FabSwingers.com forum: Contempt

By *oi_Lucy OP Couple
over a year ago

Barbados

And now the government may be in contempt for not releasing the full and final legal guidance it received on Brexit. They seem to be trying really hard to hush this one up... must be pretty bad.

-Matt

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By *oi_Lucy OP Couple
over a year ago

Barbados

And now the Tories are trying to filibuster for some reason and currently discussing the Scottish contribution to the Chilean Navy... wtf... I think they are trying to extend the discussion in order to get some amendment on the privilege debate to be brought about first thing in the morning regarding the contempt.

-Matt

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I actually agree with the Government's argument that legal advice given to it should be privileged and it shouldn't have to disclose it.

However the time for the Government to make that argument was before the vote on the humble address in Parliament that is requesting it. The Government, for some reason, choose to abstain and the address was past.

Now there is a far more serious issue than legal privilege. The issue now is can the Government ignore the will of Parliament?

The generally accepted view is that the Government can not govern against the expressed will of Parliament.

Could this be a sort of 'stalking horse' because, if May's deal goes down on 11 December, the will of Parliament and the Government's right to govern without it will be crucial as to what happens next.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think when MP's are asked to vote on something this big then they should be privileged with every form of information available to make an informed decision.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I think when MP's are asked to vote on something this big then they should be privileged with every form of information available to make an informed decision."

This..

Apart from voting to declare war this issue is pretty much up there..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think when MP's are asked to vote on something this big then they should be privileged with every form of information available to make an informed decision.

This..

Apart from voting to declare war this issue is pretty much up there.. "

Open and transparent - but only when it suits!

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By *oi_Lucy OP Couple
over a year ago

Barbados

Related: There is a great video of Mhairi Black speaking at a University on how private members bills work. Gives a really great insight into the (broken) process by which Westminster works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDuiIv4NJgg

Only 6 minutes long, but gives a great feel for what muppetry goes on.

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Related: There is a great video of Mhairi Black speaking at a University on how private members bills work. Gives a really great insight into the (broken) process by which Westminster works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDuiIv4NJgg

Only 6 minutes long, but gives a great feel for what muppetry goes on.

-Matt"

Whole system is out of date - needs total reform - we don't need 650MP's to start!

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Now there is a far more serious issue than legal privilege. The issue now is can the Government ignore the will of Parliament?

The generally accepted view is that the Government can not govern against the expressed will of Parliament."

Generally accepted? Serious issue? Government ignore parliament? Really?

I was under the impression that the Government are Ministers of The Crown and are subservient to Parliament.

In fact as I understand it this issue was decided on the 29th January 1649 when King Charles I was beheaded on the orders of Parliament after 7 years of The Civil War to settle this very point. Further as I understand it Parliament is Sovereign and as such there is no such thing as a claim of 'privilege' in any issue between Parliament and The Crown or any Subject of The Crown.

Of course I may be wrong about this and will be more than happy to be corrected.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"Now there is a far more serious issue than legal privilege. The issue now is can the Government ignore the will of Parliament?

The generally accepted view is that the Government can not govern against the expressed will of Parliament.

Generally accepted? Serious issue? Government ignore parliament? Really?

I was under the impression that the Government are Ministers of The Crown and are subservient to Parliament.

Of course I may be wrong about this and will be more than happy to be corrected.

Technically you are right. It has been "convention" in the past that a "client privilege" has existed between the Government and the Attorney General.

If Parliament decided, through voting on the contempt amendment raised, that the full text be revealed then the Government will be forced to act accordingly.

This could also see the possible suspension of either Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General or David Liddington, who acts as the Cabinet Secretary.

This Legal Document that everyone is desperate to see in full, runs to 5000 pages of largely legal jargon!

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By *oi_Lucy OP Couple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Related: There is a great video of Mhairi Black speaking at a University on how private members bills work. Gives a really great insight into the (broken) process by which Westminster works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDuiIv4NJgg

Only 6 minutes long, but gives a great feel for what muppetry goes on.

-Matt

Whole system is out of date - needs total reform - we don't need 650MP's to start! "

I found out recently that the distance between the front of the two 'sides' of the houses of parliament is "two swords and an inch" which harks back to times when parliamentarians were armed and to either prevent or remind them not to attack each other.

But when you actually listen to the hoo-ha that goes on in the debating chamber, you realise that we haven't come very far at all.

