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Heseltine

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Apparently going to do his best to block article 50 vote. Wants another referendum.

(a) which moron ever gave him a peerage....? [just goes to show the whole system is fucked]

(b) I hadn't realised he was still alive? He was a senile old duffer donkeys years ago!

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Stunned silence....maybe he has died?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Stunned silence....maybe he has died?"

Heseltine is probably in a darkened room somewhere with Blair and Mandelson. Someone should lock the door and leave them there.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

One of the few Conservatives who sometimes talks sense.

In terms of ability and intellect he dwarfs the entire current cabinet.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

a conviction politician and definitely not just another one of the usual right wing sycophantic yes men

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"Stunned silence....maybe he has died?

Heseltine is probably in a darkened room somewhere with Blair and Mandelson. Someone should lock the door and leave them there. "

your only showing your lack of understanding of how an open democracy works with that comment..

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"Stunned silence....maybe he has died?

Heseltine is probably in a darkened room somewhere with Blair and Mandelson. Someone should lock the door and leave them there. "

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"Stunned silence....maybe he has died?

Heseltine is probably in a darkened room somewhere with Blair and Mandelson. Someone should lock the door and leave them there.

your only showing your lack of understanding of how an open democracy works with that comment..

"
No it is the other way round,you do not understyand democracy

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"Stunned silence....maybe he has died?

Heseltine is probably in a darkened room somewhere with Blair and Mandelson. Someone should lock the door and leave them there.

your only showing your lack of understanding of how an open democracy works with that comment..

No it is the other way round,you do not understyand democracy"

ah yes ok..

locking people up or in who have different views has always been one of the founding principles of an open democracy..

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I've seen him speak twice in the last couple of years, having not seen him since the mid 90s. He's held the same views throughout that time. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

He scuppered another female PM over Europe after all.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I've seen him speak twice in the last couple of years, having not seen him since the mid 90s. He's held the same views throughout that time. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

He scuppered another female PM over Europe after all. "

Actually , I think you will find that was to do with Westland Helicopters! Europe never came into it.

He has always been a Europhile.....I have no surprise over his views. I support his right to have them. What I was asking is people's opinions of him stating he will fight to block article 50 being triggered and to aim for a second referendum.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"I've seen him speak twice in the last couple of years, having not seen him since the mid 90s. He's held the same views throughout that time. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

He scuppered another female PM over Europe after all.

Actually , I think you will find that was to do with Westland Helicopters! Europe never came into it.

He has always been a Europhile.....I have no surprise over his views. I support his right to have them. What I was asking is people's opinions of him stating he will fight to block article 50 being triggered and to aim for a second referendum."

My view is that it is his right so to do. The fact that he is pissing in the wrong direction against the wind means he will get wet and smelly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I've seen him speak twice in the last couple of years, having not seen him since the mid 90s. He's held the same views throughout that time. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

He scuppered another female PM over Europe after all.

Actually , I think you will find that was to do with Westland Helicopters! Europe never came into it.

He has always been a Europhile.....I have no surprise over his views. I support his right to have them. What I was asking is people's opinions of him stating he will fight to block article 50 being triggered and to aim for a second referendum."

Hopefully he has little influence these days and people will just ignore him . He is of couse entitled to express an opinion , but on this occasion he is showing little loyalty to his party .

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"I've seen him speak twice in the last couple of years, having not seen him since the mid 90s. He's held the same views throughout that time. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

He scuppered another female PM over Europe after all.

Actually , I think you will find that was to do with Westland Helicopters! Europe never came into it.

He has always been a Europhile.....I have no surprise over his views. I support his right to have them. What I was asking is people's opinions of him stating he will fight to block article 50 being triggered and to aim for a second referendum.

My view is that it is his right so to do. The fact that he is pissing in the wrong direction against the wind means he will get wet and smelly.

"
lol like it

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"I've seen him speak twice in the last couple of years, having not seen him since the mid 90s. He's held the same views throughout that time. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

He scuppered another female PM over Europe after all.

Actually , I think you will find that was to do with Westland Helicopters! Europe never came into it.

