. See today's FT. Businesses are now beginning to roll out their contingency plans and looking for places to stockpile. | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery!
I don't think so.
She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance.
I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party.
Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing.
It's not just the extremists as you call them who think her deal is dead in the water is it!? Others can see it's hopeless and she no longer has any credability, walk or be pushed the choice is hers but she needs to go now.
In the midst of crisis, everything has to stop while the Conservative Party gaze at their navel.
Whoever takes office would begin life as the most unpopular Prime Minister in history.
Yet they would face the same roadblocks as Mrs May - the parliamentary arithmetic.
Meantime, the crisis grows and grows while weeks are wasted by the Conservative Party.
Warehousing prices in the UK are rising rapidly. See today's FT.
Businesses are now beginning to roll out their contingency plans and looking for places to stockpile."So you would stay with an incompetent captain and wait for the ship to sink!? Best to change the captain and alter course I would have thought. She has promised everything to everyone to try and keep them all happy while secretly cooking up a deal that would tie the Uk up indefinitely. | |||
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"here is an idea... its radical... Since the brexiteers want to basically say "fuck you!" to the good friday agreement... and that same GFA was ratified and agreed in a referendum in both northern ireland and the republic... why don't they have a 2nd referendum on whether they should abide by the terms of the good friday agreement!!!!! its sheer genius!!!!! i'm surprised moggsy and the ERG haven't put that forward!!!!
There's no praise like self praise!
well since moggsy and brexiteers can't come up with solution yet that abides by the GFA, give em a vote to get rid of the GFA!, problem solved!
I'm channelling my inner Bojo!"The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave). Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Theresa May has become a laughing stock, not just in the UK, but on the world stage too. As a DUP MP pointed out directly to her face yesterday in the House of commons after she cancelled the meaningful vote, not only is she humiliating herself by her actions she is humiliating the UK. She doesn't know what a red line means, she has no backbone, and she's currently touring round Europe with her begging bowl out asking them to save her. She's not only embarrassing herself but the nation she represents as well. She will be remembered in history books in the same vein as Neville Chamberlain, an appeaser who tried to appease Hitler and the Nazi's, now Theresa May is trying to appease Juncker and the EU. The sooner she's gone from number 10 the better. " No backbone, leave it out.. she has more backbone on her own than the likes of Boris, Mogg and Davis combined.. she has stuck it out as they have welched on their promises to the leavers.. btw piss poor analogy using Chamberlain.. | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
A group of MP's already have, they pointed out that the largest port in Europe (Rotterdam) only physically checks 1.5% of non EU containers. The rest come in & are pretty much straight on trucks/trains/feeder vessels & gone.
I believe part of the argument may have been that more dodgy stuff likely comes through Rotterdam annually than would ever cross an Irish border.
It was rejected out of hand by the EU. Be under no illusion the EU do not want us to leave either. It's all just bluff & bluster & IMHO none of them want Brexit.
S"Ex Brexit secretary David Davis said today on BBC radio 2 that the EU brinkmanship will go on right up until March 2019, maybe up until the final day before we leave. It's just how the EU does things and how it has conducted it's business in the past, there is a consistent pattern. | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Theresa May has become a laughing stock, not just in the UK, but on the world stage too. As a DUP MP pointed out directly to her face yesterday in the House of commons after she cancelled the meaningful vote, not only is she humiliating herself by her actions she is humiliating the UK. She doesn't know what a red line means, she has no backbone, and she's currently touring round Europe with her begging bowl out asking them to save her. She's not only embarrassing herself but the nation she represents as well. She will be remembered in history books in the same vein as Neville Chamberlain, an appeaser who tried to appease Hitler and the Nazi's, now Theresa May is trying to appease Juncker and the EU. The sooner she's gone from number 10 the better. No backbone, leave it out.. she has more backbone on her own than the likes of Boris, Mogg and Davis combined.. she has stuck it out as they have welched on their promises to the leavers.. btw piss poor analogy using Chamberlain.." There is a difference between stubborness and having a backbone. She has proven she couldn't negotiate her way out of a paper bag not without paying a fortune for a map! | |||
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"here is an idea... its radical... Since the brexiteers want to basically say "fuck you!" to the good friday agreement... and that same GFA was ratified and agreed in a referendum in both northern ireland and the republic... why don't they have a 2nd referendum on whether they should abide by the terms of the good friday agreement!!!!! its sheer genius!!!!! i'm surprised moggsy and the ERG haven't put that forward!!!!
There's no praise like self praise!
well since moggsy and brexiteers can't come up with solution yet that abides by the GFA, give em a vote to get rid of the GFA!, problem solved!
I'm channelling my inner Bojo!
The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave).
Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. "There’s an interesting interview with a Dutch customs broker in the NI select committee. A risk based approach solves for some stuff but not for people, smuggling, nor farms crossing borders (and other agricultural challenges). Costs were c £100 per export but the tech and infrastructure would take about two years to put in place. | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Theresa May has become a laughing stock, not just in the UK, but on the world stage too. As a DUP MP pointed out directly to her face yesterday in the House of commons after she cancelled the meaningful vote, not only is she humiliating herself by her actions she is humiliating the UK. She doesn't know what a red line means, she has no backbone, and she's currently touring round Europe with her begging bowl out asking them to save her. She's not only embarrassing herself but the nation she represents as well. She will be remembered in history books in the same vein as Neville Chamberlain, an appeaser who tried to appease Hitler and the Nazi's, now Theresa May is trying to appease Juncker and the EU. The sooner she's gone from number 10 the better. No backbone, leave it out.. she has more backbone on her own than the likes of Boris, Mogg and Davis combined.. she has stuck it out as they have welched on their promises to the leavers.. btw piss poor analogy using Chamberlain.. There is a difference between stubborness and having a backbone. She has proven she couldn't negotiate her way out of a paper bag not without paying a fortune for a map! "whomever had been negotiating the result would still have been what it is today, granted she set herself up to fail with her red lines, no plan etc but the EU's position has not altered.. | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Theresa May has become a laughing stock, not just in the UK, but on the world stage too. As a DUP MP pointed out directly to her face yesterday in the House of commons after she cancelled the meaningful vote, not only is she humiliating herself by her actions she is humiliating the UK. She doesn't know what a red line means, she has no backbone, and she's currently touring round Europe with her begging bowl out asking them to save her. She's not only embarrassing herself but the nation she represents as well. She will be remembered in history books in the same vein as Neville Chamberlain, an appeaser who tried to appease Hitler and the Nazi's, now Theresa May is trying to appease Juncker and the EU. The sooner she's gone from number 10 the better. No backbone, leave it out.. she has more backbone on her own than the likes of Boris, Mogg and Davis combined.. she has stuck it out as they have welched on their promises to the leavers.. btw piss poor analogy using Chamberlain.. There is a difference between stubborness and having a backbone. She has proven she couldn't negotiate her way out of a paper bag not without paying a fortune for a map!
whomever had been negotiating the result would still have been what it is today, granted she set herself up to fail with her red lines, no plan etc but the EU's position has not altered.. "That's a matter of opinion, act like a door mat and people will wipe their feet on you! She had a £39billion carrot to dangle but meekly handed it over,although I am now of the opinion she was just a con artist who never had any intention of leaving! | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
As i understand it, If we go out without some sort of deal over the ni issue on marc 2019, then a hard border will occur in Ireland and ergo, likely resumption of conflict. Unless may's plan to scupper brexit works
"That depends what sort of 'no deal' we actually have. If we have a managed 'no deal', which is basically no trade deal with the EU but things like flight landing & overfly rights, common insurance recognition, food safety standards and a whole load of other stuff agreed then in theory we can leave but that would require a border on the island of Ireland, which would leave both the UK, Ireland and the EU in breach of the Good Friday Agreement. For this reason the EU will not agree to a managed 'no deal' unless it excludes Northern Ireland. That means a border down the Irish Sea and effectively the break up of the UK. If we leave with an unmanaged 'no deal' where we simply don't agree on anything with the EU but just walk away then, apart from the economic upheaval caused by having no legal framework agreed to even dock ships or fly planes into the EU and no quotas on the trade we can do with the EU (or the rest of the world) or them with us, we would require a manned border on the island of Ireland. Even if we illegally under WTO terms refused to man the UK side of the border, our actions would have forced Ireland and the EU to man their side of the border. That would put the UK in breach of the Good Friday Agreement. We would then be in the position of trying to negotiate new trade deals under WTO terms with other countries around the world while actually being in breach of international treaties (the Good Friday Agreement or WTO terms or both) which would not be a good place to start trade negotiation from. There is no known solution to the border in Ireland problem that currently exists that doesn't include Northern Ireland being in a customs union with The Republic of Ireland and some form of regulatory alignment (single market) also. | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore " Maybe BREXITERS should come up with a better BREXIT solution that enables us to leave the EU and doesn't leave us in breach of our international commitments under the Good Friday Agreement rather than just stamping their feet but offering no real solutions at all. You can vote for whatever you like but, without a workable plan to deliver it, you may as well have voted for the moon to be made of blue cheese. | |||
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"If her plan allalong was to keep us in and she manages that what does that say about democracy simple it doesn’t work anymore Democracy has always had one huge flaw from the very beginning and that is its voters. especially the ones that don't like the results "So are you happy with the Leave result? Leave means leave, no ifs, no buts. May's deal is leaving the EU: that's what Leave voters voted for - to leave the EU. It's also what we mean when we say many Leave voters didn't know what they were voting for. They may have known what sort of Leave they wanted but they had absolutely no idea what sort of leave they would get. The question Leave voters have to ask themselves is would they have still voted Leave if they had known that the Leave they were going to get was going to be something like May's Leave? If the answer is 'yes' then you've got what you voted for. Stop singing, back May's deal and get on with it. If the answer is 'no' then you didn't know what you were voting for. So why the hell did you vote for it? Leave means leave. No ifs, no buts. | |||
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" The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave). " since you want to try and tell us "multiple times" about max facs.... then you would know there is one slight... teeny weeny.... tincy wincy.... smallish issue the technology to operate your "max facs" system doesn't exist and has not been invented yet!!!!! so when you get round to inventing it (or maybe you have in your shed and just haven't told anyone of your breakthrough yet, in which case congratulations!!!!) then yes, you centy will have broken down the one last barrier and you will be a rich rich man!!!!!!! can you tell at which part i started being really facetious again!!!! " Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. " so i will point out the same thing again? the GFA was ratified by the governments of the UK and the republic of ireland, the EU is also a co-signor to that agreement (as well as the us) it was also decided by a referendum held by the people in northern ireland and the republic of ireland.... are you saying that your referendum result over-rides their referendum result???? so again.... how are you going to square this lovely circle???? also is it was about "taking back control of our borders" leaving the one land border that you actually have isn't doing that now is it???? shall we just point a big old arrow at it!!!!! and whilst we are back on that subject... back to the question that brexiteers never... since an eu citizen can enter the republic of ireland legally with a passport... how are you then going to stop said EU citizen travelling on bus/train to belfast.... to then catch plane/ferry to the mainland when the UK government have specially said there will be no checks done on internal travel??? | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery!
I don't think so.
She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance.
I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party.
Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing."I would hope that the Tories would be punished at the ballot box for their self indulgent in-fighting. The country is going to hell in a handcart and the Tories think the best strategy is to start fighting with themselves. You've got to love their idiocy | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
A group of MP's already have, they pointed out that the largest port in Europe (Rotterdam) only physically checks 1.5% of non EU containers. The rest come in & are pretty much straight on trucks/trains/feeder vessels & gone.
I believe part of the argument may have been that more dodgy stuff likely comes through Rotterdam annually than would ever cross an Irish border.
It was rejected out of hand by the EU. Be under no illusion the EU do not want us to leave either. It's all just bluff & bluster & IMHO none of them want Brexit.
S
Ex Brexit secretary David Davis said today on BBC radio 2 that the EU brinkmanship will go on right up until March 2019, maybe up until the final day before we leave. It's just how the EU does things and how it has conducted it's business in the past, there is a consistent pattern. "I dont recommend giving any credence whatsoever to the ramblings of the thickest cabinet member in decades | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down." A wise BREXITER! Oxymoron and hens teeth comes to mind. | |||
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"here is an idea... its radical... Since the brexiteers want to basically say "fuck you!" to the good friday agreement... and that same GFA was ratified and agreed in a referendum in both northern ireland and the republic... why don't they have a 2nd referendum on whether they should abide by the terms of the good friday agreement!!!!! its sheer genius!!!!! i'm surprised moggsy and the ERG haven't put that forward!!!!
There's no praise like self praise!
well since moggsy and brexiteers can't come up with solution yet that abides by the GFA, give em a vote to get rid of the GFA!, problem solved!
I'm channelling my inner Bojo!
The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave).
Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. "Where does this technology exist? The ERG cant show any proof that it has yet been developed, or that it is possible to do so | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
A group of MP's already have, they pointed out that the largest port in Europe (Rotterdam) only physically checks 1.5% of non EU containers. The rest come in & are pretty much straight on trucks/trains/feeder vessels & gone.
I believe part of the argument may have been that more dodgy stuff likely comes through Rotterdam annually than would ever cross an Irish border.
It was rejected out of hand by the EU. Be under no illusion the EU do not want us to leave either. It's all just bluff & bluster & IMHO none of them want Brexit.
S"Second time I heard this stat today. Funny how often I hear random info repeated on the same day. Do you listen to LBC ? Even if this is true... What % of animals and plants are checked ? I think 100% by eu rules. | |||
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"...... Ex Brexit secretary David Davis said today on BBC radio 2 that the EU brinkmanship will go on right up until March 2019, maybe up until the final day before we leave. It's just how the EU does things and how it has conducted it's business in the past, there is a consistent pattern. " Why does anyone give anything that David Davis says any credence whatsoever? Remember the EXACT reason that the EU have tied the U.K. in knots legally is because David Davis signed off the Phase 1 withdrawal Agreement where the backstop was first mentioned. He then went on the Andrew Marr show two days later and said it wasn’t legally binding. No wonder then that everything since has been rock solid legally and leaving noroom at all for misinterpretation. The guy is a dangerous clown who is undeserving of holding any kind of political position. | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
A group of MP's already have, they pointed out that the largest port in Europe (Rotterdam) only physically checks 1.5% of non EU containers. The rest come in & are pretty much straight on trucks/trains/feeder vessels & gone.
I believe part of the argument may have been that more dodgy stuff likely comes through Rotterdam annually than would ever cross an Irish border.
It was rejected out of hand by the EU. Be under no illusion the EU do not want us to leave either. It's all just bluff & bluster & IMHO none of them want Brexit.
S"What do you mean by "pretty much straight on". Either it's passed straight on with no checks or it's checked, even if only the paper work. If it's checked, even if only paper work, that requires border officials and, if it's a land border, border posts (as between Sweden and Norway). | |||
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"...... Ex Brexit secretary David Davis said today on BBC radio 2 that the EU brinkmanship will go on right up until March 2019, maybe up until the final day before we leave. It's just how the EU does things and how it has conducted it's business in the past, there is a consistent pattern. Why does anyone give anything that David Davis says any credence whatsoever? Remember the EXACT reason that the EU have tied the U.K. in knots legally is because David Davis signed off the Phase 1 withdrawal Agreement where the backstop was first mentioned. He then went on the Andrew Marr show two days later and said it wasn’t legally binding. No wonder then that everything since has been rock solid legally and leaving noroom at all for misinterpretation. The guy is a dangerous clown who is undeserving of holding any kind of political position." | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
As i understand it, If we go out without some sort of deal over the ni issue on marc 2019, then a hard border will occur in Ireland and ergo, likely resumption of conflict. Unless may's plan to scupper brexit works
That depends what sort of 'no deal' we actually have.
If we have a managed 'no deal', which is basically no trade deal with the EU but things like flight landing & overfly rights, common insurance recognition, food safety standards and a whole load of other stuff agreed then in theory we can leave but that would require a border on the island of Ireland, which would leave both the UK, Ireland and the EU in breach of the Good Friday Agreement. For this reason the EU will not agree to a managed 'no deal' unless it excludes Northern Ireland. That means a border down the Irish Sea and effectively the break up of the UK.
If we leave with an unmanaged 'no deal' where we simply don't agree on anything with the EU but just walk away then, apart from the economic upheaval caused by having no legal framework agreed to even dock ships or fly planes into the EU and no quotas on the trade we can do with the EU (or the rest of the world) or them with us, we would require a manned border on the island of Ireland. Even if we illegally under WTO terms refused to man the UK side of the border, our actions would have forced Ireland and the EU to man their side of the border. That would put the UK in breach of the Good Friday Agreement. We would then be in the position of trying to negotiate new trade deals under WTO terms with other countries around the world while actually being in breach of international treaties (the Good Friday Agreement or WTO terms or both) which would not be a good place to start trade negotiation from.
