FabSwingers.com forum: Ireland to veto trade talks

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

EU chiefs back Irish threat to veto Brexit trade talks.

Ireland’s threats to veto Brexit trade talks unless there is a guarantee of no hard border in the North have been backed by EU chiefs ahead of crunch talks next month.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar made the demand for a guarantee on a frictionless border to British prime minister Theresa May in Sweden amid concerns of a “deepening rift” over Brexit between EU nations and Britain.

He told reporters that for months Ireland had only been given assurances of no hard border, adding: “And we want that written down in practical terms in the conclusions of phase one.

“What we want to take off the table before we even talk about trade is any idea that there would be a hard border, a physical border or a border resembling the past. Then we’d be happy to move on to phase two.”

London needs to advance to phase two talks to hammer out a new trade deal with the EU. However, sufficient progress must be made on the Irish question before then. The North has become the key sticking point before EU leaders decide next month to advance talks.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

I thought this was going to be the "easiest thing in the world"?

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By *parky4gMan
over a year ago

Cambridgeshire

It’s all such a mess toys and pram spring to mind

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"It’s all such a mess toys and pram spring to mind "

Who do you think is throwing their toys out?

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By *parky4gMan
over a year ago

Cambridgeshire

I thank they both are

We have to pay what we is but nobody can give a figure

I think they need to start talking about all things when we know what the deal maybe we would be able to get a figure that we need to pay.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Go Ireland, Leo was right, politicians in the U.K. think we are special, and can have special rights afforded to us. The truth is the U.K. are irrelevant, and everyday we are shown how inconsequential the U.K. Think of it this way, you know that situation where people leave their job thinking that everything will fall apart once they left?

That is us, we are the disgruntled employee. But fuck knows who will believe that

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

Was bound to happen, as is the reaction of the brexit shrills claiming that this is proof that the EU are out to get us...

Funny thing is it is us who are forcing brexit on the EU not the other way round, but for some reason listening to the PM and UK Brexit negotiating you get the impression that they are forcing brexit on us...

One thing is clear though, we are leaving the EU at 23.59.59 on the 28/3/2019. The Maybot and her government have already made sure that there will be no extension article 50 to the 2 year leaving period, now all they have to do is keep up this refusal to engage till next September and we will be leaving with no trade deal and the tories will then have 3 years to turn the UK into another tax haven for billionaires and multinationals while stripping us of all the rights and protections we have gained from 40 years of EU membership...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland? "

fully agree

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland? "

they could have a referendum..?

what can go wrong with that..

i also think it would be an option but would give some the excuse to go back and start being sectarian again..

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"Go Ireland, Leo was right, politicians in the U.K. think we are special, and can have special rights afforded to us. The truth is the U.K. are irrelevant, and everyday we are shown how inconsequential the U.K. Think of it this way, you know that situation where people leave their job thinking that everything will fall apart once they left?

That is us, we are the disgruntled employee. But fuck knows who will believe that

Very effective analogy

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

That is us, we are the disgruntled employee. But fuck knows who will believe that

The pre UNLOS 'i am leaving now' thread..

to the sound of tumbles ..

and scratching of right wing Tory heads..

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland? "

Yeah, fuck the UK, let's smash it to bits.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is difficult to see what difference it would make as to whether the border is hard or soft ( I write this from the perspective of a native of Northern Ireland ). Should there be a hard border all customs clearance would be electronically via scanners etc and I guess the same applies to people. In reality this is a total non issue .

It does however raise an interesting issue . Should a country which has historically been a net beneficiary of EU funding be allowed to veteo as issue such as this. The Irish economy is small in comparison to the UK and most residents of the North are very gratefull to the UK for the subsidies which they currently provide . ( irrespective of whether it is right of wrong to provide these).

I am sure that most of the cross border hauliers ( regardless of which part of the county they are based in ) are capable of resolving an issue such as this .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It is difficult to see what difference it would make as to whether the border is hard or soft ( I write this from the perspective of a native of Northern Ireland ). Should there be a hard border all customs clearance would be electronically via scanners etc and I guess the same applies to people. In reality this is a total non issue .

I am sure that most of the cross border hauliers ( regardless of which part of the county they are based in ) are capable of resolving an issue such as this ."

Would you say the same should apply to our neighbours across the North Sea and The Channel...?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

I am sure that most of the cross border hauliers ( regardless of which part of the county they are based in ) are capable of resolving an issue such as this ."

that is the sort of thinking one would expect from you Pat..

they and us are equal in having a veto, the days of the landed gentry having a vote and not you or i 'the common man' are thankfully long gone..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Any one of the 27 members could veto things at any time.

It isn’t just the Irish tee shirt. The dude from Malta has made similar noises..... with all these big economies lining up against us!

People say (some do) that the EU is not democratic. But isn’t this just democracy in action? One country out of 27/28 can derail things and dictate to the rest.... sod the unelected commissioners.... here is true democracy!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 19/11/17 19:43:59]

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

i think what will end up happening is that northern ireland will end up staying in the customs union..... as much as may's DUP backers aren't going to publically like it.... (in the background they said they wanted the softest possibly brexit anyway... so that would almost end up satisfying them)

but yeah... people in NIMBY middle england were not thinking of the people of northern ireland when they were voting.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Any one of the 27 members could veto things at any time.

It isn’t just the Irish tee shirt. The dude from Malta has made similar noises..... with all these big economies lining up against us!

Or is it just a Prime Minster putting his country first along with the peace process that has taken years to achieve?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am sure that most of the cross border hauliers ( regardless of which part of the county they are based in ) are capable of resolving an issue such as this .

that is the sort of thinking one would expect from you Pat..

they and us are equal in having a veto, the days of the landed gentry having a vote and not you or i 'the common man' are thankfully long gone.."
Your comment is a little bizarre. I never made any reference to landed gentry or common man.

However from a practical perspecti e you would expect those who contribute to have a greater say . To state the blatantly obvious those receiving subsidies will view things in a different light to those who are paying for the service.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

gaeilge reunification is the only option to be honest .... it is inevitable anyway so just get on with making it happen now

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am sure that most of the cross border hauliers ( regardless of which part of the county they are based in ) are capable of resolving an issue such as this .

that is the sort of thinking one would expect from you Pat..

they and us are equal in having a veto, the days of the landed gentry having a vote and not you or i 'the common man' are thankfully long gone.. Your comment is a little bizarre. I never made any reference to landed gentry or common man.

Aha Ireland is a net contributor to the EU....

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

I am sure that most of the cross border hauliers ( regardless of which part of the county they are based in ) are capable of resolving an issue such as this .

that is the sort of thinking one would expect from you Pat..

if its bizarre its in response to your bizarre post..

what you seem to be saying is that those who are contributing more should have more of a say than those who may be benefiting more from being in the union..?

is it that which sticks in your craw?

because that clearly is not how it is written in the constitution of the union ..

maybe if we stayed in we could propose such Victorian rules..

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"gaeilge reunification is the only option to be honest .... it is inevitable anyway so just get on with making it happen now"

This may be one way of it happening more peacefully than when the demographics of one side outvote the others..

given that the vote in Northern Ireland was to remain it is across both communities one would think..

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland? "

In that case shouldn't those who aren't happy with Brexit move to the European mainland so they can stay in the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am sure that most of the cross border hauliers ( regardless of which part of the county they are based in ) are capable of resolving an issue such as this .

that is the sort of thinking one would expect from you Pat..

Aha Ireland is a net contributor to the EU....

"
Ireland joined in 1973 and only became a net contibutor in 2014

. So for 40 years it was a net beneficiary . It can be accepted that they will be a true contributor once the forty years of net beneficiary payments have been covered.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am sure that most of the cross border hauliers ( regardless of which part of the county they are based in ) are capable of resolving an issue such as this .

that is the sort of thinking one would expect from you Pat..

Aha Ireland is a net contributor to the EU....

Ireland joined in 1973 and only became a net contibutor in 2014

. So for 40 years it was a net beneficiary . It can be accepted that they will be a true contributor once the forty years of net beneficiary payments have been covered. "

Your post again was at the very least disingenuous and the best lies....please try to tell the facts...Ireland are a net contributor im glad you admit that now

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"gaeilge reunification is the only option to be honest .... it is inevitable anyway so just get on with making it happen now

This may be one way of it happening more peacefully than when the demographics of one side outvote the others..

given that the vote in Northern Ireland was to remain it is across both communities one would think.. "

do you mean a vote on reunification to happen both sides of the irish border?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland?

Yeah, fuck the UK, let's smash it to bits.

"
.

Now your talking

Gotta tear it down to start a fresh baby

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland?

Yeah, fuck the UK, let's smash it to bits.

Now your talking

Gotta tear it down to start a fresh baby

Yeah, we could be the next Yugoslavia

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By *ilent.KnightMan
over a year ago

Swindon

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland?

In that case shouldn't those who aren't happy with Brexit move to the European mainland so they can stay in the EU. "
if we did this brexit Britain will still pay for our pensions right ? Without us paying a divorce settlement ?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"gaeilge reunification is the only option to be honest .... it is inevitable anyway so just get on with making it happen now

This may be one way of it happening more peacefully than when the demographics of one side outvote the others..

given that the vote in Northern Ireland was to remain it is across both communities one would think..

do you mean a vote on reunification to happen both sides of the irish border? "

any vote would need to be only in the North initially..

when i said demographics i was referring to the two sides in the North..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ah ok ... can't see the point of a vote . just do the right thing and get on with reunification. it is the best possible outcome after 96 years of enforced partition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland?

Yeah, fuck the UK, let's smash it to bits.

Now your talking

Gotta tear it down to start a fresh baby

Yeah, we could be the next Yugoslavia

"
.

Worked out well in the end

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oooo Yugoslavia, the country that wasn't a country but enforced by people who knew better.... How did that work out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Neo liberals, if only there was a shanking my head emoji

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It is difficult to see what difference it would make as to whether the border is hard or soft ( I write this from the perspective of a native of Northern Ireland )."

