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"Has Farage tweeted yet..? He must be super happy! " he should be... after all isn't this all about this "taking back control" lark that brexiteers were telling us about.. it was fascinating watching the committee stage today and watching one brexiteer mp after another trying to tell us why this sort of "taking back control" was wrong! | |||
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"Has Farage tweeted yet..? He must be super happy! he should be... after all isn't this all about this "taking back control" lark that brexiteers were telling us about.. it was fascinating watching the committee stage today and watching one brexiteer mp after another trying to tell us why this sort of "taking back control" was wrong!" Why do so many people, politicians included, struggle with the simple concept "parliament is sovereign"? | |||
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" Why do so many people, politicians included, struggle with the simple concept "parliament is sovereign"?" As has been demonstrated, only when it suits their agenda. | |||
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"I'm sure we can all join togther to celebrate the sovereignty of Parliament onve again, with Parliament getting a meaningful vote, possibly even a veto over the final Brexit deal. Many on here have said they didn't vote due to immigration, or the economics, but instead voted to bring power back to Parliament. So let's hear how happy you are! "It's great that Parliament is regaining it's sovereignty from the EU. Many EU laws have passed through Parliament over the last 40 years without hardly any scrutiny though so I do wonder why people like you didn't raise any concerns before about that. I think the most telling part of your OP though is where you say,..."possibly even a veto over the final brexit deal". The vote today was never about stopping Brexit, Dominic Grieve who tabled the ammendment said it was never about stopping Brexit. Some Tory Brexit MP's opposed to the ammendment raised concerns that the ammendment could be used by Remainers to try to derail or stop Brexit though, and with your OP you have let the cat out of the bag. It's crystal clear what your motivation is being in support of this ammendment. | |||
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"the government got their arses handed to them today #titsup4thetories " Really? The vote for the ammendment was won with a majority of just 4. I wouldn't call that having their arse handed to them by any stretch of the imagination. | |||
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"the government got their arses handed to them today #titsup4thetories Really? The vote for the ammendment was won with a majority of just 4. I wouldn't call that having their arse handed to them by any stretch of the imagination. " you've spent months shouting about how the government have a massive majority since the last GE .... so for the government to be thrashed tonight over their EU withdrawal bill they must have taken a monumental kicking according to your logic .... and just to remind you that you claims that the eu withdrawal bill was passed 13 weeks ago .... utter fantasy  | |||
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"I think parliament voting to accept or reject the final deal is the right thing to do." Indeed | |||
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"the government got their arses handed to them today #titsup4thetories Really? The vote for the ammendment was won with a majority of just 4. I wouldn't call that having their arse handed to them by any stretch of the imagination. you've spent months shouting about how the government have a massive majority since the last GE .... so for the government to be thrashed tonight over their EU withdrawal bill they must have taken a monumental kicking according to your logic .... and just to remind you that you claims that the eu withdrawal bill was passed 13 weeks ago .... utter fantasy "Just to be clear the EU withdrawal bill is passed and WILL pass through Parliament. This vote today hasn't stopped the bill or stopped Brexit. The vote today just added an ammendment to the bill. | |||
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"the government got their arses handed to them today #titsup4thetories Really? The vote for the ammendment was won with a majority of just 4. I wouldn't call that having their arse handed to them by any stretch of the imagination. you've spent months shouting about how the government have a massive majority since the last GE .... so for the government to be thrashed tonight over their EU withdrawal bill they must have taken a monumental kicking according to your logic .... and just to remind you that you claims that the eu withdrawal bill was passed 13 weeks ago .... utter fantasy
Just to be clear the EU withdrawal bill is passed and WILL pass through Parliament. This vote today hasn't stopped the bill or stopped Brexit. The vote today just added an ammendment to the bill. "fantasy ... it's a long way from being passed yet | |||
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"the government got their arses handed to them today #titsup4thetories Really? The vote for the ammendment was won with a majority of just 4. I wouldn't call that having their arse handed to them by any stretch of the imagination. you've spent months shouting about how the government have a massive majority since the last GE .... so for the government to be thrashed tonight over their EU withdrawal bill they must have taken a monumental kicking according to your logic .... and just to remind you that you claims that the eu withdrawal bill was passed 13 weeks ago .... utter fantasy
Just to be clear the EU withdrawal bill is passed and WILL pass through Parliament. This vote today hasn't stopped the bill or stopped Brexit. The vote today just added an ammendment to the bill.