-Matt

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Technically you are right. It has been "convention" in the past that a "client privilege" has existed between the Government and the Attorney General.

If Parliament decided, through voting on the contempt amendment raised, that the full text be revealed then the Government will be forced to act accordingly.

This could also see the possible suspension of either Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General or David Liddington, who acts as the Cabinet Secretary.

This Legal Document that everyone is desperate to see in full, runs to 5000 pages of largely legal jargon!

I am sure that just like Public Enquiry reports there are teams of lawyers ready to tare it apart and supply a cogent idiot proof precis. Of course I did hear someone laugh at the powers of Parliament last year or the year before saying being found in contempt of parliament was nothing because parliament does not even have a gaol. But is there anything to stop Parliament ordering Black Rod and The Sergeant At Arms to confine anyone who refuses to answer Parliaments questions within the building until they do? (Of course only Members of Parliament are entitled to enter Parliament and use its facilities, so I'm guessing that any stay would quickly become unpleasant for the detainee.)

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"I found out recently that the distance between the front of the two 'sides' of the houses of parliament is "two swords and an inch" which harks back to times when parliamentarians were armed and to either prevent or remind them not to attack each other.

Thats the distance between the 2 red lines you can see on the floor of The House of Commons. Note there are no similar lines on the floor of the 'Lords'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So the government only want certain parts of the report he known, sounds like they have something to hide ?

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Trying to claim that the request was too vague, is a rather pathetic attempt by the conservatives, who clearly and fully understood what was requested and required, in order to satisfy parliament.

As Brexit moves towards parliament, not just Ministers, being responsible for voting on the deal, then it's important for MPs to have the full information that the government had, as was stipulated in November.

Trying to push barriers between the government and the rest of parliament, upon an issue that's the biggest the UK has faced in decades, is clearly meant to inflict damage and to prevent parliament from being able to satisfy its duties.

I'd like a prison sentence for the Minister and PM, as these would be more fitting, following being placed in stocks and pillories in public.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

I think it’s this motion is interesting for two reasons..

1) the tories are giving their mps a three line whip on the issue.. basically saying their mps must vote against, so we will see how many rebel, since loads of brexiteers also want to see the advice

2) will the dup actually vote for the motion... they are co signed on the issue.. vote for or abstain?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The ayes have it!

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By *athy1Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

Shit will hit the fan now now the eyes have it poor old centaur how will he sleep tonight

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

A harbinger of the "meaningful vote".

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Shit will hit the fan now now the eyes have it poor old centaur how will he sleep tonight "

I'll sleep very well tonight actually like most of the ERG Brexiters in Parliament I'd like to see the full legal advise published. I want to know if the full legal advise says we'll be trapped as a prisoner in the EU customs union indefinitely under May's deal, and I think that is what May is trying to hide.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

A trap of your own making, Centaur, because neither you nor any your chums on the extreme of British politics ever had a clue how to reconcile leaving the EU with having an open border with the EU.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"A trap of your own making, Centaur, because neither you nor any your chums on the extreme of British politics ever had a clue how to reconcile leaving the EU with having an open border with the EU.

Not a trap of my own making, a trap of Theresa May and Olly Robbins making.

They are remainers after all, it's a given Olly Robbins can't be trusted but Theresa May's actions (that don't match her words) have also proved she can't be trusted. Former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab wanted a backstop termination clause put into the withdrawal agreement for negotiation and it's reported he had one drawn up by Geoffrey Cox but Theresa May ripped it up and refused to put it in. This is a mess of Theresa May's own making, and she took 'personal responsibility' for the negotiations.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shit will hit the fan now now the eyes have it poor old centaur how will he sleep tonight

Agree 100%

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the snivelling shits on the right got ripped a few new arseholes today and then they got their arses handed to them in a monumental kicking ... and the cunts in the ERG voted with mrs maygabe .... comedy gold

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"the snivelling shits on the right got ripped a few new arseholes today and then they got their arses handed to them in a monumental kicking ... and the cunts in the ERG voted with mrs maygabe .... comedy gold

the defeat that will have the biggest consequence is the one that the government took on the "grieve amendment"... the brexiteers are going to hate it when they work out what it means (spoiler... i aint goin ruin the fun, but it now basically puts the ERG group in an awful spot now!)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think when MP's are asked to vote on something this big then they should be privileged with every form of information available to make an informed decision.

