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"All I can find are newspaper sources for the numbers attending - but none from Police Scotland. Are there any? The pictures show a sea of Saltires. It was in Scotland. There was no wish by the organisers to limit where the people came from but stands to reason the vast majority were from the UK. My point is about journalism, reporting and what would be made of an equivalent number marching in England- is there even enough consensus in England to march about ANYTHING? " Anything? You can't think of anything? This list might jog your memory... https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/28/demonstrations-protests-uk-list | |||
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"All I can find are newspaper sources for the numbers attending - but none from Police Scotland. Are there any? The pictures show a sea of Saltires. It was in Scotland. There was no wish by the organisers to limit where the people came from but stands to reason the vast majority were from the UK. My point is about journalism, reporting and what would be made of an equivalent number marching in England- is there even enough consensus in England to march about ANYTHING? Anything? You can't think of anything? This list might jog your memory... https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/28/demonstrations-protests-uk-list " ....that 350,000 people would March to support? | |||
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"All I can find are newspaper sources for the numbers attending - but none from Police Scotland. Are there any? The pictures show a sea of Saltires. It was in Scotland. There was no wish by the organisers to limit where the people came from but stands to reason the vast majority were from the UK. My point is about journalism, reporting and what would be made of an equivalent number marching in England- is there even enough consensus in England to march about ANYTHING? Anything? You can't think of anything? This list might jog your memory... https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/28/demonstrations-protests-uk-list ....that 350,000 people would March to support?" Stop the War had either 750,000 or 2,000,000 in London in 2003. Same march in Glasgow had 50,000 or 100,000. Maybe what really counts is the number that didn't march? | |||
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"Is it 35k or 350k ? 35k is just a mid sized prem teams crowd ..." Sorry, I wasn't clear. There are about 10x as many people in England so a march in Scotland regarding Scottish matters of 35k, is equivalent to a march about English matters in England of 350k | |||
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"If UKIP had lost the 2016, how many would march through London demanding another vote?" Not sure they'd march. They'd probably murder a few more liberal MPs .Mostly women and ethnic minorities.Such is their way. | |||
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"Usually, once one figure is quoted in a newspaper, the others copy it. That doesn't make it correct, or wrong, just not proven, which is my point. The other marches mentioned weren't about English matters. Are there any specific English matters 350000 people would march for? It would be good if the answer was 'no' tbh- that's a lot of disenfranchised. " Why does it have to be a specific English matter? Now I've produced some examples you're moving the goalposts! Looking at the figures it seems more Scots marched against the war in Iraq than they did for a pro- independence rally. And proportionally more people marched in London than Glasgow. | |||
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"Usually, once one figure is quoted in a newspaper, the others copy it. That doesn't make it correct, or wrong, just not proven, which is my point. The other marches mentioned weren't about English matters. Are there any specific English matters 350000 people would march for? It would be good if the answer was 'no' tbh- that's a lot of disenfranchised. Why does it have to be a specific English matter? Now I've produced some examples you're moving the goalposts! Looking at the figures it seems more Scots marched against the war in Iraq than they did for a pro- independence rally. And proportionally more people marched in London than Glasgow." And as mentioned, not all of the people were marching for Scottish independence, many were marching under a Catalan banner. | |||
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"Sadly, you are so obsessed with the independence issue that you are not understanding what I was posting. It's actually nothing to do with Nationalism per se, but to do with media reporting. It doesn't matter who/what/why they were marching, it's the number and where that number came from. Do you actually trust media? As far as I can see from this distance, the initial police estimate was very much higher but there is no online information to confirm whether the 35k that was mentioned is correct or not, or indeed, actually DID come from the police. I actually don't care how many were on the march but the gullibility of public regarding 'information' they read in newspapers is worrying. The point of the rally was to do with Scottish matters, hence the flippant reference to something similar in England. None of the examples given are comparable. " So why the Catalan banners then? | |||
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"Sadly, you are so obsessed with the independence issue that you are not understanding what I was posting. It's actually nothing to do with Nationalism per se, but to do with media reporting. It doesn't matter who/what/why they were marching, it's the number and where that number came from. Do you actually trust media? As far as I can see from this distance, the initial police estimate was very much higher but there is no online information to confirm whether the 35k that was mentioned is correct or not, or indeed, actually DID come from the police. I actually don't care how many were on the march but the gullibility of public regarding 'information' they read in newspapers is worrying. The point of the rally was to do with Scottish matters, hence the flippant reference to something similar in England. None of the examples given are comparable. " For someone who supposedly isn't that interested in the independence issue, despite posting a fair bit on it, it seems pretty strange that you'd choose such a minor issue to complain about supposed media bias and lies. The media reports police claims of 35,000 there and the organisers claim a hugely inflated number. That's the same for pretty much every protest march, the organisers and those in attendance always claim inflated figures. | |||
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"Sadly, you are so obsessed with the independence issue that you are not understanding what I was posting. It's actually nothing to do with Nationalism per se, but to do with media reporting. It doesn't matter who/what/why they were marching, it's the number and where that number came from. Do you actually trust media? As far as I can see from this distance, the initial police estimate was very much higher but there is no online information to confirm whether the 35k that was mentioned is correct or not, or indeed, actually DID come from the police. I actually don't care how many were on the march but the gullibility of public regarding 'information' they read in newspapers is worrying. The point of the rally was to do with Scottish matters, hence the flippant reference to something similar in England. None of the examples given are comparable. So why the Catalan banners then?" You should ask about the lerge banner from the fascist organisation they were marching behind.  | |||
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"Sadly, you are so obsessed with the independence issue that you are not understanding what I was posting. It's actually nothing to do with Nationalism per se, but to do with media reporting. It doesn't matter who/what/why they were marching, it's the number and where that number came from. Do you actually trust media? As far as I can see from this distance, the initial police estimate was very much higher but there is no online information to confirm whether the 35k that was mentioned is correct or not, or indeed, actually DID come from the police. I actually don't care how many were on the march but the gullibility of public regarding 'information' they read in newspapers is worrying. The point of the rally was to do with Scottish matters, hence the flippant reference to something similar in England. None of the examples given are comparable. For someone who supposedly isn't that interested in the independence issue, despite posting a fair bit on it, it seems pretty strange that you'd choose such a minor issue to complain about supposed media bias and lies. The media reports police claims of 35,000 there and the organisers claim a hugely inflated number. That's the same for pretty much every protest march, the organisers and those in attendance always claim inflated figures." I'm sorry, but the relevance of it passed you by. As far as the numbers go,the initial reports (NOT from the organisers), said the police estimated 50k but the papers said 35k.....so 35k it seems to be. Because the newspapers said so.THAT'S the point. Doesn't matter who's marching, numbers never tally but just pause to think about what you take as gospel. | |||
