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"I think it's the best way to sort out the NI/Eire border issue. "With the deals the Tories agreed in December I cant see any other way forward. Ireland and the EU wont accept a border on the island, the borders at Canada/US and Norway/Sweden are unacceptable and Mays agreed no border between Northern Ireland and the mainland UK. I cant see any other option at all. | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ??" Sigh of relief? | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? Sigh of relief? " No not really! Just sick and tired of listening to Lilly livered people and politicians bleating about it all of the time. As far as I’m concerned they can now do what they want I’m out for myself from now on | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? Sigh of relief? No not really! Just sick and tired of listening to Lilly livered people and politicians bleating about it all of the time. As far as I’m concerned they can now do what they want I’m out for myself from now on "If you're financially settled for the rest of your life, costs of purchases etc and the UK economy means little, then legislation that determines the UK's relationship with the EU means nothing. | |||
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"Is this the EU Withdrawal Bill?" Yes  | |||
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"The government has suffered a major loss in the House of Lords, forcing the government to explore EU customs union membership. 348 to 225 for the customs union option, which was a cross-party amendment to the bill." Utterly meaningless. All that will happen is the vote now goes over to the house of commons where the government will overturn it and send it back to the Lords to vote on again. It's called 'ping pong' in Westminster circles and happens quite often. It's usually the house of commons who end up getting what they want as the commons is the elected chamber and therefore holds more power. | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ??" It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. If they can't overturn the referendum result outright then they will fight tooth and nail to frustrate the process or to water Brexit down so that we only leave in name only. They are DELUDED. It's just been on BBC 2 Newsnight that a government spokesperson has said even If this ammendment goes through, the wording is so vague that it's meaningless. The ammendment says the government could consider the option of a customs union. The government can say they looked at it, considered it and rejected it. The end result will still be that we leave the EU customs union so we can do our own trade deals around the rest of the world. The article 50 phase 1 agreement text with the EU also states that we are leaving the customs union and the single market. This is now in the process of being made legally binding with the EU and is already a settled position in the Brexit negotiations. The agreement that has been reached with the EU on the transition period also states that we're free to negotiate our own trade deals during the transition period (this means leaving the customs union). This is also a settled, agreed and signed position with the EU's signature on it. We are leaving the customs union. End of. | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. If they can't overturn the referendum result outright then they will fight tooth and nail to frustrate the process or to water Brexit down so that we only leave in name only. They are DELUDED. It's just been on BBC 2 Newsnight that a government spokesperson has said even If this ammendment goes through, the wording is so vague that it's meaningless. The ammendment says the government could consider the option of a customs union. The government can say they looked at it, considered it and rejected it. The end result will still be that we leave the EU customs union so we can do our own trade deals around the rest of the world. The article 50 phase 1 agreement text with the EU also states that we are leaving the customs union and the single market. This is now in the process of being made legally binding with the EU and is already a settled position in the Brexit negotiations. The agreement that has been reached with the EU on the transition period also states that we're free to negotiate our own trade deals during the transition period (this means leaving the customs union). This is also a settled, agreed and signed position with the EU's signature on it. We are leaving the customs union. End of. " Bet you got hard typing that. Bet it made little centaur weep. | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. If they can't overturn the referendum result outright then they will fight tooth and nail to frustrate the process or to water Brexit down so that we only leave in name only. They are DELUDED. It's just been on BBC 2 Newsnight that a government spokesperson has said even If this ammendment goes through, the wording is so vague that it's meaningless. The ammendment says the government could consider the option of a customs union. The government can say they looked at it, considered it and rejected it. The end result will still be that we leave the EU customs union so we can do our own trade deals around the rest of the world. The article 50 phase 1 agreement text with the EU also states that we are leaving the customs union and the single market. This is now in the process of being made legally binding with the EU and is already a settled position in the Brexit negotiations. The agreement that has been reached with the EU on the transition period also states that we're free to negotiate our own trade deals during the transition period (this means leaving the customs union). This is also a settled, agreed and signed position with the EU's signature on it. We are leaving the customs union. End of. Bet you got hard typing that. Bet it made little centaur weep. " Nothing of substance to add so you attempt pathetic little digs. 