This..

Apart from voting to declare war this issue is pretty much up there.. "

disagree ... it's especially important for a government to give full and comprehensive disclosure of ALL information, not just to parliament but also to the public, previous to any vote pertaining to a declaration of war

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By *bandjam91Couple
over a year ago

London

"Shit will hit the fan now now the eyes have it poor old centaur how will he sleep tonight

Gonna get behind a Peoples Vote then, after all it's your only chance for a Red, White and Blue Brexit now?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A trap of your own making, Centaur, because neither you nor any your chums on the extreme of British politics ever had a clue how to reconcile leaving the EU with having an open border with the EU.

Not a trap of my own making, a trap of Theresa May and Olly Robbins making.

Name one Brexit candidate that could have done any better? They all quit to snipe from the sidelines.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"A trap of your own making, Centaur, because neither you nor any your chums on the extreme of British politics ever had a clue how to reconcile leaving the EU with having an open border with the EU.

Not a trap of my own making, a trap of Theresa May and Olly Robbins making.

Nah.

You had years and years to figure out a solution.

Raab didn't come up with any solution, just different way to kick the can further down the street.

No-one has.

So I'll ask again, where is the solution to leaving the EU and keeping an open border with the EU?

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By *bandjam91Couple
over a year ago

London

"A trap of your own making, Centaur, because neither you nor any your chums on the extreme of British politics ever had a clue how to reconcile leaving the EU with having an open border with the EU.

Not a trap of my own making, a trap of Theresa May and Olly Robbins making.

Name one Brexit candidate that could have done any better? They all quit to snipe from the sidelines."

It's the Brexiteer way:

"Tell you what chaps, can you lot unite and implement our vision while we sit this one out but continue pointing out problems and not offer any workable suggestions? No, you're a traitor, burn you, burn you!"

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"So the government only want certain parts of the report he known, sounds like they have something to hide ?"

I honestly don't think there's any thing much in there that we don't already know.

I also think that client attorney confidentiality is pretty important, even if the client is the Government.

The only thing this whole contempt thing is actually going to sort out is who is ultimately sovereign, Parliament or the Government. It's meant to be Parliament and, as the Government has now submitted to the will of Parliament, Parliament's sovereignty has been confirmed. This bodes well for post 11 December and BREXIT.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This isn’t a trap.

The Belfast agreement was the trap.

Brexit has shone a spotlight on this. Before then we were in the dark but as we we weren’t trying to move we didn’t notice. . But we were still trapped.

Mays deal, with its non unilateral terms, has simply removed the machete we could have used to cut out leg off to escape.

But if Mays agreement is voted in, then it probably means we’d never actually use the machete. So we shouldn’t be too upset that it’s been given up.

Grieves amendment means we are going to at least ask the question whether cutting out leg off is the best plan. Because no one has really thought what this means.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Shit will hit the fan now now the eyes have it poor old centaur how will he sleep tonight

I don't think she's trying to hide it. It's already clear and admitted that the backstop, once activated, can not be exited with the consent of both parties or a binding arbitration panel. There's nothing to hide.

This whole thing has nothing at all to do with the actual legal advice and everything to do with Parliamentary sovereignty, whether it actually exists and whether Parliament has the stomach to enforce its will. What's happened to day confirms that sovereignty does lie with Parliament, not the Government, and that it does have the stomach to enforce its will.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It will be interesting to a) see if there is anything in there which puts a different light on the summary statement and b) what is there which goes against the public interest

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

[Removed by poster at 05/12/18 13:10:45]

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

So, pretty much what I said. I bit more explicit and clearly stated but still the same. If we get into the backstop we can't get out of it until we have an agreement with the EU that doesn't require a border on the island of Ireland.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"So, pretty much what I said. I bit more explicit and clearly stated but still the same. If we get into the backstop we can't get out of it until we have an agreement with the EU that doesn't require a border on the island of Ireland.

Ah the joys of finding your in a position where if you break an internationally binding treaty with a 'small and weak' country that you could crush your actually breaking that treaty with the largest (and richest) trading block in world.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

It's simpler than that.

The EU won't let go of Britain's short and curlies until it comes up with a proposal that satisfies the Republic of Ireland.

In order to leave the EU, the UK must fix the border to the satisfaction of its neighbour.

