FabSwingers.com forum: Political correctness

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Has it gone too far are people becoming afraid to speak there mind if fear of being call "racists"or being told you can't say that , maybe not here where there but in public ?? What's your thinking

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

Of course it has. It is perfectly reasonable and I would suggest healthy to challenge benighted ideas and beliefs and champion progressive thoughts and attitudes. It is totally unacceptable to use memes as justification to shut down debate. The argument it's right because we say it is right and there can be no decent is the first step to authoritarianism and dictatorship.

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

Yes way to far Iv been called racist a few times tday on here for quoting a headline It's bad when you can't have a reasonable debate with out been labelled a racist

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

Depends on the specifics. Its not political correctness gone mad to say race/gender doesnt define your ability to do complicated work. But there are some times where it crosses a line. Those arent as frequent as people being discriminatory though.

But you cant complain about your own lack of freedom of expression by criticising others for expressing their disagreement with your views.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Has it gone too far are people becoming afraid to speak there mind if fear of being call "racists"or being told you can't say that , maybe not here where there but in public ?? What's your thinking "

Yes we need more politically incorrect people for balance.The policing of language will continue as long as liberals still exist.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

Stewart Lee has the perfect answer. Have a look at his Political Correctness routine on you tube.

As he says, it's clumsy but it is better than what we had before and as we still see racism, bigotry, misogyny and homophobia and minorities are still often lagging behind in many fields then it can't really be said to have gone too far.

Nearly all of the stories about 'Political Correctness Gone Mad turn out to be fucking bullshit but regurgitated by the racists, of which, brexit has shown, we have a lot more than we thought and, almost as bad, an awful lot of people prepared to look the other way and give tacit approval.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Yes way to far Iv been called racist a few times tday on here for quoting a headline It's bad when you can't have a reasonable debate with out been labelled a racist "

Maybe if you said you were quoting a headline rather than posting it as your own you would not be accused of racism.

Just a thought.

And as I was the one who first called out people in that thread for racism you may like to go back and reread what I posted because on every occasion I gave valid reasons why the statements made by you were racist. The fact that you neither mentioned anything I said or challenged the veracity of what I said proves that in fact you did understand why what you posted was racist. Shame you ere not able to step back from any of your posts but instead choose to try and justify yourself and legitimise my posts in another thread here by implying that I have used political correctness to silence you!

And just to be clear what you have just tried to do here is use exactly the same tactics as used by the PC brigade to justify an untenable position and silence decent.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Take it a step further , where is the line between the right to have your own opinion and to express it and being branded racist ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Take it a step further , where is the line between the right to have your own opinion and to express it and being branded racist ?"
The clever person walks the line the stupid one crosses it.The line is decided by the culture you live in and the zeitgeist(mindset of the time).

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Good answer ,

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"The clever person walks the line the stupid one crosses it.The line is decided by the culture you live in and the zeitgeist(mindset of the time).

Mmmm...

Isn't that more a description of how a clever racist gets away with it and a stupid or poorly educated one does not? Surly ans ages zeitgeist defines what can be got away with not what is and is not racism?

Would you not agree that the real difference between what is and is not racism is one of what can be demonstrated as a logically justifiable conclusion drawn from evidence (preferably of the direct empirical type), as against prejudices based solely on differences in appearance or culture?

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

There ya go again racist and brexit in the same post what is the fucking point

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

[Removed by poster at 11/08/17 19:45:47]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh well I thought I was leaving but didn't

Not yet anyways

Ta for the nice byes tho

Simple Test ?

Would you be perfectly happy without question if your son , daughter married a girl / guy / from another county or of mixed coulere race etc ?

Assuming he or she were nice and you know in your heart if they were the same race couler as you ? Be it black , white , pink or purple !

And like wise when they had had your grandkids

If your perfectly happy and just pleased they've met someone nice

your not Racist !

On the other hand if your not happy as they arnt nice and you know you wouldn't be happy if they were the same couler or creed as you !

Then I'd say you weren't Racist either !

Simples

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sorry wrong Imogie when I said ta for the byes lol

they were nice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes political correctness has gone mad in the west, the lefties, liberals and the feminists are killing us slowly with their political correct fantasy world, they are so narrow minded they dont see sharia law creeping up on them bit by bit, finally trump is re writing the meaning of it, he is the saviour of christianitys future.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yes political correctness has gone mad in the west, the lefties, liberals and the feminists are killing us slowly with their political correct fantasy world, they are so narrow minded they dont see sharia law creeping up on them bit by bit, finally trump is re writing the meaning of it, he is the saviour of christianitys future."
What I don't get is this !

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example !

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

"What I don't get is this !

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example ! "

Why are you talking about Sharia Law?

Apart from being a mislabelling, it is totally fucking irrelevant to any discussion about liberal lefties, political correctness or indeed British Law.

Sharia council's rulings have no legal standing here or abroad, and they have no enforcement powers. As unofficial bodies, they also have no jurisdiction over custody or financial issues.

In short citizens can use the full protection of British Law and citizenship and ignore any ruling by a Sharia Council if they wish.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What I don't get is this !

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example !

Why are you talking about Sharia Law?

Apart from being a mislabelling, it is totally fucking irrelevant to any discussion about liberal lefties, political correctness or indeed British Law.

Sharia council's rulings have no legal standing here or abroad, and they have no enforcement powers. As unofficial bodies, they also have no jurisdiction over custody or financial issues.

In short citizens can use the full protection of British Law and citizenship and ignore any ruling by a Sharia Council if they wish. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What I don't get is this !

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example !

Why are you talking about Sharia Law?

Apart from being a mislabelling, it is totally fucking irrelevant to any discussion about liberal lefties, political correctness or indeed British Law.

Sharia council's rulings have no legal standing here or abroad, and they have no enforcement powers. As unofficial bodies, they also have no jurisdiction over custody or financial issues.

In short citizens can use the full protection of British Law and citizenship and ignore any ruling by a Sharia Council if they wish. "
I was replying to a previous post ! Please don't swear at me ! I wouldn't to you !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example ! "
That is right it would, but it wouldnt be good as a country as a whole, what have goerge done?

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"What I don't get is this !

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example !

Why are you talking about Sharia Law?

Apart from being a mislabelling, it is totally fucking irrelevant to any discussion about liberal lefties, political correctness or indeed British Law.

Sharia council's rulings have no legal standing here or abroad, and they have no enforcement powers. As unofficial bodies, they also have no jurisdiction over custody or financial issues.

In short citizens can use the full protection of British Law and citizenship and ignore any ruling by a Sharia Council if they wish. "

I think it's sheer paranoia with a bit of desire to have an evil Islamic bogeyman to fight.

PC can go too far (as absolutely any movement or system of thought can), but the vast majority of cases of 'PC gone mad' turn out to be made up, exaggerated, or misinterpreted.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

"What I don't get is this !

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example !

Why are you talking about Sharia Law?

Apart from being a mislabelling, it is totally fucking irrelevant to any discussion about liberal lefties, political correctness or indeed British Law.

Sharia council's rulings have no legal standing here or abroad, and they have no enforcement powers. As unofficial bodies, they also have no jurisdiction over custody or financial issues.

In short citizens can use the full protection of British Law and citizenship and ignore any ruling by a Sharia Council if they wish. I was replying to a previous post ! Please don't swear at me ! I wouldn't to you !"

You were replying to a post that was a piss take and taking it seriously, thus giving credence to something that really doesn't deserve it. Hence your post earned a bit of colourful language. So if you can't take a bit of swearing, don't be a dick in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 12/08/17 00:26:26]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What I don't get is this !

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example !

Why are you talking about Sharia Law?

Apart from being a mislabelling, it is totally fucking irrelevant to any discussion about liberal lefties, political correctness or indeed British Law.

Sharia council's rulings have no legal standing here or abroad, and they have no enforcement powers. As unofficial bodies, they also have no jurisdiction over custody or financial issues.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

In that case I'd better apologise to Suits and call you a dick instead.

