FabSwingers.com forum: What Next For Spain?

By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago

Grantham

Events have come to a head, a collision course has been set.....will there be a peaceful conclusion, or will we see bloodshed?

Once home rule over Catalonia has been restored, will there be an underground movement? If so, will this be peaceful or develop into a terrorist organisation?

Many questions. I wish Spain well.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

It would seem that the logical thing would be for Spain and Catalonia to agree to a lawful referendum and implement it properly so that all of the issues can be debated and an informed decision made that can accepted by both sides. Agreeing the terms of the referendum might be problematical but maybevthat would be a start.

By the way Catalonia is a region that also reaches into southern France.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Spain has no choice now, it must take control firstly and then start a proper legal referendum on Catalonian independence.

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By *oncupiscentTonyMan
over a year ago

Kent

Depends how Rajoy plays it, if he keeps up the strongman tactics then it's just going to keep escalating, he needs to find his olive branch. Puigdemont has been nixed into the declaration by his coalition partners so has no cards left to play. The worst outcome would be a Messos - Guaria standoff, but with Rajoy I can well see that happening

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By *icklybitMan
over a year ago

Ayrshire

Where does it end?

Val dAran, a part of Catalonia, wishes to declare itself independent of Catalonia so it can re-incorporate itself with Spain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I suppose catalonia has a new national holiday.Its independence day.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

OP, the answer to your question: What Next For Spain? is really quite simple...

In a bad place, probably a very bad place, unless the situation can be defused very quickly.

There is an up sides, but it is significantly less up for Spain than it would be for any country in Northern Europe. This has happened at the end of autumn, so the temperatures are lower, now what Catalonia and Spain need is the shittist weather in 100 years with torrential freezing rain and hailstones for the next 3 months. That will give the hotheads (on both sides) time to get the jingoistic flag waving chanting looking for a fight shit out of their systems without sparking the fight that leads to the riot that ends with a massacre that starts the civil war.

It is quite a funny truism but people never seem to want to riot in bad weather (except for xmas and new year when it is rigueur to start a punch-up because 'I'm here for a good time!'

There is a problem tho, Spain has a mild climate, and as most riots happen after dark what winter gives to Spain with one hand it takes with the other.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Where does it end?

Val dAran, a part of Catalonia, wishes to declare itself independent of Catalonia so it can re-incorporate itself with Spain.

Very interesting, what if Barcelona decides it doesn't want to bankroll the rest of Catalonia and decides to seperate too?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I suppose catalonia has a new national holiday.Its independence day.

Every day is going to be a bank holiday in Catalonia when the banks pull out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !"

I read they would have to leave La Liga.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think with a real risk of a civil war a football teams problems are not that pressing to most of us....

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By *oncupiscentTonyMan
over a year ago

Kent

"I think with a real risk of a civil war a football teams problems are not that pressing to most of us....

"Mes Que un Club", as they promote themselves as (though hesitant to hitch to Puigdemonts bandwagon)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think with a real risk of a civil war a football teams problems are not that pressing to most of us....

"
would you say that to Rangers and Celtic fans of shall I ?

The two are very well linked !

As was proved in Yugoslavia !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What happens next?

Clearly civil unrest..... hopefully not leading to civil war.

Either way I bet a Brussels are bricking it...it’s not a good reflection on the EU either way?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"What happens next?

Clearly civil unrest..... hopefully not leading to civil war.

Either way I bet a Brussels are bricking it...it’s not a good reflection on the EU either way?"

Why mention the EU, but not NATO? Many brexiters on here believe that it has been NATO's efforts that have kept peace in Europe, not the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

1. What has it got to do with brexiteers or otherwise? I never mentioned that...and please don’t confuse me as such!

2. The EU have been mentioned by several from both sides as possible mediators. NATO haven’t .

3. It’s not a conflict between countries...it’s internal so nothing to do with NATO.

4. It will, however, potentially cause big problems for Spain’s already shaky economy...with knock-on effects for their major trading partners in EU

5. Why do you ALWAYS manage to chip in with Brexit on everything? Nobody on the whole thread had said anything about it.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"1. What has it got to do with brexiteers or otherwise? I never mentioned that...and please don’t confuse me as such!

