FabSwingers.com forum: Is the Irish border REALLY a problem?

By *tjohnspair OP Couple
over a year ago

Worcester

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1120/921449-eu-readying-ambitious-trade-pact-if-uk-meets-ter/

Barnier has (this week) stated that a “comprehensive free-trade agreement” is the EUs aim ...IF we sort out the finances (we know we will at some point) AND sort out NI/Eire border issues.

If there is a “comprehensive free-trade” arrangement.....then the border issue doesn’t exist?

All it is at the moment is the Sihn Fein influenced Irish government and the DUP lead NI (not actually assembly at the moment) trying to use the issue of Brexit for political means!

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1120/921449-eu-readying-ambitious-trade-pact-if-uk-meets-ter/

Barnier has (this week) stated that a “comprehensive free-trade agreement” is the EUs aim ...IF we sort out the finances (we know we will at some point) AND sort out NI/Eire border issues.

If there is a “comprehensive free-trade” arrangement.....then the border issue doesn’t exist?

All it is at the moment is the Sihn Fein influenced Irish government and the DUP lead NI (not actually assembly at the moment) trying to use the issue of Brexit for political means!"

I guess you realise the complexity of having a free trade deal with two trading blocks who don't have a free trade deal between themselves ?

No no no of course good old law abiding UK exporters would never buy certain goods at free trade prices from one block and sell them on to the other tariff free .

Free trade deal or not you have to have a customs border if you don't agree to the Eus trade deals with other trading blocks

Gosh it's not difficult

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There clearly IS a problem with the border.

But surely the biggest problem is that we don’t know WHAT the problem is until we know what trade arrangements there will/won’t be between the U.K. and EU.

Only AFTER we know these arrangements can we look at a border solution for them?

Are we/EU trying to put the cart before the horse?

And yes...the OP has a point in much of it is political posturing both sides of the border.

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"There clearly IS a problem with the border.

But surely the biggest problem is that we don’t know WHAT the problem is until we know what trade arrangements there will/won’t be between the U.K. and EU.

Only AFTER we know these arrangements can we look at a border solution for them?

Are we/EU trying to put the cart before the horse?

And yes...the OP has a point in much of it is political posturing both sides of the border."

That is incorrect

There is only one border solution for them

That's the simple point

No border

That's it

No more to it

The trade solution may have infinite permutations but every single one of them will have

Zero border between n and southern Ireland

It's so simple even an Irish pm can work it out

I have zero idea why so many feel the need to conclude trade discussions to have this simple point made clear ?

There is no need for trade talks to clarify

Every single option will facilitate no border

Constant force and Reducing mass equals exponential acceleration

That's rocket science

Clarifying no Irish border at any time is not

But a problem does arise as the UK leaves Europe as unless the UK maintains all the current trade rules with the eu the need for a prosper customs border with the Eu is very very likely and whatever countless permutations there may be

A border within Ireland is NOT one of them

Golly gosh why trade talks are required to understand this simple fact are beyond me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the only thing foster's posturing in a desperate attempt to hijack the talks will achieve, is a re-unified ireland comming about far sooner than it already is.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"There clearly IS a problem with the border.

But surely the biggest problem is that we don’t know WHAT the problem is until we know what trade arrangements there will/won’t be between the U.K. and EU.

Only AFTER we know these arrangements can we look at a border solution for them?

Are we/EU trying to put the cart before the horse?

And yes...the OP has a point in much of it is political posturing both sides of the border."

Really?

We don't know what the NI border problem is? You may not, but I do. It really is quite simple. On the 29/3/2019 the UK leaves the EU, single market and customs union, at that moment a hard border has to be placed between the UK and EU. That is in direct conflict with the Good Friday Agreement, that is a major problem and if the hard border is enforced at the NI/RoI border thus breaking the GF agreement will in all probability act as a catalyst and result in a return to the violent NI nationalist insurgency. Of course there was a simple (and cheaper) solution to a RoI/NI hard border and that is placing the hard border between NI and the mainland, but the Maybot and Tories have categorically ruled that solution out as part of their deal with the DUP.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

When people, and in particular British political leaders, understand that there is a difference between having a free trade agreement and being in a customs union then the real problem faced by the UK and the NI border might finally come into focus.

