FabSwingers.com forum: How best to deal with Russia

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

How should we react to the Russians use of chemical weapons here.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You tell us as it hasn't been proven yet that it was

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"You tell us as it hasn't been proven yet that it was "

The PM seems to think that it has.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Hit them in the pocket.

Putin and his cronies are worth billions.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If I remember rightly we had a pm telling us about WMD'S in Iraq

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andACouple
over a year ago

glasgow

"If I remember rightly we had a pm telling us about WMD'S in Iraq "

If I remember rightly you bolted from another thread after making false claims

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What did I bottle it from?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *igsteve43Man
over a year ago

derby

Well we could do nothing likecorbyn would

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How should we react to the Russians use of chemical weapons here."

ideally be able to prove without doubt that Russia was directly involved would be a good start

Her announcement this afternoon was an embarrassment, as was the way our politicians debated in public for the World to see

Looks like Corbyn dug a nice deep hole for himself

. and I bet all sides wish they never cut the defence budget looking back all these years

The UK's defence credibility is plummeting day by day

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Be wary of politicians presenting as judge and jury.

What May said is that the poison came from Russia.

That’s plausible. Beyond that?

I read that this person gave away the names of 300 agents.

That’s a lot of potential suspects.

Will the intelligence agencies share that info with PC Plod?

Are the police in charge here?

I guess there must be a working protocol.

This promises to be an interesting insight into the UK’s influence in Europe and beyond. How many other countries will wish to politicise a crime committed in the UK?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"How should we react to the Russians use of chemical weapons here.

ideally be able to prove without doubt that Russia was directly involved would be a good start

Her announcement this afternoon was an embarrassment, as was the way our politicians debated in public for the World to see

Looks like Corbyn dug a nice deep hole for himself

. and I bet all sides wish they never cut the defence budget looking back all these years

The UK's defence credibility is plummeting day by day"

I wonder if some people are wishing they didn't vote open a huge black hole in the defence budget? Or to undermine our intelligence capability and ability to share information?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

"You tell us as it hasn't been proven yet that it was "

May said in Parliament today "“Russia’s record of conducting state sponsored assassinations and our assessment that Russia views some defectors as legitimate targets for assassination, the government has concluded that it is highly likely that Russia was responsible for the act against Sergei and Yulia Skripal.”

The Prime Minister said the poison belonged to a group of nerve agents known as “novichok”, adding: “Either this was a direct act by the Russian state against our country. Or the Russian government lost control of this potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed to get it into the hands of others.”

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

"If I remember rightly we had a pm telling us about WMD'S in Iraq "

Iraq did have chemical weapons, they used them during the war with Iran, and also at least twice after the first Gulf War against their own people.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So highly likely means guilty now lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes they did but I think you'll find they got rid of them a long time before we invaded them with the Americans and over throw Sadam or did you miss the fact that they lied to the public about the invasion of Iraq

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

"So highly likely means guilty now lol"

"...poison belonged to a group of nerve agents known as “novichok”, ..."

These are a new, very advanced, type of nerve agent that uses two chemicals, both of which are completely harmless on their own, but lethal when combined. This particular type were developed by Russia.

Nerve agents are not easy to produce, or store, and cant be knocked up in a shed, and this new type are even harder to make.

The govt would be very cautious about pointing the finger without hard evidence.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

"Yes they did but I think you'll find they got rid of them a long time before we invaded them with the Americans and over throw Sadam or did you miss the fact that they lied to the public about the invasion of Iraq "

Theres a good chance that they just sealed the chemicals in drums, drove them out into the desert and buried them... all they wanted was for the International community to come in, find nothing, and make the USA and UK look like proper plums.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"So highly likely means guilty now lol

"...poison belonged to a group of nerve agents known as “novichok”, ..."

Nerve agents are not easy to produce, or store, and cant be knocked up in a shed, and this new type are even harder to make.

The govt would be very cautious about pointing the finger without hard evidence."

Correct the government knows the full consequences of calling Russia out as the culprit.Whats more surprising is that some here believe Russia and Putin over our prime minister and our secret service.They are basically saying the PM is is a liar.Dangerous times and it smacks of tinfoil conspiracy fuckwittery.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The first man to interrogate Saddam Hussein after his capture by US forces in 2003 has said it quickly became clear he had not developed weapons of mass destruction.

Former CIA analyst John Nixon was tasked with questioning the Iraqi dictator after he was found hiding in a cave in December 2003.

He said “all the White House wanted to know” was if there was any evidence that Hussein was developing weapons of mass destruction.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Our government lies to us if you find that hard to believe then there is no point discussing this anymore

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They never called them out only said highly likely that's not the same thing

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The largest chemical attack against any civilian population ever recorded was against the Kurds in 1988 and this was done by Saddam and the Iraqi military.Its well documented that thousands died in Halabja .

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Am not disputing the fact Iraq used them before just that they still had them

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the Russian government are doing us a favour by continually denying their involvement: had they not, they would have forced the UK into action, action which we neither have the appepitite for, nor the funding - especially whilst we, the EU, are fighting amongst ourselves.

So long as we don’t know for sure that it was the Russian government, we look incompetent. If we say we know it was them, not only are we incompetent, but also weak due to our inaction.

