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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe?" How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? " I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain  | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain "Well it could lead to civil war. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war. "Well we know what side will cause that dont we ? The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol "Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it. "Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ? | |||
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"The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol " Firstly the idea that there has been no violence in Catalonia is ridiculous. There have been very close ties between Catalonia and the Basque Region going back hundreds of years and no doubt these include ties to ETA. Catalonia is a tinderbox and Catalonian politicians have been fanning the flames of discontent for their own personal political gain. Add to this Spain's right wing nationalist history, the right wing nationalist outlook of the present government and how the country was run up to the death of Franco, I can see a second Spanish Civil War erupting in the near future. I would further predict that it will be just as violent as the one in the 30's. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ? "The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. "So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ? Very dark place to go. Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ? | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ? "I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to an illegal demo that the police were going to disperse. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ?
I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to an illegal demo that the police were going to disperse."illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ? | |||
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"Flying out Thursday for some touring about. Will report back as the Fab “Our Man in” Will leave my Gibraltar football shirt and Catalan flag at home. It’s all going to work out IMO. I suspect more autonomy. " More autonomy ? Is that like the Vow Scotland was offered ? lol Somehow i dont not believe 2 million + are going to fall for extra powers seeing what happened with Scotland and the Smith commission lol | |||
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"So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ? Very dark place to go. Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ? " It is not about whose side CLCC is on it is about recognising legal legitimacy, and just like the British state had the legitimate right to deploy troops to NI and have those troops shoot any insurrectionists the Spanish state has the right to use any amount of violence it deems necessary to secure its territory without breaking international law until The General Assembly of UN ratify any UN Security Council Resolution that says its actions are illegal and must stop. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ? "https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence | |||
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"illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ? " In this country (UK) the 1986 Public Order requires the organisers of any public demonstration to inform the Police in writing a minimum of 6 days before the protest giving full details and get the Chief Constables permission to protest otherwise it is an illegal protest and the police can use whatever means they feel necessary to break it up (including beating to death anyone caught in their 'kettle'). | |||
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"Not sure if true but they have been offered a contract to build 8 type 26 frigates "Lol! You're a bad man! | |||
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"illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ? In this country (UK) the 1986 Public Order requires the organisers of any public demonstration to inform the Police in writing a minimum of 6 days before the protest giving full details and get the Chief Constables permission to protest otherwise it is an illegal protest and the police can use whatever means they feel necessary to break it up (including beating to death anyone caught in their 'kettle')." You don't have to be a protester to be killed either , just walking home from work | |||
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"Sounds like one side ie ( the Spanish police) are going to cause bloodshed The Catalan people have been protesting peacefully and all rallies/ marches What next going to arrest 450,000 people somehow i dont think so lol If it is Thursday Catalonia use UDI Spain no longer get Catalan tax payers money thats why they fear Catalonia and we all know it. " No! How can you think or say that? If I incite people to assemble knowing that assembling will lead to them being attacked and bloodshed I am responsible for that bloodshed because I am the instigator. It really is that simple regardless of the cause or my justifications. | |||
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"Sounds like one side ie ( the Spanish police) are going to cause bloodshed The Catalan people have been protesting peacefully and all rallies/ marches What next going to arrest 450,000 people somehow i dont think so lol If it is Thursday Catalonia use UDI Spain no longer get Catalan tax payers money thats why they fear Catalonia and we all know it. No! How can you think or say that? If I incite people to assemble knowing that assembling will lead to them being attacked and bloodshed I am responsible for that bloodshed because I am the instigator. It really is that simple regardless of the cause or my justifications." So 450,000 people are being ordered by who? to go out on the streets and protest they are doing it by themselves. Tell me this on the 1st October who started throwing punches and using brutal force was it the Spanish police or Catalan people ? Last time i checked you can walk out in public streets have the right not to be brutally beat. If it happens on Thursday and UDI is used and the Spainish police move in and start beating the hell out of people that are showing no threat then yes it will be the Spanish police that will cause bloodshed | |||
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"So 450,000 people are being ordered by who? to go out on the streets and protest they are doing it by themselves. Tell me this on the 1st October who started throwing punches and using brutal force was it the Spanish police or Catalan people ? Last time i checked you can walk out in public streets have the right not to be brutally beat. If it happens on Thursday and UDI is used and the Spainish police move in and start beating the hell out of people that are showing no threat then yes it will be the Spanish police that will cause bloodshed " Firstly you should look up 'Incitement to Disaffection', until relatively recently that crime carried the death penalty in the UK. Then you may like to spend a few minutes listening to DJT on the campaign trail and ask yourself if Trump is responsible for those now threatening to kill anyone that attempts to prosecute any Trump or any of his team. The idea that politicians can whip up sectarianism and not be held responsible for the consequences is ludicrous. | |||
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" Tell me this on the 1st October who started throwing punches and using brutal force was it the Spanish police or Catalan people ? Last time i checked you can walk out in public streets have the right not to be brutally beat. If it happens on Thursday and UDI is used and the Spainish police move in and start beating the hell out of people that are showing no threat then yes it will be the Spanish police that will cause bloodshed " Yes the police struck first because they were quite rightly dispersing an illegal protest. You can walk the streets quite safely if you aren't a separatist at a March. And yes if the Catalan minority are stupid enough to UDI on Thursday then sadly they are going to get battered. Which will just lead on to further violence  | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too " Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland are not sovereign nations and therefore have no powers to recognise any country. I think you really need to do a little reading and gain some understanding about sovereignty. | |||
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" Tell me this on the 1st October who started throwing punches and using brutal force was it the Spanish police or Catalan people ? Last time i checked you can walk out in public streets have the right not to be brutally beat. If it happens on Thursday and UDI is used and the Spainish police move in and start beating the hell out of people that are showing no threat then yes it will be the Spanish police that will cause bloodshed Yes the police struck first because they were quite rightly dispersing an illegal protest. You can walk the streets quite safely if you aren't a separatist at a March. And yes if the Catalan minority are stupid enough to UDI on Thursday then sadly they are going to get battered. Which will just lead on to further violence "So in all the Spanish police will be the ones causing bloodshed i thought people didnt want that to happen? People are allowed to walk public streets without being threated to be beaten up last i checked its not a crime to go on public streets | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too " Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies." Yeah, and you think it would be good for NI to jump in the middle of this???  | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland are not sovereign nations and therefore have no powers to recognise any country. I think you really need to do a little reading and gain some understanding about sovereignty. " Oh am sorry Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland have to be told by England what to say and do now lol Strange when Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland dont vote Tory yet must bow down to them rule britannia eh lol | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies." Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol | |||
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" So in all the Spanish police will be the ones causing bloodshed i thought people didnt want that to happen? People are allowed to walk public streets without being threated to be beaten up last i checked its not a crime to go on public streets " If the minority of Catalans that are causing the trouble stop giving the police cause, nothing will happen. No violence. Peace and prosperity will resume. The tourist will keep going. And it is a crime to walk the public streets if you are around a separatist march. | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol " You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. | |||
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" So in all the Spanish police will be the ones causing bloodshed i thought people didnt want that to happen? People are allowed to walk public streets without being threated to be beaten up last i checked its not a crime to go on public streets If the minority of Catalans that are causing the trouble stop giving the police cause, nothing will happen. No violence. Peace and prosperity will resume. The tourist will keep going. And it is a crime to walk the public streets if you are around a separatist march." Hold on a minute you said the Spanish police struck first remember that ? Who is causing the trouble ? Are you really saying Catalan people standing with their hands up showing no threat in public streets are causing trouble ? Really so now its a crime ? Right so if i and friends were to go on onto George Sq in Glasgow with a YES Scottish flag right now you would class that as a crime ? | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. " Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol " Ha. You are really bad at playing word games. You no damn well I said Holyrood has no National power. | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol Ha. You are really bad at playing word games. You no damn well I said Holyrood has no National power. " So what you saying England speaks for Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland now ? | |||