He has always been a Europhile.....I have no surprise over his views. I support his right to have them. What I was asking is people's opinions of him stating he will fight to block article 50 being triggered and to aim for a second referendum.

Hopefully he has little influence these days and people will just ignore him . He is of couse entitled to express an opinion , but on this occasion he is showing little loyalty to his party . "

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"Stunned silence....maybe he has died?

Heseltine is probably in a darkened room somewhere with Blair and Mandelson. Someone should lock the door and leave them there.

your only showing your lack of understanding of how an open democracy works with that comment..

No it is the other way round,you do not understyand democracy

ah yes ok..

locking people up or in who have different views has always been one of the founding principles of an open democracy..

"

We only know about it because its been reported in the media. Maybe we should ban the media too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I've seen him speak twice in the last couple of years, having not seen him since the mid 90s. He's held the same views throughout that time. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

He scuppered another female PM over Europe after all.

Actually , I think you will find that was to do with Westland Helicopters! Europe never came into it.

He has always been a Europhile.....I have no surprise over his views. I support his right to have them. What I was asking is people's opinions of him stating he will fight to block article 50 being triggered and to aim for a second referendum.

Hopefully he has little influence these days and people will just ignore him . He is of couse entitled to express an opinion , but on this occasion he is showing little loyalty to his party . "

He is maybe showing his loyalty in his mind to the UK if he thinks it's going in the wrong direction.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

He's standing by his convictions I guess.

How distasteful

As controversies go, Westland was a rather principled one.

Interestingly, Hesltine wanted Westland to go to a British Aerospace/ Augusta consortium and Thatcher to Sikorsky as it needed rescue regardless.

One of them included a British firm, the other...didn't

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"I've seen him speak twice in the last couple of years, having not seen him since the mid 90s. He's held the same views throughout that time. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

He scuppered another female PM over Europe after all.

Actually , I think you will find that was to do with Westland Helicopters! Europe never came into it.

He has always been a Europhile.....I have no surprise over his views. I support his right to have them. What I was asking is people's opinions of him stating he will fight to block article 50 being triggered and to aim for a second referendum.

My view is that it is his right so to do. The fact that he is pissing in the wrong direction against the wind means he will get wet and smelly.

"

For once something I agree with you on there Lickety.

The likes of Heseltine and Mandelson can try to block this bill but the leader of the House of Lords said if the bill ping pongs back and forth a few times between the Commons and the Lords then the Lords will give up and let it go. Labour MP Alan Johnson also said on the This week programme with Andrew Neil on Thursday night that he confidently predicts the bill will pass in the Lords after 1 or 2 ping pongs with the Commons and Teresa May will trigger article 50 before the end of March.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

That is probably true, but by no means certain.

Luckily the European Court will probably rule that ultimately we will have the right to reverse Article 50 ourselves if we want to, either by a second referendum or another vote in Parliament in two years time.

Lets face it, the tide has already turned on the public desire for Brexit, especially Hard Brexit, so in two years time we'll be demanding the Commons and Lords to save us from our own stupidity and the Leave Campaigns liars.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That is probably true, but by no means certain.

Luckily the European Court will probably rule that ultimately we will have the right to reverse Article 50 ourselves if we want to, either by a second referendum or another vote in Parliament in two years time.

Lets face it, the tide has already turned on the public desire for Brexit, especially Hard Brexit, so in two years time we'll be demanding the Commons and Lords to save us from our own stupidity and the Leave Campaigns liars."
Our own stupidity ?

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That is probably true, but by no means certain.

Luckily the European Court will probably rule that ultimately we will have the right to reverse Article 50 ourselves if we want to, either by a second referendum or another vote in Parliament in two years time.

Lets face it, the tide has already turned on the public desire for Brexit, especially Hard Brexit, so in two years time we'll be demanding the Commons and Lords to save us from our own stupidity and the Leave Campaigns liars."

you must live in a different world if you think that, a world of cotton wool & marshmallows all soft n cuddly where everyone plays happily in never never land

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That is probably true, but by no means certain.

Luckily the European Court will probably rule that ultimately we will have the right to reverse Article 50 ourselves if we want to, either by a second referendum or another vote in Parliament in two years time.

