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interesting article

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Just came across this and found it really interesting.

Would be great to see what others think.

Be warned it is quite long

As the sixth round of Brexit negotiations got underway recently, the UK found itself trying to navigate its way through the most treacherous political waters seen in our lifetime.

A weak government, led by a sacrificial lamb Prime Minister and a cabinet seemingly incapable of “getting on with the job” – to coin one of Mrs May’s most over-used phrases – is struggling to stay afloat. Internally, they are hounded by an opposition ready to seize upon the uncertainty and do whatever it takes to further destabilize the government in the hope that it will get them elected.

Externally, they are up against an EU that sticks rigidly to a strategy that is seldom discussed but also appears designed to destabilize the government in the hope that it will lead to a second referendum. Both the opposition and the EU add fuel to each other’s fire. Add to the mix a 52% to 48% referendum result, a minority government that attracts increasing speculation that it won’t last and a sensationalist media, hungry for any crumb of controversy. It’s difficult to see how the country could be any more divided or how things could get much worse.

Unfortunately, when political parties are involved, which by their very design are divisive and self-interested, there is every chance things will get worse – the sooner people recognise political parties en-masse are no longer fit for purpose, the better.

The EU’s Ally

The UK is the second largest of only nine net contributors from 27 EU countries and a net importer from the EU. Not only can the EU ill afford to let the UK leave, but if it were to do so without paying a substantial “divorce bill” there is the real possibility the EU would collapse. That is why, when Article 50 was initially triggered, they adopted a strategy of exploiting the UK’s uncertainty around leaving, to extract as high as payment as possible. Realistically it was their only choice and stalling negotiations on trade should never have been a surprise to anyone.

However, they were handed something of a lifeline when Theresa May called a general election on 8th June 2017 and failed to win a majority.

It gave them a potential ally inside the country – the Labour Party. It meant the EU could continue to undermine the government with accusations over slow negotiation progress, whilst showing warmth towards the Labour Party and its leader Jeremy Corbyn, in return for the “promise” of another referendum if they came to power.

It’s no surprise that since meeting with the EU leaders in October, Jeremy Corbyn has publically declared he would now vote remain, despite voting against EU membership in 1975, against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009 and against the EU in virtually every other vote ever held. There’s nothing like the whiff of power to change a man’s principles. Similarly, it’s interesting to hear Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, confirm that the party may back a further Brexit referendum.

At the heart of the EU’s strategy is the fact that the longer Brexit negotiations go on without meaningful progress, the more uncertainty will be exploited to strike fear into the population at large. With the UK doing a great job of pulling itself apart, the EU doesn’t feel the need to negotiate a deal at this time with this government; it’s simply not in their interests because the greater the fear is, the more likely the government is to fall.

Yet, the longer this strategy is pursued and this government does remain, the outcome of a ‘No Deal’ becomes more likely. Whilst a ‘No Deal’ cannot be considered positive for the UK and would have short-term repercussions, it is also a long way from the Armageddon some would suggest. But for the EU, the consequences could be grave – and it would no doubt force them to the negotiating table at the eleventh hour.

Donald Tusk’s two-week ultimatum threat to the government was clear evidence they are impatient for change and recognise the longer this government remains, the less secure their own position becomes. It was not designed to progress the negotiations, but rather to further weaken the government. A strong government, with a country prepared for ‘No Deal’, would feel little need to respond.

However, if the government is removed and a second referendum is called on the same basis as the first, the situation is no less uncertain and could easily be worse.

A Second In/Out Referendum Would be a Disaster

A YouGov poll on 8th November suggested 46% of voters thought it was a wrong decision to leave the EU, 42% thought it was right and 12% didn’t know. It might point to a slight shift in attitudes – although it is worth noting that similar polls prior to the first vote were more indicative of Remain than this and we know how that turned out – but it is still very divided and unpredictable.

Re-running elections until you get the result you want, as the EU did post-Ireland’s initial refusal to back the Lisbon Treaty, is not democracy. If the UK were to pursue a second referendum on the same basis as the first, the country should expect a strong reaction from those believing it to be a betrayal of democracy. Whilst campaigning for the first referendum was often hostile and dishonest, it would not be a surprise to see a second referendum degenerate into unrest – leaving many to question whether a trade split from Europe is preferable to a breakdown in society within the country.

If a second referendum ended with Remain vote, the ramifications would last for decades but it would be no better if a re-vote ended with a repeat of Brexit. The country would remain equally divided, yet more embittered, the UK would leave the EU most likely without a deal and the EU would probably collapse.

There is simply no good outcome for the UK to a second referendum run on the same basis as the first. What might appear good for the Labour Party, would be a disaster for the country as a whole. Both the opposition and the EU are playing with fire and the UK will suffer regardless of the result.

A Possible Alternative?

Perhaps if the EU was prepared to think differently, there might be scope and justification for a second referendum. What if a second referendum was not based the conditions for the UK leaving, but rather on a deal for the UK to remain? Almost two years after treating David Cameron with contempt because they believed a Leave result was inconceivable, the EU could wake up to the realities sweeping across Europe and provide a raft of concessions that would encourage the UK to stay. With sufficient vision and leadership, the EU could retain the value the UK brings, Remainers could be part of Europe and Leavers could feel their actions had delivered necessary change. In other words, a solution that offers all sides a way out of this unseemly mess.

Conclusion

The future of Europe is very much in the EU’s hands, and the next 18 months will determine whether they deserve to exist. They have a second chance to make things right but only if they act with the necessary humility to deliver what people want, rather than following a grand plan that no one anywhere has ever had the opportunity to endorse. Great clubs always listen to and act in the interests of their members, and never threaten those who chose to join elsewhere.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nice and balanced.

It shows how democracy is a terrible vehicle for grand changes like this.

Imagine the management of a company going through a massive shift in its business model being distracted by continuous backstabbing, infighting and power struggle - it only distracts from the task at hand.

My best prediction (not that it's worth much) is on a bright future for all sides and no actual brexit.

Harikari may be honorable at times but it's still stupid.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Aha from off the UKIP website ?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Dunno why you would think it's off a UKIP site

It actually comes from a site called the market mogul check it out

Tell me if it's a UKIP supporting site

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

Reads like Brexit fan fiction.

As I said in another thread on here if the EU members want to entirely replace the UKs contribution all that would need to happen is for the 27 governments to use 0.1% of their budgets for additional funding. The EU is not expensive to run and nor does it require a significant amount of any countries resources.

The absolutely ludicrous idea that the entire EU project thats lasted 60 years is going to fall apart for the sake of 1/1000 of a countries budget is insanity.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"Reads like Brexit fan fiction.

As I said in another thread on here if the EU members want to entirely replace the UKs contribution all that would need to happen is for the 27 governments to use 0.1% of their budgets for additional funding. The EU is not expensive to run and nor does it require a significant amount of any countries resources.

The absolutely ludicrous idea that the entire EU project thats lasted 60 years is going to fall apart for the sake of 1/1000 of a countries budget is insanity."

Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK."

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

"

Very true blue

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

"

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result. "

Dohhh they never got elected lol

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

Dohhh they never got elected lol "

Makes no difference. They could have said they would've honoured their promises if they'd won. They didn't though, Corbyn ditched his commitment to cancelling student debt within days of the result. All those students who voted Labour now know Corbyn and Labour can't be trusted.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

Dohhh they never got elected lol

Makes no difference. They could have said they would've honoured their promises if they'd won. They didn't though, Corbyn ditched his commitment to cancelling student debt within days of the result. All those students who voted Labour now know Corbyn and Labour can't be trusted. "

Its not news or anything to have a go at them for...you know the reason dont you why....as with every post of yours its all misinformation from you...do you need to be proved wrong yet again

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin


"Reads like Brexit fan fiction.

As I said in another thread on here if the EU members want to entirely replace the UKs contribution all that would need to happen is for the 27 governments to use 0.1% of their budgets for additional funding. The EU is not expensive to run and nor does it require a significant amount of any countries resources.

The absolutely ludicrous idea that the entire EU project thats lasted 60 years is going to fall apart for the sake of 1/1000 of a countries budget is insanity.

Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK."

The UKs net contribution isnt 10 billion, its less than that.

The divorce payment isnt 30 billion, its a lot more than that.

Why should anyone else cover the UKs debts?

The EU hasnt caused any fuss. The UK decided to back out of agreements and then dragged out accepting the bill for months. In the end the UK is covering everything that they were told to in the begining.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham


"Reads like Brexit fan fiction.

As I said in another thread on here if the EU members want to entirely replace the UKs contribution all that would need to happen is for the 27 governments to use 0.1% of their budgets for additional funding. The EU is not expensive to run and nor does it require a significant amount of any countries resources.

The absolutely ludicrous idea that the entire EU project thats lasted 60 years is going to fall apart for the sake of 1/1000 of a countries budget is insanity."

The latest figures that I can see, show the cost of actually running the EU, to be around E8.7 billion.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

I heard an interesting comment from a Tory grandee...

