FabSwingers.com forum: EU Army

By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Why are Brexiters so terrified of a so called "EU Army"?

Some point to Juncker's 2017 State of the Union address for complete clarity to this "Army". Unfortunately Juncker doesn't mention Army even once in his speech. The only relevant section is below.

"And I want us to dedicate further efforts to defence matters. A new European Defence Fund is in the offing. As is a Permanent Structured Cooperation in the area of defence. By 2025 we need a fully-fledged European Defence Union. We need it. And NATO wants it."

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm

What is so terrifying about this, when the UK is already a member of several defence unions, including NATO, JEF and CJEF that are either operational, or a lot closer to bring operational than this phantom "EU Army". Is there a "NATO Army"? A "JEF Army"? A "CJEF Army"? A "VJTF Army"? No, there are none of these things, so why believe there will be anything like an "EU Army"?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’ll give this a bump as nobody else seems bothered to reply.....

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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago

south west , continental

The wheels are already in motion for an EU army. A declaration was signed by 23 members of the EU on 13th November 2017. Excluding Great Britain, Denmark, Eire, Malta and Portugal who did not sign.

There is already operational training happening with joint EU countries and they train under an EU badge. So it is a reality.

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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago

south west , continental

I gather if shit would hit the fan the UK would support such a force if called upon.

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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago

south west , continental

I think where folk get a little teasy about fighting is it is done under an EU flag/banner and not their own sovereign nation. The EU badge is worn on uniforms along with a national badge.

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By *ilent.KnightMan
over a year ago

Swindon

"I think where folk get a little teasy about fighting is it is done under an EU flag/banner and not their own sovereign nation. The EU badge is worn on uniforms along with a national badge. "
isnt this similar to nato ?

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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago

south west , continental

Yes I think the ISAF/NATO badge was worn below the national Country badge.

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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago

south west , continental

Perhaps there are former military personnel who would be familiar with this when they did ops under a combined NATO force.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe we should wait for such an informed person to inform us....rather than listening to the twittering of those of us that know not of what we speak.....

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Perhaps there are former military personnel who would be familiar with this when they did ops under a combined NATO force. "

All we ever had was either an orange or blue flag or tape on the vehicles during the large National exercises in Germany, never wore any individual emblems when was in but it has changed since 89 I reckon..

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The wheels are already in motion for an EU army. A declaration was signed by 23 members of the EU on 13th November 2017. Excluding Great Britain, Denmark, Eire, Malta and Portugal who did not sign.

There is already operational training happening with joint EU countries and they train under an EU badge. So it is a reality. "

So first of all, countries haven't been forced to join if you are saying a number of countries didn't sign up for it.

Secondly, if this "EU Army" is already training, then how does one join the EU Army?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If an EU Army was "created" then I would guess it would be a direct result of a direct attack on one of it's member states and until that point there would just be a framework / structure in place to swing into motion to meet that threat.

I do not think for a moment Armies would be amalgamated into one over all EU army but there would be a command structure created to take control of all member states forces IF the need arose.

I wouldn't be supprised if different member states focused on separate military components so when they were all brought together it would match or surpass China / USA / Russia etc for might and capabilities.

This in a time when we cannot afford our own Armed Forces at current levels would give us security like we've never had before.

We wouldn't be at the beck and call of America and all it's Wars on the Muslim world anymore like we have been. We've only followed America for the continuation of their "support" if we ever needed it. That would STOP

Also, do you think Argentina would ever decide to move on The Falklands again if doing so brought the entire EU into the conflict....

Defence spending could be reduced while improving our security 10 fold.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"Why are Brexiters so terrified of a so called "EU Army"?

Some point to Juncker's 2017 State of the Union address for complete clarity to this "Army". Unfortunately Juncker doesn't mention Army even once in his speech. The only relevant section is below.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm

we are not trying to have a war with Russia even if the Eu are,another reason to get out

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Why are Brexiters so terrified of a so called "EU Army"?

Some point to Juncker's 2017 State of the Union address for complete clarity to this "Army". Unfortunately Juncker doesn't mention Army even once in his speech. The only relevant section is below.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm

we are not trying to have a war with Russia even if the Eu are,another reason to get out"

The EU aren't trying to have a war with Russia. You can sleep easy.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

There was once before a precursor to an EU Army. It existed in mainly southern England and amongst resistance groups in Nazi occupied Europe.