I don’t envy Theresa May’s position.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"So highly likely means guilty now lol"

Are you waiting for a signed confession from Putin?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

It's a nerve agent specific to Russia. The Foreign Office have summoned the Russian Ambassador and asked him to respond by tomorrow night, just how that nerve agent ended up in Salisbury.

He will probably come back with some story that some was stolen by Russian gangsters blah blah blah. It's how the game is played.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

The truth is short of all out war which we would lose. What can you do?

Freeze some assets? Chuck a few diplomats out in a move that would simply go Tit for tat.

Boycott the World Cup attempt to shame them in front of the world?

The fact is they simply don’t give a fuck.

They have been using Nerve gas in this way for years several prominent Chechen warlords were offed in this way.

Short of a Cold War that’s possibly already started how you gonna make a dent?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm sick of spending bleeding billions on nukes we never fucking use!.

I say nuke the fuckers and while we're at it let's do Brussels as well

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"The truth is short of all out war which we would lose. What can you do?

Freeze some assets? Chuck a few diplomats out in a move that would simply go Tit for tat.

Boycott the World Cup attempt to shame them in front of the world?

The fact is they simply don’t give a fuck.

They have been using Nerve gas in this way for years several prominent Chechen warlords were offed in this way.

Short of a Cold War that’s possibly already started how you gonna make a dent?

Reasonable summary.

It is also, of course, impossible to prove that the FSB did this. That's why organisations like this exist. The message has been sent very clearly that they can get you anywhere.

Sanctions are already fully deployed except that we love Russian money so much that we really don't want to turn of the taps to property sales and financial investment. Of course, leaving the EU with all of the opportunities that provides we'll be free to tell them to stuff their money because...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

the first thing they made do is what the french did after they tried to tamper in their election and revoke the license of RT to broadcast.....

they could go to the EU and ask for travel bans and the freezing of financial assets of top level russians.

other than that you are only going to see top level explusions....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Man up you bunch of soft bastards.

Your like a bunch of cucks sucking on Putin's cock

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

the first good sign is that the british and the french are meeting on this issue as they have both had the same issue.....

it is starts being a joint response then thats where it gets interesting...

also..... for those people who think trump wants a special relationship with the uk, his administration has refused to criticise russia in the whitehouse press briefing today.....

also if i was one of the 10 russians who was part of the "anna chapman" swop of which he was part of.... i think i would be sleeping very uneasy tonight......

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If this was an English agent that had been giving away state secrets and living in Russia, then I suspect we'd all say he got what he deserved, so do nothing just nothing, Putin doesn't give a fuck because if he did it wouldn't of happened in the first place

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

"The first man to interrogate Saddam Hussein after his capture by US forces in 2003 has said it quickly became clear he had not developed weapons of mass destruction.

Former CIA analyst John Nixon was tasked with questioning the Iraqi dictator after he was found hiding in a cave in December 2003.

He said “all the White House wanted to know” was if there was any evidence that Hussein was developing weapons of mass destruction."

Yuh, this being the same Saddam Hussein who used them against the Iranian Army?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm sick of spending bleeding billions on nukes we never fucking use!.

I say nuke the fuckers and while we're at it let's do Brussels as well

Thank God your not in charge!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the first thing they made do is what the french did after they tried to tamper in their election and revoke the license of RT to broadcast.....

they could go to the EU and ask for travel bans and the freezing of financial assets of top level russians.

other than that you are only going to see top level explusions...."

Gas gas gas! This is what happens when you rely on foreign energy. The whole of Europe is using Russian gas!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm sick of spending bleeding billions on nukes we never fucking use!.

I say nuke the fuckers and while we're at it let's do Brussels as well

Thank God your not in charge!"
.

Obviously I'm not talking about loads of them, just a small tactical one, maybe one of those unheard of towns in the south, there's fuck all there anyhow

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the first thing they made do is what the french did after they tried to tamper in their election and revoke the license of RT to broadcast.....

they could go to the EU and ask for travel bans and the freezing of financial assets of top level russians.

other than that you are only going to see top level explusions....

Gas gas gas! This is what happens when you rely on foreign energy. The whole of Europe is using Russian gas! "
.

Yea, thank goodness for that pipeline from Qatar (thatnsor of mass Islamic terrorism) to the Mediterranean (via Syria) what do you mean Syria aren't keen, we'll see about that.

Yea good old pure Arabian gas that should keep us safe in our beds without feeling the need to destabilise an already unstable bunch of religious nut jobs

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So highly likely means guilty now lol

"...poison belonged to a group of nerve agents known as “novichok”, ..."

Nerve agents are not easy to produce, or store, and cant be knocked up in a shed, and this new type are even harder to make.

The govt would be very cautious about pointing the finger without hard evidence.

its not too long ago many on this forum were calling all politicians / MP's ? MSP's Liars, branding all together saying none can tell the truth.

one small event and some are now worshiping the feet of May (our beloved PM).

Still no direct evidence

If this if what one or two persons can do without being caught, imagine a regiment of these people.

We as in Britain are stepping into a very nasty situation with still no idea or proof of who was behind this act.

our government is being led on by media organisations trying to cash in and make a buck whether the news is factual or not.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"someone" has been watching RT again......

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Evidence?

Proof?

if we have it, then fine let the government start their sanctions, and then all else that goes with these sanctions including Russian retaliation, but if no proof, then its gonna be one nasty situation.

perhaps a day to stay home and get the Lee Precision Classic Turret Press out

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

""someone" has been watching RT again......