Really now, a nordie of your years who can't quite fathom why people in norn iron and the republic might have a problem with a hard border?

Pull the other fucking one, it's got bells on.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"It is difficult to see what difference it would make as to whether the border is hard or soft ( I write this from the perspective of a native of Northern Ireland ).

Really now, a nordie of your years who can't quite fathom why people in norn iron and the republic might have a problem with a hard border?

Pull the other fucking one, it's got bells on. "

He has also conveniently forgotten the role smuggling played in funding the troubles.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It is difficult to see what difference it would make as to whether the border is hard or soft ( I write this from the perspective of a native of Northern Ireland ).

Really now, a nordie of your years who can't quite fathom why people in norn iron and the republic might have a problem with a hard border?

Pull the other fucking one, it's got bells on.

He has also conveniently forgotten the role smuggling played in funding the troubles. "
.

You mean illegal activity?

I thought you were all for law and order

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It is difficult to see what difference it would make as to whether the border is hard or soft ( I write this from the perspective of a native of Northern Ireland ).

Really now, a nordie of your years who can't quite fathom why people in norn iron and the republic might have a problem with a hard border?

Pull the other fucking one, it's got bells on.

He has also conveniently forgotten the role smuggling played in funding the troubles. "
I thought that the troubles were mainly funded by various protection rackets and other forms of criminal activity including robbery. Fuel washing and cigarette smuggling still happen but hopefully with good liaison and exchange of intelligence between the various government revenue collectors it can eventually be eliminated.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

And some poor thinkers say we should 'just leave', as if there aren't significant issues that must be sorted out, to prevent the UK and other nations from calamity. They put a cross on a piece of paper and think that the rest can happen magic.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"It is difficult to see what difference it would make as to whether the border is hard or soft ( I write this from the perspective of a native of Northern Ireland ).

Really now, a nordie of your years who can't quite fathom why people in norn iron and the republic might have a problem with a hard border?

Pull the other fucking one, it's got bells on.

He has also conveniently forgotten the role smuggling played in funding the troubles. .

You mean illegal activity?

I thought you were all for law and order

Yes, I am against illegal activity that funds terrorism and devastates communities. Can you say the same, or is your first thought to just take the opposite position from whatever I say?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Leo Varadkar is a lot of things, most of them awful, but he has the right of it here.

The brexit brain trust has long ignored NI in their stupid plans, so it's about time that came to an end.

Of course it also serves to highlight what the UK is walking away from, on it's own Ireland wouldn't be able to extract this kind of concession from the UK, but as part of the EU it has the superior bargaining position and is using it well.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This is probably the biggest sticking point since we divided the island of Ireland. Maybe it's time to give the north back, and those who aren't happy move to UK mainland?

In that case shouldn't those who aren't happy with Brexit move to the European mainland so they can stay in the EU. "

Some are - people leaving the UK since the vote has increased. So yes your right!

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

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By *tillup4funMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense."

It gives the EU the upper hand the talks go no further until the UK agree to whats been discussed up to now. I,d call it cheating but what do I know.

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense."

Lol again you do not understand

Ireland have said they do not want any hard border . That is that . This frames the future trade talks but does not need them to begin it means UK has less choices at trade talks time ie the UK will have to pay for passporting rights or have a proper customs border between n Ireland and uk mainland

Silly out voters have not a clue what they have done

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

Lol again you do not understand

Silly out voters have not a clue what they have done

What a condescending attitude you have.

If the trade talks result in continued free trade the border issue is partially self solving.

Talking about things in isolation in an 'order' is ridiculous. Anyone who has been involved in any negotiation knows that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

Lol again you do not understand

Silly out voters have not a clue what they have done

What a condescending attitude you have.

If the trade talks result in continued free trade the border issue is partially self solving.

Talking about things in isolation in an 'order' is ridiculous. Anyone who has been involved in any negotiation knows that."

Really then i bet you havnt been involved in many trade negotiations then...because YOU always have an agreed agenda and stick to them...

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

Lol again you do not understand

Silly out voters have not a clue what they have done

What a condescending attitude you have.

If the trade talks result in continued free trade the border issue is partially self solving.

Talking about things in isolation in an 'order' is ridiculous. Anyone who has been involved in any negotiation knows that.

Really then i bet you havnt been involved in many trade negotiations then...because YOU always have an agreed agenda and stick to them...

I've been involved in plenty of complex commercial negotiations, thanks. If anybody tried to do them one point at a time, they'd be laughed out of the room. A negotiation, by definition, requires discussion and compromise in one area in return for reciprocal compromise in another.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

Lol again you do not understand

Silly out voters have not a clue what they have done

What a condescending attitude you have.

If the trade talks result in continued free trade the border issue is partially self solving.

Talking about things in isolation in an 'order' is ridiculous. Anyone who has been involved in any negotiation knows that.

Really then i bet you havnt been involved in many trade negotiations then...because YOU always have an agreed agenda and stick to them...

Me too and as i said YOU have a agreed and set agenda BEFORE you even start...you should already know this if you are

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

Really then i bet you havnt been involved in many trade negotiations then...because YOU always have an agreed agenda and stick to them...

Me too and as i said YOU have a agreed and set agenda BEFORE you even start...you should already know this if you are

I can't understand what you are talking about or the significance of your capiltalisation.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

What really amuses me about this discussion is the idea that many here (and in the country) think there are any real negotiations taking place. There are not.

The EU are not negotiating, they are waiting for the UK to make an acceptable offer and tell them what the UK wants after it leaves the EU in 16 months time. The EU position is simple, sort out the divorce bill and the NI before there will be any talk about access to EU markets. Everything must be concluded at least 6 months before the leaving date of 29/3/19. Nothing of this position has changed since the referendum and it is a safe bet nothing will change. The question is having wasted nearly half the time we have to get a civilised divorce settlement how much more time will these arseholes who caused this waste playing a game of chicken they can't win!

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense."

The U.K. has said very publicly that the U.K. will leave the Customs Union and the single market. The U.K. has set out its stance on trade and therefore Ireland and the EU quite rightly want to know how that squares with an open border. The positions of being outside the CU and SM and having an open border are mutually incompatible. Further the indicated direction of travel by the U.K. which is less regulation and a divergence away from EU conformity standards pushes the prospect of any kind of open border well down the road.

It is great to be positive and to “get behind Brexit” but the clowns at the front aren’t doing any of us any favours.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Really then i bet you havnt been involved in many trade negotiations then...because YOU always have an agreed agenda and stick to them...

Me too and as i said YOU have a agreed and set agenda BEFORE you even start...you should already know this if you are

I can't understand what you are talking about or the significance of your capiltalisation."

I didnt expect you would tbh

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

Lol again you do not understand

Silly out voters have not a clue what they have done

What a condescending attitude you have.

If the trade talks result in continued free trade the border issue is partially self solving.

Talking about things in isolation in an 'order' is ridiculous. Anyone who has been involved in any negotiation knows that."

Yes and the Irish pm has clarified that position why would he wait in limbo to discover what may happen . He is making clear his position

But of course many who voted exit don't care about pragmatic people being left in limbo

Failing to plan is planning to fail

The Eu and it's members have a plan

It certainly appears the UK does not

As a UK business man I have planned for the worst , even if I hope for the best

But hope is never ever ever ever pragmatic

Many hope to win the lottery

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

British banks will lose "passporting rights" to do business in the European Union after Brexit, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator has said.

Eu has also set up a group to prepare for a no deal brexit ,

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

It is great to be positive and to “get behind Brexit” but the clowns at the front aren’t doing any of us any favours. "

Leaving the customs union and single market doesn't necessarily mean trade tariffs. It might do. If the uk reverts to wto rules, then a goods customs check will need to be implemented somehow.

That's why the two topics need to be discussed in tandem.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

It is great to be positive and to “get behind Brexit” but the clowns at the front aren’t doing any of us any favours.

Leaving the customs union and single market doesn't necessarily mean trade tariffs. It might do. If the uk reverts to wto rules, then a goods customs check will need to be implemented somehow.

That's why the two topics need to be discussed in tandem."

It isn't just about tariffs though is it. it is about origination and conformity as well. Why is the British media broadcasting the "Singapore idea"? It must be coming from someone inside the cabinet and that kind of deregulation is wholly incompatible the European CE kitemarked harmonisation. The EU cannot have an open border with a country whose plan is an express divergence away from EC harmonisation.

We are being led by donkeys who have ZERO idea how to negotiate and who are leaking information that is making the whole negotiation process much more difficult than it needs to be.

All that the EU are doing is asking a very simple question - how does your stated position fit with an open border? May, Davis & Co have not answered because they can't answer and it just makes the UK team look like the blundering fools that they are.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

Leaving the customs union and single market doesn't necessarily mean trade tariffs. It might do. If the uk reverts to wto rules, then a goods customs check will need to be implemented somehow.

That's why the two topics need to be discussed in tandem.

We are being led by donkeys who have ZERO idea how to negotiate and who are leaking information that is making the whole negotiation process much more difficult than it needs to be.

That situation exists now. Anyone in an eu state could import goods that are not legal for onward sale. They could sell them on in their own country or export them across open borders into another. Selling non-compliant goods is illegal, and would remain so.

The situation with negotiators is another matter. Politicians' ineptness isn't limited to this.

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

It is great to be positive and to “get behind Brexit” but the clowns at the front aren’t doing any of us any favours.

Leaving the customs union and single market doesn't necessarily mean trade tariffs. It might do. If the uk reverts to wto rules, then a goods customs check will need to be implemented somehow.

That's why the two topics need to be discussed in tandem."

Your not understanding the point

Indeed the future might be rosy

The Irish pm is informing the UK that what ever it may be planning , Ireland will not be accepting a hard boarder ?