2. The EU have been mentioned by several from both sides as possible mediators. NATO haven’t .

3. It’s not a conflict between countries...it’s internal so nothing to do with NATO.

4. It will, however, potentially cause big problems for Spain’s already shaky economy...with knock-on effects for their major trading partners in EU

5. Why do you ALWAYS manage to chip in with Brexit on everything? Nobody on the whole thread had said anything about it. "

You seem to have had a clear anti-EU stance for as long as I can remember, and then are using this as another opportunity to push that anti-EU narrative. Like I said, many people on here have talked about NATO keeping the peace in Europe rather than the EU, I'm interested in hearing from those people (which may include you, I cant remember) what they expect NATO to do in this situation.

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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago

south west , continental

The answer for this conundrum is very simple. Hold a referendum on independence which is legal and legitimate, where everyone gets the chance to vote in a correct manner.

Do the job correctly and you get the correct result.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !"

There is no la liga without Barca.I hope they come to the premiere leauge.Or ive always liked the idea of a European superleague of football royalty.

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By *oubepoMan
over a year ago

Spain Portugal France

Unfortunately Mariano Rajoy has proved incompetent and has missed or ignored opportunities to defuse this situation, instead he has fanned the flames and helped the growing support for separatism

The EU and King Felipe both made a very poor call of judgemet, by jumping in, on the side of Rajoy straight after the Police violence on Oct 1st

By doing so, they both fanned the flames further and eliminated themselves from potentially being the much needed.... unbiased mediators.

A lack of foresight and diplomacy or a further show of incompetence? It's hard to choose which?

Ironically the stance of Mariano Rajoy, King Felipe and the EU have not only let down the people of Catalunya but the people of Spain!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You will find that I’ve spoken out against BOTH sides when views have been extreme and unfounded. You probably assume I voted “leave”?.... sorry to disappoint there! I have, however, always respected democracy despite the reams of lies and misdirection from both sides.

The point I was making had nothing to do with Brexit, nor was it having a go at the EU. Simply pointing out the fact that if they are asked to intervene (as has been suggested) then they will have to tread carefully with great tact between the two sides.

Even you will have to admit that tact is not a strong point of the commission!

Don’t think I’ve ever commented on NATO, unless in a Trump debate. Their remit has never been internal affairs...more a “balance” of power between East and West?

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Their remit has never been internal affairs..."

That also applies to the EU, so why comment about the EU then?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The answer for this conundrum is very simple. Hold a referendum on independence which is legal and legitimate, where everyone gets the chance to vote in a correct manner.

Do the job correctly and you get the correct result."

Madrid doesnt want to give the people of Catalonia the right to vote for independence.So the only option was to take the bull by the horns

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Their remit has never been internal affairs...

That also applies to the EU, so why comment about the EU then?

Because both sides and others had suggested the EU could mediate....I bet they don’t want to.!

For me, as Spain is such a Catholic country... perhaps the Vatican would be a better idea?

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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago

Grantham

"The answer for this conundrum is very simple. Hold a referendum on independence which is legal and legitimate, where everyone gets the chance to vote in a correct manner.

Do the job correctly and you get the correct result.

Madrid doesnt want to give the people of Catalonia the right to vote for independence.So the only option was to take the bull by the horns

There is nothing in the Spanish Constitution that allows for a referendum, legal or otherwise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The answer for this conundrum is very simple. Hold a referendum on independence which is legal and legitimate, where everyone gets the chance to vote in a correct manner.

Do the job correctly and you get the correct result.

Madrid doesnt want to give the people of Catalonia the right to vote for independence.So the only option was to take the bull by the horns

There is nothing in the Spanish Constitution that allows for a referendum, legal or otherwise.

"
The serbian constitution states Kosovo is an integral part of serbia.The kosovans successfully declared independence.

Under different circumstances of course.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"The serbian constitution states Kosovo is an integral part of serbia.The kosovans successfully declared independence.