Sharia Law ffs!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is how the debate is shut down

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Hate and equality laws exist for good reason but there are no political correctness laws. Hate crime is wrong and should be stopped, as with people who incite hatred based on prejudice.

Thr daily fail and express often use the correctness term to help justify prejudice due to hatred. Intelligent and respectful people know how to treat others who may be different, based on their uniqueness, rather than due to cultural bias. It's a good call.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The only bad thing about political correctness is we had to come up with a fancy name for "stop being such a wretched shit"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In that case I'd better apologise to Suits and call you a dick instead.

Sharia Law ffs!"
accepted

tho I don't think he is a dick either

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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago

south west , continental

we have those Frankfurt school cultural Marxists to thank for this PC stuff.

One of their comrades Marcuse wrote a book in 1965 called 'repressive tolerance' basically about the repression of correct ideas. He coined the term 'liberating tolerance'.

Which called for tolerance of all ideas from the left but intolerance for ideas from those on the right.

So since 1965 we have had a slow drip drip effect of political correctness which today engulfs all academic, social and political areas. Pretty damn good brain washing tactics. Bet that book is fantastic bed time reading!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Be politically incorrect while remaining morally correct

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By *bandjam91Couple
over a year ago

London

"Take it a step further , where is the line between the right to have your own opinion and to express it and being branded racist ?"

The line is crossed when you say something racist.

You're still entitled to say it, but likewise people are entitled to point it out.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

Political correctness means that racsism goes underground that is a bad thing in my view

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Without opposite ends of the scale there would be no balance.

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"Has it gone too far are people becoming afraid to speak there mind if fear of being call "racists"or being told you can't say that , maybe not here where there but in public ?? What's your thinking

Political correctness means that racsism goes underground that is a bad thing in my view"

Ideas without public voice and attention wither away.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ideas without public voice and attention wither away."

Yes but this works both ways, there has to be a margin of free speech.

You can see how the mens right movement in the US (where there are real inequalities on father's rights especially... For example, guys who have DNA proof they are not the father going to jail for not keeping up child support) are absolutely crushed by a politically correct ideal of Feminism.

These guys don't even have a voice as their events get shut down in advance.

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By *omaMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will

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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago

south west , continental

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will "

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will "

And what day was that then? I don't know of anyone who has ever been offended at the term blackboard. Let me guess the Daily Mail told you to be outraged by it?

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will "

And, I assume, under the great and noble tradition of "that's not my problem" when people tell you you're full of shit, you'll gladly take it on the chin and not whine about PC gone mad.

Just curious, is all...

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Sharia law would destroy the lefties liberal sect yet some do turn a blind eye

George Galloway for Example ! "

Avowed atheist George Galloway?

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will "

This is an absolute fallacy, and the kind of false argument people put up to undermine what is essentially a strategy to reduce hateful or derogatory language, political correctness. The blackboard, black coffee etc, nobody has ever seriously suggested that the word black can not be used in any of those contexts. It's exactly the same as the 'bendy banana' anti-EU argument that never existed in reality.

It's a way for those opposing political correnlctness to undermine it subtly without addressing the meat of the substance, that in the 1970s there was a huge issue of racism and racist language being a normalised part of society. Thankfully many of us have moved beyond that. Unfortunately some want to hold onto it.

I've heard the argument put that political correctness drives racism underground. Good! We need a society where it is not OK to use hateful or derogatory speech. The outcome of the opposite should be being bought clearly into view in Charlottesville in the USA where the 'alt-right' neo-nazis feel a renewed sense of freedom due to a President who has decried political correctness and begun to normalise hate speech.

Political correctness is an attempt, however clunky, to protect the most abused and deprived and discriminated parts of society from abuse and attack.

So when we challenge political correctness, ask yourselves two questions. Why, and what will be the outcome?

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By *omaMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will

And, I assume, under the great and noble tradition of "that's not my problem" when people tell you you're full of shit, you'll gladly take it on the chin and not whine about PC gone mad.

Just curious, is all..."

Yes,sorry to disappoint you by not rising to your inferred comment, I do take it on the chin, they have as much right to an opinion as I do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will

Political correctness is an attempt, however clunky, to protect the most abused and deprived and discriminated parts of society from abuse and attack.

So when we challenge political correctness, ask yourselves two questions. Why, and what will be the outcome?"

I agree with the sentiment but wholeheartedly disagree because a turning point generally forms where things that need to be talked about become unspeakable.

For example... It is seen as politically incorrect to discuss men's issues as it's seen as an affront to the feminist attitudes that are so de jour.

If you dissent, you support r*pe by default.... That is the message used against fathers rights activists in the states. They are shot down by hoards of feminazis shouting "r*pe apologist" to silence debate with vilification.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will

And, I assume, under the great and noble tradition of "that's not my problem" when people tell you you're full of shit, you'll gladly take it on the chin and not whine about PC gone mad.

Just curious, is all...

Yes,sorry to disappoint you by not rising to your inferred comment, I do take it on the chin, they have as much right to an opinion as I do.

So you say, can't say I believe you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will

Political correctness is an attempt, however clunky, to protect the most abused and deprived and discriminated parts of society from abuse and attack.

So when we challenge political correctness, ask yourselves two questions. Why, and what will be the outcome?

I agree with the sentiment but wholeheartedly disagree because a turning point generally forms where things that need to be talked about become unspeakable.

For example... It is seen as politically incorrect to discuss men's issues as it's seen as an affront to the feminist attitudes that are so de jour.

Yeah. No.

Men's issues fall under the umbrella of feminist issues, but when people say they want to talk about men's issues what they mean is they think women have had enough time to prattle on, now it's time to talk about the *real* problems, but in a way that denies that women's issues exist.

Unsurprisingly, when they get pushback on this attitude, they cry foul and wonder why nobody wants to listen to them.

The fucking tools.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

First of all, we need to stop conflating liberalism with Marxism. Liberalism believes in the preservation of the capitalist system, which Marx is probably the most famous writer to critique. This is his focus, not "culture". So the term "cultural Marxism" is bullshit concept designed to pin political correctness, a totally liberal thing on Marxists.

Also, there are plenty of things which you're not allowed to say if you want to participate in the political process. You have to swear an oath to a monarch, whether or not you believe we should have one. Until now, which might change, you'd have had a pretty hard time questioning our "special relationship" with the US. Oh and of course criticising the Israeli government would make you an anti-semite. The last two I think had a lot to do with why the liberal wing of the Labour party were so against Corbyn, rather than his supposed unelectability.

Because these are mainly left positions, they're not classed as "political correctness".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh and FTR, most of the left think that George Galloway is a twat.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will "

How many people exactly? Do you have any polling data?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Stewart Lee thing is hilarious, even if I don't completely share his enthusiasm for it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Demonjohn, your point is riddled with logical errors so I won't even respond to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Demonjohn, your point is riddled with logical errors so I won't even respond to. "

Won't, or can't?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Won't of course...

Why aren't the feminists actively working on the mens rights stuff if we follow your flawed logic?

Use custody rights as the example

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Won't of course...

Why aren't the feminists actively working on the mens rights stuff if we follow your flawed logic?

Use custody rights as the example "

They are, you're just not paying attention.

The problem with custody rights is that society at large tends to view raising children as women's work, and as a result custody is often awarded to the mother.

We also see this when society places expectations on women to give up their own ambitions to raise children, and tends to disapprove of women who don't, and as a consequence see stay at home fathers as a deviance from the expected norms.

The goal of feminism is to treat men and women as equals, so if we could actually manage that, and it's not easy, then we could stop seeing women as innate caregivers and mothers, and deferring to them in custody matters.

This is probably the simplest example if where if men could stand not having their grievances as being the most important thing in the universe for five minutes they'd realise they have a shared cause and solution with feminists and would achieve more if they worked with them, instead of spiting them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Also, didn't you just say you won't respond to it

Then proceed to respond?

Jesus wept, make up your mind.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just giving you more rope to hang yourself with illogical nonsense

The same goals but different outcomes.. Laughable

So Feminism is anti socialisation of gender norms if raising kids blah yet fights against paternity rights yet is working on men's issues.