Eventually the Americans turned up and the full night of all allied fighters kicked thecBaxi’s out of this world.

Donald Trump is anti NATI, anti United Nations and anti EU. It makes perfect sense therefore for European nations to make contingency plans when the United States is such an unreliable partner.

What part of “America First” are we supposed to misunderstand?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"we are not trying to have a war with Russia even if the Eu are,another reason to get out"

Ohhh please explain that one then because you obviously know something the rest of the world don't.

Please, don't keep it a secret, inform the rest of us.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Maybe we should wait for such an informed person to inform us....rather than listening to the twittering of those of us that know not of what we speak....."

Tumble

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Maybe we should wait for such an informed person to inform us....rather than listening to the twittering of those of us that know not of what we speak....."

Tumble

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Maybe we should wait for such an informed person to inform us....rather than listening to the twittering of those of us that know not of what we speak....."

Tumble

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Maybe we should wait for such an informed person to inform us....rather than listening to the twittering of those of us that know not of what we speak....."

Tumblewead

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Some over secure software won't let me right wead or tumblewead with 'ee'.

WFT.

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Some over secure software won't let me right wead or tumblewead with 'ee'.

WFT.

Yup, I think you can do it if you spell it in caps TUMBLEWEED. You can't write d*unk without a star automatically appearing either. If you look on "reply and quote" on this post you will see what I really typed.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

It is strange how many who have no experience of the military or understand military issues know how to defend our country and where our military and defence interests lie (both internal and external).

Guess that is why the party that claims to be true blue can gut our military and sell of our internal security to G4S rent a cop and get away with it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its about time the council gave Bob Curry a home and roof over his head

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Its about time the council gave Bob Curry a home and roof over his head"

There are 5 million people registered for social housing. There are 2,000+ military charities, many of which support with housing including TRBL, SSAFA, Stoll, Haig Homes, Amicus Trust etc. All of them would house Bob.

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Why are Brexiters so terrified of a so called "EU Army"?

Some point to Juncker's 2017 State of the Union address for complete clarity to this "Army". Unfortunately Juncker doesn't mention Army even once in his speech. The only relevant section is below.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm

we are not trying to have a war with Russia even if the Eu are,another reason to get out"

The head of the Army, General Sir Nick Carter is saying we can't win in a war against russia, what do you think of him saying that?

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By *bi_scotlandTV/TS
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Why are Brexiters so terrified of a so called "EU Army"?

Some point to Juncker's 2017 State of the Union address for complete clarity to this "Army". Unfortunately Juncker doesn't mention Army even once in his speech. The only relevant section is below.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm

we are not trying to have a war with Russia even if the Eu are,another reason to get out

The head of the Army, General Sir Nick Carter is saying we can't win in a war against russia, what do you think of him saying that? "

To be honest that's nothing new though. Not sure there's been any point in history where we could have.

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Why are Brexiters so terrified of a so called "EU Army"?

Some point to Juncker's 2017 State of the Union address for complete clarity to this "Army". Unfortunately Juncker doesn't mention Army even once in his speech. The only relevant section is below.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm

we are not trying to have a war with Russia even if the Eu are,another reason to get out

The head of the Army, General Sir Nick Carter is saying we can't win in a war against russia, what do you think of him saying that?

To be honest that's nothing new though. Not sure there's been any point in history where we could have."

I know, it was more aimed at the comment about the EU supposedly wanting a war with Russia when it's the head of the British army talking about it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why are Brexiters so terrified of a so called "EU Army"?

Some point to Juncker's 2017 State of the Union address for complete clarity to this "Army". Unfortunately Juncker doesn't mention Army even once in his speech. The only relevant section is below.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm

we are not trying to have a war with Russia even if the Eu are,another reason to get out

The head of the Army, General Sir Nick Carter is saying we can't win in a war against russia, what do you think of him saying that? "

you cut him short, he went on to say this morning that the British Army was 20 years out-dated and well under equipped whilst the government cuts back finance every year, he also said they need an extra £2 Billion a year

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Why are Brexiters so terrified of a so called "EU Army"?