Maybe because it has dawned on you that what I said was right, and you've got nothing left to say. | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. If they can't overturn the referendum result outright then they will fight tooth and nail to frustrate the process or to water Brexit down so that we only leave in name only. They are DELUDED. It's just been on BBC 2 Newsnight that a government spokesperson has said even If this ammendment goes through, the wording is so vague that it's meaningless. The ammendment says the government could consider the option of a customs union. The government can say they looked at it, considered it and rejected it. The end result will still be that we leave the EU customs union so we can do our own trade deals around the rest of the world. The article 50 phase 1 agreement text with the EU also states that we are leaving the customs union and the single market. This is now in the process of being made legally binding with the EU and is already a settled position in the Brexit negotiations. The agreement that has been reached with the EU on the transition period also states that we're free to negotiate our own trade deals during the transition period (this means leaving the customs union). This is also a settled, agreed and signed position with the EU's signature on it. We are leaving the customs union. End of. " | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. If they can't overturn the referendum result outright then they will fight tooth and nail to frustrate the process or to water Brexit down so that we only leave in name only. They are DELUDED. It's just been on BBC 2 Newsnight that a government spokesperson has said even If this ammendment goes through, the wording is so vague that it's meaningless. The ammendment says the government could consider the option of a customs union. The government can say they looked at it, considered it and rejected it. The end result will still be that we leave the EU customs union so we can do our own trade deals around the rest of the world. The article 50 phase 1 agreement text with the EU also states that we are leaving the customs union and the single market. This is now in the process of being made legally binding with the EU and is already a settled position in the Brexit negotiations. The agreement that has been reached with the EU on the transition period also states that we're free to negotiate our own trade deals during the transition period (this means leaving the customs union). This is also a settled, agreed and signed position with the EU's signature on it. We are leaving the customs union. End of. " The transmission period ant there yet , the uk government still has to sort out the border problem , and this is a way out of that problem for may , Tusk said today that unless the uk comes up with a solution that avoids a hard Border on the island of Ireland, both arrangements for its transition out of the union and the EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement are in jeopardy. | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. If they can't overturn the referendum result outright then they will fight tooth and nail to frustrate the process or to water Brexit down so that we only leave in name only. They are DELUDED. It's just been on BBC 2 Newsnight that a government spokesperson has said even If this ammendment goes through, the wording is so vague that it's meaningless. The ammendment says the government could consider the option of a customs union. The government can say they looked at it, considered it and rejected it. The end result will still be that we leave the EU customs union so we can do our own trade deals around the rest of the world. The article 50 phase 1 agreement text with the EU also states that we are leaving the customs union and the single market. This is now in the process of being made legally binding with the EU and is already a settled position in the Brexit negotiations. The agreement that has been reached with the EU on the transition period also states that we're free to negotiate our own trade deals during the transition period (this means leaving the customs union). This is also a settled, agreed and signed position with the EU's signature on it. We are leaving the customs union. End of. The transmission period ant there yet , the uk government still has to sort out the border problem , and this is a way out of that problem for may , Tusk said today that unless the uk comes up with a solution that avoids a hard Border on the island of Ireland, both arrangements for its transition out of the union and the EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement are in jeopardy. " The Brexit press conference screen display with Barnier and Davis earlier this year showed that 75% of what needs to be agreed between the UK and the EU has already been agreed. David Davis said in a recent interview that upto 90% of what needs to be agreed has already been agreed now. The more what you may call little items are agreed the better as this focuses minds on the bigger problems like the Northern Ireland border so I'm confident a solution will be found and agreed. The transition period obviously isn't here yet but the terms of it are agreed in principle. If Tusk and Juncker thinks it's in Jeopardy that means the EU's divorce bill settlement is also in jeopardy then Juncker and Tusk won't get their grubby mitts on any of our money either if there is no deal. | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. " Completely out of touch with the British public.... You having a fucking laugh, you're the one deluded if you think a 4% difference constitutes the the entire British public. It's bollocks statements like this you come out with that totally screws any form of credibility you could have with your views. An opinion is an opinion, neither side of opinions are wrong, until it's backed up with facts, then that's where you always come undone. Just point out your opinion but stop lying to back up your opinion. | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. If they can't overturn the referendum result outright then they will fight tooth and nail to frustrate the process or to water Brexit down so that we only leave in name only. They are DELUDED. It's just been on BBC 2 Newsnight that a government spokesperson has said even If this ammendment goes through, the wording is so vague that it's meaningless. The ammendment says the government could consider the option of a customs union. The government can say they looked at it, considered it and rejected it. The end result will still be that we leave the EU customs union so we can do our own trade deals around the rest of the world. The article 50 phase 1 agreement text with the EU also states that we are leaving the customs union and the single market. This is now in the process of being made legally binding with the EU and is already a settled position in the Brexit negotiations. The agreement that has been reached with the EU on the transition period also states that we're free to negotiate our own trade deals during the transition period (this means leaving the customs union). This is also a settled, agreed and signed position with the EU's signature on it. We are leaving the customs union. End of. The transmission period ant there yet , the uk government still has to sort out the border problem , and this is a way out of that problem for may , Tusk said today that unless the uk comes up with a solution that avoids a hard Border on the island of Ireland, both arrangements for its transition out of the union and the EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement are in jeopardy. The Brexit press conference screen display with Barnier and Davis earlier this year showed that 75% of what needs to be agreed between the UK and the EU has already been agreed. David Davis said in a recent interview that upto 90% of what needs to be agreed has already been agreed now. The more what you may call little items are agreed the better as this focuses minds on the bigger problems like the Northern Ireland border so I'm confident a solution will be found and agreed. The transition period obviously isn't here yet but the terms of it are agreed in principle. If Tusk and Juncker thinks it's in Jeopardy that means the EU's divorce bill settlement is also in jeopardy then Juncker and Tusk won't get their grubby mitts on any of our money either if there is no deal. " Lets just say 90% has been agreed. Note agreed, not finalised and ratified. Anyway, lets just say 90% - it doesnt matter. Nothing will be agreed and signed until the border isdue is resolved. Until then that 90% is a hypothetical 90% | |||