When the cost of Brexit fully emerges we will see that we are better off when the cost is spread over the next 40 years. I don'y know how accurate this estimate is, but considering the governments refusal to divulge anything that is in anyway brexit negative I have a nasty feeling that this is probably close to the truth.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As someone less entrenched than most of you lot I read it as being critical of both sides.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"As someone less entrenched than most of you lot I read it as being critical of both sides. "

I did. The last section seemed suportive of the eu offering what it should have done when Cameron went round pre-referendum. The suggestion being that a referendum on improved terms would get a Remain outcome. It hardly seems ukip stuff.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

Dohhh they never got elected lol "

Oh, that's ok then.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"I heard an interesting comment from a Tory grandee...

When the cost of Brexit fully emerges we will see that we are better off when the cost is spread over the next 40 years. I don'y know how accurate this estimate is, but considering the governments refusal to divulge anything that is in anyway brexit negative I have a nasty feeling that this is probably close to the truth."

I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time. "

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

Dohhh they never got elected lol

Oh, that's ok then. "

Btw they didnt ditch them...more information from your pal....the policy is still in place...they will scrap all tuition fee's....try reading the Labour manifesto...just cos your pal says its right doesn't mean it is

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

Dohhh they never got elected lol

Oh, that's ok then.

Btw they didnt ditch them...more information from your pal....the policy is still in place...they will scrap all tuition fee's....try reading the Labour manifesto...just cos your pal says its right doesn't mean it is "

You're wrong. If you read what I said properly then you'll see I said Corbyn and Labour ditched their commitment to cancelling all student debt, not student tuition fees. There is a clear difference between the two. Labour may still be committed to cancelling future tuition fees but they have abandoned their commitment to cancelling all existing student debt and they did so within days of the general election result.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK.

Now that sounds like a true blue brexiteer. Why would anyone demand that the Tories/brexiteers honour their word? After all the British people are willing to accept the Tories ditching their election promises within days days of being elected and if it is good enough for us then it is good enough for the EU...

Seems the EU beg to differ...

Maybe because they actually have principles and are not self-serving liars who will say and do anything to remain in power.

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

Dohhh they never got elected lol

Oh, that's ok then.

Btw they didnt ditch them...more information from your pal....the policy is still in place...they will scrap all tuition fee's....try reading the Labour manifesto...just cos your pal says its right doesn't mean it is

You're wrong. If you read what I said properly then you'll see I said Corbyn and Labour ditched their commitment to cancelling all student debt, not student tuition fees. There is a clear difference between the two. Labour may still be committed to cancelling future tuition fees but they have abandoned their commitment to cancelling all existing student debt and they did so within days of the general election result. "

They haven't ditched there plans...end of...again you can spin all you like....

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

Dohhh they never got elected lol

Oh, that's ok then.

Btw they didnt ditch them...more information from your pal....the policy is still in place...they will scrap all tuition fee's....try reading the Labour manifesto...just cos your pal says its right doesn't mean it is "

Cancelling all student debt and scrapping tuition fees are completely different things. Is cancelling existing student a manifesto promise?

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors."

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Here nyou go...i did warn you not to take anything your pal says seriously...as its spun in his little mind. read carefully

Comments made by Jeremy Corbyn in an interview just days before the General Election claiming he would “deal” with student debt have sparked a fiery debate about Labour promises to young voters.

It was widely reported at the time that the leader had “hinted” that he would eradicate historic debt for thousands of recent university leaders.

But the party has been accused of “lying” to students and graduates after a number of top names on the left denied that Corbyn had promised to “wipe” tuition fee debt after polling day.

Yesterday Corbyn himself clarified his stance, insisting on the Andrew Marr show that he had not made a commitment to abolish the debt because he didn’t know how much it would cost at that stage.

Corbyn told the BBC presenter: “I recognised it was a huge burden, I did not make a commitment we would write it off because I couldn’t at that stage.

“I pointed out we had written the manifesto in a short space of time because it was a surprise election but that we would look at ways of reducing that debt burden, recognising quite a lot of it is never going to be collected anyway and try and reduce that.”

The Andrew Marr Show

?

@MarrShow

"I did not make a commitment that we would write it off" says @jeremycorbyn on student debt #marr

8:55 AM - Jul 23, 2017

245 245 Replies 664 664 Retweets 730 730 likes

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While the party vowed to abolish tuition fees as part of their official election campaign, a promise to student debts - worth £100 billion - was not included in the Labour manifesto.

However, Tory universities minister Jo Johnson hit out at the Labour leader, writing in a blog on HuffPost UK: “Over five million people have student debt. Jeremy Corbyn told each of those people he would get rid of it.

“That was a deception, calculated to win people’s votes and trust - a promise thrown out as soon as the ballot boxes were opened.”

Almost two-thirds of under 25s (62%) voted for Labour in the election, with pollsters declaring age the “new dividing line in British politics”.

But who is right?

Here is what Corbyn told NME in that controversial interview just six days before the election.

He told the magazine: “Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden.”

“I don’t have the simple answer for it yet - I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all this - but I’m very well aware of that problem,” Corbyn continued.

“And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

Speaking yesterday, Corbyn said that shadow chancellor John McDonnell had now established a working party to look at this policy and that a statement about Labour’s plans would be announced at a later date.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Here nyou go...i did warn you not to take anything your pal says seriously...as its spun in his little mind. read carefully

Comments made by Jeremy Corbyn in an interview just days before the General Election claiming he would “deal” with student debt have sparked a fiery debate about Labour promises to young voters.

It was widely reported at the time that the leader had “hinted” that he would eradicate historic debt for thousands of recent university leaders.

But the party has been accused of “lying” to students and graduates after a number of top names on the left denied that Corbyn had promised to “wipe” tuition fee debt after polling day.

Yesterday Corbyn himself clarified his stance, insisting on the Andrew Marr show that he had not made a commitment to abolish the debt because he didn’t know how much it would cost at that stage.

Corbyn told the BBC presenter: “I recognised it was a huge burden, I did not make a commitment we would write it off because I couldn’t at that stage.

“I pointed out we had written the manifesto in a short space of time because it was a surprise election but that we would look at ways of reducing that debt burden, recognising quite a lot of it is never going to be collected anyway and try and reduce that.”

The Andrew Marr Show

?

@MarrShow

"I did not make a commitment that we would write it off" says @jeremycorbyn on student debt #marr

8:55 AM - Jul 23, 2017

245 245 Replies 664 664 Retweets 730 730 likes

Twitter Ads info and privacy

While the party vowed to abolish tuition fees as part of their official election campaign, a promise to student debts - worth £100 billion - was not included in the Labour manifesto.

However, Tory universities minister Jo Johnson hit out at the Labour leader, writing in a blog on HuffPost UK: “Over five million people have student debt. Jeremy Corbyn told each of those people he would get rid of it.

“That was a deception, calculated to win people’s votes and trust - a promise thrown out as soon as the ballot boxes were opened.”

Almost two-thirds of under 25s (62%) voted for Labour in the election, with pollsters declaring age the “new dividing line in British politics”.

But who is right?

Here is what Corbyn told NME in that controversial interview just six days before the election.

He told the magazine: “Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden.”

“I don’t have the simple answer for it yet - I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all this - but I’m very well aware of that problem,” Corbyn continued.

“And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

Speaking yesterday, Corbyn said that shadow chancellor John McDonnell had now established a working party to look at this policy and that a statement about Labour’s plans would be announced at a later date.

"

Another long winded way of saying Corbyn and Labour abandoned their commitment to cancelling student debt (which has nothing to do with tuition fees). Even if it wasn't written in the manifesto Corbyn made a verbal commitment to cancel the student debt.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"Reads like Brexit fan fiction.

As I said in another thread on here if the EU members want to entirely replace the UKs contribution all that would need to happen is for the 27 governments to use 0.1% of their budgets for additional funding. The EU is not expensive to run and nor does it require a significant amount of any countries resources.

The absolutely ludicrous idea that the entire EU project thats lasted 60 years is going to fall apart for the sake of 1/1000 of a countries budget is insanity.

Don't know why they're fussing over any brexit bill then.... If all it takes is just 0.1% to replace 10 billion, then another 0.3% for one year for another 30 Billion hardly seems worth all the months and months of fuss they've caused. Unless, of course, there is some truth in them wanting to punish the UK."

Why should they not punished the UK?

Out of interest.

Either way, how does saying or believing that help?

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place! "

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Seeing as you bring up ditching election promises, wasn't it Corbyn and Labour who ditched their election promise to cancel all student debt within days of the general election result.

Dohhh they never got elected lol

Oh, that's ok then.

Btw they didnt ditch them...more information from your pal....the policy is still in place...they will scrap all tuition fee's....try reading the Labour manifesto...just cos your pal says its right doesn't mean it is

Cancelling all student debt and scrapping tuition fees are completely different things. Is cancelling existing student a manifesto promise?"

It was...and they then admitted they couldn’t do it if/when they came into power.

It grieves me greatly to agree with Centaur.....as it’s a rare thing for me...but he was actually right on this point!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Here nyou go...i did warn you not to take anything your pal says seriously...as its spun in his little mind. read carefully

Comments made by Jeremy Corbyn in an interview just days before the General Election claiming he would “deal” with student debt have sparked a fiery debate about Labour promises to young voters.

