Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Politics |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If u don't like the last result try again ...." No, see, that was not what this thread is about. So many leaver supports want to paint a second referendum as just an exact repeat of the first. What is being asked here (read it again) is what question should a second referendum ask? -Matt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I hear continual noise in the background about a second referendum. I've no strong feelings either way about that. But one thing that puzzles me is . . . a referendum on what? Is there a view on what questions hould be asked? The same as the one before, whether to accept or reject whatever Mrs May agrees with Mr Barnier. If it was rejected, the outcome would be what instead? Or is it a bit like the whole Brexit morass and no-one could agree on a question. I'd love to hear other people's views. " I guess it is hard to say, as no-one has yet come up with anything workable to ask a referendum on. I mean, if you asked me that a few months back, I probably would have said that they should have asked something along the lines of the various other country-models that were touted before: eg. - Remain in the EU as is - Move to a Norway model - Move to a Swiss model etc The problem with that is you then have to be more precise in how you define those models, and every single day a new piece of information comes up. E.g. the recent news about the electrical supply to Northern Ireland. I'd never even thought of that, I'd no idea how it could be impacted by the various models. But i guess for a start some explicit questioning of whether or not we stay in the EFTA would be a start. -Matt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Maybe naively simple but Accept deal. Accept no deal Stay in EU. I realise no deal is slightly ambiguous in what it means. May need the EU and Uk to agree eg WTO, planes, shared intelligence, 40bn etc. " I like this, simply because it would split the leave vote, making "stay in the EU" the winner. But I suspect despite being as thick as mince, Farage et al. might see it coming. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Maybe naively simple but Accept deal. Accept no deal Stay in EU. I realise no deal is slightly ambiguous in what it means. May need the EU and Uk to agree eg WTO, planes, shared intelligence, 40bn etc. I like this, simply because it would split the leave vote, making "stay in the EU" the winner. But I suspect despite being as thick as mince, Farage et al. might see it coming." Good point. Splitting the Brexit options ensures a remain result. But I remember people saying all leave votes was a no deal vote. So it should be a landslide for no deal I guess. Oh this reminds me of deal or no deal. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Maybe naively simple but Accept deal. Accept no deal Stay in EU. I realise no deal is slightly ambiguous in what it means. May need the EU and Uk to agree eg WTO, planes, shared intelligence, 40bn etc. I like this, simply because it would split the leave vote, making "stay in the EU" the winner. But I suspect despite being as thick as mince, Farage et al. might see it coming. Good point. Splitting the Brexit options ensures a remain result. But I remember people saying all leave votes was a no deal vote. So it should be a landslide for no deal I guess. Oh this reminds me of deal or no deal." This makes me question democracy. A party makes promises after promises to capture the majority of the voters, but only delivers a minority of the voters needs. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If u don't like the last result try again .... No, see, that was not what this thread is about. So many leaver supports want to paint a second referendum as just an exact repeat of the first. What is being asked here (read it again) is what question should a second referendum ask? -Matt" Do you know what's funny? How *terrified* brexiteers are of another referendum (whether it's to repeat the first or just on the type of deal). They know that the tide has turned somewhat (mainly because of all the things/information that has been emerging in the last couple of years after the referendum which was not immediately apparent and/or discussed in such great detail before the referendum) and the slim majority is more than likely to go the other way this time around. If they were fully confident that brexit would win *every* time (*especially* because of all the additional information that has come out in the last couple of years), they wouldn't get cold sweats even in the thought of another referendum. ------- Anyway, with regards to the OP's question(s), I cannot see how it would work. People voted all over the place when the question was a simple "yes" or "no". Many didn't bother researching what the EU was really about and instead voted based on emotion (which Farage and the like tapped successfully into). Imagine if they had to look into the detail of what any deal that Theresa proposes *actually* entails and how does that measure against what he had or what will a "no deal" mean in practice (assuming the options were "accept deal", "stay in EU" or "leave with no deal"). People will just not take the time to look into each option in detail and, again, they'll vote based on emotion which some ERG/Farage type characters will make sure to exploit again. So, if no referendum on the deal, who decides how we proceed? Fuck knows. Certainly not the government/parliament if their "performance" so far, is anything to go by. They'll paralyse the country for ages by attacking and bringing each other down, resulting in limbo. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I hear continual noise in the background about a second referendum. I've no strong feelings either way about that. But one thing that puzzles me is . . . a referendum on what? Is there a view on what questions hould be asked? The same as the one before, whether to accept or reject whatever Mrs May agrees with Mr Barnier. If it was rejected, the outcome would be what instead? Or is it a bit like the whole Brexit morass and no-one could agree on a question. I'd love to hear other people's views. " It won't happen what will be will be | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Maybe naively simple but Accept deal. Accept no deal Stay in EU. I realise no deal is slightly ambiguous in what it means. May need the EU and Uk to agree eg WTO, planes, shared intelligence, 40bn etc. I like this, simply because it would split the leave vote, making "stay in the EU" the winner. But I suspect despite being as thick as mince, Farage et al. might see it coming." One problem we cannot just remain in the eu | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Maybe naively simple but Accept deal. Accept no deal Stay in EU. I realise no deal is slightly ambiguous in what it means. May need the EU and Uk to agree eg WTO, planes, shared intelligence, 40bn etc. I like this, simply because it would split the leave vote, making "stay in the EU" the winner. But I suspect despite being as thick as mince, Farage et al. might see it coming. One problem we cannot just remain in the eu" I think there is legal ambiguity here. But I’m not a legal expert, this is second hand from those who are. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Maybe naively simple but Accept deal. Accept no deal Stay in EU. I realise no deal is slightly ambiguous in what it means. May need the EU and Uk to agree eg WTO, planes, shared intelligence, 40bn etc. I like this, simply because it would split the leave vote, making "stay in the EU" the winner. But I suspect despite being as thick as mince, Farage et al. might see it coming. One problem we cannot just remain in the eu I think there is legal ambiguity here. But I’m not a legal expert, this is second hand from those who are. " The eu dont want us to leave however they make no secret that they disliked the deal we have now, so if we go cap in hand sayinv ok we want back in they will say ok but you lose your veto and you need to join schenjen and the euro | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Maybe naively simple but Accept deal. Accept no deal Stay in EU. I realise no deal is slightly ambiguous in what it means. May need the EU and Uk to agree eg WTO, planes, shared intelligence, 40bn etc. I like this, simply because it would split the leave vote, making "stay in the EU" the winner. But I suspect despite being as thick as mince, Farage et al. might see it coming. Good point. Splitting the Brexit options ensures a remain result. But I remember people saying all leave votes was a no deal vote. So it should be a landslide for no deal I guess. Oh this reminds me of deal or no deal." so does that mean 22_referendums .remoaners; answers on a postage stamp welcomed | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I thought all the major political parties voted in favour of a referendum? They didn’t have to did they?" must admit I don’t recall. But didn’t the tories have a majority government. So it didn’t really matter either way ? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Normally, a referendum occurs when those in positions of power want to make a major constitutional change. You put that change in a manifesto, promise to put it to a referendum, and you get the chance if enough people vote you into office. Take the Scottish referendum. The Scottish nationalists get their mandate, they set out a vision of what it looks like in a White Paper and the people vote on it. The opposite happened in the UK referendum. The people who called it did NOT want a major change - they were playing party politics to stave off the threat from UKIP to the electoral chances of the Conservative Party. So there was no vision put forward, no White Paper, nothing. They were calling a referendum, not to obtain consent for a major change, but to endorse the status quo. History will judge that particular piece of thinking. The result went the other way and the country went down a rabbit hole, with absolutely nothing to guide us as to where we were going. Now people are discovering that their simple Yes/No choice masked a complex array of interdependencies that reach into almost every aspect of our lives. We voted for something akin to a transplant of the body's nervous system. The problem is no surgeon has ever performed that operation, the surgeons cannot even agree how to do it or the strength of the anaesthetic required, or even what to replace it with. Would you go into hospital for an operation for an untried procedure by a surgeon who keeps hearing other surgeons say she isn't up to performing the operation? That is where we are. The patient doesn't understand the nervous system and sees a parade of surgeons fighting among themselves to carry out the operation. It is a morass made in the Conservative Party. "  . I love an analogy (which works). Mine is we’ve decided we’re gluten free and want to remove the flour from the cake we’ve made with the EU. If we hadn’t agreed to make a cake, we could easily make a gluten free version. But now we’re in the mixing stage it’s more difficult. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Normally, a referendum occurs when those in positions of power want to make a major constitutional change. You put that change in a manifesto, promise to put it to a referendum, and you get the chance if enough people vote you into office. Take the Scottish referendum. The Scottish nationalists get their mandate, they set out a vision of what it looks like in a White Paper and the people vote on it. The opposite happened in the UK referendum. The people who called it did NOT want a major change - they were playing party politics to stave off the threat from UKIP to the electoral chances of the Conservative Party. So there was no vision put forward, no White Paper, nothing. They were calling a referendum, not to obtain consent for a major change, but to endorse the status quo. History will judge that particular piece of thinking. The result went the other way and the country went down a rabbit hole, with absolutely nothing to guide us as to where we were going. Now people are discovering that their simple Yes/No choice masked a complex array of interdependencies that reach into almost every aspect of our lives. We voted for something akin to a transplant of the body's nervous system. The problem is no surgeon has ever performed that operation, the surgeons cannot even agree how to do it or the strength of the anaesthetic required, or even what to replace it with. Would you go into hospital for an operation for an untried procedure by a surgeon who keeps hearing other surgeons say she isn't up to performing the operation? That is where we are. The patient doesn't understand the nervous system and sees a parade of surgeons fighting among themselves to carry out the operation. It is a morass made in the Conservative Party. . I love an analogy (which works). Mine is we’ve decided we’re gluten free and want to remove the flour from the cake we’ve made with the EU. If we hadn’t agreed to make a cake, we could easily make a gluten free version. But now we’re in the mixing stage it’s more difficult. "This is a good analogy which highlights one aspect that leavers seem to not understand (from what they say at least). There is a difference between 'not being in the EU' and 'leaving the EU'. We have spent several decades now streamliing our processes and using common frameworks and services, collaborating on change, etc. And now to leave we have to try and unpick all that. And no-one knows really where the end of that bit of yarn we've started pulling on will end up. Likely the entire thing will unravel in a mess. -Matt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I thought all the major political parties voted in favour of a referendum? They didn’t have to did they?" In recent times, pre-2016, all the parties except one were in favour of EU membership. The only party that advocated withdrawing from the EU was UKIP. UKIP was/is pretty much a single-issue party. I did not look at their manifesto for 2010 or 2015, but I imagine it probably argued for a referendum. The party had one MP briefly in Parliament. One MP. Yet it was able to deliver: a) a referendum b) a leave result. It's an astonishing result for a party with virtually no parliamentary representation in its history. How did it happen? Because it was eating into the Tory vote. Cameron could feel power drifting away, so he absorbed their idea into the 2015 manifesto. In other words, someone who wanted to stay in the EU thought he could stay in power by stealing the clothes of the party that wanted to leave the EU. A party with barely one MP. Perhaps the most stupid thing ever done by any PM I can remember. Think about it. That is why we have no vision or plan, because the party that actually wanted the referendum, the only one that wanted to leave the EU, was a million miles away from getting into power where it could have set out a plan for the voters. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I thought all the major political parties voted in favour of a referendum? They didn’t have to did they? In recent times, pre-2016, all the parties except one were in favour of EU membership. The only party that advocated withdrawing from the EU was UKIP. UKIP was/is pretty much a single-issue party. I did not look at their manifesto for 2010 or 2015, but I imagine it probably argued for a referendum. The party had one MP briefly in Parliament. One MP. Yet it was able to deliver: a) a referendum b) a leave result. It's an astonishing result for a party with virtually no parliamentary representation in its history. How did it happen? Because it was eating into the Tory vote. Cameron could feel power drifting away, so he absorbed their idea into the 2015 manifesto. In other words, someone who wanted to stay in the EU thought he could stay in power by stealing the clothes of the party that wanted to leave the EU. A party with barely one MP. Perhaps the most stupid thing ever done by any PM I can remember. Think about it. That is why we have no vision or plan, because the party that actually wanted the referendum, the only one that wanted to leave the EU, was a million miles away from getting into power where it could have set out a plan for the voters. " i would day their power came from their MEPs and the size they were growing there. That plus their proportional representation. A better focused organisation who knew how to target the right voters in the right seats could have caused issues to the main parties. This is probably where the true irony lies. It was the *unelected* MEPs in the *undemocratic* EU which drove the change. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I i would day their power came from their MEPs and the size they were growing there. That plus their proportional representation. A better focused organisation who knew how to target the right voters in the right seats could have caused issues to the main parties. This is probably where the true irony lies. It was the *unelected* MEPs in the *undemocratic* EU which drove the change. " I'm sure that's true. When I set to one side my own views and try to look at this dispassionately, UKIP's achievement must rank as one of the most extraordinary achievements in the history of modern politics. I can think of no other campaign that has achieved such a monumental change of direction. (Sorry, I'm laid up at home with an injured back and little else to do to relieve the boredom except prattle on in here  )