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"Hardly anything has been agreed yet! " I was just looking for something smaller to quote. The rejected it for multiple reasons. Though I didn't watch the full debate I watched a decent hour and Ireland didn't crop up in it and trade didn't crop up in it. What did get discussed are the various legislative agreements we have that need clarification. There were several though the list ran into the hundreds - two that I can remember were child sex trafficking and rules around ownership of Trademarking. The Lord 'in charge' believed by 2020 these would be ironed out in due course, others believed they should be sorted before and were glad they were not Ministers. If anybody watched it - people would realise this is not a Eurocentric debate - this is an absolute fuck up of legislative detanglement across every single corner that govern our lives. | |||
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"Hardly anything has been agreed yet! I was just looking for something smaller to quote. The rejected it for multiple reasons. Though I didn't watch the full debate I watched a decent hour and Ireland didn't crop up in it and trade didn't crop up in it. What did get discussed are the various legislative agreements we have that need clarification. There were several though the list ran into the hundreds - two that I can remember were child sex trafficking and rules around ownership of Trademarking. The Lord 'in charge' believed by 2020 these would be ironed out in due course, others believed they should be sorted before and were glad they were not Ministers. If anybody watched it - people would realise this is not a Eurocentric debate - this is an absolute fuck up of legislative detanglement across every single corner that govern our lives. " Exactly, it's so intertwined, it will be nearly impossible to seperate. From airspace to cancer treatment, from pesticides to cultural events, it will have thousands upon thousands of unintended consequences. | |||
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"Hardly anything has been agreed yet! I was just looking for something smaller to quote. The rejected it for multiple reasons. Though I didn't watch the full debate I watched a decent hour and Ireland didn't crop up in it and trade didn't crop up in it. What did get discussed are the various legislative agreements we have that need clarification. There were several though the list ran into the hundreds - two that I can remember were child sex trafficking and rules around ownership of Trademarking. The Lord 'in charge' believed by 2020 these would be ironed out in due course, others believed they should be sorted before and were glad they were not Ministers. If anybody watched it - people would realise this is not a Eurocentric debate - this is an absolute fuck up of legislative detanglement across every single corner that govern our lives. Exactly, it's so intertwined, it will be nearly impossible to seperate. From airspace to cancer treatment, from pesticides to cultural events, it will have thousands upon thousands of unintended consequences. " The debates going on at the moment are so interesting (select committees, peer reviews and on) yet there's a representative few on here that do the Brexit vote no favours at all. (I think I put that well)  | |||
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"How dose the people that voted for brexit feel about this ?? It's a bunch of Europhile sore losers in the Lords throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't accept the referendum result and they can't accept that they lost. The main aim of many of these Lords is to overturn the result of the referendum (Lord Adonis already on record freely admitting this). They just can't accept that they are completely out of touch with the British public and that the British public have chosen a different path to the one they wanted. If they can't overturn the referendum result outright then they will fight tooth and nail to frustrate the process or to water Brexit down so that we only leave in name only. They are DELUDED. It's just been on BBC 2 Newsnight that a government spokesperson has said even If this ammendment goes through, the wording is so vague that it's meaningless. The ammendment says the government could consider the option of a customs union. The government can say they looked at it, considered it and rejected it. The end result will still be that we leave the EU customs union so we can do our own trade deals around the rest of the world. The article 50 phase 1 agreement text with the EU also states that we are leaving the customs union and the single market. This is now in the process of being made legally binding with the EU and is already a settled position in the Brexit negotiations. The agreement that has been reached with the EU on the transition period also states that we're free to negotiate our own trade deals during the transition period (this means leaving the customs union). This is also a settled, agreed and signed position with the EU's signature on it. We are leaving the customs union. End of. Bet you got hard typing that. Bet it made little centaur weep. Nothing of substance to add so you attempt pathetic little digs.
Maybe because it has dawned on you that what I said was right, and you've got nothing left to say. "I know you're right yes, in this particular case. We are leaving the customs union. But I still know that you're wrong as a whole, and that Brexit is going to royally fuck us. And yes, I enjoy digging because whenever I see one of your childish little "we won you lost" pieces I have no choice as you remind me of the comments section of the Mail and Express. | |||
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"Just lost the vote in the lords, so that the no deal option can be stopped. There's a relief. At least for now. " I think you underestimate our government's ability to fuck everything right up. | |||
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"Just lost the vote in the lords, so that the no deal option can be stopped. There's a relief. At least for now. I think you underestimate our government's ability to fuck everything right up." No, that's why I said "at least for now". I know they'll work hard to get the no deal scenario anyway. | |||
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"Just lost the vote in the lords, so that the no deal option can be stopped. There's a relief. At least for now. " That's great news that an unelected house of Lords can go against the electorate and the government the people have voted for, don't you just love democracy ?? ?? | |||
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"Just lost the vote in the lords, so that the no deal option can be stopped. There's a relief. At least for now. That's great news that an unelected house of Lords can go against the electorate and the government the people have voted for, don't you just love democracy ?? ?? " actually ironic you should post this.... because what was voted on in the lords tonight was that parliament should have the final vote on any deal.... i thought that is what people who voted leave wanted... for our parliament to have control! | |||
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"Just lost the vote in the lords, so that the no deal option can be stopped. There's a relief. At least for now. That's great news that an unelected house of Lords can go against the electorate and the government the people have voted for, don't you just love democracy ?? ?? " How's that going against anything? It's just safeguarding the avoidance of the crashing-out scenario. Of course this goes against the BJs, JRMs, MGs, etc *real* choice, which is indeed the crashing-out scenario. Damn those Lords for wanting to salvage even the tiniest shred of security for the average working person! In addition, didn't Brexiteers get a sore throat from shouting about sovereignty? Or was that a "regulatory alignment" type sovereignty where it's only invoked when *they* agree with the decisions? | |||
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"Just lost the vote in the lords, so that the no deal option can be stopped. There's a relief. At least for now. That's great news that an unelected house of Lords can go against the electorate and the government the people have voted for, don't you just love democracy ?? ?? " The house of Lord's makes up 50% of the British parliamentary democracy. Brexiters said that's what they wanted rather than the unicamral European parliament. Are you saying they have changed their minds now? | |||
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"Just lost the vote in the lords, so that the no deal option can be stopped. There's a relief. At least for now. That's great news that an unelected house of Lords can go against the electorate and the government the people have voted for, don't you just love democracy ?? ?? The house of Lord's makes up 50% of the British parliamentary democracy. Brexiters said that's what they wanted rather than the unicamral European parliament. Are you saying they have changed their minds now? " Actually I voted leave because I feel we are all in or all out I feel it would be better to have a united EU like the USA is but that will never happen | |||
