FabSwingers.com forum: Bye bye Northern Ireland

By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

In the head first, head down charge for Brexit at any cost it would seem that the U.K. Team Brexit did not realise that the Irish problem could derail their ideological push.

The weakest link in this conundrum appears to be the DUP and their archaic concepts of division.

What price that the DUP gets sidelined by PM May and a referendum is held in NI about their continued membership of the SM and CU? This will of course be sore-curdour for the ultimate goal of Irish unification which demographically could occur as early as 2021.

Well done Brexiters. The destruction of the United Kingdom will be on your hands because surely Scotland will follow out the door.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

And England & Wales will be known as FUK. Former United Kingdom. On another note the Ireland might be offered the 6 counties back and go, 'Nah, we're good thanks'

The DUP are up against the wall, they have boundary changes that will affect them, changing demographics and worst of all, the prospect of Corbyn in No 10.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

". On another note the Ireland might be offered the 6 counties back and go, 'Nah, we're good thanks'"

Yeah Id be in that boat at the moment. If its not guaranteed to be a peaceful transition (or as close to a guarantee as these things get) then Id rather the status quo. The demographics might shift in the next 5 years but unless theres widespread acceptance in the unionist community then things are fine as they are.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the head first, head down charge for Brexit at any cost it would seem that the U.K. Team Brexit did not realise that the Irish problem could derail their ideological push.

The weakest link in this conundrum appears to be the DUP and their archaic concepts of division.

Well done Brexiters. The destruction of the United Kingdom will be on your hands because surely Scotland will follow out the door."

Wake up, Us Scots were "Never In the Door", don't expect us to stand side by side with you, it never happened in the past and wont happen now

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's wrong with a nation democratically voting for reunification or independence?.

I would be more than happy to see the UK brake apart through democracy!....I would be more than happy to see the UK vote to stay in the EU or leave the EU or vote green vote labour vote tor... No I wouldn't go that far

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

Much hyperbole I think. It looks to me that Ireland is being used like a glove puppet by the EU negotiators to create an additional pressure point.

What would be the advantage to anyone, including Ireland, if there is no deal? I’m not sure people are thinking through the likely sequence here.

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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Much hyperbole I think. It looks to me that Ireland is being used like a glove puppet by the EU negotiators to create an additional pressure point.

What would be the advantage to anyone, including Ireland, if there is no deal? I’m not sure people are thinking through the likely sequence here."

Actually, I think that everyone but the UK Brexit negotiating team has thought it through very well indeed.

The GFA is an international treaty recognised under international law.

The World Trade Organisation has rules that are recognised under international law.

WTO rules require that a physical border be in place unless a customs union is in place. The UK has elected to remove itself from the Customs Union and as long asNorthern Ireland is on side, the UK will either be in breech of WTO rules or in breech of the GFA.

The EU and Eire simply want to understand how the UK is going to square the circle in order maintain in adherence of international law.

The simple reality is that the UK cannot square the circle and everyone knows that. It is actually criminally incompetent the way the the UK Brexit team is trying to push this forward and it only illustrates just how woefully unprepared they were/are.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Much hyperbole I think. It looks to me that Ireland is being used like a glove puppet by the EU negotiators to create an additional pressure point.

What would be the advantage to anyone, including Ireland, if there is no deal? I’m not sure people are thinking through the likely sequence here."

If there is no deal it will not be the fault of the Good Friday agreement nor the people of Eire/Northern Ireland who are pretty much united on there being no hard border for obvious reasons..

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

Yes but the definition of a “physical” border offers room for compromise, as Ahearne was suggesting today. My point was really that this issue is very unlikely to be the deal breaker, and if it were, what is the consequence? If serious trade talks are not commenced soon then there becomes the real possibility of our accepting that there will be no comprehensive deal, and in effect walking away. It won’t be quite like that as there are areas of critical mutual self interest which will get addressed individually.

I don’t see what Ireland gains from there being no compromise. We will see.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

No one gains from a hard brexit, a small minority will flagellate themselves into a frenzy as they will love the chaos it will cause regardless of the cost to people's lives and future prospects and will use that to further their little England 'its all their fault' xenophobia..

