Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Politics |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"For a second I thought you were going to say Dyson intended to invest in a manufacturing plant and repatriate the 800 jobs he exported to Malaysia" Would agree that him doing so would be good news, we stopped buying his products when he took jobs away.. Still good news though.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"For a second I thought you were going to say Dyson intended to invest in a manufacturing plant and repatriate the 800 jobs he exported to Malaysia" as I said ("back to remainers "Doom & Gloom) | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As I've always said, let the post Brexit UK concentrate, focus on and lead the world on things that we are good at and what the rest of the world wants and needs. We will never compete with Asia on low price manufacturing but even that gap is getting smaller." As long as we don't start using child labour.... I see Apple have now stopped using Cobalt from such a mine in China where children are used and paid 8p a day. They have, however, only done this after they were exposed in the press. This kind of thing is common practice in China...... maybe it's time ALL companies and consumers started to boycott the cheap (and usually sub-standard) products etc coming out of China. And that's without going down the human rights route. Time China was hit in the pocket! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As I've always said, let the post Brexit UK concentrate, focus on and lead the world on things that we are good at and what the rest of the world wants and needs. We will never compete with Asia on low price manufacturing but even that gap is getting smaller." Agreed. I didn't back Brexit, but if people are to make it work they need to realise there is no point in looking at traditional manufacturing. No form of brexit will get those jobs back sadly - they will continue to disapear. People need to wake up and realise that if britain is to make britain a success via brexit, we need to move towards research, innovation and a tech based economy. That is what we are currently good at, and the younger members of society will be good at. That said some brexiteers need to stop acting like any positive brexit news is heralding plain sailing and a return of mass industry. We haven't even left yet and the real direction and reality of post brexit britain will begin to show between 3-10 years time. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"For a second I thought you were going to say Dyson intended to invest in a manufacturing plant and repatriate the 800 jobs he exported to Malaysia" So the R and D will be done here... but the actual manufacturing will be done overseas..... yep Sounds like mr dyson is using the best of both worlds to gain max profit for him....... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"For a second I thought you were going to say Dyson intended to invest in a manufacturing plant and repatriate the 800 jobs he exported to Malaysia So the R and D will be done here... but the actual manufacturing will be done overseas..... yep Sounds like mr dyson is using the best of both worlds to gain max profit for him....... " Exactly . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Dyson is to begin work on a new multimillion-pound research and development centre in a move described by the Prime Minister as a "vote of confidence" in the UK. . The vacuum cleaner and electronics maker, run by billionaire inventor Sir James Dyson, will begin work on a new campus at a 517-acre former airfield in Hullavington, Wiltshire. . Sir James, who backed the Brexit vote, said: "After 25 years of UK growth, and continuing expansion globally, we are fast outgrowing our Malmesbury Campus. "The 517-acre Hullavington Campus is an investment for our future, creating a global hub for our research and development endeavours. . now, back to remainers doom & gloom" But let's look at the data, the majority of people who voted to Leave are older and less likely to have a degree. They want the return of manufacturing jobs, this won't help them at all, those jobs are in Malaysia. The Remain voters are generally the younger ones with degrees, they are the type of people who are going to get the high paying, graduate level R&D jobs. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Dyson is to begin work on a new multimillion-pound research and development centre in a move described by the Prime Minister as a "vote of confidence" in the UK. . The vacuum cleaner and electronics maker, run by billionaire inventor Sir James Dyson, will begin work on a new campus at a 517-acre former airfield in Hullavington, Wiltshire. . Sir James, who backed the Brexit vote, said: "After 25 years of UK growth, and continuing expansion globally, we are fast outgrowing our Malmesbury Campus. "The 517-acre Hullavington Campus is an investment for our future, creating a global hub for our research and development endeavours. . now, back to remainers doom & gloom" Just to make the news even better a Chinese Investor is buying the Leadenham building in London for £1 billion and both Expedia and the engineering group Arup have outlined expansion plans in the EU. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"For a second I thought you were going to say Dyson intended to invest in a manufacturing plant and repatriate the 800 jobs he exported to Malaysia" So did I... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain." That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain. That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . " Correct, and local to me, McLaren cars are opening a Manufacturing plant, employing 200 skilled people, to build vehicles bodies previously outsourced to Austria. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain. That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . " Really? So yet another multinational comes here exploits our inventiveness to think up new products, our scientific and engineering skills to develop those products and promptly exports the knowledge and the jobs and profits that go with manufacturing whatever we have invented, designed and engineered. Not my definition of a good news story. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain. That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . " They are, but are the people who voted Leave and the people getting left behind by globalisation the type of people who are going to get these jobs? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain. That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . They are, but are the people who voted Leave and the people getting left behind by globalisation the type of people who are going to get these jobs? " What point are you trying to make? Globalisation was happening and will continue to happen. The comments were that there is continued investment in our great engineering talent. If the outcome had been remain, would those 'left behind' be in a better position in terms of globalisation? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain. That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . They are, but are the people who voted Leave and the people getting left behind by globalisation the type of people who are going to get these jobs? What point are you trying to make? Globalisation was happening and will continue to happen. The comments were that there is continued investment in our great engineering talent. If the outcome had been remain, would those 'left behind' be in a better position in terms of globalisation?" Yes, far better! At the moment we have free trade with generally similarly developed economies, outside the EU if we start having free trade deals with similiar economies like Australia, U.S., Canada etc, great. The problems however are when we start doing FTA with countries like China and India etc which are not fully developed economies. That is going to be when it really hits hard on people working in industries like Steel for example. Don't fool yourself into thinking that China is going to start opening factories in the UK or buying British steel. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain. That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . They are, but are the people who voted Leave and the people getting left behind by globalisation the type of people who are going to get these jobs? " Most consumers expect the products that they purchase to be price competitive . How many consumers would be prepared to pay an extra £50 for a vacuum cleaner just to ensure that it was manufactured in the UK. We are competing in a World Market . If advances in automation continue it may be feasible to return assembly to the UK.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Dyson is to begin work on a new multimillion-pound research and development centre in a move described by the Prime Minister as a "vote of confidence" in the UK. . The vacuum cleaner and electronics maker, run by billionaire inventor Sir James Dyson, will begin work on a new campus at a 517-acre former airfield in Hullavington, Wiltshire. . Sir James, who backed the Brexit vote, said: "After 25 years of UK growth, and continuing expansion globally, we are fast outgrowing our Malmesbury Campus. "The 517-acre Hullavington Campus is an investment for our future, creating a global hub for our research and development endeavours. . now, back to remainers doom & gloom But let's look at the data, the majority of people who voted to Leave are older and less likely to have a degree. They want the return of manufacturing jobs, this won't help them at all, those jobs are in Malaysia. The Remain voters are generally the younger ones with degrees, they are the type of people who are going to get the high paying, graduate level R&D jobs." interesting. i see it more people who pay for degrees the more people who are in low paid jobs with a degree. i honestly think only so many well paid degree based jobs for people to get and the proper apprenticeship route is now costing us as we have little skilled workers with real hands on experience as they wasted years getting a degree rather than a trade. so many people i know got degrees and know happy on 50-60k year in Manchester which is good wage if you happy working for others. then look at people who went the trade route and set up on own once they could and they spend that on cars a year. guess saying degrees are something that have got out of control and lots of employers only go for top marks from top unis which is no fun when your pay to play comes to an end and you can not get a job | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" What point are you trying to make? Globalisation was happening and will continue to happen. The comments were that there is continued investment in our great engineering talent. If the outcome had been remain, would those 'left behind' be in a better position in terms of globalisation? Yes, far better! At the moment we have free trade with generally similarly developed economies, outside the EU if we start having free trade deals with similiar economies like Australia, U.S., Canada etc, great. The problems however are when we start doing FTA with countries like China and India etc which are not fully developed economies. That is going to be when it really hits hard on people working in industries like Steel for example. Don't fool yourself into thinking that China is going to start opening factories in the UK or buying British steel." That situation exists now. Maybe you've noticed the 'made in China' wording on one or two items?? Why not for once, see the positive news in something, rather than scrabbling to make it negative? New R+D site creating hundreds of well paid, skilled jobs = good news. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain. That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . They are, but are the people who voted Leave and the people getting left behind by globalisation the type of people who are going to get these jobs? Most consumers expect the products that they purchase to be price competitive . How many consumers would be prepared to pay an extra £50 for a vacuum cleaner just to ensure that it was manufactured in the UK. We are competing in a World Market . If advances in automation continue it may be feasible to return assembly to the UK.." Correct, although the true cost is nearer double. The USA will find this out. It's ok saying "American Jobs" but when the consumer is faced with a choice of a $1000 American fridge or a $500 Asian made one, then I'm afraid that's when a harsh reality check comes in. And don't forget, it's not just the UK that outsources jobs. A lot of IKEA stuff is now made in China. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" What point are you trying to make? Globalisation was happening and will continue to happen. The comments were that there is continued investment in our great engineering talent. If the outcome had been remain, would those 'left behind' be in a better position in terms of globalisation? Yes, far better! At the moment we have free trade with generally similarly developed economies, outside the EU if we start having free trade deals with similiar economies like Australia, U.S., Canada etc, great. The problems however are when we start doing FTA with countries like China and India etc which are not fully developed economies. That is going to be when it really hits hard on people working in industries like Steel for example. Don't fool yourself into thinking that China is going to start opening factories in the UK or buying British steel. That situation exists now. Maybe you've noticed the 'made in China' wording on one or two items?? Why not for once, see the positive news in something, rather than scrabbling to make it negative? New R+D site creating hundreds of well paid, skilled jobs = good news." I know that situation exists, and that's why people are pissed off. I did say that it was good news, but it's good news for well educated people who will get R&D jobs, not for people who are looking for manufacturing jobs, the kind of people who voted to Leave. Do you think there will be more or less things stamped with "made in China" if we have a FTA with them? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" New R+D site creating hundreds of well paid, skilled jobs = good news. I know that situation exists, and that's why people are pissed off. I did say that it was good news, but it's good news for well educated people who will get R&D jobs, not for people who are looking for manufacturing jobs, the kind of people who voted to Leave. Do you think there will be more or less things stamped with "made in China" if we have a FTA with them? " I don't support a complete FTA with China or India. The R+D plant benefits others through increased spending by those employed there. But, as I said in my first comment, I don't think this is a Brexit story, it is just good news. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" What point are you trying to make? Globalisation was happening and will continue to happen. The comments were that there is continued investment in our great engineering talent. If the outcome had been remain, would those 'left behind' be in a better position in terms of globalisation? Yes, far better! At the moment we have free trade with generally similarly developed economies, outside the EU if we start having free trade deals with similiar economies like Australia, U.S., Canada etc, great. The problems however are when we start doing FTA with countries like China and India etc which are not fully developed economies. That is going to be when it really hits hard on people working in industries like Steel for example. Don't fool yourself into thinking that China is going to start opening factories in the UK or buying British steel. That situation exists now. Maybe you've noticed the 'made in China' wording on one or two items?? Why not for once, see the positive news in something, rather than scrabbling to make it negative? New R+D site creating hundreds of well paid, skilled jobs = good news. I know that situation exists, and that's why people are pissed off. I did say that it was good news, but it's good news for well educated people who will get R&D jobs, not for people who are looking for manufacturing jobs, the kind of people who voted to Leave. Do you think there will be more or less things stamped with "made in China" if we have a FTA with them? " how do you know the kind of people who voted to leave? When it was said on another thread yesterday that the young didn't bother to vote because they weren't bothered whether we stayed in the EU or not it was argued that there was no way of knowing who voted. Or are you now going to say that the young didn't vote in the same numbers as the older generations? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is a positive story but as stated manufacturing is elsewhere which is such a poor reflection on a morale stance! Having said that they are all doing it. Cafe Nero ( whom I will now boycott) made £25m profit in UK and paid no tax. They should have paid £5m - it could have helped NHS or social welfare. But then Amazon, Google, EBay & Facebook all in the same boat. The poor guy on PAYE has no choice. In the 1970's there was a theme "I'm backing Britain " - buy British, unfortunately we don't make that much now but we could boycott companies who don't pay tax?" Absolutely. I try and buy as independent and local as possible. I used to go into crowded Starbucks and shout "pay your taxes". I suppose it didn't do much but being rebellious in your 50s sure does feel good sometimes,!  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The doom mongers don't seem to understand that manufacturing has to start somewhere with small beginnings. Most people in this country work in small businesses. The engineers etc who go to work and be trained at these places could go on to be the entrepreneurs/manufacturers/employers of the future. Think positive" the point being made was that the original manufacturing of the products were made in the UK before dyson decided to move them to malaysia........  those are job he decided to move elsewhere....
someone a bit further made a point that has been missed as we go along.... people who think manufacturing jobs are coming back are somewhat deluded because those manufacturing jobs are going to robots....
so as others have said to categorise it as a brexit story is misleading at best.... but heck some people here really like to manipulate a story to suit a narrative.... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The doom mongers don't seem to understand that manufacturing has to start somewhere with small beginnings. Most people in this country work in small businesses. The engineers etc who go to work and be trained at these places could go on to be the entrepreneurs/manufacturers/employers of the future. Think positive the point being made was that the original manufacturing of the products were made in the UK before dyson decided to move them to malaysia........ those are job he decided to move elsewhere....
someone a bit further made a point that has been missed as we go along.... people who think manufacturing jobs are coming back are somewhat deluded because those manufacturing jobs are going to robots....
so as others have said to categorise it as a brexit story is misleading at best.... but heck some people here really like to manipulate a story to suit a narrative...."What about the people like me that make the robots, associated tooling and automation? Don't write me off just yet!  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" someone a bit further made a point that has been missed as we go along.... people who think manufacturing jobs are coming back are somewhat deluded because those manufacturing jobs are going to robots.... so as others have said to categorise it as a brexit story is misleading at best.... but heck some people here really like to manipulate a story to suit a narrative.... What about the people like me that make the robots, associated tooling and automation? Don't write me off just yet! "If a product is very labour intensive, it is going to have a tendency to go to the far east, or the next low cost location. The more automated a job becomes the better equipped we are in the uk to be able to compete with low cost manufacturing locations. If you have 10 people on £40k a year operating a high speed automated production, they are competitive against 100 people on £4k per year doing it by hand. Our skills and methods evolve. It's when we stop investing in those people and skills that problems set in. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Manufacturing jobs the ons that voted to leave wot a wanker can't stand tossers like u mate so u know who voted wot do u lol" And who is that comment aimed at? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The doom mongers don't seem to understand that manufacturing has to start somewhere with small beginnings. Most people in this country work in small businesses. The engineers etc who go to work and be trained at these places could go on to be the entrepreneurs/manufacturers/employers of the future. Think positive"  I think manufacturing will start to become a growth area here again from the manufacguring base we already have because of the drop in the value of the pound it has now made UK made products much more competitive on the global markets. UK exports have already started to increase since the Brexit vote last June and UK is predicted to be the fastest growing economy this year in the G7. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As I've always said, let the post Brexit UK concentrate, focus on and lead the world on things that we are good at and what the rest of the world wants and needs. We will never compete with Asia on low price manufacturing but even that gap is getting smaller." Numatic manufacture vacuum cleaners from a site in Somerset employing 800 people, export 50% of production and in 2015 added 25% to their facility. If a company selling hoovers at £100 ish can thrive with UK production costs then why can't Dyson with his £250+ hoovers? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The doom mongers don't seem to understand that manufacturing has to start somewhere with small beginnings. Most people in this country work in small businesses. The engineers etc who go to work and be trained at these places could go on to be the entrepreneurs/manufacturers/employers of the future. Think positive I think manufacturing will start to become a growth area here again from the manufacguring base we already have because of the drop in the value of the pound it has now made UK made products much more competitive on the global markets. UK exports have already started to increase since the Brexit vote last June and UK is predicted to be the fastest growing economy this year in the G7. "Uk exports should do better and it should boost manufacturing. It is one of the benefits of Brexit. It's still very much a cloud and silver lining effect though. Re-balancing the economy is going to be a good thing, but it is going to be brutal. That's what you get when pursuing short term right wing policies of greed for too long. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! " Sorry, but you don't know why all companies offshore manufacturing. Dyson probably did it to boost his profits, many others do it to remain competitive or in business at all. I've worked in companies in the past where they offshored some manufacturing to stay alive . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As I've always said, let the post Brexit UK concentrate, focus on and lead the world on things that we are good at and what the rest of the world wants and needs. We will never compete with Asia on low price manufacturing but even that gap is getting smaller. Numatic manufacture vacuum cleaners from a site in Somerset employing 800 people, export 50% of production and in 2015 added 25% to their facility. If a company selling hoovers at £100 ish can thrive with UK production costs then why can't Dyson with his £250+ hoovers?" However I think Dyson is a premium product using the latest technology . I own both but it is a bit like comparing chalk with cheese . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! " However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . " Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs." There was a sensible discussion happening. What basis will there be an additional flood of cheap goods? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. There was a sensible discussion happening. What basis will there be an additional flood of cheap goods?" If have a FTA deal with places like India and China, there won't be tariffs, no tariffs means things are cheaper. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs." so Brexit will be a success then? Otherwise how will we pay for these goods flooding in? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. so Brexit will be a success then? Otherwise how will we pay for these goods flooding in?" Your definition of a success is jobs going to another country is it? 