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"Just lost the vote in the lords, so that the no deal option can be stopped. There's a relief. At least for now. That's great news that an unelected house of Lords can go against the electorate and the government the people have voted for, don't you just love democracy ?? ?? " Uk democratic form of government, like many others around the world, has 2 houses involved in development of new legislation, as you may have seen from the kinky discussions here. The Lords provides detailed scrutiny upon matters passed from the Commons - they'll flesh out Acts, review, discuss and vote on them. They typically must add the details, otherwise new laws and changes wouldn't happen and seek to safeguard the nation from pitfalls and errors. It's Parliaments job to serve the nation's best interest, so if the commons votes to decline the settlement offer, it's appropriate to not firstly take something worse instead or to just vote to accept the offer, which would be a dereliction of duty to constituents. That's the legal duty of representatives and parliament. As others highlight, Brexit campaigners fought hard to retain and use UK sovereignty of parliament, so there are no surprises. | |||
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"...and of course the daily mail is at it again (see their front page tomorrow). High court judges, parliament members, etc, everyone is fair game for slating and being called traitors etc. Yet, that same paper is the one who shouts the loudest and most often about "sovereignty" which makes me think that either they don't really know what "sovereignty" means (just heard the word bouncing around and thought to keep using it because it sounded authoritative) or that they do know what it means but they don't like its application, in which case (in both cases really) *why the hell do you keep shouting about its so called "advantages" every 2 minutes?!*. I'm starting to suspect that to daily mail "sovereignty" is actually a synonym to "tory dictatorship". Maybe they'll wake up at some point and realise that we actually have *democracy* (another word they invoke only when it suits them, i.e. referendum result). *yaaaawn* "Democracy doesn't apply to the House of Lords though they are all unelected peers, going against the will of the British people as expressed in the referendum result and they are going against the will of the democratically elected House of Commons. | |||
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"...and of course the daily mail is at it again (see their front page tomorrow). High court judges, parliament members, etc, everyone is fair game for slating and being called traitors etc. Yet, that same paper is the one who shouts the loudest and most often about "sovereignty" which makes me think that either they don't really know what "sovereignty" means (just heard the word bouncing around and thought to keep using it because it sounded authoritative) or that they do know what it means but they don't like its application, in which case (in both cases really) *why the hell do you keep shouting about its so called "advantages" every 2 minutes?!*. I'm starting to suspect that to daily mail "sovereignty" is actually a synonym to "tory dictatorship". Maybe they'll wake up at some point and realise that we actually have *democracy* (another word they invoke only when it suits them, i.e. referendum result). *yaaaawn*
Democracy doesn't apply to the House of Lords though they are all unelected peers, going against the will of the British people as expressed in the referendum result and they are going against the will of the democratically elected House of Commons. "again centy... you do realise that what the Lords voted on yesterday was to give the House of commons the final say on any brexit deal don't you? I thought you were for bringing control back to the UK, or is it only the type of control that you like?  | |||
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"...and of course the daily mail is at it again (see their front page tomorrow). High court judges, parliament members, etc, everyone is fair game for slating and being called traitors etc. Yet, that same paper is the one who shouts the loudest and most often about "sovereignty" which makes me think that either they don't really know what "sovereignty" means (just heard the word bouncing around and thought to keep using it because it sounded authoritative) or that they do know what it means but they don't like its application, in which case (in both cases really) *why the hell do you keep shouting about its so called "advantages" every 2 minutes?!*. I'm starting to suspect that to daily mail "sovereignty" is actually a synonym to "tory dictatorship". Maybe they'll wake up at some point and realise that we actually have *democracy* (another word they invoke only when it suits them, i.e. referendum result). *yaaaawn*
Democracy doesn't apply to the House of Lords though they are all unelected peers, going against the will of the British people as expressed in the referendum result and they are going against the will of the democratically elected House of Commons. "I thought it went without saying but democracy in this country is parliamentary. House of Lords is half of parliament. You cannot respect one half and not the other because you just don't agree with them. It doesn't work that way in civilised societies I'm afraid. If we just had democracy, we wouldn't need parliament and we'd just have 1000 referendums a day for the public to decide on everything. | |||
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"...and of course the daily mail is at it again (see their front page tomorrow). High court judges, parliament members, etc, everyone is fair game for slating and being called traitors etc. Yet, that same paper is the one who shouts the loudest and most often about "sovereignty" which makes me think that either they don't really know what "sovereignty" means (just heard the word bouncing around and thought to keep using it because it sounded authoritative) or that they do know what it means but they don't like its application, in which case (in both cases really) *why the hell do you keep shouting about its so called "advantages" every 2 minutes?!*. I'm starting to suspect that to daily mail "sovereignty" is actually a synonym to "tory dictatorship". Maybe they'll wake up at some point and realise that we actually have *democracy* (another word they invoke only when it suits them, i.e. referendum result). *yaaaawn*
Democracy doesn't apply to the House of Lords though they are all unelected peers, going against the will of the British people as expressed in the referendum result and they are going against the will of the democratically elected House of Commons.
again centy... you do realise that what the Lords voted on yesterday was to give the House of commons the final say on any brexit deal don't you?
I thought you were for bringing control back to the UK, or is it only the type of control that you like? "Who are you trying to kid Fabio? You know full well the vast majority of Lords are swivel eyed Remainers and they are trying anything and everything to either delay or block Brexit. You (and they) are fooling no one. Some of them have even been honest enough to openly admit they are attempting to block Brexit (Lord Adonis), the public who voted by majority to leave can see what they are upto. | |||
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"...and of course the daily mail is at it again (see their front page tomorrow). High court judges, parliament members, etc, everyone is fair game for slating and being called traitors etc. Yet, that same paper is the one who shouts the loudest and most often about "sovereignty" which makes me think that either they don't really know what "sovereignty" means (just heard the word bouncing around and thought to keep using it because it sounded authoritative) or that they do know what it means but they don't like its application, in which case (in both cases really) *why the hell do you keep shouting about its so called "advantages" every 2 minutes?!*. I'm starting to suspect that to daily mail "sovereignty" is actually a synonym to "tory dictatorship". Maybe they'll wake up at some point and realise that we actually have *democracy* (another word they invoke only when it suits them, i.e. referendum result). *yaaaawn*
Democracy doesn't apply to the House of Lords though they are all unelected peers, going against the will of the British people as expressed in the referendum result and they are going against the will of the democratically elected House of Commons.
again centy... you do realise that what the Lords voted on yesterday was to give the House of commons the final say on any brexit deal don't you?
I thought you were for bringing control back to the UK, or is it only the type of control that you like?
Who are you trying to kid Fabio? You know full well the vast majority of Lords are swivel eyed Remainers and they are trying anything and everything to either delay or block Brexit. You (and they) are fooling no one. Some of them have even been honest enough to openly admit they are attempting to block Brexit (Lord Adonis), the public who voted by majority to leave can see what they are upto. "Good, glad to see they are doing their best and actually voting their conscience and not toeing the party line. And they haven't stopped anything, they've only done what you lot voted for with all your "will of the people" bullshit. | |||
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"This country is a laughing stock .it couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery . I voted brexit and if this doesn't happen I will never vote in anything ever again . this is supposed to be a democratic country and all the remoaners need to accept that once and for all ..the house of lords needs scrapping ." A few things. 1) The Brexit majority is indicative of one thing only. That the country is split down the middle on Brexit. It doesn’t matter which side “won” a tiny majority of anything up to about 5% sends only one message - the EU divisions in the country need addressing. Carrying 50% of those who voted down a path they don’t want to go is political stupidity. 2) This country is a democratic nation and that is why the debate continues. People have the right to talk, to debate and to expect that Parliament and the Govt are held to account. The day that people are stopped from debating and are unable to change their minds is the day that our country ceases to be a Democracy. 3) You want to close the upper Chamber because a right wing media outlet has told you something that you want to believe. I suggest you investigate the truth as to what happened and for balance - take the Brexit issue out of the situation. Imagine for one second the subject was the introduction of laws controlling any and all aspects of sexual behaviour and this draft law came about after a large number of high profile paedophile rings and cases.... “The sitting Govt has issued a draft bill that has passed through the Commons with the help of their extremist right wing supporters - the DUP. The Bill gives the sitting Govt immediate and full control over ALL laws to do with sex and sexuality and it’s opponents fear that minority groups like homosexuals, Swingers, transvestites and fetishists will be unfairly targeted by an ever more right wing Govt. The Upper House has amended the bill and said that such sweeping powers are inappropriate and that the sitting Govt should present to Parliament on each specific law that targets any one group and that Parliament should have a vote on each specific new law so that the Govt cannot simply ride roughshod over its citizens just because they have minority sexual interests.” All that the Lords has done is to do its job and to make sure that the Government ensures that Parliament has the final say. That is EXACTLY how our democracy works and you should be very careful what you wish for by wanting to change the entire legal structure of this nation on the back of one issue. | |||
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"...and of course the daily mail is at it again (see their front page tomorrow). High court judges, parliament members, etc, everyone is fair game for slating and being called traitors etc. Yet, that same paper is the one who shouts the loudest and most often about "sovereignty" which makes me think that either they don't really know what "sovereignty" means (just heard the word bouncing around and thought to keep using it because it sounded authoritative) or that they do know what it means but they don't like its application, in which case (in both cases really) *why the hell do you keep shouting about its so called "advantages" every 2 minutes?!*. I'm starting to suspect that to daily mail "sovereignty" is actually a synonym to "tory dictatorship". Maybe they'll wake up at some point and realise that we actually have *democracy* (another word they invoke only when it suits them, i.e. referendum result). *yaaaawn*
Democracy doesn't apply to the House of Lords though they are all unelected peers, going against the will of the British people as expressed in the referendum result and they are going against the will of the democratically elected House of Commons.
again centy... you do realise that what the Lords voted on yesterday was to give the House of commons the final say on any brexit deal don't you?
I thought you were for bringing control back to the UK, or is it only the type of control that you like?
Who are you trying to kid Fabio? You know full well the vast majority of Lords are swivel eyed Remainers and they are trying anything and everything to either delay or block Brexit. You (and they) are fooling no one. Some of them have even been honest enough to openly admit they are attempting to block Brexit (Lord Adonis), the public who voted by majority to leave can see what they are upto. "Your grasp of the British Parliamentary process, or in fact any parliamentary process seems tenuous. I never put words in your mouth. I ask questions. You generally get angry when you can't answer them or you don't like the answer that you some up with yourself. So let's see how angry you get
What is the purpose of the upper house? What does it do?
Can the upper house prevent any legislation from being passed into law?