Russians have done an amazing job and nobody can deny it!

Meddling in elections, state funded tv, websites etc are far superior than west. Once they get you hooked and channel you down a road they have won the heart & mind.

In the old days it was just good old fashioned propaganda now it's a sophisticated machine. Putin has done well the rest of the world are fire fighting and haven't got a solution? France at least stopped the RT license.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Silence from the Yanks on this is a warning !

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

Apparently we have the total support of the EU.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"How should we react to the Russians use of chemical weapons here."

Take back empty property owned by Russians. Freeze the assets of people like Abramovich.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Whatever happens it will have a much more global impact if we invite Russian and other experts to verify the chemical used was of Russian origin..

That in itself is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt but may go some way to quelling the line coming out of the kremlin on this..

He said she said never really works..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

What did we do after the radioactive tea? Or the brolly?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"What did we do after the radioactive tea? Or the brolly? "

its a fair point, maybe the response to those could have been handled differently in building support but then again it's not like we have never played dirty tricks ourselves..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Whatever happens it will have a much more global impact if we invite Russian and other experts to verify the chemical used was of Russian origin..

That in itself is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt but may go some way to quelling the line coming out of the kremlin on this..

He said she said never really works.. "

Russia has requested access to samples of the nerve agent used in the attack and they are entitled to request this, same as we are duty bound to provide a sample.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Whatever happens it will have a much more global impact if we invite Russian and other experts to verify the chemical used was of Russian origin..

That in itself is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt but may go some way to quelling the line coming out of the kremlin on this..

He said she said never really works..

Russia has requested access to samples of the nerve agent used in the attack and they are entitled to request this, same as we are duty bound to provide a sample."

They like any other nation similarly named were bound to do so..

Whether they will accept the veracity of the material is another issue..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad? "

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Whatever happens it will have a much more global impact if we invite Russian and other experts to verify the chemical used was of Russian origin..

That in itself is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt but may go some way to quelling the line coming out of the kremlin on this..

He said she said never really works..

Russia has requested access to samples of the nerve agent used in the attack and they are entitled to request this, same as we are duty bound to provide a sample."

funny enough they went down the same route when mh17 was shot down by the russian... and then they went on the obstruct the investigation at every turn

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course .."

guess no ones considered a double "attempted suicide" Sergei Skripal, 66, and his daughter Yulia, 33 have thought "fuck this" we've had enough of this World, lets leave it together and kick up some havoc at same time

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad? "

You mean like the way we assassinated Kim Philby, guy Burgess, Donald MacLean and their families and intensified the cold war. Oh yes that's right we did not although the USSR did execute all the agents they betrayed.

I think you need to remember that Vlad was a KGB Interrogation Officer who rose to the rank of Colonel and almost certainly has tortured people to death and most certainly has overseen many executions (there is a reason his eyes look so dead) he is a coldblooded calculated killer.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

There is no irrefutable evidence that an intelligence agency conducted an assassination?

Unbelievable. Such incompetence from our government. How could we trust them with Brexit if they can get this so wrong?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"There is no irrefutable evidence that an intelligence agency conducted an assassination?

Unbelievable. Such incompetence from our government. How could we trust them with Brexit if they can get this so wrong?

There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Tell us have any been found in Iraq yet?

How could we ever trust anything Blair ever said again (on Brexit) after he got that so wrong?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"There is no irrefutable evidence that an intelligence agency conducted an assassination?

Unbelievable. Such incompetence from our government. How could we trust them with Brexit if they can get this so wrong?

There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Tell us have any been found in Iraq yet?

How could we ever trust anything Blair ever said again (on Brexit) after he got that so wrong? "

Your right on the lack of WMD as was claimed but Blair is not involved in the brexit shambles..

keep up..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"There is no irrefutable evidence that an intelligence agency conducted an assassination?

Unbelievable. Such incompetence from our government. How could we trust them with Brexit if they can get this so wrong?

There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Tell us have any been found in Iraq yet?

How could we ever trust anything Blair ever said again (on Brexit) after he got that so wrong? "

Interesting, but irrelevant.

Sounds like a deliberate distraction

Is it most likely that the Russian state attempted to murder a British citizen and his daughter on British soil and almost killed a British police officer.

Probably alright because it was shirt off Putin. That's what "strong" leaders do. Right?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm still for a tactical nuke but you cucks need to man up.

I mean cmon ... What's the worse that could happen

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

There is little we can do in reality,they are only harming there own people,we are not angels,we kill people in the middle east with drones,not much different really

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nail em up I say

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"There is no irrefutable evidence that an intelligence agency conducted an assassination?

Unbelievable. Such incompetence from our government. How could we trust them with Brexit if they can get this so wrong?

There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Tell us have any been found in Iraq yet?

How could we ever trust anything Blair ever said again (on Brexit) after he got that so wrong?

Your right on the lack of WMD as was claimed but Blair is not involved in the brexit shambles..

keep up..

Tell Blair he's not involved then as he seems to have missed the memo and keeps attempting to get involved.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Laser guided drone strike.... If it's good enough for Muslims it's good enough for Russians

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"There is no irrefutable evidence that an intelligence agency conducted an assassination?

Unbelievable. Such incompetence from our government. How could we trust them with Brexit if they can get this so wrong?

