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"Sadly we are all too pampered to feel the need for a wider social responsibility these days and that’s why stupid protest votes (brexit/UKIP) are gaining such ground in the world. The imbalance of wealth between London and the south east and the rest of the UK is destabilising any sense of nationhood and the disgusting behaviour of racist fascistic political groups preying on the fear of foreigners compounds the situation. Thatcher once said there was no such thing as society and it seems to me that nowadays we are represented by either the ineffectual infighters of the Labour Party or the unrestrained radicalism and laissez-faire attitude of the Conservatives. The liberal or social democratic movement in this country has failed miserably under the onslaught of the media to become a coherent opposition and so we have a divided nation that reminds me of what life was like when I was a boy in the 70’s and the country was on the rocks. Now I am just off to Waitrose....can I get you anything? "Profit isn't a dirty word we need it to make it worthwhile to invest. We don't need the ultra left either - not one leftist or communist state has been successful! We don't need Looney rightism either! As said you need reward for risk to encourage entrepreneurs etc - but we need good ones - those are in short supply in the UK. Wealth creation is good but what's not good is excessive wealth or unfair wealth. What I mean in 1970 the boss earned 20x more than the man on the production line, today it's 130x. The UK doesn't distribute its wealth evenly - in fact we have one of the worst records in the World. We used to call it the North - South divide back in the 70's and guess what - nothing has changed! But here is the question: In London we have probably the best financial services in the World - they arrange deals for governments around the world, for multinationals - so why can't they do a deal for example for the North East? Why does Dyson invent things and make them overseas? Answer - productivity in the UK is in the main terrible. There are some notable exceptions but far too few. The British (average) worker produces about 10% less than the Italians, 30% less than the French and 35% less than the Germans & the Americans. We also rely too much on foreign investment as opposed to "self investment ". We need to change! | |||
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"It is astonishing that society has dumbed down to such a degree that it is now acceptable to believe that someone else (ie foreigners) must be to blame for the ills in our society. The concept of personal responsibility appears to have disappeared." . Not really, the left is obsessed with it and has been for hundreds of years. | |||
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"Sadly we are all too pampered to feel the need for a wider social responsibility these days and that’s why stupid protest votes (brexit/UKIP) are gaining such ground in the world. The imbalance of wealth between London and the south east and the rest of the UK is destabilising any sense of nationhood and the disgusting behaviour of racist fascistic political groups preying on the fear of foreigners compounds the situation. Thatcher once said there was no such thing as society and it seems to me that nowadays we are represented by either the ineffectual infighters of the Labour Party or the unrestrained radicalism and laissez-faire attitude of the Conservatives. The liberal or social democratic movement in this country has failed miserably under the onslaught of the media to become a coherent opposition and so we have a divided nation that reminds me of what life was like when I was a boy in the 70’s and the country was on the rocks. Now I am just off to Waitrose....can I get you anything?
Profit isn't a dirty word we need it to make it worthwhile to invest. We don't need the ultra left either - not one leftist or communist state has been successful!
We don't need Looney rightism either! As said you need reward for risk to encourage entrepreneurs etc - but we need good ones - those are in short supply in the UK. Wealth creation is good but what's not good is excessive wealth or unfair wealth. What I mean in 1970 the boss earned 20x more than the man on the production line, today it's 130x.
The UK doesn't distribute its wealth evenly - in fact we have one of the worst records in the World. We used to call it the North - South divide back in the 70's and guess what - nothing has changed! But here is the question:
In London we have probably the best financial services in the World - they arrange deals for governments around the world, for multinationals - so why can't they do a deal for example for the North East?
