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 n]
NOUN.
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
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"Is strike action a crime? " It is for the swivel eyed foaming at the mouth brexit extremists .Theyll be hanging judges next from the lamp posts after their daily mail headline fix . First they came for the unions .  | |||
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"Is strike action a crime? " "A Labour MP has issued calls for the first general strike in more than 90 years in a bid to bring down the Conservative government." No, but trying to overthrow the Govt is. | |||
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"Is strike action a crime? " Of course not, if the employer has been mistreating its employees. The general strike being called for is to try and bring about a regime change, in a nation that has had plenty of chances to do this via the ballot box. Attempting to use strike action to topple a government is not the same as using it to have a positive affect on workers rights. | |||
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"The far left in this country are gaining in confidence because of the liberal latch on of those who wish to remain in the EU. Also the decline of the LibDems has been a gift for those red Brit haters. Unfortunately none of it has been enough thus far. So now they are shouting about direct action, and those actions would send us back to the dark old days of the 1970’s, three day weeks, power cuts, strikes and even more political divides. Labour are traitors, and they are prepared to bring this country down to further their own agenda..." If your going to address why the far left have gained support you need to look at the effects of the cuts in services and austerity, the insecurity of workers with no contracts etc among other issues which has had influence.. Equally the far right increase is also more than just saying fascist scum feel emboldened by things like brexit.. | |||
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"Much as I do not like the current leftist Labour party, this is a bit generalist isn't It? Yes they do have the odd misguided missile....but don't all parties boast a lunatic fringe? Yes they have one MP calling for a strike. We know that this will not happen unless they want to be seen by the voting public as irresponsible and prove their unfitness for government. Calling all supporters traitors is branding a large group of people with prejudice. Yes they may want to spend lots of money that they do not have despite saying they have. Yes they may not have sorted their anti semitism problem despite saying they have. Yes their leaders have leaned towards supporting dubious groups as they claim "in support of a peace process" despite not meaningfully engaging with both sides. Yes they still cannot maintain clarity on Brexit other to oppose anything that anyone else puts forward. I can go on....there is plenty to criticise but treason is not the right argument." The odd misguided missle? "Crewe and Nantwich MP Laura Smith told crowds that the party “must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can”. “And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,” she said. The call prompted a standing ovation from the cheering audience - including shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon, who was also on stage. " A standing ovation sounds more like a few thousand "misguided missiles"... Momentum are a dangerous force, they are rapidly taking over the Labour Party.  | |||
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"Much as I do not like the current leftist Labour party, this is a bit generalist isn't It? Yes they do have the odd misguided missile....but don't all parties boast a lunatic fringe? Yes they have one MP calling for a strike. We know that this will not happen unless they want to be seen by the voting public as irresponsible and prove their unfitness for government. Calling all supporters traitors is branding a large group of people with prejudice. Yes they may want to spend lots of money that they do not have despite saying they have. Yes they may not have sorted their anti semitism problem despite saying they have. Yes their leaders have leaned towards supporting dubious groups as they claim "in support of a peace process" despite not meaningfully engaging with both sides. Yes they still cannot maintain clarity on Brexit other to oppose anything that anyone else puts forward. I can go on....there is plenty to criticise but treason is not the right argument. The odd misguided missle? "Crewe and Nantwich MP Laura Smith told crowds that the party “must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can”. “And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,” she said. The call prompted a standing ovation from the cheering audience - including shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon, who was also on stage. " A standing ovation sounds more like a few thousand "misguided missiles"... Momentum are a dangerous force, they are rapidly taking over the Labour Party. "Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? | |||
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"Whilst I think it's a silly idea put forward by a silly person, in law calling for a strike to pressurise the government is not treason. Treason is defined by the Treason Acts of 1351, 1702 and 1708 and the Treason Felony Act of 1848. There is nothing in any of the acts defining non violent coercion of the government as treason. " I guess the dictionary disagrees... "Treason. ['tri?zn] NOUN. the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government." | |||
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"Whilst I think it's a silly idea put forward by a silly person, in law calling for a strike to pressurise the government is not treason. Treason is defined by the Treason Acts of 1351, 1702 and 1708 and the Treason Felony Act of 1848. There is nothing in any of the acts defining non violent coercion of the government as treason. I guess the dictionary disagrees... "Treason. ['tri?zn] NOUN. the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government."" The courts in England operate what acts of Parliament say not what dictionaries say. The definition may be different in other countries, but in the UK pressurising the government to change its policies by going on strike is not treason. | |||
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"And... she didn't call for a "strike to pressurise the government, " bring an end to this government with a general strike"... her words. In other words, overthrow the government, which is treason." It's only treason if you "levy war" against the monarch. In other words use violence to overthrow the government. Using non violent means to overthrow the government is not treason. | |||
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"And... she didn't call for a "strike to pressurise the government, " bring an end to this government with a general strike"... her words. In other words, overthrow the government, which is treason. It's only treason if you "levy war" against the monarch. In other words use violence to overthrow the government. Using non violent means to overthrow the government is not treason. " Yeah, I mean, no strikes ever got violent, or killed people did they, I mean, lets look at recent history, and the miners strike...….oh, wait  | |||