There is no known solution to the border in Ireland problem that currently exists that doesn't include Northern Ireland being in a customs union with The Republic of Ireland and some form of regulatory alignment (single market) also.
"If the Republic/EU impose a border & the UK doesn't on their side how is the UK breaking the good Friday agreement exactly? Surely that's akin to Germany putting in a border with Holland & then blaming Belgium? S | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery!
I don't think so.
She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance.
I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party.
Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing.
It's not just the extremists as you call them who think her deal is dead in the water is it!? Others can see it's hopeless and she no longer has any credability, walk or be pushed the choice is hers but she needs to go now.
In the midst of crisis, everything has to stop while the Conservative Party gaze at their navel.
Whoever takes office would begin life as the most unpopular Prime Minister in history.
Yet they would face the same roadblocks as Mrs May - the parliamentary arithmetic.
Meantime, the crisis grows and grows while weeks are wasted by the Conservative Party.
Warehousing prices in the UK are rising rapidly. See today's FT.
Businesses are now beginning to roll out their contingency plans and looking for places to stockpile.
So you would stay with an incompetent captain and wait for the ship to sink!? Best to change the captain and alter course I would have thought.
She has promised everything to everyone to try and keep them all happy while secretly cooking up a deal that would tie the Uk up indefinitely.
"Better still, rather than change the captain why not change the mutinous crew instead. Changing the leader will change nothing. There is no deal available with the EU that doesn't involve a customs union between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and that includes the so called managed 'no deal' deal. | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
A group of MP's already have, they pointed out that the largest port in Europe (Rotterdam) only physically checks 1.5% of non EU containers. The rest come in & are pretty much straight on trucks/trains/feeder vessels & gone.
I believe part of the argument may have been that more dodgy stuff likely comes through Rotterdam annually than would ever cross an Irish border.
It was rejected out of hand by the EU. Be under no illusion the EU do not want us to leave either. It's all just bluff & bluster & IMHO none of them want Brexit.
S
What do you mean by "pretty much straight on". Either it's passed straight on with no checks or it's checked, even if only the paper work. If it's checked, even if only paper work, that requires border officials and, if it's a land border, border posts (as between Sweden and Norway).
"Transport & customs documents have moved on. I've been out of the game for nearly twenty years but even in my time paperwork was lodged for non EU cargo before the ship had even tied up. 95% of the containers would be cleared customs before they even got craned off the ship. 1.5% was the percentage given that customs would physically check. Ie break the seal & check against a manifest. I used to control the duty & vat payments for a certain photocopier company, the paperwork & payment of duty & vat was done monthly by my department. No delays at port, no holding up cargo. The figure paid averaged £2.5m pm. No reason this cannot be done in Ireland & no reason why 1.5% of trucks on the road or in/near a port cannot be stopped & searched. HMRC have the powers already. S | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
A group of MP's already have, they pointed out that the largest port in Europe (Rotterdam) only physically checks 1.5% of non EU containers. The rest come in & are pretty much straight on trucks/trains/feeder vessels & gone.
I believe part of the argument may have been that more dodgy stuff likely comes through Rotterdam annually than would ever cross an Irish border.
It was rejected out of hand by the EU. Be under no illusion the EU do not want us to leave either. It's all just bluff & bluster & IMHO none of them want Brexit.
S
What do you mean by "pretty much straight on". Either it's passed straight on with no checks or it's checked, even if only the paper work. If it's checked, even if only paper work, that requires border officials and, if it's a land border, border posts (as between Sweden and Norway).
Transport & customs documents have moved on. I've been out of the game for nearly twenty years but even in my time paperwork was lodged for non EU cargo before the ship had even tied up. 95% of the containers would be cleared customs before they even got craned off the ship. 1.5% was the percentage given that customs would physically check. Ie break the seal & check against a manifest. I used to control the duty & vat payments for a certain photocopier company, the paperwork & payment of duty & vat was done monthly by my department. No delays at port, no holding up cargo. The figure paid averaged £2.5m pm.
No reason this cannot be done in Ireland & no reason why 1.5% of trucks on the road or in/near a port cannot be stopped & searched. HMRC have the powers already.
S"It would be physically impossible to check every truck, but I read somewhere, that livestock was pretty much treated in that way - even a get was involved? | |||
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"here is an idea... its radical... Since the brexiteers want to basically say "fuck you!" to the good friday agreement... and that same GFA was ratified and agreed in a referendum in both northern ireland and the republic... why don't they have a 2nd referendum on whether they should abide by the terms of the good friday agreement!!!!! its sheer genius!!!!! i'm surprised moggsy and the ERG haven't put that forward!!!!
There's no praise like self praise!
well since moggsy and brexiteers can't come up with solution yet that abides by the GFA, give em a vote to get rid of the GFA!, problem solved!
I'm channelling my inner Bojo!
The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave).
Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football.