It was widely reported at the time that the leader had “hinted” that he would eradicate historic debt for thousands of recent university leaders.

But the party has been accused of “lying” to students and graduates after a number of top names on the left denied that Corbyn had promised to “wipe” tuition fee debt after polling day.

Yesterday Corbyn himself clarified his stance, insisting on the Andrew Marr show that he had not made a commitment to abolish the debt because he didn’t know how much it would cost at that stage.

Corbyn told the BBC presenter: “I recognised it was a huge burden, I did not make a commitment we would write it off because I couldn’t at that stage.

“I pointed out we had written the manifesto in a short space of time because it was a surprise election but that we would look at ways of reducing that debt burden, recognising quite a lot of it is never going to be collected anyway and try and reduce that.”

The Andrew Marr Show

?

@MarrShow

"I did not make a commitment that we would write it off" says @jeremycorbyn on student debt #marr

8:55 AM - Jul 23, 2017

245 245 Replies 664 664 Retweets 730 730 likes

Twitter Ads info and privacy

While the party vowed to abolish tuition fees as part of their official election campaign, a promise to student debts - worth £100 billion - was not included in the Labour manifesto.

However, Tory universities minister Jo Johnson hit out at the Labour leader, writing in a blog on HuffPost UK: “Over five million people have student debt. Jeremy Corbyn told each of those people he would get rid of it.

“That was a deception, calculated to win people’s votes and trust - a promise thrown out as soon as the ballot boxes were opened.”

Almost two-thirds of under 25s (62%) voted for Labour in the election, with pollsters declaring age the “new dividing line in British politics”.

But who is right?

Here is what Corbyn told NME in that controversial interview just six days before the election.

He told the magazine: “Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden.”

“I don’t have the simple answer for it yet - I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all this - but I’m very well aware of that problem,” Corbyn continued.

“And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

Speaking yesterday, Corbyn said that shadow chancellor John McDonnell had now established a working party to look at this policy and that a statement about Labour’s plans would be announced at a later date.

Another long winded way of saying Corbyn and Labour abandoned their commitment to cancelling student debt (which has nothing to do with tuition fees). Even if it wasn't written in the manifesto Corbyn made a verbal commitment to cancel the student debt. "

The Labour party and JC said this BEFORE the election....they only said they would get rid of student fee's...yet more misinformation from our favourite UKIPER

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Here's What Jeremy Corbyn Actually Said About Student Debt Ahead Of The General Election

First of all, we want to get rid of student fees altogether ...

“We’ll do it as soon as we get in, and we’ll then introduce legislation to ensure that any student going from the 2017-18 academic year will not pay fees. They will pay them, but we’ll rebate them when we’ve got the legislation through – that’s fundamentally the principle behind it.

“Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden ...

“I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem ...

“And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

https://fullfact.org/education/student-debt-what-did-labour-say/

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead."

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both! "

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things "

Strange that dont you think...me i want better for my kids seems some dont

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things "

So house price rises are due to our membership of the EU? Oh, dear, so the EU is responsible for putting houses out of the reach of the younger generation!

Strong pound? I suggest you take a look at the history of the pound against all major currencies over the last 45 years...it's been gradually losing it's value.

Advances in Healthcare, you think they're all down to the EU?

Cheap prices? Most foodstuffs increased in price immediately following our entry into the EU. Butier, for example, quadrupled within 2 years, and yet the EU was selling it to Russia at less than it was costing us in 1973.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things "

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both! "

Do you realise that you quoted 3 different posts to arrive at your conclusion?

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By *utandbigMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it. "

My goodness what a boring post yawn yawn

You have convinced yourself

I find it laughable

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

My goodness what a boring post yawn yawn

You have convinced yourself

I find it laughable "

No one is forcing you to read here. If you find it boring perhaps you should go to the lounge and read some kiss, fuck, avoid threads. Maybe that's more on your level?

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By *utandbigMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

My goodness what a boring post yawn yawn

You have convinced yourself

I find it laughable

No one is forcing you to read here. If you find it boring perhaps you should go to the lounge and read some kiss, fuck, avoid threads. Maybe that's more on your level? "

No need to nasty now

Ha ha

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it. "

And still you blame the EU for Thatcherite era Keynesian monetary policy and the systematic transfer of wealth from the state and majority to the super rich and multinational corporations. House prices have risen exponentially due to the transfer of rented housing stock from public to private landlords. Food prices rose in the late 70's due to inflation caused by OPEC restricting oil production and causing a worldwide fuel crisis and recession. The reason this country is in such a state is because of UK fiscal policies, nothing else. In fact you and everyone else are 18 months or so away from finding out exactly how much of a power for good the EU has been for the UK because soon there will be no EU and ECHR restrictions on the ultra right wing unregulated free market capitalist model that this country has been convinced to adopt through years of propaganda pumped out daily by our media led by an Australasian who lives in America.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

My goodness what a boring post yawn yawn

You have convinced yourself

I find it laughable

No one is forcing you to read here. If you find it boring perhaps you should go to the lounge and read some kiss, fuck, avoid threads. Maybe that's more on your level?

No need to nasty now

Ha ha "

And you weren't being nasty in the first place by saying yawn, yawn, boring?

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By *utandbigMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

My goodness what a boring post yawn yawn

You have convinced yourself

I find it laughable

No one is forcing you to read here. If you find it boring perhaps you should go to the lounge and read some kiss, fuck, avoid threads. Maybe that's more on your level?

No need to nasty now

Ha ha

And you weren't being nasty in the first place by saying yawn, yawn, boring? "

So me saying yawn and boring is nasty is it

Please get in the real world

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

And still you blame the EU for Thatcherite era Keynesian monetary policy and the systematic transfer of wealth from the state and majority to the super rich and multinational corporations. House prices have risen exponentially due to the transfer of rented housing stock from public to private landlords. Food prices rose in the late 70's due to inflation caused by OPEC restricting oil production and causing a worldwide fuel crisis and recession. The reason this country is in such a state is because of UK fiscal policies, nothing else. In fact you and everyone else are 18 months or so away from finding out exactly how much of a power for good the EU has been for the UK because soon there will be no EU and ECHR restrictions on the ultra right wing unregulated free market capitalist model that this country has been convinced to adopt through years of propaganda pumped out daily by our media led by an Australasian who lives in America."

And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

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By *utandbigMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth


"These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

And still you blame the EU for Thatcherite era Keynesian monetary policy and the systematic transfer of wealth from the state and majority to the super rich and multinational corporations. House prices have risen exponentially due to the transfer of rented housing stock from public to private landlords. Food prices rose in the late 70's due to inflation caused by OPEC restricting oil production and causing a worldwide fuel crisis and recession. The reason this country is in such a state is because of UK fiscal policies, nothing else. In fact you and everyone else are 18 months or so away from finding out exactly how much of a power for good the EU has been for the UK because soon there will be no EU and ECHR restrictions on the ultra right wing unregulated free market capitalist model that this country has been convinced to adopt through years of propaganda pumped out daily by our media led by an Australasian who lives in America.

And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU. "
:-

I have never said anything about Corbyn or the labour government in any of my posts please look back in them all and you won’t find anything from mentioning them

I think you need to take a chill pill your comments about leaving you are trying to convince people it’s the right thing

Yes we all know were leaving but half of this country probbally more now than the referendum are sick and tired of the cock ups the Conservative party are makeing If it

Just chill out and stop trying to convince people we’re alk mad

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

And still you blame the EU for Thatcherite era Keynesian monetary policy and the systematic transfer of wealth from the state and majority to the super rich and multinational corporations. House prices have risen exponentially due to the transfer of rented housing stock from public to private landlords. Food prices rose in the late 70's due to inflation caused by OPEC restricting oil production and causing a worldwide fuel crisis and recession. The reason this country is in such a state is because of UK fiscal policies, nothing else. In fact you and everyone else are 18 months or so away from finding out exactly how much of a power for good the EU has been for the UK because soon there will be no EU and ECHR restrictions on the ultra right wing unregulated free market capitalist model that this country has been convinced to adopt through years of propaganda pumped out daily by our media led by an Australasian who lives in America.

And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU. :-

I have never said anything about Corbyn or the labour government in any of my posts please look back in them all and you won’t find anything from mentioning them

I think you need to take a chill pill your comments about leaving you are trying to convince people it’s the right thing

Yes we all know were leaving but half of this country probbally more now than the referendum are sick and tired of the cock ups the Conservative party are makeing If it

Just chill out and stop trying to convince people we’re alk mad "

The post wasn't addressed to you. Go back and read the thread again. I quoted _illwill69u.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU. "

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

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By *utandbigMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?"

Please god help me

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

So house price rises are due to our membership of the EU? Oh, dear, so the EU is responsible for putting houses out of the reach of the younger generation!

Strong pound? I suggest you take a look at the history of the pound against all major currencies over the last 45 years...it's been gradually losing it's value.

Advances in Healthcare, you think they're all down to the EU?

Cheap prices? Most foodstuffs increased in price immediately following our entry into the EU. Butier, for example, quadrupled within 2 years, and yet the EU was selling it to Russia at less than it was costing us in 1973.