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"The far left in this country are gaining in confidence because of the liberal latch on of those who wish to remain in the EU. Also the decline of the LibDems has been a gift for those red Brit haters. Unfortunately none of it has been enough thus far. So now they are shouting about direct action, and those actions would send us back to the dark old days of the 1970’s, three day weeks, power cuts, strikes and even more political divides. Labour are traitors, and they are prepared to bring this country down to further their own agenda... If your going to address why the far left have gained support you need to look at the effects of the cuts in services and austerity, the insecurity of workers with no contracts etc among other issues which has had influence.. Equally the far right increase is also more than just saying fascist scum feel emboldened by things like brexit.. " . I'm not a fan of austerity for the sake of it, we know where people turn when the screw is turned. I am a fan of tighter social security measures for the sake of enabling a better "pay off" for working. Unfortunately the wealthy and big business are allergic to inflation so we've allowed this to run out,I don't think it will end well for any of us and Jeremey Corbyn despite having your faith won't be able to do anything about it under EU rules and conditions. | |||
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"And... she didn't call for a "strike to pressurise the government, " bring an end to this government with a general strike"... her words. In other words, overthrow the government, which is treason. It's only treason if you "levy war" against the monarch. In other words use violence to overthrow the government. Using non violent means to overthrow the government is not treason. Yeah, I mean, no strikes ever got violent, or killed people did they, I mean, lets look at recent history, and the miners strike...….oh, wait "If violence was used it might be treason. Just not going to work wouldn't be. | |||
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"And... she didn't call for a "strike to pressurise the government, " bring an end to this government with a general strike"... her words. In other words, overthrow the government, which is treason. It's only treason if you "levy war" against the monarch. In other words use violence to overthrow the government. Using non violent means to overthrow the government is not treason. Yeah, I mean, no strikes ever got violent, or killed people did they, I mean, lets look at recent history, and the miners strike...….oh, wait
If violence was used it might be treason. Just not going to work wouldn't be. "And I repeat … "Do you really think that, if a General Strike was called, that those dickheads in Momentum wouldn't use it as an excuse to create merry hell?" | |||
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"Whatever it is it's not very democratic and as for momentum they are slowly taking over the labour party.But they have already proved they don't believe in democracy by trying to decide select MPs who don't agree with them." | |||
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"And... she didn't call for a "strike to pressurise the government, " bring an end to this government with a general strike"... her words. In other words, overthrow the government, which is treason. It's only treason if you "levy war" against the monarch. In other words use violence to overthrow the government. Using non violent means to overthrow the government is not treason. Yeah, I mean, no strikes ever got violent, or killed people did they, I mean, lets look at recent history, and the miners strike...….oh, wait
If violence was used it might be treason. Just not going to work wouldn't be.
And I repeat …
"Do you really think that, if a General Strike was called, that those dickheads in Momentum wouldn't use it as an excuse to create merry hell?""But she called for a general strike not for violence, hence she wasn't calling for treason. She's not responsible for what other people might do. | |||
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"Whatever it is it's not very democratic and as for momentum they are slowly taking over the labour party.But they have already proved they don't believe in democracy by trying to decide select MPs who don't agree with them." No, they are suggesting labour party members should decide who labour candidates are in any given constituency, which seems very democratic to me. It would then, of course, be up to the voters as to whether they elect the Labour candidate as their MP. Momentum have no role in that at all. | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries?" And all those are certainties or is it the red top right wing media being quoted.. | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries?" Are you now saying that people who voted for BREXIT are traitors also? | |||
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"I think momentum are giving the Labour Party an adrenaline boost .Its all positive when the youth engage with politics . "Not if they are being encouraged to overthrow the government my undemocratic means it's not. | |||
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"What would I call it? “Democracy”. -Matt" Calling a general strike to overthrow the government can in no way be considered democratic. | |||
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"Whatever it is it's not very democratic and as for momentum they are slowly taking over the labour party.But they have already proved they don't believe in democracy by trying to decide select MPs who don't agree with them. No, they are suggesting labour party members should decide who labour candidates are in any given constituency, which seems very democratic to me. It would then, of course, be up to the voters as to whether they elect the Labour candidate as their MP. Momentum have no role in that at all. " Yes but if it makes the MP more accountable to the party than to his constituents is it really more democratic overall? | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries? Are you now saying that people who voted for BREXIT are traitors also?" How would you come to that conclusion? The decision to leave the EU was arrived at by the democratic means of a vote, open to all voting age adults in the UK who are UK citizens. | |||
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"Whatever it is it's not very democratic and as for momentum they are slowly taking over the labour party.But they have already proved they don't believe in democracy by trying to decide select MPs who don't agree with them. No, they are suggesting labour party members should decide who labour candidates are in any given constituency, which seems very democratic to me. It would then, of course, be up to the voters as to whether they elect the Labour candidate as their MP. Momentum have no role in that at all. Yes but if it makes the MP more accountable to the party than to his constituents is it really more democratic overall?" "No, they are suggesting Momentum members should decide who labour candidates are in any given constituency, which seems very un-democratic to me. It would then, of course, be up to the Momentum members as to whether they elect the Labour candidate as their MP" FIFY | |||
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" Labour MP Laura Smith Calls For First General Strike In 90 Years To Bring Down The Government. A Labour MP has issued calls for the first general strike in more than 90 years in a bid to bring down the Conservative government. Speaking at Momentum’s World Transformed festival - which is running alongside Labour’s annual conference in Liverpool - Crewe and Nantwich MP Laura Smith told crowds that the party “must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can”. “And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,” she said. The call prompted a standing ovation from the cheering audience - including shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon, who was also on stage. Treason. ['tri?z n]
NOUN.