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"Sadly, you are so obsessed with the independence issue that you are not understanding what I was posting. It's actually nothing to do with Nationalism per se, but to do with media reporting. It doesn't matter who/what/why they were marching, it's the number and where that number came from. Do you actually trust media? As far as I can see from this distance, the initial police estimate was very much higher but there is no online information to confirm whether the 35k that was mentioned is correct or not, or indeed, actually DID come from the police. I actually don't care how many were on the march but the gullibility of public regarding 'information' they read in newspapers is worrying. The point of the rally was to do with Scottish matters, hence the flippant reference to something similar in England. None of the examples given are comparable. For someone who supposedly isn't that interested in the independence issue, despite posting a fair bit on it, it seems pretty strange that you'd choose such a minor issue to complain about supposed media bias and lies. The media reports police claims of 35,000 there and the organisers claim a hugely inflated number. That's the same for pretty much every protest march, the organisers and those in attendance always claim inflated figures. I'm sorry, but the relevance of it passed you by. As far as the numbers go,the initial reports (NOT from the organisers), said the police estimated 50k but the papers said 35k.....so 35k it seems to be. Because the newspapers said so.THAT'S the point. Doesn't matter who's marching, numbers never tally but just pause to think about what you take as gospel." The relevance isn't passing me by, it's just that it's pointless. In a world with so much going on you're getting worked up that papers have reported 35k at a march instead of 50k (I've seen number as low as 20k and think they may be more accurate). It seems an incredible thing to be using as some sort of example of press lies, but then again nationalism does seem to do funny things to people. | |||
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" It doesn't matter who/what/why they were marching, it's the number and where that number came from. Do you actually trust media? As far as I can see from this distance, the initial police estimate was very much higher but there is no online information to confirm whether the 35k that was mentioned is correct or not, or indeed, actually DID come from the police. I actually don't care how many were on the march but the gullibility of public regarding 'information' they read in newspapers is worrying." I'm quoting this earlier post as I'm about to put the whole thing to bed: "A Police Scotland spokeswoman told the Evening Times the number has been estimated to be at around 35,000. She also added no arrests were made." | |||
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"They weren't marching under a Catalan banner. They were all marching for Scottish independence, but showing solidarity and support for the Catalan people and their fight following the brutal repression shown by the Spanish state and police. It doesn't diminish the argument of the march to show support for others too." The stated purpose of the march, was to march under a single banner. They failed in that purpose, there were many people marching under a Catalan banner. | |||
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"They weren't marching under a Catalan banner. They were all marching for Scottish independence, but showing solidarity and support for the Catalan people and their fight following the brutal repression shown by the Spanish state and police. It doesn't diminish the argument of the march to show support for others too. The stated purpose of the march, was to march under a single banner. They failed in that purpose, there were many people marching under a Catalan banner. " But how does it diminish their aims? Surely to bring together the independence fights helps show solidarity. I thought you were in favour of more internationalism? | |||
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" I'm quoting this earlier post as I'm about to put the whole thing to bed: "A Police Scotland spokeswoman told the Evening Times the number has been estimated to be at around 35,000. She also added no arrests were made." " Except.....initial police estimates were much, much more. Maybe the extra weren't on the march, just going along to watch. Whatever, we weren't there, there isn't an official statement from PS- they have better things to do- but it still stands that actual unknowns become 'facts' so easily, because we don't think independently..or because we wish to believe them as it suits our beliefs. That it is a nationalist march is highly relevant to the point, from past reporting history from the BBC. I could have picked a story about Raqqa and how the US has dropped more bombs/armaments in five months on one city than it did in Afghanistan in the whole of 2017 and the lack of reporting about the resulting wave of death and refugees that somehow are not acceptable to western countries....but that's a lot more complicated. We read in our chosen newspaper. We believe. We act accordingly. We are wrong. There's nothing at all unimportant about challenging numbers if the original sources do not exist. Just question, is all I'd ask. | |||
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"They weren't marching under a Catalan banner. They were all marching for Scottish independence, but showing solidarity and support for the Catalan people and their fight following the brutal repression shown by the Spanish state and police. It doesn't diminish the argument of the march to show support for others too. The stated purpose of the march, was to march under a single banner. They failed in that purpose, there were many people marching under a Catalan banner. But how does it diminish their aims? Surely to bring together the independence fights helps show solidarity. I thought you were in favour of more internationalism?" The march was organised by "All Under One Banner", that's their raison d'etre, yet they weren't all marching under one banner! | |||
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"They weren't marching under a Catalan banner. They were all marching for Scottish independence, but showing solidarity and support for the Catalan people and their fight following the brutal repression shown by the Spanish state and police. It doesn't diminish the argument of the march to show support for others too. The stated purpose of the march, was to march under a single banner. They failed in that purpose, there were many people marching under a Catalan banner. But how does it diminish their aims? Surely to bring together the independence fights helps show solidarity. I thought you were in favour of more internationalism? The march was organised by "All Under One Banner", that's their raison d'etre, yet they weren't all marching under one banner! " What does it have to do with you? You seem more interested in what goes in Scotland than you do about your own country lol | |||
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"They weren't marching under a Catalan banner. They were all marching for Scottish independence, but showing solidarity and support for the Catalan people and their fight following the brutal repression shown by the Spanish state and police. It doesn't diminish the argument of the march to show support for others too. The stated purpose of the march, was to march under a single banner. They failed in that purpose, there were many people marching under a Catalan banner. But how does it diminish their aims? Surely to bring together the independence fights helps show solidarity. I thought you were in favour of more internationalism? The march was organised by "All Under One Banner", that's their raison d'etre, yet they weren't all marching under one banner! What does it have to do with you? You seem more interested in what goes in Scotland than you do about your own country lol" It probably has a bit more to do with the poster than Catalan independence does with Scottish Nationalists. | |||
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"They weren't marching under a Catalan banner. They were all marching for Scottish independence, but showing solidarity and support for the Catalan people and their fight following the brutal repression shown by the Spanish state and police. It doesn't diminish the argument of the march to show support for others too. The stated purpose of the march, was to march under a single banner. They failed in that purpose, there were many people marching under a Catalan banner. But how does it diminish their aims? Surely to bring together the independence fights helps show solidarity. I thought you were in favour of more internationalism? The march was organised by "All Under One Banner", that's their raison d'etre, yet they weren't all marching under one banner! What does it have to do with you? You seem more interested in what goes in Scotland than you do about your own country lol It probably has a bit more to do with the poster than Catalan independence does with Scottish Nationalists." 