Some point to Juncker's 2017 State of the Union address for complete clarity to this "Army". Unfortunately Juncker doesn't mention Army even once in his speech. The only relevant section is below.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm

we are not trying to have a war with Russia even if the Eu are,another reason to get out

The head of the Army, General Sir Nick Carter is saying we can't win in a war against russia, what do you think of him saying that?

That's why I don't vote Tory

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By *oAnCouple
over a year ago

Streatham

I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

In effect though as the world has already made a shift from the West to the East lets say something kicks off in the South China sea and we want to help Australia and the US, well under a EU command we have no choice but not to get involved as we cant as we have no army anymore and believe me the EU would never get involved in a conflict so far from it's base, besides Europeans have been killing and invading each other for 2000 years very much doubt that are brave enough to fight in a far flung place - so that is just a little scenario that could be true in the future

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Mo"

Ok, thanks for the input, can you point to any offical EU document, speech, announcement, policy etc. that states that that is what the EU is trying to create?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Trying to think if there is any EU country I like or trust, nope, none, thought so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Trying to think if there is any EU country I like or trust, nope, none, thought so.

That's a failing on your part, more than anything.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Some make pretence about savings etc (£350 millions) when the actual effectiveness of having coordinated efforts - improving efficiency, is something they'll shout clearly against. It highlights dishonesty that makes them inappropriate as a communicator of any value or influence.

Like puppets repeating the same mantras of fear, they resemble the trump campaign style mouthpieces or are miming a Russian sourced sound-bite.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Mo"

You say it's a bad idea - funny that, it's your idea

It's certainly not an EU concept.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Trying to think if there is any EU country I like or trust, nope, none, thought so.

Sounds like a Brexit mantra

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By *oAnCouple
over a year ago

Streatham

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Ok, thanks for the input, can you point to any offical EU document, speech, announcement, policy etc. that states that that is what the EU is trying to create? "

Yeah sure google it. Look I was in the planning intel war business for another country outside Europe since the late 70's and we have seen this comong since the 1980's. Actually another aspect none of ypu talk about is how you nearly as well as France nearly lost your seat on the security council. If it wasnt fpr the ussr collapsing and major quickly telling the russians to take the soviets place right now you might have the eu sitibg where the uk and France are

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Ok, thanks for the input, can you point to any offical EU document, speech, announcement, policy etc. that states that that is what the EU is trying to create?

So YOU can't provide us with any actual policy document, speech etc. from the EU that says the EU is trying to create what you describe. I provided a quote and a link, can you do the same?

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”

On 10th November 2016. DW and Reuters reported;

The European Union needs to overhaul its defense strategy and work towards creating a European army, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told reporters in Berlin on Wednesday night.

"We have a lot to thank the Americans for… but they won't look after Europe's security for ever," Juncker said. "We have to do this ourselves, which is why we need a new approach to building a European security union with the end goal of establishing a European army."

Juncker emphasized that his call for a European army was irrespective of Donald Trump's US election victory.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”

On 10th November 2016. DW and Reuters reported;

The European Union needs to overhaul its defense strategy and work towards creating a European army, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told reporters in Berlin on Wednesday night.

Juncker emphasized that his call for a European army was irrespective of Donald Trump's US election victory.

Perhaps they would be better "Paying their way" in NATO first

before expanding to other things

No wonder the Great USA and Mr Trump is mighty pissed off

the EU expects everything for free, and expects others to pay,

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"The wheels are already in motion for an EU army. A declaration was signed by 23 members of the EU on 13th November 2017. Excluding Great Britain, Denmark, Eire, Malta and Portugal who did not sign.

There is already operational training happening with joint EU countries and they train under an EU badge. So it is a reality. "

PESCO was signed by 25 of the 27 EU members on 11th December 2017.

Denmark did not participate as it has an opt-out from the Common Security and Defence Policy; Malta opted-out as well.

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By *oAnCouple
over a year ago

Streatham

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Ok, thanks for the input, can you point to any offical EU document, speech, announcement, policy etc. that states that that is what the EU is trying to create?