The UK have created this seemingly insurmountable problem by stating that the UK is going to come out of the Single Market and the Customs Union and have also indicated that the future direction will be a divergence from EU standards and not a convergence. Therefore by definition there has to be a dividing line between the EU Customs Union and the external country that is not part of it otherwise the border will be a rat run for the smuggling of goods that are not part of the FTA and/or which have significantly different tax/duty rates. The EU referendum was an advisory referendum and the Good Friday Agreement is a treaty recognised under international law. The Good Friday Agreement specifically prevents the imposition of any kind of border on the island of Ireland and that means a solid border, a manned border, a virtual border, or even one that is under surveillance only by CCTV.

The reason by the way that the UK wants no part of the Single Market and Customs Union - in other words being part of the EEA for example is that whilst it will provide about 50-60% of the benefits of being a full member of the EU, the UK would still pay around the same that we did as full members and have no say at all in the formulation of future EU policy. Even our dense Brexit leaders know that this would be an almost impossible sell to the British public who would quite rightly then ask ... Why? (That said, let’s not even mention the true cost of Brexit which the Government is doing its best to keep under wraps).

The UK cannot simply drop the Northern Ireland problem, much as it cannot just drop the Gibraltar problem. Both places are propping up the Conservative Government and so tying the hands of Theresa May and limiting any really imaginative solutions. This is a BIG problem and the only solutions are going to be unpalatable to someone.

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"There clearly IS a problem with the border.

But surely the biggest problem is that we don’t know WHAT the problem is until we know what trade arrangements there will/won’t be between the U.K. and EU.

Only AFTER we know these arrangements can we look at a border solution for them?

Are we/EU trying to put the cart before the horse?

And yes...the OP has a point in much of it is political posturing both sides of the border.

Really?

May will have to 're think that one,

There is no way anything constructive other than perhaps a vague extension of deadline will be agreed by the alleged exit date not one single chance

There is a slight chance that the hard liners will succeed and we all fall off the cliff in , pauses for thought ?

In only about a fucking years time

The UK will either have to agree to maintaining total customs and trade arrangements or a border at all mainland airports and sea ports to check all goods and people from the whole of Ireland

Again the simplicity is astounding

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sensual touch..... clearly NO border is ideal. But if one side is IN a customs union/free trade area and the other is out then it can’t happen. That is the SIMPLE fact.

If both sides are IN a free trade area/deal then there is no need for it.

That’s why the trade arrangement is needed first!

Having said that I agree in one respect.....There already IS a border.... VAT rates are different, tax rates are different, currency is different.... but we manage. I’m sure we can after Brexit. Let’s hope so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

let's contextualise it ... isle of man, sark, alderney, etc etc etc

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"Sensual touch..... clearly NO border is ideal. But if one side is IN a customs union/free trade area and the other is out then it can’t happen. That is the SIMPLE fact.

If both sides are IN a free trade area/deal then there is no need for it.

That’s why the trade arrangement is needed first!

You are right exactly right so very right

IF one is out and another is in A Border is required

and one between n and s is not an option

So glad we got that sorted

Although above I almost thought you were hinting that if left until trade talks conclude it could be a slight possibility

Maybe that's the impression the Irish pm has from the UK negotiating skills so far and thus he is clarifying

It's NOT an option

Thus no need to wait for trade talks

This does seem circular ?

See I'd suggest

If there is no possibility zero possibility then it matters not one jot it is established now

However if the exit team want a border as an option the decision cannot be made until after trade talks

Thus it can quite clearly be established now

As a border cannot be an option

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"let's contextualise it ... isle of man, sark, alderney, etc etc etc"

Let’s accurately contextualise it. 27 EU countries solidly behind the Eire position. The U.K. claiming a yet to be broadcast alternative position that it claims will be better for everyone. The U.K. started this shambles and like it or not, the U.K. is not really in a particularly strong position.

For the first time in history the Irish can say no to the UK because they and not the U.K. have the upper hand.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the government have caved in on absolutely eveything so far ... this will be no different. they are weak, divided and have no clue whatsoever on how to implement their little brexit experiment.

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

Liam fox

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

The highlight of the border debate this week was a British journalist in the Spectator complaining about the Irish position. He said a sea border between NI and the rest of the UK would be a terrible position for the Irish to take. Why? Because what country would ever divide its neighbour in two like that.......

Yes...who would do that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The highlight of the border debate this week was a British journalist in the Spectator complaining about the Irish position. He said a sea border between NI and the rest of the UK would be a terrible position for the Irish to take. Why? Because what country would ever divide its neighbour in two like that.......