Under different circumstances of course.

How many died in that civil war?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The answer for this conundrum is very simple. Hold a referendum on independence which is legal and legitimate, where everyone gets the chance to vote in a correct manner.

Do the job correctly and you get the correct result.

Madrid doesnt want to give the people of Catalonia the right to vote for independence.So the only option was to take the bull by the horns

There is nothing in the Spanish Constitution that allows for a referendum, legal or otherwise.

The serbian constitution states Kosovo is an integral part of serbia.The kosovans successfully declared independence.

Under different circumstances of course.

And what happened?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The serbian constitution states Kosovo is an integral part of serbia.The kosovans successfully declared independence.

Under different circumstances of course.

How many died in that civil war?"

A close friend of mine was seriously injured, lost his job, ended up homeless and is still disabled as a result. I don't know why Bob is smiling about it

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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago

Grantham

Big test today, as millions of pro unity supporters take to the streets of Barcelona.

Let's hope that simmering tensions won't boil over into violence.

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By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

This time tomorrow morning we will know how this is going to go. When the government offices open and two sets of officials turn up for work and then both appeal to the police to remove the other lot.

And there is bound to be mobs of irrational frothing at the mouth extremists from both camps outside as well. I wouldn't want to be the Barcelona chief of police for any money!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Big test today, as millions of pro unity supporters take to the streets of Barcelona.

Let's hope that simmering tensions won't boil over into violence."
The pro independence supporters are probably hung over from partying for days.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Does Catalonia want to stay in the E U like the SNP do ?

If they do and arnt allowed that might end the SNP !!!

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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago

The Council of Elrond

Does anyone honestly believe The Spanish government were ever going to allow a binding referendum ? They are shit scared to allow one incase the Catalan people do choose to leave Spain

The Catalan government have a mandate from the Catalan people does that mean nothing to people now ?

I wish the Catalan people well in their new indpendent state and hope its a clean break with no bloodshed

Also let this sink in the Uk government which is speaking for England only when they say they wont recognzie a free independent Catalonia

Remember the Uk government saying the future of Gibralter is a matter for the people who live there and not for Spain yet believe the exact opposite for Catalonia bunch so glad the Tories do not speak for me or Scotland

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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago

The Council of Elrond

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

I read they would have to leave La Liga."

No they wouldnt have to leave that would be a matter for the club to decide they could decide to unregister from playing in La Liga

But they wouldnt be forced to leave.

If they choose to leave how many leagues do you think will be lining up to try and get them to play in their leagues ? Lol no brainer

Plus anyone heard the crowds at the Camp Nu ? They were all chanting for independence

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Gibraltar is an overseas dependency of the UK. Not remotely similar to Catalunya. No comparison.

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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago

The Council of Elrond

"Gibraltar is an overseas dependency of the UK. Not remotely similar to Catalunya. No comparison."

Missing the point

The UK government said that the future of Gibralter should be a matter for the people that live there and not for Spain

Do you not see the double standards as the Uk government are saying the exact opposite for Catalonia

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago

The Council of Elrond

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt"

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

Also what would you have the Catalan government do they have a mandate from the people ? Spain over the last 10 years have not been willing to chat about changing the constitution. So are people honestly saying its ok to ignore a mandate from the people ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

"
The catalans do have a mandate from the people.On the 27 September 2015 around 75% of Catalan voters had their say in which the pro-independence parties came out with an absolute majority in parliament: 48% of voters supported pro-independence parties, whereas 39% opted for unionist ones.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

The catalans do have a mandate from the people.On the 27 September 2015 around 75% of Catalan voters had their say in which the pro-independence parties came out with an absolute majority in parliament: 48% of voters supported pro-independence parties, whereas 39% opted for unionist ones.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Where does it end?

Val dAran, a part of Catalonia, wishes to declare itself independent of Catalonia so it can re-incorporate itself with Spain.