My country is the UK, and Scotland is part of the UK. | |||
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" I'm quoting this earlier post as I'm about to put the whole thing to bed: "A Police Scotland spokeswoman told the Evening Times the number has been estimated to be at around 35,000. She also added no arrests were made." Except.....initial police estimates were much, much more. Maybe the extra weren't on the march, just going along to watch. Whatever, we weren't there, there isn't an official statement from PS- they have better things to do- but it still stands that actual unknowns become 'facts' so easily, because we don't think independently..or because we wish to believe them as it suits our beliefs. That it is a nationalist march is highly relevant to the point, from past reporting history from the BBC. I could have picked a story about Raqqa and how the US has dropped more bombs/armaments in five months on one city than it did in Afghanistan in the whole of 2017 and the lack of reporting about the resulting wave of death and refugees that somehow are not acceptable to western countries....but that's a lot more complicated. We read in our chosen newspaper. We believe. We act accordingly. We are wrong. There's nothing at all unimportant about challenging numbers if the original sources do not exist. Just question, is all I'd ask." You say there isn't an official comment from Police Scotland, there is and I posted it above. If a police spokeswoman isn't official then I don't know what is. Given you keep saying initial police estimates were higher can you post what exactly was said (and where) | |||
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"You posted a comment from a third party......" That being the case you won't be able to believe anything in the media as it is from a third party whenever they are quoting someone. Where did you get the information from that the police initially had a higher estimate? A healthy skepticism is fine but there's a line between that and outright paranoia. Personally I don't believe the Evening Times lied when quoting a Police Scotland spokeswoman in the number in attendance and number of arrests. | |||
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"The police estimate was reported as 92,000 by some and as 80,000 by the local television. That's a huge difference from the BBC 35,000. Police Scotland have not released any formal numbers. And, no, you can't actually believe anything on media. Most of it doesn't matter a toss but sometimes it impacts on lives. The numbers of newspapers sold or the funding of broadcasting relies on money from patrons. It's a brave media who disenfranchises the source of wealth. Hence....The death of truth." Police Scotland have given the numbers when asked by the Evening Times. Where else do you expect to see them? Do you expect them to take out a full page advert giving the numbers whenever there is a parade? You're showing incredible double standards here (again) by refusing to believe information that has been given while not backing up your own figures. If my figures are supposedly from a third party it seems safe to point out yours are made up, given your continual failure to show where you got them from. But let's be honest, we've been here before quite a few times with this in the past whether it be reports you've read but can't link to, embedded sources etc. | |||
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"But does it really matter if it was 35,000 or 90,000? The population of Scotland is about 5.5 million, and 3.5 years ago, they were given a vote on independence, and they rejected it. So who really cares about a vocal rabble of 35 or 90,000? These will just be hardcore nationalism fanatics at any price. Mostly unemployed and uneducated and incapable of making rational decisions, and unlikely to be greatly affected by independence or Scotland remaining in the UK." Exactly, it's a tiny number compared to those who voted no. OP is just looking to perpetuate the nationalist agenda that the BBC is biased against them so they're somehow lying about the figures to make them look bad. Gtievance is what they thrive on. Even when I've pointed out the information came from a Police Spokeswoman who spoke to the press they still want to believe the BBC lied. As I said earlier though, nationalism does funny things to folk and they thrive on such things. | |||
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"But does it really matter if it was 35,000 or 90,000? The population of Scotland is about 5.5 million, and 3.5 years ago, they were given a vote on independence, and they rejected it. So who really cares about a vocal rabble of 35 or 90,000? These will just be hardcore nationalism fanatics at any price. Mostly unemployed and uneducated and incapable of making rational decisions, and unlikely to be greatly affected by independence or Scotland remaining in the UK. Exactly, it's a tiny number compared to those who voted no. OP is just looking to perpetuate the nationalist agenda that the BBC is biased against them so they're somehow lying about the figures to make them look bad. Gtievance is what they thrive on. Even when I've pointed out the information came from a Police Spokeswoman who spoke to the press they still want to believe the BBC lied. As I said earlier though, nationalism does funny things to folk and they thrive on such things." I'm sure the OP would believe me if I said that I knew someone embedded with the protest who told me there were only 3,500 people there, but that I can't reveal the source.  | |||
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"But does it really matter if it was 35,000 or 90,000? The population of Scotland is about 5.5 million, and 3.5 years ago, they were given a vote on independence, and they rejected it. So who really cares about a vocal rabble of 35 or 90,000? These will just be hardcore nationalism fanatics at any price. Mostly unemployed and uneducated and incapable of making rational decisions, and unlikely to be greatly affected by independence or Scotland remaining in the UK. Exactly, it's a tiny number compared to those who voted no. OP is just looking to perpetuate the nationalist agenda that the BBC is biased against them so they're somehow lying about the figures to make them look bad. Gtievance is what they thrive on. Even when I've pointed out the information came from a Police Spokeswoman who spoke to the press they still want to believe the BBC lied. As I said earlier though, nationalism does funny things to folk and they thrive on such things." It's well seen you haven't either read the posts properly or actually understood them and are so utterly hooked on your own agendas you are actually not addressing what it was the post was about. I repeat again, it is about sources. No one can give an original source, because there is not an internet-accessible one. So in that case, no one guestimate about numbers is more valid than another. It's not about why the march was being held, or about who/where/when or even about the actual numbers....it's about the inability to verify, politics (small p), belief and truth ....IN GENERAL. | |||