It has had two years to do so and failed. Now it has been given another two years.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

It's simpler than that.

The EU won't let go of Britain's short and curlies until it comes up with a proposal that satisfies the Republic of Ireland.

In order to leave the EU, the UK must fix the border to the satisfaction of its neighbour.

It has had two years to do so and failed. Now it has been given another two years."

Then also under the backstop the UK can have a competitive advantage over other full members of the EU, we would be in the customs union and won't be paying any membership fee and we won't have to abide by any free movement rules. Other full EU members are not going to be happy about the UK having a competitive advantage like that over them in the backstop.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's simpler than that.

The EU won't let go of Britain's short and curlies until it comes up with a proposal that satisfies the Republic of Ireland.

In order to leave the EU, the UK must fix the border to the satisfaction of its neighbour.

It has had two years to do so and failed. Now it has been given another two years.

So are we saying CU is good in principle. But not worth the current entrance fee ?

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

So are we saying CU is good in principle. But not worth the current entrance fee ?"

It's simpler than that. The full EU membership is worth it, instead.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

two things with regards to the above...

1) er....... nope!!!!!! well, okay i take that back... one part of the UK does well under this deal... guess which? (spoiler... its the one with the land border! which makes it doubly weird why the DUP are so against!)

2) if that was true for the whole uk, why aren't your brexiteer brethren jumping all on this deal!!! after all.. if they were truely at an advantage then aren't they acting against the country's interest?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So are we saying CU is good in principle. But not worth the current entrance fee ?

It's simpler than that. The full EU membership is worth it, instead.

I don't think there's fee's regarding just a Customs Union agreement, only being an EU member / being part of the Single Market is where membership fees come into play.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's simpler than that.

The EU won't let go of Britain's short and curlies until it comes up with a proposal that satisfies the Republic of Ireland.

In order to leave the EU, the UK must fix the border to the satisfaction of its neighbour.

It has had two years to do so and failed. Now it has been given another two years."

And after another 2 years it will still be the same issue so what then another 2 years? and another ?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

And after another 2 years it will still be the same issue so what then another 2 years? and another ? "

Well, you can't say the Brexit cheerleaders weren't warned about this.

They have known for years - and been unable to come up with any sort of solution for years.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost, and they do not like it.

Time to chuck their toys out of the pram.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's simpler than that.

The EU won't let go of Britain's short and curlies until it comes up with a proposal that satisfies the Republic of Ireland.

In order to leave the EU, the UK must fix the border to the satisfaction of its neighbour.

It has had two years to do so and failed. Now it has been given another two years.

And after another 2 years it will still be the same issue so what then another 2 years? and another ? "

Don’t be silly. JRM and DD would have created the super cameras by then.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Then they have nothing to worry about.

The backstop exists in case they do not come up with a solution that Ireland agrees with.

They'd be better off investing their time and energy in finding a solution, than trying to wriggle out of a cordial agreement with Ireland.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Then they have nothing to worry about.

The backstop exists in case they do not come up with a solution that Ireland agrees with.

They'd be better off investing their time and energy in finding a solution, than trying to wriggle out of a cordial agreement with Ireland.

Would that be orange cordial or lime?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Roll on Tuesday. The trap is being set. All sides posture and Prevaricate but on Tuesday will jump into a huge trap set by the PM which will bag 400 + MPs. Alot of them will need to get their begging bowls out from their constituents if they want to remain in Parliament. It will be an interesting general election when it's called. The alternative parties should do well.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Roll on Tuesday. The trap is being set. All sides posture and Prevaricate but on Tuesday will jump into a huge trap set by the PM which will bag 400 + MPs. Alot of them will need to get their begging bowls out from their constituents if they want to remain in Parliament. It will be an interesting general election when it's called. The alternative parties should do well."
surely they just vote for the deal, as it delivers what was on the referendum? Where’s the trap ?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Would that be orange cordial or lime?

Orange and green

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Roll on Tuesday. The trap is being set. All sides posture and Prevaricate but on Tuesday will jump into a huge trap set by the PM which will bag 400 + MPs. Alot of them will need to get their begging bowls out from their constituents if they want to remain in Parliament. It will be an interesting general election when it's called. The alternative parties should do well.surely they just vote for the deal, as it delivers what was on the referendum? Where’s the trap ?"

Well it depends how you look at it.