Yes...who would do that

lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"let's contextualise it ... isle of man, sark, alderney, etc etc etc"

All islands with no land borders with another EU member...what context?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There will be a final deal on trade or there won’t! Fact....(as this is mutually exclusive)

This will involve tariffs or it won’t! Fact....(again mutually exclusive)

If no tariffs are involved then no need for a customs border.

If tariffs are involved then some kind of customs border is required by the EU.

Hence the border issue depends on the type of deal (or no deal) arrived at.

The deal is the horse. The border issue is the cart.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"There will be a final deal on trade or there won’t! Fact....(as this is mutually exclusive)

This will involve tariffs or it won’t! Fact....(again mutually exclusive)

If no tariffs are involved then no need for a customs border.

If tariffs are involved then some kind of customs border is required by the EU.

Hence the border issue depends on the type of deal (or no deal) arrived at.

The deal is the horse. The border issue is the cart."

Right, you are 100% correct.

No border requires no tariffs.

Which means that the UK needs to negotiate some deal with the EU which then results in no tariffs between the UK and the EU. Why would the EU want to do that? What would their members gain from it? At the very least it creates a loophole where the UK could (for example) set zero tariffs on good from China, that then arrive in the UK and then go into the EU with zero tariffs. No way to then stop that.

-Matt

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"There will be a final deal on trade or there won’t! Fact....(as this is mutually exclusive)

This will involve tariffs or it won’t! Fact....(again mutually exclusive)

If no tariffs are involved then no need for a customs border.

If tariffs are involved then some kind of customs border is required by the EU.

Hence the border issue depends on the type of deal (or no deal) arrived at.

The deal is the horse. The border issue is the cart."

Youre missing the EU position. The EU isnt that concerned with the trade deal. Its concerned with the border because that could have a big effect on the integrity of the EU project. There wont be a border so the trade deal has no bearing on the border issue. If the UK stays in the customs union or not will not change the status of the border.

And youre not seeing the strategic value for the EU in deciding the border issue first. If its accepted no border is palatable then the North will have to stay in the customs union. If thats the case then May has the choice of putting a border between the UK and NI or keeping the UK as a whole in the customs union. It puts her in an impossible situation (entirely of her own making). If she puts a border between the UK and NI then her government could collapse without the DUP support. Accepting the customs union is waving the white flag on Brexit. You'll be paying a divorce bill, accepting free movement, losing influence in the EU and still beholden to EU directives and laws.

The Tories have been completely outmanouvered in these negotiations, its partly their fault for being incompetent but its also the reality that the UK needs the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If the UK stays in the customs union , and dose a free trade agreement with the eu ,

Is the uk any better off than been in the eu ??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"let's contextualise it ... isle of man, sark, alderney, etc etc etc

All islands with no land borders with another EU member...what context?"

outside vat area ... not members of eu but still treated as .... i needent go on as any intelligent person knows the rest ... what was your question?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Solution !

Independent England !

Indepenpdant Northern Ireland !

Independent Wales !

Independent Scotland !

Independent Cornwall for Bob

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"If the UK stays in the customs union , and dose a free trade agreement with the eu ,

Is the uk any better off than been in the eu ?? "

Its a matter of opinion and depends how exactly its structured. If its a Swiss style deal (which is rumoured to now be Mays aim) then the UK will still have to accept freedom of movement, they wont have as good as access to the single market tas they did. The UK will also have to maintain a lot of the regulations and directives of the EU without having a say in shaping them. Every law that goes to the Swiss parliament has to be examined to ensure its compatible with the relevant EU laws.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Solution !

Independent England !

Indepenpdant Northern Ireland !

Independent Wales !

Independent Scotland !

Independent Cornwall for Bob

"
It's not impossible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If the UK stays in the customs union , and dose a free trade agreement with the eu ,

Is the uk any better off than been in the eu ??

So in reality it's worse ?

How about there ability to do a trade deal with third country like US ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Solution !

Independent England !

Indepenpdant Northern Ireland !

Independent Wales !

Independent Scotland !

Independent Cornwall for Bob

It's not impossible.

I really don't see a problem

We can all be friends

The Scots can stay in the E U , we can rebuild Hadrian Wall

Ireland can sort iself

The Welsh ? Don't mind

Cornwall ? Actually don't see why not ? I've always seen it as a country not a county as historically it was

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"If the UK stays in the customs union , and dose a free trade agreement with the eu ,

Is the uk any better off than been in the eu ??

So in reality it's worse ?

How about there ability to do a trade deal with third country like US ?