There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Tell us have any been found in Iraq yet?

How could we ever trust anything Blair ever said again (on Brexit) after he got that so wrong?

Your right on the lack of WMD as was claimed but Blair is not involved in the brexit shambles..

keep up..

Tell Blair he's not involved then as he seems to have missed the memo and keeps attempting to get involved. "

he wont answer my calls..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"There is no irrefutable evidence that an intelligence agency conducted an assassination?

Unbelievable. Such incompetence from our government. How could we trust them with Brexit if they can get this so wrong?

There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Tell us have any been found in Iraq yet?

How could we ever trust anything Blair ever said again (on Brexit) after he got that so wrong?

Interesting, but irrelevant.

Sounds like a deliberate distraction

Is it most likely that the Russian state attempted to murder a British citizen and his daughter on British soil and almost killed a British police officer.

Probably alright because it was shirt off Putin. That's what "strong" leaders do. Right?"

'Most likely' it was the Russians as in the same way it was 'most likely' there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? You swallow anything the establishment and the mainstream media spoon feed you, even though you've been fooled and had the wool pulled over your eyes in the past.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just when we should be rounding up Russians and machine gunning them we break out into a political argument.... Yea that should teach them ruskies

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"There is no irrefutable evidence that an intelligence agency conducted an assassination?

Unbelievable. Such incompetence from our government. How could we trust them with Brexit if they can get this so wrong?

There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Tell us have any been found in Iraq yet?

How could we ever trust anything Blair ever said again (on Brexit) after he got that so wrong?

Interesting, but irrelevant.

Sounds like a deliberate distraction

Is it most likely that the Russian state attempted to murder a British citizen and his daughter on British soil and almost killed a British police officer.

Probably alright because it was shirt off Putin. That's what "strong" leaders do. Right?

So all the positive news that the government gives about Brexit is to be believed.

No negative government opinion on Russian state actions is true though.

What a conundrum. What to believe and what not to believe

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

I think that if Putin wanted to have someone assassinated, then using nerve agents would not be as effective as continually cold calling the victim with "PPI mis-sold" calls to the point of causing a loss of the will to live.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

Come midnight recall our ambassador and all Russian diplomatic staff, severing all diplomatic ties. Expel all Russians that do not have political refugee status and size on behalf of the Crown all property held in the UK or by UK institutions owned by the Russian State or any Russian citizen that is not protected by a grant of political asylum by ourselves or one of our allies.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Come midnight recall our ambassador and all Russian diplomatic staff, severing all diplomatic ties. Expel all Russians that do not have political refugee status and size on behalf of the Crown all property held in the UK or by UK institutions owned by the Russian State or any Russian citizen that is not protected by a grant of political asylum by ourselves or one of our allies. "

Then starts the process of British businesses and citizens being victimized.

BP holds a 49% stake in Rosneft.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkywife1981Couple
over a year ago

A town near you

Why didn't the Russians just blow up the house the victims lived in and make it look like faulty wiring or gas leak, why not pay some gangsters to make it look like a mugging gone wrong, or tamper with the brakes on the car, why use a method as they did that would likely be traced back to them, because they dont give a flying f**k who knows or what the consequences would be it seems.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Why didn't the Russians just blow up the house the victims lived in and make it look like faulty wiring or gas leak, why not pay some gangsters to make it look like a mugging gone wrong, or tamper with the brakes on the car, why use a method as they did that would likely be traced back to them, because they dont give a flying f**k who knows or what the consequences would be it seems. "

They want everyone to know that they did it but not be able to prove it.

They really don't give a flying f***.

It's how they conduct warfare.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Then starts the process of British businesses and citizens being victimized.

BP holds a 49% stake in Rosneft.

As far as BP is concerned that is not a problem (see the link I posted earlier today) as the only thing British in BP is the name. But look on the bright side, Donny will get to find out exactly how easy trade wars are because the majority of 'British' business that trade with Russia is by businesses owned by US corporations.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nothing at all will happen because the UK is not what it was, were now a nation of cock sucking pacifists with a penchant for not offending anybody at all ever!.

The Russians are pissing there pants laughing at what a bunch of arse wipe soft cunts we are

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

Sometimes the globalisation of business by US corporations can have unexpected positive spin-offs.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That's multiculturalism for yer

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Honestly I've never heard so much nonsense talked on here for ages, it's public it's how they roll, it's how Putin does it, it's Russian poison.

What a load of crap.

Here's a fucking thought, why don't we actually prove it was the Russians, let's investigate the CCTV,the eye witnesses, the guys background and a fucking motive.

You know... Like other crimes.

And oooo I don't know, take it through a court.

Coz the same people who bang on and fucking on about independent judiciarys seem to be pretty bloody keen to forgo them in pinning any old shit on Russia??.

Let's see what have we got, a chemical agent developed in Russia 30 years ago (big fucking deal) an ex spy who's been administered it... That's it and somehow WERE demanding that Russia prove its innocence by midnight or else.

Bejesus if this was a Hollywood movie I'd have walked out already

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Honestly I've never heard so much nonsense talked on here for ages, it's public it's how they roll, it's how Putin does it, it's Russian poison.

What a load of crap.

Here's a fucking thought, why don't we actually prove it was the Russians, let's investigate the CCTV,the eye witnesses, the guys background and a fucking motive.

You know... Like other crimes.