Not sure why you think he should wait until the unplanned trade talks before he gives us this information

If the UK rolls over and accepts all Eu rules and legislation then there will be no hard boarder that's correct but to assist the peace process the sooner the two fighting sides know this the better

It seems you have a non argument

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"How can the border issue be resolved until the trade talks have been? Surely they go hand in hand.

I don't get doing it all one step at a time, it makes no sense.

It is great to be positive and to “get behind Brexit” but the clowns at the front aren’t doing any of us any favours.

Leaving the customs union and single market doesn't necessarily mean trade tariffs. It might do. If the uk reverts to wto rules, then a goods customs check will need to be implemented somehow.

That's why the two topics need to be discussed in tandem."

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

Your not understanding the point

Indeed the future might be rosy

The Irish pm is informing the UK that what ever it may be planning , Ireland will not be accepting a hard boarder ?

Not sure why you think he should wait until the unplanned trade talks before he gives us this information

If the UK rolls over and accepts all Eu rules and legislation then there will be no hard boarder that's correct but to assist the peace process the sooner the two fighting sides know this the better

It seems you have a non argument"

There's a few points. Firstly Ireland unilaterally cannot say they will not accept a hard border. The uk could implement a hard border if they wished. It would be foolish, and I don't hink anybody wants it at all. But it's not in another country cannot simply not accept it.

Also, he said he did not want a border resembling those of the past. That is completely understandable, as they were gun turrets and were the epitome of a divided / ruled territory.

The simplest way to solve the problem is to begin trade talks asap and develop a tariff free system that negates the need for a customs check altogther. i.e Discuss it in tandem.

If this failed, I cannot see it logically moving on the the re-installation of armoured check-points. They aren't normally needed in customs

It's feasible to have goods only areas for example like hgv pull-ins or even not have a physical location at all. Lots of international shippers pay and collect vat and duty automatically from compterised invoicing. There isn't a HMRC guy rummaging through every box with his calculator and tariff chart.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with."

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Your not understanding the point

Indeed the future might be rosy

The Irish pm is informing the UK that what ever it may be planning , Ireland will not be accepting a hard boarder ?

Not sure why you think he should wait until the unplanned trade talks before he gives us this information

If the UK rolls over and accepts all Eu rules and legislation then there will be no hard boarder that's correct but to assist the peace process the sooner the two fighting sides know this the better

It seems you have a non argument

Also, he said he did not want a border resembling those of the past. That is completely understandable, as they were gun turrets and were the epitome of a divided / ruled territory.

The simplest way to solve the problem is to begin trade talks asap and develop a tariff free system that negates the need for a customs check altogther. i.e Discuss it in tandem.

If this failed, I cannot see it logically moving on the the re-installation of armoured check-points. They aren't normally needed in customs

Have you ever been in northern Ireland ,??

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to."

When?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?"

Not a clue i knew it lol

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

Have you ever been in northern Ireland ,??

Yes, a few times.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?"

Next Tuesday.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to."

A good example of this has just recently happened. The UK /EU tried to do exactly this on the basis that the UK has the same share as it has now - say 10% and the EU 90%. World trade wouldn't be affected but it was rejected by 5 countries: USA, NEW ZEALAND, BRAZIL, THIALAND & ARGENTINA. So theory doesn't always work in practice. I think it was agriculture - but not sure.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

So, discuss the trade agreement and the border issue together

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?

Next Tuesday."

Next tuesday, the UK is going to meet with all the countries that have FTA with the EU, and ask them to sign a new FTA with the UK on exactly the same terms?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

So, discuss the trade agreement and the border issue together

The UK already made its position it's leaving the customs union , if it's out of the customs union there needs to be a border ,

Your in or your out its one or the other ,

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?

Next Tuesday.

Next tuesday, the UK is going to meet with all the countries that have FTA with the EU, and ask them to sign a new FTA with the UK on exactly the same terms?"

It was flippant, as you know. We can discuss replication of those deals with those countries at a mutually convenient time.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

So, discuss the trade agreement and the border issue together

The UK already made its position it's leaving the customs union , if it's out of the customs union there needs to be a border ,

Your in or your out its one or the other ,

No, because the customs union is a very specific thing. It isn't the only mechanism of having tariff-free trade.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

If you look up goggle earth there is a farmer up there after building a shed out in the middle of a field with the border passing through the shed he can walk in one end in the south and out the other and be in the north

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

That's illegal smuggling. If farmers in the Republic start herding cattle over the hills to Northern backstreet abattoirs, to sell to back street butchers, I'm sure it will be investigated.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

So, discuss the trade agreement and the border issue together

The UK already made its position it's leaving the customs union , if it's out of the customs union there needs to be a border ,

Your in or your out its one or the other ,

No, because the customs union is a very specific thing. It isn't the only mechanism of having tariff-free trade."

So why is the uk leaving the customs union ?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

That's not the point the point is they can be moved , it's an open border

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

That's illegal smuggling. If farmers in the Republic start herding cattle over the hills to Northern backstreet abattoirs, to sell to back street butchers, I'm sure it will be investigated."

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

So, discuss the trade agreement and the border issue together

The UK already made its position it's leaving the customs union , if it's out of the customs union there needs to be a border ,

Your in or your out its one or the other ,

No, because the customs union is a very specific thing. It isn't the only mechanism of having tariff-free trade.

So why is the uk leaving the customs union ? "

We might be in 'a' customs union with the eu in the future. As I understand the existing one does not cover financial services, and necessitates acceptance of ECJ jurisdiction.

We can negotiate a free trade agreement that negates the need for Republic/ Northern border checks.

But, as I've said, they need to be done together. Same goes for all aspects of leaving - the divorce bill, movement, borders, trade. That's how a negotiation would be handled by people with a will to reach a successful conclusion.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?

Next Tuesday.

Next tuesday, the UK is going to meet with all the countries that have FTA with the EU, and ask them to sign a new FTA with the UK on exactly the same terms?

It was flippant, as you know. We can discuss replication of those deals with those countries at a mutually convenient time."

AFTER we leave the EU and those deals expire.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

That's illegal smuggling. If farmers in the Republic start herding cattle over the hills to Northern backstreet abattoirs, to sell to back street butchers, I'm sure it will be investigated."

Yes, which funded terrorism in the past.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?

Next Tuesday.

Next tuesday, the UK is going to meet with all the countries that have FTA with the EU, and ask them to sign a new FTA with the UK on exactly the same terms?

It was flippant, as you know. We can discuss replication of those deals with those countries at a mutually convenient time.

AFTER we leave the EU and those deals expire."

The new deal can start then. It can be discussed when we want.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?

Next Tuesday.

Next tuesday, the UK is going to meet with all the countries that have FTA with the EU, and ask them to sign a new FTA with the UK on exactly the same terms?

It was flippant, as you know. We can discuss replication of those deals with those countries at a mutually convenient time.

AFTER we leave the EU and those deals expire.

The new deal can start then. It can be discussed when we want."

So have we started discussing it yet? Do you honestly believe there will be a seamless transition and there won't be 1 single day without tariffs between these countries and the UK?

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?

Next Tuesday.

Next tuesday, the UK is going to meet with all the countries that have FTA with the EU, and ask them to sign a new FTA with the UK on exactly the same terms?

It was flippant, as you know. We can discuss replication of those deals with those countries at a mutually convenient time.

AFTER we leave the EU and those deals expire.

The new deal can start then. It can be discussed when we want.

So have we started discussing it yet? Do you honestly believe there will be a seamless transition and there won't be 1 single day without tariffs between these countries and the UK? "

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

It will mean tariffs on all the 3rd party countries the EU currently has FTA with.

You know full well it doesn't.

It might mean that if we don't conclude an agreement with anybody. We can discuss replication of the same agreement with those countries, if us and them wish to.

When?

Next Tuesday.

Next tuesday, the UK is going to meet with all the countries that have FTA with the EU, and ask them to sign a new FTA with the UK on exactly the same terms?

It was flippant, as you know. We can discuss replication of those deals with those countries at a mutually convenient time.

AFTER we leave the EU and those deals expire.

The new deal can start then. It can be discussed when we want.

So have we started discussing it yet? Do you honestly believe there will be a seamless transition and there won't be 1 single day without tariffs between these countries and the UK?

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu."

No, I dont agree at all. I think its fairly clear, that if that were an option, we would already be doing it. Wouldn't it make our negotiating position stronger with the EU if we could tell them we already have 50 FTAs agreed to and ready to sign?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

"
I think that the farmer to whom you are referring served a prison sentence for tax evasion in the South of Ireland. The authorities were on the case .

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

Anyway, this is about the NI border. My only comment on it is that they are all banging their head against a brick wall, so long as they refuse to discuss it in tandem with trade. They are intrinsically linked issues and need discussing together.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

That's illegal smuggling. If farmers in the Republic start herding cattle over the hills to Northern backstreet abattoirs, to sell to back street butchers, I'm sure it will be investigated.

Yes, which funded terrorism in the past. "
However animals are now tagged and there is extensive co operation between governments to prevent smuggling and fuel washing . I thought that most terrorism on both sides were funded by robberies, theft, protection rackets and dealing in drugs.

With modern technology and tracking we should be able to prevent smuggling or make the risks too high for criminals to attempt it .

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

That's illegal smuggling. If farmers in the Republic start herding cattle over the hills to Northern backstreet abattoirs, to sell to back street butchers, I'm sure it will be investigated.

Yes, which funded terrorism in the past. However animals are now tagged and there is extensive co operation between governments to prevent smuggling and fuel washing . I thought that most terrorism on both sides were funded by robberies, theft, protection rackets and dealing in drugs.

With modern technology and tracking we should be able to prevent smuggling or make the risks too high for criminals to attempt it ."

Correct. Also, when shipping goods in or out of the eu, the carrier has to know the commodity code and value of goods being shipped. That is used to calculate any duty due. It doesn't all sit waiting for Mr HMRC to sift through it all in a port or airport.