If someone has been telling you something since April consistently is it not either arrogance or incompetence if you have failed to address it and instead keep fobbing it off with a we will discuss this later..

shambolic..

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It's evident that the UK brexit dumbass team were and remain somewhat clueless about an intelligent strategy to preserve not just its own prosperity but in particular that of its population. All because the government puts the maintenance of itself and a tiny minority as of increased importance. It has attempted to persist with trying to keep some sort of order of its more lunatic swivel eyed anti-European brigade at any cost, as well as secure conservative preservation. A no-deal exit matters little to the party and its paymasters, who can still secure huge wealth gains.

The wellbeing of the voting public matters little.

The friction between Ireland and the UK/NI is just a little collateral damage along the way for these gluttonous pigs, a sideshow that matters little, if no deal or an alternative awful deal transpires. They'd done some amount of analysis and planning but their covert outcomes were always acceptable to them.

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

That isn’t how it looks to me. We put forward some proposals on how the trade in goods might be managed without fixed customs posts at the border. At first there appeared to be a positive response, but then a change of direction and tone from Varadkar.

While I can see many good reasons for staying in the EU, I can see none for leaving it and losing all influence on its decisions but choosing to be bound in pretty much all essential economic affairs by remaining in the customs union and the single market.

And while no one wants a hard border with the Irish Republic, if that is the only alternative then so be it. I can’t see that we will be erecting watchtowers etc.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"That isn’t how it looks to me. We put forward some proposals on how the trade in goods might be managed without fixed customs posts at the border. At first there appeared to be a positive response, but then a change of direction and tone from Varadkar.

And while no one wants a hard border with the Irish Republic, if that is the only alternative then so be it. I can’t see that we will be erecting watchtowers etc. "

nothing is worth the possibility of a return to a pre Good Friday agreement Northern Ireland and the 'troubles'..

if even on a small scale..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And while no one wants a hard border with the Irish Republic, if that is the only alternative then so be it. I can’t see that we will be erecting watchtowers etc. "

What about the good Friday agreement ?

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

Why would this mean a return to the troubles? I don’t see the connection. Ireland joined the EU, following our decision to do so, during them and they continued for years afterwards, and where in the Good Friday agreement does it require the UK, or Morthern Ireland to remain in the EU? ( I know the Irish case is for us to remain in the single market, but as I’ve said before I would consider that an absurdity).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why would this mean a return to the troubles? I don’t see the connection. Ireland joined the EU, following our decision to do so, during them and they continued for years afterwards, and where in the Good Friday agreement does it require the UK, or Morthern Ireland to remain in the EU? ( I know the Irish case is for us to remain in the single market, but as I’ve said before I would consider that an absurdity)."

Have you ever been or lived in Nth Ireland...if you had you wouldnt be asking these questions

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

you can not have a hard border without it being staffed by UK border force personnel, apart from that breaking the Good Friday agreement for some again albeit a minority it would be the same as having British forces manning checkpoints..

the using technology argument may work for some sectors who use the main roads crossing but there are other sectors and scores upon scores of other roads that will need a physical presence and that again will not be accepted..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Approx 220 roads cross the border

Would take thousands to man that number of crossing points

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

And they never were and never will be. When we were one country, when we were two sovereign countries, and when we were two countries inside the EU. It’s a stretch to claim that any kind of border checks, however visible, are a breach of the Good Friday agreement or in any way would justify some return to terrrorism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

this isn't about a return to terrorism ... this is the tories managing to bring about the reunification of ireland ... which for a party that exists solely to underpin unionism, it would be farcical for them to bring about the demise of the union ... as a result they would be pointless as a political party and would hopefully disappear up their own arse in puff of smoke

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm still not sure what's "bad" about the reunification of Ireland?...

If it's what people in Ireland want, what's bad about it

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"And they never were and never will be. When we were one country, when we were two sovereign countries, and when we were two countries inside the EU. It’s a stretch to claim that any kind of border checks, however visible, are a breach of the Good Friday agreement or in any way would justify some return to terrrorism. "

You dont know what youre talking about, its a key issue and a matter of international law that there will not be checkpoints at that border. Its not a stretch to say it, its written in black and white and was negotiated and agreed on and passed by the Republic,Northern Ireland and the UK.