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"The OP expects people to believe them without any proof, yet when others ask them to do the same, they call it trolling. "No... I didn't say anyone else was trolling but you. Please read and assimilate. Get over the fact you will never be told how/where/who my embedded source is in a war zone, and that googling 'embeded' will not provide you with the correct answer. You have had MONTHS to accept this yet......you don't seem to be able to understand. Grow up, move out of the playground and, better still, go get a shag | |||
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"But does it really matter if it was 35,000 or 90,000? The population of Scotland is about 5.5 million, and 3.5 years ago, they were given a vote on independence, and they rejected it. So who really cares about a vocal rabble of 35 or 90,000? These will just be hardcore nationalism fanatics at any price. Mostly unemployed and uneducated and incapable of making rational decisions, and unlikely to be greatly affected by independence or Scotland remaining in the UK. Exactly, it's a tiny number compared to those who voted no. OP is just looking to perpetuate the nationalist agenda that the BBC is biased against them so they're somehow lying about the figures to make them look bad. Gtievance is what they thrive on. Even when I've pointed out the information came from a Police Spokeswoman who spoke to the press they still want to believe the BBC lied. As I said earlier though, nationalism does funny things to folk and they thrive on such things. It's well seen you haven't either read the posts properly or actually understood them and are so utterly hooked on your own agendas you are actually not addressing what it was the post was about. I repeat again, it is about sources. No one can give an original source, because there is not an internet-accessible one. So in that case, no one guestimate about numbers is more valid than another. It's not about why the march was being held, or about who/where/when or even about the actual numbers....it's about the inability to verify, politics (small p), belief and truth ....IN GENERAL." So you still can't even say where you're getting your information here about the police originally giving out higher numbers (probably too embarrased to out the conspiracy/nationalist site you read it on) and claim my source isn't an 'internet accesible' one.....except for the fact it is: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/16208143.Scottish_independence_march_Glasgow__Can_you_spot_yourself_in_our_gallery_/ This is all getting tedious though as we've seen the same pattern from you on various posts regarding evidence. Never provide it and always question any that's provided by others. | |||
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"One day the English welsh and Irish may be asked if we want to keep Scotland in I wonder what result we would get what’s your guess mine is they would be booted out " Yes well they do have a recent history of making fucking stupid decisions based on rhetoric like that. | |||
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"One day the English welsh and Irish may be asked if we want to keep Scotland in I wonder what result we would get what’s your guess mine is they would be booted out Yes well they do have a recent history of making fucking stupid decisions based on rhetoric like that. " | |||
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"One day the English welsh and Irish may be asked if we want to keep Scotland in I wonder what result we would get what’s your guess mine is they would be booted out " Pretty sure when scotland has another indyref you will get your wish  | |||
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"Won’t reply to that comment otherwise I may get a ban "I'm not sure that "Why Jodie, that statement is demonstrably correct" would get you a ban. But perhaps forum rules have changed recently. | |||
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"99% of the population didn’t march. In fact Celtic and Rangers get the same number every week... " Can we extrapolate from this statistic that only 1 % want independence. | |||
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"Build the wall who needs Scotland." Im sure there will be loads of scots who will help you build it | |||
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"One day the English welsh and Irish may be asked if we want to keep Scotland in I wonder what result we would get what’s your guess mine is they would be booted out " Nah. Self-determination is a fundamental principle of the UN Charter. It means you get to determine your own fate, not the fate of others. That's imperialism. | |||
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"One day the English welsh and Irish may be asked if we want to keep Scotland in I wonder what result we would get what’s your guess mine is they would be booted out Nah. Self-determination is a fundamental principle of the UN Charter. It means you get to determine your own fate, not the fate of others. That's imperialism. " Didnt notice the UN spending much time talking about Catalonia | |||
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"But does it really matter if it was 35,000 or 90,000? The population of Scotland is about 5.5 million, and 3.5 years ago, they were given a vote on independence, and they rejected it. So who really cares about a vocal rabble of 35 or 90,000? These will just be hardcore nationalism fanatics at any price. Mostly unemployed and uneducated and incapable of making rational decisions, and unlikely to be greatly affected by independence or Scotland remaining in the UK. Exactly, it's a tiny number compared to those who voted no. OP is just looking to perpetuate the nationalist agenda that the BBC is biased against them so they're somehow lying about the figures to make them look bad. Gtievance is what they thrive on. Even when I've pointed out the information came from a Police Spokeswoman who spoke to the press they still want to believe the BBC lied. As I said earlier though, nationalism does funny things to folk and they thrive on such things. It's well seen you haven't either read the posts properly or actually understood them and are so utterly hooked on your own agendas you are actually not addressing what it was the post was about. I repeat again, it is about sources. No one can give an original source, because there is not an internet-accessible one. So in that case, no one guestimate about numbers is more valid than another. It's not about why the march was being held, or about who/where/when or even about the actual numbers....it's about the inability to verify, politics (small p), belief and truth ....IN GENERAL. So you still can't even say where you're getting your information here about the police originally giving out higher numbers (probably too embarrased to out the conspiracy/nationalist site you read it on) and claim my source isn't an 'internet accesible' one.....except for the fact it is: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/16208143.Scottish_independence_march_Glasgow__Can_you_spot_yourself_in_our_gallery_/ This is all getting tedious though as we've seen the same pattern from you on various posts regarding evidence. Never provide it and always question any that's provided by others." I haven't been online so haven't read any request for information. Your last paragraph is simply a petty lie. To be clear- 1) this is not about nationalism- it's about truth and evidence. 2) I don't read nationalist papers and would not base a thread on anything I'd read there as being exact because it's no more likely to be than a main circulation paper- they ALL have agendas. 3) the initial claims I'd read were from police-based and local sources on twitter- you can't repost these 4)it's not brain surgery to go look yourself for information and scores you no kudos to bang on about not posting sources when all you have done is reference second hand, or third or fourth, statements and think that's a point with which to score because it shows complete misunderstanding about what this is about. Those are not sources. There are no online sources, as far as I can find- that's the crux of the whole point!!!! To be clear- a source in this context is an actual police statement. Can you provide one? Nothing else is a basis for moral high ground of any sort. | |||