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"Genuine question: How is a sovereign nation within the EU using force to restore the rule of law inside their own borders a breach of the Lisbon Treaty? Please note I am making no judgements on the rights and wrongs or morality of the situation, just asking a genuine question. My own thoughts is that unless the Catalan politicians and Regional Assembly find a way to back down and defuse the situation very quickly they will be responsible for plunging Catalonia into many years of violence and maybe an open civil war that they cannot hope to win. " True and the beginning of the end of the EU but wont be our problem | |||
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" So in all the Spanish police will be the ones causing bloodshed i thought people didnt want that to happen? People are allowed to walk public streets without being threated to be beaten up last i checked its not a crime to go on public streets If the minority of Catalans that are causing the trouble stop giving the police cause, nothing will happen. No violence. Peace and prosperity will resume. The tourist will keep going. And it is a crime to walk the public streets if you are around a separatist march. Hold on a minute you said the Spanish police struck first remember that ? Who is causing the trouble ? Are you really saying Catalan people standing with their hands up showing no threat in public streets are causing trouble ? Really so now its a crime ? Right so if i and friends were to go on onto George Sq in Glasgow with a YES Scottish flag right now you would class that as a crime ? " For about the 10th time. The police were disbursing an illegal March. If a copper tells you to leave, you leave! If you are daft enough to ignore said copper, he will make you! As for going out in Glasgow, you will be fine unless you start haranguing passers by in which case, guess what, a copper will move you on! | |||
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" So in all the Spanish police will be the ones causing bloodshed i thought people didnt want that to happen? People are allowed to walk public streets without being threated to be beaten up last i checked its not a crime to go on public streets If the minority of Catalans that are causing the trouble stop giving the police cause, nothing will happen. No violence. Peace and prosperity will resume. The tourist will keep going. And it is a crime to walk the public streets if you are around a separatist march. Hold on a minute you said the Spanish police struck first remember that ? Who is causing the trouble ? Are you really saying Catalan people standing with their hands up showing no threat in public streets are causing trouble ? Really so now its a crime ? Right so if i and friends were to go on onto George Sq in Glasgow with a YES Scottish flag right now you would class that as a crime ? For about the 10th time. The police were disbursing an illegal March. If a copper tells you to leave, you leave! If you are daft enough to ignore said copper, he will make you! As for going out in Glasgow, you will be fine unless you start haranguing passers by in which case, guess what, a copper will move you on!" The Catalan police were not telling anyone to leave though they were standing infront of innocent people protecting them from being beaten. Says alot Not actaully true if the police ask you to leave you dont need to they have to have probable cause or in the middle of a crime. The police can only ask you to leave again ASK. Now how do you know someone that is not protesting and just walking by and gets caught up on it is he or she to blame ? | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol Ha. You are really bad at playing word games. You no damn well I said Holyrood has no National power. So what you saying England speaks for Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland now ? " Ok your going off topic here but the answer is no England has no national power either. The United Kingdom of Great Britain has a National Parliament at Westminster which represents everyone in the UK. You got any more daft questions or word games you fancy trying? | |||
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" So in all the Spanish police will be the ones causing bloodshed i thought people didnt want that to happen? People are allowed to walk public streets without being threated to be beaten up last i checked its not a crime to go on public streets If the minority of Catalans that are causing the trouble stop giving the police cause, nothing will happen. No violence. Peace and prosperity will resume. The tourist will keep going. And it is a crime to walk the public streets if you are around a separatist march. Hold on a minute you said the Spanish police struck first remember that ? Who is causing the trouble ? Are you really saying Catalan people standing with their hands up showing no threat in public streets are causing trouble ? Really so now its a crime ? Right so if i and friends were to go on onto George Sq in Glasgow with a YES Scottish flag right now you would class that as a crime ? For about the 10th time. The police were disbursing an illegal March. If a copper tells you to leave, you leave! If you are daft enough to ignore said copper, he will make you! As for going out in Glasgow, you will be fine unless you start haranguing passers by in which case, guess what, a copper will move you on! The Catalan police were not telling anyone to leave though they were standing infront of innocent people protecting them from being beaten. Says alot Not actaully true if the police ask you to leave you dont need to they have to have probable cause or in the middle of a crime. The police can only ask you to leave again ASK. Now how do you know someone that is not protesting and just walking by and gets caught up on it is he or she to blame ? " Actual innocent bystanders trying to escape riots/marches getting hurt is as old as organised society sadly. But separatists voluntarily attending illegal marches by definition aren't innocent people and are destined to get into trouble with the National Police. | |||
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"Genuine question: How is a sovereign nation within the EU using force to restore the rule of law inside their own borders a breach of the Lisbon Treaty? Please note I am making no judgements on the rights and wrongs or morality of the situation, just asking a genuine question. My own thoughts is that unless the Catalan politicians and Regional Assembly find a way to back down and defuse the situation very quickly they will be responsible for plunging Catalonia into many years of violence and maybe an open civil war that they cannot hope to win. " I totally agree with you on this. | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol Ha. You are really bad at playing word games. You no damn well I said Holyrood has no National power. So what you saying England speaks for Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland now ? Ok your going off topic here but the answer is no England has no national power either. The United Kingdom of Great Britain has a National Parliament at Westminster which represents everyone in the UK. You got any more daft questions or word games you fancy trying? " Really ? So when did Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland vote Tory ? You do know all of Scotland's and Wales and N.Ireland mp's could vote against something and all it takes for England's mps to vote for and hey presto England get what they want. | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol Ha. You are really bad at playing word games. You no damn well I said Holyrood has no National power. So what you saying England speaks for Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland now ? Ok your going off topic here but the answer is no England has no national power either. The United Kingdom of Great Britain has a National Parliament at Westminster which represents everyone in the UK. You got any more daft questions or word games you fancy trying? Really ? So when did Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland vote Tory ? You do know all of Scotland's and Wales and N.Ireland mp's could vote against something and all it takes for England's mps to vote for and hey presto England get what they want. " Again. With the stupid word games. You know damn well how the party system works and how the parliamentary elections work. All of the English mps would never be in a situation where they vote on a regional basis so your whole presumption is nonsense. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence? "Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ? | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ? "The fact that the Spanish Police and the Spanish Government have not handled the situation well does not change the basic facts. The Catalonian Authorities are acting outside the law. There is no proven mandate for independence. Governments, whether locally autonomous or national, in a democratic country, have a duty to both uphold the law and work within it. You can't just draw a line on a map, ask some of the people on one side of the line if they want to be independent from those on the other and then claim it's democratic. Democracy can only work properly within the rule of law. The Catalan authorities are not. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ? "Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ? "Catalonia hasn't either 
It's funny, last time you refused to even admit the existence of the Shetland independence movement. If you refuse to accept the movement, you are unlikely to accept their independence. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again. "Ah right so have to ask permission to hold a referendum. Right question do you think the Scottish government have mandate to hold a new independence referendum ? Or you saying it doesnt matter the way Scotland people vote | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Catalonia hasn't either
It's funny, last time you refused to even admit the existence of the Shetland independence movement. If you refuse to accept the movement, you are unlikely to accept their independence. "Has Shetland come out and said they want independence ? Mute point really | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ?
The fact that the Spanish Police and the Spanish Government have not handled the situation well does not change the basic facts. The Catalonian Authorities are acting outside the law. There is no proven mandate for independence. Governments, whether locally autonomous or national, in a democratic country, have a duty to both uphold the law and work within it. You can't just draw a line on a map, ask some of the people on one side of the line if they want to be independent from those on the other and then claim it's democratic. Democracy can only work properly within the rule of law. The Catalan authorities are not."I completely agree, they have to respect the rule of law. As the OP states, that is in Article 2 of the Lisbon Treaty. The Catalans are trying to act outside the law. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Catalonia hasn't either
It's funny, last time you refused to even admit the existence of the Shetland independence movement. If you refuse to accept the movement, you are unlikely to accept their independence.
Has Shetland come out and said they want independence ? Mute point really
"Catalan hasn't declared independence either, so it's a mute point too? Do you want me to ask a mod to shut it down then? I find it strange how you are so supportive and willing to talk about other independence movements, yet never want to discuss Shetland independence. Why is that?  | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again.
Ah right so have to ask permission to hold a referendum.
Right question do you think the Scottish government have mandate to hold a new independence referendum ? Or you saying it doesnt matter the way Scotland people vote"There was a mandate for a referendum which was carried out. The result was acted upon. If there is to be another referendum it will have to be asked for from Westminster again. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again.
Ah right so have to ask permission to hold a referendum.
Right question do you think the Scottish government have mandate to hold a new independence referendum ? Or you saying it doesnt matter the way Scotland people vote
There was a mandate for a referendum which was carried out. The result was acted upon.