Val d'aran didn't call for a meeting tomorrow Monday to discuss it's "membership" on Catalonia

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The answer for this conundrum is very simple. Hold a referendum on independence which is legal and legitimate, where everyone gets the chance to vote in a correct manner.

Do the job correctly and you get the correct result.

Madrid doesnt want to give the people of Catalonia the right to vote for independence.So the only option was to take the bull by the horns

There is nothing in the Spanish Constitution that allows for a referendum, legal or otherwise.

The serbian constitution states Kosovo is an integral part of serbia.The kosovans successfully declared independence.

Under different circumstances of course.

"
.

That's correct this all started with Kosovo and the European courts ruling that it wasn't against international law.

It seems when the shoe is on the other foot there not so keen

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By *oncupiscentTonyMan
over a year ago

Kent

"The catalans do have a mandate from the people.On the 27 September 2015 around 75% of Catalan voters had their say in which the pro-independence parties came out with an absolute majority in parliament: 48% of voters supported pro-independence parties, whereas 39% opted for unionist ones. "

Now maths was never my strong point but...

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

I read they would have to leave La Liga.

No they wouldnt have to leave that would be a matter for the club to decide they could decide to unregister from playing in La Liga

But they wouldnt be forced to leave.

If they choose to leave how many leagues do you think will be lining up to try and get them to play in their leagues ? Lol no brainer

Plus anyone heard the crowds at the Camp Nu ? They were all chanting for independence

Do you think that clubs get to decide what league they are in, or the league gets to decide which clubs in the league?

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By *icklybitMan
over a year ago

Ayrshire

I,m sure the Finnish league would be pleased to have them.

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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago

The Council of Elrond

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

I read they would have to leave La Liga.

No they wouldnt have to leave that would be a matter for the club to decide they could decide to unregister from playing in La Liga

But they wouldnt be forced to leave.

If they choose to leave how many leagues do you think will be lining up to try and get them to play in their leagues ? Lol no brainer

Plus anyone heard the crowds at the Camp Nu ? They were all chanting for independence

Do you think that clubs get to decide what league they are in, or the league gets to decide which clubs in the league? "

You trying to say that FC Barcelona cannot unregister from playing in La Liga? Thats for the club and its members to decide they may well decide to stay with La Liga but they can unregister if they wish to do so

Also do you see La Liga throwing out one of biggest clubs in world out their league ? Lol

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

I read they would have to leave La Liga.

No they wouldnt have to leave that would be a matter for the club to decide they could decide to unregister from playing in La Liga

But they wouldnt be forced to leave.

If they choose to leave how many leagues do you think will be lining up to try and get them to play in their leagues ? Lol no brainer

Plus anyone heard the crowds at the Camp Nu ? They were all chanting for independence

Do you think that clubs get to decide what league they are in, or the league gets to decide which clubs in the league?

Also do you see La Liga throwing out one of biggest clubs in world out their league ? Lol

FC Barcelona can chose not to play, certainly. However, if La Liga don't want them in the league, then they can't play in the league.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The catalans do have a mandate from the people.On the 27 September 2015 around 75% of Catalan voters had their say in which the pro-independence parties came out with an absolute majority in parliament: 48% of voters supported pro-independence parties, whereas 39% opted for unionist ones.

Now maths was never my strong point but..."
13 % voted neither unionist or pro independence parties.

The election was over one issue. Independence. Hence the mandate from the people.

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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago

The Council of Elrond

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

I read they would have to leave La Liga.

No they wouldnt have to leave that would be a matter for the club to decide they could decide to unregister from playing in La Liga

But they wouldnt be forced to leave.

If they choose to leave how many leagues do you think will be lining up to try and get them to play in their leagues ? Lol no brainer

Plus anyone heard the crowds at the Camp Nu ? They were all chanting for independence

Do you think that clubs get to decide what league they are in, or the league gets to decide which clubs in the league?

Also do you see La Liga throwing out one of biggest clubs in world out their league ? Lol

FC Barcelona can chose not to play, certainly. However, if La Liga don't want them in the league, then they can't play in the league."