Based on it's function, how is democracy affected by the upper chamber being either elected or unelected? | |||
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"This country is a laughing stock .it couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery . I voted brexit and if this doesn't happen I will never vote in anything ever again . this is supposed to be a democratic country and all the remoaners need to accept that once and for all ..the house of lords needs scrapping ." The country voted to leave the EU, yes, and that has been implemented - it will happen on March 29 next year. So your vote is being acted. What no-one was asked, nor told, was what life as a non-member of the EU would look like. It seems to me that is what the Lords are trying to do - to sort through the dogma to find a nonEU role that is in the best interests of the country. Theresa May asked the country for a mandate for her vision of life outside the EU and the public declined to give her one. | |||
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"Reported tonight the new Home secretary Sajid Javid has sided with the Brexiters in cabinet to reject Theresa May's plan for a 'customs partnership'. Where as Amber Rudd was a remainer and sided with Philip Hammond it seems the balance of power has now shifted and Javid has backed David Davis, Boris Johnson, Liam Fox and Michael Gove's plan for a 'customs arrangement'. "What's more important to you Centaur? Cabinet, or Parliament? | |||
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"What *I* cannot understand is why won't they just hold another referendum?! Please hold your fire for a bit, while I explain: A. It's blatantly obvious by now to even the most sceptic of sceptics that the binary choice of the first one was *not* the right way to do it because now you have both sides saying the choices were clear/not clear, people voted to leave/not leave customs union, etc. Give the public ALL available choices (e.g. 1. Leave EU and Customs union fully, 2. Leave EU only, 3. Stay in EU, etc) and also provide a leaflet that explains all the implications of each choice (not that it'd be really needed after all the details/information emerging over the last 2 years, but just to be on the safe side) that each person would have to sign as read (similar to terms and conditions) alongside their vote, so that NO one, from whichever side, can claim or accuse each other that they knew/didn't know what they were voting for. No scaremongering from either side and no unicorns either. Simple, straight facts. Up to the individual to consider what they want to give priority/weight to (N.I. border, international trade, immigration, etc) now that they know a bit more about the process. B. It's now been almost 2 years since the referendum, over 1 year since triggering article 50 and, apart from the fact that everything is moving slower than a snail's pace, our government is not in a strong negotiating position because of all the in-fighting and ambiguity (which, let's be honest, is being used against us) and, in order for the PM to avoid rebellions and threats from either side (as well as various MPs pushing their own personal agendas regardless of whether it's good or bad for the actual country as a whole), only to end up with a fudged up/middle of the road, terrible deal for the country that is NOT fully what either side wants. If they had a CRYSTAL clear mandate, they wouldn't have to have all this arguing now and the backs and forths, etc. They'd simply go to the EU and say "we're all united and in agreement that this is exactly what our country wants and no-one can dispute it, therefore we are leaving/staying and this (insert terms here) is how it's gonna be. Like it? Fine. Don't like it? Thank you and goodbye." ------- I still believe that the result will be "leave" BUT, at least this way, that stupid fighting (both in parliament and out of it) will stop (or it will be *significantly* reduced) and we can get on with our lives. It really saddens me to see intelligent people (even on here) to be fighting and insulting each other when it could all have been avoided by wording the original question in a way that left *absolutely no doubt* either way. There'd be no "I wasn't sure what I was voting for", "Yes, you were!", "We all knew", "No, we didn't!", etc. Just bring our country together again because it'd be a lot less room for argument from either side, thus making the result a lot easier to accept (regardless of whether we agreed with it or not) and, let's be honest, the way things have been going so far, we're only getting more divided, something which the EU is using to their advantage (and, let's be honest, we'd be doing the same thing if roles were reversed). I don't care what happens anymore. I just want the fighting to stop and, in my view, that's the only way to achieve it, as well as make a success of whatever the result is. P.S. I don't expect anyone or, at least, all that many people to read *all* that "thesis". I just wanted to get it off my chest "Voting to leave was just that a vote to leave the EU the single market and the customs union, how fucked up would it be to know give a new vote on each individual thing leave is leave its not a half hearted thing where we pick and choose what we stay apart of. Fuck the remainers they lost end of story it's time for them to grow a set deal with it and move on just like they would if any other relationship ended | |||
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"What *I* cannot understand is why won't they just hold another referendum?! Please hold your fire for a bit, while I explain: A. It's blatantly obvious by now to even the most sceptic of sceptics that the binary choice of the first one was *not* the right way to do it because now you have both sides saying the choices were clear/not clear, people voted to leave/not leave customs union, etc. Give the public ALL available choices (e.g. 1. Leave EU and Customs union fully, 2. Leave EU only, 3. Stay in EU, etc) and also provide a leaflet that explains all the implications of each choice (not that it'd be really needed after all the details/information emerging over the last 2 years, but just to be on the safe side) that each person would have to sign as read (similar to terms and conditions) alongside their vote, so that NO one, from whichever side, can claim or accuse each other that they knew/didn't know what they were voting for. No scaremongering from either side and no unicorns either. Simple, straight facts. Up to the individual to consider what they want to give priority/weight to (N.I. border, international trade, immigration, etc) now that they know a bit more about the process. B. It's now been almost 2 years since the referendum, over 1 year since triggering article 50 and, apart from the fact that everything is moving slower than a snail's pace, our government is not in a strong negotiating position because of all the in-fighting and ambiguity (which, let's be honest, is being used against us) and, in order for the PM to avoid rebellions and threats from either side (as well as various MPs pushing their own personal agendas regardless of whether it's good or bad for the actual country as a whole), only to end up with a fudged up/middle of the road, terrible deal for the country that is NOT fully what either side wants. If they had a CRYSTAL clear mandate, they wouldn't have to have all this arguing now and the backs and forths, etc. They'd simply go to the EU and say "we're all united and in agreement that this is exactly what our country wants and no-one can dispute it, therefore we are leaving/staying and this (insert terms here) is how it's gonna be. Like