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"One day the English welsh and Irish may be asked if we want to keep Scotland in I wonder what result we would get what’s your guess mine is they would be booted out Nah. Self-determination is a fundamental principle of the UN Charter. It means you get to determine your own fate, not the fate of others. That's imperialism. " That is more to do with national sovereignty, not separatist movements. Forget Scotland and Catalonia, think Somaliland and Western Sahara. Also think about Russia ignoring Ukraine's sovereignty and annexing huge swathes of land. | |||
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"One day the English welsh and Irish may be asked if we want to keep Scotland in I wonder what result we would get what’s your guess mine is they would be booted out " They would be out !!! I've said this for years lol . If Sturgeion really wanted independence she would ask for a UK Referendum ! Then hopefully England would get its Freedom ! | |||
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"Is the op kinkyhns in disguise? " Kinky is a nationalist. I'm not lol. I have no vote in the UK and I'm not British lol. So....no )
And....For hopefully the last time.....I was not posting about Scottish Nationalism. The fact that the hounds descended with a one track mind says more about their insecurities with UK nations than anything I'd post lol.
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" 3) the initial claims I'd read were from police-based and local sources on twitter- you can't repost these " And bingo, there we have it
'sources', 'police-based', 'local sources on twitter'
Looks like I was right earlier. Same patter every single time
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"One day the English welsh and Irish may be asked if we want to keep Scotland in I wonder what result we would get what’s your guess mine is they would be booted out They would be out !!! I've said this for years lol . If Sturgeion really wanted independence she would ask for a UK Referendum ! Then hopefully England would get its Freedom !" Every single party including UKIP is in favour of the UK remaining together, and I expect if a referendum were held in England, so would most of the population. The ties binding us together run deep. | |||
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" 3) the initial claims I'd read were from police-based and local sources on twitter- you can't repost these And bingo, there we have it
'sources', 'police-based', 'local sources on twitter'
Looks like I was right earlier. Same patter every single time
"So your third and fourth hand quotes are more valid than that? Don't be so stupid. The only quotes that matter are SOURCES. There are no police ones to be found. Get your nationalist prejudice out of your head and grasp that what you read in a newspaper,especially about any form of politics, is no more valid than any other informed comment. | |||
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"But does it really matter if it was 35,000 or 90,000? The population of Scotland is about 5.5 million, and 3.5 years ago, they were given a vote on independence, and they rejected it. So who really cares about a vocal rabble of 35 or 90,000? These will just be hardcore nationalism fanatics at any price. Mostly unemployed and uneducated and incapable of making rational decisions, and unlikely to be greatly affected by independence or Scotland remaining in the UK. Exactly, it's a tiny number compared to those who voted no. OP is just looking to perpetuate the nationalist agenda that the BBC is biased against them so they're somehow lying about the figures to make them look bad. Gtievance is what they thrive on. Even when I've pointed out the information came from a Police Spokeswoman who spoke to the press they still want to believe the BBC lied. As I said earlier though, nationalism does funny things to folk and they thrive on such things. It's well seen you haven't either read the posts properly or actually understood them and are so utterly hooked on your own agendas you are actually not addressing what it was the post was about. I repeat again, it is about sources. No one can give an original source, because there is not an internet-accessible one. So in that case, no one guestimate about numbers is more valid than another. It's not about why the march was being held, or about who/where/when or even about the actual numbers....it's about the inability to verify, politics (small p), belief and truth ....IN GENERAL. So you still can't even say where you're getting your information here about the police originally giving out higher numbers (probably too embarrased to out the conspiracy/nationalist site you read it on) and claim my source isn't an 'internet accesible' one.....except for the fact it is: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/16208143.Scottish_independence_march_Glasgow__Can_you_spot_yourself_in_our_gallery_/ This is all getting tedious though as we've seen the same pattern from you on various posts regarding evidence. Never provide it and always question any that's provided by others. I haven't been online so haven't read any request for information. Your last paragraph is simply a petty lie. To be clear- 1) this is not about nationalism- it's about truth and evidence. 2) I don't read nationalist papers and would not base a thread on anything I'd read there as being exact because it's no more likely to be than a main circulation paper- they ALL have agendas. 3) the initial claims I'd read were from police-based and local sources on twitter- you can't repost these 4)it's not brain surgery to go look yourself for information and scores you no kudos to bang on about not posting sources when all you have done is reference second hand, or third or fourth, statements and think that's a point with which to score because it shows complete misunderstanding about what this is about. Those are not sources. There are no online sources, as far as I can find- that's the crux of the whole point!!!! To be clear- a source in this context is an actual police statement. Can you provide one? Nothing else is a basis for moral high ground of any sort. " Aren’t 3) and 4) slightly contradictory? If there are no primary sources what are you angry about the bbc for ? | |||
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"I'm not angry at them. They are mentioned because of their historically misleading reporting- a significant march of tens of thousands was reported with a picture of six people. So a mention of 35000 or whatever, was progress. " Seriously, stop believeing what you read in conspiracy sites (or all those secret sources you aren't allowed to share). Here's the BBC's report on the March from 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40143671 I see more than 6 people in those pics | |||