Where does this technology exist? The ERG cant show any proof that it has yet been developed, or that it is possible to do so"And, if they really thought it either existed or would exist in 2 to 4 years they wouldn't be worried about the backstop because it would never be required. The fact that they think the backstop will be required and used tells all anyone needs to know about how confident ERG really are in their unworkable, nonexistent max fax plan. | |||
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" The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave). since you want to try and tell us "multiple times" about max facs.... then you would know there is one slight... teeny weeny.... tincy wincy.... smallish issue the technology to operate your "max facs" system doesn't exist and has not been invented yet!!!!! so when you get round to inventing it (or maybe you have in your shed and just haven't told anyone of your breakthrough yet, in which case congratulations!!!!) then yes, you centy will have broken down the one last barrier and you will be a rich rich man!!!!!!! can you tell at which part i started being really facetious again!!!! Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. so i will point out the same thing again? the GFA was ratified by the governments of the UK and the republic of ireland, the EU is also a co-signor to that agreement (as well as the us) it was also decided by a referendum held by the people in northern ireland and the republic of ireland.... are you saying that your referendum result over-rides their referendum result???? so again.... how are you going to square this lovely circle???? also is it was about "taking back control of our borders" leaving the one land border that you actually have isn't doing that now is it???? shall we just point a big old arrow at it!!!!! and whilst we are back on that subject... back to the question that brexiteers never... since an eu citizen can enter the republic of ireland legally with a passport... how are you then going to stop said EU citizen travelling on bus/train to belfast.... to then catch plane/ferry to the mainland when the UK government have specially said there will be no checks done on internal travel???" In that case the good Friday agreement has already been broken because a border already exists there now!!!! (You always seem to put multiple exclamation marks and question marks in your posts so I thought I'd do the same when replying to you if it's the only language you understand)????? A VAT border exists in Ireland, a tax border exists there, a monetary and currency border exists there, a health care border already exists there, a law and order border exists there, the list goes on and on and on about the differences between Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland which place a border of sorts there already!!!!! | |||
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"May has deliberately backed the government into a corner ..let me explain why .... May was and is a remainer ..she knew fine well the deal would never get through parliament..she is using it to get back to a second referendum..something she as prime minister cannot call for under the democratic proccess ...basicly she will put it down to no choice but to take it back to the people in the hope the turmoil of brexit will overturn the original decision ..then she will stand down ..she is not a stupid person she knows exactly what she is doing ...once brexit is overturned she will have done the job she set out to do from the beginning
If she was always going to do this, it was pretty dumb if BoJo and Gove to have allowed her to become PM. And just as dumb of Fox to have aligned himself to her.
And if NI was always going to be a deal breaker, it was dumb of brexiteers not to have created a compelling answer which could not be ignored. (And if they do have one now, eh tech, why be so worried about the backstop, which nobody likes?)
As i understand it, If we go out without some sort of deal over the ni issue on marc 2019, then a hard border will occur in Ireland and ergo, likely resumption of conflict. Unless may's plan to scupper brexit works
That depends what sort of 'no deal' we actually have.
If we have a managed 'no deal', which is basically no trade deal with the EU but things like flight landing & overfly rights, common insurance recognition, food safety standards and a whole load of other stuff agreed then in theory we can leave but that would require a border on the island of Ireland, which would leave both the UK, Ireland and the EU in breach of the Good Friday Agreement. For this reason the EU will not agree to a managed 'no deal' unless it excludes Northern Ireland. That means a border down the Irish Sea and effectively the break up of the UK.
If we leave with an unmanaged 'no deal' where we simply don't agree on anything with the EU but just walk away then, apart from the economic upheaval caused by having no legal framework agreed to even dock ships or fly planes into the EU and no quotas on the trade we can do with the EU (or the rest of the world) or them with us, we would require a manned border on the island of Ireland. Even if we illegally under WTO terms refused to man the UK side of the border, our actions would have forced Ireland and the EU to man their side of the border. That would put the UK in breach of the Good Friday Agreement. We would then be in the position of trying to negotiate new trade deals under WTO terms with other countries around the world while actually being in breach of international treaties (the Good Friday Agreement or WTO terms or both) which would not be a good place to start trade negotiation from.
There is no known solution to the border in Ireland problem that currently exists that doesn't include Northern Ireland being in a customs union with The Republic of Ireland and some form of regulatory alignment (single market) also.
If the Republic/EU impose a border & the UK doesn't on their side how is the UK breaking the good Friday agreement exactly? Surely that's akin to Germany putting in a border with Holland & then blaming Belgium?
S"Because it is the actions of the UK in leaving the EU without making adequate provision to prevent the legal necessity of Ireland and the EU having to man a customs border in order to meet their commitments under WTO terms. It's the UK that is changing the status quo. | |||
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" The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave). since you want to try and tell us "multiple times" about max facs.... then you would know there is one slight... teeny weeny.... tincy wincy.... smallish issue the technology to operate your "max facs" system doesn't exist and has not been invented yet!!!!! so when you get round to inventing it (or maybe you have in your shed and just haven't told anyone of your breakthrough yet, in which case congratulations!!!!) then yes, you centy will have broken down the one last barrier and you will be a rich rich man!!!!!!! can you tell at which part i started being really facetious again!!!! Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. so i will point out the same thing again? the GFA was ratified by the governments of the UK and the republic of ireland, the EU is also a co-signor to that agreement (as well as the us) it was also decided by a referendum held by the people in northern ireland and the republic of ireland.... are you saying that your referendum result over-rides their referendum result???? so again.... how are you going to square this lovely circle???? also is it was about "taking back control of our borders" leaving the one land border that you actually have isn't doing that now is it???? shall we just point a big old arrow at it!!!!! and whilst we are back on that subject... back to the question that brexiteers never... since an eu citizen can enter the republic of ireland legally with a passport... how are you then going to stop said EU citizen travelling on bus/train to belfast.... to then catch plane/ferry to the mainland when the UK government have specially said there will be no checks done on internal travel??? In that case the good Friday agreement has already been broken because a border already exists there now!!!! (You always seem to put multiple exclamation marks and question marks in your posts so I thought I'd do the same when replying to you if it's the only language you understand)????? A VAT border exists in Ireland, a tax border exists there, a monetary and currency border exists there, a health care border already exists there, a law and order border exists there, the list goes on and on and on about the differences between Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland which place a border of sorts there already!!!!! " You missed out Duty border. The thing is non of those borders have anything to do with trade arrangements under WTO terms. While Northern Ireland and The Republic are in the same customs union then the sort of border they have is a matter between the sovereign authority in Northern Ireland and the sovereign authority in The Republic. Once Northern Ireland and The Republic are no longer in a customs union or some other customs trading block with each other then the minimum border required between them becomes a matter not just for the respective sovereign authorities but also a matter for the WTO if the border favours either Northern Ireland in the Republic or the Republic in Northern Ireland over other WTO members. | |||
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" The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave). since you want to try and tell us "multiple times" about max facs.... then you would know there is one slight... teeny weeny.... tincy wincy.... smallish issue the technology to operate your "max facs" system doesn't exist and has not been invented yet!!!!! so when you get round to inventing it (or maybe you have in your shed and just haven't told anyone of your breakthrough yet, in which case congratulations!!!!) then yes, you centy will have broken down the one last barrier and you will be a rich rich man!!!!!!! can you tell at which part i started being really facetious again!!!! Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. so i will point out the same thing again? the GFA was ratified by the governments of the UK and the republic of ireland, the EU is also a co-signor to that agreement (as well as the us) it was also decided by a referendum held by the people in northern ireland and the republic of ireland.... are you saying that your referendum result over-rides their referendum result???? so again.... how are you going to square this lovely circle???? also is it was about "taking back control of our borders" leaving the one land border that you actually have isn't doing that now is it???? shall we just point a big old arrow at it!!!!! and whilst we are back on that subject... back to the question that brexiteers never... since an eu citizen can enter the republic of ireland legally with a passport... how are you then going to stop said EU citizen travelling on bus/train to belfast.... to then catch plane/ferry to the mainland when the UK government have specially said there will be no checks done on internal travel??? In that case the good Friday agreement has already been broken because a border already exists there now!!!! (You always seem to put multiple exclamation marks and question marks in your posts so I thought I'd do the same when replying to you if it's the only language you understand)????? A VAT border exists in Ireland, a tax border exists there, a monetary and currency border exists there, a health care border already exists there, a law and order border exists there, the list goes on and on and on about the differences between Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland which place a border of sorts there already!!!!! You missed out Duty border. The thing is non of those borders have anything to do with trade arrangements under WTO terms. While Northern Ireland and The Republic are in the same customs union then the sort of border they have is a matter between the sovereign authority in Northern Ireland and the sovereign authority in The Republic. Once Northern Ireland and The Republic are no longer in a customs union or some other customs trading block with each other then the minimum border required between them becomes a matter not just for the respective sovereign authorities but also a matter for the WTO if the border favours either Northern Ireland in the Republic or the Republic in Northern Ireland over other WTO members. " Not so if the UK and the EU are negotiating a free trade deal though. Under a managed no deal withdrawal to WTO rules the UK and the EU can agree to negotiate a Canada style free trade agreement for the future. WTO rules give a 10 year exemption on border controls (in extenuating circumstances) being enforced if the 2 countries involved are in the process of negotiating a free trade deal. The extenuating circumstances surrounding the good Friday agreement would be sufficient grounds for the WTO to grant a 10 year exemption from border controls being needed on the island of Ireland. | |||
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" The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave). since you want to try and tell us "multiple times" about max facs.... then you would know there is one slight... teeny weeny.... tincy wincy.... smallish issue the technology to operate your "max facs" system doesn't exist and has not been invented yet!!!!! so when you get round to inventing it (or maybe you have in your shed and just haven't told anyone of your breakthrough yet, in which case congratulations!!!!) then yes, you centy will have broken down the one last barrier and you will be a rich rich man!!!!!!! can you tell at which part i started being really facetious again!!!! Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. so i will point out the same thing again? the GFA was ratified by the governments of the UK and the republic of ireland, the EU is also a co-signor to that agreement (as well as the us) it was also decided by a referendum held by the people in northern ireland and the republic of ireland.... are you saying that your referendum result over-rides their referendum result???? so again.... how are you going to square this lovely circle???? also is it was about "taking back control of our borders" leaving the one land border that you actually have isn't doing that now is it???? shall we just point a big old arrow at it!!!!! and whilst we are back on that subject... back to the question that brexiteers never... since an eu citizen can enter the republic of ireland legally with a passport... how are you then going to stop said EU citizen travelling on bus/train to belfast.... to then catch plane/ferry to the mainland when the UK government have specially said there will be no checks done on internal travel??? In that case the good Friday agreement has already been broken because a border already exists there now!!!! (You always seem to put multiple exclamation marks and question marks in your posts so I thought I'd do the same when replying to you if it's the only language you understand)????? A VAT border exists in Ireland, a tax border exists there, a monetary and currency border exists there, a health care border already exists there, a law and order border exists there, the list goes on and on and on about the differences between Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland which place a border of sorts there already!!!!! You missed out Duty border. The thing is non of those borders have anything to do with trade arrangements under WTO terms. While Northern Ireland and The Republic are in the same customs union then the sort of border they have is a matter between the sovereign authority in Northern Ireland and the sovereign authority in The Republic. Once Northern Ireland and The Republic are no longer in a customs union or some other customs trading block with each other then the minimum border required between them becomes a matter not just for the respective sovereign authorities but also a matter for the WTO