How does buying cheap goods from other countries equal us being rich? If we have a rise in unemployment that won't be good for the country. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. so Brexit will be a success then? Otherwise how will we pay for these goods flooding in? Your definition of a success is jobs going to another country is it?
How does buying cheap goods from other countries equal us being rich? If we have a rise in unemployment that won't be good for the country."how will we be able to buy goods? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs." millions of jobs will be lost due to robotics ! You said yourself on another thread yet you still persist with the "we need migrants to pay our pensions " No we don't we need investment , education and redistribution of wealth | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. millions of jobs will be lost due to robotics ! You said yourself on another thread yet you still persist with the "we need migrants to pay our pensions " No we don't we need investment , education and redistribution of wealth " Robots don't pay taxes, immigrants do. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. so Brexit will be a success then? Otherwise how will we pay for these goods flooding in? Your definition of a success is jobs going to another country is it?
How does buying cheap goods from other countries equal us being rich? If we have a rise in unemployment that won't be good for the country.
how will we be able to buy goods?"Even people on benefits buy stuff.  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" There was a sensible discussion happening. What basis will there be an additional flood of cheap goods? If have a FTA deal with places like India and China, there won't be tariffs, no tariffs means things are cheaper. " Ok, a few points. We don't know the basis of any of these potential trade deals, if they will be zero tariff on all commodities or some. Even if they were, it would reduce the cost of imports by the import duty rate, averaging less than 5%. As you've acknowledged we already have lots of chinese goods here. There is only any point in a deal that is advantageous to both countries. So, we will gain by selling them cars, JCBs, jet engines etc. etc. Personally I wouldnt be in favour of a full Free Trade deal with those two countries. But that will be in our elected governments power to decide. Since it can't be concluded in the next 2 years you can vote for the party that has the best international trade policy suggestions for the 2020 election. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. so Brexit will be a success then? Otherwise how will we pay for these goods flooding in? Your definition of a success is jobs going to another country is it?
How does buying cheap goods from other countries equal us being rich? If we have a rise in unemployment that won't be good for the country.
how will we be able to buy goods?
Even people on benefits buy stuff. "where are the benefits going to come from? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Robots don't pay taxes, immigrants do. " What an odd comment. Companies using modern manufacturing techniques and employing a highly skilled workforce, generates profits, pay high wages and all pay tax. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" There was a sensible discussion happening. What basis will there be an additional flood of cheap goods? If have a FTA deal with places like India and China, there won't be tariffs, no tariffs means things are cheaper. Ok, a few points. We don't know the basis of any of these potential trade deals, if they will be zero tariff on all commodities or some. Even if they were, it would reduce the cost of imports by the import duty rate, averaging less than 5%. As you've acknowledged we already have lots of chinese goods here. There is only any point in a deal that is advantageous to both countries. So, we will gain by selling them cars, JCBs, jet engines etc. etc. Personally I wouldnt be in favour of a full Free Trade deal with those two countries. But that will be in our elected governments power to decide. Since it can't be concluded in the next 2 years you can vote for the party that has the best international trade policy suggestions for the 2020 election." Why wouldn't you be in favour of FTA with those countries? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Robots don't pay taxes, immigrants do. What an odd comment. Companies using modern manufacturing techniques and employing a highly skilled workforce, generates profits, pay high wages and all pay tax." An odd comment? You think that robots pay taxes?
Why do companies automate processes? Because they have an innate interest in robots, or to reduce costs/increase productivity? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs." I'll say it again. If cheap goods FLOOD in then that means we've got the money to buy them doesn't it? How much cheaper do you think things can get? Don't shopkeepers have a say in the price and profits? Or maybe we'll be skint and they won't FLOOD in? Which is it? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Ok, a few points. We don't know the basis of any of these potential trade deals, if they will be zero tariff on all commodities or some. Even if they were, it would reduce the cost of imports by the import duty rate, averaging less than 5%. As you've acknowledged we already have lots of chinese goods here. There is only any point in a deal that is advantageous to both countries. So, we will gain by selling them cars, JCBs, jet engines etc. etc. Personally I wouldnt be in favour of a full Free Trade deal with those two countries. But that will be in our elected governments power to decide. Since it can't be concluded in the next 2 years you can vote for the party that has the best international trade policy suggestions for the 2020 election. Why wouldn't you be in favour of FTA with those countries?" I'm not in favour of an unlimited Full Free trade deal on all commodities. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Ok, a few points. We don't know the basis of any of these potential trade deals, if they will be zero tariff on all commodities or some. Even if they were, it would reduce the cost of imports by the import duty rate, averaging less than 5%. As you've acknowledged we already have lots of chinese goods here. There is only any point in a deal that is advantageous to both countries. So, we will gain by selling them cars, JCBs, jet engines etc. etc. Personally I wouldnt be in favour of a full Free Trade deal with those two countries. But that will be in our elected governments power to decide. Since it can't be concluded in the next 2 years you can vote for the party that has the best international trade policy suggestions for the 2020 election. Why wouldn't you be in favour of FTA with those countries? I'm not in favour of an unlimited Full Free trade deal on all commodities." Because you think it would be detrimental to our economy? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Robots don't pay taxes, immigrants do. What an odd comment. Companies using modern manufacturing techniques and employing a highly skilled workforce, generates profits, pay high wages and all pay tax. An odd comment? You think that robots pay taxes?
Why do companies automate processes? Because they have an innate interest in robots, or to reduce costs/increase productivity? "You've answered it yourself - to increase productivity which also gives a skilled worksforce, the company and skilled well paid workforce pay tax. Your preference to unskilled immigrant labour gives little to no benefit. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Robots don't pay taxes, immigrants do. What an odd comment. Companies using modern manufacturing techniques and employing a highly skilled workforce, generates profits, pay high wages and all pay tax. An odd comment? You think that robots pay taxes?
Why do companies automate processes? Because they have an innate interest in robots, or to reduce costs/increase productivity?
You've answered it yourself - to increase productivity which also gives a skilled worksforce, the company and skilled well paid workforce pay tax.
Your preference to unskilled immigrant labour gives little to no benefit."Would you agree that increased productivity means less man hours per product? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" You've answered it yourself - to increase productivity which also gives a skilled worksforce, the company and skilled well paid workforce pay tax. Your preference to unskilled immigrant labour gives little to no benefit. Would you agree that increased productivity means less man hours per product? " I understand productivity, manufacturing, profit. I have worked in high technology design and manufacturing for 25 years. If you prefer a low skill, low income economy then that is your choice. In my opinion it is not the route to a successful country. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The doom mongers don't seem to understand that manufacturing has to start somewhere with small beginnings. Most people in this country work in small businesses. The engineers etc who go to work and be trained at these places could go on to be the entrepreneurs/manufacturers/employers of the future. Think positive the point being made was that the original manufacturing of the products were made in the UK before dyson decided to move them to malaysia........ those are job he decided to move elsewhere....
someone a bit further made a point that has been missed as we go along.... people who think manufacturing jobs are coming back are somewhat deluded because those manufacturing jobs are going to robots....
so as others have said to categorise it as a brexit story is misleading at best.... but heck some people here really like to manipulate a story to suit a narrative....
What about the people like me that make the robots, associated tooling and automation? Don't write me off just yet! "Sorry to say pal, but I've already seen coders in Italy, Germany and the Scandinavian regions working on coding and A.I with the intention to have robots doing the repairs on other robots, robots operating the production and Assembly lines of other robots. Anyone who thinks automation will basically produce a similar amount of jobs as it makes human labour is quite simply not getting the memo and not looking at the harsh reality. There will be no 1:1 ratio of a one human being replaced by a machine, one human making the components or programme for that machine. Once robotics and AI is developed enough (5-10 years most likely) we will see entire factories requiring most likely only one hundred human staff at the most. People need to get to grips with this. And it wont just happen here, it will happen globally. I mean it's a gold mine for private companies. Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. so Brexit will be a success then? Otherwise how will we pay for these goods flooding in? Your definition of a success is jobs going to another country is it?