And oooo I don't know, take it through a court.

Coz the same people who bang on and fucking on about independent judiciarys seem to be pretty bloody keen to forgo them in pinning any old shit on Russia??.

Bejesus if this was a Hollywood movie I'd have walked out already"

What's your actual point?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Man the fuck up and go to war with them. Send your army, planes and warships.

Oh wait, can you guys defend yourselves without us?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

I have just been listening/watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir2iVR6LcoE

According to CNN Russian State media is boasting that after Rex Tillerson said Russia was obviously involved in the chemical attack in Salisbury Putin rang Trump and now Tillerson is fired. What a show of absolute contempt for us and the US. Russia is openly saying they can and will do whatever they like wherever they like and nobody can stop them because they control the White House and we are incapable of protecting ourselves.

I seem to remember learning that one Adolf Hitler and the German State had a similar attitude in the 1930's and that during the 1930's the Tory government of the UK also followed an austerity policy and cut our armed forces to the bone. One big difference is there is no wealthy and philanthropic private citizen stepping up to fund the building of a modern Spitfire...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"Man the fuck up and go to war with them. Send your army, planes and warships.

Oh wait, can you guys defend yourselves without us?"

No, we're not allowed.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Honestly I've never heard so much nonsense talked on here for ages, it's public it's how they roll, it's how Putin does it, it's Russian poison.

What a load of crap.

Here's a fucking thought, why don't we actually prove it was the Russians, let's investigate the CCTV,the eye witnesses, the guys background and a fucking motive.

You know... Like other crimes.

And oooo I don't know, take it through a court.

Coz the same people who bang on and fucking on about independent judiciarys seem to be pretty bloody keen to forgo them in pinning any old shit on Russia??.

Bejesus if this was a Hollywood movie I'd have walked out already

What's your actual point?"
.

Your jumping to conclusions.

It looks like them for sure, but saying this is how they do it and there not bothered is not actually a motive.. Same as a poison they invented 30 years ago doesn't actually mean it was there's

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea.. "

are you saying he would not have contacts to get this, that is indeed if it ever existed in the first place !

seems the UK government is not playing by the rules, refusing to share access to the chemical substance used in the attack.

if indeed they have this substance

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Looks like the regular putin fanboy are trying to pretend that this hasn't even happened. They live in a post truth world.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Looks like the regular putin fanboy are trying to pretend that this hasn't even happened. They live in a post truth world. "

not at all

Just looking for proof, unless of course you believe every word of your MP's

Do you believe all that your wonderful Mrs May tells you?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Next she will be saying perhaps its better for us to stay in EU, safer

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

perhaps this is the planned lead up

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have just been listening/watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir2iVR6LcoE

Do you believe everything Russian State Media says?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea..

are you saying he would not have contacts to get this, that is indeed if it ever existed in the first place !

seems the UK government is not playing by the rules, refusing to share access to the chemical substance used in the attack.

if indeed they have this substance

Who knows what his contacts were, I would imagine he of all people might have known of its existence had he gone down your less than sensible idea to kill his daughter and commit suicide to discredit putin..

What possible positives do you think the government may have listed in making up the substance as the cause?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea..

are you saying he would not have contacts to get this, that is indeed if it ever existed in the first place !

seems the UK government is not playing by the rules, refusing to share access to the chemical substance used in the attack.

if indeed they have this substance

What possible positives do you think the government may have listed in making up the substance as the cause?

hey, im open to all facts, but they need to be facts

Russia is not playing ball, but neither are "we" the UK, not only have we not shared this substance information with Russia, but any other country.

If this is a genuine assassination, then we should be looking to employ the assassin, he/she has sure stirred up a full hornets nest of shit, and quietly walked away for a cuppa whilst we have all forces running around like headless chickens once the incident has passed by

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea..

are you saying he would not have contacts to get this, that is indeed if it ever existed in the first place !

seems the UK government is not playing by the rules, refusing to share access to the chemical substance used in the attack.

if indeed they have this substance

What possible positives do you think the government may have listed in making up the substance as the cause?

hey, im open to all facts, but they need to be facts

Russia is not playing ball, but neither are "we" the UK, not only have we not shared this substance information with Russia, but any other country.

Putin wins on every count with this, he shows that Russia will kill its traitors where ever they are and if we now impose more sanctions etc he is the strong leader that an already hated by many country needs..

and just before a so called democratic election..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea..

are you saying he would not have contacts to get this, that is indeed if it ever existed in the first place !

seems the UK government is not playing by the rules, refusing to share access to the chemical substance used in the attack.

if indeed they have this substance

What possible positives do you think the government may have listed in making up the substance as the cause?

hey, im open to all facts, but they need to be facts

Russia is not playing ball, but neither are "we" the UK, not only have we not shared this substance information with Russia, but any other country.

and just before a so called democratic election..

Yep, have to agree. I reckon it was a bit daft to give russia adaft deadline till midnight.

Made me think of 'high noon', may at one end of the street and putin at the other, 6 shooters hung low... Pathetic!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea..

are you saying he would not have contacts to get this, that is indeed if it ever existed in the first place !

seems the UK government is not playing by the rules, refusing to share access to the chemical substance used in the attack.

if indeed they have this substance

What possible positives do you think the government may have listed in making up the substance as the cause?

hey, im open to all facts, but they need to be facts

Russia is not playing ball, but neither are "we" the UK, not only have we not shared this substance information with Russia, but any other country.

and just before a so called democratic election..