If there is to be another referendum it will have to be asked for from Westminster again. "Yup, that's the way our system works. Parliament is supreme. Well, the proper one in Westminster at least | |||
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" So in all the Spanish police will be the ones causing bloodshed i thought people didnt want that to happen? People are allowed to walk public streets without being threated to be beaten up last i checked its not a crime to go on public streets If the minority of Catalans that are causing the trouble stop giving the police cause, nothing will happen. No violence. Peace and prosperity will resume. The tourist will keep going. And it is a crime to walk the public streets if you are around a separatist march. Hold on a minute you said the Spanish police struck first remember that ? Who is causing the trouble ? Are you really saying Catalan people standing with their hands up showing no threat in public streets are causing trouble ? Really so now its a crime ? Right so if i and friends were to go on onto George Sq in Glasgow with a YES Scottish flag right now you would class that as a crime ? " If you were supporting an illegal act of rebellion against the state then it would be illegal. The correct and legal way to achieve independence is by working through the law, making changes where necessary, and then putting the proposed new settlement to the people. This is what the SNP has done in Scotland and when, or if, Scotland ever does choose to become an independent country, because they have done it legally and within the law, there will be no question of the British State sending in the police or army to stop it. It takes a lot longer and, if there isn't really a strong enough appetite for it, it might never happen but it avoids the possibility of war. Why couldn't the Catalonian authorities have done the same thing? Why are they working outside the law in a democratic country? How can you possibly support people trying to illegally overthrow a democratic country? Democracy relies on far more than a badly run, illegal referendum. | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol Ha. You are really bad at playing word games. You no damn well I said Holyrood has no National power. So what you saying England speaks for Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland now ? " No; Scotland speaks for Scotland, Wales speaks for Wales, N.Ireland speaks for N.Ireland, England speaks for England and the UK speaks for Britain. | |||
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"I can see alot of people may be pissed off on Thursday if UDI is used and Catalonia is set free from opression from dictators Then prob see alot of people saying quite right for the Spanish police to beat the hell out of people causing bloodshed abit of double standards though saying you dont want bloodshed yet are at the same time prob say its right for the Spanish police to beat people up i wonder if you will be the same if it actually causes someone to die. I dont any war or bloodshed the Spanish government have to accept the people of Catalonia do not want to be apart of Spain. Spain is not Catalonia !!! Allow to go their own seprate ways peaceful i know Spain wont because they know they will lose the Catalan tax payers money and shitting themselves over their economy " The majority of Catalans don't want independence as shown by the tiny turn out at there iffy referendum they set up. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again.
Ah right so have to ask permission to hold a referendum.
Right question do you think the Scottish government have mandate to hold a new independence referendum ? Or you saying it doesnt matter the way Scotland people vote
There was a mandate for a referendum which was carried out. The result was acted upon.
If there is to be another referendum it will have to be asked for from Westminster again.
Yup, that's the way our system works. Parliament is supreme. Well, the proper one in Westminster at least "Oh that sounds like your saying England rule all it really comes close to it So when you mean Westminster is the prober parliament what are you trying to say here that the Scottish parilament is a joke and not to be taken serious ? How come ? I thought the UK is an equal partnership and family of nations ? When did Scotland for Tory ? | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol Ha. You are really bad at playing word games. You no damn well I said Holyrood has no National power. So what you saying England speaks for Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland now ? No; Scotland speaks for Scotland, Wales speaks for Wales, N.Ireland speaks for N.Ireland, England speaks for England and the UK speaks for Britain." Another one i see So the UK government speaks for 4 countries ? Strange only England voted Tory correct ? | |||
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"I can see alot of people may be pissed off on Thursday if UDI is used and Catalonia is set free from opression from dictators Then prob see alot of people saying quite right for the Spanish police to beat the hell out of people causing bloodshed abit of double standards though saying you dont want bloodshed yet are at the same time prob say its right for the Spanish police to beat people up i wonder if you will be the same if it actually causes someone to die. I dont any war or bloodshed the Spanish government have to accept the people of Catalonia do not want to be apart of Spain. Spain is not Catalonia !!! Allow to go their own seprate ways peaceful i know Spain wont because they know they will lose the Catalan tax payers money and shitting themselves over their economy The majority of Catalans don't want independence as shown by the tiny turn out at there iffy referendum they set up." Why are Spain shite feart to allow a binding referendum then if they are so confindent that the majority of Catalan people will reject independence ? Just remember 2million votes yes and 1,000 injured and 700,000 ballots stole how many wanted to vote and too afraid to step out their door incase of being beaten up even killed by Spanish police ? | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again.
Ah right so have to ask permission to hold a referendum.
Right question do you think the Scottish government have mandate to hold a new independence referendum ? Or you saying it doesnt matter the way Scotland people vote
There was a mandate for a referendum which was carried out. The result was acted upon.
If there is to be another referendum it will have to be asked for from Westminster again.
Yup, that's the way our system works. Parliament is supreme. Well, the proper one in Westminster at least
Oh that sounds like your saying England rule all it really comes close to it
So when you mean Westminster is the prober parliament what are you trying to say here that the Scottish parilament is a joke and not to be taken serious ? How come ? I thought the UK is an equal partnership and family of nations ?
When did Scotland for Tory ? "More silly word games. The Westminster Parliament isn't English. It is made up of MPs from all over Britain. And Scottish voters voted for the candidates in the Scottish constituencies. Which represent you at Westminster. You know all this and are still just asking ridiculous questions. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again.
Ah right so have to ask permission to hold a referendum.
Right question do you think the Scottish government have mandate to hold a new independence referendum ? Or you saying it doesnt matter the way Scotland people vote"The Scottish government has a mandate, as they put it in their manifesto, to call for a referendum and the British government has the legal right to say "Ok, but not right now". That's what has actually happened. If Scotland still wants another referendum it will get one but, for it to be legal, it has to be with the agreement of the British government, which it will eventually get. It's called living under the rule of law. | |||
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"I can see alot of people may be pissed off on Thursday if UDI is used and Catalonia is set free from opression from dictators Then prob see alot of people saying quite right for the Spanish police to beat the hell out of people causing bloodshed abit of double standards though saying you dont want bloodshed yet are at the same time prob say its right for the Spanish police to beat people up i wonder if you will be the same if it actually causes someone to die. I dont any war or bloodshed the Spanish government have to accept the people of Catalonia do not want to be apart of Spain. Spain is not Catalonia !!! Allow to go their own seprate ways peaceful i know Spain wont because they know they will lose the Catalan tax payers money and shitting themselves over their economy The majority of Catalans don't want independence as shown by the tiny turn out at there iffy referendum they set up. Why are Spain shite feart to allow a binding referendum then if they are so confindent that the majority of Catalan people will reject independence ? Just remember 2million votes yes and 1,000 injured and 700,000 ballots stole how many wanted to vote and too afraid to step out their door incase of being beaten up even killed by Spanish police ? " The population of Catalan is 7.5 million. 2 million is a minority. | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again.
Ah right so have to ask permission to hold a referendum.