That is happening and working today with 50% of our import export trade.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No, I don't believe that. Like I said, if it were possible, we would be doing it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's laughable to think someone could suggest an open border , with one side in the customs union the other out , there is roughly 200 public road crossing points on the irish border ,

Not to mention how in the past cattle were forded across rivers to taken in boats, or through the hills and mountains.

That's illegal smuggling. If farmers in the Republic start herding cattle over the hills to Northern backstreet abattoirs, to sell to back street butchers, I'm sure it will be investigated.

With modern technology and tracking we should be able to prevent smuggling or make the risks too high for criminals to attempt it .

That is happening and working today with 50% of our import export trade."

It does when you ship it outside the EU...which we will be doing soon

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It's going to be a hard brexit

There ant going to be a trade deal done in time for anything else ,

The eu already have a group in place planning for worst case scenario ,

The eu canadian trade deal started in 2009 ,

There has never been a trade deal of this size pulled off in 16 months ,

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"It is difficult to see what difference it would make as to whether the border is hard or soft "

This does not surprise me in the slightest.

The peace in Northern Ireland is based on the two communities being happy with the current arrangements. This is an arrangement that took decades to arrive at and is quite intricate. The North has a flags commission to police the issue of what flags fly where and when they do it. For anyone to think that a hard border (eithet between NI and the Republic or between mainland Britain and NI) would not represent a serious issue is a bad joke.

It is not at all difficult to see how a massive shift in Northern Irelands relationship with Ireland and Britain could cause a myriad of problems. This is still a place where the education system is largely segragated, "peace" walls are still maintained and a DUP politician not that long ago called for the extermination of Catholics on facebook and faced no pressure to resign or even censure.

" Should a country which has historically been a net beneficiary of EU funding be allowed to veteo as issue such as this. The Irish economy is small in comparison to the UK and most residents of the North are very gratefull to the UK for the subsidies which they currently provide . "

So democracy should be based on how much money you have. Not one vote each but 1 vote per billion maybe? The landed gentry in control indeed.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

With modern technology and tracking we should be able to prevent smuggling or make the risks too high for criminals to attempt it ."

like narcotics? pmsl

... we can't even keep them out of prisons

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal."

You keep peddling this falsehood that it's the EU's priority to have a deal on EU/UK citizens rights. It's been explained to you time and time and time again this was a UK priority long before the EU made any indication it was a priority for them. The UK tried to do a deal on EU/UK citizens rights (in December 2016) a full 3 months before article 50 was triggered in March 2017. If it was such a priority for the EU as you suggest then the EU would have done a deal on it in Dec 2016 when the UK first brought it up. The EU refused a deal and so exposed themselves that the rights of their citizens really is not a priority at all, certainly not as much of a priority that the UK placed on it.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal.

I dont peddle falsehoods, I leave that to the Brexiters.

And as I have said to you on at least 3 occassions the EU and UK can both consider it a priority. This isnt a situation where one side can call it theirs like calling shotgun to get the front passenger seat.

And the EU didnt do the deal then because 1) May tried to do the deal on a one to one basis in a ham fisted attempt to divide the EU and 2) the offer was derisory and has been rejected as being insufficient so there was never an acceptable offer on the table and nearly a year later there still isnt.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal.

I think you'll find its been pointed out many times that we needed to officially declare we we're bloody leaving first by triggering A50 before any post A50 talks could begin.

That's been the UK's problem from the start... thinking we're so fucking great and important to try and dictate this whole mess when any fucker with half a brain cell understands the only body able to dictate the process is the EU.

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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago

The Council of Elrond

"i think what will end up happening is that northern ireland will end up staying in the customs union..... as much as may's DUP backers aren't going to publically like it.... (in the background they said they wanted the softest possibly brexit anyway... so that would almost end up satisfying them)

but yeah... people in NIMBY middle england were not thinking of the people of northern ireland when they were voting..... "

If that were to happen then Scotland should get the same deal staying in the single market and customs union.

The Tories caused this mess they can fix it if not wave goodbye to the UK for good yay

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal.

I think you'll find its been pointed out many times that we needed to officially declare we we're bloody leaving first by triggering A50 before any post A50 talks could begin.

But your not talking to people who are thinking rationally...good old England first etc etc...the super race and all that bollocks

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal.

I dont peddle falsehoods, I leave that to the Brexiters.

Really you should make your mind up. In one post you say it's an EU priority and not a UK priority then the very next post you say it's both an EU and a UK priority.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal.

I dont peddle falsehoods, I leave that to the Brexiters.

Really you should make your mind up. In one post you say it's an EU priority and not a UK priority then the very next post you say it's both an EU and a UK priority.

Im sure they have adult literacy programs near you if you require them. But I didnt state anywhere that the citizens werent a priority for the UK or the Tories. I said that the EUs priorities came first while the Tories came second. If youre unable to infer the full meaning here allow me to explain it for you in lots of detail so that you can keep up with the rest of us.

If its a priority for the EU its in phase 1. If its not then its in phase 2.

If its a priority for the Tories, it doesnt matter because the EU are the ones with the leverage. If its not a priority for the Tories it still doesnt matter because the Tories still have no leverage.

So: EU priority, non Tories priority = phase 1

Non EU priority, Tories priority = phase 2

EU priority, Tories priority = phase 1

So you can see the commonality here, right? You understand why things are in phase 1 and why things are in phase 2 and you can see that its based on what the EU wants and nothing at all to do with what the Tories want. Thats because Brexits a stupid idea and the Tories are ill equipped to manage it and David Davis pitifully and embarrassingly completely wilted and capitulated at the first opportunity insteadnof fighting "The Battle of the Summer".

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal.

I dont peddle falsehoods, I leave that to the Brexiters.

Really you should make your mind up. In one post you say it's an EU priority and not a UK priority then the very next post you say it's both an EU and a UK priority.

If its a priority for the EU its in phase 1. If its not then its in phase 2.

So: EU priority, non Tories priority = phase 1

Non EU priority, Tories priority = phase 2

EU priority, Tories priority = phase 1

Don't try and bullshit your way out of this one, it's there in black and white on your posts earlier in the thread. Honestly what do you take people for? You clearly said "the EU's priorities are the 3 issues in Phase 1" (meaning EU/Uk citizens rights, The Northern Ireland border and the Divorce bill) . Then you clearly said "The UK's priorities is phase 2" (meaning a trade deal). So you clearly tried to peddle the falsehood that EU/UK citizens rights was not a UK priority even though it's been explained to you on multiple occasions that the UK had stated this as a priority a full 3 months before article 50 was triggered and long before the EU indicated it was a priority for them. Then in your next post you changed tac and said it was a priority for both the UK and the EU, LOL! Honestly if anyone needs lessons in adult literacy here its you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, I assume you agree, we could have those discussions, and a new agreement can come in to force immediately (or 1 day after) we leave the eu.

Ok, personally, I believe it is perfectly possible and probably you know it's possible too.

No they dont and no they wont.

The UK agreed to sequencing, that was their choice.

The EUs priorities are the 3 issues in phase 1. The UKs priority is phase 2.

The UK can agree to leave Northern Ireland within the customs union if it wants without needing to discuss the rest of Britains trading relationship with the EU.

There will be a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will be agreed or theres not going to be a deal.

I dont peddle falsehoods, I leave that to the Brexiters.

Really you should make your mind up. In one post you say it's an EU priority and not a UK priority then the very next post you say it's both an EU and a UK priority.

If its a priority for the EU its in phase 1. If its not then its in phase 2.

So: EU priority, non Tories priority = phase 1

Non EU priority, Tories priority = phase 2

EU priority, Tories priority = phase 1

There not there the EU's priorities...whats hard to understand....if Davis and crew had there way they wouldnt be talking about citizens rights...they would be talking trade jeeez

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

Oh dear, watching you grasping at straws is almost sad.

I know,its been another hard day for the Brexiters crying their brexitears. The Tories are unstable, the UK lost hundreds of jobs and stature with the loss of EU agencies, Maybot is upping her offer to 40bn and hoping that the EU will take pity on her and accept, the ECJ will continue to have a role in the UK justice system, Sir Ivan Rogers has said today that it is impossible to have a frictionless border without staying in the customs union and Bernier has said that if the UK ditches certain EU regulations there'll be no deal.

But look on the bright side, you get to rename the Eurotunnel to the Getlink tunnel! And isnt that the kind of meaningless symbolic change youve mortgaged your countries future for?

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By *heislanderMan
over a year ago

cheshunt

Oh dear, watching you grasping at straws is almost sad.

But look on the bright side, you get to rename the Eurotunnel to the Getlink tunnel! And isnt that the kind of meaningless symbolic change youve mortgaged your countries future for?"

Ok, I’m Irish and have lived in London for nearly 20yrs. I voted to remain but I now accept that the majority has voteted differently, I’m going to try and make the best of the situation that I can, i might be very naive but does anyone on here really believe that the MP’s are here to do the best for us ???

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

Oh dear, watching you grasping at straws is almost sad.

But look on the bright side, you get to rename the Eurotunnel to the Getlink tunnel! And isnt that the kind of meaningless symbolic change youve mortgaged your countries future for?

MPs are going to do whats best for them, and usually that means working for the people who finance them or the people who elect them. There are some good politicians, but that mix of competent, effective and on the side of the people is hard to come by.

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By *heislanderMan
over a year ago

cheshunt

Oh dear, watching you grasping at straws is almost sad.

But look on the bright side, you get to rename the Eurotunnel to the Getlink tunnel! And isnt that the kind of meaningless symbolic change youve mortgaged your countries future for?

Yes,100% right, they’ll look after who feathers their nest. This is why I’m very selfish but I do what’s good for me.

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

People tend to select the news that suits their case. So if you want to paint a bleak picture of things you may highlight the (fairly obvious) “ news” that the European Medicines Agency will be located in...er .. Europe. If you prefer a positive outlook you might look instead at the decision of Siemens to invest and create new jobs in the UK while cutting jobs in Europe.