They would be free to do other trade deals but the US has said that its a requirement that the UK drop their food standards to the US level if they want a trade deal so its up in the air as to whether the people will accept that so any potential trade deal could already be scuppered.

The UK would also lose out on over 120 trade deals that they are currently party to through the EU and most impartial people would say it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for the UK to improve on those deals since they are a much smaller market than the combined EU/UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So basically then may's options are limited to keep the uup happy can't split northern Ireland from UK , so then she has to either crumble on customs union which she can't back down on and expect to be taken seriously after or call a hard border between north and south of Ireland and hope the south don't Vito trade deal , which leads to hard brexit,

If they do she has to manage to put 120 plus trade deals together in 120 days ,

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"If the UK stays in the customs union , and dose a free trade agreement with the eu ,

Is the uk any better off than been in the eu ?? "

Shhhhh

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"So basically then may's options are limited to keep the uup happy can't split northern Ireland from UK , so then she has to either crumble on customs union which she can't back down on and expect to be taken seriously after or call a hard border between north and south of Ireland and hope the south don't Vito trade deal , which leads to hard brexit,

If they do she has to manage to put 120 plus trade deals together in 120 days ,"

Basically yeah, she's absolutely screwed. Part of the reason that Cameron hightailed it out of there straight away.

The Irish will veto moving on to trade talks if they arent happy and the Torys have no ideas on what to do.

This week unionists put an objection into the christmas tree lighting ceremony because if they cant have their Union Jacks then the kids cant have their christmas tree either. The peace is still incredibly fragile and only survives because Northern Ireland has enough ambiguity to keep everyone happy. If you want to consider yourself British you have British citizenship, British passport and trade and travel with Britain. If you consider yourself Irish you can have Irish citizenship and passport and travel and trade with Ireland.

Brexit could eliminate that and upset a lot of the wrong people in the process. And the Irish are NOT going to invite that shitstorm to their doorstep again, its just not going to happen. So if the UK want any deal (and despite the rhetoric no deal isnt an option) there cant be a border. So how they square that in the next 2 weeks is going to be...interesting to say the least.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"There will be a final deal on trade or there won’t! Fact....(as this is mutually exclusive)

This will involve tariffs or it won’t! Fact....(again mutually exclusive)

If no tariffs are involved then no need for a customs border.

If tariffs are involved then some kind of customs border is required by the EU.

Hence the border issue depends on the type of deal (or no deal) arrived at.

The deal is the horse. The border issue is the cart."

no... i think you'll find the Good Friday Agreement which is the international binding agreement at the moment, would be the thing that any trade deal has to work in the auspice of ...

so there for the GFA says no borders, then that is an automatic parameter the trade agreement has to maintain... no if's, no buts.....

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

Yes it is a big problem but it is for us and the republic to sort out and if we are happy the EU should exept it,the problem has little to do with them but I doubt if they can keep there meddling noses out sadly

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

i basically still think that in the end the hard border will be between the mainland and northern ireland... and way will basically dare the DUP to both vote against it, and vote against her in a no confidence motion.... both which i think the DUP won't do because the thought of a corbyn government to them is the worst of two evils....

may has basically let the tail wag the dog.......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yes it is a big problem but it is for us and the republic to sort out and if we are happy the EU should exept it,the problem has little to do with them but I doubt if they can keep there meddling noses out sadly"

As Ireland is part of the EU, asking them to "keep their meddling noses out" betrays a profound lack of understanding.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

it's nothing to do with the uk really ... it's for the irish to sort out ... the "concept" of 'northern ireland' isn't even 100 years old ... just get on with what's inevitable and reunify now

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"We" being "who" out of interest.... the Uk?

The republic are part of the 27! so if its the republics issue, it the EU's issue.....

and the truely ironic thing is that because of the Irish constitution, they will get a say on the final deal, and the people in the UK won't........

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They were talking about a low friction border earlier , I got so excited , I have a van and small truck got , I'm currently working on putting the number plates on that will electronically rotate at flick of a switch when I crossing the check points .

Unmanned customs border it will be like Christmas every day

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

you need to keep up with what is going on and review what it was you voted for..

that you think its so simplistic seems to suggest you've not kept up with what's been happening in NI this last 50 years..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

you need to keep up with what is going on and review what it was you voted for..

that you think its so simplistic seems to suggest you've not kept up with what's been happening in NI this last 50 years..

He lives in a bubble..i do hope Jacob Rees Mogg never gets any power

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

As Ireland is part of the EU, asking them to "keep their meddling noses out" betrays a profound lack of understanding."
I do understand that is why I said it,you do not understand what I am saying sadly your not looking at the geography and history involved.