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"Wrong report. " Well you said the BBC so this is their report on last years March. If it's another March then feel free to break the habit of a lifetime and post a link to the one you are referring to. Given it's the BBC you are referring to it should be easy to find (btw I've looked) | |||
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"Well, carry on looking. It was a major, well published issue at the time and well known. Sure it'll still have an Internet presence. If you need to make yourself aware of it , YOU trawl though the reports. Your lack of knowledge of it is not a stance upon which to suggest it does not exist. If you need to know - it's there. Go find. I made my points. No more. If just one person looks at a media report and wonders, rather than simply takes it as absolute truth, I'll be pleased." Didn't the trump administration coin the term "alternative facts" in relation to the number of people attending an event? Most people on the thread seem to be accepting the numbers put forward by police Scotland. Police Scotland have a great deal of experience in assessing crowd numbers, and unlike the event organisers, have no reasons to suggest the event was more popular than it actually was. You on the other hand OP, seem to be focusing on some "alternative facts" | |||
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"Sadly, you are so obsessed with the independence issue that you are not understanding what I was posting. It's actually nothing to do with Nationalism per se, but to do with media reporting. It doesn't matter who/what/why they were marching, it's the number and where that number came from. Do you actually trust media? As far as I can see from this distance, the initial police estimate was very much higher but there is no online information to confirm whether the 35k that was mentioned is correct or not, or indeed, actually DID come from the police. I actually don't care how many were on the march but the gullibility of public regarding 'information' they read in newspapers is worrying. The point of the rally was to do with Scottish matters, hence the flippant reference to something similar in England. None of the examples given are comparable. So why the Catalan banners then? You should ask about the lerge banner from the fascist organisation they were marching behind. "You dont mention the homophobic nazi unionist fascists who heckled marchers or are you the only person in scotland who hasnt seen it? or maybe you condone it | |||
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"Well, carry on looking. It was a major, well published issue at the time and well known. Sure it'll still have an Internet presence. If you need to make yourself aware of it , YOU trawl though the reports. Your lack of knowledge of it is not a stance upon which to suggest it does not exist. If you need to know - it's there. Go find. I made my points. No more. If just one person looks at a media report and wonders, rather than simply takes it as absolute truth, I'll be pleased." This whole thread is based on a myth/lie. You said the BBC only showed a pic of 6 people the last time and I've linked to the BBC report showing that's untrue. You now claim that's the wrong report but it's definitely not. And for something you claim was widely publicised there's nothing to be found on the BBC about it. If you stopped relying on conspiracy/ pro indy grievance sites for your news and went direct to the source instead you wouldn't get yourself into these situations time and time again on here, where you are unable to provide evidence for your claims and your only retort is 'go look for it'. You can't go looking for something that doesn't exist. It's incredible you never learn from this. | |||
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"It's incredible you don't actually read and assimilate before you go off on a rant. It is NOT about independence, it IS about media reporting. Nothing whatsoever, with NO input from any independence newspapers. That you chose to stick to the belief that it is, shows more about your misunderstanding, willful or not, of what I actually said. I've said this all through the thread. The last time ( and I accept that my sentence is ambiguous) as far as I am aware, the BBC was found to have grossly under-reported on numbers during a march in Glasgow,(I didn't know the same lot had marched last year) they'd put a piece about it alongside a picture of six people, when there had been tens of thousands. It's pretty well known in the city. I had hoped they'd revisited their policy on this and was hopeful they had. " Your grievance is about the media, but you haven't been able to prove any of your points. You haven't been able to show the BBC photo of just 6 people. You haven't been able to provide quotes from Police Scotland with different numbers of attendees. | |||
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"But does it really matter if it was 35,000 or 90,000? The population of Scotland is about 5.5 million, and 3.5 years ago, they were given a vote on independence, and they rejected it. So who really cares about a vocal rabble of 35 or 90,000? These will just be hardcore nationalism fanatics at any price. Mostly unemployed and uneducated and incapable of making rational decisions, and unlikely to be greatly affected by independence or Scotland remaining in the UK." the people voted no based on lies and fearmongering from the media and the better together campaign and to assume that the majority of people wanting indepence are rabble unemployed and uneducated shows you to be an arsehole who needs to stop rwading the daily mail etc | |||
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"It's incredible you don't actually read and assimilate before you go off on a rant. It is NOT about independence, it IS about media reporting. Nothing whatsoever, with NO input from any independence newspapers. That you chose to stick to the belief that it is, shows more about your misunderstanding, willful or not, of what I actually said. I've said this all through the thread. The last time ( and I accept that my sentence is ambiguous) as far as I am aware, the BBC was found to have grossly under-reported on numbers during a march in Glasgow,(I didn't know the same lot had marched last year) they'd put a piece about it alongside a picture of six people, when there had been tens of thousands. It's pretty well known in the city. I had hoped they'd revisited their policy on this and was hopeful they had. " This thread must be very embarrasing for you. Not sure what you mean about pretty well known in the city (Glasgow) as we live there and you're in Winchester. What you're claiming definitely isn't well known here. Your claims are pretty bizarre. | |||
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"the people voted no based on lies and fearmongering from the media and the better together campaign and to assume that the majority of people wanting indepence are rabble unemployed and uneducated shows you to be an arsehole who needs to stop rwading the daily mail etc " The population are all idiots because they voted in a way you disagreed with? Oh, dearie me . . . you need to take a step back and think about what you are saying | |||