I think the truth is that it is impossible to say at this point whether exiting the EU will be a positive or negative factor overall in terms of the economy over the next few years, although it is fair to say that uncertainty in itself is not a good thing

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

Well said

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"People tend to select the news that suits their case. So if you want to paint a bleak picture of things you may highlight the (fairly obvious) “ news” that the European Medicines Agency will be located in...er .. Europe. If you prefer a positive outlook you might look instead at the decision of Siemens to invest and create new jobs in the UK while cutting jobs in Europe.

But its not impossible to say. Its quite easy to look at an event and look at the factors that affect that event and determine what comes next.

If you drop an egg from a 12 storey building straight to the ground you know its going to break. You can know this because a) experience tells you this is the case, or b) if you'd never dropped an egg you could calculate it by looking at velocity, impact and the strength of the egg shell.

At the moment we're in a situation where we've never dropped an egg and 1 group is saying these are the things that will affect the egg once its dropped and another group is covering its eyes and saying "No, no, you cant possibly know whats going to happen because we cant measure velocity and speed and Ive never heard of tensile strength so thats probably not important. Just have faith in the egg because it was laid by British hen and thats the most important factor anyway."

So if you want to look at the effect of Brexit you look at the individual parts. A well known example is the financial industry.

If (or when) the UK loses their passporting rights that means UK business will lose £20bn a year in financial services exports to the EU.

Right there we can estimate how much tax will be lost and we can also look at how many jobs are supported by that £20bn. We can also look at how many other businesses are supported by that as well. For example if a bank has an office of 30 people dedicated to selling health insurance in the French market, that office could close. Thats 30 people unemployed, cleaners, office equipment suppliers, IT services, phone and internet suppliers etc. who have all lost a customer and will be down revenue.

So the exchequer loses the tax on the revenue that office generated, the income tax on those wages and the taxes the suppliers would have owed (VAT, corporation tax etc.)

And we also know that the UK isnt going to start selling an extra £20bn in financial services to British people and that if they want to sell to other countries then those countries are going to want something of equal value in return.

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

But your analogy is not good. The certainty you claim simply isn’t there. I have seen no credible analysis which remotely comes near to your claimed impact on the city- those numbers sound more like the wilder fantasies of the over excited in Paris Dublin and Frankfort hoping to profit from some wished for demise of London as the financial capital of Europe. We will see. Of course I can have no more certainty than you that the City will maintain its position, but I rather think you will be disappointed. I’m not comfortable myself, as it happens, with the size and power of the city within our economy- but I expect that it will continue to hold its position-good or bad thing as that may be- both within the UK as well as in Europe and the world. I’ve not seen any major financial institution in recent months indicate that it thinks very differently- and they have been planning alternatives to passporting for many months. Of course a few jobs will need to be relocated, but already firms which were making blood curdling suggestions of wholesale removals of headquarters ( naturally enough to pressure the government) have revised plans to the establishment of some branch offices.

It will of course be essential to secure agreements on such matters as regulatory frameworks- but this is an area where Europe really does have as much potentially to lose as do we. Distasteful as it is in many ways, while fishermen and farmers may prove to be sacrificeable amid the horse trading, the bankers and financiers won’t be. Here if nowhere else agreements will be reached out off mutual self interest.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"But your analogy is not good. The certainty you claim simply isn’t there. I have seen no credible analysis which remotely comes near to your claimed impact on the city- those numbers sound more like the wilder fantasies of the over excited in Paris Dublin and Frankfort hoping to profit from some wished for demise of London as the financial capital of Europe. We will see. Of course I can have no more certainty than you that the City will maintain its position, but I rather think you will be disappointed. I’m not comfortable myself, as it happens, with the size and power of the city within our economy- but I expect that it will continue to hold its position-good or bad thing as that may be- both within the UK as well as in Europe and the world. I’ve not seen any major financial institution in recent months indicate that it thinks very differently- and they have been planning alternatives to passporting for many months. Of course a few jobs will need to be relocated, but already firms which were making blood curdling suggestions of wholesale removals of headquarters ( naturally enough to pressure the government) have revised plans to the establishment of some branch offices.

The Oliver Wyman report originally had the £20bn figure and reports since then have backed that up.

You expect that the financial companies wont change but offer no real rationale for that to be the case. If theres £20bn in revenue that can no longer be collected due to the loss of passporting (and assuming that May doesnt concede sovereignty to get equivalency) then how do you expect nothing to change?

Are Brits going to spend an extra £20bn a year on financial services?

Are those companies going to keep the staff who worked on that £20bn in employment when the work and the profits are gone?

Are they going to pay £5bn in taxes on revenue they didnt collect?

Saying it wont change doesnt make it so. Do you not remember the last recession? In the lead up to it most people thought the good times would just continue just because its what theyd grown used to. But times change and so can things like the financial hub, just ask the miners from the 80s who thought they had jobs for life.

And Europe has absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain if firms flee London. All those jobs, all the suppliers that will gain extra business and all that tax revenue will be very welcome in the EU. Theres absolutely no benefit in letting London keep their financial centre for the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

this is just musings ... written in very good english ... but it's just musings ... these musings are like a pig with lipstick on ... it's still a pig though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But its not impossible to say. Its quite easy to look at an event and look at the factors that affect that event and determine what comes next.

While I largely agree with you, I'm offended by your ignorance in trying to equate the pseudoscience of economics (large potential for curveballs) to the hard science of physics.

You denied being a cheerleader of the demise of "the city" previously but I'm not so sure.

I think you are probably right but who knows what could happen.

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

I see the question as whether regulatory equivalence under MIFID2 will enable financial institutions based in London and in Europe to operate as fluidly as now under the passporting rules.There is a strong mutual interest in achieving that end.I don’t pretend to know with certainty what the outcome will be and am unimpressed by those who think they do. It will be interesting in, say, three years time to look back.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

But its not impossible to say. Its quite easy to look at an event and look at the factors that affect that event and determine what comes next.

While I largely agree with you, I'm offended by your ignorance in trying to equate the pseudoscience of economics (large potential for curveballs) to the hard science of physics.

You denied being a cheerleader of the demise of "the city" previously but I'm not so sure.

I think you are probably right but who knows what could happen. "

Im a United fan, but ask me who I think will win the league this year and Ill say City. Whether I like whats going to happen or not doesnt blind me to looking objectively at whats going to happen.

Economics is only lacking when you dont have enough information and,yes, in many cases enough information is impossible to come by. But there are also many things that can be easily predicted, the City losing out on £20bn in revenue does also mean the exchequer losing out on £5bn in direct tax and the full time jobs that deal with those accounts. Theres no other outcome there. The degree that will affect supplier businesses, other jobs within the financial sectors etc. is less obvious and remains to be seen. But only the degree is unknown because there will certainly be an effect.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OK I'm not reading the news so you'll have to fill me in.

Where is this 20bn loss coming from?

Is a loss of passporting rights set in stone?

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"I see the question as whether regulatory equivalence under MIFID2 will enable financial institutions based in London and in Europe to operate as fluidly as now under the passporting rules.There is a strong mutual interest in achieving that end.I don’t pretend to know with certainty what the outcome will be and am unimpressed by those who think they do. It will be interesting in, say, three years time to look back. "

Equivalence is a step down from passporting and it was well down the list of the Citys hopes for Brexit.

Youve mentioned that you believe theres a strong mutual interest in London maintaining its financial centre, but what is the EUs interest in propping up an ex-members financial centre instead of aiming to get the benefits of:

Tens of thousands of highly paid jobs

Huge increases in corporation tax, VAT and income tax

Lowering social payments

Bringing in huge customers for local businesses

And how do you square that view with the EU already deciding to take Euro clearing away from London and the fact that most countries in the EU have been in discussions with London financial firms about leaving London to relocate to the EU?

It seems not only do the EU not have an interest in London keeping the financial firms but that the EU are already acting on their interest in gaining those firms.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"OK I'm not reading the news so you'll have to fill me in.

Where is this 20bn loss coming from?

Is a loss of passporting rights set in stone? "

£20bn is the amount that the City makes in selling services to the EU each year. Bernier has said this week that passporting is not happening, something that most of the firms had resigned themselves to already.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OK grand but it's not over until the fat lady sings.

Losing 20bn could be a strong catalyst for a change of mind or backdown.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"OK grand but it's not over until the fat lady sings.

Losing 20bn could be a strong catalyst for a change of mind or backdown. "

True, but rational thinking seems to have gone out the window. 39% of Brexiters are ok with themselves or a close family member losing their job because of Brexit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK I'm not reading the news so you'll have to fill me in.

Where is this 20bn loss coming from?

Is a loss of passporting rights set in stone?

That 20bn directly contributes £5bn in taxes as well so its a significant hit to the exchequer. In fact £5bn is almost the amount of money that the UK pays to be in the EU each year so in just this one part of Brexit theyve wiped out almost all financial gain of leaving. And if there was an accurate way to measure the indirect tax loss (income tax for employees, increase in social payments for unemployed, loss of VAT, corporation tax and income tax from suppliers) it would count for even more."
I cannot see anyone losing too much sleep over an issue such as this. A senior German Politician ( Hans Olaf Henkel ) an MEP and former head of the German Federation of Industry said it's view was that Britain should have the best deal possible .

Predictions of job losses and damage to out economy can be ignored . To date none of the predictions of Project Fear have materialised.

A booming stock exchange and car sales close to an all time high is hardly indicative of a county facing major issues.

Banks will hardly want to incur the costs of moving staff abroad.

Luckily the UK has a great government who will negotiate a deal that is satisfactory to all parties.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK grand but it's not over until the fat lady sings.

Losing 20bn could be a strong catalyst for a change of mind or backdown.

True, but rational thinking seems to have gone out the window. 39% of Brexiters are ok with themselves or a close family member losing their job because of Brexit."

Yeah but talk is cheap when the harsh reality is in the distant future.