Why does Dyson invent things and make them overseas? Answer - productivity in the UK is in the main terrible. There are some notable exceptions but far too few. The British (average) worker produces about 10% less than the Italians, 30% less than the French and 35% less than the Germans & the Americans. We also rely too much on foreign investment as opposed to "self investment ". We need to change!"The problem we have is a legacy of crap education and piss poor middle management being rewarded for average performance. Investment in this country has followed a unified model for too long. Pension funds investing in unimaginative retail schemes and shopping centres that kill off high streets and increase car usage (a very suburban outlook at work) and an inability to confront the pensioners who are reaping the rewards of their very good pensions to the detriment of the young. Selfish and short sighted and unimaginative but also completely irresponsible. I do believe that if you have the get up and go to start your own business and make a go of it you should be rewarded but there are far too many people who earn very comfortable salaries with good pensions for just managing businesses rather than creating and growing wealth. | |||
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"Sadly we are all too pampered to feel the need for a wider social responsibility these days and that’s why stupid protest votes (brexit/UKIP) are gaining such ground in the world. The imbalance of wealth between London and the south east and the rest of the UK is destabilising any sense of nationhood and the disgusting behaviour of racist fascistic political groups preying on the fear of foreigners compounds the situation. Thatcher once said there was no such thing as society and it seems to me that nowadays we are represented by either the ineffectual infighters of the Labour Party or the unrestrained radicalism and laissez-faire attitude of the Conservatives. The liberal or social democratic movement in this country has failed miserably under the onslaught of the media to become a coherent opposition and so we have a divided nation that reminds me of what life was like when I was a boy in the 70’s and the country was on the rocks. Now I am just off to Waitrose....can I get you anything?
Profit isn't a dirty word we need it to make it worthwhile to invest. We don't need the ultra left either - not one leftist or communist state has been successful!
We don't need Looney rightism either! As said you need reward for risk to encourage entrepreneurs etc - but we need good ones - those are in short supply in the UK. Wealth creation is good but what's not good is excessive wealth or unfair wealth. What I mean in 1970 the boss earned 20x more than the man on the production line, today it's 130x.
The UK doesn't distribute its wealth evenly - in fact we have one of the worst records in the World. We used to call it the North - South divide back in the 70's and guess what - nothing has changed! But here is the question:
In London we have probably the best financial services in the World - they arrange deals for governments around the world, for multinationals - so why can't they do a deal for example for the North East?
Why does Dyson invent things and make them overseas? Answer - productivity in the UK is in the main terrible. There are some notable exceptions but far too few. The British (average) worker produces about 10% less than the Italians, 30% less than the French and 35% less than the Germans & the Americans. We also rely too much on foreign investment as opposed to "self investment ". We need to change!
The problem we have is a legacy of crap education and piss poor middle management being rewarded for average performance. Investment in this country has followed a unified model for too long. Pension funds investing in unimaginative retail schemes and shopping centres that kill off high streets and increase car usage (a very suburban outlook at work) and an inability to confront the pensioners who are reaping the rewards of their very good pensions to the detriment of the young. Selfish and short sighted and unimaginative but also completely irresponsible. I do believe that if you have the get up and go to start your own business and make a go of it you should be rewarded but there are far too many people who earn very comfortable salaries with good pensions for just managing businesses rather than creating and growing wealth."Agree with you 100%! | |||
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"It is astonishing that society has dumbed down to such a degree that it is now acceptable to believe that someone else (ie foreigners) must be to blame for the ills in our society. The concept of personal responsibility appears to have disappeared." Perhaps, more than a dumbed down society, I think it is about a very loud minority; loud and agressive. | |||
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" Perhaps, more than a dumbed down society, I think it is about a very loud minority; loud and agressive. " Underestimate at your peril the power of social media and the ability of malign actors to manipulate people in their echo chambers. | |||
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" We often think that fascism is a grainy, black-and-white newsreel affair, with ranting leaders in ridiculous uniforms strutting around a far off time. Today’s fascists are rather different, with their open-necked shirts and social media profiles. Yet the philosophy is identical. There is the same contempt for democracy, nowadays labelled “the Establishment”. Traditional politicians are vilified as corrupt, self-seeking failures, just as they were in the 1920s and 1930s. “Foreigners”, at home and abroad, are blamed for complex economic problems. Protectionism is grasped at as a quick fix; free trade is misunderstood and despised. International organisations, such as the UN and EU, are attacked for their “interference” in domestic affairs. Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. " Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. | |||
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" Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. " And if the vote had been 52/48 to remain, Centaur would be saying: "Oh well, that's that, then. Hurrah for the EU, let's make it work."  | |||