And considering that this week Unionists put in a formal complaint against a christmad tree lighting ceremony on the basis that if they couldnt fly the Union Jack over government buildings every day then children shouldnt get to enjoy a christmas celebration. Thats the petty small minded nonsense that still goes on. If you think there arent people on both sides who arent itching for a reason to go back to the old days then youre incredibly naive.

Theres not gonna be a border if theres a deal and theres not gonna be a border if theres no deal unless the UK is going to unilaterally ignore international law,the will of the Northern Irish people and illegally send the their army in to erect and man borders...and isnt it exactly that type of shit that gave us the Troubles in the first place?

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"I'm still not sure what's "bad" about the reunification of Ireland?...

If it's what people in Ireland want, what's bad about it

A majority of the North dont want it and while a majority of the Republic like it in theory some day, in the current circumstances a majority dont want it to happen now.

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

"this isn't about a return to terrorism ... this is the tories managing to bring about the reunification of ireland ... which for a party that exists solely to underpin unionism, it would be farcical for them to bring about the demise of the union ... as a result they would be pointless as a political party and would hopefully disappear up their own arse in puff of smoke "

Well it can hardly be both I agree. We won’t have both a return of the troubles AND Irish unification, or if we did they would be for the Irish government to manage.

But how is this reunification to come about? I don’t share your certainty. I can imagine scenarios where it might, but these could happen anyway.

Despite the recent pragmatic agreement with the DUP there is little connection or indeed warmth between the Conservative Party and them. There was once with the UlsterUnionists. The historic commitment of the Conservative Party to Union with Ireland ( and subsequently with part of it) is hardly more central to its existence than the maintenance of the Corn Laws.

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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

You clearly have no idea about the history of Ireland and the significance of the Good Friday Agreement,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's border checks between the UK and France and has been for decades, if your going through with a boot full of beer and fags you get stopped and questioned, if you can't answer the questions reasonably you get them confiscated, all the trucks and main trade come through via online registration and agreements.

I really don't see what the problem is?.

I really don't see what the problem of a reunification of Ireland is if that's what the people of Ireland vote for.

Whys everybody so afraid of democracy all of a sudden? What's wrong with citizens voting for septation like in Catalonia or Scotland?.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm still not sure what's "bad" about the reunification of Ireland?...

If it's what people in Ireland want, what's bad about it

A majority of the North dont want it and while a majority of the Republic like it in theory some day, in the current circumstances a majority dont want it to happen now."
.

So the majority of the people in northern Ireland don't want unification but they don't want a border either?.

Seems like there pretty mixed up to be honest

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

Does Bertie Ahearne not know what he’s talking about either? Or anyone who doesn’t share your opinion? And believe me, I need no reminding of the ability of the parties in Ireland to find excuses to resort to conflict. Or indeed to dismiss with contempt anyone from outside having the temerity to have a view on any Irish affairs without a detailed understanding of the causes and issues involved in the struggle for Mother Twanky’s cabbage patch in 1798. Or wherever- I have an Irish brother in law who regularly informs me

Let’s see: I think there will be a compromise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If your part of the UK you've gotta have a border with the county that ain't.... If you don't like that, leave and join the country you don't want a border with and therefore you won't.... It's not rocket science, it's not even brain surgery

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"I'm still not sure what's "bad" about the reunification of Ireland?...

If it's what people in Ireland want, what's bad about it

A majority of the North dont want it and while a majority of the Republic like it in theory some day, in the current circumstances a majority dont want it to happen now..

So the majority of the people in northern Ireland don't want unification but they don't want a border either?.

Seems like there pretty mixed up to be honest

Not really, they voted for the current borderless arrangement and to stay in the EU. They know exactly what they want.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm still not sure what's "bad" about the reunification of Ireland?...

If it's what people in Ireland want, what's bad about it

A majority of the North dont want it and while a majority of the Republic like it in theory some day, in the current circumstances a majority dont want it to happen now..

So the majority of the people in northern Ireland don't want unification but they don't want a border either?.