Right question do you think the Scottish government have mandate to hold a new independence referendum ? Or you saying it doesnt matter the way Scotland people vote
The Scottish government has a mandate, as they put it in their manifesto, to call for a referendum and the British government has the legal right to say "Ok, but not right now". That's what has actually happened. If Scotland still wants another referendum it will get one but, for it to be legal, it has to be with the agreement of the British government, which it will eventually get. It's called living under the rule of law."Right good that you see the Scottish government have a mandate for another Scottish independence referendum when the brexit deal is known. So question to you if the Tories said no and blocked it would that be an undemocratic move to make considering the Scottish government have a mandate from the people? | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob " Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. | |||
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"I can see alot of people may be pissed off on Thursday if UDI is used and Catalonia is set free from opression from dictators Then prob see alot of people saying quite right for the Spanish police to beat the hell out of people causing bloodshed abit of double standards though saying you dont want bloodshed yet are at the same time prob say its right for the Spanish police to beat people up i wonder if you will be the same if it actually causes someone to die. I dont any war or bloodshed the Spanish government have to accept the people of Catalonia do not want to be apart of Spain. Spain is not Catalonia !!! Allow to go their own seprate ways peaceful i know Spain wont because they know they will lose the Catalan tax payers money and shitting themselves over their economy The majority of Catalans don't want independence as shown by the tiny turn out at there iffy referendum they set up. Why are Spain shite feart to allow a binding referendum then if they are so confindent that the majority of Catalan people will reject independence ? Just remember 2million votes yes and 1,000 injured and 700,000 ballots stole how many wanted to vote and too afraid to step out their door incase of being beaten up even killed by Spanish police ? The population of Catalan is 7.5 million. 2 million is a minority. " Yes how many are are voting age ? Not all 7 million can vote correct ? | |||
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"Right so if i and friends were to go on onto George Sq in Glasgow with a YES Scottish flag right now you would class that as a crime ? " YES! I even told you the Act! If you want me to be even more specific The Public Order Act 1986 Sections 11, 12, 13 and 14. Which apply in both English and Scottish Law. Further although the maximum sentence under the above is only 3 months in prison under Sect 1/1 of The Criminal Law 1977 if it can be shown that two or more persons agreed to unlawfully assemble then that would be a criminal conspiracy. All criminal conspiracies carry a maximum sentence of life in prison... This is not my opinion, it is the law of this land, and you are just as subject to it as everyone else. Finally, the reason Holyrood although called a parliament is in a regional assembly is because its limited powers are devolved from Westminster and has no foreign or defence powers and Westminster can at any time return some or all of the powers it has ceded to Holyrood. That by the way is why Parliament in Westminster is Sovereign whereas Holyrood regardless of what it calls itself is not. Again this is not my opinion this is fact. | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol Ha. You are really bad at playing word games. You no damn well I said Holyrood has no National power. So what you saying England speaks for Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland now ? Ok your going off topic here but the answer is no England has no national power either. The United Kingdom of Great Britain has a National Parliament at Westminster which represents everyone in the UK. You got any more daft questions or word games you fancy trying? Really ? So when did Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland vote Tory ? You do know all of Scotland's and Wales and N.Ireland mp's could vote against something and all it takes for England's mps to vote for and hey presto England get what they want. Again. With the stupid word games. You know damn well how the party system works and how the parliamentary elections work. All of the English mps would never be in a situation where they vote on a regional basis so your whole presumption is nonsense." Actually no point trying to argue with this nonsense. How many _inkyhns threads do you need to read to understand how deluded, biased and blinkered their political views are. Best if people stop commenting on their threads and leave them to argue with themselves really... unless you just enjoy baiting them. In which case crack on!  | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. " Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one | |||
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"Not sure if true but they have been offered a contract to build 8 type 26 frigates "Actually laughed out loud!  | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob " Hilarious, Catalan independence is about greed. Rich part of Spain wanting to not have to subsidise other parts of the country. Populist rhetoric using a so called cultural difference to further an economic agenda. It's a bit like if london decided to say the hell with Scotland we are sick of subsidising them. Of course as usual Catalans want there cake and eat it. Well join the cue and wait to join the eu single market, bring in border controls when the want to visit Spain and the Catalan brethren in France. See then how far their taxes go. | |||
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"If only the SNP had taken a leaf out of the Catalan book. Declared a referendum with 2 months notice, got only their supporters to turn out, declare victory with less than 50% electorate approval and independent within 3 weeks. You'd be in your own utopia by now. Eck must be kicking himself he made such an arse of it. " Laughing out loud again!! So you mean eck isn't the political genius we all thought he was? | |||
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"Not sure if true but they have been offered a contract to build 8 type 26 frigates
Actually laughed out loud! "Kinky's threads are the best. I have never known anyone who loves politics so much, yet knows so little about it! | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Hilarious, Catalan independence is about greed. Rich part of Spain wanting to not have to subsidise other parts of the country. Populist rhetoric using a so called cultural difference to further an economic agenda. It's a bit like if london decided to say the hell with Scotland we are sick of subsidising them. Of course as usual Catalans want there cake and eat it. Well join the cue and wait to join the eu single market, bring in border controls when the want to visit Spain and the Catalan brethren in France. See then how far their taxes go. " Exactly, why should Cardiff finance the valleys? Or Edinburgh finance the highlands and islands. Should LA bankroll Alaska, or New York fund Nebraska? | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one " ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. " Kinky doesn't care what you or I or anyone else writes, they just read what they want. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ?
I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to an illegal demo that the police were going to disperse.
illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ?
"Peaceful protest? It was an illegal vote against the constitution, this of course has already been explained to you already but don't let your agenda get on the way of facts.... | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. " Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? | |||
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| Reply privately |
"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. Kinky doesn't care what you or I or anyone else writes, they just read what they want." They ? Who is they ? | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? " That's how our system works, so not, it's not undemocratic. | |||
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| Reply privately |
"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ?
I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to an illegal demo that the police were going to disperse.
illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ?
Peaceful protest? It was an illegal vote against the constitution, this of course has already been explained to you already but don't let your agenda get on the way of facts...."Did you see any Catalan people throw a punch first ? Who caused the bloodshed ? | |||
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| Reply privately |
"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? That's how our system works, so not, it's not undemocratic. " Thats how the system works Right so if the UK government block a mandate from the Scottish people you call that democracy ? Funny way of showing it | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? " Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. | |||
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| Reply privately |
"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ?
I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to an illegal demo that the police were going to disperse.
illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ?
Peaceful protest? It was an illegal vote against the constitution, this of course has already been explained to you already but don't let your agenda get on the way of facts....
Did you see any Catalan people throw a punch first ? Who caused the bloodshed ?
"As previously stated, the police started it with good cause because the separatists were there when they shouldn't have been. | |||
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| Reply privately |
"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? That's how our system works, so not, it's not undemocratic. Thats how the system works Right so if the UK government block a mandate from the Scottish people you call that democracy ? Funny way of showing it " That's how the system works. | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons." Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? | |||
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| Reply privately |
"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ?
I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to an illegal demo that the police were going to disperse.
illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ?
Peaceful protest? It was an illegal vote against the constitution, this of course has already been explained to you already but don't let your agenda get on the way of facts....
Did you see any Catalan people throw a punch first ? Who caused the bloodshed ?
"It was an illegal attack on the Spanish state. What do you expect to police to do? Open the door and say yeah carry on trying to have an illegal vote about cessation and weaken a country. Again you will of course only see what you want to see on TV. It was NOT a peaceful protest and that's why there was inevitable confrontation. Of course then you twist this fact and the person who is in fact attacking the state is the the so called victim. Again your agenda is blinding you | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? That's how our system works, so not, it's not undemocratic. Thats how the system works Right so if the UK government block a mandate from the Scottish people you call that democracy ? Funny way of showing it That's how the system works. " So you would be happy to ignore a mandate from the Scottish people ? Tell me CLCC if it was the other way about and English people gave a mandate to have an English independence referendum and say Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland blocked it would that be acceptable to ignore the English mandate for a referendum ? Hell you dont even know it and your proving this is not an equal partnership more like UK dictatorship | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? " No, they dont. You have had this explained to you again and again and again. Only Westminster can grant that. It's not a power devolved from parliament. If you don't believe me, then why haven't the SNP just gone and done it? | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? " The Scottish government? No. The SNP could ask for one. | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? That's how our system works, so not, it's not undemocratic. Thats how the system works Right so if the UK government block a mandate from the Scottish people you call that democracy ? Funny way of showing it That's how the system works. So you would be happy to ignore a mandate from the Scottish people ? Tell me CLCC if it was the other way about and English people gave a mandate to have an English independence referendum and say Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland blocked it would that be acceptable to ignore the English mandate for a referendum ? Hell you dont even know it and your proving this is not an equal partnership more like UK dictatorship " You are obsessed with regional based votes! I've told you, they don't happen in Britain. England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland have no say at all in approving Referendum requests. | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? No, they dont. You have had this explained to you again and again and again. Only Westminster can grant that. It's not a power devolved from parliament. If you don't believe me, then why haven't the SNP just gone and done it? " Oh my oh my CLCC So let me fill you in SNP 2016 manifesto - Scotland’s choice At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future. Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be. Last year’s Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum. The recent vote of Scotland’s national Parliament has underlined that mandate. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists. And, in such circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future - when the time is right and the options are clear - would be democratically unsustainable The Scottish people elected the SNP into Holyrood where there is a pro indy majority btw So the Scottish voters gave the Scottish government a mandate and here you are saying you dont respect that mandate wow | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? That's how our system works, so not, it's not undemocratic. Thats how the system works Right so if the UK government block a mandate from the Scottish people you call that democracy ? Funny way of showing it That's how the system works. So you would be happy to ignore a mandate from the Scottish people ? Tell me CLCC if it was the other way about and English people gave a mandate to have an English independence referendum and say Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland blocked it would that be acceptable to ignore the English mandate for a referendum ? Hell you dont even know it and your proving this is not an equal partnership more like UK dictatorship " I don't know who told you its an equal partnership, it's not. Wales Scotland and NI (although currently anomalous) have regional assemblies and MPs. England doesn't. Things that only effect England get voted on by MPs from non-English constituencies. Also the powers devolved to Scotland Wales and NI are not equal, so it's not equal and I don't know why you think it is. The only party that has a mandate to do anything with independence referendums is the biggest party elected to Westminster. | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? No, they dont. You have had this explained to you again and again and again. Only Westminster can grant that. It's not a power devolved from parliament. If you don't believe me, then why haven't the SNP just gone and done it? Oh my oh my CLCC So let me fill you in SNP 2016 manifesto - Scotland’s choice At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future. Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be. Last year’s Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum. The recent vote of Scotland’s national Parliament has underlined that mandate. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists. And, in such circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future - when the time is right and the options are clear - would be democratically unsustainable The Scottish people elected the SNP into Holyrood where there is a pro indy majority btw So the Scottish voters gave the Scottish government a mandate and here you are saying you dont respect that mandate wow " If they have a mandate, why haven't they used it?  | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? The Scottish government? No. The SNP could ask for one. " Wow the SNP IS the Scottish government lmao | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? No, they dont. You have had this explained to you again and again and again. Only Westminster can grant that. It's not a power devolved from parliament. If you don't believe me, then why haven't the SNP just gone and done it? Oh my oh my CLCC So let me fill you in SNP 2016 manifesto - Scotland’s choice At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future. Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be. Last year’s Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum. The recent vote of Scotland’s national Parliament has underlined that mandate. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists. And, in such circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future - when the time is right and the options are clear - would be democratically unsustainable The Scottish people elected the SNP into Holyrood where there is a pro indy majority btw So the Scottish voters gave the Scottish government a mandate and here you are saying you dont respect that mandate wow If they have a mandate, why haven't they used it? "Here it is for you again '' Scotland’s choice At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future'' So CLCC do you think the UK government should block the mandate ? Do you think when the final deal on brexit is known Scotland should have the right to hold a referendum to decide if they agree to brexit or independence ? | |||
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"Right lets down it round ok for those that say thats how the system works So lets just say England wanted to be independent from UK and say England had a mandate to have a referendum and Scotland , Wales and , N.Ireland said no would you be pissed off that the mandate was being blocked by other countries in the UK ? Am just curious because some in here sadly are sounding like the rule britannia no surrender mob Again I'll tell you. Westminster doesn't vote by region but by party. If England wanted an Independence referendum, the other home nations wouldn't get a say just like England, Wales and NI didn't get a say when Scotland asked for a referendum. Ah right so what your saying if England wanted an independence referendum of their own they just get what they want where as the Scottish government has a mandate for another referendum and Scotland has to ask permission to hold one ??? That's not what I said or anything like it. Try reading it again. Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? That's how our system works, so not, it's not undemocratic. Thats how the system works Right so if the UK government block a mandate from the Scottish people you call that democracy ? Funny way of showing it That's how the system works. So you would be happy to ignore a mandate from the Scottish people ? Tell me CLCC if it was the other way about and English people gave a mandate to have an English independence referendum and say Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland blocked it would that be acceptable to ignore the English mandate for a referendum ? Hell you dont even know it and your proving this is not an equal partnership more like UK dictatorship " For all your Scottish cultural nationalism it came down to money why you stayed in U.K. Too scared to take the plunge and go it alone. You had your chance in Scotland for Scottish independence and you Didnt get what you want so you think Catalonia should have the same. But in fact it's like london saying we are cockneys (we are rich and we speak different to non Londoners so it is out seperate culture) we don't want to subsidise northern England or Scotland. Any Catalans that think their politicians are going to bring about a. Atalanta utopia are sadly mistaken and influenced by populist rhetoric. | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? The Scottish government? No. The SNP could ask for one. Wow the SNP IS the Scottish government lmao " The mandate was in the SNP manifesto not an assembly paper. | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to." The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? | |||
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"Ah WillWill69 So you think the the sewel convention is a piece of shite then and make up crap ? Good , good to see someone actaully admit it " The Sewel Convention only has standing while Westminster continues to cede power to holyrood. Further, unless there has been a change in the law I am not aware of the Sewel Convention has not been enacted into law and that can only be done by Westminster. Therefore because the Sewel Convention is not statute Westminster can repeal The Scotland Act 1998 without permission from Holyrood. Just pointing out how UK law stands. If you don't like it form a political party and win a majority of seats in Westminster and you can change any law you like. | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? No, they dont. You have had this explained to you again and again and again. Only Westminster can grant that. It's not a power devolved from parliament. If you don't believe me, then why haven't the SNP just gone and done it? Oh my oh my CLCC So let me fill you in SNP 2016 manifesto - Scotland’s choice At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future. Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be. Last year’s Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum. The recent vote of Scotland’s national Parliament has underlined that mandate. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists. And, in such circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future - when the time is right and the options are clear - would be democratically unsustainable The Scottish people elected the SNP into Holyrood where there is a pro indy majority btw So the Scottish voters gave the Scottish government a mandate and here you are saying you dont respect that mandate wow " It's the mentality of .... "But Scotland has gas fields and when we get rid of those English bastards we will sell gas to them and we will live in a Scottish utopia where we will all be rich" simplistic nationalist populist propaganda | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? " No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. " The conditions have been met thats what am telling you The Scottish people elected SNP on their manifesto peldge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known. Holyrood had a vote on the section 30 order to ask Westminster to hold a legally binding referendum like the last one So its good to see you say the Tories have no basis/ grounds to refuse to allow one good that you agree with me | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. The conditions have been met thats what am telling you The Scottish people elected SNP on their manifesto peldge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known. Holyrood had a vote on the section 30 order to ask Westminster to hold a legally binding referendum like the last one So its good to see you say the Tories have no basis/ grounds to refuse to allow one good that you agree with me " The Brexit deal isn't known yet so the conditions aren't all met. And if it's a deal beneficial to Scotland then the conditions still won't have been met. Only a deal leaving Scotland worse off will fulfill them. | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. The conditions have been met thats what am telling you The Scottish people elected SNP on their manifesto peldge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known. Holyrood had a vote on the section 30 order to ask Westminster to hold a legally binding referendum like the last one So its good to see you say the Tories have no basis/ grounds to refuse to allow one good that you agree with me The Brexit deal isn't known yet so the conditions aren't all met. And if it's a deal beneficial to Scotland then the conditions still won't have been met. Only a deal leaving Scotland worse off will fulfill them." Yes i know once the brexit deal is known and before the UK leaves Scotland has the right to hold a referendum to allow the Scottish voters to decide if they agree to the brexit deal or not correct ? | |||
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"Off to bed. " Cool , cool was good chatting and debating with you Have some good wet dreams lol | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. The conditions have been met thats what am telling you The Scottish people elected SNP on their manifesto peldge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known. Holyrood had a vote on the section 30 order to ask Westminster to hold a legally binding referendum like the last one So its good to see you say the Tories have no basis/ grounds to refuse to allow one good that you agree with me The Brexit deal isn't known yet so the conditions aren't all met. And if it's a deal beneficial to Scotland then the conditions still won't have been met. Only a deal leaving Scotland worse off will fulfill them. Yes i know once the brexit deal is known and before the UK leaves Scotland has the right to hold a referendum to allow the Scottish voters to decide if they agree to the brexit deal or not correct ? " Nope, only Westminster can grant that. How are you so ignorant of the process? It must have been pointed out to you 20 times on this thread alone.  | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. The conditions have been met thats what am telling you The Scottish people elected SNP on their manifesto peldge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known. Holyrood had a vote on the section 30 order to ask Westminster to hold a legally binding referendum like the last one So its good to see you say the Tories have no basis/ grounds to refuse to allow one good that you agree with me The Brexit deal isn't known yet so the conditions aren't all met. And if it's a deal beneficial to Scotland then the conditions still won't have been met. Only a deal leaving Scotland worse off will fulfill them. Yes i know once the brexit deal is known and before the UK leaves Scotland has the right to hold a referendum to allow the Scottish voters to decide if they agree to the brexit deal or not correct ? Nope, only Westminster can grant that. How are you so ignorant of the process? It must have been pointed out to you 20 times on this thread alone. "Ok so question CLCC should Westminster block the mandate to hold a Scottish independence referendum when the final brexit deal is known yes or no ? Now i have put you on the spot | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. The conditions have been met thats what am telling you The Scottish people elected SNP on their manifesto peldge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known. Holyrood had a vote on the section 30 order to ask Westminster to hold a legally binding referendum like the last one So its good to see you say the Tories have no basis/ grounds to refuse to allow one good that you agree with me The Brexit deal isn't known yet so the conditions aren't all met. And if it's a deal beneficial to Scotland then the conditions still won't have been met. Only a deal leaving Scotland worse off will fulfill them. Yes i know once the brexit deal is known and before the UK leaves Scotland has the right to hold a referendum to allow the Scottish voters to decide if they agree to the brexit deal or not correct ? Nope, only Westminster can grant that. How are you so ignorant of the process? It must have been pointed out to you 20 times on this thread alone.