Let me take this further and say the EU pushing east into the previous soviet lands is more likely to cause a world war with Russia that people like Trump,there is no place for the EU in this world in my view.Problems between us and Ireland are our problems and we must work it out it is not there business never has been never will be.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"i basically still think that in the end the hard border will be between the mainland and northern ireland... and way will basically dare the DUP to both vote against it, and vote against her in a no confidence motion.... both which i think the DUP won't do because the thought of a corbyn government to them is the worst of two evils....

may has basically let the tail wag the dog....... "

i am not sure they will accept it regardless of whom is in number 10, they will see a border in the Irish sea as one step toward reunification and that's too far for them or their core vote..

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

It's accept not except

And s Ireland is the Eu in this case

And the US as you put it , or the UK (don't associate me with the cluster fuck ) actually will have almost no say . There will be no border . And the trade deal will be fudged (I mean carefully orchestrated ) around it

I still am amazed so many voted to leave knowing that the UK has almost no leverage for beneficial negotiation

I fully accept the UK has enough clout to establish a "not TOO bad " arrangement but never could it be better and the years and years of argument

Sigh

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

may has basically let the tail wag the dog.......

i am not sure they will accept it regardless of whom is in number 10, they will see a border in the Irish sea as one step toward reunification and that's too far for them or their core vote.."

they will have no choice ... the republican vote has grown in such a way that the curve shows the movement to out poll unionism by 2021 ... reunification is inevitable, despite what some forumites who are stuck in the 1980's may believe

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wonder would a hard border take us back to the mess that was there before ? , is there an appetite amongst the old brigade to go back to bloodshed ?

If it dose happen I think it will be a younger generation that hasn't experienced the troubles that would be the instigation of violence ,

I would rather hope the seasoned campaigners on both sides would know better ,

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

may has basically let the tail wag the dog.......

i am not sure they will accept it regardless of whom is in number 10, they will see a border in the Irish sea as one step toward reunification and that's too far for them or their core vote..

agree on the demographics and the inevitable changes this will bring politically, were politics to be pragmatic and for the best of all there may be a chance to resolve the issue but its not that way in most places let alone NI..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

may has basically let the tail wag the dog.......

i am not sure they will accept it regardless of whom is in number 10, they will see a border in the Irish sea as one step toward reunification and that's too far for them or their core vote..

northern ireland is just a unionist experiment that was always doomed to failure... time to move on

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

As Ireland is part of the EU, asking them to "keep their meddling noses out" betrays a profound lack of understanding."

Exactly, its not just a border between the Republic and Northern Ireland but also the UK and EU.

And the Irish have chosen to use all the leverage at their disposal and reserved the right to veto trade talks if May cant pull her head out of...wherever it might be and come up with a workable solution.

The Torys have crumbled on every single issue and at every single impasse so far. At the moment its just a lot of brinkmanship where they can go back to the extremists and say "We tried to the last minute" and then they can just do what needs to be done.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As Ireland is part of the EU, asking them to "keep their meddling noses out" betrays a profound lack of understanding.I do understand that is why I said it,you do not understand what I am saying sadly your not looking at the geography and history involved.

You say you understand it better than I, but seeing as you've decided that Ireland is somehow distinct from the rest of the EU for the purposes of this particular problem, I don't think you actually do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

With Liam Fox's comments over the weekend, yoi can clearly see he has put his ideology ahead of the needs of the country, and hasn't shown that he cares at all about the people of NI.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

fuss over ... liam fox says a final decision on the Northern Irish border cannot be made until a UK-EU trade deal has been agreed .... so considering he has been wrong about absolutely everything he's ever said then ireland is good to go on whatever it wants

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By *ichael McCarthyMan
over a year ago

Lucan

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with."

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

It is a pattern that replicated all over news sites and social media across the country. When joined up thinking, compromise and an appraisal of all the facts is needed - youcan be sure that a Brextremist will come out with nonsense like this.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”

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By *ichael McCarthyMan
over a year ago

Lucan

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”"

Lol

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with."

Good man yourself, that's the sort of blue sky thinking we need. A wee bit of ethnic cleansing would sort it all. Tried and tested.

Seriously though. No. It was that sort of attitude that got the UK into this mess.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"fuss over ... liam fox says a final decision on the Northern Irish border cannot be made until a UK-EU trade deal has been agreed .... so considering he has been wrong about absolutely everything he's ever said then ireland is good to go on whatever it wants

Well he is completely wrong and so was PM May in her stupid speech.