Seems like there pretty mixed up to be honest

Not really, they voted for the current borderless arrangement and to stay in the EU. They know exactly what they want."
.

But we've been through this, that's not how a UK wide vote works, we knew it before the vote, during the vote and after the vote!.

Now I'm all for offering northern Ireland a referendum on leaving the UK, if they choose to leave I'm very happy for them and they may or may not get reunification or a border with the republic, if they don't however they don't get to choose whether or not they have a border because there part of the UK and the UK ain't the republic just like it ain't France so we have check points.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

And then let's stop pussying around with Ireland and have a fucking trade war until they agree to our demands!... (Apparently that's just how trade works when your the biggest partner) (it's not even being horrible).

It's just the way of the world

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well it can hardly be both I agree. We won’t have both a return of the troubles AND Irish unification, or if we did they would be for the Irish government to manage.

But how is this reunification to come about? I don’t share your certainty. I can imagine scenarios where it might, but these could happen anyway.

you might want to check what the full name of the tory party actually is then chap

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Oh. We're onto talk of trade wars now?

Marvelous, I do enjoy a bit of absurdism every now and then.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Oh. We're onto talk of trade wars now?

Marvelous, I do enjoy a bit of absurdism every now and then."
.

Well I've toned down from carpet bombing cork if nothing else

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a two pronged attack.

Firstly Ireland will agree to everything we say once we level cork.

Secondly Apple will pay their taxs in full.

And best still the EU doesn't even have an army, so let's get cracking

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Couldn't agree more

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

This is the one issue that really could do for Brexit, as there is no solution.

The Irish Goverment see a "technological" border (as exists between Norway and Sweden) still as a "hard" border and would probably use their veto if it went that way.

Having the border in the Irish Sea would be opposed by the Unionists, and their votes are needed by the present UK Government.

I'm not sure how the present political troubles in the Republic

would possibly change things. I'm seeing the possibility of a snap GE there, as coalitions founder.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Couldn't agree more

A trade war with who

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Couldn't agree more

A trade war with who "
.

Eire

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

"This is the one issue that really could do for Brexit, as there is no solution.

The Irish Goverment see a "technological" border (as exists between Norway and Sweden) still as a "hard" border and would probably use their veto if it went that way.

Having the border in the Irish Sea would be opposed by the Unionists, and their votes are needed by the present UK Government.

I'm not sure how the present political troubles in the Republic

would possibly change things. I'm seeing the possibility of a snap GE there, as coalitions founder."

Of course in theory the Irish Government, like Germany or Luxembourg, could veto any deal. But that doesn’t and can’t veto Brexit itself. At present, all that is being threatened is that the EU may refuse to proceed to the trade talks we want until a solution to the border issue satisfactory to them is agreed. Since our position is that a border solution acceptable to us is indivisibly tied to trade arrangements there is an impasse.

My guess, though I wouldn’t put my house on it, is that the issue will be finessed at this stage, and the EU negotiators are using it as a pressure point: I would in their place. Pretty much our only bargaining chip is money, and the main objective of the EU is to squeeze as much out of us as they can. The more pressure on us in other areas the more willing we might be to keep pushing up the cash offer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Couldn't agree more

A trade war with who .

Eire"
very forgetful that's the eu

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Couldn't agree more

A trade war with who .

Eire very forgetful that's the eu "
.

We don't need to close the border between n/Ireland and Ireland.

We just close it at the mainland to all Irish imports, that's 50% of Irish exports...

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Couldn't agree more

A trade war with who .

Eire very forgetful that's the eu .

We don't need to close the border between n/Ireland and Ireland.

We just close it at the mainland to all Irish imports, that's 50% of Irish exports...

Ah but the issue there is that you cant right now because youre still in the EU, and after you leave you wont be able to either because of an EU/UK trade deal or because of WTO rules.

The Tories have days to resolves the impasse on citizens, border and settling their debts, if they dont then trade talks cant start till March giving them just 7 months to negotiate a massive trade deal that could normally take 7 years.

Excellent work.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why the fuck are we paying the dup billions in bribes just give northern Ireland a referendum on leaving.

You stay you get a border, you leave you might not!.