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" We often think that fascism is a grainy, black-and-white newsreel affair, with ranting leaders in ridiculous uniforms strutting around a far off time. Today’s fascists are rather different, with their open-necked shirts and social media profiles. Yet the philosophy is identical. There is the same contempt for democracy, nowadays labelled “the Establishment”. Traditional politicians are vilified as corrupt, self-seeking failures, just as they were in the 1920s and 1930s. “Foreigners”, at home and abroad, are blamed for complex economic problems. Protectionism is grasped at as a quick fix; free trade is misunderstood and despised. International organisations, such as the UN and EU, are attacked for their “interference” in domestic affairs. Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. " All this talk about fascism, yet there are no actual fascist parties or organisations in the UK, not one. What the op is quoting, looks like the same old shit published by Searchlight Magazine and Hope not Hate’s blogs. They exist only to blame the whole worlds problems on Nationalists. Parties such as the National Front. They are White Nationalists, but not fascists and certainly not the type of people who wish to open extermination camps. Its just Zionist paranoia spreading, pandered to by the snowflake generation. Then we have the most idiotic of them all, those who believe that BREXIT in the UK and the election of Donald Trump in the US, is the start of a Fourth Reich in two nations that are among the most democratic in the world, if not the most democratic. It’s bizarre, the rabid paranoia, and the ridiculous accusations made by liberals who lost big time in one referendum and one presidential election. It’s all a lot of trouble about nothing, and it is continually facilitated by the far left. | |||
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" We often think that fascism is a grainy, black-and-white newsreel affair, with ranting leaders in ridiculous uniforms strutting around a far off time. Today’s fascists are rather different, with their open-necked shirts and social media profiles. Yet the philosophy is identical. There is the same contempt for democracy, nowadays labelled “the Establishment”. Traditional politicians are vilified as corrupt, self-seeking failures, just as they were in the 1920s and 1930s. “Foreigners”, at home and abroad, are blamed for complex economic problems. Protectionism is grasped at as a quick fix; free trade is misunderstood and despised. International organisations, such as the UN and EU, are attacked for their “interference” in domestic affairs. Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. " In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher described referendum as “a device of dictators and demagogues”. Thatcher was quoting Clement Attlee who noticed that Hitler, Mussolini and Napoleon III used referendum to legitimise decisions they had made. If we look at referendum before Wordl War II we can see how Mussolini and Hitler used them to their advantage. March 1929 – Italy approves single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. July 1933 – Hitler grants himself the power to hold referendums. November 1933 – Germans vote to leave the League of Nations in referendum. March 1934 – Italians confirm approval of single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. August 1934 – Germans approve combining posts of Chancellor & President in referendum. March 1936 – Germany approve single-party rule & occupation of Rhineland in referendum. April 1938 – Germans approve single list of Nazi candidates for Reichstag & Anschluss with Austria in referendum. There is nothing democratic about Referendum, what ever the result. | |||
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" We often think that fascism is a grainy, black-and-white newsreel affair, with ranting leaders in ridiculous uniforms strutting around a far off time. Today’s fascists are rather different, with their open-necked shirts and social media profiles. Yet the philosophy is identical. There is the same contempt for democracy, nowadays labelled “the Establishment”. Traditional politicians are vilified as corrupt, self-seeking failures, just as they were in the 1920s and 1930s. “Foreigners”, at home and abroad, are blamed for complex economic problems. Protectionism is grasped at as a quick fix; free trade is misunderstood and despised. International organisations, such as the UN and EU, are attacked for their “interference” in domestic affairs. Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher described referendum as “a device of dictators and demagogues”. Thatcher was quoting Clement Attlee who noticed that Hitler, Mussolini and Napoleon III used referendum to legitimise decisions they had made. If we look at referendum before Wordl War II we can see how Mussolini and Hitler used them to their advantage. March 1929 – Italy approves single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. July 1933 – Hitler grants himself the power to hold referendums. November 1933 – Germans vote to leave the League of Nations in referendum. March 1934 – Italians confirm approval of single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. August 1934 – Germans approve combining posts of Chancellor & President in referendum. March 1936 – Germany approve single-party rule & occupation of Rhineland in referendum. April 1938 – Germans approve single list of Nazi candidates for Reichstag & Anschluss with Austria in referendum. There is nothing democratic about Referendum, what ever the result. " Interesting! | |||