fantasy ... it's a long way from being passed yet"Like his fantasy that it was passed 13 weeks ago loooooooool | |||
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"I'm sure we can all join togther to celebrate the sovereignty of Parliament onve again, with Parliament getting a meaningful vote, possibly even a veto over the final Brexit deal. Many on here have said they didn't vote due to immigration, or the economics, but instead voted to bring power back to Parliament. So let's hear how happy you are!
It's great that Parliament is regaining it's sovereignty from the EU. Many EU laws have passed through Parliament over the last 40 years without hardly any scrutiny though so I do wonder why people like you didn't raise any concerns before about that. I think the most telling part of your OP though is where you say,..."possibly even a veto over the final brexit deal". The vote today was never about stopping Brexit, Dominic Grieve who tabled the ammendment said it was never about stopping Brexit. Some Tory Brexit MP's opposed to the ammendment raised concerns that the ammendment could be used by Remainers to try to derail or stop Brexit though, and with your OP you have let the cat out of the bag. It's crystal clear what your motivation is being in support of this ammendment. "unless you can tell us which laws have passed through with 'little scrutiny', once again its more than probable that its more bullshit from you.. no surprise though eh.. | |||
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"I'm sure we can all join togther to celebrate the sovereignty of Parliament onve again, with Parliament getting a meaningful vote, possibly even a veto over the final Brexit deal. Many on here have said they didn't vote due to immigration, or the economics, but instead voted to bring power back to Parliament. So let's hear how happy you are!
It's great that Parliament is regaining it's sovereignty from the EU. Many EU laws have passed through Parliament over the last 40 years without hardly any scrutiny though so I do wonder why people like you didn't raise any concerns before about that. I think the most telling part of your OP though is where you say,..."possibly even a veto over the final brexit deal". The vote today was never about stopping Brexit, Dominic Grieve who tabled the ammendment said it was never about stopping Brexit. Some Tory Brexit MP's opposed to the ammendment raised concerns that the ammendment could be used by Remainers to try to derail or stop Brexit though, and with your OP you have let the cat out of the bag. It's crystal clear what your motivation is being in support of this ammendment. "It means if May and Davis fuck up the deal, parliament can either send them back with a small ammendment, or veto the whole thing and tell them to start over. It seems as though you are still struggling with the concept of parliamentary sovereignty. Parliament can stop Brexit at any time it wants. | |||
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"I'm sure we can all join togther to celebrate the sovereignty of Parliament onve again, with Parliament getting a meaningful vote, possibly even a veto over the final Brexit deal. Many on here have said they didn't vote due to immigration, or the economics, but instead voted to bring power back to Parliament. So let's hear how happy you are!
It's great that Parliament is regaining it's sovereignty from the EU. Many EU laws have passed through Parliament over the last 40 years without hardly any scrutiny though so I do wonder why people like you didn't raise any concerns before about that. I think the most telling part of your OP though is where you say,..."possibly even a veto over the final brexit deal". The vote today was never about stopping Brexit, Dominic Grieve who tabled the ammendment said it was never about stopping Brexit. Some Tory Brexit MP's opposed to the ammendment raised concerns that the ammendment could be used by Remainers to try to derail or stop Brexit though, and with your OP you have let the cat out of the bag. It's crystal clear what your motivation is being in support of this ammendment.
It means if May and Davis fuck up the deal, parliament can either send them back with a small ammendment, or veto the whole thing and tell them to start over.