So you think La Liga will force FC Barcelona out of their league ? They would be crazy to do such a thing. One of the biggest clubs in the world and at this very moment sit top of the league and you think La liga would throw them out lol

How many leagues around Europe do you think would want FC Barcelona to play in their leagues if they choose to un register from La liga ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's also Espanyol and Girona to consider in la liga.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

I read they would have to leave La Liga.

No they wouldnt have to leave that would be a matter for the club to decide they could decide to unregister from playing in La Liga

But they wouldnt be forced to leave.

If they choose to leave how many leagues do you think will be lining up to try and get them to play in their leagues ? Lol no brainer

Plus anyone heard the crowds at the Camp Nu ? They were all chanting for independence

Do you think that clubs get to decide what league they are in, or the league gets to decide which clubs in the league?

Also do you see La Liga throwing out one of biggest clubs in world out their league ? Lol

FC Barcelona can chose not to play, certainly. However, if La Liga don't want them in the league, then they can't play in the league.

How many leagues around Europe do you think would want FC Barcelona to play in their leagues if they choose to un register from La liga ? "

It's a possibility that they will be thrown out.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

I read they would have to leave La Liga.

No they wouldnt have to leave that would be a matter for the club to decide they could decide to unregister from playing in La Liga

But they wouldnt be forced to leave.

If they choose to leave how many leagues do you think will be lining up to try and get them to play in their leagues ? Lol no brainer

Plus anyone heard the crowds at the Camp Nu ? They were all chanting for independence

Do you think that clubs get to decide what league they are in, or the league gets to decide which clubs in the league?

Also do you see La Liga throwing out one of biggest clubs in world out their league ? Lol

FC Barcelona can chose not to play, certainly. However, if La Liga don't want them in the league, then they can't play in the league.

How many leagues around Europe do you think would want FC Barcelona to play in their leagues if they choose to un register from La liga ?

It's a possibility that they will be thrown out."

Javier Tebas, the president of La Liga has said "Barcelona cannot choose where it plays if there is an independence process in Catalonia."

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By *oncupiscentTonyMan
over a year ago

Kent

"The catalans do have a mandate from the people.On the 27 September 2015 around 75% of Catalan voters had their say in which the pro-independence parties came out with an absolute majority in parliament: 48% of voters supported pro-independence parties, whereas 39% opted for unionist ones.

Now maths was never my strong point but... 13 % voted neither unionist or pro independence parties.

The election was over one issue. Independence. Hence the mandate from the people.

JxSí took 62/132 Catalan parliamentary seats (47%) and 40% of the popular vote so there was neither any absolute majority (hence the JxSí needing a coalition with CUP) nor a mandate for independence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What's going to happen with Barcelona FC ? Will they have to leave the Spanish league ?

I know it sounds trivial but it won't be trivial to thousands of thier fans !

I read they would have to leave La Liga.

No they wouldnt have to leave that would be a matter for the club to decide they could decide to unregister from playing in La Liga

But they wouldnt be forced to leave.

If they choose to leave how many leagues do you think will be lining up to try and get them to play in their leagues ? Lol no brainer

Plus anyone heard the crowds at the Camp Nu ? They were all chanting for independence

Do you think that clubs get to decide what league they are in, or the league gets to decide which clubs in the league?

Also do you see La Liga throwing out one of biggest clubs in world out their league ? Lol

FC Barcelona can chose not to play, certainly. However, if La Liga don't want them in the league, then they can't play in the league.

How many leagues around Europe do you think would want FC Barcelona to play in their leagues if they choose to un register from La liga ?

It's a possibility that they will be thrown out.

Javier Tebas, the president of La Liga has said "Barcelona cannot choose where it plays if there is an independence process in Catalonia.""
Don't forget Espaniol FC

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Why wouldn't FC Barcelona want to create a new, Catalan football league?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not enough big teams ! After Rspaniol the next team only average 5000 s match !

A bit like why Cardiff and Swansea don't play in the Welsh league !

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Not enough big teams ! After Rspaniol the next team only average 5000 s match !