Make up your mind

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And I'll call you back to my original point about feminists actively protesting at fathers rights talks (which would allow more women to break the caretaking "norm").

Hence it's not about men and their grievances not working towards a shared ideal it is the exact opposite with feminists blocking discussion on a real issue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just giving you more rope to hang yourself with illogical nonsense

The same goals but different outcomes.. Laughable

So Feminism is anti socialisation of gender norms if raising kids blah yet fights against paternity rights yet is working on men's issues.

Make up your mind"

Saying things are illogical does not make it so.

And no, nothing about feminism fights against paternal rights.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You are just making these things up now Demon

There are many examples of feminists shutting down free speech on the matter in the red pill documentary (which has also been banned in some countries... By feminist campaigners).

A straight up blocking of free speech... Going back to the original point in the name of (perceived) political correctness.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You are just making these things up now Demon

There are many examples of feminists shutting down free speech on the matter in the red pill documentary (which has also been banned in some countries... By feminist campaigners).

A straight up blocking of free speech... Going back to the original point in the name of (perceived) political correctness. "

You're confused.

I said there was nothing about feminism that fights against paternal rights.

What the people who made, what I'm going to charitably call, a documentary want you to believe to be individual feminists taking umbrage at that idea doesn't contradict what I said, even if it were true.

In simple terms: Nothing about feminism requires the removing of rights from men, no matter how much you may think it does.

Feminism is a big tent, and not all people who identify as such are good actors, but we don't write off democracy because dictators get elected, so we ought not do the same for feminism simply because bad actors exist under its umbrella.

As for blocking freedom of speech, that only protects people from the state curtailing their speech. Last I checked "feminists" aren't the state, no matter how hysterical self identifying red-pillers get about it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Isn't calling someone a racist someone speaking their mind? So do we want open speech where we ALL speak our minds or political correctness to prevent us from insulting people?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You are just making these things up now Demon

There are many examples of feminists shutting down free speech on the matter in the red pill documentary (which has also been banned in some countries... By feminist campaigners).

A straight up blocking of free speech... Going back to the original point in the name of (perceived) political correctness.

You're confused.

I said there was nothing about feminism that fights against paternal rights.

In simple terms: Nothing about feminism requires the removing of rights from men, no matter how much you may think it does.

The church is a big tent, some priests are paedophiles but it's OK god loves you.

And blocking speech curtails the blocking of speech?

You are talking in riddles.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe we should write off democracy if dictators are being elected....It's interesting how you chose that example and how you see it as OK. A good process can get tipped over to become its polar opposite in pockets

Democracy to dictatorship

"Equality" movement harbouring female supremacists

You are in love with ideology to the point of blindness.

Democracy/Feminism are great because society told me so

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Women’s groups who boycotted nationwide government consultations on changes to divorce law because they refused to sit at the same table as men could get the female-only hearing they have demanded. Although the consultations ended last month, the Justice Department and its provincial partners are considering a special session for “women’s equality-seeking organizations” that are fighting proposed changes to the federal Divorce Act. Those changes would give separated and divorced parents an equal say in raising their children under a new concept called shared parenting. The women’s groups are urging governments “not to cave into a father’s rights groups agenda.

From the National Post newspaper, Canada Nov 2014

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Women’s groups who boycotted nationwide government consultations on changes to divorce law because they refused to sit at the same table as men could get the female-only hearing they have demanded. Although the consultations ended last month, the Justice Department and its provincial partners are considering a special session for “women’s equality-seeking organizations” that are fighting proposed changes to the federal Divorce Act. Those changes would give separated and divorced parents an equal say in raising their children under a new concept called shared parenting. The women’s groups are urging governments “not to cave into a father’s rights groups agenda.

From the National Post newspaper, Canada Nov 2014

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will

Except, of course, that we stopped using the term "blackboard" when the boards that schools used were no longer black, or, indeed written on using chalk.

It was just faux outrage conjured up to sell newspapers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You are just making these things up now Demon

There are many examples of feminists shutting down free speech on the matter in the red pill documentary (which has also been banned in some countries... By feminist campaigners).

A straight up blocking of free speech... Going back to the original point in the name of (perceived) political correctness.

You're confused.

I said there was nothing about feminism that fights against paternal rights.

In simple terms: Nothing about feminism requires the removing of rights from men, no matter how much you may think it does.

The church is a big tent, some priests are paedophiles but it's OK god loves you.

And blocking speech curtails the blocking of speech?

You are talking in riddles. "

No, none of your conclusions above match what is being said. Or even have the slightest bearing on them.

Earlier I asked if you were either unwilling or incapable to demonstrate why you felt that I was being "illogical"

And after this fine display of non sequiturs I can only conclude the answer is incapable.

If you ever want to have a real discussion you can PM me, but frankly when your response to a thorough rebutting of your previous post is screeching about the Catholic church for god alone knows what fucking reason, you're wasting my time and yours.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The church thing is a metaphor for your view on feminism.

I'll ask you again to stop step stepping the point about the feminists objecting to talks on father's rights.

You are saying one thing when the truth reflects another... It's clear to the forum where you are being illogical....but obviously you think you are making perfect sense in your head.

You are using cliched and false platitudes like "Feminism to for men too" (except of course when it's not)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The church thing is a metaphor for your view on feminism.

I'll ask you again to stop step stepping the point about the feminists objecting to talks on father's rights.

You are saying one thing when the truth reflects another... It's clear to the forum where you are being illogical....but obviously you think you are making perfect sense in your head.

You are using cliched and false platitudes like "Feminism to for men too" (except of course when it's not) "

That's not what a metaphor is.

It's more akin to the old "reducto ad hitlerum" where if you contrive an association between a thing you don't like and the Nazis you think you can discount one as easily as the other.

It is, if course, transparent and ridiculous.

For someone who thinks they're logical, you're not very good at demonstrating that.

And while you go on about "the feminists", as if they were of a hive mind, I'd remind you that you've failed to refute the central point - nothing about feminism requires the removing of rights for men.

But if you're going to judge the entirety of feminism by the actions of a few, then I'd equally be within my rights to judge all men's rights activists by Eliot Rodger's actions, and suddenly they don't look so good.

Of course, that's fucking stupid, and obviously so, so perhaps you'd use that as a mirror to reflect upon and correct your own outlook.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That's all grand except there's a gap between feminist theory (of which there are many opposing variants that no one can even define or agree on what it is about... It's amorphous at best) and it's practice... SUCH AS opposing sensible discission on shared parent hood (as a step away from the caregivers gender norm you love to hate)

It's practice is defined as much by the bad actions as the good so you can't bury your head in the sand and say it's fine in "principle"... That's too idealistic...

Hence why I'm painting you as someone fooled by ideology with my church example (hardly a literally Hitlerism)

I don't know or care who Eliot Rogers is

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"That's all grand except there's a gap between feminist theory (of which there are many opposing variants that no one can even define or agree on what it is about... It's amorphous at best) and it's practice... SUCH AS opposing sensible discission on shared parent hood (as a step away from the caregivers gender norm you love to hate)

It's practice is defined as much by the bad actions as the good so you can't bury your head in the sand and say it's fine in "principle"... That's too idealistic...

Hence why I'm painting you as someone fooled by ideology with my church example (hardly a literally Hitlerism)

I don't know or care who Eliot Rogers is

Protip: you're not supposed to admit your trying to portray someone as something they're not.

And Eliot Rodger was the guy who went on a shooting spree in Isla Vista because he'd become convinced that women and their dastardly feminism were the source of all his woes. We're I to join you in being dishonest I might try and ape your reasoning and conclude that men's rights is a breeding ground for violent killers, seeing as it's defined as we can define anything by the bad as well as the good.

Of course, this doesn't really do anything to answer the question you were asked. What about feminism requires the removing of rights for men?

But it does make me wonder why you uncritically assign blame to the feminist groups in your tale. You've been told, and accepted, that its all the fault of those feminist, and it's has never seemed to cross your mind to ask "why" or indeed "and what of it".