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
"Really, treason? So you think that withdrawing labour should be treason! That seems to me to be straight out of the Nazi/Stalinist dictators population control manual. What would you suggest should be done to those who strike without the approval of the state? Do you favour Nazi style concentration and slave labour camps? Or maybe Soviet style Gulag political prisons and closed city slave labour? Or maybe your a fan of the South American model of removing political opposition where those that strike get herded into football stadiums and disappear? Funny how those who claim to be defending democracy always seem to be the ones demanding that opposition be outlawed. | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries? Are you now saying that people who voted for BREXIT are traitors also? How would you come to that conclusion? The decision to leave the EU was arrived at by the democratic means of a vote, open to all voting age adults in the UK who are UK citizens." Same result though. Also, people didn't know what they were voting for (as clearly demonstrated by the fact that we still don't have a coherent negotiating position) | |||
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"What would I call it? “Democracy”. -Matt Calling a general strike to overthrow the government can in no way be considered democratic. " you wouldn't need to call it a general strike.... you would just need to get all the unions to vote on strike action at the same time to just get the dates to "co-incide" | |||
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" Treason. ['tri?z n]
NOUN.
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
"if that is the definition, i could happily apply the "overthrow the government" bit to JRM and his "ERG" group of MP's..... | |||
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" Labour MP Laura Smith Calls For First General Strike In 90 Years To Bring Down The Government. A Labour MP has issued calls for the first general strike in more than 90 years in a bid to bring down the Conservative government. Speaking at Momentum’s World Transformed festival - which is running alongside Labour’s annual conference in Liverpool - Crewe and Nantwich MP Laura Smith told crowds that the party “must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can”. “And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,” she said. The call prompted a standing ovation from the cheering audience - including shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon, who was also on stage. Treason. ['tri?z n]
NOUN.
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
Really, treason? So you think that withdrawing labour should be treason! That seems to me to be straight out of the Nazi/Stalinist dictators population control manual. What would you suggest should be done to those who strike without the approval of the state? Do you favour Nazi style concentration and slave labour camps? Or maybe Soviet style Gulag political prisons and closed city slave labour? Or maybe your a fan of the South American model of removing political opposition where those that strike get herded into football stadiums and disappear?
Funny how those who claim to be defending democracy always seem to be the ones demanding that opposition be outlawed."I don't think going on strike should be called treason, and that's not what I said in the OP. I said, that inciting the calling of a general strike with the intent to overthrow the government should be classed as treason. You want to change the party in power? Then go to the ballot box and put your x on the bit of paper. | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries? Are you now saying that people who voted for BREXIT are traitors also? How would you come to that conclusion? The decision to leave the EU was arrived at by the democratic means of a vote, open to all voting age adults in the UK who are UK citizens." As maybe but BREXIT is going to lead to pain in all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries. So what's the difference? | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries? Are you now saying that people who voted for BREXIT are traitors also? How would you come to that conclusion? The decision to leave the EU was arrived at by the democratic means of a vote, open to all voting age adults in the UK who are UK citizens. As maybe but BREXIT is going to lead to pain in all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries. So what's the difference? " I think you want that to happen, just so you can crow about being right, unfortunately for you, I am of the opinion that life in the UK post-Brexit will be little different from the situation we have now. | |||
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" Labour MP Laura Smith Calls For First General Strike In 90 Years To Bring Down The Government. A Labour MP has issued calls for the first general strike in more than 90 years in a bid to bring down the Conservative government. Speaking at Momentum’s World Transformed festival - which is running alongside Labour’s annual conference in Liverpool - Crewe and Nantwich MP Laura Smith told crowds that the party “must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can”. “And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,” she said. The call prompted a standing ovation from the cheering audience - including shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon, who was also on stage. Treason. ['tri?z n]
NOUN.
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
Really, treason? So you think that withdrawing labour should be treason! That seems to me to be straight out of the Nazi/Stalinist dictators population control manual. What would you suggest should be done to those who strike without the approval of the state? Do you favour Nazi style concentration and slave labour camps? Or maybe Soviet style Gulag political prisons and closed city slave labour? Or maybe your a fan of the South American model of removing political opposition where those that strike get herded into football stadiums and disappear?
Funny how those who claim to be defending democracy always seem to be the ones demanding that opposition be outlawed.
I don't think going on strike should be called treason, and that's not what I said in the OP.
I said, that inciting the calling of a general strike with the intent to overthrow the government should be classed as treason.
You want to change the party in power? Then go to the ballot box and put your x on the bit of paper."When your family is starving or being turfed out of their home, you don't wait four years for the next election to come round and hope things get better. It's one of the reasons it's called direct action. It's immediate, and it scares the hell out of the powers that be, both government and the Corporations. Its the only real power the people of this country have. Never give it away. | |||
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"When your family is starving or being turfed out of their home, you don't wait four years for the next election to come round and hope things get better. It's one of the reasons it's called direct action. It's immediate, and it scares the hell out of the powers that be, both government and the Corporations. Its the only real power the people of this country have. Never give it away."