A bit like why Cardiff and Swansea don't play in the Welsh league ! "

Catalonia has a larger population than Scotland, they have a league.

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By *oncupiscentTonyMan
over a year ago

Kent

"Don't forget Espaniol FC"

Seeing as the R in RCD Espanyol is for Real I think it's clear where their loyalties lean.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

it looks like your beloved catalan president is trying to turn a domestic issue into an international one...

there are rumours the big leaders of the ruling party have run off to brussels and may try to claim political asylum.......

so much for the convictions of their beliefs if true........

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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago

Grantham

[Removed by poster at 30/10/17 15:18:52]

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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago

Grantham

"it looks like your beloved catalan president is trying to turn a domestic issue into an international one...

there are rumours the big leaders of the ruling party have run off to brussels and may try to claim political asylum.......

so much for the convictions of their beliefs if true........"

No doubt trying to find favour with the undercurrent of Flemish Nationalism that exists in Belgium.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"it looks like your beloved catalan president is trying to turn a domestic issue into an international one...

there are rumours the big leaders of the ruling party have run off to brussels and may try to claim political asylum.......

so much for the convictions of their beliefs if true........"

And so much for EU unity.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"1. What has it got to do with brexiteers or otherwise? I never mentioned that...and please don’t confuse me as such!

2. The EU have been mentioned by several from both sides as possible mediators. NATO haven’t .

3. It’s not a conflict between countries...it’s internal so nothing to do with NATO.

4. It will, however, potentially cause big problems for Spain’s already shaky economy...with knock-on effects for their major trading partners in EU

5. Why do you ALWAYS manage to chip in with Brexit on everything? Nobody on the whole thread had said anything about it. "

Because trying to blame BREXIT for every and anything is one of the few pleasure we have left since 23 June last year?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The answer for this conundrum is very simple. Hold a referendum on independence which is legal and legitimate, where everyone gets the chance to vote in a correct manner.

Do the job correctly and you get the correct result."

I disagree. A referendum (or more correctly a plebiscite) on this issue where there seems not to be a clear public mood either way is more likely to be divisive rather than settle the issue. Telling half the population of Catalonia that they have to give up their EU and Spanish rights as citizens in favour of being a citizen of a country that would make Andorra look quite large is not going to bring peace and love to all.

The only peaceful way forward is the Catalonian minority independence movement to step back from the brink, remove its Unilateral Declaration of Independence and start talking to the Sovereign Spanish government about possible greater autonomy for the region.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Their remit has never been internal affairs...

That also applies to the EU, so why comment about the EU then?

Because both sides and others had suggested the EU could mediate....I bet they don’t want to.!

For me, as Spain is such a Catholic country... perhaps the Vatican would be a better idea?"

I think it would be impossible for the EU to intervene as a neutral party in a dispute between a member state and a rebellious autonomous region of that state. Your suggestion of the Vatican is more plausible. However the Vatican does have a bit of an historical track record of backing "His Most Catholic Majesty" the King of Spain and in particular against rebellious regions in Spain itself, including Catalonia. So it might not be seen even now as totally impartial.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The answer for this conundrum is very simple. Hold a referendum on independence which is legal and legitimate, where everyone gets the chance to vote in a correct manner.

Do the job correctly and you get the correct result.

Madrid doesnt want to give the people of Catalonia the right to vote for independence.So the only option was to take the bull by the horns

There is nothing in the Spanish Constitution that allows for a referendum, legal or otherwise.

There was nothing in English law that allowed a referendum of succession, until we changed it. If Catalonia wants a legal referendum on succession from Spain they'll have to start by changing the constitution.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Does Catalonia want to stay in the E U like the SNP do ?

If they do and arnt allowed that might end the SNP !!!

It's totally different. If Scotland ever votes for independence it will be via a legally held and properly run referendum and its independence would be legal. Scotland would be recognised by the remainder of the UK as an independent country and other countries would also recognise it as such. It would be able to apply to join the EU in the same way as any other European country and, when it met the preconditions (which, incidentally it currently would not) it could become a member. Catalonian is not in that situation. It has not run a legal or proper referendum, its independence is not recognised by Spain and no other country in the EU is going to recognise it as an independent nation. Without the consent of Spain Catalonia has no chance of joining the EU.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Gibraltar is an overseas dependency of the UK. Not remotely similar to Catalunya. No comparison.