An internal referendum, be it advisory or binding cannot overide international law. Even WTO rules require a border unless a pre-exiting Customs Union is in place.

It is completely embarrassing to this country that a man in his position does not know the difference between a free trade agreement and a customs union. Then again, if he doesn’t know, is it any wonder that most the Brexiters haven’t got a clue either.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”"

And then, instead of creating FTAs around the world, we are going to take back the empire. We are going to invade the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma and half of Africa.

Hang on, we should probably check to see if we have scrapped our amphibious assault vessels yet. Has anyone seen Albion or Bulwark lately?

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By *utandbigMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth

Well he is completely wrong and so was PM May in her stupid speech.

An internal referendum, be it advisory or binding cannot overide international law. Even WTO rules require a border unless a pre-exiting Customs Union is in place.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”

Hang on, we should probably check to see if we have scrapped our amphibious assault vessels yet. Has anyone seen Albion or Bulwark lately? "

Both shown as being at Plymouth since you ask.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”"

I'm a brextremist

Not bad to say I voted remain.

Anyway , it was tongue in cheek.... to some extent....

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

Got to love the UKip charm offensive today.

Step 1. Belittle and threaten Ireland, call it subserviant to both the EU and the UK.

Step 2. Apologise and ask nicely that we bail them out of their clusterfuck by joining them outside the EU.

Its like someone storming out of the bar in to the rain after an argument and then wondering why you wont join him.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Yes. May started by putting so called red lines over the border and good Friday agreements. The complex relationship with Ireland is no surprise to the UK government - they have known about and talked about it since day one.

The government appears largely incapable of moving along a clearly mapped plan, where all requirements were known about in advance

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"Yes. May started by putting so called red lines over the border and good Friday agreements. The complex relationship with Ireland is no surprise to the UK government - they have known about and talked about it since day one.

The government appears largely incapable of moving along a clearly mapped plan, where all requirements were known about in advance "

With the exception of John Major, no tory leader in recent times has given a damn about Northern Ireland. Both Major and Blair warned of the destabilising effect of leaving the EU. I don't believe that the peace process has any value to the conservatives.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Totally incorrect, the Government is only following the "will of the people" didn't you know

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What worries me most is that as a result of a hard border will this see a resurgence of the Para military's of the past. Both Sein Fein & DUP were well connected to these groups. I wouldn't like to see the IRA bombing mainland UK again.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 01/12/17 09:40:37]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What worries me most is that as a result of a hard border will this see a resurgence of the Para military's of the past. Both Sein Fein & DUP were well connected to these groups. I wouldn't like to see the IRA bombing mainland UK again. "

The UKIPERs dont give two flying fucks about Ireland as long as we get out of the EU thats all that matters to them...im guessing some are that ideologically driven they would probably cut off there right arms for it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power ! "

Really ...do you really think the DUP would go for it....the spent years fighting it !!!!!

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"There clearly IS a problem with the border.

But surely the biggest problem is that we don’t know WHAT the problem is until we know what trade arrangements there will/won’t be between the U.K. and EU.

Only AFTER we know these arrangements can we look at a border solution for them?

Are we/EU trying to put the cart before the horse?

And yes...the OP has a point in much of it is political posturing both sides of the border.

Really?

While Northern Ireland remains part of the UK I also find the thought of an internal border totally unacceptable.

As with much else about leaving the EU, the BREXITers just simply didn't think it through. There is no way you can avoid having a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic unless they are in the same customs union. There is also no way you can avoid a hard border between Great Britain and either parts of Ireland unless they are in the same customs union.

There is only one way to avoid hard borders between Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the republic and that's for all to be part of the same custom union. This leaves only two possibilities:- 1 The UK and the Republic remain within the current EU customs union, 2 Both the UK and The republic leave the current current EU customs union and forms a customs union of their own.

Any introduction of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic would be a material breach of the Good Friday agreement. The question is is, is the UK going to stand by it's obligations under that agreement or not?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"let's contextualise it ... isle of man, sark, alderney, etc etc etc

All islands with no land borders with another EU member...what context?"

The context that you can be British, a part of the British Isles but not in a customs union with Great Britain. In other words put the hard border in the Irish Sea.

That's not an option I would actually support by the way.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"There will be a final deal on trade or there won’t! Fact....(as this is mutually exclusive)

This will involve tariffs or it won’t! Fact....(again mutually exclusive)

If no tariffs are involved then no need for a customs border.