"

No to all of those things. However the Brexit generation have benefited from all of those things and have inherited a belief it was somehow down to themselves and consequently have achieved great things which mean that they can do perfectly well alone in the world...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?"

No he thinks the Labour party caused it along with this government and a more idiots that have been brainwashed by them

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

No he thinks the Labour party caused it along with this government and a more idiots that have been brainwashed by them "

The Labour party were partly to blame for what went on with the banks. It was Gordon Brown's massive deregulation of the banks leading upto the crash in 07/08 here in the UK that allowed the banks to get away with reckless behaviour and practices that caused the crash. As for Corbyn and McDonnel I think one listener who texted into the Jeremy Vine show on BBC radio 2 yesterday summed them up perfectly when he said, "Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel have about as much economic competence as my Dog!"

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

No he thinks the Labour party caused it along with this government and a more idiots that have been brainwashed by them

The Labour party were partly to blame for what went on with the banks. It was Gordon Brown's massive deregulation of the banks leading upto the crash in 07/08 here in the UK that allowed the banks to get away with reckless behaviour and practices that caused the crash. As for Corbyn and McDonnel I think one listener who texted into the Jeremy Vine show on BBC radio 2 yesterday summed them up perfectly when he said, "Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel have about as much economic competence as my Dog!" "

Why was it a global recession then? Oopps, back to the drawing board!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

No he thinks the Labour party caused it along with this government and a more idiots that have been brainwashed by them

The Labour party were partly to blame for what went on with the banks. It was Gordon Brown's massive deregulation of the banks leading upto the crash in 07/08 here in the UK that allowed the banks to get away with reckless behaviour and practices that caused the crash. As for Corbyn and McDonnel I think one listener who texted into the Jeremy Vine show on BBC radio 2 yesterday summed them up perfectly when he said, "Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel have about as much economic competence as my Dog!"

Why was it a global recession then? Oopps, back to the drawing board! "

Told ya...this guy cant see past the end of his nose

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

No he thinks the Labour party caused it along with this government and a more idiots that have been brainwashed by them

The Labour party were partly to blame for what went on with the banks. It was Gordon Brown's massive deregulation of the banks leading upto the crash in 07/08 here in the UK that allowed the banks to get away with reckless behaviour and practices that caused the crash. As for Corbyn and McDonnel I think one listener who texted into the Jeremy Vine show on BBC radio 2 yesterday summed them up perfectly when he said, "Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel have about as much economic competence as my Dog!"

Why was it a global recession then? Oopps, back to the drawing board!

Told ya...this guy cant see past the end of his nose "

Someone is in bad mood. Could it be because your team Arsenal got thrashed 3-1 by Man Utd earlier.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

No he thinks the Labour party caused it along with this government and a more idiots that have been brainwashed by them

The Labour party were partly to blame for what went on with the banks. It was Gordon Brown's massive deregulation of the banks leading upto the crash in 07/08 here in the UK that allowed the banks to get away with reckless behaviour and practices that caused the crash. As for Corbyn and McDonnel I think one listener who texted into the Jeremy Vine show on BBC radio 2 yesterday summed them up perfectly when he said, "Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel have about as much economic competence as my Dog!"

Why was it a global recession then? Oopps, back to the drawing board!

Told ya...this guy cant see past the end of his nose

Someone is in bad mood. Could it be because your team Arsenal got thrashed 3-1 by Man Utd earlier. "

Really winning the argument there Centaur

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

No he thinks the Labour party caused it along with this government and a more idiots that have been brainwashed by them

The Labour party were partly to blame for what went on with the banks. It was Gordon Brown's massive deregulation of the banks leading upto the crash in 07/08 here in the UK that allowed the banks to get away with reckless behaviour and practices that caused the crash. As for Corbyn and McDonnel I think one listener who texted into the Jeremy Vine show on BBC radio 2 yesterday summed them up perfectly when he said, "Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel have about as much economic competence as my Dog!"

Why was it a global recession then? Oopps, back to the drawing board!

Told ya...this guy cant see past the end of his nose

Someone is in bad mood. Could it be because your team Arsenal got thrashed 3-1 by Man Utd earlier. "

It actually was a great game...they didnt really get thrashed...but United did deserve to win

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it. "

"Old Dodgers" may have been a typo. Lucky that you focused on that as the most important point being raised

You are right. They do not think like I do. Well observed.

Your premise is that the UK has benefited in no way from membership of the EU and that our public services and infrastructure would be in a better state of we weren't. Can you explain how or why?

Also, the entire point of of my response was to state, quite clearly, that the generation that voted to join the EU wanted something better than they had. The generation that voted to leave have benefited from that and a myriad other factors which they appear to believe is due to their singular brilliance rather than dumb luck and pine for a past which their parents did not want.

You have totally and utterly missed the point.

Splendid

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"Just came across this and found it really interesting.

Would be great to see what others think.

Be warned it is quite long

As the sixth round of Brexit negotiations got underway recently, the UK found itself trying to navigate its way through the most treacherous political waters seen in our lifetime.

A weak government, led by a sacrificial lamb Prime Minister and a cabinet seemingly incapable of “getting on with the job” – to coin one of Mrs May’s most over-used phrases – is struggling to stay afloat. Internally, they are hounded by an opposition ready to seize upon the uncertainty and do whatever it takes to further destabilize the government in the hope that it will get them elected.

Externally, they are up against an EU that sticks rigidly to a strategy that is seldom discussed but also appears designed to destabilize the government in the hope that it will lead to a second referendum. Both the opposition and the EU add fuel to each other’s fire. Add to the mix a 52% to 48% referendum result, a minority government that attracts increasing speculation that it won’t last and a sensationalist media, hungry for any crumb of controversy. It’s difficult to see how the country could be any more divided or how things could get much worse.

Unfortunately, when political parties are involved, which by their very design are divisive and self-interested, there is every chance things will get worse – the sooner people recognise political parties en-masse are no longer fit for purpose, the better.

The EU’s Ally

The UK is the second largest of only nine net contributors from 27 EU countries and a net importer from the EU. Not only can the EU ill afford to let the UK leave, but if it were to do so without paying a substantial “divorce bill” there is the real possibility the EU would collapse. That is why, when Article 50 was initially triggered, they adopted a strategy of exploiting the UK’s uncertainty around leaving, to extract as high as payment as possible. Realistically it was their only choice and stalling negotiations on trade should never have been a surprise to anyone.

However, they were handed something of a lifeline when Theresa May called a general election on 8th June 2017 and failed to win a majority.

It gave them a potential ally inside the country – the Labour Party. It meant the EU could continue to undermine the government with accusations over slow negotiation progress, whilst showing warmth towards the Labour Party and its leader Jeremy Corbyn, in return for the “promise” of another referendum if they came to power.

It’s no surprise that since meeting with the EU leaders in October, Jeremy Corbyn has publically declared he would now vote remain, despite voting against EU membership in 1975, against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009 and against the EU in virtually every other vote ever held. There’s nothing like the whiff of power to change a man’s principles. Similarly, it’s interesting to hear Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, confirm that the party may back a further Brexit referendum.

At the heart of the EU’s strategy is the fact that the longer Brexit negotiations go on without meaningful progress, the more uncertainty will be exploited to strike fear into the population at large. With the UK doing a great job of pulling itself apart, the EU doesn’t feel the need to negotiate a deal at this time with this government; it’s simply not in their interests because the greater the fear is, the more likely the government is to fall.

Yet, the longer this strategy is pursued and this government does remain, the outcome of a ‘No Deal’ becomes more likely. Whilst a ‘No Deal’ cannot be considered positive for the UK and would have short-term repercussions, it is also a long way from the Armageddon some would suggest. But for the EU, the consequences could be grave – and it would no doubt force them to the negotiating table at the eleventh hour.

Donald Tusk’s two-week ultimatum threat to the government was clear evidence they are impatient for change and recognise the longer this government remains, the less secure their own position becomes. It was not designed to progress the negotiations, but rather to further weaken the government. A strong government, with a country prepared for ‘No Deal’, would feel little need to respond.

However, if the government is removed and a second referendum is called on the same basis as the first, the situation is no less uncertain and could easily be worse.

A Second In/Out Referendum Would be a Disaster

A YouGov poll on 8th November suggested 46% of voters thought it was a wrong decision to leave the EU, 42% thought it was right and 12% didn’t know. It might point to a slight shift in attitudes – although it is worth noting that similar polls prior to the first vote were more indicative of Remain than this and we know how that turned out – but it is still very divided and unpredictable.

Re-running elections until you get the result you want, as the EU did post-Ireland’s initial refusal to back the Lisbon Treaty, is not democracy. If the UK were to pursue a second referendum on the same basis as the first, the country should expect a strong reaction from those believing it to be a betrayal of democracy. Whilst campaigning for the first referendum was often hostile and dishonest, it would not be a surprise to see a second referendum degenerate into unrest – leaving many to question whether a trade split from Europe is preferable to a breakdown in society within the country.

If a second referendum ended with Remain vote, the ramifications would last for decades but it would be no better if a re-vote ended with a repeat of Brexit. The country would remain equally divided, yet more embittered, the UK would leave the EU most likely without a deal and the EU would probably collapse.