How does buying cheap goods from other countries equal us being rich? If we have a rise in unemployment that won't be good for the country."And yet on other threads you insist prices will be more expensive because of the drop in the value of the pound, you really need to make your mind up.
Maybe more cheaper goods will come into the country as a result of Brexit as we develop more trade deals around the world, cheaper goods means more consumer spending which boosts the economy. Also uk exports will increase because of the drop in the value of the pound making us more competitive in global markets which means companies will need to step up manufacturing levels here to meet higher demand. Increased demand and more manufacturing here means more jobs here. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs." Isn't that what the 19th century Luddites said when they went to smash up the weaving machines? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I don't think it is a Brexit or Remain story. It is just good news, and a reminder that the worlds best engineers and innovators are here in Britain. That is why 8 out 11 formula one racing teams are based in Britain . Our engineering skills are world leading . Really? So yet another multinational comes here exploits our inventiveness to think up new products, our scientific and engineering skills to develop those products and promptly exports the knowledge and the jobs and profits that go with manufacturing whatever we have invented, designed and engineered. Not my definition of a good news story. " Although it does sound very like the fruition, of the flawed ideology, Preached,and practiced, by the EU,and Globalisation dreamers. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. millions of jobs will be lost due to robotics ! You said yourself on another thread yet you still persist with the "we need migrants to pay our pensions " No we don't we need investment , education and redistribution of wealth Robots don't pay taxes, immigrants do. " they won't have jobs to pay taxes | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs. Isn't that what the 19th century Luddites said when they went to smash up the weaving machines?" A weaving machine requires a man to repair the machine, a few men and women to work it day in day out, several factories to make the parts and repairs for the machine, that adds more men and women, it requires men and women to collect/mine the materials for creating the parts, it equires a water wheel or an turbine to provide power, that creates more jobs in repair. You miss the point, once artificial intelligence takes off, most of that supply chain will not require many human minds, and certainly no real human labour. Material extraction for components - robots and AI. Material refinement: AI and robots. Refined materials into robot and product components: Robots and AI. Robot assembly: Robots and AI. Coding for robotics: AI will be able to do that to some extent. The main jobs left for humans in industry will be jobs which require a lot of mental dexterity. Coding, robotics and AI innovation will be big markets for a few years, but then someone will create an AI capable of intelligent coding and robotics design itself. From there on, only the smartest coders, and AI programmers, followed by most by innovative engineers will be able to have a market edge over robotics and the pieces of code they run on. As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better." What's your suggested solution? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better. What's your suggested solution?" I'm not really looking for one. I'm pretty much sorted in my profession till I'm atleast 35 and looking at a way to merge my ability with AI and robotics - I'll be fine against all of this. I'm just seeking to remind - mainly the die hard brexiteers that manufacturing in it's labour intensive form is not going to come back to this country. Perhaps brexit might delay the loss of what is left by 5-10 years, but it's not going to come back. If there is a solution it is to get this issue debated more widely by mainstream political parties, so that the two main parties will start looking at ways to a.) Start up training programmes in the UK for under 35 year olds in robotics, AI, and programming, so that they are prepared to hop onto the emerging market - this would probably be best done through a degree style apprenticeship or qualification which leads to advanced training if you hit the threshold. B.) When full automation happens in maybe 30-50 years someone will have to rethink the economic and welfare system we use. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs. Isn't that what the 19th century Luddites said when they went to smash up the weaving machines? A weaving machine requires a man to repair the machine, a few men and women to work it day in day out, several factories to make the parts and repairs for the machine, that adds more men and women, it requires men and women to collect/mine the materials for creating the parts, it equires a water wheel or an turbine to provide power, that creates more jobs in repair. You miss the point, once artificial intelligence takes off, most of that supply chain will not require many human minds, and certainly no real human labour. Material extraction for components - robots and AI. Material refinement: AI and robots. Refined materials into robot and product components: Robots and AI. Robot assembly: Robots and AI. Coding for robotics: AI will be able to do that to some extent. The main jobs left for humans in industry will be jobs which require a lot of mental dexterity. Coding, robotics and AI innovation will be big markets for a few years, but then someone will create an AI capable of intelligent coding and robotics design itself. From there on, only the smartest coders, and AI programmers, followed by most by innovative engineers will be able to have a market edge over robotics and the pieces of code they run on. As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better." so how will we buy the goods the robots make? And where will the demand for the goods come from? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs. Isn't that what the 19th century Luddites said when they went to smash up the weaving machines? A weaving machine requires a man to repair the machine, a few men and women to work it day in day out, several factories to make the parts and repairs for the machine, that adds more men and women, it requires men and women to collect/mine the materials for creating the parts, it equires a water wheel or an turbine to provide power, that creates more jobs in repair. You miss the point, once artificial intelligence takes off, most of that supply chain will not require many human minds, and certainly no real human labour. Material extraction for components - robots and AI. Material refinement: AI and robots. Refined materials into robot and product components: Robots and AI. Robot assembly: Robots and AI. Coding for robotics: AI will be able to do that to some extent. The main jobs left for humans in industry will be jobs which require a lot of mental dexterity. Coding, robotics and AI innovation will be big markets for a few years, but then someone will create an AI capable of intelligent coding and robotics design itself. From there on, only the smartest coders, and AI programmers, followed by most by innovative engineers will be able to have a market edge over robotics and the pieces of code they run on. As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better. so how will we buy the goods the robots make? And where will the demand for the goods come from?" The demand will always be there, it's just the producer of the product will change. People will still want phones, music players, cars, computers, food, clean water. They demand will remain, just the producers of the product will be automated, not living, in most cases. How will we buy them? See my last comment. Realistically when automation takes off, we will have to re-think welfare, social society, and most likely the value of money and a new form of currency. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs. Isn't that what the 19th century Luddites said when they went to smash up the weaving machines? A weaving machine requires a man to repair the machine, a few men and women to work it day in day out, several factories to make the parts and repairs for the machine, that adds more men and women, it requires men and women to collect/mine the materials for creating the parts, it equires a water wheel or an turbine to provide power, that creates more jobs in repair. You miss the point, once artificial intelligence takes off, most of that supply chain will not require many human minds, and certainly no real human labour. Material extraction for components - robots and AI. Material refinement: AI and robots. Refined materials into robot and product components: Robots and AI. Robot assembly: Robots and AI. Coding for robotics: AI will be able to do that to some extent. The main jobs left for humans in industry will be jobs which require a lot of mental dexterity. Coding, robotics and AI innovation will be big markets for a few years, but then someone will create an AI capable of intelligent coding and robotics design itself. From there on, only the smartest coders, and AI programmers, followed by most by innovative engineers will be able to have a market edge over robotics and the pieces of code they run on. As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better. so how will we buy the goods the robots make? And where will the demand for the goods come from? The demand will always be there, it's just the producer of the product will change. People will still want phones, music players, cars, computers, food, clean water. They demand will remain, just the producers of the product will be automated, not living, in most cases. How will we buy them? See my last comment. Realistically when automation takes off, we will have to re-think welfare, social society, and most likely the value of money and a new form of currency. " Sorry missed your last comment, you could be right but millions of jobs have already been lost through automation yet there are more people in work in the UK than ever before, we adapt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is strange how many people labour under falsities and illusions. A number of posters have pointed out that Dyson moved production from Briton to Malaysia. The reply being would you pay an extra £50 for a vacuum made in the UK or would an American pay £1000 for a US made fridge rather than $500 for one made in China. This is a fatuous argument. The fact is Dyson's products did not suddenly reduce in price when he moved production, nor have his products stopped increasing in price since he moved production. However Dyson's profits have soared so much that soon he will be able to buy his own island next to Branson's in the Caribbean (if he has not snapped one up already). No company moves production to reduce the price they charge their customers, they all do it to increase their profits! However a company has to remain competitive in order to sell their products . I have worked for companies where manufacturer of certain parts was transferred abroad in order to remain competitive . Yeah, that's globalisation, jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flood back in. Great for consumers, not great for British workers. Brexit will see more of this, and the loss of more British jobs. millions of jobs will be lost due to robotics ! You said yourself on another thread yet you still persist with the "we need migrants to pay our pensions " No we don't we need investment , education and redistribution of wealth Robots don't pay taxes, immigrants do. " I thought that taxes were paid according to various thresholds . Immigration status is irrelevant . If the process becomes more efficient through the use of robots two things could happen. a. Prices could drop and we will all benefit because of increased efficiency Or b. The company becomes more profitable and as a consequence pays more corporation tax . Taxes paid by low paid workers are low . I fail to understand you point . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" You've answered it yourself - to increase productivity which also gives a skilled worksforce, the company and skilled well paid workforce pay tax. Your preference to unskilled immigrant labour gives little to no benefit. Would you agree that increased productivity means less man hours per product? I understand productivity, manufacturing, profit. I have worked in high technology design and manufacturing for 25 years. If you prefer a low skill, low income economy then that is your choice. In my opinion it is not the route to a successful country." So what are you going to do with all the currently low skilled workers who will be replaced by robots and made unemployed, and what about all the long term unemployed that you have previously said you were so concerned about, but admitted that you had never hired? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs. Isn't that what the 19th century Luddites said when they went to smash up the weaving machines? A weaving machine requires a man to repair the machine, a few men and women to work it day in day out, several factories to make the parts and repairs for the machine, that adds more men and women, it requires men and women to collect/mine the materials for creating the parts, it equires a water wheel or an turbine to provide power, that creates more jobs in repair. You miss the point, once artificial intelligence takes off, most of that supply chain will not require many human minds, and certainly no real human labour. Material extraction for components - robots and AI. Material refinement: AI and robots. Refined materials into robot and product components: Robots and AI. Robot assembly: Robots and AI. Coding for robotics: AI will be able to do that to some extent. The main jobs left for humans in industry will be jobs which require a lot of mental dexterity. Coding, robotics and AI innovation will be big markets for a few years, but then someone will create an AI capable of intelligent coding and robotics design itself. From there on, only the smartest coders, and AI programmers, followed by most by innovative engineers will be able to have a market edge over robotics and the pieces of code they run on. As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better. so how will we buy the goods the robots make? And where will the demand for the goods come from? The demand will always be there, it's just the producer of the product will change. People will still want phones, music players, cars, computers, food, clean water. They demand will remain, just the producers of the product will be automated, not living, in most cases. How will we buy them? See my last comment. Realistically when automation takes off, we will have to re-think welfare, social society, and most likely the value of money and a new form of currency. Sorry missed your last comment, you could be right but millions of jobs have already been lost through automation yet there are more people in work in the UK than ever before, we adapt" There are more people in work today because the non-western world started to take off 50 years ago and the world started to become a well and truly globalised economy. Japanese migrants opened up restaurants in America, Germany, and here, they become more common and become less of a wealthy man's experience and more a middle class experience. Suddenly those Japanese restaurant owners are expanding and looking to import speciality products, it opens up a new market. Demand grows, supermarkets look to start producing Japanese style ready meals, and/or importing the right products so people can make them from scratch. Demand grows, cost goes down, then demand grows again. What I am trying to say is that so far humanity has not had to worry too much about technological improvements getting rid of jobs, because those jobs created a roughly equal number of new professions. As for your logic of it'll be okay cause tech has replaced jobs and yet more people are in work than ever before. That's simple, the population grew, and that increased the market size and demand and potential for new business and innovation in both the private and public sector. What we are looking at is rapid and almost complete automation occurring in the space of one, maybe two generations at the most. Automation which will eventually rival the average human's ability to innovate, and think analytically and mathematically. Basically the traditional cycle of population growth increasing the size of a consumer market will happen. However the job creation associated with that wont. You tell 7.whatever billion people that most of them will be obsolete in the job market in 30 years, unless the governments recognise this. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Dyson is to begin work on a new multimillion-pound research and development centre in a move described by the Prime Minister as a "vote of confidence" in the UK. . The vacuum cleaner and electronics maker, run by billionaire inventor Sir James Dyson, will begin work on a new campus at a 517-acre former airfield in Hullavington, Wiltshire. . Sir James, who backed the Brexit vote, said: "After 25 years of UK growth, and continuing expansion globally, we are fast outgrowing our Malmesbury Campus. "The 517-acre Hullavington Campus is an investment for our future, creating a global hub for our research and development endeavours. . now, back to remainers doom & gloom But let's look at the data, the majority of people who voted to Leave are older and less likely to have a degree. They want the return of manufacturing jobs, this won't help them at all, those jobs are in Malaysia. The Remain voters are generally the younger ones with degrees, they are the type of people who are going to get the high paying, graduate level R&D jobs. interesting. i see it more people who pay for degrees the more people who are in low paid jobs with a degree. i honestly think only so many well paid degree based jobs for people to get and the proper apprenticeship route is now costing us as we have little skilled workers with real hands on experience as they wasted years getting a degree rather than a trade. so many people i know got degrees and know happy on 50-60k year in Manchester which is good wage if you happy working for others. then look at people who went the trade route and set up on own once they could and they spend that on cars a year. guess saying degrees are something that have got out of control and lots of employers only go for top marks from top unis which is no fun when your pay to play comes to an end and you can not get a job" A very good point. Needing a degree for many jobs is just an indication of your ability to jump hoops to become a good little robot | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs. Isn't that what the 19th century Luddites said when they went to smash up the weaving machines? A weaving machine requires a man to repair the machine, a few men and women to work it day in day out, several factories to make the parts and repairs for the machine, that adds more men and women, it requires men and women to collect/mine the materials for creating the parts, it equires a water wheel or an turbine to provide power, that creates more jobs in repair. You miss the point, once artificial intelligence takes off, most of that supply chain will not require many human minds, and certainly no real human labour. Material extraction for components - robots and AI. Material refinement: AI and robots. Refined materials into robot and product components: Robots and AI. Robot assembly: Robots and AI. Coding for robotics: AI will be able to do that to some extent. The main jobs left for humans in industry will be jobs which require a lot of mental dexterity. Coding, robotics and AI innovation will be big markets for a few years, but then someone will create an AI capable of intelligent coding and robotics design itself. From there on, only the smartest coders, and AI programmers, followed by most by innovative engineers will be able to have a market edge over robotics and the pieces of code they run on. As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better. so how will we buy the goods the robots make? And where will the demand for the goods come from? The demand will always be there, it's just the producer of the product will change. People will still want phones, music players, cars, computers, food, clean water. They demand will remain, just the producers of the product will be automated, not living, in most cases. How will we buy them? See my last comment. Realistically when automation takes off, we will have to re-think welfare, social society, and most likely the value of money and a new form of currency. " A fork in the road for utopia or dystopia depending on who you let have the power | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I understand productivity, manufacturing, profit. I have worked in high technology design and manufacturing for 25 years. If you prefer a low skill, low income economy then that is your choice. In my opinion it is not the route to a successful country. So what are you going to do with all the currently low skilled workers who will be replaced by robots and made unemployed, and what about all the long term unemployed that you have previously said you were so concerned about, but admitted that you had never hired? " Automation has been happening since the 19th century, we can't rewind to then. I haven't 'admitted' to not giving anyone long term unmployed a job, I said none had applied so hadnt been interviewed. I create products and jobs and suggest solutions. I have never seen a thread where you offer any positive suggestion, only critisise. Please give us the benefit of your wisdom to the the automation Vs low skill labour issue. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Replace human labour which has working rights, demands regular pay, at least one break a day, holidays off, workers unions, replace all that with codes and machines. One big costly investment, then no complaints, no production slumps, so long as you keep the machines clean and in good condition. All those Apple product human labour benches, gone. There'll be global unemployment highs which make the 2008 crash look like post christmas cut backs. Isn't that what the 19th century Luddites said when they went to smash up the weaving machines? A weaving machine requires a man to repair the machine, a few men and women to work it day in day out, several factories to make the parts and repairs for the machine, that adds more men and women, it requires men and women to collect/mine the materials for creating the parts, it equires a water wheel or an turbine to provide power, that creates more jobs in repair. You miss the point, once artificial intelligence takes off, most of that supply chain will not require many human minds, and certainly no real human labour. Material extraction for components - robots and AI. Material refinement: AI and robots. Refined materials into robot and product components: Robots and AI. Robot assembly: Robots and AI. Coding for robotics: AI will be able to do that to some extent. The main jobs left for humans in industry will be jobs which require a lot of mental dexterity. Coding, robotics and AI innovation will be big markets for a few years, but then someone will create an AI capable of intelligent coding and robotics design itself. From there on, only the smartest coders, and AI programmers, followed by most by innovative engineers will be able to have a market edge over robotics and the pieces of code they run on. As I said before, the quicker people rationalise this, the better. so how will we buy the goods the robots make? And where will the demand for the goods come from? The demand will always be there, it's just the producer of the product will change. People will still want phones, music players, cars, computers, food, clean water. They demand will remain, just the producers of the product will be automated, not living, in most cases. How will we buy them? See my last comment. Realistically when automation takes off, we will have to re-think welfare, social society, and most likely the value of money and a new form of currency. A fork in the road for utopia or dystopia depending on who you let have the power " Yup, or at the very least the next stage of human societal advancement. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I understand productivity, manufacturing, profit. I have worked in high technology design and manufacturing for 25 years. If you prefer a low skill, low income economy then that is your choice. In my opinion it is not the route to a successful country. So what are you going to do with all the currently low skilled workers who will be replaced by robots and made unemployed, and what about all the long term unemployed that you have previously said you were so concerned about, but admitted that you had never hired? Automation has been happening since the 19th century, we can't rewind to then. I haven't 'admitted' to not giving anyone long term unmployed a job, I said none had applied so hadnt been interviewed. I create products and jobs and suggest solutions. I have never seen a thread where you offer any positive suggestion, only critisise. Please give us the benefit of your wisdom to the the automation Vs low skill labour issue." So again you are admitting that you have never given a job to someone who is long term unemployed then. Yiu2 either have given a job to someone who is long term unemployed or you haven't, and you say you haven't. I have already told you what I think is best for protecting UK jobs, staying within the EU. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"many others do it to remain competitive or in business at all. I've worked in companies in the past where they offshored some manufacturing to stay alive ." You have just contradicted me, and then to prove your right and I'm wrong agreed with me. I think you need to learn how to think critically. To be clear your example go from making a negative profit to making a positive profit by moving production offshore. As I said its all about increasing profits. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Automation has been happening since the 19th century, we can't rewind to then. I haven't 'admitted' to not giving anyone long term unmployed a job, I said none had applied so hadnt been interviewed. I create products and jobs and suggest solutions. I have never seen a thread where you offer any positive suggestion, only critisise. Please give us the benefit of your wisdom to the the automation Vs low skill labour issue. So again you are admitting that you have never given a job to someone who is long term unemployed then. Yiu2 either have given a job to someone who is long term unemployed or you haven't, and you say you haven't. I have already told you what I think is best for protecting UK jobs, staying within the EU. " I am not 'admitting' something, I am clearly saying no long term unemployed person has applied for a job that I have advertised. I clearly said that, you either can't understand a simple statement or chose to ignore it. Your constant negativity and lack of ideas is draining. Look back through all your posts, every one is the same. Your only idea is stay as we are. That takes no intelligence, knowledge, experience or insight. I can't be bothered to engage in any more comments with you, as you cannot engage in a sensible discussion. I'll stick to talking to others with differing views who can bounce different views and ideas off each other. That is what interesting, intelligent people do. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"many others do it to remain competitive or in business at all. I've worked in companies in the past where they offshored some manufacturing to stay alive . You have just contradicted me, and then to prove your right and I'm wrong agreed with me. I think you need to learn how to think critically. To be clear your example go from making a negative profit to making a positive profit by moving production offshore. As I said its all about increasing profits." You need to understand how business works : Negative profit = going out of business. Positive profit = staying in business. There's other parts to business too, but that's a good starting point. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"many others do it to remain competitive or in business at all. I've worked in companies in the past where they offshored some manufacturing to stay alive . You have just contradicted me, and then to prove your right and I'm wrong agreed with me. I think you need to learn how to think critically. To be clear your example go from making a negative profit to making a positive profit by moving production offshore. As I said its all about increasing profits. You need to understand how business works : Negative profit = going out of business. Positive profit = staying in business. There's other parts to business too, but that's a good starting point. " So to stay in business, they move production to another country. This makes the goods cheaper. They don't abandon the market that they have been selling in, so jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flow in. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"You need to understand how business works : Negative profit = going out of business. Positive profit = staying in business. There's other parts to business too, but that's a good starting point. " And still you don't get it! You need to read what I write not what you think I write! I made a statement of fact, manufacturing is moved to increase revenue and profits for the business owners, not for any other reason! If the move is because a business is being undercut by competitors and is therefore driven by need, or if the reason is pure greed makes no difference. THE ONLY REASON MANUFACTURING IS MOVED OFF SHORE IS TO INCREASE PROFITS! Sometimes it is very hard to get people to understand the most simple of things.
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"You need to understand how business works : Negative profit = going out of business. Positive profit = staying in business. There's other parts to business too, but that's a good starting point. And still you don't get it! You need to read what I write not what you think I write! I made a statement of fact, manufacturing is moved to increase revenue and profits for the business owners, not for any other reason! If the move is because a business is being undercut by competitors and is therefore driven by need, or if the reason is pure greed makes no difference. THE ONLY REASON MANUFACTURING IS MOVED OFF SHORE IS TO INCREASE PROFITS! Sometimes it is very hard to get people to understand the most simple of things.
"I understand , thanks. My point is positive profit = staying in business. Good for the owner, good for the employees. Going out of business = bad for everybody. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" You need to understand how business works : Negative profit = going out of business. Positive profit = staying in business. There's other parts to business too, but that's a good starting point. So to stay in business, they move production to another country. This makes the goods cheaper. They don't abandon the market that they have been selling in, so jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flow in. "Nice negative spin on the whole scenario. Your intelligent solution is..... ? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I understand , thanks. My point is positive profit = staying in business. Good for the owner, good for the employees. Going out of business = bad for everybody." Good for the employees? Really? How does that work? Regardless of what happens to the business they loose their jobs. Do you think they get larger redundancy payments? Or do you think that just maybe as a result of jobs being shipped out of the economy that other jobs in the economy become redundant too because they are no longer needed to service the jobs now moved overseas?
I think maybe it is you who need a lesson in how supply chains really work. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I understand , thanks. My point is positive profit = staying in business. Good for the owner, good for the employees. Going out of business = bad for everybody. Good for the employees? Really? How does that work? Regardless of what happens to the business they loose their jobs. Do you think they get larger redundancy payments? Or do you think that just maybe as a result of jobs being shipped out of the economy that other jobs in the economy become redundant too because they are no longer needed to service the jobs now moved overseas?
I think maybe it is you who need a lesson in how supply chains really work. "Thanks, I've worked in international design and manufacturing businesses for 25 years, and now run my own. I understand business and supply chains. A business outsourcing a portion of its' manufacturing and staying in business and retaining all or some of its' employees is infinity better than it going bust and all being redundant. In my opinion. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A business outsourcing a portion of its' manufacturing and staying in business and retaining all or some of its' employees is infinity better than it going bust and all being redundant. In my opinion." Again, not so. It may seem to be the case in the short term but in the long term it leads to wholesale deindustrialization and outward transfer of wealth, followed by the relocation of financial markets to the new industrialised hub where the wealth has also relocated to. But you are right about one thing, business owners do well out of it. How much of your business and this countries wealth have you transferred overseas? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A business outsourcing a portion of its' manufacturing and staying in business and retaining all or some of its' employees is infinity better than it going bust and all being redundant. In my opinion. Again, not so. It may seem to be the case in the short term but in the long term it leads to wholesale deindustrialization and outward transfer of wealth, followed by the relocation of financial markets to the new industrialised hub where the wealth has also relocated to. But you are right about one thing, business owners do well out of it. How much of your business and this countries wealth have you transferred overseas?" Lots of businesses buy components from low cost markets. They continue in business in the UK, employing millions of UK workers. If the whole lot goes oversees, lock, stock and barrel, I would agree. But, tell me your suggestion. If you were running a business that was making a loss, and you could outsource an element of that business to stay alive and retain your employees in paid work, what would you do? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So are you advocating a return to state run industries?" I have and will always advocate a mixed economy. It is the best working model available. We are an island of coal that imports coal from Germany and Poland. We used to make the best steel in the world now we import it from China. We are an island that relies on imported food not to starve and exported trade goods to pay for that food, who don't build ships and increasingly don't manufacture goods. Am I the only one who has seen the link between this decline and the closing down or selling off to private enterprise of our nationalised industries? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So are you advocating a return to state run industries? I have and will always advocate a mixed economy. It is the best working model available. We are an island of coal that imports coal from Germany and Poland. We used to make the best steel in the world now we import it from China. We are an island that relies on imported food not to starve and exported trade goods to pay for that food, who don't build ships and increasingly don't manufacture goods. Am I the only one who has seen the link between this decline and the closing down or selling off to private enterprise of our nationalised industries?" Keeping UK manufacturing is critical. To do that modern methods have to be used or it will fail. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So are you advocating a return to state run industries? I have and will always advocate a mixed economy. It is the best working model available. We are an island of coal that imports coal from Germany and Poland. We used to make the best steel in the world now we import it from China. We are an island that relies on imported food not to starve and exported trade goods to pay for that food, who don't build ships and increasingly don't manufacture goods. Am I the only one who has seen the link between this decline and the closing down or selling off to private enterprise of our nationalised industries?" All well and good if the world was a level playing field. Would a British steel worker accept the same wages and conditions of a Chinese steel worker? Unfortunately it's not and in the absence of the Western world getting the Asian world to work to our pay and conditions, our manufacturing has to adapt and fight to survive. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Keeping UK manufacturing is critical. To do that modern methods have to be used or it will fail." We agree! However to keep manufacturing finished goods we need to also make the component parts, to do this we also need to produce the finished materials of the correct standard. To do that we need to import raw materials and process them. To do that, as we are an island, we need to have a merchant marine. To have a merchant marine we need to build ships. To build ships we need to make quality steel. It is a circular process. Has anyone wondered why China is flooding the world market with cheap subsidised steel? Or why the steel China is exporting to the industrialised world is so often found to be substandard? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Keeping UK manufacturing is critical. To do that modern methods have to be used or it will fail. We agree! However to keep manufacturing finished goods we need to also make the component parts, to do this we also need to produce the finished materials of the correct standard. To do that we need to import raw materials and process them. To do that, as we are an island, we need to have a merchant marine. To have a merchant marine we need to build ships. To build ships we need to make quality steel. It is a circular process. Has anyone wondered why China is flooding the world market with cheap subsidised steel? Or why the steel China is exporting to the industrialised world is so often found to be substandard?" Partly! To manufacture finished goods it would be better if as much of the component parts could be made here. That is not always possible / practical / cost effective. e.g we don't need to produce Titanium here to have a successful aerospace industry. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" You need to understand how business works : Negative profit = going out of business. Positive profit = staying in business. There's other parts to business too, but that's a good starting point. So to stay in business, they move production to another country. This makes the goods cheaper. They don't abandon the market that they have been selling in, so jobs flow out of the UK, and cheap goods flow in.
Nice negative spin on the whole scenario. Your intelligent solution is..... ?"its not a spin, its how the world works | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Nice negative spin on the whole scenario. Your intelligent solution is..... ? its not a spin, its how the world works " Not really, but anyway, you missed an intelligent solution, or don't you have one? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Partly! To manufacture finished goods it would be better if as much of the component parts could be made here. That is not always possible / practical / cost effective. e.g we don't need to produce Titanium here to have a successful aerospace industry." Again you are wrong, because you are looking at things from a private enterprise viewpoint and assuming that the status quo will not change. Taking your example of titanium, there are titanium deposits in the UK (mainly in Cornwall) if we do not have an industrial ore processing operation using imported ore we cannot support a small extraction operation. As a result if the geopolitical landscape changes in a way that cuts our titanium supplies our aerospace industry also fails. Having a small state subsidised industry may seem like a frivolous vanity project and a waste of resources but is actually very prudent. The same is true for the majority of heavy industry. Private enterprise is profit and therefore efficiency and cost driven, and rightly so. But private enterprise is not the right answer for everything. There are many things required for a secure successful economy that the private enterprise model does not suit. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Partly! To manufacture finished goods it would be better if as much of the component parts could be made here. That is not always possible / practical / cost effective. e.g we don't need to produce Titanium here to have a successful aerospace industry. Again you are wrong, because you are looking at things from a private enterprise viewpoint and assuming that the status quo will not change. Taking your example of titanium, there are titanium deposits in the UK (mainly in Cornwall) if we do not have an industrial ore processing operation using imported ore we cannot support a small extraction operation. As a result if the geopolitical landscape changes in a way that cuts our titanium supplies our aerospace industry also fails. Having a small state subsidised industry may seem like a frivolous vanity project and a waste of resources but is actually very prudent. The same is true for the majority of heavy industry. Private enterprise is profit and therefore efficiency and cost driven, and rightly so. But private enterprise is not the right answer for everything. There are many things required for a secure successful economy that the private enterprise model does not suit." You are aware that the EU doesn't allow state subsidies? Although they seemed to turn a blind eye to the French government "helping" out Alstom and the Belgian goverment "paying" for a quarter of steel production in that country. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Partly! To manufacture finished goods it would be better if as much of the component parts could be made here. That is not always possible / practical / cost effective. e.g we don't need to produce Titanium here to have a successful aerospace industry. Again you are wrong, because you are looking at things from a private enterprise viewpoint and assuming that the status quo will not change. Taking your example of titanium, there are titanium deposits in the UK (mainly in Cornwall) if we do not have an industrial ore processing operation using imported ore we cannot support a small extraction operation. As a result if the geopolitical landscape changes in a way that cuts our titanium supplies our aerospace industry also fails. Having a small state subsidised industry may seem like a frivolous vanity project and a waste of resources but is actually very prudent. The same is true for the majority of heavy industry. Private enterprise is profit and therefore efficiency and cost driven, and rightly so. But private enterprise is not the right answer for everything. There are many things required for a secure successful economy that the private enterprise model does not suit." OK, you are suggesting a state controlled semi-private method as used in China. That isn't going to happen here. Saying I'm wrong flies in the face of the fact we do have a successful aerospace industry, without your Cornwall state-run titanium mines. Most industries use imported raw materials, process them, add value and export. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"You are aware that the EU doesn't allow state subsidies?" That is not quite so tho is it. "Although they seemed to turn a blind eye to the French government "helping" out Alstom and the Belgian goverment "paying" for a quarter of steel production in that country." No blind eye turned by the EU at all. There are specific exemptions for coal and transport as well as for any state subsidies to industries that are vital to national security. That our right wing anti British public ownership of British infrastructure or industry have only used those exemptions to make parts of our economy more attractive to foreign governments to buy and speaks volumes about our governments attitude to us and our security. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"OK, you are suggesting a state controlled semi-private method as used in China. That isn't going to happen here. Saying I'm wrong flies in the face of the fact we do have a successful aerospace industry, without your Cornwall state-run titanium mines. Most industries use imported raw materials, process them, add value and export." I am saying we should have: State owned British Mining, mining coal and any other raw material available here. It does not have to be large but it needs to be big enough to retain a skills base and be able to be expanded at any time of need. State owned British Metals, refining top quality steel, aluminium, copper, tin... Again it does not have to be big but it should be able to supply British Shipbuilding with the steel it needs to build British Royal and Merchant Navy ships. And finally a state owned British Shipbuilding. See above for size. Like it or not the reason that the UK is a country in industrial decline where Germany isn't is because Germany still mines coal, makes quality steel and builds ships and the German state subsidises these industries. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"OK, you are suggesting a state controlled semi-private method as used in China. That isn't going to happen here. Saying I'm wrong flies in the face of the fact we do have a successful aerospace industry, without your Cornwall state-run titanium mines. Most industries use imported raw materials, process them, add value and export. I am saying we should have: State owned British Mining, mining coal and any other raw material available here. It does not have to be large but it needs to be big enough to retain a skills base and be able to be expanded at any time of need. State owned British Metals, refining top quality steel, aluminium, copper, tin... Again it does not have to be big but it should be able to supply British Shipbuilding with the steel it needs to build British Royal and Merchant Navy ships. And finally a state owned British Shipbuilding. See above for size. Like it or not the reason that the UK is a country in industrial decline where Germany isn't is because Germany still mines coal, makes quality steel and builds ships and the German state subsidises these industries." OK, that's all good. Historically, we have been very bad at making these type of operations work well. If they can be run slickly and efficiently and not just be a cash pit then there is a discussion to be had. The armed forces should be using British made equipment, the Police should be driving British made cars etc. I know you mention security, but I can't see how the subsidies are currently allowed in EU law. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"OK, that's all good. Historically, we have been very bad at making these type of operations work well. If they can be run slickly and efficiently and not just be a cash pit then there is a discussion to be had. The armed forces should be using British made equipment, the Police should be driving British made cars etc. I know you mention security, but I can't see how the subsidies are currently allowed in EU law." I am glad you picked up on my point about security. Security is always a money pit, there is never a justification for the outlay until it is needed. Then its a case of finding a scapegoat to blame for cutting it in the name of financial savings. funnily enough it has always been the Tories who have cut spending on security to a point that the country has been left defenceless, but they are seen as the party of national security. I was very specific about what industries should be publicly owned because they are the industries that are vital to national economic security. If we are including the armed forces then I would also add the munitions industry to the list of publicly owned industries. In my view first and foremost in matters of security we should retain a full production base from conversion of raw materials to supplying the final product and its consumables regardless of cost to the public purse. When war breaks out we dont get to ask for a time out while we rebuild our industries and then rearm. We must be ready or we must be ready for defeat. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"OK, that's all good. Historically, we have been very bad at making these type of operations work well. If they can be run slickly and efficiently and not just be a cash pit then there is a discussion to be had. The armed forces should be using British made equipment, the Police should be driving British made cars etc. I know you mention security, but I can't see how the subsidies are currently allowed in EU law. I am glad you picked up on my point about security. Security is always a money pit, there is never a justification for the outlay until it is needed. Then its a case of finding a scapegoat to blame for cutting it in the name of financial savings. funnily enough it has always been the Tories who have cut spending on security to a point that the country has been left defenceless, but they are seen as the party of national security. I was very specific about what industries should be publicly owned because they are the industries that are vital to national economic security. If we are including the armed forces then I would also add the munitions industry to the list of publicly owned industries. In my view first and foremost in matters of security we should retain a full production base from conversion of raw materials to supplying the final product and its consumables regardless of cost to the public purse. When war breaks out we dont get to ask for a time out while we rebuild our industries and then rearm. We must be ready or we must be ready for defeat." Do you really think the future of warfare is aircraft carriers and standing armies. That sounds very 20th century.I Would say cyber warfare and drones are the future.They will be dropping autonomous drones in swarms of 1000s targeting infantry and vehicles and ships. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Do you really think the future of warfare is aircraft carriers and standing armies. That sounds very 20th century.I Would say cyber warfare and drones are the future.They will be dropping autonomous drones in swarms of 1000s targeting infantry and vehicles and ships." No... I don't think, I know. Cyber warfare is a tool for spies and saboteurs. Drones are a very limited tool for use against poorly equipped forces and therefore a distraction (an omni-directional NNEMP would knock out all communications with drones in an area leaving them defenceless and unable to function). Fact is warfare is a very human endeavour and every time someone has come up with a 'new and revolutionary' that will negate the need for the Mk1 boot on the ground it has quickly been found to be nothing of the kind. In the end like all machines drones will become another tool used by human troops and ships and planes will be used as transports and weapons platforms just as they are now. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Do you really think the future of warfare is aircraft carriers and standing armies. That sounds very 20th century.I Would say cyber warfare and drones are the future.They will be dropping autonomous drones in swarms of 1000s targeting infantry and vehicles and ships. No... I don't think, I know. Cyber warfare is a tool for spies and saboteurs. Drones are a very limited tool for use against poorly equipped forces and therefore a distraction (an omni-directional NNEMP would knock out all communications with drones in an area leaving them defenceless and unable to function). Fact is warfare is a very human endeavour and every time someone has come up with a 'new and revolutionary' that will negate the need for the Mk1 boot on the ground it has quickly been found to be nothing of the kind. In the end like all machines drones will become another tool used by human troops and ships and planes will be used as transports and weapons platforms just as they are now." Any aircraft, manned or unmanned, can be brought down by a single missile, but a swarm can take multiple hits and keep going. Being able to absorb this type of damage makes the drone swarm hard to stop, especially when defences are geared towards shooting down single planes.They dont need to be remote controlled they are now autonomous.I am sure emp protection is being looked at.They are cheap and expendable. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Is this what Dyson is building in his factory? "No no doubt hes making another £300 hair dryer.Sorry i seem to have gone off topic with drones apologies. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Is this what Dyson is building in his factory? No no doubt hes making another £300 hair dryer.Sorry i seem to have gone off topic with drones apologies. "Well, he isn't making Titanium or battleships either, so it had drifted a bit already......... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering." I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering.I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything." Seems a lot of trouble to go to just for a Google vacuum cleaner. Is it bagless? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering.I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything. Seems a lot of trouble to go to just for a Google vacuum cleaner. Is it bagless?" I would hope so.Considering google spent a few billion on these companies.  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering.I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything." Google nearly already is. They effectively supply all of what most people look for on the internet. That is a very powerful position to be in already. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering.I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything. Google nearly already is. They effectively supply all of what most people look for on the internet. That is a very powerful position to be in already." I have just seen automation in action to night . At the baggage drop off point for BA you are given a ticket and have to both weigh your in bag and label the bag yourself . In addition you have to scan the label. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering.I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything. Google nearly already is. They effectively supply all of what most people look for on the internet. That is a very powerful position to be in already." Google has even bigger plans if it creates the first true AI.Its investing billions in this project.The applications are endless .I would rather have tech giant own this technology than the miltary.I wouldnt want to see a weaponised AI.You can however bet the are also investing billions. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering.I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything. Google nearly already is. They effectively supply all of what most people look for on the internet. That is a very powerful position to be in already. Google has even bigger plans if it creates the first true AI.Its investing billions in this project.The applications are endless .I would rather have tech giant own this technology than the miltary.I wouldnt want to see a weaponised AI.You can however bet the are also investing billions. " I think Google own Boston Dynamics, a military robot maker. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering.I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything. Google nearly already is. They effectively supply all of what most people look for on the internet. That is a very powerful position to be in already. Google has even bigger plans if it creates the first true AI.Its investing billions in this project.The applications are endless .I would rather have tech giant own this technology than the miltary.I wouldnt want to see a weaponised AI.You can however bet the are also investing billions. I think Google own Boston Dynamics, a military robot maker." Yup, they do. Although they are trying to sell the division off. And their latest robot 'Handle' is pretty scary to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7xvqQeoA8c -Matt | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Believed to be a campus to develop AI. Just put your vacuum cleaner on the floor and it will decide how and when to do the hoovering.I wish him luck as hes up against Google who bought up last year, all the best AI start ups including the best of all the british one "deep mind" and is assembling the biggest AI laboratory on earth.Whoever gets their first could well be master of everything. Seems a lot of trouble to go to just for a Google vacuum cleaner. Is it bagless?" Haven't you seen the vacuum cleaner that does it itself. With sensors it'll be awesome. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Ocado near London have automated a lot with robotics. It packs everything. Their system is aware where everything is and knows logistics. They are hiring software engineer, operational engineers, data scientists. Seems to be a trend of no return." I've given my kids a list of career choices that hopefully will still exist in 15 years. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Ocado near London have automated a lot with robotics. It packs everything. Their system is aware where everything is and knows logistics. They are hiring software engineer, operational engineers, data scientists. Seems to be a trend of no return.I've given my kids a list of career choices that hopefully will still exist in 15 years. "Hard to predict. I left software engineering into management. Hope that stays for 15 years. But technology changed every month. Something new to learn all the time. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Ocado near London have automated a lot with robotics. It packs everything. Their system is aware where everything is and knows logistics. They are hiring software engineer, operational engineers, data scientists. Seems to be a trend of no return.I've given my kids a list of career choices that hopefully will still exist in 15 years. "Armed forces? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Ocado near London have automated a lot with robotics. It packs everything. Their system is aware where everything is and knows logistics. They are hiring software engineer, operational engineers, data scientists. Seems to be a trend of no return.I've given my kids a list of career choices that hopefully will still exist in 15 years.
Armed forces? "Why send men and women into combat when you can send a machine? I was thinking a degree in science.Biotech or nanotech and robotics would be a good choice. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Ocado near London have automated a lot with robotics. It packs everything. Their system is aware where everything is and knows logistics. They are hiring software engineer, operational engineers, data scientists. Seems to be a trend of no return.I've given my kids a list of career choices that hopefully will still exist in 15 years.
Armed forces? Why send men and women into combat when you can send a machine? I was thinking a degree in science.Biotech or nanotech and robotics would be a good choice. "With the way politics is going at the moment I think guard towers, razor wire and industrial furnaces might be a growth industry  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Ocado near London have automated a lot with robotics. It packs everything. Their system is aware where everything is and knows logistics. They are hiring software engineer, operational engineers, data scientists. Seems to be a trend of no return.I've given my kids a list of career choices that hopefully will still exist in 15 years.
Armed forces? Why send men and women into combat when you can send a machine? I was thinking a degree in science.Biotech or nanotech and robotics would be a good choice.
With the way politics is going at the moment I think guard towers, razor wire and industrial furnaces might be a growth industry "In the USA maybe.We haven't reached that mentality just yet. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