If tariffs are involved then some kind of customs border is required by the EU.

Hence the border issue depends on the type of deal (or no deal) arrived at.

The deal is the horse. The border issue is the cart."

There also had to be regularity compliance and, if not part of the same customs union, country of true origin checks. Tariffs are just a part of it, and probably the smallest part of it to.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

If they do she has to manage to put 120 plus trade deals together in 120 days ,

Basically yeah, she's absolutely screwed. Part of the reason that Cameron hightailed it out of there straight away.

The Irish will veto moving on to trade talks if they arent happy and the Torys have no ideas on what to do.

I said back in July 2016 that BREXIT would crumble over the Irish issue. There is no solution that doesn't involve a full customs union between the UK and the Republic.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”"

There is actually a pretty sound economic argument for the Republic leaving the EU if the UK leaves. The UK is Irelands biggest single customer and, after years of being in the doldrums after independence, the Irish economy only really started to forge ahead after it joined a customs union with the UK (through the EU). It would also solve the Northern Ireland border problem.

Can't see it happening though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”

Can't see it happening though."

Ireland knows where it's best interests are. They have been 2nd class citizens to the UK for years. ( no offense to the Irish ).

Just because the UK has put its hand in the fire, why should the Irish do the same?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I'm not sure if they'd be willing to cut their own right arm of but I'm pretty sure they'd be willing to cut yours, mine, the people of Northern Ireland or anyone else's right arm of for it.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”

Can't see it happening though.

Ireland knows where it's best interests are. They have been 2nd class citizens to the UK for years. ( no offense to the Irish ).

Just because the UK has put its hand in the fire, why should the Irish do the same? "

I'm not in favour of BREXIT and would not support IXIT either. I'm just putting forward an argument that does have some logical merit for people to think about. It also highlights the point that this whole EU argument is not just about economics.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power ! "

No, they wouldn't. That's why the power sharing agreement has broken down.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan
over a year ago

Lucan

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power ! "

Sweet Jesus, you can't be serious, can you?

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power ! "

Wow - just wow

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power ! "

I don't anything about you, but I'm confident enough to say that you're not the sharpest tool in the shed. NI is an economic black hole since the creation of the state.

One thing that has become so glaringly obvious as a result of is how little the 'man in the street' knows or understands about Northern Ireland and Ireland.

After Brexit when the Union Jack is redundant, the replacement flag should be a mushroom to symbolise that the UK citizens have been fed shit and kept in the dark.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power ! "

You're right.

I would be fucking surprised if that happened.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan
over a year ago

Lucan

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2016/07/25/what-would-happen-if-the-north-were-asked-to-pay-for-itself-tomorrow

There are some relevant statistics in the above article for anyone who thinks that an independent 6 county state is an option.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

Really ...do you really think the DUP would go for it....the spent years fighting it !!!!!"
No ! The DUP spent years fighting against a united Ireland !

I'm suggesting an independent Northern Ireland !

Which would mean the border would be up to both Irelands to sort !

Not us !

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power ! "

Sorry fella but that is the most out of touch thing anyone has said on this forum in relation to NI..

its beyond ignorant and shows a complete lack of any understanding of just how entrenched still the divide is..

in an ideal world or an alternative universe maybe but not in your or my lifetime..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

independenc
"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

Really ...do you really think the DUP would go for it....the spent years fighting it !!!!! No ! The DUP spent years fighting against a united Ireland !

I'm suggesting an independent Northern Ireland !

Which would mean the border would be up to both Irelands to sort !

Not us !"
Independence is not supported by any parties.Its a fringe view

Much like English independence

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

but reunification is supported by the majority of those who live on the island

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"but reunification is supported by the majority of those who live on the island"

It's not an option if you want peace with the Unionist community; even the Irish government aren't pushing for reunification any time soon.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

Really ...do you really think the DUP would go for it....the spent years fighting it !!!!! No ! The DUP spent years fighting against a united Ireland !

I'm suggesting an independent Northern Ireland !

Which would mean the border would be up to both Irelands to sort !

Not us !"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Border is now definitely a problem

Donald Tusk just said it's up to the irish if talks on trade deal move on

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By *LLY69Man
over a year ago

Gorey

"but reunification is supported by the majority of those who live on the island"

Based on what figures?

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"I say remove the fucking Irish that see a bleeding border an issue to start with.

Remove them from where?

How exactly?