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It's practice is defined as much by the bad actions as the good so you can't bury your head in the sand and say it's fine in "principle"... That's too idealistic...

Hence why I'm painting you as someone fooled by ideology with my church example (hardly a literally Hitlerism)

I don't know or care who Eliot Rogers is

We can just focus on the important bits, to gain common agreement -

True equality for all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's practice is defined as much by the bad actions as the good so you can't bury your head in the sand and say it's fine in "principle"... That's too idealistic...

Hence why I'm painting you as someone fooled by ideology with my church example (hardly a literally Hitlerism)

I don't know or care who Eliot Rogers is

We can just focus on the important bits, to gain common agreement -

True equality for all.

Wouldn't that be grand

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It's practice is defined as much by the bad actions as the good so you can't bury your head in the sand and say it's fine in "principle"... That's too idealistic...

Hence why I'm painting you as someone fooled by ideology with my church example (hardly a literally Hitlerism)

I don't know or care who Eliot Rogers is

We can just focus on the important bits, to gain common agreement -

True equality for all.

Wouldn't that be grand

Yes. It's overdue

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It really would be grand, and if you actually watched the red pill you would see that the mens side are look for consensus and collaboration while the feminists were busy screaming and shouting and blowing air horns.

John... You are a pain in the ass with your "pro tips" and "reduction ad hitlerum"... All silly things you heard on the Internet to use as distractions from the evidence I have against your point.

The article I quoted (the womens association fighting a shared parenting law - move towards true equality surely? - not one rogue gunman but a large and influential organisation)... Shows at least one small part of Feminism that goes against men's rights.

Remember we started talking about free speech... And i raised the crazier side of Feminism because blocking free speech is their tactic.

I'll wait for your lame duck answer based on theory and not practice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You can ape my reasoning with a strawman psycho killer argumemt all you want

It just shows that you can't think critically.

I'll answer your question, the group working to erode or not reinstill fathers rights are example of how Feminism is not always in the interest of men's right (there are known inequalities in this area)

But but but "Feminism is for everyone".......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It really would be grand, and if you actually watched the red pill you would see that the mens side are look for consensus and collaboration while the feminists were busy screaming and shouting and blowing air horns.

John... You are a pain in the ass with your "pro tips" and "reduction ad hitlerum"... All silly things you heard on the Internet to use as distractions from the evidence I have against your point.

Remember we started talking about free speech... And i raised the crazier side of Feminism because blocking free speech is their tactic.

I'll wait for your lame duck answer based on theory and not practice. "

I'm not surprised that a "documentary" called red-pill portrayed feminists as the villains and the men as maligned heroes.

That doesn't make their version of reality correct though, as much as you might wish it did.

And by your quoted article they didn't "fight a shared parenting law" they boycotted consultations where they would have to share space and time with men's rights groups. So that's a lie.

Speaking of, you've still not wondered why you believed the version of events presented by that "documentary" so uncritically. Are these feminists wrong to not want to share space with men's rights groups? You seem to believe so, but don't seem to know why.

Given how openly hostile men's rights groups are to feminism as a whole, who can blame then? What good could possibly come from sharing space and time with a group who believe you to be at best uppity women who are taking away from the 'real issues' and at worst "feminazis"

Does that sound productive to you? It doesn't to me.

The thought process seems to have been "feminists do a thing" therefore they must be at fault, which is stupefyingly simple and obviously wrong.

And once again, free speech laws only stop the state from curtailing your speech. Nobody is owed a platform. Pretending otherwise is dishonest.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You are assuming that I haven't looked at both sides with a critical eye whereas I know you to be more into blind faith.

I despise "red pillers" as much as radical feminists... They are the same in opposite directions.

You are judging the name and not the content. It was made by a feminist woman and is balanced in its approach. A mildly feminist friend put me on to it actually after it changed her mind on many things.

What do you think about feminist run domestic violence shelters not giving refuge to men who are victims of domestic violence?

You are using an overly narrow definition of what free speech/sensoring for correctness is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Also John you are being disingenuous because the article above clearly says that they were fighting the changes to the law in the direction of shared parenting... In addition to not wanting to sit in the same room as men.

Where the collaboration?

It's a perfect example of division where there should be unity.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You are assuming that I haven't looked at both sides with a critical eye whereas I know you to be more into blind faith.

No. You've assumed this because it makes you feel better.

And for someone who claims to have looked at this with a critical eye you are incapable of articulating how you have arrived at your conclusions, simply that you have.

I despise "red pillers" as much as radical feminists... They are the same in opposite directions.

You've been a pains to point out that feminism is illogical and feminists unreasonable, why does that suddenly change when one says something you agree with?

What do you think about feminist run domestic violence shelters not giving refuge to men who are victims of domestic violence?

Perfectly reasonable.

There ought to be men's only shelters for men like that, that there aren't is a failing of society.

You are using an overly narrow definition of what free speech/sensoring for correctness is. "

No, I'm not, I know exactly what free speech is. That you pretend otherwise is of no consequence.

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By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"Political Correctness started it journey to absolute shit the day a Black Board was deemed offensive. . it was then renamed a Chalk Board.

Now, both terms could be used to describe it and both would be correct. It's Black in colour and its a board

It's a board to use chalk on. . . Now many people read this as racist . . That's their problem not mine, I'll speak as I see fit.

Always have done, always will "

Sorry late to the party on this one. But the term Blackboard has never been deemed to be offensive. I am curious to know why you think this though?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Take it a step further , where is the line between the right to have your own opinion and to express it and being branded racist ?"

If a persons opinion is racist, why should people not be allowed to say that?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Take it a step further , where is the line between the right to have your own opinion and to express it and being branded racist ?

If a persons opinion is racist, why should people not be allowed to say that? "

Because free speech is only allowed for some people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are some points that I feel need to be made here.

There is not an equivalence between the feminist movement and the men's rights movement. The feminist movement is borne out of centuries of oppression by state structures, family structures and the capitalist modes of production. Centuries of discriminatory and differential treatment made the fight for women's rights essential, and that fight is still needed. You only need to look at the gender pay gap, number of women in top jobs etc etc.

Men have not been a discriminated against group in any part of modern history, in any society. They have had all of the priveledge, and in the most part, the 'male rights' movement can be seen as a backlash against feminism, and unfortunately many of its loudest proponents seem to wish to preserve that privilege rather than fight for equality,as the vast majority of feminists do.

It is analogous to the 'Black Lives Matter' and 'White Lives Matter' movements in the USA. BLM is a response to not only institutional racism in the police and judiciary but centuries if racism and oppression. The WLM lot appear to be the same reactionary bigots that have emerged out of Trump, Charlottesville and want to maintain their White priveledge in the USA.

Yes to feminism. Yes to BLM.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some points that I feel need to be made here.

Yes to feminism. Yes to BLM. "
I like this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some points that I feel need to be made here.

Yes to feminism. Yes to BLM. "

I agree with most of this with the caveat that we need learn when to see turning points. It's 2017, oppressive structures have been dismantled, there is no pay gap and there is equal opportunity for all in the western world (with the problem of class being greatest). There is a lot to be done in other parts of the world.

Equality for ALL is the goal but it is a target that is being missed by a confused feminist movement where genuine issues that affect men are discounted with this "centuries of oppression" rhetoric.

Each issue should be taken case by case on merit regardless of it concerns men or women but unfortunately it's two opposing forces fighting each other.

All that "activism" does is create division and distraction.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"oppressive structures have been dismantled"

Lolno.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nice argument brother......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Nice argument brother...... "

I felt that the original point deserved a response that matched its lack of substance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Anyone who does not agree with everything the loony left or the SJWs believe in, is a racist

- Mrs. J -

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Of course that oppression has not ended. What a ludicrous thing to say. There absolutely is a gender pay gap, and it's huge.

You only have to look at the recent BBC revelations, the makeup of most boardrooms, most bosses, most business owners etc etc etc

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are some points that I feel need to be made here.

Yes to feminism. Yes to BLM.