So YOU can't provide us with any actual policy document, speech etc. from the EU that says the EU is trying to create what you describe. I provided a quote and a link, can you do the same? "

Look I wrote that from my mobile, frankly their are enough documents and speeches around, a simple google search would provide that knowledge but now that I am at my laptop here is a more recent document outlining Europe's strategy with regards to a European army.(The are documents and policy documents going back to the 1960's) As a matter of interest from a security point of view voting to leave Europe actually is the right thing to do as history is not on your side with regards to combining armies, as for voting to leave Europe on other matters well that is debatable but not from a defence point of view; well, unless you Brits allow private ownership of weapons in case you are attacked.

https://ec.europa.eu/epsc/sites/epsc/files/strategic_note_issue_4_en.pdf

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Perhaps they would be better "Paying their way" in NATO first

before expanding to other things

No wonder the Great USA and Mr Trump is mighty pissed off

That's because Trump is a halfwit that doesn't understand anything beyond his zero sum game con artistry.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Ok, thanks for the input, can you point to any offical EU document, speech, announcement, policy etc. that states that that is what the EU is trying to create?

So YOU can't provide us with any actual policy document, speech etc. from the EU that says the EU is trying to create what you describe. I provided a quote and a link, can you do the same?

https://ec.europa.eu/epsc/sites/epsc/files/strategic_note_issue_4_en.pdf"

Ha ha! 2 days after providing what was asked for, and the sound of tumble drifting across their refusal to acknowledge they were wrong is deafening.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It is strange how many who have no experience of the military or understand military issues know how to defend our country and where our military and defence interests lie (both internal and external)."

Politicians?

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Politicians?"

It is not just politicians...

Remember we have historical fact to guide and inform our choices...

The USA refused to join WW1 until it had profited to the maximum from the war and realised that unless it was on the winning side it would not get any of the victors spoils.

It then did exactly the same in WW2 emerging as the single most powerful economy in the world.

Now it has a leader who is following the same isolationist path as the US chose in the 1930's and who are we running to and from?

If you refuse to learn from history you are doomed to repeat it. Only thing that has changed is it is not Germany that is aggressively rearming and annexing territory it considers theirs. It is Russia. And just like in the 30's we have a military warning it is not fit for purpose and a Tory government intent on cutting everything including the military in the name of austerity.

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Ok, thanks for the input, can you point to any offical EU document, speech, announcement, policy etc. that states that that is what the EU is trying to create?

So YOU can't provide us with any actual policy document, speech etc. from the EU that says the EU is trying to create what you describe. I provided a quote and a link, can you do the same?

https://ec.europa.eu/epsc/sites/epsc/files/strategic_note_issue_4_en.pdf

Ha ha! 2 days after providing what was asked for, and the sound of tumble drifting across their refusal to acknowledge they were wrong is deafening.

Did you read it? Its page after page of reasons why there will never be a "European Army"!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Politicians?

It is not just politicians...

Remember we have historical fact to guide and inform our choices...

The USA refused to join WW1 until it had profited to the maximum from the war and realised that unless it was on the winning side it would not get any of the victors spoils.

It then did exactly the same in WW2 emerging as the single most powerful economy in the world.

Now it has a leader who is following the same isolationist path as the US chose in the 1930's and who are we running to and from?

Thought we get told we are a "Rich" nation

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Thought we get told we are a "Rich" nation

Austerity has nothing to do with the wealth of a nation. Austerity is about how the wealth generated by the nation is divided and how the burden of running the nation is divided.

When the nation is run on the principles of prosperity all benefit and those who take the most out are made to pay the most in.

When the nation is run on the principles of austerity the aim is to move to a position where all contribute at as near as possible to the same rate without consideration of ability to survive without causing the population to revolt and overthrow the ruling (wealthy) elite.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Ok, thanks for the input, can you point to any offical EU document, speech, announcement, policy etc. that states that that is what the EU is trying to create?

So YOU can't provide us with any actual policy document, speech etc. from the EU that says the EU is trying to create what you describe. I provided a quote and a link, can you do the same?

https://ec.europa.eu/epsc/sites/epsc/files/strategic_note_issue_4_en.pdf

Ha ha! 2 days after providing what was asked for, and the sound of tumble drifting across their refusal to acknowledge they were wrong is deafening.

Did you read it? Its page after page of reasons why there will never be a "European Army"! "

Yes, did you read the section that says specifically that Juncker wants an EU Army?

From Reuters News Agency

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker speaks during a news conference in Riga January 8, 2015:

The European Union needs its own army to face up to Russia and other threats as well as restore the bloc's foreign policy standing around the world, said EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker.