It's just the way of the world

Couldn't agree more

A trade war with who .

Eire very forgetful that's the eu .

We don't need to close the border between n/Ireland and Ireland.

We just close it at the mainland to all Irish imports, that's 50% of Irish exports...

Ah but the issue there is that you cant right now because youre still in the EU, and after you leave you wont be able to either because of an EU/UK trade deal or because of WTO rules.

Excellent work."
.

Fuck em.. just do it next week, what they gonna do, punish us by making us leave

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is where the UK has lost it, they've turned into a nation of pussies

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If I were Theresa may I'd be flying test missiles over Dublin by Friday, we'll see who blinks first

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the head first, head down charge for Brexit at any cost it would seem that the U.K. Team Brexit did not realise that the Irish problem could derail their ideological push.

The weakest link in this conundrum appears to be the DUP and their archaic concepts of division.

Well done Brexiters. The destruction of the United Kingdom will be on your hands because surely Scotland will follow out the door."

Well it's perfectly just that Ireland would be United again, - there's no point in complaining on just about the only positive to come from Brexit, is there.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the head first, head down charge for Brexit at any cost it would seem that the U.K. Team Brexit did not realise that the Irish problem could derail their ideological push.

The weakest link in this conundrum appears to be the DUP and their archaic concepts of division.

Well done Brexiters. The destruction of the United Kingdom will be on your hands because surely Scotland will follow out the door."
Good

Job done

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the head first, head down charge for Brexit at any cost it would seem that the U.K. Team Brexit did not realise that the Irish problem could derail their ideological push.

The weakest link in this conundrum appears to be the DUP and their archaic concepts of division.

Well done Brexiters. The destruction of the United Kingdom will be on your hands because surely Scotland will follow out the door. Good

Job done

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By *eedsandyMan
over a year ago

Leeds

Except that no one is out of the door. That's the point.

Monday's agreement would have meant Northern Ireland being treated differently from England, Wales and Scotland.

The DUP rightly objected and that mistake has been corrected to the satisfaction of the DUP.

The DUP are pretty hard-line, so if they are now happy, then the deal must be a good one for Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK.

The U in DUP stands for Unionist i.e. with the UK, not Eire!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Except that no one is out of the door. That's the point.

Monday's agreement would have meant Northern Ireland being treated differently from England, Wales and Scotland.

The DUP rightly objected and that mistake has been corrected to the satisfaction of the DUP.

The DUP are pretty hard-line, so if they are now happy, then the deal must be a good one for Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK.

The U in DUP stands for Unionist i.e. with the UK, not Eire!"

and what a united kingdom it is, I mean, you only have to look at how united the cities are!

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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Except that no one is out of the door. That's the point.

Monday's agreement would have meant Northern Ireland being treated differently from England, Wales and Scotland.

The DUP rightly objected and that mistake has been corrected to the satisfaction of the DUP.

The DUP are pretty hard-line, so if they are now happy, then the deal must be a good one for Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK.

The U in DUP stands for Unionist i.e. with the UK, not Eire!"

You are demonstrating the uniquely UKIP limitation of articulating one dimensional thought processes.

Just think this through, step by step.

In the EU referendum, Northern Ireland voted to Remain in the EU.

The Conservative Govt were seemingly prepared (if we are to be believed) that N Ireland could stay aligned to EU regulations in order to maintain the GFA.

The DUP objected to this and demanded that N Ireland leaves the EU (against the wishes of the majority) together with the U.K.

A fudge Agreement was made that has kicked the problem into the long grass for now but which the DUP has allied itself to a form of rhetoric that goes against what the majority in N Ireland voted for.

Meaning that the DUP and Conservatives who by the very definition of what they are (Unionists) have pushed the cause of Irish Nationalism to the fore and made a united Ireland much more of a possibility than at any time since the island was first divided. Nice work ??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This whole episode have been stage managed from monday the dup has got nothing more than what they where ever going to get this is all to bluff there supporters .they have a siege mentality an constantly tell the unionist population that they are being short changed they are project fear an full off self importance an represent about 30% off the population off ni which is maybe 500,000 . So now the can tell their people we saved the union three cheers for Arlene .i call bullshit

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