Lets face it, the tide has already turned on the public desire for Brexit, especially Hard Brexit, so in two years time we'll be demanding the Commons and Lords to save us from our own stupidity and the Leave Campaigns liars. Our own stupidity ?

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU. "

To be fair and ballanced yes the stock market is performing well because of the difference between Sterling and the Dollar since Sterling tanked after the referendum result and our strong economy isn't anything to do with Brexit, that's been good for quite some time now while in the EU and we won't be able to gauge any difference good or bad until we get nearer to crunch time of leaving.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

If we have a strongly performing economy while we are still in the EU, why leave?

The damage is going to come.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"If we have a strongly performing economy while we are still in the EU, why leave?

The damage is going to come. "

This is the contradiction of the Remainers position. Any good news it's because we are still in the EU and haven't left yet. Any bad news it's because of Brexit. Sorry you can't have it both ways.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we have a strongly performing economy while we are still in the EU, why leave?

The damage is going to come.

This is the contradiction of the Remainers position. Any good news it's because we are still in the EU and haven't left yet. Any bad news it's because of Brexit. Sorry you can't have it both ways. "

It's not a case of trying to have it both ways at all.

We currently have a strong economy and have had for quite a while now so that's nothing to bo with Brexit, that's how our County is performing while being in the EU.

So that's a good point of EU membership.

The extra "note i said EXTRA" billions the BOE has had to pump into the economy was a direct result of the currency market shock after the Brexit vote.

So Brexit has cost us billions in EXTRA monetary policy to "steady the ship" just as an after effect from the referendum result which will take a long time to recoup and that's just the beggining as we don't know how hard Brexit is going to be.

A bad thing then because of Brexit.

The FTSE 100 is very high due to the large drop of Sterling vs the Dollar directly after the Brexit result as all monetary reporting is done in Dollars it looks better as more Dollars to Sterling.

Plus mining oar / copper is leading the trend due to promising growth forcasts in the building sector.

Good for exporting manufacturers having a weak sterling , currently good for investors and bad for everybody else on our Island as the difference between Sterling and the Dollar is driving prices up across the board and if you haven't got large investments to ballance out the cost of living going up then its bad for you.

So that result is directly due to Brexit, good for a few , bad for the majority.

Th

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

It's no good employing logic. It will never overcome emotion of those who are highly prejudiced.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Heseltine the unelected senile old duffer has been sacked by the Conservative party as a government advisor tonight.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"Heseltine the unelected senile old duffer has been sacked by the Conservative party as a government advisor tonight. "

Fair enough, as he voted against the government for Parliament to have a meaningful vote on Brexit.

As you don't seem to think much of our Parliamentary democracy I guess that is a bad thing for anyone to want

You really should make some effort to lay out the full set of information available though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I heard him stumbling through his speech yesterday...more desperate than 'meaningful'.

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By *ittleAcornMan
over a year ago

visiting the beach


"

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU. "

Obviously this is old ground, but "most" people did not vote Leave. Recent polls have also shown that the numbers have changed, particularly with more people becoming 18 and more older people dying.

There are also a swath of students who fucked up and made it impossible for them to vote as it was out of term time and they left it too late for a postal vote application.

I would be willing to put a bit of money on the result being reversed were it to be put to the country again.

It doesn't really need anyone to change their mind.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU.

Obviously this is old ground, but "most" people did not vote Leave. Recent polls have also shown that the numbers have changed, particularly with more people becoming 18 and more older people dying.

There are also a swath of students who fucked up and made it impossible for them to vote as it was out of term time and they left it too late for a postal vote application.

I would be willing to put a bit of money on the result being reversed were it to be put to the country again.

It doesn't really need anyone to change their mind."

I'd put a lot of money on the Leave vote now being bigger

Especially among the young

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time. "

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

i don't see a problem with what heseltine and the lords voted for last night.... and for those people criticising him i am at a loss to work out why...

the lords voted that the commons should have a "substantive" say on the final deal...... why is that an issue?

the commons say they want a vote on what type of deal we get?...... why is that an issue?

the government have said they won't get a say.... they will just get a vote on the final deal... and that will just be "take it or leave it!".... that was not what was originally promised by the government when they fought the A50 case in the supreme court... and when they put thru the A50 bill.....

why should the commons not get a say..... it like the leavers just want to give a blank cheque the a handful of people.....

its not about staying or leaving.... its about proper oversite of the process..