My best guess while admitting that I've no crystal ball is that brexit will be cancelled or extremely soft in the end.

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

I do think minds will only fully concentrate - on both sides - as it gets nearer and nearer. It was always going to be the case- I remember David Davis saying so when he was appointed. I still think the likeliest outcome is a relatively soft Brexit- in the sense that the core deal will be that we will continue to be paying a substantial contribution into EU funds one way or another in exchange for a range of agreements covering trade in goods and services. That at least is I think the outcome which would tick most of the self interest boxes. The process on securing agreement on the EU side could bugger things up of course. That could result in a hard Brexit.

I don’t see a likely path to withdrawal from Brexit, but all things are possible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK grand but it's not over until the fat lady sings.

Losing 20bn could be a strong catalyst for a change of mind or backdown.

True, but rational thinking seems to have gone out the window. 39% of Brexiters are ok with themselves or a close family member losing their job because of Brexit."

I don't have a Job

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK grand but it's not over until the fat lady sings.

Losing 20bn could be a strong catalyst for a change of mind or backdown. "

A more realistic approach might be summarised as below in an extract from a more balanced publication . It will be simply a question of swings and roundabouts with a few minor tweaks to how we conduct businness .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I can see big bad Europe being civil enough to accept a more win/win style arrangement rather than punishing the UK for being an upstart with a grand vision but a darth of planning.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"OK I'm not reading the news so you'll have to fill me in.

Where is this 20bn loss coming from?

Is a loss of passporting rights set in stone?

That 20bn directly contributes £5bn in taxes as well so its a significant hit to the exchequer. In fact £5bn is almost the amount of money that the UK pays to be in the EU each year so in just this one part of Brexit theyve wiped out almost all financial gain of leaving. And if there was an accurate way to measure the indirect tax loss (income tax for employees, increase in social payments for unemployed, loss of VAT, corporation tax and income tax from suppliers) it would count for even more. I cannot see anyone losing too much sleep over an issue such as this. A senior German Politician ( Hans Olaf Henkel ) an MEP and former head of the German Federation of Industry said it's view was that Britain should have the best deal possible .

Predictions of job losses and damage to out economy can be ignored . To date none of the predictions of Project Fear have materialised.

A booming stock exchange and car sales close to an all time high is hardly indicative of a county facing major issues.

Banks will hardly want to incur the costs of moving staff abroad.

Luckily the UK has a great government who will negotiate a deal that is satisfactory to all parties. "

1 person in Germany says you should get a good deal. Well in that case lets ignore the all the lobbyists, companies and politicians who are in positions of actual influence. And lets ignore the actual reality of negotiations as theyve played out so far.

Do you know why the Mail, Sun and Express have a story every few weeks about some european saying Britain should get a good deal? Because its a noteworthy minority opinion and its about as positive as it can be for Brexit stories. Instead of saying a random MEP with no direct influence on negotiations aaid something why not pay attention to the man in charge of negotiations? Oh...because that doesnt suit you.

Predictions of job losses can be ignored everybody! Can someone please tell the folks who used to work in the EMA (900) and the EBA(150)? And dont forget the people who used to work for Hewden who saw such an unexpected post vote downturn they went into administration 400 jobs gone, and Hiscox who are moving to Luxembourg, 200 jobs at Interserve, the 500 jobs that were to be created from the new DMACK tyre production facility in Wales that had to be completely cancelled, 300 jobs lost at the Arcadia group due to a huge increase in imports due to the falling sterling, 300 jobs at Misco while their EU operations remain strong, 400 managers at Next, 80 at Lush, 400 at Vauxhall, 500 at Cummins Generator Technologies, 70 jobs at Gurit, 1,858 jobs at Monarch, 480 at Mitie.

Thats over 6450 jobs gone right there. Thats already happened no matter how far you stick your head in the sand...or anywhere else.

The banks have filed their INITIAL Brexit plans with the BoE.

UBS 1500

Goldman Sachs 1000

HSBC 1000

SG 400

Boa 300

Morgan Stanley 300

And others totalling 500.

Thats another 5000 and only include initial plans and doesnt include every company.

So we're already up to 11,450 jobs so far that are confirmed lost.

And your transition period doesnt even end until 2020 which is when the worst will hit.

New car sales have fallen 6 months in a row. The car industry is in recession and that was already explained to you last week (in a post you replied to) but you have no interest in reality or listening to facts. You *prefer* to ignore anything that doesnt suit and thrn keep repeating the same misinformation.

In the year after Brexit the FTSE went up by 17% but the pound fell by 14.5% so what youre left with is a modest 3.5% increase in value. In the last year the German DAX has gone up nearly 25% and the French CAC by nearly 20%. So the UK stock market is UNDERperforming.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

As I said months ago, the two EU Agencies relocating, have gone to favoured cities. Needless to say, the newer nations aren't very happy about this, nor are the Italians, when Milan lost to Amsterdam on a drawing of lots.

Initial survies are showing that 80% of staff are planning to relocate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's the point in having these expensive nuclear bombs if we're not willing to drop one on cork!..I joke obviously,I feel just the threat of it should bring those descenters in line

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK

The banks have filed their INITIAL Brexit plans with the BoE.

UBS 1500

Goldman Sachs 1000

HSBC 1000

SG 400

Boa 300

Morgan Stanley 300

And others totalling 500.

Thats another 5000 and only include initial plans and doesnt include every company.

So we're already up to 11,450 jobs so far that are confirmed lost.

And your transition period doesnt even end until 2020 which is when the worst will hit.

"
.

The only place that lot should be relocating is to the nearest prison for a ten stretch for the wholesale fraud, theft and corruption they've perpetrated on the UK!.

It is the mark of a truly corrupt system that not only have they escaped punishment but somehow have convinced numptys that we should be worried about them leaving

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By *strokeC100Couple
over a year ago

chester

Picking out individual stories of job losses, or gains for that matter is one way of trying to support an argument. On the whole though it’s better to look at overall jobs and jobless levels.

That picture remains broadly positive. It’s interesting to note in particular that the numbers moving here from the EU continue to grow. Not something highlighted in the Guardian , Independent etc ( it’s not just the Brexit supporting press which selects its news stories to support its narrative, and a wise citizen treats all of them with caution.)

The UK economy was never going to outperform its competitors for ever. We had some relatively good years, and some others are having a relatively good year now. It is slightly disappointing to see the projected growth figures scaled back, but, as we know , these projections fluctuate, so who knows? And I’m not unduly concerned provided we can maintain overall growth and continue , gradually, to reduce the level of debt relative to GDP.

So far as the stock market is concerned, well I can only say that having been extremely worried a few years ago when I invested my savings shortly before it plunged (!) I have been very gratified, to say the least , by the subsequent growth. As for its value vis a vis the £ , well one can play games with the point at which one measures: the fall after the referendum simply put it back to where it had been two or three years before.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Come friendly bombs and drop on Cork, it isn't fit for.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Come friendly bombs and drop on Cork, it isn't fit for..... "
.

I was just hoping to single out apples headquarters

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK

The banks have filed their INITIAL Brexit plans with the BoE.

UBS 1500

Goldman Sachs 1000

HSBC 1000

SG 400

Boa 300

Morgan Stanley 300

And others totalling 500.

Thats another 5000 and only include initial plans and doesnt include every company.

So we're already up to 11,450 jobs so far that are confirmed lost.

And your transition period doesnt even end until 2020 which is when the worst will hit.

The only place that lot should be relocating is to the nearest prison for a ten stretch for the wholesale fraud, theft and corruption they've perpetrated on the UK!."

If you have knowledge that would implicate 11,450 in fraud, theft and corruption, shouldn't you be taking that to the authorities rather than spitting invective on a niche internet forum?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lol

He was talking about the boss men and is dead right.

Failed bankers get bonuses when they should be prosecuted, ordinary people pay via bailouts.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"Picking out individual stories of job losses, or gains for that matter is one way of trying to support an argument. On the whole though it’s better to look at overall jobs and jobless levels.

Ok on the whole employment was down this month, part time workers who actually want full time have increased. The number of vacancies also decreased. That points to an overall softening of the employment market which tends to lag other economic factors.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bankers are untouchable they have immunity from prosecution.They own politicians.Slaves don't throw their masters in jail.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Picking out individual stories of job losses, or gains for that matter is one way of trying to support an argument. On the whole though it’s better to look at overall jobs and jobless levels.

All the economic indicators say that the British economy is performing far worse than it should be and Brexit is the only cause. Considering Brexit hasnt actually hit yet theres no reason to think this isnt going to deteriorate."
Maybe if you lived in the UK and could see what was happening you might take a different view. Investors are confident in the future of the UK economy, the stock market has put up a fantastic performance post Brexit and those who run private companies are hardly concerned about a few tweaks to duties.

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Picking out individual stories of job losses, or gains for that matter is one way of trying to support an argument. On the whole though it’s better to look at overall jobs and jobless levels.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Maybe if you lived in the UK and could see what was happening you might take a different view. Investors are confident in the future of the UK economy, the stock market has put up a fantastic performance post Brexit and those who run private companies are hardly concerned about a few tweaks to duties.

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened . "

I guess it depends on which part of the stock market you look at, Pat. The FTSE 100 had a bit of a jump when Art 50 was triggered and we fucked our currency a bit more. but other than that, it has barely beaten inflation most of this year.

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened .

-Matt"
Fucked our currency ? Surely it is swings and roundabouts. An over valued pound makes exports much more difficult. The pound only corrected itself to a level that it was at a few years previously. One person's gain is another person's loss. It will never be a one way ticket.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You're like a broken record pat.

I just looked looked at the ftse against some other indices over 5 years - Not that pretty a picture.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened .

-Matt Fucked our currency ? Surely it is swings and roundabouts. An over valued pound makes exports much more difficult. The pound only corrected itself to a level that it was at a few years previously. One person's gain is another person's loss. It will never be a one way ticket. "

Right, and what do we do, Pat? Do we import more than we export, or do we export more than we import?

Is the cost of living for most people currently going up? Or is the cost of living for most people currently going down?

-Matt

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

Right, and what do we do, Pat? Do we import more than we export, or do we export more than we import?

Is the cost of living for most people currently going up? Or is the cost of living for most people currently going down?

-Matt"

A negative balance of trade isn't a sustainable situation. Lower Sterling will help correct that situation.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

Right, and what do we do, Pat? Do we import more than we export, or do we export more than we import?

Is the cost of living for most people currently going up? Or is the cost of living for most people currently going down?

-Matt

A negative balance of trade isn't a sustainable situation. Lower Sterling will help correct that situation."

And is it? Not as far as I can see. We've had a slight decrease in the difference this quarter, but overall the picture doesn't look much better.

-Matt

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

Right, and what do we do, Pat? Do we import more than we export, or do we export more than we import?

Is the cost of living for most people currently going up? Or is the cost of living for most people currently going down?

-Matt

A negative balance of trade isn't a sustainable situation. Lower Sterling will help correct that situation.

And is it? Not as far as I can see. We've had a slight decrease in the difference this quarter, but overall the picture doesn't look much better.

-Matt"

Large elements of it can't be quick as it requires an increase in our capacity, be it agricultural or industrial.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

Right, and what do we do, Pat? Do we import more than we export, or do we export more than we import?

Is the cost of living for most people currently going up? Or is the cost of living for most people currently going down?

-Matt

A negative balance of trade isn't a sustainable situation. Lower Sterling will help correct that situation.

And is it? Not as far as I can see. We've had a slight decrease in the difference this quarter, but overall the picture doesn't look much better.

-Matt

Large elements of it can't be quick as it requires an increase in our capacity, be it agricultural or industrial."

Uh huh. And where do those people come from to run that increased capacity? We've pissed off all the foreigners and seem unwilling to fund our own people.

-Matt

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

" Maybe if you lived in the UK and could see what was happening you might take a different view. Investors are confident in the future of the UK economy, the stock market has put up a fantastic performance post Brexit and those who run private companies are hardly concerned about a few tweaks to duties.

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened . "

I see you ignored the post disproving all your previous nonsense, which means you'll probably ignore this one too.

The UK stock market hasnt put up a fantastic performance, its performed worse than the other major stock markets and the Eurozone as a whole.

Business leaders are extremely worried about Brexit, just last monday business leaders met with Theresa May in 10 downing street and warned her that if she didnt get moving to trade next month then she was facing "a complete collapse in economic confidence in Britain".

The CBI has also been highly critical of the Brexit negotiations and has sounded off warnings for months about Brexit damaging the economy and businesses prospects.

And your lack of knowledge on this subject is highlighted again with your baseless dishonest refrain of a "few tweaks" to duties and companies being unconcerned about them.

6% vehicles (£878mn cost to UK business)

11% on clothes (£447mn)

11% footwear (136mn)

11% milk and related (105mn)

fish 11% (92mn)

17% on vegtables, fruits and nuts (55mn)

45% on tobacco (81mn)

6% plastic products (£306mn)

In total farmers will be looking at an increase of at least £462mn or an average of almost £2,500 per year.

What did the average farmer make in profits from agriculture in 2014/15? £2,100. And theyre losing out on EU subsidies.

And the WTO doesnt offer much for financial services so the City could lose 10s of billions.

And you think that theyre not worried? Let me guess, you had a pint with a farmer 6 months ago and he said things were grand for him so its all ok, right?

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

Right, and what do we do, Pat? Do we import more than we export, or do we export more than we import?

Is the cost of living for most people currently going up? Or is the cost of living for most people currently going down?

-Matt

A negative balance of trade isn't a sustainable situation. Lower Sterling will help correct that situation.

And is it? Not as far as I can see. We've had a slight decrease in the difference this quarter, but overall the picture doesn't look much better.

-Matt

Large elements of it can't be quick as it requires an increase in our capacity, be it agricultural or industrial.

Uh huh. And where do those people come from to run that increased capacity? We've pissed off all the foreigners and seem unwilling to fund our own people.

-Matt"

There are 1.5 million unemployed, however many on part time / zero hours contracts. Productivity is poor and needs improvement by various means. As you mention funding is required in investment, education and training.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Maybe if you lived in the UK and could see what was happening you might take a different view. Investors are confident in the future of the UK economy, the stock market has put up a fantastic performance post Brexit and those who run private companies are hardly concerned about a few tweaks to duties.

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened .

I see you ignored the post disproving all your previous nonsense, which means you'll probably ignore this one too.

The UK stock market hasnt put up a fantastic performance, its performed worse than the other major stock markets and the Eurozone as a whole.

The CBI has also been highly critical of the Brexit negotiations and has sounded off warnings for months about Brexit damaging the economy and businesses prospects.

And your lack of knowledge on this subject is highlighted again with your baseless dishonest refrain of a "few tweaks" to duties and companies being unconcerned about them.

6% vehicles (£878mn cost to UK business)

11% on clothes (£447mn)

11% footwear (136mn)

11% milk and related (105mn)

fish 11% (92mn)

17% on vegtables, fruits and nuts (55mn)

45% on tobacco (81mn)

6% plastic products (£306mn)

In total farmers will be looking at an increase of at least £462mn or an average of almost £2,500 per year.

What did the average farmer make in profits from agriculture in 2014/15? £2,100. And theyre losing out on EU subsidies.

And the WTO doesnt offer much for financial services so the City could lose 10s of billions.

And you think that theyre not worried? Let me guess, you had a pint with a farmer 6 months ago and he said things were grand for him aso its all ok, right?"
I would prefer to base my opinion on those who actually run business ( ranging from small to large plcs ). If they have few concerns ( and bearing in mind that they actually run business ) posting a set of figures relating to WTO terms on this forum is hardly going to make anyone change their opinions . These forums I thought were simply for expressing opinions. I would never look at any links or data posted on these forums . It can be safe to assume that any data supplied is probably biased and skewed to support the posters point of view .

In real life you might want data to make a decision but would probably do your own independent search in order to be satisfied that the data returned was not biased .

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

" Maybe if you lived in the UK and could see what was happening you might take a different view. Investors are confident in the future of the UK economy, the stock market has put up a fantastic performance post Brexit and those who run private companies are hardly concerned about a few tweaks to duties.

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened .

I see you ignored the post disproving all your previous nonsense, which means you'll probably ignore this one too.

The UK stock market hasnt put up a fantastic performance, its performed worse than the other major stock markets and the Eurozone as a whole.

The CBI has also been highly critical of the Brexit negotiations and has sounded off warnings for months about Brexit damaging the economy and businesses prospects.

And your lack of knowledge on this subject is highlighted again with your baseless dishonest refrain of a "few tweaks" to duties and companies being unconcerned about them.

6% vehicles (£878mn cost to UK business)

11% on clothes (£447mn)

11% footwear (136mn)

11% milk and related (105mn)

fish 11% (92mn)

17% on vegtables, fruits and nuts (55mn)

45% on tobacco (81mn)

6% plastic products (£306mn)

In total farmers will be looking at an increase of at least £462mn or an average of almost £2,500 per year.

What did the average farmer make in profits from agriculture in 2014/15? £2,100. And theyre losing out on EU subsidies.

And the WTO doesnt offer much for financial services so the City could lose 10s of billions.

And you think that theyre not worried? Let me guess, you had a pint with a farmer 6 months ago and he said things were grand for him aso its all ok, right? I would prefer to base my opinion on those who actually run business ( ranging from small to large plcs ). If they have few concerns ( and bearing in mind that they actually run business ) posting a set of figures relating to WTO terms on this forum is hardly going to make anyone change their opinions . These forums I thought were simply for expressing opinions. I would never look at any links or data posted on these forums . It can be safe to assume that any data supplied is probably biased and skewed to support the posters point of view .

In real life you might want data to make a decision but would probably do your own independent search in order to be satisfied that the data returned was not biased ."

you do talk some twaddle..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Maybe if you lived in the UK and could see what was happening you might take a different view. Investors are confident in the future of the UK economy, the stock market has put up a fantastic performance post Brexit and those who run private companies are hardly concerned about a few tweaks to duties.

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened .

I see you ignored the post disproving all your previous nonsense, which means you'll probably ignore this one too.

The UK stock market hasnt put up a fantastic performance, its performed worse than the other major stock markets and the Eurozone as a whole.

The CBI has also been highly critical of the Brexit negotiations and has sounded off warnings for months about Brexit damaging the economy and businesses prospects.

And your lack of knowledge on this subject is highlighted again with your baseless dishonest refrain of a "few tweaks" to duties and companies being unconcerned about them.

6% vehicles (£878mn cost to UK business)

11% on clothes (£447mn)

11% footwear (136mn)

11% milk and related (105mn)

fish 11% (92mn)

17% on vegtables, fruits and nuts (55mn)

45% on tobacco (81mn)

6% plastic products (£306mn)

In total farmers will be looking at an increase of at least £462mn or an average of almost £2,500 per year.

What did the average farmer make in profits from agriculture in 2014/15? £2,100. And theyre losing out on EU subsidies.

And the WTO doesnt offer much for financial services so the City could lose 10s of billions.

In real life you might want data to make a decision but would probably do your own independent search in order to be satisfied that the data returned was not biased .

you do talk some twaddle..

"
Another constructive and highly objective comment . Much appreciated.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

" Maybe if you lived in the UK and could see what was happening you might take a different view. Investors are confident in the future of the UK economy, the stock market has put up a fantastic performance post Brexit and those who run private companies are hardly concerned about a few tweaks to duties.

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened .

I see you ignored the post disproving all your previous nonsense, which means you'll probably ignore this one too.

The UK stock market hasnt put up a fantastic performance, its performed worse than the other major stock markets and the Eurozone as a whole.