Equality for ALL is the goal but it is a target that is being missed by a confused feminist movement where genuine issues that affect men are discounted with this "centuries of oppression" rhetoric.

Each issue should be taken case by case on merit regardless of it concerns men or women but unfortunately it's two opposing forces fighting each other.

All that "activism" does is create division and distraction. "

The big problem with taking each issue case by case is that you fail to see the overriding structures and systems which link all of these struggles together, which not only isolates each group but weakens the whole struggle against discrimination.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"
.

If you actually look at the polls done the most bigoted, homophobic, misogynistic and racist are minorites.

Do you want me to tell you the percentage of Muslims that think homosexuality is moral when polled?.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course that oppression has not ended. What a ludicrous thing to say. There absolutely is a gender pay gap, and it's huge.

You only have to look at the recent BBC revelations, the makeup of most boardrooms, most bosses, most business owners etc etc etc "
.

Of course there's a pay gap, there's a pay gap between me and bill gates, there's a pay gap between me and the average male that leaves university...

Pay gaps exist as part of capitalism.

I just happen to think the guy who spent years in university and came out with shed loads of debt for it happens to deserve more pay!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In the words of naz Shah MP for Bradford...

It's time you all shut your mouths for the good of diversity

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course that oppression has not ended. What a ludicrous thing to say. There absolutely is a gender pay gap, and it's huge.

You only have to look at the recent BBC revelations, the makeup of most boardrooms, most bosses, most business owners etc etc etc .

Of course there's a pay gap, there's a pay gap between me and bill gates, there's a pay gap between me and the average male that leaves university...

Pay gaps exist as part of capitalism.

I just happen to think the guy who spent years in university and came out with shed loads of debt for it happens to deserve more pay!

I guess we can add the concept of a gender pay gap to the long list of things you don't quite grasp

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course that oppression has not ended. What a ludicrous thing to say. There absolutely is a gender pay gap, and it's huge.

You only have to look at the recent BBC revelations, the makeup of most boardrooms, most bosses, most business owners etc etc etc .

Of course there's a pay gap, there's a pay gap between me and bill gates, there's a pay gap between me and the average male that leaves university...

Pay gaps exist as part of capitalism.

I just happen to think the guy who spent years in university and came out with shed loads of debt for it happens to deserve more pay!

I guess we can add the concept of a gender pay gap to the long list of things you don't quite grasp"
.

No I agree theres a gender pay gap I just disagree there's a giant conspiracy amongst men to pay them less

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course that oppression has not ended. What a ludicrous thing to say. There absolutely is a gender pay gap, and it's huge.

You only have to look at the recent BBC revelations, the makeup of most boardrooms, most bosses, most business owners etc etc etc .

Of course there's a pay gap, there's a pay gap between me and bill gates, there's a pay gap between me and the average male that leaves university...

Pay gaps exist as part of capitalism.

I just happen to think the guy who spent years in university and came out with shed loads of debt for it happens to deserve more pay!

I guess we can add the concept of a gender pay gap to the long list of things you don't quite grasp.

No I agree theres a gender pay gap I just disagree there's a giant conspiracy amongst men to pay them less

Conspiracy implies secrecy, and it's not exactly a secret.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Who's behind these big secrets?

Laughable

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course that oppression has not ended. What a ludicrous thing to say. There absolutely is a gender pay gap, and it's huge.

You only have to look at the recent BBC revelations, the makeup of most boardrooms, most bosses, most business owners etc etc etc .

Of course there's a pay gap, there's a pay gap between me and bill gates, there's a pay gap between me and the average male that leaves university...

Pay gaps exist as part of capitalism.

I just happen to think the guy who spent years in university and came out with shed loads of debt for it happens to deserve more pay!

I guess we can add the concept of a gender pay gap to the long list of things you don't quite grasp"

Anyone who believes the headlines (a crude undiscerning unthinking lieing with statistics average designed to create disharmony) doesn't grasp things too well either.

But let's turn it around... How would you go about tearing down the remaining oppressive structures?

I hope you'll have enforced quotas for both bin men and ceo's in the interest of equality

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But let's turn it around... How would you go about tearing down the remaining oppressive structures?

Are you wasting my time by insisting that unless I have a complete solution to a multifaceted social problem, then I shouldn't be so rude as to mention that the problem exists?

Or is "let's turn this around" shorthand for "let's ask something inane"

I hope you'll have enforced quotas for both bin men and ceo's in the interest of equality

The sad part is you think that's clever.

Quotas make sense as a short term measure, if you have an area that is heavily male dominated despite the presence of women who are just as capable.

Of course, it's not an acceptable long term solution, as it doesn't address the underlying problem of the, frankly moronic, idea that some jobs are "men's work" or some are "women's work".

To use your asinine example, if someone wants to be a binman then their gender shouldn't be a factor in either wanting or doing that job.

Neither should it be in STEM fields, or teaching, or whatever.

How is this a difficult fucking concept?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course that oppression has not ended. What a ludicrous thing to say. There absolutely is a gender pay gap, and it's huge.

You only have to look at the recent BBC revelations, the makeup of most boardrooms, most bosses, most business owners etc etc etc .

Of course there's a pay gap, there's a pay gap between me and bill gates, there's a pay gap between me and the average male that leaves university...

Pay gaps exist as part of capitalism.

I just happen to think the guy who spent years in university and came out with shed loads of debt for it happens to deserve more pay!

I guess we can add the concept of a gender pay gap to the long list of things you don't quite grasp.

No I agree theres a gender pay gap I just disagree there's a giant conspiracy amongst men to pay them less

Conspiracy implies secrecy, and it's not exactly a secret."
.

Theres a gender pay gap but it's got very little to do with men conspiring to pay women less and more to do with the fact most women have different things in life they want from it..like children so there much more likely to work part time, take years off for children.

Even this is changing slowly though with some couples having a wife that earns far more than the husband and now are looking for the male half to do the years of child raising!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course that oppression has not ended. What a ludicrous thing to say. There absolutely is a gender pay gap, and it's huge.

You only have to look at the recent BBC revelations, the makeup of most boardrooms, most bosses, most business owners etc etc etc .

Of course there's a pay gap, there's a pay gap between me and bill gates, there's a pay gap between me and the average male that leaves university...

Pay gaps exist as part of capitalism.

I just happen to think the guy who spent years in university and came out with shed loads of debt for it happens to deserve more pay!

I guess we can add the concept of a gender pay gap to the long list of things you don't quite grasp.

No I agree theres a gender pay gap I just disagree there's a giant conspiracy amongst men to pay them less

Conspiracy implies secrecy, and it's not exactly a secret..

Not really.

It's more that women have different expectations placed on them by society, are judged differently, and that leads to women being undervalued in the workforce.

The "they want different things" explanation is a just-so story that glosses over the above with something a little more palatable.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Whats the point in hoghlighting problems that have no solution

Innane

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Whats the point in hoghlighting problems that have no solution

Innane"

Step one in any solution is identifying the problem.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm calling BS

Has this "good fight" not being going on for years... It's comical to be so vexed but not even know what you want.

You might talk about "we need more girls in stem" but as someone in that area I can tell you that there are scholarships and programmes and incentives galore to get more women involved and there has been for the last ten years.

Come on... At least try to be creative and hazard a guess at what you actual want to change or take place... Or is being angry and creating disharmony the goal?

This is the crux of the problem with the gender pay gap... You (feminists) are actively implanting this little "injustice" in the hearts and minds of girls and women when there is no clear or tangible solution to a problem which in your heart of hearts you know has about 5% to do with the dying remnants of oppressive structures and 95% to do with the choices individuals make within a more or less free (superficially... But that's another argument) society of which women make up 50%.

You act as if women have no involvement or agency in the fashioning of a society over the last 40 years....which supposedly acts against them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm calling BS

Has this "good fight" not being going on for years... It's comical to be so vexed but not even know what you want.

Come on... At least try to be creative and hazard a guess at what you actual want to change or take place... Or is being angry and creating disharmony the goal?

You act as if women have no involvement or agency in the fashioning of a society over the last 40 years....which supposedly acts against them.