At least one here understands.
I am continually amazed by the number of posters who fail to understand that every freedom they have has had to be taken by force from those who wield power and those that wield power are continually looking for ways to subvert or reacquire the power they have ceded us the proletariat they consider to be their servants and wish to hand the power our parents, grandparents and great grandparents died to gain back to our oppressors.
I know my words sound melodramatic, but we are living in a comic melodrama!
The poor blame the poorer for the rich making the poor poorer because the rich tell them to! If that is not the plot of the most cheesy of 70's comic melodramas what is? And I have just described modern UK/US politics! | |||
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"Whilst I think it's a silly idea put forward by a silly person, in law calling for a strike to pressurise the government is not treason. Treason is defined by the Treason Acts of 1351, 1702 and 1708 and the Treason Felony Act of 1848. There is nothing in any of the acts defining non violent coercion of the government as treason. I guess the dictionary disagrees... "Treason. ['tri?zn] NOUN. the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government."" Treason as a criminal offence, is defined by the law, not by the dictionary | |||
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" Labour MP Laura Smith Calls For First General Strike In 90 Years To Bring Down The Government. A Labour MP has issued calls for the first general strike in more than 90 years in a bid to bring down the Conservative government. Speaking at Momentum’s World Transformed festival - which is running alongside Labour’s annual conference in Liverpool - Crewe and Nantwich MP Laura Smith told crowds that the party “must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can”. “And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,” she said. The call prompted a standing ovation from the cheering audience - including shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon, who was also on stage. Treason. ['tri?z n]
NOUN.
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
Really, treason? So you think that withdrawing labour should be treason! That seems to me to be straight out of the Nazi/Stalinist dictators population control manual. What would you suggest should be done to those who strike without the approval of the state? Do you favour Nazi style concentration and slave labour camps? Or maybe Soviet style Gulag political prisons and closed city slave labour? Or maybe your a fan of the South American model of removing political opposition where those that strike get herded into football stadiums and disappear?
Funny how those who claim to be defending democracy always seem to be the ones demanding that opposition be outlawed.
I don't think going on strike should be called treason, and that's not what I said in the OP.
I said, that inciting the calling of a general strike with the intent to overthrow the government should be classed as treason.
You want to change the party in power? Then go to the ballot box and put your x on the bit of paper."I missed the but where it was overthrowing the government. Forcing an democratic election feels different to overthrowing. Some have hypothesised that a three lien whip on the Eu deal from labour + tory rebels will result in a GE. Are JRM et al also up for treason ? | |||
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"When your family is starving or being turfed out of their home, you don't wait four years for the next election to come round and hope things get better. It's one of the reasons it's called direct action. It's immediate, and it scares the hell out of the powers that be, both government and the Corporations. Its the only real power the people of this country have. Never give it away.
At least one here understands.
I am continually amazed by the number of posters who fail to understand that every freedom they have has had to be taken by force from those who wield power and those that wield power are continually looking for ways to subvert or reacquire the power they have ceded us the proletariat they consider to be their servants and wish to hand the power our parents, grandparents and great grandparents died to gain back to our oppressors.
I know my words sound melodramatic, but we are living in a comic melodrama!
The poor blame the poorer for the rich making the poor poorer because the rich tell them to! If that is not the plot of the most cheesy of 70's comic melodramas what is? And I have just described modern UK/US politics! "Very true. Look at every major "concession" and it was to steer off revolt. Abolition of slavery? Did our parliamentarians have a sudden spasm of humanity? No, a vast number owned plantations in the West Indies. The public mood was threatening after being shown drawings of the slave ships - if they can do that to African peasants, they can do it to British peasants. Phased abolition staved off the sort of French revolution that terrified the establishment here. Fast forward to World War 1. Hundreds of thousands of young men, with no vote, being conscripted to the slaughter. Again, as the reality dawned on the masses, and the establishment became terrified of the communist movement spreading from Russia, ceding some power to the working class via the ballot box was their way of tempering the public mood. No-one ever gives up power willingly, but as a means of survival and preservation of privilege. The Royal Family in this country are the masters of it. | |||
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" Labour MP Laura Smith Calls For First General Strike In 90 Years To Bring Down The Government. A Labour MP has issued calls for the first general strike in more than 90 years in a bid to bring down the Conservative government. Speaking at Momentum’s World Transformed festival - which is running alongside Labour’s annual conference in Liverpool - Crewe and Nantwich MP Laura Smith told crowds that the party “must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can”. “And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,” she said. The call prompted a standing ovation from the cheering audience - including shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon, who was also on stage. Treason. ['tri?z n]
NOUN.
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
Really, treason? So you think that withdrawing labour should be treason! That seems to me to be straight out of the Nazi/Stalinist dictators population control manual. What would you suggest should be done to those who strike without the approval of the state? Do you favour Nazi style concentration and slave labour camps? Or maybe Soviet style Gulag political prisons and closed city slave labour? Or maybe your a fan of the South American model of removing political opposition where those that strike get herded into football stadiums and disappear?
Funny how those who claim to be defending democracy always seem to be the ones demanding that opposition be outlawed.
I don't think going on strike should be called treason, and that's not what I said in the OP.