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" We often think that fascism is a grainy, black-and-white newsreel affair, with ranting leaders in ridiculous uniforms strutting around a far off time. Today’s fascists are rather different, with their open-necked shirts and social media profiles. Yet the philosophy is identical. There is the same contempt for democracy, nowadays labelled “the Establishment”. Traditional politicians are vilified as corrupt, self-seeking failures, just as they were in the 1920s and 1930s. “Foreigners”, at home and abroad, are blamed for complex economic problems. Protectionism is grasped at as a quick fix; free trade is misunderstood and despised. International organisations, such as the UN and EU, are attacked for their “interference” in domestic affairs. Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. All this talk about fascism, yet there are no actual fascist parties or organisations in the UK, not one. What the op is quoting, looks like the same old shit published by Searchlight Magazine and Hope not Hate’s blogs. They exist only to blame the whole worlds problems on Nationalists. Parties such as the National Front. They are White Nationalists, but not fascists and certainly not the type of people who wish to open extermination camps. Its just Zionist paranoia spreading, pandered to by the snowflake generation. Then we have the most idiotic of them all, those who believe that BREXIT in the UK and the election of Donald Trump in the US, is the start of a Fourth Reich in two nations that are among the most democratic in the world, if not the most democratic. It’s bizarre, the rabid paranoia, and the ridiculous accusations made by liberals who lost big time in one referendum and one presidential election. It’s all a lot of trouble about nothing, and it is continually facilitated by the far left. " Populists, whether on the right or left, are only a few steps away from fascists. And that's the other mistake you and even more on the left make, that fascism is a product of the right. It's not. It's the natural result of populism from either the left or the right. | |||
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" We often think that fascism is a grainy, black-and-white newsreel affair, with ranting leaders in ridiculous uniforms strutting around a far off time. Today’s fascists are rather different, with their open-necked shirts and social media profiles. Yet the philosophy is identical. There is the same contempt for democracy, nowadays labelled “the Establishment”. Traditional politicians are vilified as corrupt, self-seeking failures, just as they were in the 1920s and 1930s. “Foreigners”, at home and abroad, are blamed for complex economic problems. Protectionism is grasped at as a quick fix; free trade is misunderstood and despised. International organisations, such as the UN and EU, are attacked for their “interference” in domestic affairs. Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher described referendum as “a device of dictators and demagogues”. Thatcher was quoting Clement Attlee who noticed that Hitler, Mussolini and Napoleon III used referendum to legitimise decisions they had made. If we look at referendum before Wordl War II we can see how Mussolini and Hitler used them to their advantage. March 1929 – Italy approves single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. July 1933 – Hitler grants himself the power to hold referendums. November 1933 – Germans vote to leave the League of Nations in referendum. March 1934 – Italians confirm approval of single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. August 1934 – Germans approve combining posts of Chancellor & President in referendum. March 1936 – Germany approve single-party rule & occupation of Rhineland in referendum. April 1938 – Germans approve single list of Nazi candidates for Reichstag & Anschluss with Austria in referendum. There is nothing democratic about Referendum, what ever the result. " On the contrary, it can be argued that referendums are the purest form of democracy that exist. 1 person, 1 vote and every vote counts! You harp on about democracy but like a lot of remoaners and Clinton supporters it seems you only like democracy when the result goes your way. | |||
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" We often think that fascism is a grainy, black-and-white newsreel affair, with ranting leaders in ridiculous uniforms strutting around a far off time. Today’s fascists are rather different, with their open-necked shirts and social media profiles. Yet the philosophy is identical. There is the same contempt for democracy, nowadays labelled “the Establishment”. Traditional politicians are vilified as corrupt, self-seeking failures, just as they were in the 1920s and 1930s. “Foreigners”, at home and abroad, are blamed for complex economic problems. Protectionism is grasped at as a quick fix; free trade is misunderstood and despised. International organisations, such as the UN and EU, are attacked for their “interference” in domestic affairs. Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher described referendum as “a device of dictators and demagogues”. Thatcher was quoting Clement Attlee who noticed that Hitler, Mussolini and Napoleon III used referendum to legitimise decisions they had made. If we look at referendum before Wordl War II we can see how Mussolini and Hitler used them to their advantage. March 1929 – Italy approves single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. July 1933 – Hitler grants himself the power to hold referendums. November 1933 – Germans vote to leave the League of Nations in referendum. March 1934 – Italians confirm approval of single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. August 1934 – Germans approve combining posts of Chancellor & President in referendum. March 1936 – Germany approve single-party rule & occupation of Rhineland in referendum. April 1938 – Germans approve single list of Nazi candidates for Reichstag & Anschluss with Austria in referendum. There is nothing democratic about Referendum, what ever the result. " Will the next Hitler or Mussolini be British? That would be such a history paradox! Scary parallel between 2016 and 1933... | |||