Please remember that when you read or hear anything from a Brextremists it will be a simple (and generally stupid) solution carved from a thought process that is unable to cope with complexities.

In a similar vein I have heard...

“ Well if Southern Ireland (sic) left the EU as well, there wouldn’t be a problem.”

“Let’s just join up the south with the north - problem solved.”

“The Irish would welcome being back in Britain and that way, we all win.”

Can't see it happening though."

Nope. We know our future lies with the EU. We stand to make some significant gains from Brexit. There will be some losses alright but we'll be fine in the short, mid and long term right where we are.

The Irish economy only started to gain steam in the mid nineties. It was still in the doldrums in the 80s when most countries were doing well.

Breaking out from the EU and signing up to a free trade area with Britain (no guarantee that would happen either) would be worse for our economy in the short, mid and long term. While a lot of our economy is entwined in the UK, the benefits of staying in the EU post Brexit far outweigh the theoretical free trade area of Britain and Ireland.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"independencThe solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

Really ...do you really think the DUP would go for it....the spent years fighting it !!!!! No ! The DUP spent years fighting against a united Ireland !

I'm suggesting an independent Northern Ireland !

Which would mean the border would be up to both Irelands to sort !

Not us ! Independence is not supported by any parties.Its a fringe view

Much like English independence

"
Its a view I've had a while

it would suit both sides

Sin Fien won't gain out of a united ireland !

Hi back a few years who would have predicted the chuckle brothers

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

Sorry fella but that is the most out of touch thing anyone has said on this forum in relation to NI..

its beyond ignorant and shows a complete lack of any understanding of just how entrenched still the divide is..

in an ideal world or an alternative universe maybe but not in your or my lifetime.. "
It's an idea that's never been considered ?

All I'm suggesting is a return to To the Stormont assembly but give them total power !

I suspect both sides would jump at it !

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

Sorry fella but that is the most out of touch thing anyone has said on this forum in relation to NI..

its beyond ignorant and shows a complete lack of any understanding of just how entrenched still the divide is..

in an ideal world or an alternative universe maybe but not in your or my lifetime.. It's an idea that's never been considered ?

All I'm suggesting is a return to To the Stormont assembly but give them total power !

I suspect both sides would jump at it !

can i speak as a civil servant for two seconds....

trust me..... it will never work!!!

when one side always has the power to play the "religious veto" card over the other.... let me tell you that nothing ever gets done quickly.........

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By *ichael McCarthyMan
over a year ago

Lucan

"independencThe solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

Really ...do you really think the DUP would go for it....the spent years fighting it !!!!! No ! The DUP spent years fighting against a united Ireland !

I'm suggesting an independent Northern Ireland !

Which would mean the border would be up to both Irelands to sort !

Not us ! Independence is not supported by any parties.Its a fringe view

Much like English independence

Its a view I've had a while

it would suit both sides

Sin Fien won't gain out of a united ireland !

Hi back a few years who would have predicted the chuckle brothers

You don't seem to realise that Sinn Féin is a 32 county party, not just based in the northern 6 counties. The ending of partition is one of its key aspirations but only one. When partition ends SF will not be left in limbo as you seem to think.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"The solution is an independent Northern Ireland !

Don't dismiss it !

I think you would be surprised , the DUP and Sinn Fien would soon work together to keep power !

Sorry fella but that is the most out of touch thing anyone has said on this forum in relation to NI..

its beyond ignorant and shows a complete lack of any understanding of just how entrenched still the divide is..

in an ideal world or an alternative universe maybe but not in your or my lifetime.. It's an idea that's never been considered ?

All I'm suggesting is a return to To the Stormont assembly but give them total power !

I suspect both sides would jump at it !

do some research..

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By *ilent.KnightMan
over a year ago

Swindon

"but reunification is supported by the majority of those who live on the island

Based on what figures? "
its an odd measure too. It’s like a UK/oz vote to see if we should get oz into the uk.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan
over a year ago

Lucan

"but reunification is supported by the majority of those who live on the island

Based on what figures? its an odd measure too. It’s like a UK/oz vote to see if we should get oz into the uk."

I'm baffled by the utter absurdly of the above. I don't know whether to recommend a geography book or a history book. I can't imagine either one getting through anyway. I'm guessing you have no idea of how the partition of Ireland came about and why the line was drawn where it was by the British government's "government of Ireland act 1920".

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

This is the result of trying to make an unutterably complicated situation in leaving the EU seem simple and straightforward by making it a Yes/No decision

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