I said, that inciting the calling of a general strike with the intent to overthrow the government should be classed as treason.
You want to change the party in power? Then go to the ballot box and put your x on the bit of paper.
I missed the but where it was overthrowing the government. Forcing an democratic election feels different to overthrowing. Some have hypothesised that a three lien whip on the Eu deal from labour + tory rebels will result in a GE. Are JRM et al also up for treason ?"Jeez, can you not read, or are you just blind to what she said? "“And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,”. | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries? Are you now saying that people who voted for BREXIT are traitors also? How would you come to that conclusion? The decision to leave the EU was arrived at by the democratic means of a vote, open to all voting age adults in the UK who are UK citizens. As maybe but BREXIT is going to lead to pain in all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries. So what's the difference? " Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria " UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. | |||
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"Whatever it is it's not very democratic and as for momentum they are slowly taking over the labour party.But they have already proved they don't believe in democracy by trying to decide select MPs who don't agree with them." You do know how members are deselected don't you?  | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. " Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules" Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) | |||
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"I'm not the one making the suggestion. The warnings are from trade bodies across the food and drink sector, and reported in the trade press. The message from each is remarkably similar. The Government clearly is taking them seriously by giving a Minister specific responsibility for maintaining supplies. This is from the chief exec of the Food and Drink Federation: Ian Wright CBE, FDF chief executive, said: “Today’s Technical Notices lay bare the grisly prospect of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit. We face chaos at the ports, serious disruption to food supplies, increasing business costs, rising consumer prices and ever more administrative burdens on the food and drink industry. “The Technical Notices show that a ‘no-deal’ Brexit will have a severe impact on UK food and drink supplies and trade from March 2019. Upon leaving the EU, UK exports would face the EU’s prohibitively high WTO Most Favoured Nation tariffs, which would make many products uncompetitive and threaten the success of more than £13bn of our industry’s annual exports. If the UK were to waive checks on food and ingredient imports into the UK, as suggested, we would face legal challenges via the WTO while considerably undermining our reputation with the WTO’s 163 other members. “UK food and drink manufacturers will need to make immediate and costly changes to product labelling to remove references to the EU in origin labelling. Additionally, a product labelled with a UK Food Business Operator’s name and address would no longer be able to be sold in EU markets, however this would be mandatory for products sold in the UK. The limited timeframe for such changes and the accompanying administrative burdens further threaten the success of UK export sales to the EU, our largest export market. If EU consumers are unable to access UK food and drink, the chances are they will switch to other sources of supply and those export markets will be lost forever.” He added that consignments of food items, which include a wide range of bakery and confectionery goods heading to the continent will require physical and documentation inspections as they enter the EU. He highlighted the present lack of present inspection facilities at Calais, which he believed would create further major trading issues. Significantly, he added that UK shoppers accustomed to year-round availability of a host of food items, face the prospect of reduced availability of goods in the event of no agreement being struck over Brexit. Mr Wright said that companies were already attempting to respond with a number of measures including stockpiling, buying-ahead, hedging currency risk, procuring additional warehousing, as well as relocating production to the EU, and other practical measures to secure supply. He added: “The consequences of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit for UK food and drink are starting to be felt already. The impacts will snowball as we get closer to March 2019. Instead of lecturing the EU, the Government must secure a withdrawal agreement imminently or begin the arrangements to extend the Article 50 deadline so that they can do so in an orderly fashion.” " You do realise that this is grandstanding by both sides to apply pressure to a deal, don't you? | |||
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"Whilst I think it's a silly idea put forward by a silly person, in law calling for a strike to pressurise the government is not treason. Treason is defined by the Treason Acts of 1351, 1702 and 1708 and the Treason Felony Act of 1848. There is nothing in any of the acts defining non violent coercion of the government as treason. I guess the dictionary disagrees... "Treason. ['tri?zn] NOUN. the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government."" What matters is the legal definition, not the methodology beloved of bar room lawyers and DM headline writers. You were given the correct definition above. Oh I know, it's only "treason" if the left do it, whereas if the right (particularly those with money and influence) attempt to coerce the behaviour of Government (check out Murdoch's approach re Blair et al) it's not. | |||
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"I'm not the one making the suggestion. The warnings are from trade bodies across the food and drink sector, and reported in the trade press. The message from each is remarkably similar. The Government clearly is taking them seriously by giving a Minister specific responsibility for maintaining supplies. This is from the chief exec of the Food and Drink Federation: Ian Wright CBE, FDF chief executive, said: “Today’s Technical Notices lay bare the grisly prospect of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit. We face chaos at the ports, serious disruption to food supplies, increasing business costs, rising consumer prices and ever more administrative burdens on the food and drink industry. “The Technical Notices show that a ‘no-deal’ Brexit will have a severe impact on UK food and drink supplies and trade from March 2019. Upon leaving the EU, UK exports would face the EU’s prohibitively high WTO Most Favoured Nation tariffs, which would make many products uncompetitive and threaten the success of more than £13bn of our industry’s annual exports. If the UK were to waive checks on food and ingredient imports into the UK, as suggested, we would face legal challenges via the WTO while considerably undermining our reputation with the WTO’s 163 other members. “UK food and drink manufacturers will need to make immediate and costly changes to product labelling to remove references