Yep, have to agree. I reckon it was a bit daft to give russia adaft deadline till midnight.

Made me think of 'high noon', may at one end of the street and putin at the other, 6 shooters hung low... Pathetic! "

our government was pushed into this by our lovely friendly media

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea..

are you saying he would not have contacts to get this, that is indeed if it ever existed in the first place !

seems the UK government is not playing by the rules, refusing to share access to the chemical substance used in the attack.

if indeed they have this substance

What possible positives do you think the government may have listed in making up the substance as the cause?

hey, im open to all facts, but they need to be facts

Russia is not playing ball, but neither are "we" the UK, not only have we not shared this substance information with Russia, but any other country.

and just before a so called democratic election..

Yep, have to agree. I reckon it was a bit daft to give russia adaft deadline till midnight.

Made me think of 'high noon', may at one end of the street and putin at the other, 6 shooters hung low... Pathetic! "

The deadline was daft and probably more to do with her own weak position than anything sensible..

Had she said we welcome a small number of scientists both independent and Russian to verify it is what we say then go from there I think that would allow more time to build a case and puts the onus on them to participate being Co signatories to the international agreements on such weapons..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Which country invented the vx nerve agent

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

again... tried that with MH17... and then in the final independent report the dutch air accident team accused the russians of trying to obstruct the investigation at every point.....

the russians don't play fair with anything that makes them look bad....

you can try to hit them diplomatically.... or you can try and hit them in the pocket.... you turn the screw on putins rich friends and that is where you put the pressure on...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Which country invented the vx nerve agent

And the steam train too?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Which country invented the vx nerve agent

Who invented the car? Are tbey responsible for all car accidents?

Not defending russia, just saying the facts have to be found before accusations start. The nerve agent formula was leaked 20ish years ago.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Which country invented the vx nerve agent

Who invented the car? Are tbey responsible for all car accidents?

Not defending russia, just saying the facts have to be found before accusations start. The nerve agent formula was leaked 20ish years ago. "
.

It's my understanding that this particular type of compound was actually invented as a pesticide, it just happened to be an incredibly dangerous one with other uses.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

may going in hard....

23 diplomats... uk version of the magnisky act.... potential freezing of russian assets... no higher level communications/visits (prince william will be gutted not to go to russia for the world cup)

plus they have asked for a session at the un security council, i wonder if the uk will envoke article 4 and ask for a full nato meeting?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

and i bet ofcom will now us this as the "unfit license holder" excuse to get rid of RT....

corbyn's response is dropping the ball again... i don't think he is being tough anough.....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"and i bet ofcom will now us this as the "unfit license holder" excuse to get rid of RT....

corbyn's response is dropping the ball again... i don't think he is being tough anough....."
.

Maybe he's waiting till we actually get some evidence and not just compound that was invented by the Russians 30 years ago but could be made anywhere in the world with the right expertise ie a decent chemist

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

"Man the fuck up and go to war with them. Send your army, planes and warships.

Oh wait, can you guys defend yourselves without us?"

We do pretty well, how did you guys do in the Bay of Pigs, Korea and Vietnam conflicts?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Although having said that... Let's jump the gun and fire off some nukes yeeehaw

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"and i bet ofcom will now us this as the "unfit license holder" excuse to get rid of RT....

corbyn's response is dropping the ball again... i don't think he is being tough anough......

nobody has ever made these particular nerve agents other than the russians.... and are actually on the banned chemical weapons list

unless you think otherwise....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

Bang out of order! Just because they killed that guy with the umbrella, and all those school kids in Chechnya, and that guy with the radioactive tea, and the airliner full of Koreans..... people think they did this to!? Terrible.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ustJ0dieTV/TS
over a year ago

Burton-on-Trent

In a few weeks/months time this could happen: "because of this and continued escalation by Russia, it would be imprudent for us to leave our closest military allies at this time".

And Porton Down is not far from Salisbury. I wonder what they do there???

Just throwing that out there. I don't believe a word of it tho.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Probably not except for the method used this time on the back of the Litvinenko murder, would think bumping off each other's agents/double agents is par for the course ..

maybe had they used another method successfully as other's do sadly however the issue of the military grade nerve agent sort of possibly throws a big fuck off spanner through that idea..

are you saying he would not have contacts to get this, that is indeed if it ever existed in the first place !

seems the UK government is not playing by the rules, refusing to share access to the chemical substance used in the attack.

if indeed they have this substance

What possible positives do you think the government may have listed in making up the substance as the cause?

hey, im open to all facts, but they need to be facts

Russia is not playing ball, but neither are "we" the UK, not only have we not shared this substance information with Russia, but any other country.

and just before a so called democratic election..

Yep, have to agree. I reckon it was a bit daft to give russia adaft deadline till midnight.

Made me think of 'high noon', may at one end of the street and putin at the other, 6 shooters hung low... Pathetic!

our government was pushed into this by our lovely friendly media"

Oh crap.

I agree with you

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *igsteve43Man
over a year ago

derby

One thing proved today , corbyns not fit to lead his own party let alone the country

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"and i bet ofcom will now us this as the "unfit license holder" excuse to get rid of RT....

corbyn's response is dropping the ball again... i don't think he is being tough anough......

nobody has ever made these particular nerve agents other than the russians.... and are actually on the banned chemical weapons list

unless you think otherwise.... "
.