Ok so question CLCC should Westminster block the mandate to hold a Scottish independence referendum when the final brexit deal is known yes or no ? Now i have put you on the spot"I have no idea what they will do, or if there will even be a vote in the commons, however that is the only place in our system that that decision can be taken. But let's say they do vote to allow Scotland to have another referendum, and again Scotland votes to stay as part of the UK, will you want another referendum? Out of interest, what the fuck has this got to do with Catalonia? | |||
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"should Westminster block the mandate to hold a Scottish independence referendum when the final brexit deal is known yes or no ? " So by this single question you accept that sovereignty lies with Westminster. And that any attempt to hold a referendum requires the accent of Westminster. Therefore you also have to accept any attempt to hold a referendum without Westminster's approval would be an act of sedition and potentially revolution thus giving legitimate grounds for Westminster to order the police (and troops if required) to use whatever force necessary to disrupt and halt an illegal plebiscite. You must also understand that in Spain Sovereignty lies with the Spanish National Parliament in Madrid and any action by a Regional Assembly to hold a referendum that has been directly forbidden by Madrid is equally illegal and the Spanish Government are within their rights to use as much force as required to stop it or any subsequent attempt to make a UDI. | |||
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"should Westminster block the mandate to hold a Scottish independence referendum when the final brexit deal is known yes or no ? So by this single question you accept that sovereignty lies with Westminster. And that any attempt to hold a referendum requires the accent of Westminster. Therefore you also have to accept any attempt to hold a referendum without Westminster's approval would be an act of sedition and potentially revolution thus giving legitimate grounds for Westminster to order the police (and troops if required) to use whatever force necessary to disrupt and halt an illegal plebiscite. You must also understand that in Spain Sovereignty lies with the Spanish National Parliament in Madrid and any action by a Regional Assembly to hold a referendum that has been directly forbidden by Madrid is equally illegal and the Spanish Government are within their rights to use as much force as required to stop it or any subsequent attempt to make a UDI. " should Westminster block the mandate to hold a Scottish independence referendum when the final brexit deal is known yes or no ? Also what would you like the Catalan government to do ? Remember now the Catalan people voted to elect the party on a promise to hold a referendum thats a mandate from the Catalan people. Starting to sound like people are shite feart of letting people decide their own future what is so wronf with that ? Oh right fear that is could bring to an end of the UK Why is it you think Spain dont want to hold a binding referendum ? If they majority dont Catalan independence time to put their money where their mouth is and prove it oh wait fear of losing Catalan tax payers money and the Spanish economy crashing wont look good for Spain. Well ALL know Catalonia is rich | |||
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"should Westminster block the mandate to hold a Scottish independence referendum when the final brexit deal is known yes or no ? Also what would you like the Catalan government to do ? Remember now the Catalan people voted to elect the party on a promise to hold a referendum thats a mandate from the Catalan people. Starting to sound like people are shite feart of letting people decide their own future what is so wronf with that ? Oh right fear that is could bring to an end of the UK Why is it you think Spain dont want to hold a binding referendum ? If they majority dont Catalan independence time to put their money where their mouth is and prove it oh wait fear of losing Catalan tax payers money and the Spanish economy crashing wont look good for Spain. Well ALL know Catalonia is rich" Personally, I do not think Westminster should block a second Scottish independence referendum, but I do think Scotland would be downright insane to leave the UK after the UK has left the EU because its bankruptcy would come even faster that way. But I accept that if given the choice there will probably be enough north of the border looking to wrap themselves in the Saltire to carry the day. Much as there were and are enough willing to wrap themselves in the Union Flag to destroy our country for a feeling. As for the Catalonian government I would hope that they would see reason and stay withing the law and explain the truth to their political base. But I fear like Nige, BoJo and the rest of the Britain first brexit brigade and Salmond and his Flower of Scotland shower they will wrap themselves in the Flag of Catalonia and bravely lie and rabble rouse until the damage is done before doing a very sharp exit when their respective followers wake up to the fact that they have been led to disaster and are dying for a feeling! | |||
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"WillWill69u So if it true that Scotland will be £30 billion worse of staying in the UK brexit Would you still think its insane for Scotland to leave the UK? " I think you miss the point, not sure if it is deliberate (like many brexiteers) or not, but the fact is you will NOT get an opportunity to secede from the UK before the UK has left the EU. Therefore either way you will be out of the EU and even if the EU grant you an opportunity to accelerate your EU membership application it is highly unlikely to succeed in time to save you from bankruptcy. Here are the simple facts that will destroy an independent Scotland. Scotland has slightly less than 10% of the UK population and contributes slightly more than 10% the UK's GDP. Which sounds good for Scotland. However Scotland has approximately 50% of the UK's landmass and over 50% territorial waters. An independent Scotland would need to be able to defend and patrol it's territory. The defence budget (that does not include fisheries protection, which although manned by the RN are funded by DEFRA) is 2% of national GDP, therefore as Scotland Is 50% of UK it is reasonable to assume it would need to spend 50% of the MOD budget to maintain the same level of protection it has now that is 1% of UK GDP and 10% of an independent Scotland's GDP. Of course Scotland would need to maintain a large MAT unit to protect the oilfields and its own fisheries protection force as well as running a full civil and diplomatic service. Then there is a coastguard service and an excise service to patrol your coastline and ensure that the duties from whisky manufacture do not disappear in smugglers boats. Before an independent Scotland gets around to thinking about anything else I would estimate that somewhere round 20 to 25 of your total GDP would be gone. Then with what is left you need to feed the population (considering how much landmass you have you don't have 10% of the arable land of the UK, I would say more like 5% so as the UK needs to import 40% of its food needs Scotland would find itself importing nearer 80% of its food needs (think how much of your GDP that would take!) and I have not even mentioned health, education, policing, infrastructure and social care. Now I know that the idea raising of the Saltaire, and singing Flower of Scotland to the drone of the bagpipes as Scotland comes into its own is very alluring to those who can't forget Bannockburn, Culloden and the Jacobite Rebellion. But believe me the reality of an independent Scotland outside the EU is even more frightening than what we all face as a united UK (which is not that hot in my opinion). | |||
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"Ps read back at what you are saying WillWill69u You are saying you dont think Westminster should block a Scottish independence referendum as the Scottish government have mandate for it " You still don't get it! I think the SNP like bojo and the Catalan politicians are lying! I think they should all tell the truth! And I can't imagine anyone would be so stupid as to vote for instability, impoverishment and possible starvation! | |||
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"OP, how would you feel if the Shetlands made a unilateral declaration of independence?
Have they declared they want to leave Scotland ? News to me
Even if they did then that is their choice we live a democracy dont we ?
Simple they apply to Westminster for a regional referendum. If the answer is yes they hold the referendum and act on the result. If the answer Westminsters answer is no then they continue lobbying to get more support until the ask again.
Ah right so have to ask permission to hold a referendum.
Right question do you think the Scottish government have mandate to hold a new independence referendum ? Or you saying it doesnt matter the way Scotland people vote
The Scottish government has a mandate, as they put it in their manifesto, to call for a referendum and the British government has the legal right to say "Ok, but not right now". That's what has actually happened. If Scotland still wants another referendum it will get one but, for it to be legal, it has to be with the agreement of the British government, which it will eventually get. It's called living under the rule of law.
Right good that you see the Scottish government have a mandate for another Scottish independence referendum when the brexit deal is known.