There is simply no good outcome for the UK to a second referendum run on the same basis as the first. What might appear good for the Labour Party, would be a disaster for the country as a whole. Both the opposition and the EU are playing with fire and the UK will suffer regardless of the result.

A Possible Alternative?

Perhaps if the EU was prepared to think differently, there might be scope and justification for a second referendum. What if a second referendum was not based the conditions for the UK leaving, but rather on a deal for the UK to remain? Almost two years after treating David Cameron with contempt because they believed a Leave result was inconceivable, the EU could wake up to the realities sweeping across Europe and provide a raft of concessions that would encourage the UK to stay. With sufficient vision and leadership, the EU could retain the value the UK brings, Remainers could be part of Europe and Leavers could feel their actions had delivered necessary change. In other words, a solution that offers all sides a way out of this unseemly mess.

Conclusion

The future of Europe is very much in the EU’s hands, and the next 18 months will determine whether they deserve to exist. They have a second chance to make things right but only if they act with the necessary humility to deliver what people want, rather than following a grand plan that no one anywhere has ever had the opportunity to endorse. Great clubs always listen to and act in the interests of their members, and never threaten those who chose to join elsewhere.

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"

Back to the point in hand though. This is not a balanced article but it tries to give the impression that it is.

It essentially implies that despite a chaotic British position the reason that we are getting a bad deal is due to opposition parties and the EU being short sighted and foolish.

The author believes that the EU are in a very weak position and on the verge of collapse.

The only statistics or data present this point of view.

This is cognitive bias at work. Cherry picking data that supports one position.

It is equally possible to present an exactly opposite position.

The reality is somewhere in between. The EU will be significantly diminished without the UK, but from the perspective of a negotiation and for the short to medium term we need them far, far more than they need us.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?"

Well it's not just the Bank Morgan Stanley who are warning of economic catastrophe if a Corbyn Labour government get elected, now Labours own activists are saying it. A top Corbynista has admitted that Labour's nationalisation plans could leave the country "fucked". Leftie activist Mika Minio-Paluello, who sits on the high level Labour energy forum, warned the cost of taking over rail, mail and energy firms risks wrecking people's pensions. Ms Minio-Paluello told a political event it would see pensions "Fucked". She said, "On Specifics, we nationalise shit, but those companies have lots of debt. Now, if we don't keep paying that debt the UK's credit rating is fucked and we can't borrow money". Ms Minio-Paluello told the meeting "I'm chair of my local branch and I've also been doing various advice for Corbyn's team and central office". So there you have it even Labour's own high level activists know Corbyn's spending plans would be disastrous for the country. Easy for you to dismiss Bank Morgan Stanley's comments not so much when those warnings come from within the Labour party itself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

Well it's not just the Bank Morgan Stanley who are warning of economic catastrophe if a Corbyn Labour government get elected, now Labours own activists are saying it. A top Corbynista has admitted that Labour's nationalisation plans could leave the country "fucked". Leftie activist Mika Minio-Paluello, who sits on the high level Labour energy forum, warned the cost of taking over rail, mail and energy firms risks wrecking people's pensions. Ms Minio-Paluello told a political event it would see pensions "Fucked". She said, "On Specifics, we nationalise shit, but those companies have lots of debt. Now, if we don't keep paying that debt the UK's credit rating is fucked and we can't borrow money". Ms Minio-Paluello told the meeting "I'm chair of my local branch and I've also been doing various advice for Corbyn's team and central office". So there you have it even Labour's own high level activists know Corbyn's spending plans would be disastrous for the country. Easy for you to dismiss Bank Morgan Stanley's comments not so much when those warnings come from within the Labour party itself. "

And what do you think QE has been doing for pensions?

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

Well it's not just the Bank Morgan Stanley who are warning of economic catastrophe if a Corbyn Labour government get elected, now Labours own activists are saying it. A top Corbynista has admitted that Labour's nationalisation plans could leave the country "fucked". Leftie activist Mika Minio-Paluello, who sits on the high level Labour energy forum, warned the cost of taking over rail, mail and energy firms risks wrecking people's pensions. Ms Minio-Paluello told a political event it would see pensions "Fucked". She said, "On Specifics, we nationalise shit, but those companies have lots of debt. Now, if we don't keep paying that debt the UK's credit rating is fucked and we can't borrow money". Ms Minio-Paluello told the meeting "I'm chair of my local branch and I've also been doing various advice for Corbyn's team and central office". So there you have it even Labour's own high level activists know Corbyn's spending plans would be disastrous for the country. Easy for you to dismiss Bank Morgan Stanley's comments not so much when those warnings come from within the Labour party itself. "

So why is Morgan Stanley's negative opinion on Corbyn relevant if every single bank and economic negative opinion on Brexit nonsense?

Skipped the challenge about your previous post was nonsense though.

You really are in a cognitively biased cul-de-sac aren't you?

I don't believe that you've ever even acknowledged the validity of any contradictory information. I'd it doesn't fit you don't explain it. You consistently ignore it or trot out a campaign phrase

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

Well it's not just the Bank Morgan Stanley who are warning of economic catastrophe if a Corbyn Labour government get elected, now Labours own activists are saying it. A top Corbynista has admitted that Labour's nationalisation plans could leave the country "fucked". Leftie activist Mika Minio-Paluello, who sits on the high level Labour energy forum, warned the cost of taking over rail, mail and energy firms risks wrecking people's pensions. Ms Minio-Paluello told a political event it would see pensions "Fucked". She said, "On Specifics, we nationalise shit, but those companies have lots of debt. Now, if we don't keep paying that debt the UK's credit rating is fucked and we can't borrow money". Ms Minio-Paluello told the meeting "I'm chair of my local branch and I've also been doing various advice for Corbyn's team and central office". So there you have it even Labour's own high level activists know Corbyn's spending plans would be disastrous for the country. Easy for you to dismiss Bank Morgan Stanley's comments not so much when those warnings come from within the Labour party itself.

So why is Morgan Stanley's negative opinion on Corbyn relevant if every single bank and economic negative opinion on Brexit nonsense?

Skipped the challenge about your previous post was nonsense though.

You really are in a cognitively biased cul-de-sac aren't you?

I don't believe that you've ever even acknowledged the validity of any contradictory information. I'd it doesn't fit you don't explain it. You consistently ignore it or trot out a campaign phrase "

It may have passed you by but Brexit is already happening. The banks and economic experts forecasts about Brexit have so far already been proved to be wrong. Remember the economist's admitting to their 'Michael Fish moment over Brexit'. Yet people like you fail to acknowledge it. Besides a Corbyn Labour government is an entirely separate issue and is yet to happen, economists warnings about a Corbyn Labour government have not been proved wrong. If anyone is in a cognitively biased cul-de-sac it seems to be you. You don't seem to acknowledge the validity of any contradictory information, like many remainers you just dismiss it out of hand. You are so wrapped up in your own confirmation bias you just look for any negative news about Brexit and dismiss any positive stories out of hand.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"And yet you think someone like Corbyn and Labour are somehow the savior? Corbyn and his shadow chancellor John McDonnel have publicly admitted to making contingency plans for a run on the pound should they ever be elected into power. Just 3 days ago the bank Morgan Stanley warned that a Corbyn Labour government would see the UK go into economic meltdown on a scale that would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. For the record those super rich multinational corporations you are always ranting against campaigned for remain, because they know the EU is a corrupt protection racket where they can use the lobby rooms in Brussels to make their own rules. They can crush competition and put small businesses to the wall so they can have a monopoly on everything! You are on their side if you are with the EU.

Yep.

JC has said there may be a run on the £ if he is elected, why would that be? Why was there a run on the £ in 1992 and every other currency that entered the ERM? Both have the same core reason, one was and the other is a threat to US corporate profiteering.

You quote the the CEO of Morgan Stanley, would that just happen to be the same Morgan Stanley that was one of the prime movers that caused the 2008 financial crisis that required the US federal reserve to bail them out to the tune of $29 TRILLION and some £1.5 TRILLION in quantitative easing between 2008 and 2014 + £500 BILLION+ in direct bank bailouts in 2008? Sounds like just the man to believe, doesn't he, after all he would not be looking for a way to swindle the UK out of every penny he can lay his mitts on would he?

Well it's not just the Bank Morgan Stanley who are warning of economic catastrophe if a Corbyn Labour government get elected, now Labours own activists are saying it. A top Corbynista has admitted that Labour's nationalisation plans could leave the country "fucked". Leftie activist Mika Minio-Paluello, who sits on the high level Labour energy forum, warned the cost of taking over rail, mail and energy firms risks wrecking people's pensions. Ms Minio-Paluello told a political event it would see pensions "Fucked". She said, "On Specifics, we nationalise shit, but those companies have lots of debt. Now, if we don't keep paying that debt the UK's credit rating is fucked and we can't borrow money". Ms Minio-Paluello told the meeting "I'm chair of my local branch and I've also been doing various advice for Corbyn's team and central office". So there you have it even Labour's own high level activists know Corbyn's spending plans would be disastrous for the country. Easy for you to dismiss Bank Morgan Stanley's comments not so much when those warnings come from within the Labour party itself.

And what do you think QE has been doing for pensions?"