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"the people voted no based on lies and fearmongering from the media and the better together campaign and to assume that the majority of people wanting indepence are rabble unemployed and uneducated shows you to be an arsehole who needs to stop rwading the daily mail etc The population are all idiots because they voted in a way you disagreed with? Oh, dearie me . . . you need to take a step back and think about what you are saying" you need to read what I said better I never said anyone was an idiot for voting differently from me I said the other poster was an an arsehole for assuming that yes voters were rabble unemployed and uneducated I did say that a majority of people voted no based on lies from the msm and the leave campaign duh | |||
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"the people voted no based on lies and fearmongering from the media and the better together campaign and to assume that the majority of people wanting indepence are rabble unemployed and uneducated shows you to be an arsehole who needs to stop rwading the daily mail etc The population are all idiots because they voted in a way you disagreed with? Oh, dearie me . . . you need to take a step back and think about what you are sayingyou need to read what I said better I never said anyone was an idiot for voting differently from me I said the other poster was an an arsehole for assuming that yes voters were rabble unemployed and uneducated I did say that a majority of people voted no based on lies from the msm and the leave campaign duh " You're making an assumption that two million people are spoon fed their opinions by media. How many of the 2 million have you met to verify this? | |||
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"the people voted no based on lies and fearmongering from the media and the better together campaign and to assume that the majority of people wanting indepence are rabble unemployed and uneducated shows you to be an arsehole who needs to stop rwading the daily mail etc The population are all idiots because they voted in a way you disagreed with? Oh, dearie me . . . you need to take a step back and think about what you are sayingyou need to read what I said better I never said anyone was an idiot for voting differently from me I said the other poster was an an arsehole for assuming that yes voters were rabble unemployed and uneducated I did say that a majority of people voted no based on lies from the msm and the leave campaign duh You're making an assumption that two million people are spoon fed their opinions by media. How many of the 2 million have you met to verify this?" How many of the people who voted have you met I have many friends who were on both sides The indie movement started with 25% and reached 45% How many more would we have got if 95% of the media hadn't been biased to the unionists It wasn't called project fear for nothing Pensioners were told they would lose their pensions People were told vote no or have to leave the EU Vote no to save shipbuilding jobs etc etc etc all lies The so called vow spread all over the news yet more lies | |||
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"The biggest selling newspaper in Scotland was pro-SNP. I'm Scottish. I did not have a vote but I know plenty who did. The undecideds were few and far between - the media merely validated their reasons for voting yes or no. Bollocks lol The only pro indie newspaper in Scotland is the national and its by no means the biggest If you werent living here then you have no idea how bad the unionist propaganda was pushed by the media. Unionist views were presented as facts anything indie was constantly referred to as claims or assertions Unionists had the power of the press and media behind them all we had was the power of the people grassroots organisations and bloggers etc to try and counter their lies " | |||
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"The Scottish edition of the Sun is the largest selling newspaper in Scotland. " aye and it was in no way pro indie except possibly the last day when murdoch hedged his bets Try checking out the different headlines on the so called English version and Scottish versions of all the papers they tell folk in england one thing and us another they lie to suit their own agenda first with the referendum then Brexit | |||
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"It's incredible you don't actually read and assimilate before you go off on a rant. It is NOT about independence, it IS about media reporting. Nothing whatsoever, with NO input from any independence newspapers. That you chose to stick to the belief that it is, shows more about your misunderstanding, willful or not, of what I actually said. I've said this all through the thread. The last time ( and I accept that my sentence is ambiguous) as far as I am aware, the BBC was found to have grossly under-reported on numbers during a march in Glasgow,(I didn't know the same lot had marched last year) they'd put a piece about it alongside a picture of six people, when there had been tens of thousands. It's pretty well known in the city. I had hoped they'd revisited their policy on this and was hopeful they had. This thread must be very embarrasing for you. Not sure what you mean about pretty well known in the city (Glasgow) as we live there and you're in Winchester. What you're claiming definitely isn't well known here. Your claims are pretty bizarre." Why would I be embarrassed about one person's ignorance? | |||
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"I'm sick of hearing about Scottish independence. We voted .Cunty Sturgeon lost. Accept that fact and move on . " Think youl be hearing alot more about it in coming months lol,if your sick of hearing about it just scroll by | |||
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"aye right if you live in cloud cuckoo land and independence wasn't about salmond or surgeon or the snp it was about the right to run our own country something many people forgot." We had that right in 2014, we chose to reject independence and maintain our place in the union. | |||
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"aye right if you live in cloud cuckoo land and independence wasn't about salmond or surgeon or the snp it was about the right to run our own country something many people forgot. We had that right in 2014, we chose to reject independence and maintain our place in the union. " aye and many voted based on lies perpetuated by the msm that doesn't mean we have to give up .Its called democracy if you are happy to have all the major decisions decided by the Tory scum in Westminster that's your right I won't deny it but I will argue against it and fight for independence always | |||
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"I'm sick of hearing about Scottish independence. We voted .Cunty Sturgeon lost. Accept that fact and move on . Think youl be hearing alot more about it in coming months lol,if your sick of hearing about it just scroll by "What makes surgeon a cunt would You rather have Davidson or may in charge of everything with their failed austerity their downright murderous policies etc | |||
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"I'm sick of hearing about Scottish independence. We voted .Cunty Sturgeon lost. Accept that fact and move on . Think youl be hearing alot more about it in coming months lol,if your sick of hearing about it just scroll by What makes surgeon a cunt would You rather have Davidson or may in charge of everything with their failed austerity their downright murderous policies etc "The ones doing the name calling about oor nicola dont know any better its been drummed into them from an early age | |||
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"I'm sick of hearing about Scottish independence. We voted .Cunty Sturgeon lost. Accept that fact and move on . Think youl be hearing alot more about it in coming months lol,if your sick of hearing about it just scroll by What makes surgeon a cunt would You rather have Davidson or may in charge of everything with their failed austerity their downright murderous policies etc
The ones doing the name calling about oor nicola dont know any better its been drummed into them from an early age "Has your love for her been drummed into you from an early age? | |||
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"I'm sick of hearing about Scottish independence. We voted .Cunty Sturgeon lost. Accept that fact and move on . Think youl be hearing alot more about it in coming months lol,if your sick of hearing about it just scroll by What makes surgeon a cunt would You rather have Davidson or may in charge of everything with their failed austerity their downright murderous policies etc
The ones doing the name calling about oor nicola dont know any better its been drummed into them from an early age
Has your love for her been drummed into you from an early age? "Of course it has ,so you condone namecalling ? | |||
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"I'm sick of hearing about Scottish independence. We voted .Cunty Sturgeon lost. Accept that fact and move on . Think youl be hearing alot more about it in coming months lol,if your sick of hearing about it just scroll by What makes surgeon a cunt would You rather have Davidson or may in charge of everything with their failed austerity their downright murderous policies etc
The ones doing the name calling about oor nicola dont know any better its been drummed into them from an early age
Has your love for her been drummed into you from an early age?
Of course it has ,so you condone namecalling ?"You've called people "saddos" and "fool"s on here, that's name calling. | |||
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"I'm sick of hearing about Scottish independence. We voted .Cunty Sturgeon lost. Accept that fact and move on . Think youl be hearing alot more about it in coming months lol,if your sick of hearing about it just scroll by What makes surgeon a cunt would You rather have Davidson or may in charge of everything with their failed austerity their downright murderous policies etc
The ones doing the name calling about oor nicola dont know any better its been drummed into them from an early age
Has your love for her been drummed into you from an early age?
Of course it has ,so you condone namecalling ?
You've called people "saddos" and "fool"s on here, that's name calling. "Never called anyone a saddo maybe a fool yes but thats a bit different from calling our first minister that cunt sturgeon you can see the hatered from them when we all know she is the best politician in the uk | |||
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"Such a lot of nasty words. Scotland is already a nation -an ancient nation at that. Independence just makes us the same as every other nation in the world. That's all we want - to be the same. If you have better system - do tell us what it is. Go on - I dare you; tell us that Westminster is better than every other system in the world. Aye, right!" It's been working fine since most countries in the world even existed! | |||
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"So we still don't have a single link from the OP to backup her lies. Same old story." See you never answered the question i asked when you mentioned a facist banner you seen | |||
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"....and there's not a mention of a primary source from you to back up your 'claims'. Same old story. Pot and kettle. As I've said, here are rules for posting details of twitter quotes but that doesn't stop you going to look yourself. The nazi banners were from a handful of protestors- UNIONISTS. The Sunday Herald has just published an apology for publishing a misleading picture suggesting there were more than a very small group, because of the complaints. " Nazi banners? Another lie. Explain here what a Nazi banner is and provide evidence of it. The only thing close to a Nazi banner was the one from the extreme nationalist movement Siol nan Gaidheal. They have been described as proto-fascists by the SNP. I can post a pic (unlike you) if proof is needed. Also, the Herald didn't publish an apology for misleading pictures, it published an editorial about threats it had received from Nats despite being a pro indy paper and has urged the SNP to speak out against them. It's ironic the pro indy Herald has ignored all those threats and bile until it was aimed at them: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16222188.Criticism_of_the_press_is_good__but_hatred_is_dangerous_and_anti_democratic_-_if_the_SNP_does_not_speak_up_the_cause_of_independence_will_be_wounded/ | |||
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"I wouldn't worry about a premise like that unless there is more substance than wanting a self-determining country. Needs an awful lot more than a sense of self to make a person a fascist." Then it would seem strange that you questioned if that was fascism just a few posts up then. | |||
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"Maybe you should find out more about them and their views. " I did read some of their stuff but it wasn't fascist. Strongly worded enthusiasm for independence, yes but not enough to say fascist. Perhaps you may suggest something that does go further? | |||
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"Proto fascist is how I and others have described them. " You might well, but they're not. D'annuncio was and he defines what a proto-fascist is but this lot are nowhere near that stage. | |||
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"Anyone who was at the march or seen the videos online will know that all the bigoted secterian bile and nazi salutes were coming from the ones with the union flags " Agreed
I’ll be in Dumfries next week for AUOB and will no doubt be subjected to we arra peppul. No surrender yoons again | |||
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"All I can find are newspaper sources for the numbers attending - but none from Police Scotland. Are there any? The pictures show a sea of Saltires. It was in Scotland. There was no wish by the organisers to limit where the people came from but stands to reason the vast majority were from the UK. My point is about journalism, reporting and what would be made of an equivalent number marching in England- is there even enough consensus in England to march about ANYTHING? Anything? You can't think of anything? This list might jog your memory... https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/28/demonstrations-protests-uk-list ....that 350,000 people would March to support? Stop the War had either 750,000 or 2,000,000 in London in 2003. Same march in Glasgow had 50,000 or 100,000. Maybe what really counts is the number that didn't march?" Millions didn't march | |||
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