if the border favours either Northern Ireland in the Republic or the Republic in Northern Ireland over other WTO members. Not so if the UK and the EU are negotiating a free trade deal though. Under a managed no deal withdrawal to WTO rules the UK and the EU can agree to negotiate a Canada style free trade agreement for the future. WTO rules give a 10 year exemption on border controls (in extenuating circumstances) being enforced if the 2 countries involved are in the process of negotiating a free trade deal. The extenuating circumstances surrounding the good Friday agreement would be sufficient grounds for the WTO to grant a 10 year exemption from border controls being needed on the island of Ireland. " We went through this 10 year stuff last time. WTO won't agree because we already have a perfectly good trade deal with the EU that completely solves the border in Ireland. It's called being in the EU. Also the WTO will not agree to an exemption that provides freer trade than the likely outcome of the trade talks. The EU will not agree to negotiate a Canada type trade deal with the UK, only with GB because a Canada type trade deal would not include a customs union between Northern Ireland and the Republic so would require a border on the island of Ireland. | |||
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" The ERG has come up with solutions though, it's called 'maximum facilitation' with use of technology solutions (but you already know that because you've been told about it on here multiple times before). This maximum facilitation solution to the border can be acceptable to the UK but the EU and Republic of Ireland would never accept it for the simple reason they don't want us to ever properly leave the EU. This is why a backstop is unacceptable because it would keep us tied into the EU in a legally binding way that we could never leave of our own free will and the only way we could get out of it would be with the EU's consent (which they will never grant because they don't want us to leave). since you want to try and tell us "multiple times" about max facs.... then you would know there is one slight... teeny weeny.... tincy wincy.... smallish issue the technology to operate your "max facs" system doesn't exist and has not been invented yet!!!!! so when you get round to inventing it (or maybe you have in your shed and just haven't told anyone of your breakthrough yet, in which case congratulations!!!!) then yes, you centy will have broken down the one last barrier and you will be a rich rich man!!!!!!! can you tell at which part i started being really facetious again!!!! Therefore the only way to honour the result of the referendum is to go through a managed no deal withdrawal process where we leave on WTO terms and do a series of separate bilateral side deals on things like civil aviation to keep planes flying, etc. The EU have publicly said they will never put border controls on the island of Ireland (even in a no deal scenario) and the UK has said the same so the border is a none issue which is currently being used as a political football. so i will point out the same thing again? the GFA was ratified by the governments of the UK and the republic of ireland, the EU is also a co-signor to that agreement (as well as the us) it was also decided by a referendum held by the people in northern ireland and the republic of ireland.... are you saying that your referendum result over-rides their referendum result???? so again.... how are you going to square this lovely circle???? also is it was about "taking back control of our borders" leaving the one land border that you actually have isn't doing that now is it???? shall we just point a big old arrow at it!!!!! and whilst we are back on that subject... back to the question that brexiteers never... since an eu citizen can enter the republic of ireland legally with a passport... how are you then going to stop said EU citizen travelling on bus/train to belfast.... to then catch plane/ferry to the mainland when the UK government have specially said there will be no checks done on internal travel??? In that case the good Friday agreement has already been broken because a border already exists there now!!!! (You always seem to put multiple exclamation marks and question marks in your posts so I thought I'd do the same when replying to you if it's the only language you understand)????? A VAT border exists in Ireland, a tax border exists there, a monetary and currency border exists there, a health care border already exists there, a law and order border exists there, the list goes on and on and on about the differences between Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland which place a border of sorts there already!!!!! You missed out Duty border. The thing is non of those borders have anything to do with trade arrangements under WTO terms. While Northern Ireland and The Republic are in the same customs union then the sort of border they have is a matter between the sovereign authority in Northern Ireland and the sovereign authority in The Republic. Once Northern Ireland and The Republic are no longer in a customs union or some other customs trading block with each other then the minimum border required between them becomes a matter not just for the respective sovereign authorities but also a matter for the WTO if the border favours either Northern Ireland in the Republic or the Republic in Northern Ireland over other WTO members. Not so if the UK and the EU are negotiating a free trade deal though. Under a managed no deal withdrawal to WTO rules the UK and the EU can agree to negotiate a Canada style free trade agreement for the future. WTO rules give a 10 year exemption on border controls (in extenuating circumstances) being enforced if the 2 countries involved are in the process of negotiating a free trade deal. The extenuating circumstances surrounding the good Friday agreement would be sufficient grounds for the WTO to grant a 10 year exemption from border controls being needed on the island of Ireland. We went through this 10 year stuff last time. WTO won't agree because we already have a perfectly good trade deal with the EU that completely solves the border in Ireland. It's called being in the EU. Also the WTO will not agree to an exemption that provides freer trade than the likely outcome of the trade talks. The EU will not agree to negotiate a Canada type trade deal with the UK, only with GB because a Canada type trade deal would not include a customs union between Northern Ireland and the Republic so would require a border on the island of Ireland. " We're leaving the EU though. The current deal we have with the EU as a member won't exist after we've left so your point about the current deal is completely irrelevant. So the WTO will agree to the border exemption after we've left the EU and both the UK and the EU agree to negotiate a Canada style free trade deal. If you're saying that the EU won't negotiate a Canada style free trade deal with UK but will do one with Britain, what you're actually saying is the EU will be looking to annex Northern Ireland into the EU away from the UK. Why would you want to stay in such an organisation that behaves like Russia annexing Crimea from Ukraine. The EU would have to agree to negotiate a Canada style free trade deal with the whole of the UK otherwise the EU would fall foul of WTO rules on border controls without the 10 year exemption coming into effect. Once the Canada style free trade deal negotiations are under way The Irish border can be solved now with current technology solutions complimented by trusted trader schemes. This has been confirmed by former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Owen Patterson and key figures in the signing of the good Friday agreement like David Trimble. But even if you don't accept that premise then remainers themselves argue that technology solutions would take at least 2 to 5 years to put in place in Ireland, which would be well within the 10 year time limit exemption on border controls being needed under WTO rules. | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery!