The current government has not nationalised anything and so is not liable for those companies debts. A Corbyn Labour government would have to do QE as well as paying debts on the companies they want to nationalise, which would be many times worse than what we have now. As for pensions since Brexit, the rise in FTSE has been good for private pensions as many private pensions are linked to the performance of the FTSE which has been rising since the Brexit vote, the FTSE all time high record was broken 3 times within the space of a week in December 2016.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

"Old Dodgers" may have been a typo. Lucky that you focused on that as the most important point being raised

You are right. They do not think like I do. Well observed.

Your premise is that the UK has benefited in no way from membership of the EU and that our public services and infrastructure would be in a better state of we weren't. Can you explain how or why?

Also, the entire point of of my response was to state, quite clearly, that the generation that voted to join the EU wanted something better than they had. The generation that voted to leave have benefited from that and a myriad other factors which they appear to believe is due to their singular brilliance rather than dumb luck and pine for a past which their parents did not want.

You have totally and utterly missed the point.

Splendid "

Not missed the point at all, you just completely ignored all the points I raised. What was it you were saying about being in a cognitive cul-de-sac in a previous post

Our public services and infrastructure would have been in a better state if we had been free from EU free movement of people rules and better able to set our own immigration limits. Things were reasonably good up until 2004 when Tony Blair and Labour opened to floodgates to Eastern Europe and let in millions of people without putting any transitional controls in place. The influx of these millions of people has had a negative impact on public services and infrastructure buckling under the strain of weight of numbers. You can't keep letting in a population the size of Newcastle every year and not expect it to have some sort of impact. Those sort of immigration figures are unsustainable and need to be controlled. Thankfully since the Brexit vote immigration numbers have started to begin to fall. Official figures showed last week immigration numbers are down around 100,000 on last year which is good but more still needs to be done to bring those numbers down further. Unfortunately though the damage to our public services and infrastructure has already been done over the last 10 to 15 years since 2004.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"as with every post of yours its all misinformation from you..."

That's a bit rich coming from the person who said the article was from the UKIP website.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

"Old Dodgers" may have been a typo. Lucky that you focused on that as the most important point being raised

You are right. They do not think like I do. Well observed.

Your premise is that the UK has benefited in no way from membership of the EU and that our public services and infrastructure would be in a better state of we weren't. Can you explain how or why?

Also, the entire point of of my response was to state, quite clearly, that the generation that voted to join the EU wanted something better than they had. The generation that voted to leave have benefited from that and a myriad other factors which they appear to believe is due to their singular brilliance rather than dumb luck and pine for a past which their parents did not want.

You have totally and utterly missed the point.

Splendid

Not missed the point at all, you just completely ignored all the points I raised. What was it you were saying about being in a cognitive cul-de-sac in a previous post

Our public services and infrastructure would have been in a better state if we had been free from EU free movement of people rules and better able to set our own immigration limits. Things were reasonably good up until 2004 when Tony Blair and Labour opened to floodgates to Eastern Europe and let in millions of people without putting any transitional controls in place. The influx of these millions of people has had a negative impact on public services and infrastructure buckling under the strain of weight of numbers. You can't keep letting in a population the size of Newcastle every year and not expect it to have some sort of impact. Those sort of immigration figures are unsustainable and need to be controlled. Thankfully since the Brexit vote immigration numbers have started to begin to fall. Official figures showed last week immigration numbers are down around 100,000 on last year which is good but more still needs to be done to bring those numbers down further. Unfortunately though the damage to our public services and infrastructure has already been done over the last 10 to 15 years since 2004. "

Then why didn't you do something about it? As you rightly say we didn't apply the EU control's - the only country not to do so. So you should have held the government to account - why didn't you?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Then why didn't you do something about it? As you rightly say we didn't apply the EU control's - the only country not to do so. So you should have held the government to account - why didn't you?"

Apart from voting against the then government at the next election what other ways are there for a citizen to hold a government to account?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

"Old Dodgers" may have been a typo. Lucky that you focused on that as the most important point being raised

You are right. They do not think like I do. Well observed.

Your premise is that the UK has benefited in no way from membership of the EU and that our public services and infrastructure would be in a better state of we weren't. Can you explain how or why?

Also, the entire point of of my response was to state, quite clearly, that the generation that voted to join the EU wanted something better than they had. The generation that voted to leave have benefited from that and a myriad other factors which they appear to believe is due to their singular brilliance rather than dumb luck and pine for a past which their parents did not want.

You have totally and utterly missed the point.

Splendid

Not missed the point at all, you just completely ignored all the points I raised. What was it you were saying about being in a cognitive cul-de-sac in a previous post

Our public services and infrastructure would have been in a better state if we had been free from EU free movement of people rules and better able to set our own immigration limits. Things were reasonably good up until 2004 when Tony Blair and Labour opened to floodgates to Eastern Europe and let in millions of people without putting any transitional controls in place. The influx of these millions of people has had a negative impact on public services and infrastructure buckling under the strain of weight of numbers. You can't keep letting in a population the size of Newcastle every year and not expect it to have some sort of impact. Those sort of immigration figures are unsustainable and need to be controlled. Thankfully since the Brexit vote immigration numbers have started to begin to fall. Official figures showed last week immigration numbers are down around 100,000 on last year which is good but more still needs to be done to bring those numbers down further. Unfortunately though the damage to our public services and infrastructure has already been done over the last 10 to 15 years since 2004.

Then why didn't you do something about it? As you rightly say we didn't apply the EU control's - the only country not to do so. So you should have held the government to account - why didn't you?"

Blair and labour never asked the British public permission to do it. Gordon Brown also promised the British public a referendum on the Lisbon treaty in the 00's and then went back on his word and signed it anyway, again without the permission of the public. I voted ukip after 2004 as that was the only option available to me. Thankfully Labour were kicked out in 2010 I was extremely pleased to see the back of them and they've been kept out ever since.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it. "

Holy fucking crap. What bollocks.

Just set aside any political pros/cons of any of this and lets just look purely at the numbers.

So you are saying that the 0.5% increase in our population due to net migration is causing all our housing crisis and pressure on the NHS etc etc. You don't by any chance think that it could be down to the government cutting funding for public services by vast amounts or failing to build (affordable) houses?

0.5%. That is all. Per annum. You think that that could not be dealt with by proper management of our country?

You are saying the reason I can't get a seat on a train is that there are now 0.5% more people in the UK each year, and not due to the (according to the gov's own figures) that the top 10 rail routes had between 60% and 122% over capacity?

I bet you probably believe, like Farage, that the motorway traffic is due to them damn immigrants too?

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

Holy fucking crap. What bollocks.

Just set aside any political pros/cons of any of this and lets just look purely at the numbers.

So you are saying that the 0.5% increase in our population due to net migration is causing all our housing crisis and pressure on the NHS etc etc. You don't by any chance think that it could be down to the government cutting funding for public services by vast amounts or failing to build (affordable) houses?

0.5%. That is all. Per annum. You think that that could not be dealt with by proper management of our country?

You are saying the reason I can't get a seat on a train is that there are now 0.5% more people in the UK each year, and not due to the (according to the gov's own figures) that the top 10 rail routes had between 60% and 122% over capacity?

I bet you probably believe, like Farage, that the motorway traffic is due to them damn immigrants too?

-Matt"

Point well made....this guy would blame the weather on the Labour party if he could...but dont listen to his BS...we all know why hes doing and we all know or should i say any sensible person knows what caused it....but then when your brainwashed and cant even condemn far right actions from various people...then you know what corner he stands in

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By *utandbigMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

Holy fucking crap. What bollocks.

Just set aside any political pros/cons of any of this and lets just look purely at the numbers.

So you are saying that the 0.5% increase in our population due to net migration is causing all our housing crisis and pressure on the NHS etc etc. You don't by any chance think that it could be down to the government cutting funding for public services by vast amounts or failing to build (affordable) houses?

0.5%. That is all. Per annum. You think that that could not be dealt with by proper management of our country?

You are saying the reason I can't get a seat on a train is that there are now 0.5% more people in the UK each year, and not due to the (according to the gov's own figures) that the top 10 rail routes had between 60% and 122% over capacity?

I bet you probably believe, like Farage, that the motorway traffic is due to them damn immigrants too?

-Matt

Point well made....this guy would blame the weather on the Labour party if he could...but dont listen to his BS...we all know why hes doing and we all know or should i say any sensible person knows what caused it....but then when your brainwashed and cant even condemn far right actions from various people...then you know what corner he stands in "

I’m afraid it’s in his blood

He’s been brainwashed by the kippers

Every thing is everybody’s fault and his posts are the same dreary so and so said this in there s programme so and so write in the daily fail that this will happen the dangers are he believes it all quite sad realy

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

"Old Dodgers" may have been a typo. Lucky that you focused on that as the most important point being raised

You are right. They do not think like I do. Well observed.

Your premise is that the UK has benefited in no way from membership of the EU and that our public services and infrastructure would be in a better state of we weren't. Can you explain how or why?

Also, the entire point of of my response was to state, quite clearly, that the generation that voted to join the EU wanted something better than they had. The generation that voted to leave have benefited from that and a myriad other factors which they appear to believe is due to their singular brilliance rather than dumb luck and pine for a past which their parents did not want.