So question to you if the Tories said no and blocked it would that be an undemocratic move to make considering the Scottish government have a mandate from the people? "It's not the Tories, it's the British government. It makes no difference if that government is Tory, Labour, LibDem or a coalition. As I have already said, it's the responsibility of all government, whether national or local, to uphold the rule of law in a democratic society. The law says that the Scottish government can ask but the British government can say "not yet". The only democratic thing to do is to follow the law. So far the SNP has done and I'm pretty sure they will continue to do so. The British Government's argument against another referendum now is quite simple. There was a referendum on the issue of independence less than 5 years ago. Normally I would agree with this argument however BREXIT poses a possible fundamental change to Scotland's position within Europe so the argument that the situation now has fundamentally change carries some weight. On the other hand nothing has actually changed yet and currently we have no real idea how fundamental any change as a result of BREXIY might be. If, when we know what BREXIT is actually going be, it really leaves Scotland in a fundamentally different situation than it is now then the democratic case for a another referendum on Scottish independence would be stronger. If either BREXIT does not actually happen or it's a very soft sort of BREXIT that doesn't really change things much for Scotland then I see no democratic case for another Scottish Independence referendum within a generation of the last one. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ?
I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to an illegal demo that the police were going to disperse.
illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ?
Peaceful protest? It was an illegal vote against the constitution, this of course has already been explained to you already but don't let your agenda get on the way of facts....
Did you see any Catalan people throw a punch first ? Who caused the bloodshed ?
"The Catalan authorities caused the bloodshed (although bloodshed might be a bit strong as that normally implies that someone has been killed) by acting outside the law in a democratic state. | |||
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"Also am hearing Slovenia will recognise independent Catalonia So that will be the first country in the EU to recognise am guessing more will follow i can Ireland doing the same Scotland , Wales also prob N.Ireland too Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland can't recognised any new governments as they don't have National Governments only regional assemblies. Scotland has a parliament and its called Holyrood lol You can call it what you like but is still effectively only a regional assembly with no National power. Parliament not assembly So now Holyrood has no power ? Lol " It was set up as The Scottish Executive and it was the snp changed the name to government. In Wales it is called The Welsh Assembly but as I am having a senior moment I can't remember what the NI name is. | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? " Only if BREXIT leaves Scotland in a fundamentally different situation than it was in 2014, and we won't know that for sure until we know what sort of BREXIT, if any, we finally end up with. The SNP's mandate, as put in their manifesto, was only if there was a fundamentally change. That fundamentally change has not happened yet and may never actually happen. | |||
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" Right so do you think the Scottish government has a mandate to hold referendum on independence ? What if the UK government block it would you think that is being undemocratic ? Yes the SNP can ask for another Referendum. No they can't just hold one. No it wouldn't be undemocratic to say no but it wouldn't be just dismissed out of hand as I'm sure you think. The reasons for the denial would have to be given and they would have to be reasonable, sensible reasons. Thats not what i asked I asked you do you think the Scottish government have a mandate to hold another independence referendum ? No, they dont. You have had this explained to you again and again and again. Only Westminster can grant that. It's not a power devolved from parliament. If you don't believe me, then why haven't the SNP just gone and done it? Oh my oh my CLCC So let me fill you in SNP 2016 manifesto - Scotland’s choice At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future. Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be. Last year’s Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum. The recent vote of Scotland’s national Parliament has underlined that mandate. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists. And, in such circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future - when the time is right and the options are clear - would be democratically unsustainable The Scottish people elected the SNP into Holyrood where there is a pro indy majority btw So the Scottish voters gave the Scottish government a mandate and here you are saying you dont respect that mandate wow " Only as long as the snp request the green party puppets support it as the snp LOST their majority and must rely on the greens for any mandate !! | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to." Actually they would on the basis that not enough time has passed since the last referendum on the very same issue. Only if Scotland's situation is fundamentally different from what it was in 2014 does a mandate exist for another referendum so close to the last one. BREXIT may provide that fundamental change but, until we know what BREXIT is actually going to be, we just don't know yet. | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. The conditions have been met thats what am telling you The Scottish people elected SNP on their manifesto peldge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known. Holyrood had a vote on the section 30 order to ask Westminster to hold a legally binding referendum like the last one So its good to see you say the Tories have no basis/ grounds to refuse to allow one good that you agree with me " But the British Government does have the grounds to refuse another referendum on the grounds that it's too close to the last one and, so far, nothing has fundamentally changed in Scotland since 2014. | |||
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"If the Scottish voters, government and assembly all agreed they wanted a referendum, it is really unlikely which ever party that was in power in Westminster would decline it as they'd have no basis to. The Scottish voted to elect the SNP on their manifesto pledge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known Holyrood had a vote and the section 30 passed So what your saying is the Tories has no basis to ignore the mandate? No. I'm saying that if all the conditions of the mandate are met, when the SNP ask Westminster for another Referendum they would be unlikely to have grounds to decline the request. The conditions have been met thats what am telling you The Scottish people elected SNP on their manifesto peldge to hold a referendum when the final brexit deal is known. Holyrood had a vote on the section 30 order to ask Westminster to hold a legally binding referendum like the last one So its good to see you say the Tories have no basis/ grounds to refuse to allow one good that you agree with me The Brexit deal isn't known yet so the conditions aren't all met. And if it's a deal beneficial to Scotland then the conditions still won't have been met. Only a deal leaving Scotland worse off will fulfill them. Yes i know once the brexit deal is known and before the UK leaves Scotland has the right to hold a referendum to allow the Scottish voters to decide if they agree to the brexit deal or not correct ? " No, it still doesn't have the right but it would have a stronger mandate. | |||
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"Should indipendance be granted what effect will it have within the rest of Europe? How many times have unilateral declarations of independence resulted in a peaceful transition without loss of life? I'm not that clued up on politics however we have lived in Spain for a few years now. Sorry if I sound numb on the subject how will this affect the rest of Spain
Well it could lead to civil war.
Well we know what side will cause that dont we ?
The Catalan people have shown no threat and held their hands up
Where as we all saw Spanish police beat the hell out of innocent people. Or is that fake news lol
Well I'm firmly on the side that doesn't want to see bloodshed. It's really not worth it.
Good to see. So if the Spanish police use force and beat the hell out of Calatan people. You will be on the side of Catalan people ?
The Spanish state have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
So you not on the side on of the Catalan people ? So you would ok seeing Spanish police beat the hell out of Catalan people standing in the street holding up their hands showing no threat ?
Very dark place to go.
Tell me this if you were protesting in a public street and the police came upto you and starting hitting you even if you had your hands up showing no threat would you think its acceptable ?
I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to an illegal demo that the police were going to disperse.
illegal demo ? Lol Strange when did that rule come in that people are now not allowed to protest peaceful ?
Peaceful protest? It was an illegal vote against the constitution, this of course has already been explained to you already but don't let your agenda get on the way of facts....
Did you see any Catalan people throw a punch first ? Who caused the bloodshed ?