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" We often think that fascism is a grainy, black-and-white newsreel affair, with ranting leaders in ridiculous uniforms strutting around a far off time. Today’s fascists are rather different, with their open-necked shirts and social media profiles. Yet the philosophy is identical. There is the same contempt for democracy, nowadays labelled “the Establishment”. Traditional politicians are vilified as corrupt, self-seeking failures, just as they were in the 1920s and 1930s. “Foreigners”, at home and abroad, are blamed for complex economic problems. Protectionism is grasped at as a quick fix; free trade is misunderstood and despised. International organisations, such as the UN and EU, are attacked for their “interference” in domestic affairs. Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. Contempt for democracy you say? The only contempt for democracy I'm seeing in the UK is that displayed by rabid remoaners. In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher described referendum as “a device of dictators and demagogues”. Thatcher was quoting Clement Attlee who noticed that Hitler, Mussolini and Napoleon III used referendum to legitimise decisions they had made. If we look at referendum before Wordl War II we can see how Mussolini and Hitler used them to their advantage. March 1929 – Italy approves single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. July 1933 – Hitler grants himself the power to hold referendums. November 1933 – Germans vote to leave the League of Nations in referendum. March 1934 – Italians confirm approval of single-party list for Mussolini’s National Fascist Party in referendum. August 1934 – Germans approve combining posts of Chancellor & President in referendum. March 1936 – Germany approve single-party rule & occupation of Rhineland in referendum. April 1938 – Germans approve single list of Nazi candidates for Reichstag & Anschluss with Austria in referendum. There is nothing democratic about Referendum, what ever the result. On the contrary, it can be argued that referendums are the purest form of democracy that exist. 1 person, 1 vote and every vote counts! You harp on about democracy but like a lot of remoaners and Clinton supporters it seems you only like democracy when the result goes your way. " When I talk about democracy I mean representative democracy and, while I don't support or agree with Trump, I have never questioned the democratic legitimacy of the vote. In fact, having studied the US electoral college system, I fully support it as valid democratic process for electing POTUS even if I don't like the result this time around. | |||
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" Was going to put the link here to the full article but i seem to have lost it. " Possibly the Stand up to Racism conference this Saturday? | |||
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"What were the political systems in Italy and Germany before the fascists came to power? It must have failed drastically. " Both had parliamentary systems and in both cases the fascists were in a minority when they gained power in coalition with conventional right wing parties who thought they could control and tame them. | |||
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"What were the political systems in Italy and Germany before the fascists came to power? It must have failed drastically. " Just Google it and you will find all the facts you need. But yes it was a big failure. Germany the aggressors of WW1 were forced to capitulate and lost land, humiliated by the allies what they could and couldn't do. The Germans had nothing! The people were poor and scraping an existence - Hitler promised the world and gradually swept into power and turned things around - remind you of something? A very interesting period in history - problem is not many people are interested in how it happened other than a few academics but it's very very similar to now. Trump used the same tactics to gain power as Hitler in some of his speeches. Watch the "rise and fall of Hitler " - it will open your eyes! Lesson over. | |||
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"What about Italy? What had gone wrong there? And what political system was failing the Germans?" don't be lazy look it up yourself - if your that interested. But a clue what's happening now - far right get a champion and that champion spears the word and others follow - Mussolini, Franco etc etc | |||
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"What about Italy? What had gone wrong there? And what political system was failing the Germans?" Italy was on the winning side effects on WW1, but didn't get as much out of the war as they expected. The left did very well in the first elections after the war and there was an upsurge in trade union activity with strikes and factory occupations. Employers and right wing parties took fright at this and Mussolini organised gangs of thugs to beat up trade unionists and leftists. . That became the fascist party. They are a minimal electoral presence put were strong on the streets. In order to harness this power, the right agreed that Mussolini could be pm in a coalition government where the fascists were in a minority. That was in 1922. It took four years for Mussolini to destroy the other parties, including the right wing ones who put him in power. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one. "The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system. "Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok. "They could have abolished the monarchy through Parliament as anti monarchical parties had a majority. (mainly because the king had Co operated with the fascists). I think it would have been better than way m | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok. "The fact that a referendum can sometimes produce a good result (and voting to become a republic is not in everyone's opinion a good result) or a result that I'm in favour of does change my opinion that they are not a good or even democratic way to make decisions. In order for any decision making process to be democratic there has to be accountability but in a referendum there is none. Regardless of which way you vote if the winning side can not deliver then who is held accountable? In the EU referendum Leave won but it's the Conservative government that is being held accountable, even though the Conservative party and government at the time were officially for Remain. Meanwhile there is no way to hold Fararge or Gisela Stuart accountable at all. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok.