Arguing that NATO was not enough because not all members of the transatlantic defense alliance are in the EU, Juncker said a common EU army would also send important signals to the world.

Direct quotes from this conference, from Juncker include:

"A joint EU army would show the world that there would never again be a war between EU countries,"

"Such an army would also help us to form common foreign and security policies and allow Europe to take on responsibility in the world."

"With its own army, Europe could react more credibly to the threat to peace in a member state or in a neighboring state.

"One wouldn't have a European army to deploy it immediately. But a common European army would convey a clear message to Russia that we are serious about defending our European values."

After this:

German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen welcomed Juncker's proposal: "Our future as Europeans will at some point be with a European army," she told German radio.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the EU having its own army is sensible.Its got to be cheaper and more effective.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I can give you a view of a bad idea under one EU army

Control of the UK army moves to an EU command made up of people under control of the EU rather than a nation state.

Control of nukes would be taken away from the UK

France's general have already resigned for the above reasons.

There are many more but the EU/UK has no real bearing on me so from an outsider that understands the war business those are just 2 main points.

Ok, thanks for the input, can you point to any offical EU document, speech, announcement, policy etc. that states that that is what the EU is trying to create?

So YOU can't provide us with any actual policy document, speech etc. from the EU that says the EU is trying to create what you describe. I provided a quote and a link, can you do the same?

https://ec.europa.eu/epsc/sites/epsc/files/strategic_note_issue_4_en.pdf

Ha ha! 2 days after providing what was asked for, and the sound of tumble drifting across their refusal to acknowledge they were wrong is deafening.

Did you read it? Its page after page of reasons why there will never be a "European Army"! "

I was going to say exactly the same thing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 26/01/18 18:49:37]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Better off being an independent military. No getting dragged into stupid wars by the eu.

Problem is though, we let ourselves get dragged into stupid wars started by America

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Better off being an independent military."

Nope, it is not. It is much better to be a part of an integrated alliance that uses the same or interchangeable kit with common command structures that allows seamless combining of resources including personnel. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

"No getting dragged into stupid wars by the eu."

If I am going to have to fight a war I want to do it as far from Briton as possible. Maybe you have not noticed but the USA started the 20th century an economic minnow and ended it the worlds largest economy. This is in no small means down to the fact it has fought all of its wars in other countries!

"Problem is though, we let ourselves get dragged into stupid wars started by America"

See above! Although I do accept that we fail to profit from our foreign wars where the US always does.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Independent as in parliament being in control of what our military gets involved in. Never mentioned kit.

If I am going to have to fight a war I want to do it as far from Briton as possible. "
you say that as in terms of taking the fight elsewhere, ergo starting something. I agree on this but.. Responding to a threat, not being one

Maybe you have not noticed but the USA started the 20th century an economic minnow and ended it the worlds largest economy. This is in no small means down to the fact it has fought all of its wars in other countries!."

Many countries have. If possible, as far from the uk as possible but on occasion there's no choice and has to be fought where the threat arises. In ww2 the bad joke was : we'll fight to the last American soldier.

We can't be complacent in Our 'special relationship' with America reversing that bad joke, or any other country, or the eu dragging us into a war for other people's interests to our detriment

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Although.. Ive just realised.. A faux pa on my part. Our government should have more backbone and not agree to get involved in stupid wars.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Independent as in parliament being in control of what our military gets involved in. Never mentioned kit.

If I am going to have to fight a war I want to do it as far from Briton as possible. you say that as in terms of taking the fight elsewhere, ergo starting something. I agree on this but.. Responding to a threat, not being one

We can't be complacent in Our 'special relationship' with America reversing that bad joke, or any other country, or the eu dragging us into a war for other people's interests to our detriment

You talk like we currently have a choice but, with the reality being that almost every country in the EU also being a part of NATO (Ireland is the only exception that I know of but I haven't checked them all) we'd be dragged into other peoples' war any how if almost any part of Europe west of Ukraine was at war. Article 5 of NATO (an attack on one is an attack on all) already commits us.

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

A classic "fear" expressed in all the anti EU circles is being forced to do something against our will, in this case a war, in other cases being told what laws to have etc .