The ingredients are easily come by, all you need is a good chemist and some specialist equipment.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Bang out of order! Just because they killed that guy with the umbrella, and all those school kids in Chechnya, and that guy with the radioactive tea, and the airliner full of Koreans..... people think they did this to!? Terrible. "
.

Again this is evidence that would be completely inadmissible in a court of law.

And on a side note they were never found guilty of the Alexander litvineko case the polonium 210 which was claimed to be only made in Russia was proven false at the enquiry a year later.

The airline was shot down by Russian missiles but not by Russian orders

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

So, 23 "diplomats" expelled, and no members of the Royal Family or British Govt to attend the World Cup matches in Russia in 3 months time.

Should we go further, and boycott the football completely?

What other actions would you suggest?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ustJ0dieTV/TS
over a year ago

Burton-on-Trent

"So, 23 "diplomats" expelled, and no members of the Royal Family or British Govt to attend the World Cup matches in Russia in 3 months time.

Should we go further, and boycott the football completely?

What other actions would you suggest?"

As a country, bending over and lubing our asses up.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"So, 23 "diplomats" expelled, and no members of the Royal Family or British Govt to attend the World Cup matches in Russia in 3 months time.

Should we go further, and boycott the football completely?

What other actions would you suggest?"

Freeze the oligarch's wealth.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

Again this is evidence that would be completely inadmissible in a court of law.

And on a side note they were never found guilty of the Alexander litvineko case the polonium 210 which was claimed to be only made in Russia was proven false at the enquiry a year later.

The airline was shot down by Russian missiles but not by Russian orders"

& it wasn’t Russian troops who invaded Crimea, it was little green men...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"and i bet ofcom will now us this as the "unfit license holder" excuse to get rid of RT....

corbyn's response is dropping the ball again... i don't think he is being tough anough....."

Apparently, RT have a really good record with ofcom, unlike some western news outlets, so would have to be a good excuse

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Again this is evidence that would be completely inadmissible in a court of law.

And on a side note they were never found guilty of the Alexander litvineko case the polonium 210 which was claimed to be only made in Russia was proven false at the enquiry a year later.

The airline was shot down by Russian missiles but not by Russian orders

& it wasn’t Russian troops who invaded Crimea, it was little green men...

Where is your evidence Russian troops invaded Crimea?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So, 23 "diplomats" expelled, and no members of the Royal Family or British Govt to attend the World Cup matches in Russia in 3 months time.

Should we go further, and boycott the football completely?

What other actions would you suggest?

As a country, bending over and lubing our asses up. "

What amused me was may mentioning "corrupt elite Russians", not the British ones!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *est Wales WifeCouple
over a year ago

Near Carmarthen

As I posted on the other thread there is no evidence of Russian involvent (they may be involved but the evidence below actually pints elsewhere). Anyone who 'just believes' the UK government and our media without questioning must be exceptinally dumb. Anyone remember the WMD dossier before the illegal invasion of Iraq?

There are various reasons why various government's might seek to discredit Russia but the main one is that war is more profitable than peace.

The following is referenced (unlike the Uk goverment's statements about Novichoks) and is a not my work but paints a very different story to the official line.

As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant and their composition unknown.

"In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published. (Black, 2016)" Reference: Robin Black. Development, Historical Use and Properties of Chemical Warfare Agents. Royal Society of Chemistry

Yet now, the British Government is claiming to be able instantly to identify a substance which its only biological weapons research centre has never seen before and was unsure of its existence. Worse, it claims to be able not only to identify it, but to pinpoint its origin. Given Dr Black’s publication, it is plain that claim cannot be true.

The world’s international chemical weapons experts share Dr Black’s opinion. The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) is a UN body based in the Hague. In 2013 this was the report of its Scientific Advisory Board, which included US, French, German and Russian government representatives and on which Dr Black was the UK representative:

' [The SAB] emphasised that the definition of toxic chemicals in the Convention would cover all potential candidate chemicals that might be utilised as chemical weapons. Regarding new toxic chemicals not listed in the Annex on Chemicals but which may nevertheless pose a risk to the Convention, the SAB makes reference to “Novichoks”. The name “Novichok” is used in a publication of a former Soviet scientist who reported investigating a new class of nerve agents suitable for use as binary chemical weapons. The SAB states that it has insufficient information to comment on the existence or properties of “Novichoks”.' (OPCW, 2013) OPCW: Report of the Scientific Advisory Board on developments in science and technology for the Third Review Conference 27 March 2013

Indeed the OPCW was so sceptical of the viability of “novichoks” that it decided – with US and UK agreement – not to add them nor their alleged precursors to its banned list. In short, the scientific community broadly accepts Mirzayanov was working on “novichoks” but doubts he succeeded.

Given that the OPCW has taken the view the evidence for the existence of “Novichoks” is dubious, if the UK actually has a sample of one it is extremely important the UK presents that sample to the OPCW. Indeed the UK has a binding treaty obligation to present that sample to OPCW. Russa has – unreported by the corporate media – entered a demand at the OPCW that Britain submit a sample of the Salisbury material for international analysis.

Yet Britain refuses to submit it to the OPCW.

Why?