"
One day women will have greater equality the only thing slowing progress is men bitching about it.Same goes for racial equality .The world keeps on changing faster than some can adapt .Some people and cultures as always need to catch up .Its much like evolution adapt or die.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

If you can't speak your mind for fear of being called a racist, it's because you are a racist, and have no place speaking your mind.

As plenty of racists still think they can speak their minds, If anything, political correctness has not gone far enough.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

" when there is no clear or tangible solution to a problem which in your heart of hearts you know has about 5% to do with the dying remnants of oppressive structures and 95% to do with the choices individuals make within a more or less free (superficially... But that's another argument) society of which women make up 50%.

You act as if women have no involvement or agency in the fashioning of a society over the last 40 years....which supposedly acts against them. "

'you know in your heart of hearts' - this is projection. Your world view depends on the assumption that men and women have these innate biological gender preferences that account for every difference we see. Not everyone shares this assumption. And science certainly hasn't shown it to be true.

'95% due to free choices' - hey, cool, a totally made up number! And I say that 95% of anti feminists are scared little boys who basically just don't like hearing women have opinions. I can't prove it, but it's fun to make stuff up!

'women are part of society so how can society oppress them' - Male suicide rates are scarily high? Well, men are part of a culture where men feel they have to be strong and can't ask for help. So I guess let's not try to address that problem. We wouldn't want to suggest that men don't have any agency.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm calling BS

Has this "good fight" not being going on for years... It's comical to be so vexed but not even know what you want.

Come on... At least try to be creative and hazard a guess at what you actual want to change or take place... Or is being angry and creating disharmony the goal?

You act as if women have no involvement or agency in the fashioning of a society over the last 40 years....which supposedly acts against them.

This "you don't know what you want, why are you even bothering" tangent you've latched onto is a fiction of your own creation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've three points here.

1. It has nothing go do with innate biological differences..No one mentioned that... You are just assuming about my assumptions! I'm talking about clear trends that are borne out in employment data (whatever the root cause is).

I get where you are coming from and understand your point on socialisation.. And that's what have I've been asking... You can't blame society and yet not have a clear vision of how and what to change.

2. This if you don't agree you are weak, little and scared angle can be turned around ten times over but I'm sure other people reading can see that so I won't bother. It is a clear example of gender war tactics (while violating principles of supposed equality)... Basically it is hypocritical and it's a ridiculous attempt to say that anyone who questions popular opinion doesn't believe women should have opinions (laughable)

3. Nobody is saying don't try... I'm just asking "what the hell do you actually want"? Changes? Policies? Laws? Direction for society?... And how to get there

This is a very specific question which you feministas can't seem to answer (but feel free to resort to trite character assassination as a get out clause)

Where is the vision and substance?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"for

This "you don't know what you want, why are you even bothering" tangent you've latched onto is a fiction of your own creation."

Heaven forbid that I asked a question (that I made up all on my own).

You could always try answer it and defend your point.

It's not why are you bothering... I'm concerned about the second and third order effects for society of a confused and highly influential movement that drums up so much emotion (a bit like brexit...just please please for the love of God define the problem first and show me a plan to fix it second)

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

I've three points here.

3. Nobody is saying don't try... I'm just asking "what the hell do you actually want"? Changes? Policies? Laws? Direction for society?... And how to get there

This is a very specific question which you feministas can't seem to answer (but feel free to resort to trite character assassination as a get out clause)

Where is the vision and substance?

1. Employment data does not prove anything other than what the status quo is. You seem to want to claim that there is virtually no cultural influence on why that employment data is the way it is. That implies that everyone is already doing what they should be doing according to their skills and talents and preferences. That no one is put off a career because of stereotypes, be they based on gender, race, sexual orientation, whatever. Fine, if you want to make that massively conservative assumptions. But it seems unlikely to me that we have somehow reached that point in society already and can now stop.

2 - 'gender war tactics' -

I was just having a little fun showing how one can make up numbers to push an unsubstantiated opinion. Try not being such a snowflake.

3 - dude, if you actually care about finding out what some feminist positions, arguments, and aims are then there are literally thousands of books, blogs, podcasts, documentaries, poems, movies, and any other forms of art you can dream up, that deal with this. Go read. Listen. Learn. Sitting on a swinging website forum bleating "but what do you waaant, feminists are all so mean, it's a gender war!" is completely pointless (unless you've already decided feminism is Evil and just want to confirm your own beliefs, in which case carry on, I guess)

And with that I'll take my own advice and drop out of this very silly conversation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

Rascists and homophobes don't like being called the consequences of their comments and position.

I rembember as a child seeing on tv a clip from an interview in the 1950s. It was of white trade unionists saying that blacks should not be allowed to work at the docks because their brains were not developed to handle the quick loading and unloading of goods. A genuinely held view but completely racist.

Nowadays just change the concept 'development of brains' to 'culture' in any debate.

Therefore just because you want to state your position does not stop it from being a prejudiced view.

In the last 30 years I have seen every permutation of racial prejudice. Twenty years ago I used to argue with friends that things will get better.

Now I don't, possibly due to the alleged lack of money in this country the public discourse has become so corroded, the stereotypes and caricatures so obvious. The lack of knowledge of social and imperial history is so deep. There are no bases for reasoned and intelligent discussion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The word "racist" no longer holds its ability to correct bad cultural practises, it's been so over used its lost its value as a punishment.

Its like peoples beliefs in authority have been slowly crumbled away to shit and now nobody gives a fuck either way.... I'm starting to seriously wonder if humans need a God concept just to keep them from being fuckwits

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"for

This "you don't know what you want, why are you even bothering" tangent you've latched onto is a fiction of your own creation.

Heaven forbid that I asked a question (that I made up all on my own).

You could always try answer it and defend your point.

You asked a question, designed only to stifle the conversation.

There is no value in laying out a comprehensive solution to complex social issue (as if that were even possible in the limited confines of an internet message board) to someone who denies that the problems exists in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The word "racist" no longer holds its ability to correct bad cultural practises, it's been so over used its lost its value as a punishment.

I would agree the word no longer prevents bad cultural practices but it is still seen as label to avoid.

The problem with God concepts is that they can reinforce bad cultural concepts. Slavery was justified because God allowed his favourites the Israelites to be led into slavery (as an example).

I know too many people who justify their adultery on temptation by the Devil or God understands my weakness.

My suggestions run into the political so I will leave it for another day.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The word "racist" no longer holds its ability to correct bad cultural practises, it's been so over used its lost its value as a punishment.

The visceral reaction that racists have to being called racists, to the point that you'd swear that labelling someone as a racist is a greater crime than the racism itself, would indicate you're wrong about that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The word "racist" no longer holds its ability to correct bad cultural practises, it's been so over used its lost its value as a punishment.

No I think identity politics works both ways and the left has used it to promote its ideas a little too much and now for a lot of younger white males they really don't care about being labelled racist... There identifying themselves as the new not needed class, that's where the alt right is feeding from and will continue to imo

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its like labelling everybody with a political view right of Tony Blair a Nazi, sure it makes leftists feel good but it's counter productive

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is the issue, people use generalised comments about the left wing. Racist statements fall across the whole political spectrum. It is just that anyone who holds anyone else accountable for their actions is labelled left wing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This is the issue, people use generalised comments about the left wing. Racist statements fall across the whole political spectrum. It is just that anyone who holds anyone else accountable for their actions is labelled left wing. "
.

No not really,i think in general the far left tends to be far less racist than the far right but that's only in western culture, the rest of the world is completely different.

Also lots of right wing people hold people accountable for all sorts of things but rarely racism, right wing philosophy is more about the individual whereas left wing is about the collective so it's just more apparent in one than the other but yes certainly not exclusive

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thank you, broadly I would not disagree with your analysis.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The word "racist" no longer holds its ability to correct bad cultural practises, it's been so over used its lost its value as a punishment.

If they didn't care then they wouldn't be screeching loudly that "actually, you're the real racist!" Every time someone points out they're garbage people.