It seems as though you are still struggling with the concept of parliamentary sovereignty. Parliament can stop Brexit at any time it wants. "So I guess there's a better chance now of getting the brexit that parliament wants - which may not be the one Farage hoped for..... | |||
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"Has Farage tweeted yet..? He must be super happy! " He probably will.....do they realise that a possible outcome of this will be parliament voting down the “deal” that May and Davies bring back....and the EU then saying fine...out you go with no deal...a VERY hard Brexit. Garage would be over the moon! Unexpected consequences?? | |||
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"Has Farage tweeted yet..? He must be super happy! He probably will.....do they realise that a possible outcome of this will be parliament voting down the “deal” that May and Davies bring back....and the EU then saying fine...out you go with no deal...a VERY hard Brexit. Garage would be over the moon! Unexpected consequences??" i think this vote is the right thing, but it should never have been needed if the executive had not tried to sideline Parliament and had simply accepted as with other legislation the people we have elected have a proper say in it.. it will i think focus minds certainly with some of the more extreme views in the Tory party and could and should serve as a check on the negotiations.. only a very few, looking more isolated want a no deal or the hardest of brexits regardless and certainly not the EU.. | |||
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"the government got their arses handed to them today #titsup4thetories Really? The vote for the ammendment was won with a majority of just 4. I wouldn't call that having their arse handed to them by any stretch of the imagination. you've spent months shouting about how the government have a massive majority since the last GE .... so for the government to be thrashed tonight over their EU withdrawal bill they must have taken a monumental kicking according to your logic .... and just to remind you that you claims that the eu withdrawal bill was passed 13 weeks ago .... utter fantasy
Just to be clear the EU withdrawal bill is passed and WILL pass through Parliament. This vote today hasn't stopped the bill or stopped Brexit. The vote today just added an ammendment to the bill. "Fantasy springs to mind 13 weeks springs to mind | |||
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"I'm sure we can all join togther to celebrate the sovereignty of Parliament onve again, with Parliament getting a meaningful vote, possibly even a veto over the final Brexit deal. Many on here have said they didn't vote due to immigration, or the economics, but instead voted to bring power back to Parliament. So let's hear how happy you are!
It's great that Parliament is regaining it's sovereignty from the EU. Many EU laws have passed through Parliament over the last 40 years without hardly any scrutiny though so I do wonder why people like you didn't raise any concerns before about that. I think the most telling part of your OP though is where you say,..."possibly even a veto over the final brexit deal". The vote today was never about stopping Brexit, Dominic Grieve who tabled the ammendment said it was never about stopping Brexit. Some Tory Brexit MP's opposed to the ammendment raised concerns that the ammendment could be used by Remainers to try to derail or stop Brexit though, and with your OP you have let the cat out of the bag. It's crystal clear what your motivation is being in support of this ammendment. "The EU exit bill has not been passed. It is being debated and amended. That is what Parliamentary scrutiny is. I would like Brexit not to happen because myself and 48% of the population don't think that it's a good idea. I also think, but do not claim to know, that a proportion who voted to leave do not agree with the government's negotiating methods including the sidelining of Parliament and the passive support of criticising the judiciary. EU legislation does not start unless the Council of Ministers agrees and is scrutinised by the EU Parliament to which authority has been delegated although UKIP members have derelicted their duty in this regard. The application, interpretation and enforcement of all rules is down to national governments. This extends to their ability to limit immigration when the EU expanded to removing EU residents not working for extended periods. The government plans to enact its "corrections" to the statute book using what are known as Henry VIII powers, after the Statute of Proclamations 1539 which gave him the power to legislate by proclamation. This will not involve the usual Parliamentary scrutiny process which will lead to hasty, ill thought-out legislation. Should the British government have the power to create legislation without Parliamentary scrutiny? | |||
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Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!! | |||
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"Already the government have their spin-doctors out saying that yesterdays vote is meaningless in reality. Hinting although not actually saying that the Henery VIII Royal Prerogative powers granted to the government for two years under the brexit bill will allow the government to remove yesterdays amendment. Now the question has to be would the woman and cabinet who have consistently ignored the will of parliament whenever it has been in conflict with their agenda actually so debase our democracy? I would suggest yes." This is exactly why they were defeated. Not even their own MPs trust the Government's word. | |||
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"I would be all for this if we had a truly democratically voted Parliament ? But we don't !!! When 10 per cent of the uk vote equals 10 per cent of the seats we will
Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!!"There was an attempt to start the process of modifying this system by the LibDems. Apparently it wasn't wanted. | |||
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"This is exactly why they were defeated. Not even their own MPs trust the Government's word." But still the clause that gives them that power remains...  | |||
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"I would be all for this if we had a truly democratically voted Parliament ? But we don't !!! When 10 per cent of the uk vote equals 10 per cent of the seats we will
Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!!