Terms like EUSSR get thrown around, or dictatorship or bullied.

Yet as soon as you challenge the view, it falls apart. The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever. Yes it has adopted some laws some people didn't like, that's no different to the UK parliament making a law. The problem is that the people promoting the law don't quite speak the same as us.

An EU army ( that's a misnomer, it's European countries working together) would be under far more control than the British army, no foreign adventures, no commitment without votes.

But that's not what the minority want to hear, so gets ignored.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever. "

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Independent as in parliament being in control of what our military gets involved in. Never mentioned kit.

We can't be complacent in Our 'special relationship' with America reversing that bad joke, or any other country, or the eu dragging us into a war for other people's interests to our detriment

Well, technically that's not quite right. Any member state can invoke Article 5, and then it has to be unanimously agreed at the North Atlantic Council.

Whilst tanks rolling across a border might be a very obvious sign of an attack, modern hybrid threats such as from Russia are much more nuanced. For example their use of "little green men" unattributed forces, not wearing national uniform (against the Geneva convention) in Ukraine. Just this week we have had our Defence Secretary warning of a cyber attack against our infracture causing thousands of deaths, but would the NAC sign off on that as an attack? They didn't in the case of the 2007 attack on Estonia's internet infracture from Russia.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

Oh my god, do you really think that losing a democratic vote is dictatorial? So the referendum is dictatorial? Every time an opposition party votes against the government, yet the bill is still passed, is that dictatorial?

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

What a profoundly stupid thing to say, so when a local council doesn't do exactly what you want, when you want it, they are dictatorial?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A classic "fear" expressed in all the anti EU circles is being forced to do something against our will, in this case a war, in other cases being told what laws to have etc .

Terms like EUSSR get thrown around, or dictatorship or bullied.

Well that's how you view it, seeing as you seem obsessed with brexit witch hunt.

I'm referring to us getting embroiled in American lead wars.. Plus one illegal one based on fabricated evidence. Have we learnt anything? Seems not!

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By *LCC OP Couple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"A classic "fear" expressed in all the anti EU circles is being forced to do something against our will, in this case a war, in other cases being told what laws to have etc .

Terms like EUSSR get thrown around, or dictatorship or bullied.

Well that's how you view it, seeing as you seem obsessed with brexit witch hunt.

I'm referring to us getting embroiled in American lead wars.. Plus one illegal one based on fabricated evidence. Have we learnt anything? Seems not!

You say it was illegal, which law did it break? Who has been prosecuted for breaking it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A classic "fear" expressed in all the anti EU circles is being forced to do something against our will, in this case a war, in other cases being told what laws to have etc .

Terms like EUSSR get thrown around, or dictatorship or bullied.

Well that's how you view it, seeing as you seem obsessed with brexit witch hunt.

I'm referring to us getting embroiled in American lead wars.. Plus one illegal one based on fabricated evidence. Have we learnt anything? Seems not!

You say it was illegal, which law did it break? Who has been prosecuted for breaking it?"

Well a few have been borderline dodgy in my book, gw2 was declared illegal by

Kofi Annan. Proven later that hussain didn't have the weapons the Americans said he had, and taking everything the iraqi defectors were saying as true and keeping it secret that there waznt any independent evidence to back up tbeir claims.

Dr kelly, a brithish weapons inspector said there wasn't any wmds and was rebuked heavily, leading to him taking his own life.

The two main ones were tony Blair and bush junior, who should be charged for war crimes.

Look at iraq now, hussain was no saint

There's plenty of despot leaderz but are we going to invade every country with one?

Tell me, is iraq, and the Middle East better place now?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

... Just to add, theres millions of dead, displaced!, and maimed for life as a result?

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

Wasn't me that said we get dictated to.....

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

What a profoundly stupid thing to say, so when a local council doesn't do exactly what you want, when you want it, they are dictatorial?

Who was it said we get dictated to? Oh, yes....YOU.

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

What a profoundly stupid thing to say, so when a local council doesn't do exactly what you want, when you want it, they are dictatorial?

Who was it said we get dictated to? Oh, yes....YOU. "

Another profoundly stupid statement.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

So what you're saying is that if you lose a vote, you should accept you lost it, get over it, and get on with it.....

How ironic....

So why do you keep bitching and _oaning and whinging and whining like a spoilt child about the result of the referendum then?