PM was a reluctant leaver as we all know.

EU think they have us on toast, she said to them at last meeting, OK what is your very very very best deal you are prepared to offer, knowing it would be a bit shit. She thought, hmmmmmmm whatever it is I will accept and put it to Parliament knowing it would not get through in a month of Sundays. She knows there will be a clamour from MPs for a new referendum, it's the only way out of this blind alley. Corbyn gets labelled with the leave campaign as he is an avowed leaver so get heap loads of shit on him and his party too as a result.

She can quite happily campaign as a remain prime minister with a clear conscience because the only 2 questions on the ballot paper will be leave with no deal or remain again. Binary vote as her deal is as dead as a dodo. That pile of shit will never get on the ballot paper.

The Conservatives will no doubt have a vote of no confidence which she will win because majority of Tories are remain MPs. Game set and match Theresa May. She has engineered another referendum. OK leave may ride crest of wave of fuck it we've had enough of EU as a nation but at least we'll all be united again as we all collectively jump off the cliff shouting " Geronimo" in Unison.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Little clues in what she says. Thinks like "we have to hold our nerve or "I am endeavouring to deliver Brexit" . Never says that "I support No deal Brexit." Never says what she will do if she loses. It's why she is so certain of herself.

The only thing that can go wrong is the deal is voted through and her bluff is called.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Little clues in what she says. Thinks like "we have to hold our nerve or "I am endeavouring to deliver Brexit" . Never says that "I support No deal Brexit." Never says what she will do if she loses. It's why she is so certain of herself.

The only thing that can go wrong is the deal is voted through and her bluff is called."

Other than the extreme idiots who believe in hard brexit - the no deal scenario is like wearing a suicide vest! No matter what happens it's going to be the MP'S who will ultimately get blamed, those who voted for leave will never accept blame! However if by magic the UK booms then that will be "the get out of jail card"!

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

It won’t feel like a boom when panic buying clears the supermarket shelves because the “perishables” are rotting in the queues at Dover.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It won’t feel like a boom when panic buying clears the supermarket shelves because the “perishables” are rotting in the queues at Dover."

Project fear Sara tut tut

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Yes, yes, it's all one huge conspiracy to thwart the "will of the people".

You know, those ones who voted to erect barriers across the nation's supply chain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To the MPs. If they do vote for a referendum can we have it before Xmas so that we can enjoy it and get on with out lives in 2019

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"To the MPs. If they do vote for a referendum can we have it before Xmas so that we can enjoy it and get on with out lives in 2019

p.s. We are bored to ffffffing death with it so know all the arguments. We have been doing it for the last 2.5 years.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"To the MPs. If they do vote for a referendum can we have it before Xmas so that we can enjoy it and get on with out lives in 2019

p.s. We are bored to ffffffing death with it so know all the arguments. We have been doing it for the last 2.5 years."
tbf while I know the questions i still don’t know what some of the answers are.

Eg what will happen with the border in no deal.

Will the WTO schedule etc be in place

What Eu institutions will we be fully out of (with no side deals) and which will there be side deals for (see technical notes).

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

A WTO schedule will be in place.... whether it is the WTO schedule the UK government actually wants is more debatable.....

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"A WTO schedule will be in place.... whether it is the WTO schedule the UK government actually wants is more debatable....."

The UK has a WTO schedule...

It is called the EU WTO schedule.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Theresa Mays deal is a side show. It's a motion if you'll forgive the pun that has to be gone through, Treat it as a bit like a big dump. It get's rid of the tummy ache and makes us feel a bit better after. Hopefully.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"A WTO schedule will be in place.... whether it is the WTO schedule the UK government actually wants is more debatable.....

The UK has a WTO schedule...

It is called the EU WTO schedule.

This is what brexiteers fail to understand... they want to go from the EU WTO schedule to the most basic schedule out there... well the cheeky fuckers wanted to keep the EU schedule but all the other countries said “not going to happen!”

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A WTO schedule will be in place.... whether it is the WTO schedule the UK government actually wants is more debatable.....

The UK has a WTO schedule...

It is called the EU WTO schedule.

Cake and eat it! The problem is those who led the rhetoric ended up believing the UK was invincible. History charts the UK declining in influence from WW1. After WW2 and the break up of the empire we were just another little voice. However the imperialists fail to acknowledge the fact!

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