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"MEPs are elected." True. Albeit on abysmal turn-outs. But MEPs had no power to call a referendum. That power lay in Westminster. And UKIP's power base there was virtually nil. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"MEPs are elected." strictly speaking their party is elected. But semantics. I was playing to the audiance who (some at least) offer this opinion on MEPs when it suits... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"MEPs are elected.strictly speaking their party is elected. But semantics. I was playing to the audiance who (some at least) offer this opinion on MEPs when it suits..." Not always though, it's up to every country how they do it, I'd forgotten that most countries use the list system. I'm used to a straight up vote with STV, as is good and proper. But we're well into the s now. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The fact remains that most politicians and bigwigs thought the referendum was a forgone conclusion that we would remain in the EU . The people in the real world voted leave .weve had 40 years of hurt in that circus .Britain's coming home and not before time .the likes of Major ,Blair and Cameron sold our soul bit by bit its time to reclaim it now . I don't need any two bit EU slap head telling me my cucumbers not the right shape . the EU belongs in the dead parrot sketch from Monty python . people can bleat all they like .but one way or another we are coming out. .we don't need any more referendums. " "40 years of hurt"?! My god, could you be any more melodramatic? Was it perfect? No far from it. Are there thing that could do with some change, yes of course. But it *was* an economic and social benefit to our country overall. -Matt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"we don't need any more referendums. " Because the one thing brexiteers are deathly afraid of is having their precious brexit taken away from them. For all the chattering about how they're all about democracy and all that, they're petrified of it now. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I thought all the major political parties voted in favour of a referendum? They didn’t have to did they?must admit I don’t recall. But didn’t the tories have a majority government. So it didn’t really matter either way ?" From memory I think it was 6 MP's to every 1 MP who voted in favour of having the EU referendum in Parliament across all parties. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The fact remains that most politicians and bigwigs thought the referendum was a forgone conclusion that we would remain in the EU . The people in the real world voted leave .weve had 40 years of hurt in that circus .Britain's coming home and not before time .the likes of Major ,Blair and Cameron sold our soul bit by bit its time to reclaim it now . I don't need any two bit EU slap head telling me my cucumbers not the right shape . the EU belongs in the dead parrot sketch from Monty python . people can bleat all they like .but one way or another we are coming out. .we don't need any more referendums. " Ah, you are confusing cucumbers with bananas. A shocking piece of fake news fabricated by Boris Johnson when he was the Brussels correspondent of the Daily Telegraph. You forget Mrs Thatcher in your list of hate figures. Mrs T signed up Britain to the single market, with its four freedoms. She thought it was great. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"we don't need any more referendums. Because the one thing brexiteers are deathly afraid of is having their precious brexit taken away from them. For all the chattering about how they're all about democracy and all that, they're petrified of it now." A little bit like people not accepting the result last time ? What’s it to be ? The best of 3 ? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"we don't need any more referendums. Because the one thing brexiteers are deathly afraid of is having their precious brexit taken away from them. For all the chattering about how they're all about democracy and all that, they're petrified of it now. A little bit like people not accepting the result last time ? What’s it to be ? The best of 3 ? " Sure. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"we don't need any more referendums. Because the one thing brexiteers are deathly afraid of is having their precious brexit taken away from them. For all the chattering about how they're all about democracy and all that, they're petrified of it now. A little bit like people not accepting the result last time ? What’s it to be ? The best of 3 ? Sure." makes sense. There’s been 3 and it’s 1 each atm. 
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"we don't need any more referendums. Because the one thing brexiteers are deathly afraid of is having their precious brexit taken away from them. For all the chattering about how they're all about democracy and all that, they're petrified of it now. A little bit like people not accepting the result last time ? What’s it to be ? The best of 3 ? Sure.makes sense. There’s been 3 and it’s 1 each atm.
"Maybe that's why parts of England are so against this. 2-1 is a scoreline they'd rather not see again for quite some time. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Maybe naively simple but Accept deal. Accept no deal Stay in EU. I realise no deal is slightly ambiguous in what it means. May need the EU and Uk to agree eg WTO, planes, shared intelligence, 40bn etc. I like this, simply because it would split the leave vote, making "stay in the EU" the winner. But I suspect despite being as thick as mince, Farage et al. might see it coming. One problem we cannot just remain in the eu I think there is legal ambiguity here. But I’m not a legal expert, this is second hand from those who are. The eu dont want us to leave however they make no secret that they disliked the deal we have now, so if we go cap in hand sayinv ok we want back in they will say ok but you lose your veto and you need to join schenjen and the euro" If we change our minds before we leave then they won't be able to stop us. They can't force us out, we have to leave. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There can be no option to Remain, the country already made its decision to Leave. If another referendum is called it will have to be to accept the deal done by Theresa May or leave with No Deal and go to WTO rules. " One day you'll wake up and realise that good politics is the politics of the possible, not the fanciful. If the deal is good enough parliament will accept the deal and there will be no need for a referendum. Once the deal is regretted it's not on the table anymore so can't be the subject of a referendum. The only choices left will be leave with no deal or remain. So far you have been wrong on every legal point to do with BREXIT and the construction (just to remind you, I told you what the ruling would be on Article 50 and devolved assemblies/parliaments, and I told you what "regularty allinmemt' actually meant). You're wrong on this too. Maybe you should stop basing your statements on how you want things to be and start basing them on how things really are. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The fact remains that most politicians and bigwigs thought the referendum was a forgone conclusion that we would remain in the EU . The people in the real world voted leave .weve had 40 years of hurt in that circus .Britain's coming home and not before time .the likes of Major ,Blair and Cameron sold our soul bit by bit its time to reclaim it now . I don't need any two bit EU slap head telling me my cucumbers not the right shape . the EU belongs in the dead parrot sketch from Monty python . people can bleat all they like .but one way or another we are coming out. .we don't need any more referendums. Ah, you are confusing cucumbers with bananas. A shocking piece of fake news fabricated by Boris Johnson when he was the Brussels correspondent of the Daily Telegraph. You forget Mrs Thatcher in your list of hate figures. Mrs T signed up Britain to the single market, with its four freedoms. She thought it was great." No she didn’t. I think you will find that was John the dick Major | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"To get back on track I think if there were a second referendum it should be one of the two following formats: 1.) Do you accept the current proposed arrangement between the UK and EU - in the event of a majority NO VOTE, the UK will leave the UK without an arrangement. 2.) Which arrangement do you see as most beneficial to the future of the United Kingdom? a.) The proposed arrangement (whatever it is this time round) between the UK and EU b.) Full sovereignty - default onto WTO tariffs until free trade treaties are arranged between trade blocks and Nations with the UK. c.) Default. (Reject the proposals and keep the UK within the EU under it's pre-2016 arrangement.)" Someone in government who knows what they are doing. It's far too complex than just a "yes" or "no" - as the last one! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" No she didn’t. I think you will find that was John the dick Major " You're right, I was wrong. The Maastricht Treaty. I'm going to scratch my head now trying to think of what it was Mrs T endorsed so enthusiastically. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I love how your remainers paint a rosie picture of the EU You should look at it from our side of the fence (inside the EU) Countries in the South are suffering economically with mass unemployment and have done since the introduction of the Euro - Countries in the East are in revolt with the EU The whole EU project is in disarray and in steady decline, lead by an aging alcoholic and a German leader about to be overthrown for incompetence And you guys want a second referendum to re-join!! Ha ha!!! " Not all people who voted remain see the EU as being perfect. But better than the unpicking ourselves out of it. As a (I assume) Southern European I’d be interested in your thoughts as to how much the current suffering is from 1) being in the euro 2) being in the EU and 3) from historical and structural reasons which may have played out regardless. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" No she didn’t. I think you will find that was John the dick Major You're right, I was wrong. The Maastricht Treaty. I'm going to scratch my head now trying to think of what it was Mrs T endorsed so enthusiastically." I apologise I was wrong, she was keen on a single market and signed us up to the SEA but by the end of the 80’s she was against the direction in which it was heading because of majority voting which could have negative consequences for the UK and more integrative measures which would lead to the Maastricht Treaty. So she was for it then against it | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
lovely change from the petty squabbling on other threads. Hats off to you both (also kudos to Ben for going and doing extra research when he was right on his original point) | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I love how your remainers paint a rosie picture of the EU You should look at it from our side of the fence (inside the EU) Countries in the South are suffering economically with mass unemployment and have done since the introduction of the Euro - Countries in the East are in revolt with the EU The whole EU project is in disarray and in steady decline, lead by an aging alcoholic and a German leader about to be overthrown for incompetence And you guys want a second referendum to re-join!! Ha ha!!! " Think you have a warped outlook on the EU. Firstly the EU is far from perfect and does need reform, as does all the older institutions. They were fine when set up, but desperately need modernisation - NATO, NHS, WTO & U.N. to name just a few. The countries doing well in the EU are the northern Europeans, the southern countries aren't doing as well because of various factors - automation being one of them. Germany do well because they make high value things and sell them around the world. Olive oil countries have to sell a lot and even then it doesn't earn enough. I see a different Europe to you as I live in France but in general life is good! The east well they are catching up Romania is growing at 6%! Yes you have Poland & Hungary who are "renegades" - but happy to take the money. The "crisis" is about migration in Europe. You have Africans and middle eastern people flooding Europe - a little like after the war but none of us were alive then to know what it was like. The last time we had a right wing revolution we ended up with a world war - maybe it's time for another to focus people's minds? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A German leader about to be overthrown for incompetence " You're not the first man to confidently predict the demise of Frau Merkel, and you won't be the last. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I love how your remainers paint a rosie picture of the EU You should look at it from our side of the fence (inside the EU) Countries in the South are suffering economically with mass unemployment and have done since the introduction of the Euro - Countries in the East are in revolt with the EU The whole EU project is in disarray and in steady decline, lead by an aging alcoholic and a German leader about to be overthrown for incompetence And you guys want a second referendum to re-join!! Ha ha!!! Think you have a warped outlook on the EU. Firstly the EU is far from perfect and does need reform, as does all the older institutions. They were fine when set up, but desperately need modernisation - NATO, NHS, WTO & U.N. to name just a few. The countries doing well in the EU are the northern Europeans, the southern countries aren't doing as well because of various factors - automation being one of them. Germany do well because they make high value things and sell them around the world. Olive oil countries have to sell a lot and even then it doesn't earn enough. I see a different Europe to you as I live in France but in general life is good! The east well they are catching up Romania is growing at 6%! Yes you have Poland & Hungary who are "renegades" - but happy to take the money. The "crisis" is about migration in Europe. You have Africans and middle eastern people flooding Europe - a little like after the war but none of us were alive then to know what it was like. The last time we had a right wing revolution we ended up with a world war - maybe it's time for another to focus people's minds?" If I recall correctly - things didn't exactly go swimmingly after the last left wing revolution either Either way - extreme politics left or right is the result of a failed system - The steady shift to the right within the EU indicates the failure of the EU project If you think I have a warped view because I dare suggest it's in decline, I can only assume you think it's in ascendency? Next year when the UK leaves with a no deal, as it surely will - The EU will lose 12% of its income - Add to this the plethora of exisiting problems facing the EU along with D Trump's tariffs and it's clearly heading in one direction The EU itself needs a revolution, if it's ever to reform and survive and a recognition of its own failures and shortcomings - it also needs strong and accountable leadership - unfortunately it can muster neither | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A German leader about to be overthrown for incompetence You're not the first man to confidently predict the demise of Frau Merkel, and you won't be the last." Yep, everybody agrees with me on that one it seems | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A German leader about to be overthrown for incompetence You're not the first man to confidently predict the demise of Frau Merkel, and you won't be the last. Yep, everybody agrees with me on that one it seems " I think that rather went over your head. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There should not be another referendum, end of. What we need is a group of politicians with the willingness and the bottle to take us out of the EU with no stupid deal. They won’t give us a good one, so let’s break free with none. The EU are a hateful bunch of money and power grabbing bastards. Let’s make a clean break and then give them the middle finger as their evil house of cards collapses... " One obvious benefit of your approach is that we'll have no-one to blame - not the EU, no-one - except you and your wrecking gang when the country seizes up with rigour mortis. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A German leader about to be overthrown for incompetence You're not the first man to confidently predict the demise of Frau Merkel, and you won't be the last. Yep, everybody agrees with me on that one it seems I think that rather went over your head." That's what you thought | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There should not be another referendum, end of. What we need is a group of politicians with the willingness and the bottle to take us out of the EU with no stupid deal. They won’t give us a good one, so let’s break free with none. The EU are a hateful bunch of money and power grabbing bastards. Let’s make a clean break and then give them the middle finger as their evil house of cards collapses... One obvious benefit of your approach is that we'll have no-one to blame - not the EU, no-one - except you and your wrecking gang when the country seizes up with rigour mortis. " Oh dear, is that all you’ve got? Firstly I am in no gang whatsoever, and as old as I am I’m a long way off rigour mortis. This country is seizing up because of lack of leadership. We have nobody in mainstream politics who is capable of taking this nation forward. Our best bet would be Nigel Farage, but one cannot blame him for his reluctance to step forward. As for your crusty old maggot Corbyn, he is not the future, unless you are talking about worm food. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Would that be stood seven times and never got elected to Westminster Farage? Or was it only six, after a while the failures just sort of blur together..." Indeed, and as the pinkos continue to get their way, the masses continue towards the abyss like so many lemmings... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Walk away or accept their deal. So simple but we did it once and i voted to walk away or leave (call it what you want) but i knew what I voted for. Start fresh. Am not interested in the arguments and that is my awnser to the question asked. "Fair enough, but I ask, why after winning a referendum would anyone expect us to follow those who opposed it of the edge of a cliff? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There should not be another referendum, end of. What we need is a group of politicians with the willingness and the bottle to take us out of the EU with no stupid deal. They won’t give us a good one, so let’s break free with none. The EU are a hateful bunch of money and power grabbing bastards. Let’s make a clean break and then give them the middle finger as their evil house of cards collapses... One obvious benefit of your approach is that we'll have no-one to blame - not the EU, no-one - except you and your wrecking gang when the country seizes up with rigour mortis. Oh dear, is that all you’ve got? Firstly I am in no gang whatsoever, and as old as I am I’m a long way off rigour mortis. This country is seizing up because of lack of leadership. We have nobody in mainstream politics who is capable of taking this nation forward. Our best bet would be Nigel Farage, but one cannot blame him for his reluctance to step forward. As for your crusty old maggot Corbyn, he is not the future, unless you are talking about worm food." Indeed! We've got no-one with the guts to just run us straight off the top of the cliff full steam without any concern for the resultant complete wreck we'll be as we crash into the rocks below. Yes, no-one can blame Farage for not stepping forward... having successfully managed to not be elected 7 times as an MP now, it would really make him look pretty fucking dire if he got turned down on the 8th attempt too. -Matt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Would that be stood seven times and never got elected to Westminster Farage? Or was it only six, after a while the failures just sort of blur together... Indeed, and as the pinkos continue to get their way, the masses continue towards the abyss like so many lemmings..." much like the lemmings who leapt to join the bloody circus in the first place .we were conned back then im afraid its payback time .learn to deal with it and stop the bleating .respect the referendum result . if it had gone the other I wouldn't have gone like the sore losers do now .by the way guys they are re running the world cup again till England win it . some of you weren't happy with the first run . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Walk away or accept their deal. So simple but we did it once and i voted to walk away or leave (call it what you want) but i knew what I voted for. Start fresh. Am not interested in the arguments and that is my awnser to the question asked. "So, considering you wanted to start afresh, I presume you have been out protesting the government the past two years at their lack of progress on getting everything ready for us to leave? -Matt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Would that be stood seven times and never got elected to Westminster Farage? Or was it only six, after a while the failures just sort of blur together... Indeed, and as the pinkos continue to get their way, the masses continue towards the abyss like so many lemmings...much like the lemmings who leapt to join the bloody circus in the first place .we were conned back then im afraid its payback time .learn to deal with it and stop the bleating .respect the referendum result . if it had gone the other I wouldn't have gone like the sore losers do now .by the way guys they are re running the world cup again till England win it . some of you weren't happy with the first run . " I sometimes wonder which side you are trying to argue for in this. You say that you were conned and then use an example of re-running the world cup, after a bunch of England supporters are trying to get the match investigated due to a bad call with the ref. Oh and claim that if it had gone the other way, wouldn't be sore losers, after UKIP have spent the last couple of decades doing exactly that. Surely if you are a leave supporter you should use arguments to support your argument, not undermine it? -Matt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Would that be stood seven times and never got elected to Westminster Farage? Or was it only six, after a while the failures just sort of blur together... Indeed, and as the pinkos continue to get their way, the masses continue towards the abyss like so many lemmings..." Lemmings don't actually run off cliffs. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Would that be stood seven times and never got elected to Westminster Farage? Or was it only six, after a while the failures just sort of blur together... Indeed, and as the pinkos continue to get their way, the masses continue towards the abyss like so many lemmings...much like the lemmings who leapt to join the bloody circus in the first place .we were conned back then im afraid its payback time .learn to deal with it and stop the bleating .respect the referendum result . if it had gone the other I wouldn't have gone like the sore losers do now .by the way guys they are re running the world cup again till England win it . some of you weren't happy with the first run . " FYI I’m a leaver not a remoaner, youseem to be quoting my post with the one before. As for England they are a young team doing ok. The future will see them mature into world beaters, as long as they are not all burnt out by the time they are 26. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Would that be stood seven times and never got elected to Westminster Farage? Or was it only six, after a while the failures just sort of blur together... Indeed, and as the pinkos continue to get their way, the masses continue towards the abyss like so many lemmings... Lemmings don't actually run off cliffs." No, they just walk over the edge, bore off with your petty semantics.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Would that be stood seven times and never got elected to Westminster Farage? Or was it only six, after a while the failures just sort of blur together... Indeed, and as the pinkos continue to get their way, the masses continue towards the abyss like so many lemmings... Lemmings don't actually run off cliffs. No, they just walk over the edge, bore off with your petty semantics.." They don't do that either. Much like the need for brexit, it's all an entertaining lie for the gullible. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I guess it’s a waste of time, and also bloody pointless, telling a wanker to go fuck himself." Wasted on him mate, he loves the attention, he wouldn't get any otherwise! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I guess it’s a waste of time, and also bloody pointless, telling a wanker to go fuck himself. Wasted on him mate, he loves the attention, he wouldn't get any otherwise!" The internet must have been a blessing for loaners and the Walter Mitty types. Lol | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I guess it’s a waste of time, and also bloody pointless, telling a wanker to go fuck himself. Wasted on him mate, he loves the attention, he wouldn't get any otherwise! The internet must have been a blessing for loaners and the Walter Mitty types. Lol" Nothing is quite so clueless as bitching about the internet being a haven for "loaners and the Walter Mitty types" on the internet. Good self awareness there.... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I guess it’s a waste of time, and also bloody pointless, telling a wanker to go fuck himself. Wasted on him mate, he loves the attention, he wouldn't get any otherwise! The internet must have been a blessing for loaners and the Walter Mitty types. Lol Nothing is quite so clueless as bitching about the internet being a haven for "loaners and the Walter Mitty types" on the internet. Good self awareness there...." If only we were not aware of you! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Would that be stood seven times and never got elected to Westminster Farage? Or was it only six, after a while the failures just sort of blur together... Indeed, and as the pinkos continue to get their way, the masses continue towards the abyss like so many lemmings...much like the lemmings who leapt to join the bloody circus in the first place .we were conned back then im afraid its payback time .learn to deal with it and stop the bleating .respect the referendum result . if it had gone the other I wouldn't have gone like the sore losers do now .by the way guys they are re running the world cup again till England win it . some of you weren't happy with the first run . FYI I’m a leaver not a remoaner, youseem to be quoting my post with the one before. As for England they are a young team doing ok. The future will see them mature into world beaters, as long as they are not all burnt out by the time they are 26. " You’re confusing a competition with a democracy. It’s not that the last vote gave the wrong answer but things have changed, so there is an argument another vote, perhaps a slightly different worded vote, is the right thing to do. Or to abuse your analogy, a one and done competition would be like saying whoever wins out of Croatia and France are champions forever. Don’t come back England when you’re 26 and world beaters. You had your chance. You lost. Get over it. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The fact remains that most politicians and bigwigs thought the referendum was a forgone conclusion that we would remain in the EU . The people in the real world voted leave .weve had 40 years of hurt in that circus .Britain's coming home and not before time .the likes of Major ,Blair and Cameron sold our soul bit by bit its time to reclaim it now . I don't need any two bit EU slap head telling me my cucumbers not the right shape . the EU belongs in the dead parrot sketch from Monty python . people can bleat all they like .but one way or another we are coming out. .we don't need any more referendums. Ah, you are confusing cucumbers with bananas. A shocking piece of fake news fabricated by Boris Johnson when he was the Brussels correspondent of the Daily Telegraph. You forget Mrs Thatcher in your list of hate figures. Mrs T signed up Britain to the single market, with its four freedoms. She thought it was great. No she didn’t. I think you will find that was John the dick Major " I think you'll find it was Mrs T in her Lancaster House speach in 1988 Here's the link https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219 n | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" No she didn’t. I think you will find that was John the dick Major You're right, I was wrong. The Maastricht Treaty. I'm going to scratch my head now trying to think of what it was Mrs T endorsed so enthusiastically." No you weren't incorrect, it was Margret Thatcher who proposed the Single Market and campaigned for it. https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I guess it’s a waste of time, and also bloody pointless, telling a wanker to go fuck himself." Maybe you already know that. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" No she didn’t. I think you will find that was John the dick Major You're right, I was wrong. The Maastricht Treaty. I'm going to scratch my head now trying to think of what it was Mrs T endorsed so enthusiastically. No you weren't incorrect, it was Margret Thatcher who proposed the Single Market and campaigned for it. https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219" Quite correct she was the "architect ". Also it was Winston Churchill who proposed the EU! Two great leaders - what were they thinking? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