There was an attempt to start the process of modifying this system by the LibDems. Apparently it wasn't wanted."This is a Ref Herring Arguement ! That wasn't a vote for P R or Percentage Votes for Seats it was a hotchpotch of an alternate vote scheme !!!!!! | |||
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"I would be all for this if we had a truly democratically voted Parliament ? But we don't !!! When 10 per cent of the uk vote equals 10 per cent of the seats we will
Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!!
There was an attempt to start the process of modifying this system by the LibDems. Apparently it wasn't wanted. This is a Ref Herring Arguement !
That wasn't a vote for P R or Percentage Votes for Seats it was a hotchpotch of an alternate vote scheme !!!!!!"It was an attempt to change the system. It was a compromise. Are you suggesting that PR with party lists so that some politicians are invulnerable is better? Complaining is easy isn't it?  | |||
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"I would be all for this if we had a truly democratically voted Parliament ? But we don't !!! When 10 per cent of the uk vote equals 10 per cent of the seats we will
Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!!
There was an attempt to start the process of modifying this system by the LibDems. Apparently it wasn't wanted. This is a Ref Herring Arguement !
That wasn't a vote for P R or Percentage Votes for Seats it was a hotchpotch of an alternate vote scheme !!!!!!
It was an attempt to change the system. It was a compromise.
Are you suggesting that PR with party lists so that some politicians are invulnerable is better?
Complaining is easy isn't it? "No Complaining isn't easy ! Tho I do get your point about it allowing some MP s to be invulnerable 
Il have a think on a solution  | |||
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"I would be all for this if we had a truly democratically voted Parliament ? But we don't !!! When 10 per cent of the uk vote equals 10 per cent of the seats we will
Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!!"And on that basis the 2015 election would have returned a Tory/UKIP coalition....(just over 52% of votes). There would have been no 2016 election and a hard brexit wether we wanted it or not.... Still like the idea of your PR? | |||
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"And on that basis the 2015 election would have returned a Tory/UKIP coalition....(just over 52% of votes). There would have been no 2016 election and a hard brexit wether we wanted it or not.... Still like the idea of your PR?" For me I would accept that result for a change to a genuine PR system. | |||
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"I would be all for this if we had a truly democratically voted Parliament ? But we don't !!! When 10 per cent of the uk vote equals 10 per cent of the seats we will
Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!!
And on that basis the 2015 election would have returned a Tory/UKIP coalition....(just over 52% of votes). There would have been no 2016 election and a hard brexit wether we wanted it or not....
Still like the idea of your PR?"Not necessarily because the electorate would be educated to the type of voting system in place and "hopefully" more aware of the consequences of their vote. Because people voted in a certain way under an FPTP system, it does not mean that the same behaviour would occur with PR. | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise." Agreed. | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise." The European MEP elections are done on a PR system as is the Welsh assembly elections and the London assembly elections. It was UKIP who won the last MEP elections in the UK under a PR system and UKIP got 7 elected seats in the last Welsh assembly elections and 2 elected seats on the London assembly under PR voting systems. I'm glad to see Too Hot agrees with you that people are more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in under PR and the UKIP results under PR speak for themselves. | |||
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"I would be all for this if we had a truly democratically voted Parliament ? But we don't !!! When 10 per cent of the uk vote equals 10 per cent of the seats we will
Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!!