to the EU in origin labelling. Additionally, a product labelled with a UK Food Business Operator’s name and address would no longer be able to be sold in EU markets, however this would be mandatory for products sold in the UK. The limited timeframe for such changes and the accompanying administrative burdens further threaten the success of UK export sales to the EU, our largest export market. If EU consumers are unable to access UK food and drink, the chances are they will switch to other sources of supply and those export markets will be lost forever.” He added that consignments of food items, which include a wide range of bakery and confectionery goods heading to the continent will require physical and documentation inspections as they enter the EU. He highlighted the present lack of present inspection facilities at Calais, which he believed would create further major trading issues. Significantly, he added that UK shoppers accustomed to year-round availability of a host of food items, face the prospect of reduced availability of goods in the event of no agreement being struck over Brexit. Mr Wright said that companies were already attempting to respond with a number of measures including stockpiling, buying-ahead, hedging currency risk, procuring additional warehousing, as well as relocating production to the EU, and other practical measures to secure supply. He added: “The consequences of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit for UK food and drink are starting to be felt already. The impacts will snowball as we get closer to March 2019. Instead of lecturing the EU, the Government must secure a withdrawal agreement imminently or begin the arrangements to extend the Article 50 deadline so that they can do so in an orderly fashion.” " They want to maintain the easy life they have so will say anything to keep that, we import/export lots of food from around the world quite happily now, no reason for it to be any different for EU produced goods,perhaps it will encourage us to eat seasonal food and home produced food reducing the food miles which would be good for the environment | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government)" "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt | |||
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"I'm not the one making the suggestion. The warnings are from trade bodies across the food and drink sector, and reported in the trade press. The message from each is remarkably similar. The Government clearly is taking them seriously by giving a Minister specific responsibility for maintaining supplies. This is from the chief exec of the Food and Drink Federation: Ian Wright CBE, FDF chief executive, said: “Today’s Technical Notices lay bare the grisly prospect of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit. We face chaos at the ports, serious disruption to food supplies, increasing business costs, rising consumer prices and ever more administrative burdens on the food and drink industry. “The Technical Notices show that a ‘no-deal’ Brexit will have a severe impact on UK food and drink supplies and trade from March 2019. Upon leaving the EU, UK exports would face the EU’s prohibitively high WTO Most Favoured Nation tariffs, which would make many products uncompetitive and threaten the success of more than £13bn of our industry’s annual exports. If the UK were to waive checks on food and ingredient imports into the UK, as suggested, we would face legal challenges via the WTO while considerably undermining our reputation with the WTO’s 163 other members. “UK food and drink manufacturers will need to make immediate and costly changes to product labelling to remove references to the EU in origin labelling. Additionally, a product labelled with a UK Food Business Operator’s name and address would no longer be able to be sold in EU markets, however this would be mandatory for products sold in the UK. The limited timeframe for such changes and the accompanying administrative burdens further threaten the success of UK export sales to the EU, our largest export market. If EU consumers are unable to access UK food and drink, the chances are they will switch to other sources of supply and those export markets will be lost forever.” He added that consignments of food items, which include a wide range of bakery and confectionery goods heading to the continent will require physical and documentation inspections as they enter the EU. He highlighted the present lack of present inspection facilities at Calais, which he believed would create further major trading issues. Significantly, he added that UK shoppers accustomed to year-round availability of a host of food items, face the prospect of reduced availability of goods in the event of no agreement being struck over Brexit. Mr Wright said that companies were already attempting to respond with a number of measures including stockpiling, buying-ahead, hedging currency risk, procuring additional warehousing, as well as relocating production to the EU, and other practical measures to secure supply. He added: “The consequences of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit for UK food and drink are starting to be felt already. The impacts will snowball as we get closer to March 2019. Instead of lecturing the EU, the Government must secure a withdrawal agreement imminently or begin the arrangements to extend the Article 50 deadline so that they can do so in an orderly fashion.” They want to maintain the easy life they have so will say anything to keep that, we import/export lots of food from around the world quite happily now, no reason for it to be any different for EU produced goods,perhaps it will encourage us to eat seasonal food and home produced food reducing the food miles which would be good for the environment" Reduce the food miles? I thought we were doing "bold" new trade deals with New Zealand and the likes for their goods? Currently 30% of our food we consume comes from the EU, that is quite a significant amount if we have to start sourcing it from elsewhere. -Matt | |||
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" My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt" So at long last you admit that the EU not agreeing a trade deal will affect their companies, remind me again which side wants a trade deal and the one playing silly buggers | |||
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" Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government)" Businesses use their federations to articulate concerns, because it avoids exposing individual firms to political controversy. These businesses need to comply with regulations governing food safety, food labelling, cross-border transport etc etc. In the single market, these are well understood and common across the EU28. The preparation notices issued by the EU and the technical notices issued by the UK set out what will happen when the UK sits outside of the single market and is no longer subject to EU regulations. Taking back control of the borders means reinstating a whole range of infrastructure and red tape that was eradicated during the development of the single market. Food imported into the UK after March will be subject to tariffs of 30 per cent or so, slightly less for raw ingredients. It is wishful thinking to believe the absence of an agreement between the UK and EU means an absence of border controls, customs, tariffs etc. The EU simply will not import food from a country with which it has no agreement governing quality standards, labelling etc. Neither should the UK. Don't forget the UK will have not one single agreement with any country in the world regarding quality standards, labelling etc. Whereas the EU will. While the UK loses its trades agreements with the entire world, the EU only loses its trade agreement with the UK, basically, | |||