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By *ittleAcornMan
over a year ago

visiting the beach


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain"

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"i don't see a problem with what heseltine and the lords voted for last night.... and for those people criticising him i am at a loss to work out why...

the lords voted that the commons should have a "substantive" say on the final deal...... why is that an issue?

the commons say they want a vote on what type of deal we get?...... why is that an issue?

the government have said they won't get a say.... they will just get a vote on the final deal... and that will just be "take it or leave it!".... that was not what was originally promised by the government when they fought the A50 case in the supreme court... and when they put thru the A50 bill.....

why should the commons not get a say..... it like the leavers just want to give a blank cheque the a handful of people.....

its not about staying or leaving.... its about proper oversite of the process.."

Can't see anything other than a yes or no being practical. If there are lots of aspects of the negotiation to balance against each other, getting an MP consensus would be impossible. It has to be an executive process and then approved if the amendment carries.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then? "

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Knees bend arms stretched tra la la

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?"

Not quite... but the government did an advisory non-binding referendum to gauge the opinions of the public to whether we should remain in the EU or not. The answer they got was "We don't really know, we are split pretty much 50/50". And rather than step back and say... "Oh, well clearly we asked too vague a question and perhaps we should investigate more" they were hounded into to accepting the slim majority and blustering ahead with it.

-Matt

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By *ittleAcornMan
over a year ago

visiting the beach


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?"

Lol, no not quite.

However, one ill-informed knee-jerk result does not appear to me the best approach.

I think one more temperature test before the final act would seem sensible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?

Lol, no not quite.

However, one ill-informed knee-jerk result does not appear to me the best approach.

I think one more temperature test before the final act would seem sensible."

you might have been ill informed, I wasn't

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?

Lol, no not quite.

However, one ill-informed knee-jerk result does not appear to me the best approach.

I think one more temperature test before the final act would seem sensible."

Part of the problem is that both sides in the Referendum debate came out claims that were so wide of the mark.

A decision should never have been made until the EXACT terms of brexit were presented to the public.

Last time I voted with my heart, if I were to be given a second chance based on the details of the terms of leaving, I may well be tempted to change my mind.

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By *ittleAcornMan
over a year ago

visiting the beach


"

you might have been ill informed, I wasn't"

Quite probably not, but I was pointing more towards the large swathes of the country who did not look for facts, but simply believed whatever popped up on Facebook.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

you might have been ill informed, I wasn't

Quite probably not, but I was pointing more towards the large swathes of the country who did not look for facts, but simply believed whatever popped up on Facebook."

you mean like remainers?

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By *ittleAcornMan
over a year ago

visiting the beach


"

you might have been ill informed, I wasn't

Quite probably not, but I was pointing more towards the large swathes of the country who did not look for facts, but simply believed whatever popped up on Facebook.

you mean like remainers?"

sigh.

No I mean like vast numbers on both sides, who did no independent research, and relied on the lies, and misinformation coming from both sides.

Too much of it based on feelings rather than facts.

Now so much of that has been proven to be what it always was, total bollocks, people should be given the opportunity to decide if they still think the same way.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU.

Obviously this is old ground, but "most" people did not vote Leave. Recent polls have also shown that the numbers have changed, particularly with more people becoming 18 and more older people dying.

There are also a swath of students who fucked up and made it impossible for them to vote as it was out of term time and they left it too late for a postal vote application.

I would be willing to put a bit of money on the result being reversed were it to be put to the country again.

It doesn't really need anyone to change their mind."

Recent polls say around 64 to 69% of people just want to get on with Brexit now.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?

Not quite... but the government did an advisory non-binding referendum to gauge the opinions of the public to whether we should remain in the EU or not. The answer they got was "We don't really know, we are split pretty much 50/50". And rather than step back and say... "Oh, well clearly we asked too vague a question and perhaps we should investigate more" they were hounded into to accepting the slim majority and blustering ahead with it.