And on that basis the 2015 election would have returned a Tory/UKIP coalition....(just over 52% of votes). There would have been no 2016 election and a hard brexit wether we wanted it or not....
Still like the idea of your PR?"I Certainly do It was criminal all the UKIP voted counted for nothing !
This Re I forced my argument
Ta for reminding me | |||
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"I would be all for this if we had a truly democratically voted Parliament ? But we don't !!! When 10 per cent of the uk vote equals 10 per cent of the seats we will
Until then we don't have a true democracy .
If we did I would support this !
After all the referendum was on this basis !!!
And on that basis the 2015 election would have returned a Tory/UKIP coalition....(just over 52% of votes). There would have been no 2016 election and a hard brexit wether we wanted it or not....
Still like the idea of your PR?
Not necessarily because the electorate would be educated to the type of voting system in place and "hopefully" more aware of the consequences of their vote.
Because people voted in a certain way under an FPTP system, it does not mean that the same behaviour would occur with PR."It would also quite rightly let Scots living in England vote SNP and the Nortern Irish vote for the main parties if they wanted to | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise. The European MEP elections are done on a PR system as is the Welsh assembly elections and the London assembly elections. It was UKIP who won the last MEP elections in the UK under a PR system and UKIP got 7 elected seats in the last Welsh assembly elections and 2 elected seats on the London assembly under PR voting systems. I'm glad to see Too Hot agrees with you that people are more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in under PR and the UKIP results under PR speak for themselves. " Turn out for European elections? Have you done that cognitive bias thread yet?  | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise. The European MEP elections are done on a PR system as is the Welsh assembly elections and the London assembly elections. It was UKIP who won the last MEP elections in the UK under a PR system and UKIP got 7 elected seats in the last Welsh assembly elections and 2 elected seats on the London assembly under PR voting systems. I'm glad to see Too Hot agrees with you that people are more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in under PR and the UKIP results under PR speak for themselves. Turn out for European elections? " Perhaps a more important question is Turnout for the EU referendum? As a referendum is arguably PR in its purest form. The Turnout for the EU referendum was around 70% which was one of the highest turnouts in UK elections since the early 90's. And of course we know leave won with over a million more votes than Remain. | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise. The European MEP elections are done on a PR system as is the Welsh assembly elections and the London assembly elections. It was UKIP who won the last MEP elections in the UK under a PR system and UKIP got 7 elected seats in the last Welsh assembly elections and 2 elected seats on the London assembly under PR voting systems. I'm glad to see Too Hot agrees with you that people are more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in under PR and the UKIP results under PR speak for themselves. Turn out for European elections? Perhaps a more important question is Turnout for the EU referendum? As a referendum is arguably PR in its purest form. The Turnout for the EU referendum was around 70% which was one of the highest turnouts in UK elections since the early 90's. And of course we know leave won with over a million more votes than Remain. "Turnout for European elections? | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise. The European MEP elections are done on a PR system as is the Welsh assembly elections and the London assembly elections. It was UKIP who won the last MEP elections in the UK under a PR system and UKIP got 7 elected seats in the last Welsh assembly elections and 2 elected seats on the London assembly under PR voting systems. I'm glad to see Too Hot agrees with you that people are more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in under PR and the UKIP results under PR speak for themselves. Turn out for European elections? Perhaps a more important question is Turnout for the EU referendum? As a referendum is arguably PR in its purest form. The Turnout for the EU referendum was around 70% which was one of the highest turnouts in UK elections since the early 90's. And of course we know leave won with over a million more votes than Remain.