The fact that a referendum can sometimes produce a good result (and voting to become a republic is not in everyone's opinion a good result) or a result that I'm in favour of does change my opinion that they are not a good or even democratic way to make decisions. In order for any decision making process to be democratic there has to be accountability but in a referendum there is none. Regardless of which way you vote if the winning side can not deliver then who is held accountable? In the EU referendum Leave won but it's the Conservative government that is being held accountable, even though the Conservative party and government at the time were officially for Remain. Meanwhile there is no way to hold Fararge or Gisela Stuart accountable at all.
"That makes sense. I always thought the Tory plan was to fuck up brexit so that they could carry on getting rich. So far that seems to be accurate. | |||
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"What were the political systems in Italy and Germany before the fascists came to power? It must have failed drastically. " Germany was never Fascist, National Socialism is a bit different. But before Hitler got in to power, Germany was still suffering from the after effects of losing WW1. The Marc was almost worthless, a hundred would not by a loaf of bread. It was pretty desperate and nobody wanted to help. | |||
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" Those like me who believe in democracy, in human rights, in regulated markets, need a new narrative. " Why do we treat democracy like a deity? Go back through your own life and think how you came to the opinion that it's the best. It was forced down our throats as the "best" system used by civil societies by government and media. Now I'm raising an eyebrow | |||
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" When I talk about democracy I mean representative democracy and, while I don't support or agree with Trump, I have never questioned the democratic legitimacy of the vote. In fact, having studied the US electoral college system, I fully support it as valid democratic process for electing POTUS even if I don't like the result this time around. " Blind faith in a broken system. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok. "Also sounds a bit like Alistair Campbell on the BBC This Week programme last night when in one sentence he said he doesn't like referendums and thinks they are a poor way to achieve outcomes. Then in the next sentence he said he wanted another People's vote referendum to remain in the EU. So he thinks referendums are poor but he wants another one, lol, sounds a bit like the OP.  | |||
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" Germany was never Fascist, National Socialism is a bit different." Do you recognise the Holocaust? | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok.
Also sounds a bit like Alistair Campbell on the BBC This Week programme last night when in one sentence he said he doesn't like referendums and thinks they are a poor way to achieve outcomes. Then in the next sentence he said he wanted another People's vote referendum to remain in the EU. So he thinks referendums are poor but he wants another one, lol, sounds a bit like the OP. "I suspect both would prefer MPs to step up and become the trustees of their constituents, not their delegate (or worse, delegate of the “people” not even their constituents)... and then fight to take brexit in the direction they believe to be best. Including democratically reversing article 50. However see a second reforendum as the best alternative. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok.
Also sounds a bit like Alistair Campbell on the BBC This Week programme last night when in one sentence he said he doesn't like referendums and thinks they are a poor way to achieve outcomes. Then in the next sentence he said he wanted another People's vote referendum to remain in the EU. So he thinks referendums are poor but he wants another one, lol, sounds a bit like the OP.
I suspect both would prefer MPs to step up and become the trustees of their constituents, not their delegate (or worse, delegate of the “people” not even their constituents)... and then fight to take brexit in the direction they believe to be best. Including democratically reversing article 50. However see a second reforendum as the best alternative. "Which is exactly where I stand on the issue of a 3rd referendum. If Theresa can come back with a deal, even if it's not exactly what I want, and can get that deal through Parliament then that's it. We go ahead with that BREXIT deal. However if she can't, and I don't believe she can, then the only way out is to put it back to the people in a 3rd referendum. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok.
Also sounds a bit like Alistair Campbell on the BBC This Week programme last night when in one sentence he said he doesn't like referendums and thinks they are a poor way to achieve outcomes. Then in the next sentence he said he wanted another People's vote referendum to remain in the EU. So he thinks referendums are poor but he wants another one, lol, sounds a bit like the OP.
I suspect both would prefer MPs to step up and become the trustees of their constituents, not their delegate (or worse, delegate of the “people” not even their constituents)... and then fight to take brexit in the direction they believe to be best. Including democratically reversing article 50. However see a second reforendum as the best alternative.
Which is exactly where I stand on the issue of a 3rd referendum.