You have totally and utterly missed the point.

Splendid

Not missed the point at all, you just completely ignored all the points I raised. What was it you were saying about being in a cognitive cul-de-sac in a previous post

Our public services and infrastructure would have been in a better state if we had been free from EU free movement of people rules and better able to set our own immigration limits. Things were reasonably good up until 2004 when Tony Blair and Labour opened to floodgates to Eastern Europe and let in millions of people without putting any transitional controls in place. The influx of these millions of people has had a negative impact on public services and infrastructure buckling under the strain of weight of numbers. You can't keep letting in a population the size of Newcastle every year and not expect it to have some sort of impact. Those sort of immigration figures are unsustainable and need to be controlled. Thankfully since the Brexit vote immigration numbers have started to begin to fall. Official figures showed last week immigration numbers are down around 100,000 on last year which is good but more still needs to be done to bring those numbers down further. Unfortunately though the damage to our public services and infrastructure has already been done over the last 10 to 15 years since 2004. "

Oh I am sorry old chap. I was under the impression that every single one of your points had been addressed by myself or somebody else line by line with evidence and explanations time after time in thread after thread. I had assumed, I now realise incorrectly, that you ignoring them meant that you weren't processing them

You must admit that it is quite amusing for you to be outraged at someone not directly responding to every element in one of your posts

When I have some time I am going to dedicate a thread to Brexit and cognitive bias. Do be sure to look in

In the meantime I will just reiterate a few things:

Most of what you are upset by has always been in the UK government's gift to control.

The British public sent a clear message that they don't like the way their country is. Need it provides no solution to this at all.

Cameron was slapped down because he tried to use the same bullying "negotiating" technique that is visibly failing now. We could have asked for additional funding to cover the marginal costs of concentrated immigration in certain areas instead of making shouty demands.

Is there corruption and waste in the EU. Yes. As in the UK. Fixing it will take forever. As in the UK.

On balance the UK benefits hugely in both industrial and financial terms through having an enormous and wealthy domestic market of 27 states with additional international trade deals leveraged on that basis.

Can I see any logic to getting better deals with more countries when we are a smaller market? No.

Do I think we have a strong negotiating position with Europe? No. The evidence appears to bear that out to date.

Do I think that access on China, the US or India's terms to their markets will benefit the UK? Only for a few individual companies. All in all we have nothing that they can't get anywhere else.

Did I think that Brexit would lead to instant economic Armageddon? No. A long, slow death of a thousand cuts as the UK only becomes attractive as a tax haven? Yes.

Am I poorer now than before the Brexit vote? Yes. I can buy less with every penny I earn.

Do I see Brexit generating any mass employment for the semi-skilled? No. Money will be spent on machinery rather than more expensive labour.

Do I see Parliament gaining any additional sovereignty? Not if the trend of the current government continues.

Can I see the rule of law remaining independent? Not the way I see the current government and press behaving.

Can I see a mechanism for raising money to pay for improved public services? No.

Have I heard a single coherent argument or concrete action to indicate that a single element of anyone's life will improve after Brexit? No.

Is the entire process infinitely more complicated than anyone was led to believe? Yes.

When you, inevitably, call me a remainder, please remember that the only advice that you will offer me in return is to "get on with 'it'", "be positive" and "get over 'it'. We will get a great trade deal from Trump who is well known to keep his promises and always work for mutual advantage. Other countries on the other side of the world like Australia and New Zealand would love to do a deal with us, after their EU deal and without objecting to our WTO status. Other wealthy ex Commonwealth countries would also love to buy all the stuff that we make with the small amount of money that they have. Also China would like to do an advantageous deal with us because they really want to buy things from us that they can't get anywhere else in the world.

Brexit is fairy dust and unicorn tears

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both!

Ironically, the current generation of old Dodgers have benefited most from the prosperity of unfettered market access, house price rises, advances in healthcare, cheap prices and holidays from a strong pound and foreign workers and good pensions.

The dead generation of the elderly were the ones who didn't want to see another war or not be able to afford medical treatment or food when things went wrong.

For some inexplicable reasons their children think that the the time in which this generation lived was better even though their parents tried their damndest to change things

These 'old Dodgers' as you call them clearly don't think like you do. You do realise not everyone thinks the same as you. They have seen the EU experiment morph from a simple trade deal called the common market with only a handful of countries in the 1970's into what the EU is today, a political union with control over law, business regulations and immigration with power centralised in Brussels and now suddenly those handful of countries has become 27 countries (28 including the uk) with more set to join in the near future. These old Dodgers have seen their communities changed (not always for the better) by mass uncontrolled immigration mainly from the EU thanks to free movement of people. They have seen their public services like Schools, hospitals and GP surgeries buckle under the strain from the influx of new people and despite this increasing prosperity you claim is down to the EU public services have got worse not better. You say house prices have increased as if this is a good thing? House prices have increased so much that the dream of buying a house for many first time buyers and the younger generation is now simply a pipe dream that they will never achieve getting their foot on the property ladder. Again this is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration making a shortage of housing stock which has inflated prices. Again in spite of this increased prosperity you claim is down to being a member of the EU roads are overly congested and in a shocking state of disrepair, many rail networks are also nearly full to capacity where people can't get seats so they have to stand for the duration of their journeys. Infrastructure has got worse not better. These old Dodgers as you call them have seen the UK's EU contribution fee skyrocket since the 1970's paying for something now which they simply don't feel is worth the money. These old Dodgers have seen the EU create it's own currency called the EURO and have since seen the Euro stumble from one crisis to the next, Portugal, Ireland and now Greece being perhaps the biggest and most recent one where Britain as a member of the EU has been on the hook to bail them out. These old dodgers have had their fill of the EU and are now sick to the back teeth of it, they think their kids and grandkids will be better off out of a declining EU (15% share of the world economy at present and set to fall to 12% of the world economy by the year 2030) so the UK can strike it's own trade deals with the high growth economies of the future. Speaking as someone relatively young (age 39) I personally am very greatful to my parents and the older generation for voting Leave in the EU referendum. The EU had a great opportunity to persuade the UK to stay during the renegotiation talks with David Cameron but basically told him (and the UK as Cameron was there to represent us) to fuck off, you'll take what's on offer and you'll like it. Only the British public have sent a clear message now that we won't take what's given by the EU and we certainly don't like it.

"Old Dodgers" may have been a typo. Lucky that you focused on that as the most important point being raised

You are right. They do not think like I do. Well observed.

Your premise is that the UK has benefited in no way from membership of the EU and that our public services and infrastructure would be in a better state of we weren't. Can you explain how or why?

Also, the entire point of of my response was to state, quite clearly, that the generation that voted to join the EU wanted something better than they had. The generation that voted to leave have benefited from that and a myriad other factors which they appear to believe is due to their singular brilliance rather than dumb luck and pine for a past which their parents did not want.

You have totally and utterly missed the point.

Splendid

Not missed the point at all, you just completely ignored all the points I raised. What was it you were saying about being in a cognitive cul-de-sac in a previous post

Our public services and infrastructure would have been in a better state if we had been free from EU free movement of people rules and better able to set our own immigration limits. Things were reasonably good up until 2004 when Tony Blair and Labour opened to floodgates to Eastern Europe and let in millions of people without putting any transitional controls in place. The influx of these millions of people has had a negative impact on public services and infrastructure buckling under the strain of weight of numbers. You can't keep letting in a population the size of Newcastle every year and not expect it to have some sort of impact. Those sort of immigration figures are unsustainable and need to be controlled. Thankfully since the Brexit vote immigration numbers have started to begin to fall. Official figures showed last week immigration numbers are down around 100,000 on last year which is good but more still needs to be done to bring those numbers down further. Unfortunately though the damage to our public services and infrastructure has already been done over the last 10 to 15 years since 2004.

Oh I am sorry old chap. I was under the impression that every single one of your points had been addressed by myself or somebody else line by line with evidence and explanations time after time in thread after thread. I had assumed, I now realise incorrectly, that you ignoring them meant that you weren't processing them

You must admit that it is quite amusing for you to be outraged at someone not directly responding to every element in one of your posts

When I have some time I am going to dedicate a thread to Brexit and cognitive bias. Do be sure to look in

In the meantime I will just reiterate a few things:

Most of what you are upset by has always been in the UK government's gift to control.

The British public sent a clear message that they don't like the way their country is. Need it provides no solution to this at all.

Cameron was slapped down because he tried to use the same bullying "negotiating" technique that is visibly failing now. We could have asked for additional funding to cover the marginal costs of concentrated immigration in certain areas instead of making shouty demands.

Is there corruption and waste in the EU. Yes. As in the UK. Fixing it will take forever. As in the UK.

On balance the UK benefits hugely in both industrial and financial terms through having an enormous and wealthy domestic market of 27 states with additional international trade deals leveraged on that basis.

Can I see any logic to getting better deals with more countries when we are a smaller market? No.

Do I think we have a strong negotiating position with Europe? No. The evidence appears to bear that out to date.

Do I think that access on China, the US or India's terms to their markets will benefit the UK? Only for a few individual companies. All in all we have nothing that they can't get anywhere else.