it? Fine. Don't like it? Thank you and goodbye." ------- I still believe that the result will be "leave" BUT, at least this way, that stupid fighting (both in parliament and out of it) will stop (or it will be *significantly* reduced) and we can get on with our lives. It really saddens me to see intelligent people (even on here) to be fighting and insulting each other when it could all have been avoided by wording the original question in a way that left *absolutely no doubt* either way. There'd be no "I wasn't sure what I was voting for", "Yes, you were!", "We all knew", "No, we didn't!", etc. Just bring our country together again because it'd be a lot less room for argument from either side, thus making the result a lot easier to accept (regardless of whether we agreed with it or not) and, let's be honest, the way things have been going so far, we're only getting more divided, something which the EU is using to their advantage (and, let's be honest, we'd be doing the same thing if roles were reversed). I don't care what happens anymore. I just want the fighting to stop and, in my view, that's the only way to achieve it, as well as make a success of whatever the result is. P.S. I don't expect anyone or, at least, all that many people to read *all* that "thesis". I just wanted to get it off my chest
Voting to leave was just that a vote to leave the EU the single market and the customs union, how fucked up would it be to know give a new vote on each individual thing leave is leave its not a half hearted thing where we pick and choose what we stay apart of. Fuck the remainers they lost end of story it's time for them to grow a set deal with it and move on just like they would if any other relationship ended "Leave is leave? Ha de fucking ha. Of course it's that simple if you have the IQ of a rock.....However, in the real world, the issue is rather more nuanced. If it were as simple as you suggest, this would all have been done and dusted in a couple of months. Meanwhile, less than a year before we leave, it's still a shambles. | |||
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"What *I* cannot understand is why won't they just hold another referendum?! Please hold your fire for a bit, while I explain: (................) P.S. I don't expect anyone or, at least, all that many people to read *all* that "thesis". I just wanted to get it off my chest
Voting to leave was just that a vote to leave the EU the single market and the customs union, how fucked up would it be to know give a new vote on each individual thing leave is leave its not a half hearted thing where we pick and choose what we stay apart of. Fuck the remainers they lost end of story it's time for them to grow a set deal with it and move on just like they would if any other relationship ended "Thank you for exactly proving right the points I was trying to make and why I was making them | |||
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"If the Conservative government, under David Cameron, had more thoroughly prepared for a referendum (which it held largely in order to steal votes from UKIP, at the general election), then this dire situation would be radically different. The government would have known what the UK plan would be, should the public vote more for the 'leave' option(s), which would also have enabled the country to have a similar understanding. The preparation for issuing Article 50 and subsequent negotiations would have been mapped out and UK based or contributing businesses would have had a clearer picture of how businesses would be impacted and able to plan accordingly. As it stands, the government is crawling along, hasn't made much progress on clearly important factors including the Northern Ireland border (should have had the plan communicated pre-referendum) and the impact upon thousands of UK citizens living in Europe etc would have allowed people to manage their lives more easily. People are living in ignorance because that's what the government has and caused - it should be unforgivable. And this is notwithstanding whatever the effects may be, should the sovereign House of Commons vote to accept a negotiated deal. Much of this was and is being caused due to the Conservative party putting emphasis upon trying to remain intact and retaining power - the people and anything else, have come in somewhat behind." I have some sympathy with the government before the referendum. Yes, they should have made contingency plans for the possibility of a leave vote, timelines, negotiation strategies and required outcomes. On the other hand, in doing so, they would have had to admit that there is life outside of the EU, and they would also have had to produce forecasts over 3/5/15 years of what would happen if we stayed in....which they would then have been able to be held accountable for. They would also have had to lay out what exactly they meant by a 'reformed EU'. | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right. "Because. Labour. Never. Did. That. Did. They? | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right. "the imoveable fact is that even with a majority of 47 in the lords, the tory brextremist shitgibbons are still getting a kicking and being schooled on democracy on a regular basis. | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right.
the imoveable fact is that even with a majority of 47 in the lords, the tory brextremist shitgibbons are still getting a kicking and being schooled on democracy on a regular basis. "A pity that you are not being schooled on more eloquent, moderate and appropriate language. | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right.
Because. Labour. Never. Did. That. Did. They?"I don't give a shit who's doing it. It isn't right. Particularly with THE single most important issue our country has faced in 40 years, that will affect every aspect of everyone's lives when it goes wrong. | |||
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"A pity that you are not being schooled on more eloquent, moderate and appropriate language. " get over it snowflake | |||
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"A pity that you are not being schooled on more eloquent, moderate and appropriate language. get over it snowflake" Not all snowflakes are Gammon, but all Gammon are snowflakes. | |||
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"A pity that you are not being schooled on more eloquent, moderate and appropriate language. get over it snowflake Not all snowflakes are Gammon, but all Gammon are snowflakes. "And all people who use the word gammon to describe white people are racists. | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right. "You forgot Theresa May is also going to appoint some new DUP peers as well. | |||
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"A pity that you are not being schooled on more eloquent, moderate and appropriate language. get over it snowflake Not all snowflakes are Gammon, but all Gammon are snowflakes. "If gammon took the time to understand why "gammon" is not a racial slur they would no longer be gammon. The gammon paradox. | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right.
the imoveable fact is that even with a majority of 47 in the lords, the tory brextremist shitgibbons are still getting a kicking and being schooled on democracy on a regular basis. "Schooled on democracy by an unelected chamber full of unelected Lords. There is nothing democratic about it. | |||
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"A pity that you are not being schooled on more eloquent, moderate and appropriate language. get over it snowflake Not all snowflakes are Gammon, but all Gammon are snowflakes.