The Catalan authorities caused the bloodshed (although bloodshed might be a bit strong as that normally implies that someone has been killed) by acting outside the law in a democratic state."if you act outside the law then you must be prepared for the consequences weather you belive your cause is worthy or not | |||
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"A lot of fascist tendencies on display here." I don't think that any specifically facist tendencies have been displayed here, and I assume from the brevity of your post you are able to actually identify any. | |||
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"Oh i get the feeling alot of people are shitting themselves that the Scottish government have a mandate a triple lock mandate for an independence referendum Breaking news everyone democracy didnt end on the 18th Sept 2014 its not an event So when the final brexit deal is known and before the UK leaves Scotland will have an independence referendum to ask the Scottish people if they agree to the final deal or would rather independence there is no basis or grounds to deny one and you all know really i mean come on the PM had the chance to rule one out but choose to say now is not the time when is the time then ? Hoping that it will all go away if you bury it lol It does appear alot of people dont want to let people decide there own futures Like i said Spain could have let a binding referendum happen if they honestly believe the majority dont want independence should have put there money where there mouth is The fact they didnt shows you the are shit feart of losing the catalan tax payers money we all know Catalonia is a rich state and Spain loses all that and prob the Spanish economy crashes " OMG! You really are obtuse! There is NO Scottish government! There is a regional assembly that has a ruling group that receive its powers from the BRITISH GOVERNMENT which rules the WHOLE OF THE UK! you can continue to lie to yourself as much as you like but you will not change those facts! | |||
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"Oh i get the feeling alot of people are shitting themselves that the Scottish government have a mandate a triple lock mandate for an independence referendum Breaking news everyone democracy didnt end on the 18th Sept 2014 its not an event So when the final brexit deal is known and before the UK leaves Scotland will have an independence referendum to ask the Scottish people if they agree to the final deal or would rather independence there is no basis or grounds to deny one and you all know really i mean come on the PM had the chance to rule one out but choose to say now is not the time when is the time then ? Hoping that it will all go away if you bury it lol It does appear alot of people dont want to let people decide there own futures Like i said Spain could have let a binding referendum happen if they honestly believe the majority dont want independence should have put there money where there mouth is The fact they didnt shows you the are shit feart of losing the catalan tax payers money we all know Catalonia is a rich state and Spain loses all that and prob the Spanish economy crashes " Spain could NOT allow a binding referendum, for the simple fact that their constitution doesn't allow it. It would need their constitution to be amended first. There is a right and logical way of doing things, and a wrong and anarchic way. | |||
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"Oh i get the feeling alot of people are shitting themselves that the Scottish government have a mandate a triple lock mandate for an independence referendum Breaking news everyone democracy didnt end on the 18th Sept 2014 its not an event So when the final brexit deal is known and before the UK leaves Scotland will have an independence referendum to ask the Scottish people if they agree to the final deal or would rather independence there is no basis or grounds to deny one and you all know really i mean come on the PM had the chance to rule one out but choose to say now is not the time when is the time then ? Hoping that it will all go away if you bury it lol It does appear alot of people dont want to let people decide there own futures Like i said Spain could have let a binding referendum happen if they honestly believe the majority dont want independence should have put there money where there mouth is The fact they didnt shows you the are shit feart of losing the catalan tax payers money we all know Catalonia is a rich state and Spain loses all that and prob the Spanish economy crashes Spain could NOT allow a binding referendum, for the simple fact that their constitution doesn't allow it. It would need their constitution to be amended first. There is a right and logical way of doing things, and a wrong and anarchic way. " so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship | |||
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"Why is it people on here dont want to see Scotland independent ? Why dont you want to see Scotland be given full control over everything ? " The Scottish electorate don't want an independent Scotland. That's why they voted to remain part of the UK.  | |||
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"Catalan parliament to hold an extraordinary session on Thursday, which could lead to a vote declaring secession from Spain. Also seeing Spain would use force if Catalonia protests against direct rule If that should happen then its a clear breach of Lisbon Treaty Article 2" I dont understand the issues of Catalan independence but I was appalled to see the violence used by the police | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship " You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. | |||
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"Why is it people on here dont want to see Scotland independent ? Why dont you want to see Scotland be given full control over everything ? The Scottish electorate don't want an independent Scotland. That's why they voted to remain part of the UK. "Yes again in 2014 Scotland voted no to independence CLCC democracy is not a one off event Since 2014 Scottish voters elected a party on a manifesto saying if Scotland were to vote remain in the EU then it should have the right to hold an independence referendum thats mandate from the Scottish voters Also in the Scottish parliament there was a vote on the section 30 order and it passed 69 to 59 you telling me that is not to be respected ? Why do you want to deny the Scottish people a right to decide if they agree to brexit or independence ? | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. " Ok simple question was Franco a dictator ? | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. Ok simple question was Franco a dictator ? " Franco died in 1975. The world has moved on. | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. Ok simple question was Franco a dictator ? Franco died in 1975. The world has moved on." Oh god yes i know when he died I am only asking a question was Franco a dictator ? | |||
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"accept living under another dictatorship " Yep, because like it or not that is what we all do. No country in this world has a real democracy, some have a form of 'parliamentary democracy' but be sure of one thing the general population only get to choose between prospective representatives that the state deems fit and once we make our choice we have no choice but to do as we are told. And that kiddywinks is the definition of a dictatorship. | |||
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"I am only asking a question was Franco a dictator ? " Rather than ask that question read about the Spanish civil war and the support Franco got from the Nazi Condor Squadrons. Maybe take a little time out to read about the Guernica bombing and have a look at Picasso's painting (it may help you understand why the Basques and Catalans hate the Spanish state). | |||
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"Why is it people on here dont want to see Scotland independent ? Why dont you want to see Scotland be given full control over everything ? The Scottish electorate don't want an independent Scotland. That's why they voted to remain part of the UK. "
I am part of the majority that vote no !!!! | |||
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"Why is it people on here dont want to see Scotland independent ? Why dont you want to see Scotland be given full control over everything ? The Scottish electorate don't want an independent Scotland. That's why they voted to remain part of the UK.
I am part of the majority that vote no !!!!"Ok so do you accept democracy is not an event and the Scottish government to do have a mandate for a 2nd indy ref ? Also say Scottish Labour branch won the 2016 Scottish elections would they have a mandate to deliver there polices from there manifesto ? | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. Ok simple question was Franco a dictator ? Franco died in 1975. The world has moved on." Exactly. Franco was a dictator, Spain is not currently a dictatorship. These are such ridiculous and moronic questions. Luckily the thread will soon come to a close. | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. Ok simple question was Franco a dictator ? Franco died in 1975. The world has moved on. Exactly. Franco was a dictator, Spain is not currently a dictatorship. These are such ridiculous and moronic questions. Luckily the thread will soon come to a close. " Right so i do have an idea what dictatorships is then lol So you dont think Rajoy is acting in the same ways as Franco then ? Lol | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. Ok simple question was Franco a dictator ? Franco died in 1975. The world has moved on. Exactly. Franco was a dictator, Spain is not currently a dictatorship. These are such ridiculous and moronic questions. Luckily the thread will soon come to a close. Right so i do have an idea what dictatorships is then lol So you dont think Rajoy is acting in the same ways as Franco then ? Lol " They have political opposition parties in Spain, free elections, a free press and media. The Spanish people have choices available to them. You really are content to make a bigger laughing stock of yourself with these kind of postings! | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. Ok simple question was Franco a dictator ? Franco died in 1975. The world has moved on. Exactly. Franco was a dictator, Spain is not currently a dictatorship. These are such ridiculous and moronic questions. Luckily the thread will soon come to a close. Right so i do have an idea what dictatorships is then lol So you dont think Rajoy is acting in the same ways as Franco then ? Lol " No. He is the democratically elected leader, the Spanish people have multiple levels of representation, the rule of law, functioning judicial systems etx. What is your definition of a dictatorship? Naming one dictator doesn't mean you understand what a dictatorship is. Your posts have shown your ignorance of virtually all of the basic political concepts. You dont know what a country is. You don't know what the rule of law is. You don't understand the Westminster parliamentary system. You don't understand different forms of government. | |||
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" so if the Spanish goverment refuse to accept the amendments to the constitution then what ? The Catalans voted to have a referendum that must be respected or what just tell them so what accept living under another dictatorship You have no idea what a dictatorship is, and you belittle the lives and struggles of those who do live under them by comparing Spain with a dictatorship. The Catalan people live under the rule of law, the have representation at a local, national and EU level. The have protection of their domestic courts, the ECJ and the ECHR. They are free to move internally and externally etc. Ok simple question was Franco a dictator ? Franco died in 1975. The world has moved on. Exactly. Franco was a dictator, Spain is not currently a dictatorship. These are such ridiculous and moronic questions. Luckily the thread will soon come to a close. Right so i do have an idea what dictatorships is then lol So you dont think Rajoy is acting in the same ways as Franco then ? Lol They have political opposition parties in Spain, free elections, a free press and media. The Spanish people have choices available to them. You really are content to make a bigger laughing stock of yourself with these kind of postings!" | |||
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" Dont try and tell me " No one can tell you anything. | |||
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"Breaking news Catalonia is not Spain! Just like Britain is not England lol Dont try and tell me there is no one outside of the British isles that when they think of Britain they mostly think of England first " Catalonia is part of Spain, and England is part of Britain. Although I have no idea what that has to do with anything, or why you are describing this as breaking news. I did notice though how you have refused to give your definition of what a dictatorship is. | |||
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"Why is it people on here dont want to see Scotland independent ? Why dont you want to see Scotland be given full control over everything ? The Scottish electorate don't want an independent Scotland. That's why they voted to remain part of the UK.
I am part of the majority that vote no !!!!
Ok so do you accept democracy is not an event and the Scottish government to do have a mandate for a 2nd indy ref ?
Also say Scottish Labour branch won the 2016 Scottish elections would they have a mandate to deliver there polices from there manifesto ?
"you are asking the wrong person. As I have stated before if Indy was gonna be good for Scotland in 2014 it should be good at all times. I would love a referendum tomorrow! !!! | |||
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