Missing the point

The UK government said that the future of Gibralter should be a matter for the people that live there and not for Spain

Do you not see the double standards as the Uk government are saying the exact opposite for Catalonia

The difference is is that, whilst Spain claims sovereignty over Gibraltar it is not actually sovereign over Gibraltar and never has been. Whereas Spain is Sovereign over Catalonia and has been since the current state of Spain came into existence about 300 years ago. Catalonia was also part of the Kingdom of Aragon from 1137 onwards. The Kingdoms of Castillo and Aragon are the two states that united to form the bases of what is now Spain.

To try to argue that Catalonia is not part of Spain because someone drew a few lines on a map and asked a few people on one side of the line if they wanted to be separated from those on the other is like drawing a rough line on a map around the old English Kingdom of Wessex and trying to pretend that, because a few people say so, it's no longer part of England.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

Yes, I am saying that. It's the job of politicians in a representative democracy to act in the best interests of those they represent. That's not always the same think as acting on the wishes of those they represent. So 'yes' I am absolutely saying that politicians should sometimes ignore mandates, especially if they believe or know that following through on a mandate is going to do much more harm than good to the people whose interests they are meant to represent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

The Brexit referendum was a single issue. Voting for a representative, at whatever level, is about multiple issues. Maybe they had a better education policy than another party and so someone voted for them, even if they don't agree with independence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

Im sorry but if you vote for an independence party you cant complain if you get independence and the 2015 election in Catalonia was a single issue election.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

Im sorry but if you vote for an independence party you cant complain if you get independence and the 2015 election in Catalonia was a single issue election. "

So why didn't they declare independence in 2015?

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

Im sorry but if you vote for an independence party you cant complain if you get independence and the 2015 election in Catalonia was a single issue election. "

So is that what happened with the SNP in the 2015 general election?

I don't get that impression. Do you?

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

can we please kill the "700,000 stolen votes" narrative that certain people are still trying to push...

so lets tell the real story....

so regarding the "770,000 stolen votes"

The Catalan government estimated that up to 770,000 votes were not cast due to polling stations being closed off during the police crackdown, However..... there was a "universal census" system introduced earlier in the day which allowed electors to vote in any given polling station

so....if their local polling station was closed they could go to another that was open, and there was no town in catalonia where all the voting places were closed....

a) up to 770,000 people IF everyone had voted.... bearing in mind there was still only a 40% ish turnout.....

b) those people who couldn't vote at closed polling stations still could have voted elsewhere..... and they don't give an number for how many people did that!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

Im sorry but if you vote for an independence party you cant complain if you get independence and the 2015 election in Catalonia was a single issue election.

So why didn't they declare independence in 2015?"
Maybe because they needed a referedum .

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

Im sorry but if you vote for an independence party you cant complain if you get independence and the 2015 election in Catalonia was a single issue election.

So why didn't they declare independence in 2015? Maybe because they needed a referedum .

You say it was a single issue election, independence. And that if you wanted independence you voted for a pro independence party. So if that's true, then there would be no need for a referendum.

However, if you are talking bollocks, then there would be a need for a referendum.

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By *oubepoMan
over a year ago

Spain Portugal France

"can we please kill the "700,000 stolen votes" narrative that certain people are still trying to push...

so lets tell the real story....

so regarding the "770,000 stolen votes"

so....if their local polling station was closed they could go to another that was open, and there was no town in catalonia where all the voting places were closed....

a) up to 770,000 people IF everyone had voted.... bearing in mind there was still only a 40% ish turnout.....

b) those people who couldn't vote at closed polling stations still could have voted elsewhere..... and they don't give an number for how many people did that!!!

The option to use an alternative polling station was well publicised days before.