And all people who use the word gammon to describe white people are racists. "Thanks for making my point | |||
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"The peers are quite within their rights to challenge this. Theresa May went to the country demanding a strong mandate for her vision of Brexit. The country refused. So the only mandate is the one from the referendum - to leave the EU. That happens with Article 50. Beyond that, no-one has a mandate for anything. So there is nothing unconstitutional about what the Lords are doing, because the government does not have a mandate from a winning manifesto. " The unelected Lords are hopelessly out of touch with public opinion in the country and also hopelessly out of touch with the democratically elected House of Commons. 52% voted Leave in the EU referendum. Then at the general election the Tories were the party elected with the largest number of MP's, they make a majority teaming up with the DUP, both parties support Brexit. The official opposition being the Labour party also had Brexit in their general election manifesto, so a whopping 85% of the vote at the general election went to parties with Brexit manifestos. There is overwhelming mandate from the public in both the referendum result and the general election vote to complete Brexit. | |||
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"The peers are quite within their rights to challenge this. Theresa May went to the country demanding a strong mandate for her vision of Brexit. The country refused. So the only mandate is the one from the referendum - to leave the EU. That happens with Article 50. Beyond that, no-one has a mandate for anything. So there is nothing unconstitutional about what the Lords are doing, because the government does not have a mandate from a winning manifesto. The unelected Lords are hopelessly out of touch with public opinion in the country and also hopelessly out of touch with the democratically elected House of Commons. 52% voted Leave in the EU referendum. Then at the general election the Tories were the party elected with the largest number of MP's, they make a majority teaming up with the DUP, both parties support Brexit. The official opposition being the Labour party also had Brexit in their general election manifesto, so a whopping 85% of the vote at the general election went to parties with Brexit manifestos. There is overwhelming mandate from the public in both the referendum result and the general election vote to complete Brexit. " To complete *a* Brexit. Not specifically a hard Brexit. It exists to be a check and balance against the worst excesses of government. And in this case it has done so. It's not there to listen to the "will of the people" bullshit and the Daily Mail. You're just bitter as it's not doing what you want. | |||
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"The peers are quite within their rights to challenge this. Theresa May went to the country demanding a strong mandate for her vision of Brexit. The country refused. So the only mandate is the one from the referendum - to leave the EU. That happens with Article 50. Beyond that, no-one has a mandate for anything. So there is nothing unconstitutional about what the Lords are doing, because the government does not have a mandate from a winning manifesto. The unelected Lords are hopelessly out of touch with public opinion in the country and also hopelessly out of touch with the democratically elected House of Commons. 52% voted Leave in the EU referendum. Then at the general election the Tories were the party elected with the largest number of MP's, they make a majority teaming up with the DUP, both parties support Brexit. The official opposition being the Labour party also had Brexit in their general election manifesto, so a whopping 85% of the vote at the general election went to parties with Brexit manifestos. There is overwhelming mandate from the public in both the referendum result and the general election vote to complete Brexit. " Total deep throat bollocks as per usual eh 
Switching a 52 / 48 vote result into an 85 / 15 delusional alternative truth
You just can't help yourself can you
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right.
the imoveable fact is that even with a majority of 47 in the lords, the tory brextremist shitgibbons are still getting a kicking and being schooled on democracy on a regular basis.
Schooled on democracy by an unelected chamber full of unelected Lords. There is nothing democratic about it. "Which is better, British parliamentary democracy with its bicameral system, or the EU system of MEPs in a unicameral system? It seems funny all these brexiters who cried out that they were voting for parliamentary sovereignty, yet bitch and moan and want it overthrown when it doesn't go their way. The very same Brexiters who demanded British justice in British courts by British judges, who then get smeared as traitors for making the judgements they are paid to make. | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right. "DUP bribe, the sequel: Now at the HoL near you. Hopefully she won't pay them lords a billion too. | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right.
the imoveable fact is that even with a majority of 47 in the lords, the tory brextremist shitgibbons are still getting a kicking and being schooled on democracy on a regular basis.
Schooled on democracy by an unelected chamber full of unelected Lords. There is nothing democratic about it.
Which is better, British parliamentary democracy with its bicameral system, or the EU system of MEPs in a unicameral system?
It seems funny all these brexiters who cried out that they were voting for parliamentary sovereignty, yet bitch and moan and want it overthrown when it doesn't go their way. The very same Brexiters who demanded British justice in British courts by British judges, who then get smeared as traitors for making the judgements they are paid to make."Couldn't agree more, yet they will whine and splutter that this isn't the case... It's all available to read on these forums. | |||
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"And it now seems that TM is appointing a load of Tory peers this weekend before sending this bill back to the upper chamber. This. Isn't. Right.
the imoveable fact is that even with a majority of 47 in the lords, the tory brextremist shitgibbons are still getting a kicking and being schooled on democracy on a regular basis.
Schooled on democracy by an unelected chamber full of unelected Lords. There is nothing democratic about it.
Which is better, British parliamentary democracy with its bicameral system, or the EU system of MEPs in a unicameral system?
It seems funny all these brexiters who cried out that they were voting for parliamentary sovereignty, yet bitch and moan and want it overthrown when it doesn't go their way. The very same Brexiters who demanded British justice in British courts by British judges, who then get smeared as traitors for making the judgements they are paid to make."You're wasting your breath. It's blatantly obvious by now that most brexiteers don't seem to have a clue what "sovereignty" actually means. To them it's just a word they heard being thrown around in the Leave campaign and they're just parroting it because it sounded authoritative. If they actually knew what it meant, they wouldn't be doing/saying all the things you mentioned above and, in effect, dissing the very principle. | |||
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" Your grasp of the British Parliamentary process, or in fact any parliamentary process seems tenuous. I never put words in your mouth. I ask questions. You generally get angry when you can't answer them or you don't like the answer that you come up with yourself. So let's see how angry you get
What is the purpose of the upper house? What does it do?
Can the upper house prevent any legislation from being passed into law?
Based on it's function, how is democracy affected by the upper chamber being either elected or unelected?"Centaur and chums still unable to answer this? If past experience is an indicator Centaur will insult me in some way, claim that he replied in another thread and avoid answering
Any other supporters of "taking our country back" and protecting our "sovereignty" want to give it a go? | |||
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"Hardly anything has been agreed yet! " What has been agreed is that “official” policy of both Tory party AND Labour Party is that we leave the EU, we leave THE customs union and the single market. (In both manifestos). What hasn’t been agreed is WTF that actually results in as neither party seem to be clear on that! | |||
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