I remain unconvinced that they "don't care", and most of them will eventually grow out of that useless teenage nihilism, especially as the alt-right rebranding exercise continues to lose its thin veneer of "totally not actually Nazis"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've three points here.

3. Nobody is saying don't try... I'm just asking "what the hell do you actually want"? Changes? Policies? Laws? Direction for society?... And how to get there

This is a very specific question which you feministas can't seem to answer (but feel free to resort to trite character assassination as a get out clause)

Where is the vision and substance?

2 - 'gender war tactics' -

I was just having a little fun showing how one can make up numbers to push an unsubstantiated opinion. Try not being such a snowflake.

And with that I'll take my own advice and drop out of this very silly conversation. "

On point number 1... I'm simply pointing out your error in assigning root cause to some patriarch nonsense when it's actually very complex (and impossible to solve) in reality.

Is everyone doing their dream job aligned with their talents... Fuck no.. But that's another debate.. You killed your own argument with that anyway.

You also make the error of assuming that people would be happier being paid more rather than self selecting their job and working arramgements (as they do currently, in most cases, depending on supply and demand and employment squeezes obviously)

On point 3... I'll apply the heuristic that if you can't succinctly state your point that you don't have one.

You want me to go off and inhale a load of multifaceted hyperbole, that just shows how confused and disjointed feminist causes are if you can't even summarise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"for

This "you don't know what you want, why are you even bothering" tangent you've latched onto is a fiction of your own creation.

Heaven forbid that I asked a question (that I made up all on my own).

You could always try answer it and defend your point.

You asked a question, designed only to stifle the conversation.

The question was designed to stiffle your argument.. Not the conversation. Again I'll invite you to try answer it... I know you can't and that's the point.

BECAUSE it IS a complex social issue... And not necessarily even a problem (this is bait for you...can you open your mind and imagine that not everyone cares about money when choosing a career)...

I'm showing how the likes of you try to pin the blame on a mythical patriarchy who are just trying to keep women down when as you said it is much more complex

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You believe the problem is "impossible to solve" - so, what is the benefit of indulging your question?

Regardless of the answer you receive, you've already decided it would be wrong, because how do you solve the unsolvable?

And thus, your little ruse has run its course.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm relying on the sage wisdom of feminist academics to show us the light

You still can't answer it... Proving my point

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By *tew008Man
over a year ago

edinburgh

Some people will take it too far as with anything. I normally ask that they provide some reasoning for it. As I will if someone calls me out.

People should be able say what they think and discuss. In an ideal world anyway.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm relying on the sage wisdom of feminist academics to show us the light

You still can't answer it... Proving my point

A long time ago you once claimed the post that began this was "riddled with logical errors" and here we are now, with you steadfastly insisting that unless you receive a comprehensive answer to a problem you cannot conceive of having a solution, then you're vindicated.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You don't really get it, do you?

We're in a debate, if you agree that there's no solution then you have proven my point.

It's up to you to refute it... But you've already told us it's far too complex...(this is exactly my point about impotent feminism naively trying to intervene with all this "we need", "we need", "we need".." "patriarchy" this.."oppression" that and nobody asking why or how?)

Now give up your meta arguments and either answer the question or not...

WHAT CAN BE DONE?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

steadfastly insisting that unless you receive a comprehensive answer to a problem you cannot conceive of having a solution, then you're vindicated."

Again a logical error.

It's precisely because it can't be answered (while maintaining your oppression narrative) that I'm asking it... Rhetorically.

I'm giving you a brick wall to smash your own argument against.

It's now up to you to be smarter and navigate around the wall or through a crack.

I'll be invoking the don't argue with fools rule if you can't see your own mistake here

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You don't really get it, do you?

We're in a debate, if you agree that there's no solution then you have proven my point.

Now give up your meta arguments and either answer the question or not...

WHAT CAN BE DONE? "

That you can't fathom that a problem can be solved is simply a failure of imagination on your part.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

More so on your part seeing as you can't even hint at it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If Equality is the impossible dream.Then we need more dreamers.Problem solved

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"More so on your part seeing as you can't even hint at it

Why would I bother though?

In order to have any kind of a conversation all parties need to agree on, and understand, fundamental concepts to the conversation.

As long as you deny the problem exists, talking about solutions is a waste of time.

As, apparently, is repeating this base truth to you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If Equality is the impossible dream.Then we need more dreamers.Problem solved

Disagree here.

All humans should be equal in their rights.

But not all humans are equal psychologically or biologically

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By *eavenscentitCouple
over a year ago

barnstaple

I am a feminist, I love men. I don't like men who hate women. There are alot about

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By *eavenscentitCouple
over a year ago

barnstaple

I also doubt a 13yr old boy has had grown adult women shouting sexulaised shit at them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If Equality is the impossible dream.Then we need more dreamers.Problem solved

Disagree here.

All humans should be equal in their rights.

But not all humans are equal psychologically or biologically"
Very few of us attain perfection. I'm never going to run as fast as Usain bolt or be as clever as Einstein.

Equality is equal opportunity for all and that opportunity has to be at the begining of everything . Its then upto you,what you do with that opportunity.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"More so on your part seeing as you can't even hint at it

Why would I bother though?

In order to have any kind of a conversation all parties need to agree on, and understand, fundamental concepts to the conversation.

As long as you deny the problem exists, talking about solutions is a waste of time.

As, apparently, is repeating this base truth to you. "

It's called an argument. I think one thing, you think the other and we makes points in each direction with the aim of convincing the other party and more so the audience.

Fool rule now invoked... Good luck!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For the record... There IS a difference in the AVERAGE pay for men and women. We fundamentally agree... Just not on the cause (or the need to jump up and down about it)

Ciao

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am a feminist, I love men. I don't like men who hate women. There are alot about"
.

There really isn't, there's a few that have the hump with them due to "life problems" but in reality the amount of men that hate women because their women is in the 0.01% range, biologically were programmed to want women, very few people want something they hate?.

Feminism is about female solidarity because they know who really hates women and that's women, their biologically programmed to be in competition with each other and this manifests itself as "hate" in modern society.

That's the way I see it anyhoo

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the real reason feminists hate men is they see them as the driver of female competition, remove men from society and somehow female solidarity will flourish?.

I mean I think it's nonsense and there'll just find something else to be competitive over as that is the nature humans

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Equality is equal opportunity for all and that opportunity has to be at the begining of everything . Its then upto you,what you do with that opportunity."

This is the crux... How much inequality of opportunity do you think is attributable to class division worldwide relative to sexism?

I use this as an indicator of what is worth fighting for/caring about... It nullifies the plight of the typical oppressed guardian reader

(we've veered way off topic but so be it)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"For the record... There IS a difference in the AVERAGE pay for men and women. We fundamentally agree... Just not on the cause (or the need to jump up and down about it)

Ciao"

If you believe that there's no need to "jump up and down about it" would you be willing to take a paycut so that you would be on par with women in your field?

I doubt it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am a feminist, I love men. I don't like men who hate women. There are alot about.

That's the way I see it anyhoo

Biological programmed?

What absolute fucking balls.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"For the record... There IS a difference in the AVERAGE pay for men and women. We fundamentally agree... Just not on the cause (or the need to jump up and down about it)

Ciao

If you believe that there's no need to "jump up and down about it" would you be willing to take a paycut so that you would be on par with women in your field?

I doubt it. "

The women I work with at the same level get paid the same as me by law and by compamy policy. My boss and her boss are both women and earn more than me.

Anyway until you come up with something half intelligible I'm ignoring your nonsense

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am a feminist, I love men. I don't like men who hate women. There are alot about.

That's the way I see it anyhoo

Biological programmed?

What absolute fucking balls."
.

It's genetics, your in competition with your own sex not the opposite sex!.

If anything males should hate males and often do, the only difference with males is there's a clear alpha structure that we can adhere to still, whereas females are lost without male dominance over them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am a feminist, I love men. I don't like men who hate women. There are alot about.

That's the way I see it anyhoo

Biological programmed?

What absolute fucking balls..

It's genetics, your in competition with your own sex not the opposite sex!.