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

So what you're saying is that if you lose a vote, you should accept you lost it, get over it, and get on with it.....

How ironic....

So why do you keep bitching and _oaning and whinging and whining like a spoilt child about the result of the referendum then?"

When something stuffs the economy, when it limits personal freedoms, when it is based on lies, xenophobia,hatred and division, it's worth fighting against.

It's called "morality"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

So what you're saying is that if you lose a vote, you should accept you lost it, get over it, and get on with it.....

How ironic....

So why do you keep bitching and _oaning and whinging and whining like a spoilt child about the result of the referendum then?

When something stuffs the economy, when it limits personal freedoms, when it is based on lies, xenophobia,hatred and division, it's worth fighting against.

It's called "morality""

How do you know!!!!!!!

it hasn't happened yet

no one knows until it happens

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

The UK has never adopted a law from Europe it didn't want to, ever.

From full fact, April 2016

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999

So, that's about 2 % . I apologise and say we have been "dictated to" 2 % of the time. And on those times the elected government of the day happily implemented the policies. Better?

So we voted against a law, were told we had to put into place anyway, so happily did so?

But nice to see that you admit that the EU can be dictatorial.....

So what you're saying is that if you lose a vote, you should accept you lost it, get over it, and get on with it.....

How ironic....

So why do you keep bitching and _oaning and whinging and whining like a spoilt child about the result of the referendum then?

When something stuffs the economy, when it limits personal freedoms, when it is based on lies, xenophobia,hatred and division, it's worth fighting against.

It's called "morality"

How do you know!!!!!!!

it hasn't happened yet

no one knows until it happens"

All the evidence is it's going to be nasty, expensive and painful.

All the projections from the informed observers are that it's going to Hurt.

The people who are promoting it say it's going to Hurt.

( The absolute best they can come up with is " it's not going to Hurt as much")

The legislation going through parliament already removes rights and protections.

The party leading this has already stated it will remove rights and protections.

So, when you are about to slam a door on your fingers, the question " how do you know it's going to Hurt?" Is pretty much answered.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

is that all the same experts who said brexit would not happen, the same experts who said the economy would crumble and lets not start with bank of England lol

lol

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"is that all the same experts who said brexit would not happen, the same experts who said the economy would crumble and lets not start with bank of England lol

lol"

Ah right, so blaming the experts is your way of ducking the issue. As you feel you are better informed and in a better position to make a prognosis, please use the evidence to do so, and demonstrate it using the primary sources available?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Psst it hasn't happened yet

you can use all projections you want

I will judge when it happens, and what ever way it goes, good or bad, I will still survive, possibly for the better

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"Psst it hasn't happened yet

you can use all projections you want

I will judge when it happens, and what ever way it goes, good or bad, I will still survive, possibly for the better"

So you value your survival, and don't give a damm about others getting hurt, however, come on, you are putting yourself up as knowing more than the experts ( you are keen to denigrate them), put your money where your mouth is, evidence please.

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By *utandbigMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth

Psst listen to the expert and do as your told he’s never wrong you no read his posts there all the same a bully I call him

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Psst it hasn't happened yet

you can use all projections you want

I will judge when it happens, and what ever way it goes, good or bad, I will still survive, possibly for the better

FOX;

what part of "brexit hasn't happened yet" do you not understand

We have had all the so called experts telling us how we would crumble the day after the vote, should brexit win, remember the comments of George Osborne,

even though Mark Carney sounded good, presented himself well, he was still wrong

money where my mouth is, my finances are well invested

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By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

"Psst it hasn't happened yet

you can use all projections you want

I will judge when it happens, and what ever way it goes, good or bad, I will still survive, possibly for the better

FOX;

what part of "brexit hasn't happened yet" do you not understand

We have had all the so called experts telling us how we would crumble the day after the vote, should brexit win, remember the comments of George Osborne,

even though Mark Carney sounded good, presented himself well, he was still wrong

money where my mouth is, my finances are well invested"

So you start by saying they don't know , but you know less.

You tell us Osbourne was wrong, but you know less?

But your money is ok.

I understand that it hasn't happened yet, I also understand the effects are happening now ( do you understand that?) I also understand that the effects will get worse. Do you understand that, actually a better question is do you care?