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" Reduce the food miles? I thought we were doing "bold" new trade deals with New Zealand and the likes for their goods? Currently 30% of our food we consume comes from the EU, that is quite a significant amount if we have to start sourcing it from elsewhere. -Matt" Your 30% figure is based on farm gate value so its hard to tell the physical quantity, but again it shows that its important for the EU to secure a trade deal with us, why would they shoot themselves in the foot | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt" Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. | |||
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" My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt So at long last you admit that the EU not agreeing a trade deal will affect their companies, remind me again which side wants a trade deal and the one playing silly buggers" We are the ones playing silly buggers. But at the moment it is not the EU refusing to agree to a deal, we so far have not put much on the table apart from the Chequers deal with was rejected as being unworkable before it ever got there. -Matt | |||
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" Labour MP Laura Smith Calls For First General Strike In 90 Years To Bring Down The Government. A Labour MP has issued calls for the first general strike in more than 90 years in a bid to bring down the Conservative government. Speaking at Momentum’s World Transformed festival - which is running alongside Labour’s annual conference in Liverpool - Crewe and Nantwich MP Laura Smith told crowds that the party “must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can”. “And if we can’t get a general election, we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to bring an end to this government with a general strike,” she said. The call prompted a standing ovation from the cheering audience - including shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon, who was also on stage. Treason. ['tri?z n]
NOUN.
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
"I take it that, when you're not posting DM inspired labels such as treason, you have failed to notice that trade union membership and consequent power/bargaining strength is but a shadow of what it once was, so any call for a general strike is going to fail because of that, never mind that in tandem an awful lot of even union members are now trapped in the debt yoke and can't afford to lose pay given their house/car and other toys hanging round their necks. So the only way a general strike would work would be if there was massive public support for the action. If there was massive public support are you saying they should just shut up and go away? So let's suppose the strike went ahead and the government fell. What happens next? There would be a general election (sorry to disappoint you but it wasn't a military coup you see). Then if the public elect a Labour government that's because they wanted to. If they re-elect the outgoing government then that is also because that's what they wanted. Should the latter happen then no doubt the DM would have an orgasm as the incoming government would be wide open to bringing in more swingeing anti-union legislation. Ergo, unless the instigators of a general strike had the public behind them they'd be bloody stupid to go there. So stop frothing. As a previous poster advised you: try alcohol or take a chill pill. | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. " Actually, legally, we have to. Under WTO rules we would have to put tariffs on. Remember, those WTO rules that some brexiteers bang on about wanting to trade under. -Matt | |||
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" Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. " Defaulting to WTO rules mean applying WTO tariffs. For a lot of foodstuff, it is in the region of 30 % It is the most basic set of rules governing trade between different states. Withdraw from the WTO and the UK really is fucked. Utterly fucked. | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. Actually, legally, we have to. Under WTO rules we would have to put tariffs on. Remember, those WTO rules that some brexiteers bang on about wanting to trade under. -Matt" WE could if we wanted drop all tariffs on food or charge the same to all at a rate we set, that could well hit the eu hard | |||
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" Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. Defaulting to WTO rules mean applying WTO tariffs. For a lot of foodstuff, it is in the region of 30 % It is the most basic set of rules governing trade between different states. Withdraw from the WTO and the UK really is fucked. Utterly fucked. " PANIC!
Believe the scaremongering if it suits you. European federalism and the ever tightening grip of multi-national capitalism needs people like you. | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. Actually, legally, we have to. Under WTO rules we would have to put tariffs on. Remember, those WTO rules that some brexiteers bang on about wanting to trade under. -Matt WE could if we wanted drop all tariffs on food or charge the same to all at a rate we set, that could well hit the eu hard" Uh, huh. I bet our local food producers will love you if we drop tariffs on all food imports. That is if we manage to negotiate our tariff rate quotas with the rest of the WTO members in the first place. -Matt | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. Actually, legally, we have to. Under WTO rules we would have to put tariffs on. Remember, those WTO rules that some brexiteers bang on about wanting to trade under. -Matt WE could if we wanted drop all tariffs on food or charge the same to all at a rate we set, that could well hit the eu hard Uh, huh. I bet our local food producers will love you if we drop tariffs on all food imports. That is if we manage to negotiate our tariff rate quotas with the rest of the WTO members in the first place. -Matt" Removing all food tariffs will kill off UK based farm production. I wonder why that wasnt on the side of a bus? | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries? Are you now saying that people who voted for BREXIT are traitors also? How would you come to that conclusion? The decision to leave the EU was arrived at by the democratic means of a vote, open to all voting age adults in the UK who are UK citizens. As maybe but BREXIT is going to lead to pain in all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries. So what's the difference? I think you want that to happen, just so you can crow about being right, unfortunately for you, I am of the opinion that life in the UK post-Brexit will be little different from the situation we have now." Well, just like your opinion on life in the UK post-Brexit, your thoughts on what I want to happen are completely wrong. | |||
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""Would you accept that for some in our society that the policies of this government have been cruel and callous? " Yes. Bu that happens to some in society no matter what party get in. Would you rather that Corbyn et al turned the UK into some sort of "Venezuala-esk" basket case? Would you be happier if the pain was spread to all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries? Are you now saying that people who voted for BREXIT are traitors also? How would you come to that conclusion? The decision to leave the EU was arrived at by the democratic means of a vote, open to all voting age adults in the UK who are UK citizens. As maybe but BREXIT is going to lead to pain in all sectors of society, with food queues for all, massive hyper-inflation, huge rampant unemployment, and companies abandoning the UK for other countries. So what's the difference? Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria " While I'm definitely not in favour of a Corbyn lead Labour government I'm simply pointing out that all the things many experts say maybe the result of such a government even more experts are saying will be what happens post BREXIT. | |||
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" Remind me again on how much of uk GDP relies on eu trade and are you suggesting that we will lose it all ? Why on earth will there be food queues ? Project fear has become project hysteria UK is a net importer of food. The supply chain has been slimmed to such a degree that it operates "just in time", i.e. there are no voids between production and retail. The concern is delays at frontiers caused by the reinstatement of border infrastructure and insufficient staff to process all the paperwork will cause food to perish. I guess you just need to pop into your supermarket and look at, say, the veg aisle. A packet of tomatoes from Holland or Spain, use by date two days from now. It emerged yesterday the UK now has a Minister specifically responsible for food supplies. The last time UK had such a post was during rationing in World War Two. Even if and thats a big if there are delays it isnt difficult to add a couple of days to the supply time allowance, are you suggesting that we are suddenly going to say that a load of toms from spain are not going to be let in the day after B day, the EU may play silly buggers on our exports but that deosnt mean we have to be so petty,and when does anybody take any notice of use by dates? Remember supermarkets make a profit by selling us food they arent going to lose out because of a few new rules Nah, it's utter fearmongering. Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue. Equally, there will still be demand within Europe for our products (including food). My prediction was (and still is) that post Brexit, things won't change that much for the man on the street (except with change of government) "Nations to whom we are an important export market are not suddenly going to turn down the revenue" Ummmm.... you do realise that it will be *us* that puts the import duty on items, not them right? You understand that it will not be their problem exporting things, more like our problem importing them. They might all still want to sell us their goods, but when you and I either 1) can't buy them, because they we stuck in a lorry park awaiting inspection or 2) we decide that we'd rather not spend an extra 20% on the price of their cheese so don't buy it. -Matt Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. Actually, legally, we have to. Under WTO rules we would have to put tariffs on. Remember, those WTO rules that some brexiteers bang on about wanting to trade under. -Matt WE could if we wanted drop all tariffs on food or charge the same to all at a rate we set, that could well hit the eu hard" But not as hard as it would hit British producers. You've really got to stop looking for ways to hurt the EU and start concentrating on what's best for Britain if you want any sort of BREXIT to have any chance of working at all. | |||
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" Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. Defaulting to WTO rules mean applying WTO tariffs. For a lot of foodstuff, it is in the region of 30 % It is the most basic set of rules governing trade between different states. Withdraw from the WTO and the UK really is fucked. Utterly fucked. PANIC!
Believe the scaremongering if it suits you. European federalism and the ever tightening grip of multi-national capitalism needs people like you. "Or, put another way, you're saying "I've just been shown to be wrong on everything I've said about trade and tariffs. I can't win this one, I'll switch to the sovereignty and undemocratic argument" | |||
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" Yeah, and we are unliklely to put tariffs that either cause massive damage to our own export markets or will cause food riots. Defaulting to WTO rules mean applying WTO tariffs. For a lot of foodstuff, it is in the region of 30 % It is the most basic set of rules governing trade between different states. Withdraw from the WTO and the UK really is fucked. Utterly fucked. PANIC!
Believe the scaremongering if it suits you. European federalism and the ever tightening grip of multi-national capitalism needs people like you.
Or, put another way, you're saying "I've just been shown to be wrong on everything I've said about trade and tariffs. I can't win this one, I'll switch to the sovereignty and undemocratic argument"
"How on earth can I have been wrong about something that hasn't happened yet? It's all predictions made by people with agendas (on both sides of the debate). | |||
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" I spoke to some French friends yesterday and asked them how the view of brexit was from over there and they quite understandably said that nobody is particularly bothered because the rest of the eu will carry on regardless and there is very little that they need from the uk. So we are definitely not bargaining from a position of strength. Tbh they just think we are being suicidal and can’t understand why we are doing it. It’s just not logical." I can't understand why anyone could possibly think the UK is not in the weaker position. It's 27 countries against 1 for fucks sake. Does anyone really think. "they need us more than we need them"? | |||
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"Is strike action a crime? "A Labour MP has issued calls for the first general strike in more than 90 years in a bid to bring down the Conservative government." No, but trying to overthrow the Govt is." No it isn't. | |||
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"Whilst I think it's a silly idea put forward by a silly person, in law calling for a strike to pressurise the government is not treason. Treason is defined by the Treason Acts of 1351, 1702 and 1708 and the Treason Felony Act of 1848. There is nothing in any of the acts defining non violent coercion of the government as treason. I guess the dictionary disagrees... "Treason. ['tri?zn] NOUN. the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government."" Look up UK law. Yawn. | |||
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