A second part of May’s accusation is that “Novichoks” could only be made in certain military installations. But that is also demonstrably untrue. If they exist at all, Novichoks were allegedly designed to be able to be made at bench level in any commercial chemical facility – that was a major point of them. The only real evidence for the existence of Novichoks was the testimony of the ex-Soviet scientist Mizayanov. And this is what Mirzayanov actually wrote.

"One should be mindful that the chemical components or precursors of A-232 or its binary version novichok-5 are ordinary organophosphates that can be made at commercial chemical companies that manufacture such products as fertilizers and pesticides." Vil S. Mirzayanov, “Dismantling the Soviet/Russian Chemical Weapons Complex: An Insider’s View,” in Amy E. Smithson, Dr. Vil S. Mirzayanov, Gen Roland Lajoie, and Michael Krepon, Chemical Weapons Disarmament in Russia: Problems and Prospects, Stimson Report No. 17, October 1995, p. 21.

It is a scientific impossibility for Porton Down to have been able to test for novichoks, without possessing some to develop the tests. As Dr Black has revealed Porton Down had never seen any Russian novichok, they cannot have a test for it unless they synthesised some themselves to develop the tests. And if they can synthesise it, so can many others, not just the Russians.

And finally – Mirzayanov is an Uzbek name and the novichok programme, assuming it existed, was in the Soviet Union but far away from modern Russia, at Nukus in modern Uzbekistan. I have visited the Nukus chemical weapons site myself. It was dismantled and made safe and all the stocks destroyed and the equipment removed by the American government, as I recall finishing while I was Ambassador there. There has in fact never been any evidence that any “novichok” ever existed in Russia itself.

To summarise:

1) Porton Down has acknowledged in publications it has never seen any Russian “novichoks”. The UK government has absolutely no “fingerprint” information that can safely attribute this substance to Russia.

2) Until now, neither Porton Down nor the world’s experts at the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were convinced “Novichoks” even exist.

3) The UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW.

4) “Novichoks” were specifically designed to be able to be manufactured from common ingredients on any scientific bench. The Americans dismantled and studied the facility that allegedly developed them. It is completely untrue only the Russians could make them, if anybody can.

5) The “Novichok” programme was in Uzbekistan not in Russia. Its legacy was inherited by the Americans during their alliance with Karimov, not by the Russians.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just to put the boot on the other foot, if a British traitor was killed in Russia in exactly the same way, would it be just as bad?

Well he'll get a job in guantanamo then!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Again this is evidence that would be completely inadmissible in a court of law.

And on a side note they were never found guilty of the Alexander litvineko case the polonium 210 which was claimed to be only made in Russia was proven false at the enquiry a year later.

The airline was shot down by Russian missiles but not by Russian orders

& it wasn’t Russian troops who invaded Crimea, it was little green men...

Where is your evidence Russian troops invaded Crimea?

"
.

As invasions go it was pretty peaceful.

They held a democratic referendum in which the vast majority of the voters voted for unification with Russia.

Most people in crimea are pretty happy with the Russian investment since

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Turn the clock back to the dissolution of the USSR in the 1990s and think of two things:

a) A promise by NATO not to encroach on the newly-independent states of the Warsaw Pact

b) An agreement with Ukraine that Russia could retain land in Crimea for a Navy installation, and garrison it with troops to protect it (the UK agreed something similar with Cyprus in the last century, hence a RAF base on sovereign UK territory in Cyprus).

Fast forward a few years.

The Russian-leaning leader of an increasingly bankrupt Ukraine, corruption and agitation by both the US and EU to persuade Ukraine to look west instead of east.

A violent coup and the rise to power of some unsavoury, far right characters, some openly promising the ethnic cleansing of the minority Russian population.

Remember the shootings, the fires?

Crimea is something like 95% ethnic Russian.

Crimea did what Catalonia did, took the situation into their own hands and decided, not surprisingly, their best bet of safety was to rejoin Russia. The result was overwhelming.

Just as in Catalan, the central power declared it illegal - the constitution of Ukraine did not allow any part of the Ukraine to leave.

The Crimeans, faced with threats of ethnic cleansing, put two fingers up to Ukraine and packed their bags.

Their referendum in Crimea was as "illegal" as the one in Catalonia.

Meanwhile, NATO is now positioned all along the border of the Russian federation, and is exercising with Ukraine.

And people are surprised there is a domestic narrative in Russia about how the west threatens the homeland?

It plays to fears borne out by repeated invasions from the west throughout history.

This is not the narrative you will hear in the media here, of course.

We like our conflicts to be black and white - British are good, Russians are bad.

Facts that get in the way of that are conveniently left out.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Again this is evidence that would be completely inadmissible in a court of law.

And on a side note they were never found guilty of the Alexander litvineko case the polonium 210 which was claimed to be only made in Russia was proven false at the enquiry a year later.

The airline was shot down by Russian missiles but not by Russian orders

& it wasn’t Russian troops who invaded Crimea, it was little green men...

Where is your evidence Russian troops invaded Crimea?

As invasions go it was pretty peaceful.

They held a democratic referendum in which the vast majority of the voters voted for unification with Russia.

Most people in crimea are pretty happy with the Russian investment since"

Have to agree there, they not only speak Russian but identify themselves as Russian.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Turn the clock back to the dissolution of the USSR in the 1990s and think of two things: