FabSwingers.com forum: universal basic income....

By *abio OP Man
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

i know this isn't really a political issue, so it will be interesting to hear different views on the subject...

would you be for/again such a proposal....

if we took out state pension and for example PIP out of the equation, for those of working age i do really like the notion as it would encourage people that work pays even at the lowest levels.... whilst giving people a chance to do other things for example if you know there is a "replacement" in earning.. such as volunteer and community work

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"i know this isn't really a political issue, so it will be interesting to hear different views on the subject...

would you be for/again such a proposal....

Would they be able to fit this community work around Jeremy Kyle, having their heads permanently in a smartphone or their daily trip to McDonalds?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

good idea .... for one, it would stop moaners from being jealous about how some in society get something that they don't .... and for another it would save an absolute fortune in administration of things like tax credits, child benefit etc etc etc. ..... i've seen various sets of sums concerning the issue and they all work out as saving billions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

UBI seems inevitable in a post job age.The alternative of leaving the surplus to requirement masses to fend for themselves in a workplace wasteland might make a great movie .

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I think this has to be introduced in the near future, prior to the next great displacement of workers by technology.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i know this isn't really a political issue, so it will be interesting to hear different views on the subject...

would you be for/again such a proposal....

Would they be able to fit this community work around Jeremy Kyle, having their heads permanently in a smartphone or their daily trip to McDonalds?

In the context of UBI the answer is:

Who gives a shit?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've been told about this but not read about it- is the idea everyone gets paid the same, basically? Surgeons and apprentices? Interesting idea.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've been told about this but not read about it- is the idea everyone gets paid the same, basically? Surgeons and apprentices? Interesting idea. "

Yup. Everyone gets the same amount of income, enough to live. If you want more you'll have to work.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the displacement of workers idea has been oversold.

AI isn't as advanced as we think and organisational costs to implement will be huge.

Think of anywhere you ever worked and how disorganised it was... Now imagine how you would go about sorting EVERYTHING out so the computers can take over.

Although maybe those companies who do... Will crush the rest and get big monopolies and winner takes all effects.

While I wish it would, I also don't see UBI happening. Governments have existed to treat their people as pawns for too long... Free money and leisure for all doesn't sit with that mind set

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think the displacement of workers idea has been oversold.

AI isn't as advanced as we think and organisational costs to implement will be huge.

Think of anywhere you ever worked and how disorganised it was... Now imagine how you would go about sorting EVERYTHING out so the computers can take over.

Although maybe those companies who do... Will crush the rest and get big monopolies and winner takes all effects.

While I wish it would, I also don't see UBI happening. Governments have existed to treat their people as pawns for too long... Free money and leisure for all doesn't sit with that mind set

I disagree, I think there's something called 'digital aristotle' if I remember correctly it could make standard teaching assistants void in a few years.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah loads of jobs are crying out for robots but some are too complicated or the job is simple but only a human can go dig for some scrap of paper to get some number off down the back of a paper archive from the early 90s.

I've seen a timeline of when it's estimated that computers will be better at than humans at certain tasks and thought that we are way off yet.

I will try find it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Found this and liked the section about disruptions and forecasting in general

https://intelligence.org/2013/05/15/when-will-ai-be-created/

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think the displacement of workers idea has been oversold.

AI isn't as advanced as we think and organisational costs to implement will be huge.

Think of anywhere you ever worked and how disorganised it was... Now imagine how you would go about sorting EVERYTHING out so the computers can take over.

Although maybe those companies who do... Will crush the rest and get big monopolies and winner takes all effects.

While I wish it would, I also don't see UBI happening. Governments have existed to treat their people as pawns for too long... Free money and leisure for all doesn't sit with that mind set

And you'd be wrong. It's probably being undersold if anything.

Automation of tasks by software is something that is very real and coming a lot sooner than you'd think. We've hit the point where we can now actually take advantage of deep learning, which is amazingly powerful. It's almost scary, but it's mostly just cool.

I guarantee whatever your job is, someone is working in a way to automate it.

We've gotten very good at teaching software to perform tasks, we don't have to "sort everything out so computers can take over" we just train it using existing data.

The only real problems now are getting the weightings right, and getting good source data.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I may be wrong, I may be right

Have some humility there brother.

You can't predict the future (but you sure can inhale mass media wholesale...)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Similar to bitcoin I'd also bet my hat that you would badly embarrass yourself if stretched beyond the very basics you read online about what machine learning is etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Similar to bitcoin I'd also bet my hat that you would badly embarrass yourself if stretched beyond the very basics you read online about what machine learning is etc.

Seeing as I understand both those things quite well, you should best go and find a new hat.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Delusions of grandeur.

What language do you code in?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Delusions of grandeur.

What language do you code in? "

Why, do you imagine you can google some quick questions to test me.

Unless there's a much, much higher paying job than the one I have now in it for me, you can forget it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Come on... What languages

I know you are bluffing. The way you think I can't imagine you writing a single line to be honest

But as with the lesson I've been trying to teach you... I could always be wrong

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Come on... What languages

I know you are bluffing. The way you think I can't imagine you writing a single line to be honest

But as with the lesson I've been trying to teach you... I could always be wrong "

Sadly, what you imagine is of little consequence.

But here's a hint: strongly typed, no memory management.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And there I was thinking that you didn't like logic

You accused me of worshipping it as a false god once.

How do you reconcile those views with your computer science prowess?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And there I was thinking that you didn't like logic

You accused me of worshipping it as a false god once.

How do you reconcile those views with your computer science prowess?

I don't believe I ever said that. You seem to be confused.

I correctly identified you as as someone who wears the trappings of what you understand logic to be, because you don't understand what it is and what its limits are.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I correctly identified you as as someone who wears the trappings of what you understand logic to be, because you don't understand what it is and what its limits are."

You'll have to elucidate on that point.....I'm all for a little more self awareness

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I correctly identified you as as someone who wears the trappings of what you understand logic to be, because you don't understand what it is and what its limits are.

You'll have to elucidate on that point.....I'm all for a little more self awareness "

I don't think I have to do anything.

Now, as entertaining as your diversion has been, it really has very little to do with UBI and the rise of automation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well seeing as you have already stamped out all dissenting opinion with the demonjohnsaysyourewrong stamp of "just because".

Maybe we should just close the thread. Job done. Case closed.

By the way. As a computer scientist what did you make of the link I gave above?

Any comments?

maybe you we should just start smashing all electronics now in case they take out jobs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well seeing as you have already stamped out all dissenting opinion with the demonjohnsaysyourewrong stamp of "just because".

Maybe we should just close the thread. Job done. Case closed.

By the way. As a computer scientist what did you make of the link I gave above?

Any comments?

maybe you we should just start smashing all electronics now in case they take out jobs "

What on earth would we do that, that's stupid.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Also, your link is not applicable, but it is interesting.

It's talking about general purpose AI.

Automation doesn't require that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How do you automate without AI?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You don't.

But there's more than one type of AI.

General purpose AIs are the sci fi AIs, where the AI is on par with people and how we think, able to learn, teach itself and turn its hand to anything.

As for automation, that's not a general purpose AI, it's an expert system. It does one job, and does it very well, but can't act outside that.

Google's AlphaGo is a good example of that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sounds like some a modern version of what Claude Shannon was up to on the 50s... That doesn't replace jobs. It's a game.

How are you going to replace jobs without AI? (I'm using the term generally here.. I know there are distinctions with machine learning etc.)

Automation is a different thing and has been around for decades in manufacturing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sounds like some a modern version of what Claude Shannon was up to on the 50s... That doesn't replace jobs. It's a game.

How are you going to replace jobs without AI? (I'm using the term generally here.. I know there are distinctions with machine learning etc.)

Automation is a different thing and has been around for decades in manufacturing. "

Traditional automation is quite rigid, if you have to manage the inputs and define every step, and yet we were able to do quite a lot with just that.

AI automation is more fluid, as it can deal with non standard inputs in the way that tradition automation just can't, it learns which traditional automation can't.

And it works in the non physical areas, which traditional automation can't.

And we don't need general purpose AI for it, in the same way most people don't require they use every ounce of brainpower to do their day to day job. Its a complete waste of time asking about it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What jobs do you think will be automated first?

How soon before cars will be designed from scratch by computers for example?

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Hold on a minute.

Sorry to but in to your techie love fest but just to get back on thread for a minute.

On one side the left are telling us that we need freedom of movement and mass immigration to fill all the job vacancies.

In the next breath they are telling us we need UBI for when we reach the post jobs era when the machines take over.

Which is it?

Then again it could be that with machines doing some jobs and immigrants doing the rest, the British left can sit on their arses drawing UBI forever.

Suddenly I am beginning to understand left wing thinking.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Hold on a minute.

Sorry to but in to your techie love fest but just to get back on thread for a minute.

On one side the left are telling us that we need freedom of movement and mass immigration to fill all the job vacancies.

In the next breath they are telling us we need UBI for when we reach the post jobs era when the machines take over.

Which is it?

It's both.

Hope that helps.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What jobs do you think will be automated first?

How soon before cars will be designed from scratch by computers for example? "

First is the wrong word, it's already begun.

Rather than list a bunch of jobs and what not, I'll bring up something that you'd reckon would be safe - writing news articles. That seems pretty hard to automate.

Thing is, odds are you've probably already read an article today written by a bot. Heliograf for example has been used at WaPo for 2016, and it's not the only one. They're currently limited to shirt, factual reports on things like sports and political results, but they already do that job better than people.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"Hold on a minute.

Sorry to but in to your techie love fest but just to get back on thread for a minute.

On one side the left are telling us that we need freedom of movement and mass immigration to fill all the job vacancies.

In the next breath they are telling us we need UBI for when we reach the post jobs era when the machines take over.

Which is it?

The first is a problem for right now, the second will be a problem in the future. Is it too hard to tell the difference?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I also feel that it's worth noting that UBI doesn't require that we have large scale of automation.

We could do it tomorrow if we wanted.

It's just that large scale automation would make the current system untenable, and UBI would be the best solution to that.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Hold on a minute.

Sorry to but in to your techie love fest but just to get back on thread for a minute.

On one side the left are telling us that we need freedom of movement and mass immigration to fill all the job vacancies.

In the next breath they are telling us we need UBI for when we reach the post jobs era when the machines take over.

Which is it?

The first is a problem for right now, the second will be a problem in the future. Is it too hard to tell the difference? "

Ah so all the immigrants who are going to solve the "problem" now are going to get UBI as well.

Sounds a tad expensive to me.

Then again there is always comrade Jezza's magic money tree.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Hold on a minute.

Sorry to but in to your techie love fest but just to get back on thread for a minute.

On one side the left are telling us that we need freedom of movement and mass immigration to fill all the job vacancies.

In the next breath they are telling us we need UBI for when we reach the post jobs era when the machines take over.

Which is it?

It's both.

Hope that helps."

Which by default takes you to my third option.

Thought so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Hold on a minute.

Sorry to but in to your techie love fest but just to get back on thread for a minute.

On one side the left are telling us that we need freedom of movement and mass immigration to fill all the job vacancies.

In the next breath they are telling us we need UBI for when we reach the post jobs era when the machines take over.

Which is it?

It's both.

Hope that helps.

Which by default takes you to my third option.

Thought so."

I feel that you wanted to end up there anyway, and as such it doesn't really matter to you what is said.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"Hold on a minute.

Sorry to but in to your techie love fest but just to get back on thread for a minute.

On one side the left are telling us that we need freedom of movement and mass immigration to fill all the job vacancies.

In the next breath they are telling us we need UBI for when we reach the post jobs era when the machines take over.

Which is it?

The first is a problem for right now, the second will be a problem in the future. Is it too hard to tell the difference?

Ah so all the immigrants who are going to solve the "problem" now are going to get UBI as well.

Sounds a tad expensive to me.

Then again there is always comrade Jezza's magic money tree."

The alternative is...? Our economy suffers now and people have no income in the future?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That should all be qualified with a maybe

You can't predict the future

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"I think the displacement of workers idea has been oversold.

AI isn't as advanced as we think and organisational costs to implement will be huge.

Think of anywhere you ever worked and how disorganised it was... Now imagine how you would go about sorting EVERYTHING out so the computers can take over.

Although maybe those companies who do... Will crush the rest and get big monopolies and winner takes all effects.

While I wish it would, I also don't see UBI happening. Governments have existed to treat their people as pawns for too long... Free money and leisure for all doesn't sit with that mind set

I disagree, I think there's something called 'digital aristotle' if I remember correctly it could make standard teaching assistants void in a few years."

When I went to school there was no such thing as teaching assistants. Just teachers.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I think the displacement of workers idea has been oversold.

AI isn't as advanced as we think and organisational costs to implement will be huge.

Think of anywhere you ever worked and how disorganised it was... Now imagine how you would go about sorting EVERYTHING out so the computers can take over.

Although maybe those companies who do... Will crush the rest and get big monopolies and winner takes all effects.

While I wish it would, I also don't see UBI happening. Governments have existed to treat their people as pawns for too long... Free money and leisure for all doesn't sit with that mind set

I disagree, I think there's something called 'digital aristotle' if I remember correctly it could make standard teaching assistants void in a few years.

When I went to school there was no such thing as teaching assistants. Just teachers."

And look how you turned out!

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Hold on a minute.

Sorry to but in to your techie love fest but just to get back on thread for a minute.

On one side the left are telling us that we need freedom of movement and mass immigration to fill all the job vacancies.

In the next breath they are telling us we need UBI for when we reach the post jobs era when the machines take over.

Which is it?

The first is a problem for right now, the second will be a problem in the future. Is it too hard to tell the difference?

Ah so all the immigrants who are going to solve the "problem" now are going to get UBI as well.

Sounds a tad expensive to me.

Then again there is always comrade Jezza's magic money tree."

I have never seen Corbyn find a £billion per vote, but I've seen May do it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maydolf Hitlers magic money tree has be been getting such a good workout lately it embarrasses any notion of the mythical labour money tree

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

simple ... everybody gets some money .... not a tricky one to comprehend to be fair

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was hoping for some more details

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working? "

You mean where does the money come from?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That would be a start

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"That would be a start "

Yeah i wondered that.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from? "

You don’t know where governments get money from?

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

"
.

You certainly don't

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

probably come from the same place where they find their money to have wars ... only it'll be a tiny fraction of the war money needed to be syphoned off for ubi

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think this has to be introduced in the near future, prior to the next great displacement of workers by technology. "
maybe they could train to service the technology as opposed to sitting there complaining their old job is redundant?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money? "

That's how you think the government get money?

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?"

How do you think the government will get the money?

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"UBI seems inevitable in a post job age.The alternative of leaving the surplus to requirement masses to fend for themselves in a workplace wasteland might make a great movie .

What is a post job age?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?

How do you think the government will get the money? "

The same place they currently get their money from!

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?

How do you think the government will get the money?

The same place they currently get their money from!"

Where do you think that is?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"UBI seems inevitable in a post job age.The alternative of leaving the surplus to requirement masses to fend for themselves in a workplace wasteland might make a great movie .

What is a post job age?"
.

Whatever age CLCC is

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think this has to be introduced in the near future, prior to the next great displacement of workers by technology. maybe they could train to service the technology as opposed to sitting there complaining their old job is redundant?"

One of the things that makes automation so attractive is that it reduces the people you need to do the same amount of work is greatly reduced.

So, no, they couldn't "train to service the technology" because even if they did there would literally not be enough jobs in said "servicing" to replace the ones lot to automation.

Though I'm not sure how you'd go about giving software a good old fashioned "service"...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the tory magic money tree which when waved produced millions in cash which they used to buy votes from the dup?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?

How do you think the government will get the money?

The same place they currently get their money from!

Where do you think that is?"

If you don't know, you shouldn't be on a politics forum.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?

How do you think the government will get the money?

The same place they currently get their money from!

Where do you think that is?

If you don't know, you shouldn't be on a politics forum. "

I'm interested to see if YOU know.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?

How do you think the government will get the money?

The same place they currently get their money from!

Where do you think that is?

If you don't know, you shouldn't be on a politics forum.

I'm interested to see if YOU know. "

I do.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?

How do you think the government will get the money?

The same place they currently get their money from!

Where do you think that is?

If you don't know, you shouldn't be on a politics forum.

I'm interested to see if YOU know.

I do."

How can you back up your answer?

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?

How do you think the government will get the money?

The same place they currently get their money from!

Where do you think that is?

If you don't know, you shouldn't be on a politics forum.

I'm interested to see if YOU know.

I do."

Can you explain to the politics forum where your knowledge on this comes from, so that we may all agree that you are indeed the politics forum Oracle and not a scab over healed skin?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

You mean where does the money come from?

You don’t know where governments get money from?

You want the government to borrow more money?

That's how you think the government get money?

How do you think the government will get the money?

The same place they currently get their money from!

Where do you think that is?

If you don't know, you shouldn't be on a politics forum.

I'm interested to see if YOU know.

I do.

Can you explain to the politics forum where your knowledge on this comes from, so that we may all agree that you are indeed the politics forum Oracle and not a scab over healed skin? "

it's hardly a secret where the government gets it's money from.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora."

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It also puts a lot of hope in government's to simplify and streamline the tax codes... History doesn't bear that out. Look at how complicated tax regimes have become in developed countries.

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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working? "

they are trialing it in a town in finland at the moment, and scotland are going to trial it in a small town in the next 18 months...

basically everyone will be given a certain amount of money on a weekly/monthly basis... and this money will replace any benefits that would normally be given (except those getting a payment for disabled/incapacity..)

this amount would be lower than what people get at the moment for job seekers.... so the incentive is still there that working in effect makes you much better off

if you can live on the UBI amount then good for you... however if you are working then your standard of living should rise...and so on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

it's hardly a secret where the government gets it's money from."

Tell us what percentage is from PAYE earners

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

it's hardly a secret where the government gets it's money from.

Tell us what percentage is from PAYE earners "

See, that's one source

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

Then we raise the tax rate?

I don't understand the point you're getting at.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Back to the topic... How do people envisage UBI working?

they are trialing it in a town in finland at the moment, and scotland are going to trial it in a small town in the next 18 months...

this amount would be lower than what people get at the moment for job seekers.... so the incentive is still there that working in effect makes you much better off

if you can live on the UBI amount then good for you... however if you are working then your standard of living should rise...and so on"

I understand that and think it's a great and fair idea but I'm pressing the naive here about how it will work in the supposed "post job age" where it would firstly need to be higher and secondly the tax base could be eroded hugely if companies don't play ball.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It also puts a lot of hope in government's to simplify and streamline the tax codes... "

No it doesn't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

Then we raise the tax rate?

I don't understand the point you're getting at."
.

You're naively acting like its an inevitability when clearly there's a lot to be calibrated.

For example aren't we holding dealing to our corporate tax rate in Ireland?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It also puts a lot of hope in government's to simplify and streamline the tax codes...

No it doesn't."

That's what you said above... You'd argue with your hand if you could

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It also puts a lot of hope in government's to simplify and streamline the tax codes...

No it doesn't.

That's what you said above... You'd argue with your hand if you could"

Then you'll have no trouble pointing out where I did, because I am very fucking sure I didn't.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

it's hardly a secret where the government gets it's money from.

Tell us what percentage is from PAYE earners

See, that's one source

Hmmm, that'll be tricky in the post job age i guess.. you'd better find some more sources! Can you think of any more?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

it's hardly a secret where the government gets it's money from.

Tell us what percentage is from PAYE earners

See, that's one source

Hmmm, that'll be tricky in the post job age i guess.. you'd better find some more sources! Can you think of any more? "

Plenty.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the magic hat where the extra money for the ballooning cost of trident comes from?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

Then we raise the tax rate?

I don't understand the point you're getting at..

You're naively acting like its an inevitability when clearly there's a lot to be calibrated.

For example aren't we holding dealing to our corporate tax rate in Ireland? "

You say that as if one precludes the other. That something is inevitable AND that it will require work to implement aren't mutually exclusive.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It also puts a lot of hope in government's to simplify and streamline the tax codes...

No it doesn't.

That's what you said above... You'd argue with your hand if you could

Then you'll have no trouble pointing out where I did, because I am very fucking sure I didn't."

Where does the money come from?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

Then we raise the tax rate?

I don't understand the point you're getting at..

You're naively acting like its an inevitability when clearly there's a lot to be calibrated.

For example aren't we holding dealing to our corporate tax rate in Ireland?

You say that as if one precludes the other. That something is inevitable AND that it will require work to implement aren't mutually exclusive."

That's retarded

It directly questions the inevitability by adding many roadblocks and potential diversions on the way.

It could go anyway... The DJSYW crystal ball might not work

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It also puts a lot of hope in government's to simplify and streamline the tax codes...

No it doesn't.

That's what you said above... You'd argue with your hand if you could

Then you'll have no trouble pointing out where I did, because I am very fucking sure I didn't.

Where does the money come from?

That isn't an answer to the question you were asked.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

Then we raise the tax rate?

I don't understand the point you're getting at..

You're naively acting like its an inevitability when clearly there's a lot to be calibrated.

For example aren't we holding dealing to our corporate tax rate in Ireland?

You say that as if one precludes the other. That something is inevitable AND that it will require work to implement aren't mutually exclusive.

That's retarded

It directly questions the inevitability by adding many roadblocks and potential diversions on the way.

It could go anyway... The DJSYW crystal ball might not work

"Retarded"? Stay classy.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"I think the displacement of workers idea has been oversold.

AI isn't as advanced as we think and organisational costs to implement will be huge.

Think of anywhere you ever worked and how disorganised it was... Now imagine how you would go about sorting EVERYTHING out so the computers can take over.

Although maybe those companies who do... Will crush the rest and get big monopolies and winner takes all effects.

While I wish it would, I also don't see UBI happening. Governments have existed to treat their people as pawns for too long... Free money and leisure for all doesn't sit with that mind set

I disagree, I think there's something called 'digital aristotle' if I remember correctly it could make standard teaching assistants void in a few years.

When I went to school there was no such thing as teaching assistants. Just teachers.

And look how you turned out!

What do you mean by that?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It also puts a lot of hope in government's to simplify and streamline the tax codes...

No it doesn't.

That's what you said above... You'd argue with your hand if you could

Then you'll have no trouble pointing out where I did, because I am very fucking sure I didn't.

Where does the money come from?

That isn't an answer to the question you were asked."

Tax code = pensions, social welfare payments, contribution from companies (to make up the PAYE shortfall)

Try not to get so caught up in semantics when defending a weak point

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

it's hardly a secret where the government gets it's money from.

Tell us what percentage is from PAYE earners "

They haven't a clue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

Then we raise the tax rate?

I don't understand the point you're getting at..

You're naively acting like its an inevitability when clearly there's a lot to be calibrated.

For example aren't we holding dealing to our corporate tax rate in Ireland?

You say that as if one precludes the other. That something is inevitable AND that it will require work to implement aren't mutually exclusive.

That's retarded

It directly questions the inevitability by adding many roadblocks and potential diversions on the way.

It could go anyway... The DJSYW crystal ball might not work

"Retarded"? Stay classy. "

Yes retarded, the informal definition. Weak shame tactics in place of a defense.

retarded

adjective

less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age.

"the child is badly retarded"

informal

very foolish or stupid.

"in retrospect, it was a totally retarded idea"

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

Then we raise the tax rate?

I don't understand the point you're getting at..

You're naively acting like its an inevitability when clearly there's a lot to be calibrated.

For example aren't we holding dealing to our corporate tax rate in Ireland?

You say that as if one precludes the other. That something is inevitable AND that it will require work to implement aren't mutually exclusive.

That's retarded

It directly questions the inevitability by adding many roadblocks and potential diversions on the way.

It could go anyway... The DJSYW crystal ball might not work

"Retarded"? Stay classy.

Yes retarded, the informal definition. Weak shame tactics in place of a defense.

retarded

adjective

less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age.

"the child is badly retarded"

informal

very foolish or stupid.

"in retrospect, it was a totally retarded idea"

You guys really don't get on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It also puts a lot of hope in government's to simplify and streamline the tax codes...

No it doesn't.

That's what you said above... You'd argue with your hand if you could

Then you'll have no trouble pointing out where I did, because I am very fucking sure I didn't.

Where does the money come from?

That isn't an answer to the question you were asked.

Tax code = pensions, social welfare payments, contribution from companies (to make up the PAYE shortfall)

Try not to get so caught up in semantics when defending a weak point

The tax code, traditionally refers to how we decide what taxes to levy, not what we spend them on.

So, no, nothing about UBI requires that we follow that soundbite of "simplify the tax code"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Semantics again. Did you have any decent points or just a naive hope that it'll all work out?

It could equally turn the first world into the third world for all you know.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the things about UBI is that replaces all other social welfare payments. So, no separate dole, or pension, or anything like that.

In addition it removes a lot of the bureaucratic overhead, as things like means testing, or proving that you're looking for work to the DWP just won't exist.

When you look at it like that, it becomes more about reorganised of existing funds than the usage of magical flora.

OK but what about if the companies who own the AI decide to not pay enough tax to replace the contribution of the displaced workers?

Then we raise the tax rate?

I don't understand the point you're getting at..

You're naively acting like its an inevitability when clearly there's a lot to be calibrated.

For example aren't we holding dealing to our corporate tax rate in Ireland?

You say that as if one precludes the other. That something is inevitable AND that it will require work to implement aren't mutually exclusive.

That's retarded

It directly questions the inevitability by adding many roadblocks and potential diversions on the way.

It could go anyway... The DJSYW crystal ball might not work

"Retarded"? Stay classy.

Yes retarded, the informal definition. Weak shame tactics in place of a defense.

retarded

adjective

less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age.

"the child is badly retarded"

informal

very foolish or stupid.

"in retrospect, it was a totally retarded idea"

Yes, clearly the issue I had was that I didn't know what the slur you were using meant.

Now, if you're quite done, you had a point I can only assume this little diversion was more important than making, but perhaps you should drag yourself back towards it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Semantics again. Did you have any decent points or just a naive hope that it'll all work out?

Yes.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

I think we will leave it there now. Can people please remember to keep things civil when debating or you may find you can't post at all.

Taken from the forum rules.

Forum Rules

In summary: If you treat other people with respect, you can't go far wrong. Don't forget that the forums are meant to be fun, if you find yourself fuming and writing long angry messages you're probably best taking a break from it.

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