If Theresa can come back with a deal, even if it's not exactly what I want, and can get that deal through Parliament then that's it. We go ahead with that BREXIT deal. However if she can't, and I don't believe she can, then the only way out is to put it back to the people in a 3rd referendum."Not true, we still have the option of a no deal BREXIT, which is preferable to taking whatever bullshit the EU would be in favour of offering us. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok.
Also sounds a bit like Alistair Campbell on the BBC This Week programme last night when in one sentence he said he doesn't like referendums and thinks they are a poor way to achieve outcomes. Then in the next sentence he said he wanted another People's vote referendum to remain in the EU. So he thinks referendums are poor but he wants another one, lol, sounds a bit like the OP.
I suspect both would prefer MPs to step up and become the trustees of their constituents, not their delegate (or worse, delegate of the “people” not even their constituents)... and then fight to take brexit in the direction they believe to be best. Including democratically reversing article 50. However see a second reforendum as the best alternative.
Which is exactly where I stand on the issue of a 3rd referendum.
If Theresa can come back with a deal, even if it's not exactly what I want, and can get that deal through Parliament then that's it. We go ahead with that BREXIT deal. However if she can't, and I don't believe she can, then the only way out is to put it back to the people in a 3rd referendum.
Not true, we still have the option of a no deal BREXIT, which is preferable to taking whatever bullshit the EU would be in favour of offering us."And a breach of contract bill of £36bn - fab deal! | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok.
Also sounds a bit like Alistair Campbell on the BBC This Week programme last night when in one sentence he said he doesn't like referendums and thinks they are a poor way to achieve outcomes. Then in the next sentence he said he wanted another People's vote referendum to remain in the EU. So he thinks referendums are poor but he wants another one, lol, sounds a bit like the OP.
I suspect both would prefer MPs to step up and become the trustees of their constituents, not their delegate (or worse, delegate of the “people” not even their constituents)... and then fight to take brexit in the direction they believe to be best. Including democratically reversing article 50. However see a second reforendum as the best alternative.
Which is exactly where I stand on the issue of a 3rd referendum.
If Theresa can come back with a deal, even if it's not exactly what I want, and can get that deal through Parliament then that's it. We go ahead with that BREXIT deal. However if she can't, and I don't believe she can, then the only way out is to put it back to the people in a 3rd referendum.
Not true, we still have the option of a no deal BREXIT, which is preferable to taking whatever bullshit the EU would be in favour of offering us.
And a breach of contract bill of £36bn - fab deal! "Where do you get that from? A House of Lords report said that legally in the event of no deal the UK is not obliged to pay the EU a single penny. | |||
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"Oh i see, Italy had a proportional representation system that allowed the fascists a voice. But became a republic after a referendum. I guess that referendum was a good one.
The referendum was in 1946 and abolished the monarchy. It didn't change the electoral system.
Yes i read that. Earlier in the thread it seemed to me that referendums were getting a bit of bad press, but i expect that one was ok.
Also sounds a bit like Alistair Campbell on the BBC This Week programme last night when in one sentence he said he doesn't like referendums and thinks they are a poor way to achieve outcomes. Then in the next sentence he said he wanted another People's vote referendum to remain in the EU. So he thinks referendums are poor but he wants another one, lol, sounds a bit like the OP.
I suspect both would prefer MPs to step up and become the trustees of their constituents, not their delegate (or worse, delegate of the “people” not even their constituents)... and then fight to take brexit in the direction they believe to be best. Including democratically reversing article 50. However see a second reforendum as the best alternative.
Which is exactly where I stand on the issue of a 3rd referendum.
If Theresa can come back with a deal, even if it's not exactly what I want, and can get that deal through Parliament then that's it. We go ahead with that BREXIT deal. However if she can't, and I don't believe she can, then the only way out is to put it back to the people in a 3rd referendum.
Not true, we still have the option of a no deal BREXIT, which is preferable to taking whatever bullshit the EU would be in favour of offering us.
And a breach of contract bill of £36bn - fab deal!
Where do you get that from? A House of Lords report said that legally in the event of no deal the UK is not obliged to pay the EU a single penny. "I think they call it wishful thinking.. | |||
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"It is astonishing that society has dumbed down to such a degree that it is now acceptable to believe that someone else (ie foreigners) must be to blame for the ills in our society. The concept of personal responsibility appears to have disappeared." Very true but it is not people from other countries it is also our government they attack yes life is what you make it,people need to look at themeselves | |||
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