That's evo psych grade nonsense.

There's no reason to start spinning this "oh well, that's just genetics" fairytale to explain away the this is all learned behavior.

Expectations of correct behavior are taught and enforced by the society that people are in, not by some handwavey nonsense about it being genetic.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"For the record... There IS a difference in the AVERAGE pay for men and women. We fundamentally agree... Just not on the cause (or the need to jump up and down about it)

Ciao

If you believe that there's no need to "jump up and down about it" would you be willing to take a paycut so that you would be on par with women in your field?

I doubt it.

The women I work with at the same level get paid the same as me by law and by compamy policy. My boss and her boss are both women and earn more than me.

Anyway until you come up with something half intelligible I'm ignoring your nonsense "

I said women in your field, not what you imagine your peers are paid.

If you, as you say, believe that there is a pay difference, but also believe it's not worth "shouting about" then why aren't you willing to take this pay cut?

It's not worth complaining about, right? Isn't that what you've been 'arguing'?

Step up then.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm gobsmacked by your inability to reason.

You've shown that you don't even know what an average is with that silly extrapolation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am a feminist, I love men. I don't like men who hate women. There are alot about.

That's the way I see it anyhoo

Biological programmed?

What absolute fucking balls..

It's genetics, your in competition with your own sex not the opposite sex!.

That's evo psych grade nonsense.

There's no reason to start spinning this "oh well, that's just genetics" fairytale to explain away the this is all learned behavior.

Expectations of correct behavior are taught and enforced by the society that people are in, not by some handwavey nonsense about it being genetic."
.

Taught? By whom, you realise the vast majority of children are taught by women! Especially in the formative years

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An all nurture zero nature stance is an extreme position to take in the face of modern science eh

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But but but "WE NEEEEEED"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In the nature versus nurture argument .Culture plays a key role.Men and women and their rights and roles vary accross cultures.

Culture adapts and morphs though time and values and opinions change.The direction we've been heading towards for sometime has been greater equality.I really dont think any culture has achieved equality for all.We've only just begun on this road.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the nature versus nurture argument .Culture plays a key role.Men and women and their rights and roles vary accross cultures.

"
.

I'm all for equality of opportunity, I just don't believe in this giant conspiracy of men holding women back because there women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the nature versus nurture argument .Culture plays a key role.Men and women and their rights and roles vary accross cultures.

Bob I think you are a lot smarter than the others here beating the same drum.

Where do you think the road leads to? Do you have a vague map.

I agree to a point but with a good pinch of be careful what you wish for

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the nature versus nurture argument .Culture plays a key role.Men and women and their rights and roles vary accross cultures.

I'm all for equality of opportunity, I just don't believe in this giant conspiracy of men holding women back because there women."
There is no active conspiracy but there is culture that suffers from inequality .We can all agree we live with inequality here.We arent living in sone utopian society.So therfore change is required.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes Bob but crucially does economic inequality not outweigh (the dying remnants) of gender inequality (in the uk) ten fold?

My original point here was that feminism has been overboiled in parts and rights have been stripped from men (custody law USA style as the example)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the nature versus nurture argument .Culture plays a key role.Men and women and their rights and roles vary accross cultures.

I'm all for equality of opportunity, I just don't believe in this giant conspiracy of men holding women back because there women. There is no active conspiracy but there is culture that suffers from inequality .We can all agree we live with inequality here.We arent living in sone utopian society.So therfore change is required."
.

Inequality will always be part of society and human nature... But equality of opportunity is a reality.

utopia had slaves,I don't think utopia should be held up so much as a workable objective

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes of course there are greater inequalities than gender economic inequality in the UK.Its still an inequality though and a greater problem elsewhere in the world than here.i dont believe its been solved anywhere.Equal opportunity has to begin at birth.Our education system and culture doesnt create an equal society as of yet.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you not think there is too much fuss made about it?

Go to any European capital and many many young girls are wearing some form of feminist slogan on their t shirt. It's a trend.

A grand distraction in the face of bigger problems. Media manufactured vexation

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Our education system and culture doesnt create an equal society as of yet."

I haven't heard any practical ideas about how to create a more equal society from anyone here.

If you want equality... Provide financial education so people aren't prey to lotteries and scratch cards and pay day loans on one end or being a tantalised class sucker on the other.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What change has this popularity in feminism created. ? What are the negatives ? Im fine with girls wearing T shirts.Isn't that about awareness of inequality.

I dont feel downtrodden by a rise in feminism.Like you say there are greater inqualities to be addressed like the wealth divide.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Very simply because creating unnecessary anger and a sense of victimisation in any group never ends well

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't feel downtrodden either but I'm sensing the winds of change... Im afraid of the counter attacks from the weaker men who will lose out.

Look at that white supremacist shit as an analogue

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm gobsmacked by your inability to reason.

You've shown that you don't even know what an average is with that silly extrapolation.

I know that you're perfectly willing to allow for inequality to exist, as long as it doesn't impact on you.

I'll never tire of people who aren't affected by something deciding that it's not worth complaining about it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am a feminist, I love men. I don't like men who hate women. There are alot about.

That's the way I see it anyhoo

Biological programmed?

What absolute fucking balls..

It's genetics, your in competition with your own sex not the opposite sex!.

That's evo psych grade nonsense.

There's no reason to start spinning this "oh well, that's just genetics" fairytale to explain away the this is all learned behavior.

Expectations of correct behavior are taught and enforced by the society that people are in, not by some handwavey nonsense about it being genetic..

Taught? By whom, you realise the vast majority of children are taught by women! Especially in the formative years"

It's not a formal class, children learn from observing the world around them, and their peers and elders, and from the media they consume.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And we are back to square one...Yawn......

Where does society come from? Are half of the participants not women? Do they not have free will? Do they laws of the land not already support them?

What change are you trying to create? What is the mechanism of change? How do you know it will work?

I want us all to ignore the 2017 woe is me 1 percenter (globally) euro/us feminist in favour of bigger and better causes.

You want us to join some snowflake in ineffectual whinging that she isn't paid well enough for her gender studies blog or that someone looked at her arse or that some lad opened his legs wider than permitted on the tube

Also I'm laughing at "I'll never tire" ....logic really isn't your strength...just read that sentence back to yourself a few times

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm gobsmacked by your inability to reason.

You've shown that you don't even know what an average is with that silly extrapolation.

I know that you're perfectly willing to allow for inequality to exist, as long as it doesn't impact on you.

I'll never tire of people who aren't affected by something deciding that it's not worth complaining about it."

I'll throw you a bone...

For the sake of argument, lets say I have a twin sister and we are very alike and made the same life choices.

How is she worse off than me?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If I were naive enough to have the lofty ambition of completely reprogramming society I think I'd get more bang for my buck if I desocialised people out of nationalism, religion, brand worship, junk food and smoking.

Imagine all the lives you could save wih no wars, obesity or lung cancer and more money to go round to sweeten things for all.

Closing a (mostly fictional) 10 per cent gap is just lacking in ambition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And we are back to square one...Yawn......

Where does society come from? Are half of the participants not women? Do they not have free will? Do they laws of the land not already support them?

What change are you trying to create? What is the mechanism of change? How do you know it will work?

I want us all to ignore the 2017 woe is me 1 percenter (globally) euro/us feminist in favour of bigger and better causes.

Also I'm laughing at "I'll never tire" ....logic really isn't your strength...just read that sentence back to yourself a few times

You seem to be under the weird assumption that because laws exist prohibiting something, then that is no longer an issue.

And that we are only capable of one venture at a time, so we must choose between equality in society and other causes.

Finally, you are demanding solutions to a problem that you don't believe is real because you don't believe it affects you.

So, you're not really in a position to start crowing about how clever you think you are.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh why do I bother. Back to the anti-fool rule.

This is old ground, there is a gap, 100% true. We agree on that...well you don't know what average means but yeah there's a gap to simplify things for you.

I just don't believe it be nefarious and that is the by product of (mostly) free choice in a free market.

(deep deep social constructs aside....good luck getting more men into day care and more women into refuse collection)

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