The CBI has also been highly critical of the Brexit negotiations and has sounded off warnings for months about Brexit damaging the economy and businesses prospects.

And your lack of knowledge on this subject is highlighted again with your baseless dishonest refrain of a "few tweaks" to duties and companies being unconcerned about them.

6% vehicles (£878mn cost to UK business)

11% on clothes (£447mn)

11% footwear (136mn)

11% milk and related (105mn)

fish 11% (92mn)

17% on vegtables, fruits and nuts (55mn)

45% on tobacco (81mn)

6% plastic products (£306mn)

In total farmers will be looking at an increase of at least £462mn or an average of almost £2,500 per year.

What did the average farmer make in profits from agriculture in 2014/15? £2,100. And theyre losing out on EU subsidies.

And the WTO doesnt offer much for financial services so the City could lose 10s of billions.

In real life you might want data to make a decision but would probably do your own independent search in order to be satisfied that the data returned was not biased .

you do talk some twaddle..

Another constructive and highly objective comment . Much appreciated. "

To be fair, you have said that you deliberately ignore constructive and objective comments.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

" Maybe if you lived in the UK and could see what was happening you might take a different view. Investors are confident in the future of the UK economy, the stock market has put up a fantastic performance post Brexit and those who run private companies are hardly concerned about a few tweaks to duties.

If things were as site as you predict confidence in businness would collapse . To date this has not happened .

I see you ignored the post disproving all your previous nonsense, which means you'll probably ignore this one too.

The UK stock market hasnt put up a fantastic performance, its performed worse than the other major stock markets and the Eurozone as a whole.

The CBI has also been highly critical of the Brexit negotiations and has sounded off warnings for months about Brexit damaging the economy and businesses prospects.

And your lack of knowledge on this subject is highlighted again with your baseless dishonest refrain of a "few tweaks" to duties and companies being unconcerned about them.

6% vehicles (£878mn cost to UK business)

11% on clothes (£447mn)

11% footwear (136mn)

11% milk and related (105mn)

fish 11% (92mn)

17% on vegtables, fruits and nuts (55mn)

45% on tobacco (81mn)

6% plastic products (£306mn)

In total farmers will be looking at an increase of at least £462mn or an average of almost £2,500 per year.

What did the average farmer make in profits from agriculture in 2014/15? £2,100. And theyre losing out on EU subsidies.

And the WTO doesnt offer much for financial services so the City could lose 10s of billions.

In real life you might want data to make a decision but would probably do your own independent search in order to be satisfied that the data returned was not biased .

you do talk some twaddle..

Another constructive and highly objective comment . Much appreciated. "

its the appropriate response based on your tired old clap trap whenever someone puts facts in front of you..

your welcome..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I would prefer to base my opinion on those who actually run business ( ranging from small to large plcs )."

i can imagine that would be a very new and very novel experience for you if it ever happened .... maybe i could help by arranging for you to meet some friends of mine who do just that

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

" I would prefer to base my opinion on those who actually run business ( ranging from small to large plcs ).

i can imagine that would be a very new and very novel experience for you if it ever happened .... maybe i could help by arranging for you to meet some friends of mine who do just that"

Dont the CBI do that?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I would prefer to base my opinion on those who actually run business ( ranging from small to large plcs ).

i can imagine that would be a very new and very novel experience for you if it ever happened .... maybe i could help by arranging for you to meet some friends of mine who do just that

Dont the CBI do that?"

you're thinking of norman tebbit

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

" I would prefer to base my opinion on those who actually run business ( ranging from small to large plcs ).

i can imagine that would be a very new and very novel experience for you if it ever happened .... maybe i could help by arranging for you to meet some friends of mine who do just that"

Pat normally has a handy analogy to pluck from the air about pretty much every issue but does appear to have run out..

its almost surreal..

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

" I would prefer to base my opinion on those who actually run business ( ranging from small to large plcs ). If they have few concerns ( and bearing in mind that they actually run business ) posting a set of figures relating to WTO terms on this forum is hardly going to make anyone change their opinions . These forums I thought were simply for expressing opinions. I would never look at any links or data posted on these forums . It can be safe to assume that any data supplied is probably biased and skewed to support the posters point of view .

In real life you might want data to make a decision but would probably do your own independent search in order to be satisfied that the data returned was not biased ."

No you prefer to base your opinions on the stuff that backs your opinions and ignore everything else. You prattle on about that 1 guy in Northern Ireland who says his business is going to be fine as if this one opinion of his particular business is the be all and end all of all cross border trade. Why? Because it supports your opinion.

Then youve the ridiculous response of not trusting any information here no matter how well sourced, refusing to look at any research yourself and then attempting to play it off as if you've proved everyone wrong.

These forums are for discussion, that is in fact what forum is short for: discussion forum. Discussion usually involves the sharing of opinion AND information. However the more you post the more discussion gets derailed because the last 5 comments have been making fun of your tired, woeful and inept attempts at discussion. At your age you should really have mastered the art of discourse.

Not to mention that you constantly post flat out lies that youve picked up from obscure right wing media.

Now you may take offence to this, you may call the mods to slap me on the wrist but maybe you coukd take 2 minutes and look at yourself because multiple people over many threads and many months have pointed out how infantile and pointless your "contributions" are when you post the same lies over and over and deride anyone actually using evidence. You have no interest in hearing anyone elses point of view, when youre proved wrong you have no interest in changing your view point even slightly and you contribute nothing to discussion.

If I didnt know better Id say this was some bored 14 year old kid trolling the forum.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

[Removed by poster at 22/11/17 22:23:34]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 22/11/17 22:27:07]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In real life you might want data to make a decision but would probably do your own independent search in order to be satisfied that the data returned was not biased .

Not to mention that you constantly post flat out lies that youve picked up from obscure right wing media.

If I didnt know better Id say this was some bored 14 year old kid trolling the forum."
Luckily referring to someone's post as being tired , woeful and inept are a reflection of the attitude and intolerance of the poster describing someone as being inept and not a reflection on the orbital poster. The same applies to anyone who refers to flat out lies , again a reflection on the poster calling someone a liar , not the person making the post . There will always be posters on these forums who like fun at people. Again a reflection on the poster who is poking fun at someone, not the original poster.

I cannot see anyone on these forums changing their view because a few people poke fun at them. The reality check is what happens in real life , not what is posted on these forums .

There would also appear to be people posting or just pasting in facts and figures on these forums which they do not understand.

I am glad that I have never had to refer to any poster on these forums as being a liar . It is probably quite easy to do behind a keyboard . I guess someone would refrain from doing this in real life .

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

If one person calls you an ass, ignore them.

If two people call you an ass, look on the mirror.

If 3 people call you an ass, put on a harness.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If one person calls you an ass, ignore them.

If two people call you an ass, look on the mirror.

If 3 people call you an ass, put on a harness."
Or maybe just ignore all of them and assume that those who shout loudest are best to be ignored. I prefer to listen to the quiet majority . If the people making insults are a skewed sample they are best ignored . Luckily calling someone an was is not language that I would ever use . I prefer to treat people with respect .

You have however raised a very interesting point. There is an excellent article in one of today's newspapers about the attempts of a small vocal organisations attempt to silence people . It makes very interesting reading.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If one person calls you an ass, ignore them.

If two people call you an ass, look on the mirror.

If 3 people call you an ass, put on a harness. Or maybe just ignore all of them and assume that those who shout loudest are best to be ignored. I prefer to listen to the quiet majority . If the people making insults are a skewed sample they are best ignored . Luckily calling someone an was is not language that I would ever use . I prefer to treat people with respect .

Be interesting to see what rag this is ?

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"If one person calls you an ass, ignore them.

If two people call you an ass, look on the mirror.

When you rely solely on the Daily Mail to provide you with your news, you are as lost as those in the US who rely on Fox News.

I know exactly the story you are talking about and where it was printed.

You are either a decent human being or you believe in profiting from hatred, bigotry, division and hatred. That is what that story is about and you have evidently nailed your colours to the mast.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"If one person calls you an ass, ignore them.

If two people call you an ass, look on the mirror.

Be interesting to see what rag this is ?

Daily Mail moaning about the “Stop Funding Hate” campaign.

Despite them being a non political organisation devoted to the removal of bigotry and the abolition of the propaganda of hatred from the media, the Daily Mail went to war with them today because the Company “Paperchase” re-evaluated a peomotion that they had started with the Mail and decided that their brand was incompatible with the hatred and bigotry that is regularly published as “news”

Stop Funding Hate campaign against all advertisers that support the Mail, Express and Sun mainly. The reason is because they, more than anyone propagate hatred and division in our society.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" At your age you should really have mastered the art of discourse.

Strangely I think he has.

There's something to be said for having unshakeable confidence in your beliefs (even if you are myopic!).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If one person calls you an ass, ignore them.

If two people call you an ass, look on the mirror.

Be interesting to see what rag this is ?

Daily Mail moaning about the “Stop Funding Hate” campaign.

Stop Funding Hate campaign against all advertisers that support the Mail, Express and Sun mainly. The reason is because they, more than anyone propagate hatred and division in our society."

And thats the type of shit he finds interesting

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If one person calls you an ass, ignore them.

If two people call you an ass, look on the mirror.

When you rely solely on the Daily Mail to provide you with your news, you are as lost as those in the US who rely on Fox News.

I know exactly the story you are talking about and where it was printed.

You are either a decent human being or you believe in profiting from hatred, bigotry, division and hatred. That is what that story is about and you have evidently nailed your colours to the mast."
It is a very strange comment to suggest that someone is either a decent human being or they believe in profiteering from hatred .

Anything published in a newspaper is in accordance with press council guidelines .

It would be interesting to see any tangible evidence as to why anyone would consider the Daily Mails content is unacceptable .

In this case the organisation appear to have taken exception to an article written by Sarah Vine on transgender issues .

I prefer to respect the wishes of the silent majority, not a very small but vocal minority .

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