Turnout for European elections?"UK Turnout for European elections? 1979 32.35% 1984 32.57% 1989 36.37% 1994 36.43% 1999 24% 2004 38.52% 2009 34.7% 2014 35.60% Didn't take them very seriously did we ?  | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise. The European MEP elections are done on a PR system as is the Welsh assembly elections and the London assembly elections. It was UKIP who won the last MEP elections in the UK under a PR system and UKIP got 7 elected seats in the last Welsh assembly elections and 2 elected seats on the London assembly under PR voting systems. I'm glad to see Too Hot agrees with you that people are more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in under PR and the UKIP results under PR speak for themselves. Turn out for European elections? Perhaps a more important question is Turnout for the EU referendum? As a referendum is arguably PR in its purest form. The Turnout for the EU referendum was around 70% which was one of the highest turnouts in UK elections since the early 90's. And of course we know leave won with over a million more votes than Remain.
Turnout for European elections?
UK Turnout for European elections?
1979 32.35%
1984 32.57%
1989 36.37%
1994 36.43%
1999 24%
2004 38.52%
2009 34.7%
2014 35.60%
Didn't take them very seriously did we ? "No, and then our elected officials were only against the result of something like 2% of the issues voted on in the European elections. Despite the majority of those elected officials being UKIP. So honestly, beyond ignorant pub banter, and general xenophobia and racism, we didn't actually have any problem with the EU, and neither did those who we elected to go there and represent us. -Matt | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise. The European MEP elections are done on a PR system as is the Welsh assembly elections and the London assembly elections. It was UKIP who won the last MEP elections in the UK under a PR system and UKIP got 7 elected seats in the last Welsh assembly elections and 2 elected seats on the London assembly under PR voting systems. I'm glad to see Too Hot agrees with you that people are more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in under PR and the UKIP results under PR speak for themselves. Turn out for European elections? Perhaps a more important question is Turnout for the EU referendum? As a referendum is arguably PR in its purest form. The Turnout for the EU referendum was around 70% which was one of the highest turnouts in UK elections since the early 90's. And of course we know leave won with over a million more votes than Remain.
Turnout for European elections?
UK Turnout for European elections?
1979 32.35%
1984 32.57%
1989 36.37%
1994 36.43%
1999 24%
2004 38.52%
2009 34.7%
2014 35.60%
Didn't take them very seriously did we ?
No, and then our elected officials were only against the result of something like 2% of the issues voted on in the European elections. Despite the majority of those elected officials being UKIP.
So honestly, beyond ignorant pub banter, and general xenophobia and racism, we didn't actually have any problem with the EU, and neither did those who we elected to go there and represent us.
-Matt"You two went and spoilt it with research and information. I was hoping Centaur would do a little thinking. I can hope
Century - done that cognitive bias thread yet? | |||
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"Under PR people would be more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in. Many more people would vote Green for example, as at the moment in most areas it's a fruitless excercise. The European MEP elections are done on a PR system as is the Welsh assembly elections and the London assembly elections. It was UKIP who won the last MEP elections in the UK under a PR system and UKIP got 7 elected seats in the last Welsh assembly elections and 2 elected seats on the London assembly under PR voting systems. I'm glad to see Too Hot agrees with you that people are more incentivised to vote for what they actually believe in under PR and the UKIP results under PR speak for themselves. Turn out for European elections? Perhaps a more important question is Turnout for the EU referendum? As a referendum is arguably PR in its purest form. The Turnout for the EU referendum was around 70% which was one of the highest turnouts in UK elections since the early 90's. And of course we know leave won with over a million more votes than Remain.
Turnout for European elections?
UK Turnout for European elections?
1979 32.35%
1984 32.57%
1989 36.37%
1994 36.43%
1999 24%
2004 38.52%
2009 34.7%
2014 35.60%
Didn't take them very seriously did we ?
No, and then our elected officials were only against the result of something like 2% of the issues voted on in the European elections. Despite the majority of those elected officials being UKIP.
So honestly, beyond ignorant pub banter, and general xenophobia and racism, we didn't actually have any problem with the EU, and neither did those who we elected to go there and represent us.
-Matt
You two went and spoilt it with research and information. I was hoping Centaur would do a little thinking.
I can hope
Century - done that cognitive bias thread yet?"Centaur* | |||
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