Did I think that Brexit would lead to instant economic Armageddon? No. A long, slow death of a thousand cuts as the UK only becomes attractive as a tax haven? Yes.

Am I poorer now than before the Brexit vote? Yes. I can buy less with every penny I earn.

Do I see Brexit generating any mass employment for the semi-skilled? No. Money will be spent on machinery rather than more expensive labour.

Do I see Parliament gaining any additional sovereignty? Not if the trend of the current government continues.

Can I see the rule of law remaining independent? Not the way I see the current government and press behaving.

Can I see a mechanism for raising money to pay for improved public services? No.

Have I heard a single coherent argument or concrete action to indicate that a single element of anyone's life will improve after Brexit? No.

Is the entire process infinitely more complicated than anyone was led to believe? Yes.

When you, inevitably, call me a remainder, please remember that the only advice that you will offer me in return is to "get on with 'it'", "be positive" and "get over 'it'. We will get a great trade deal from Trump who is well known to keep his promises and always work for mutual advantage. Other countries on the other side of the world like Australia and New Zealand would love to do a deal with us, after their EU deal and without objecting to our WTO status. Other wealthy ex Commonwealth countries would also love to buy all the stuff that we make with the small amount of money that they have. Also China would like to do an advantageous deal with us because they really want to buy things from us that they can't get anywhere else in the world.

Brexit is fairy dust and unicorn tears "

Firstly I'm not outraged by anything here, in fact I'm extremely happy. I've been happy and smiling ever since the UK voted to Leave the EU in June 2016.

I would have a look at your thread dedicated to Brexit and cognitive bias, but I've no doubt you'll be cognitively biased towards remain in it so it will hardly be worth the cyberspace that it occupies on here.

Immigration is not in control of member states of the EU as long as they are subject to EU free movement of people rules. This is just a statement of fact. Brexit provides a solution to this. Free movement of people from the EU was rejected by the people of the UK in the EU referendum. After Brexit free movement from the EU into the UK will stop, end, finish. This may annoy people like you but that's just the way it is.

You say the the EU is an enormous and wealthy domestic market. Surely you are joking? There are some very poor countries in the EU and having them in a monetary union like the EURO € with countries that are much richer is a recipe for disaster (as has been proved with the many bailouts we have already seen). Greece is now racked with debt, Italian banks were teetering on the brink this year, unemployment is incredibly high in many southern European countries like Spain. All is not well in the EU like you seem to think and there are deep seated flaws that are not going away.

You say the EU can get great trade deals. How long has the EU been going now? 40 odd years and it still doesn't have trade deals with major economies like USA and China. The EU's record on trade deals is a joke! It takes them forever and a day to decide the simplest of things because they have to get agreement between 27 member states who all have competing Interests and their own agendas. End result, nothing gets done. The UK on its own can be more flexible and able to adapt quickly to changing events and can make decisions on trade on its own much more quickly than the sloth like EU. We can get trade deals done much more quickly on our own. The EU took over 10 years to get a trade deal agreement with Canada, the UK could do a deal with Canada in less than half the time it took the EU.

As the UK is Currently the world's 6th largest economy by your own admission we will have advantage and more leverage on countries with smaller economies than ours.

The EU's inability to get things done was exposed for the world to see with the migration crisis. In the end individual member states had to take matters into their own hands and enforce their own borders. The Schengen zone on mainland Europe disintegrated like a wet shitty toilet roll when faced with its first real test.

The whole EU project is a joke that belongs in the dustbin of history.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"

Immigration is not in control of member states of the EU as long as they are subject to EU free movement of people rules. This is just a statement of fact. Brexit provides a solution to this. Free movement of people from the EU was rejected by the people of the UK in the EU referendum. After Brexit free movement from the EU into the UK will stop, end, finish. This may annoy people like you but that's just the way it is.

"

*BZZZZZT*

Wrong!

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

Or put another way.... Theresa May has been promising to bring immigration numbers down now for...er... seven years is it? Maybe you should have saved her the bother of thinking about it and just told her we don't have the ability to.

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Immigration is not in control of member states of the EU as long as they are subject to EU free movement of people rules. This is just a statement of fact. Brexit provides a solution to this. Free movement of people from the EU was rejected by the people of the UK in the EU referendum. After Brexit free movement from the EU into the UK will stop, end, finish. This may annoy people like you but that's just the way it is.

*BZZZZZT*

Wrong!

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

Or put another way.... Theresa May has been promising to bring immigration numbers down now for...er... seven years is it? Maybe you should have saved her the bother of thinking about it and just told her we don't have the ability to.

-Matt"

Matt...now be reasonable....you know its not in UKIPers remit to tell the truth about these things

There job and solely there job is to spread false information about everything. with the odd lie thrown in and hope no one spots it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"You say the EU can get great trade deals. How long has the EU been going now? 40 odd years and it still doesn't have trade deals with major economies like USA and China. The EU's record on trade deals is a joke!

"

A complaint that's built on the rather silly idea that an agreement between a large number of countries being a complex thing that takes time is a unique problem of the EU itself, and also the idea that the UK could achieve either better or equally good deals as they would by virtue of being in the EU.

And given the consistent capitulation of the UK during brexit negotiations I wouldn't hold my breath.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

-Matt"

So EU immigrants who do not have the ability to support themselves are a net economic positive to the country?

How?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

-Matt

So EU immigrants who do not have the ability to support themselves are a net economic positive to the country?

How?"

Should be returned to their country of origin if they don't meet the EU rules on freedom of movement :

1. Income/capital to support themselves

2. Comprehensive medical insurance

3. Threat to UK security

So the government should send them back - that's the rules - simply ask why they are not doing it?

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

-Matt

So EU immigrants who do not have the ability to support themselves are a net economic positive to the country?

How?

Should be returned to their country of origin if they don't meet the EU rules on freedom of movement :

1. Income/capital to support themselves

2. Comprehensive medical insurance

3. Threat to UK security

So the government should send them back - that's the rules - simply ask why they are not doing it?"

As I said, they are not doing it because the cost of trying to implement a system would outweigh the cost of letting them stay with the chance that a minority of them may be net negative financial impact.

-Matt

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

-Matt

So EU immigrants who do not have the ability to support themselves are a net economic positive to the country?

How?"

Because the reality is that the number of them in that position is less than the number of EU migrants that *are* a positive financial benefit to the country. The net result, as most of the studies have shown, is that EU migration is a net financial benefit to the country. Despite what the tabloids want you to believe.

-Matt

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

Even the The Sun has hardly any coverage of the whole UK / NI / EU debacle as even they can't work out a way to put a positive spin on the clusterfuck that it is, so have to just bury it under x-factor, strictly and someone who stole a £2.5K sex doll.

-Matt

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

-Matt

So EU immigrants who do not have the ability to support themselves are a net economic positive to the country?

How?

Because the reality is that the number of them in that position is less than the number of EU migrants that *are* a positive financial benefit to the country. The net result, as most of the studies have shown, is that EU migration is a net financial benefit to the country. Despite what the tabloids want you to believe.

-Matt"

How are EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves a NET benefit to the country?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

-Matt

So EU immigrants who do not have the ability to support themselves are a net economic positive to the country?

How?

Because the reality is that the number of them in that position is less than the number of EU migrants that *are* a positive financial benefit to the country. The net result, as most of the studies have shown, is that EU migration is a net financial benefit to the country. Despite what the tabloids want you to believe.

-Matt

How are EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves a NET benefit to the country?"

Maybe you should read what he says

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"

The UK has the ability (as does every other EU member) to expel EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves. The UK has *chosen* not to use those powers.

Why? Probably because pretty much every study says it would cost more to do than is worth, and economically those EU migrants actually are a net economic positive to the country.

-Matt

So EU immigrants who do not have the ability to support themselves are a net economic positive to the country?

How?

Because the reality is that the number of them in that position is less than the number of EU migrants that *are* a positive financial benefit to the country. The net result, as most of the studies have shown, is that EU migration is a net financial benefit to the country. Despite what the tabloids want you to believe.

-Matt

How are EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves a NET benefit to the country?

Maybe you should read what he says "

Maybe you should.

"EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves......are a net economic positive to the country."

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"

How are EU immigrants who do not have the means to support themselves a NET benefit to the country?"

Because they are still spending some money, and not receiving any as they have no recourse to public funds unless they have already paid into the system.

Also, don't forget that if they don't have a job, they are not exercising a treaty right, and they can be deported.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"I bet that Tory grandee will be dead in 40 yrs time.

Indeed, just like the majority of brexiteers. But it is every old codgers right to fuck up the future for their heirs and successors.

It was the bulk of those old codgers that voted in in the first place!

Actually it was not, in fact that would be a physical impossibility. 60% of those that voted in 1975 voted to join. To be old enough to vote in 75 you would be 60 or over today. The fact is the majority of those who voted to join are now dead.

And yet it was the "old codgers" whose votes fucked it up for their 'heirs and successors' ?

They're either dead or they voted, but they can't be both! "

Unless they lived in Northern Ireland where, apparently, it's not unusual for dead people to vote for up to 12 to 18 months after they have actually died.

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