I don't think so.
She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance.
I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party.
Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing.
It's not just the extremists as you call them who think her deal is dead in the water is it!? Others can see it's hopeless and she no longer has any credability, walk or be pushed the choice is hers but she needs to go now.
In the midst of crisis, everything has to stop while the Conservative Party gaze at their navel.
Whoever takes office would begin life as the most unpopular Prime Minister in history.
Yet they would face the same roadblocks as Mrs May - the parliamentary arithmetic.
Meantime, the crisis grows and grows while weeks are wasted by the Conservative Party.
Warehousing prices in the UK are rising rapidly. See today's FT.
Businesses are now beginning to roll out their contingency plans and looking for places to stockpile.
So you would stay with an incompetent captain and wait for the ship to sink!? Best to change the captain and alter course I would have thought.
She has promised everything to everyone to try and keep them all happy while secretly cooking up a deal that would tie the Uk up indefinitely.
Better still, rather than change the captain why not change the mutinous crew instead. Changing the leader will change nothing. There is no deal available with the EU that doesn't involve a customs union between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and that includes the so called managed 'no deal' deal.
"When the captain turns out to be an incompetent phoney brexiteer you think the answer is to change the crew! Theresa May set the course but failed to tell the crew where they were going until it was nearly time to hit the iceberg but you still think she should stay! Is that because you think she would keep you in your precious EU. The Downing Street cat could have negotiated a better deal! | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery!
I don't think so.
She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance.
I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party.
Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing.
It's not just the extremists as you call them who think her deal is dead in the water is it!? Others can see it's hopeless and she no longer has any credability, walk or be pushed the choice is hers but she needs to go now.
In the midst of crisis, everything has to stop while the Conservative Party gaze at their navel.
Whoever takes office would begin life as the most unpopular Prime Minister in history.
Yet they would face the same roadblocks as Mrs May - the parliamentary arithmetic.
Meantime, the crisis grows and grows while weeks are wasted by the Conservative Party.
Warehousing prices in the UK are rising rapidly. See today's FT.
Businesses are now beginning to roll out their contingency plans and looking for places to stockpile.
So you would stay with an incompetent captain and wait for the ship to sink!? Best to change the captain and alter course I would have thought.
She has promised everything to everyone to try and keep them all happy while secretly cooking up a deal that would tie the Uk up indefinitely.
Better still, rather than change the captain why not change the mutinous crew instead. Changing the leader will change nothing. There is no deal available with the EU that doesn't involve a customs union between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and that includes the so called managed 'no deal' deal.
When the captain turns out to be an incompetent phoney brexiteer you think the answer is to change the crew! Theresa May set the course but failed to tell the crew where they were going until it was nearly time to hit the iceberg but you still think she should stay! Is that because you think she would keep you in your precious EU.
The Downing Street cat could have negotiated a better deal! "Really? Your such and expert on these things I assume that you are an experienced negotiator? Why didn't you avail yourselves for the negotiations? As Mogg found out "talk is easy" - still how long has it taken to get just 48 letters? | |||
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"Vote of no confidence is on for tonight! " And hopefully it will put Mogg and his cronies back in their box. They have demonstrated poor judgement pushing for this vote of no confidence at this time. | |||
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"Vote of no confidence is on for tonight! And hopefully it will put Mogg and his cronies back in their box. They have demonstrated poor judgement pushing for this vote of no confidence at this time. " Done a few hours before PMQs to cause TM the most discomfort. | |||
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"Vote of no confidence is on for tonight! And hopefully it will put Mogg and his cronies back in their box. They have demonstrated poor judgement pushing for this vote of no confidence at this time. Done a few hours before PMQs to cause TM the most discomfort." Well we will know the result tonight for sure. It's just if they get 158 votes - took ages to get 48 - so not cut and dry! | |||
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"I don't think the average voter will see things that way, if the extremists knife her and install one of their own when people think she is trying her best to pull a rabbit from the hat. A wiser course would be to allow Parliament to take her down. Most people would see it as putting her out of her misery!
I don't think so.
She has a degree of respect out there for her perserverance.
I think most people would be appalled if, during perhaps the greatest crisis most people can remember, these extremists decided there should be an election for a new leader of the Conservative Party.
Whoever won would be on a complete hiding to nothing.
It's not just the extremists as you call them who think her deal is dead in the water is it!? Others can see it's hopeless and she no longer has any credability, walk or be pushed the choice is hers but she needs to go now.
In the midst of crisis, everything has to stop while the Conservative Party gaze at their navel.
Whoever takes office would begin life as the most unpopular Prime Minister in history.
Yet they would face the same roadblocks as Mrs May - the parliamentary arithmetic.
Meantime, the crisis grows and grows while weeks are wasted by the Conservative Party.
Warehousing prices in the UK are rising rapidly. See today's FT.
Businesses are now beginning to roll out their contingency plans and looking for places to stockpile.
So you would stay with an incompetent captain and wait for the ship to sink!? Best to change the captain and alter course I would have thought.
She has promised everything to everyone to try and keep them all happy while secretly cooking up a deal that would tie the Uk up indefinitely.
Better still, rather than change the captain why not change the mutinous crew instead. Changing the leader will change nothing. There is no deal available with the EU that doesn't involve a customs union between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and that includes the so called managed 'no deal' deal.
When the captain turns out to be an incompetent phoney brexiteer you think the answer is to change the crew! Theresa May set the course but failed to tell the crew where they were going until it was nearly time to hit the iceberg but you still think she should stay! Is that because you think she would keep you in your precious EU.
The Downing Street cat could have negotiated a better deal! "The Downing Street cat voted remain | |||
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