However the claim wasn't that 770,000 couldn't cast their vote - The claim was 770,000 papers had been stolen or papers had become inaccessible due to stations being closed

In most cases their votes were already cast. video evidence shows the ballot boxes being stolen or stations being closed down with ballot boxes containing papers still inside

Either way, it's irrelevant because there are too many irregularities on both sides, for it to be considered an accurate referendum result

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The separatist politicians have led the people up a blind alley. They knew the referendum was always going to be declared illegal yet now announce it as a victory for democracy.

This despite a 43% turn out of which 90% voted to cede.....That leaves a very very large problem for those wanting to leave..They are in the minority , the phrase rabblerousers was never more apt

You mean the 57% turnout dont forget the 700,000 votes stolen

Now if no referendum took place as Rajoy seems to think why injury people and steal ballot papers ?

The moment Rajoy ordered his state police to injury and steal votes he made sure that referendum meant something lol

A representative is not a delegate. A delegate is duty bound to vote in accordance with the wishes of majority of those who have elected them. There is no discussion of the issues the delegate just votes as instructed. A representative is duty bound to vote for what he believes to be the best interests of those they represent (actually in the British system MPs don't actually just represent their constituents but, legally, each one of them represents all British Subjects except the Sovereign and the Lords). As a representative, as opposed to a delegate, an MP is not bound by any mandate to vote anyway other than the mandate that they vote in what they believe to be in the best interests of those they represent. That's why the issues are actually debated in parliament, because members are legally free to vote as they believe to be right and not on bases of any instructions given by anyone, including those that elected them.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"can we please kill the "700,000 stolen votes" narrative that certain people are still trying to push...

so lets tell the real story....

so regarding the "770,000 stolen votes"

so....if their local polling station was closed they could go to another that was open, and there was no town in catalonia where all the voting places were closed....

a) up to 770,000 people IF everyone had voted.... bearing in mind there was still only a 40% ish turnout.....

b) those people who couldn't vote at closed polling stations still could have voted elsewhere..... and they don't give an number for how many people did that!!!

The option to use an alternative polling station was well publicised days before.

However the claim wasn't that 770,000 couldn't cast their vote - The claim was 770,000 papers had been stolen or papers had become inaccessible due to stations being closed

In most cases their votes were already cast. video evidence shows the ballot boxes being stolen or stations being closed down with ballot boxes containing papers still inside

Either way, it's irrelevant because there are too many irregularities on both sides, for it to be considered an accurate referendum result "

Added to that the fact that the referendum was illegal under Spanish law, which actually means, legally, no referendum was actually held at all.

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By *oubepoMan
over a year ago

Spain Portugal France

"can we please kill the "700,000 stolen votes" narrative that certain people are still trying to push...

so lets tell the real story....

so regarding the "770,000 stolen votes"

so....if their local polling station was closed they could go to another that was open, and there was no town in catalonia where all the voting places were closed....

a) up to 770,000 people IF everyone had voted.... bearing in mind there was still only a 40% ish turnout.....

b) those people who couldn't vote at closed polling stations still could have voted elsewhere..... and they don't give an number for how many people did that!!!

The option to use an alternative polling station was well publicised days before.

However the claim wasn't that 770,000 couldn't cast their vote - The claim was 770,000 papers had been stolen or papers had become inaccessible due to stations being closed

In most cases their votes were already cast. video evidence shows the ballot boxes being stolen or stations being closed down with ballot boxes containing papers still inside

Either way, it's irrelevant because there are too many irregularities on both sides, for it to be considered an accurate referendum result

Added to that the fact that the referendum was illegal under Spanish law, which actually means, legally, no referendum was actually held at all."

Unfortunately the legality is now also irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

This whole situation could and should have been defused

Instead Mariano Rajoy has botched up at every step and swelled the separatist numbers beyond belief

It's now a certainty that the separatist minority is now a majority in Catalunya and with the help of Mr Rajoy, the separatist movement gathers pace, momentum and international media coverage

If Spain wanted its own version of sending a gunboat up the River Liffey - Oct 1st 2017 will be remembered as that day