-Matt"

The answer the public gave was "we want to Leave" and the result was 52% Leave, 48% Remain.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?

Not quite... but the government did an advisory non-binding referendum to gauge the opinions of the public to whether we should remain in the EU or not. The answer they got was "We don't really know, we are split pretty much 50/50". And rather than step back and say... "Oh, well clearly we asked too vague a question and perhaps we should investigate more" they were hounded into to accepting the slim majority and blustering ahead with it.

-Matt

The answer the public gave was "we want to Leave" and the result was 52% Leave, 48% Remain. "

Exactly.

-Matt

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?

Not quite... but the government did an advisory non-binding referendum to gauge the opinions of the public to whether we should remain in the EU or not. The answer they got was "We don't really know, we are split pretty much 50/50". And rather than step back and say... "Oh, well clearly we asked too vague a question and perhaps we should investigate more" they were hounded into to accepting the slim majority and blustering ahead with it.

-Matt"

Very well put. It seems astonishing to me that we are all being led down a road for which there is absolutely no mandate and for which the best possible outcome is a country that will be divided for years.

Heseltine is supporting Parliamentary democracy to ensure that Parliament has a final say on the Brexit deal so that a small group of ideologically driven people cannot drive the country over a cliff edge and leave future generations to deal with the consequences.

It is astonishing to me that a minority of people are so driven to exit the EU at any and all cost that they are actively encouraging recklessness on an industrial scale. What the fuck is wrong with carrying the whole country forward as opposed to pushing an agenda that does not even satisfy all of the Brexit vote, let alone the country as a whole.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?

Not quite... but the government did an advisory non-binding referendum to gauge the opinions of the public to whether we should remain in the EU or not. The answer they got was "We don't really know, we are split pretty much 50/50". And rather than step back and say... "Oh, well clearly we asked too vague a question and perhaps we should investigate more" they were hounded into to accepting the slim majority and blustering ahead with it.

-Matt

Very well put. It seems astonishing to me that we are all being led down a road for which there is absolutely no mandate and for which the best possible outcome is a country that will be divided for years.

Heseltine is supporting Parliamentary democracy to ensure that Parliament has a final say on the Brexit deal so that a small group of ideologically driven people cannot drive the country over a cliff edge and leave future generations to deal with the consequences.

It is astonishing to me that a minority of people are so driven to exit the EU at any and all cost that they are actively encouraging recklessness on an industrial scale. What the fuck is wrong with carrying the whole country forward as opposed to pushing an agenda that does not even satisfy all of the Brexit vote, let alone the country as a whole."

i do get the feeling that the most ardent leavers here secretly actually want no deal at all......

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

It is funny, you only really hear of Heseltine when the issue is one of national interest or cohesion, and invariably he only speaks out when he believes the government have got it wrong and always the calls from the right are the same, shut him up and get rid of him.

He warned that mass unemployment and inner city deprivation would lead to civil unrest and was ignored. Of course when there were riots in 1981 he was appointed to clear up the mess.

He warned that the sale of Westland would seriously weaken the UK defence industry and British Armed Forces and resigned as SoSD. Now it is obvious to any who know the history that the Westland affair was the signal that it was open season on the British Defence industry and today it is virtually nonexistent.

He warned that the Poll Tax would lead to civil unrest and was again ignored.

Now he is warning against leaving the single market and brexit without parliament and the British people having the final say after the exit terms have been agreed.

I wonder how long it will be until people start regretting not listening to him this time?

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"

It is astonishing to me that a minority of people are so driven to exit the EU at any and all cost that they are actively encouraging recklessness on an industrial scale. What the fuck is wrong with carrying the whole country forward as opposed to pushing an agenda that does not even satisfy all of the Brexit vote, let alone the country as a whole."

What specific outcomes would you like to see from the negotiations?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"you have no reason to oppose a second referendum then on reversing the triggering of Article 50, in two years time.

err, yes I do, the same way I would have opposed a second referendum had the vote been to remain

Why, isn't democracy about representing the will of the majority.

On something as big as this it strikes me as sensible to check that will is still the same.

Even David Davis said a democracy that cannot change it's mind ceases to be a democracy.

Every few years we ask if the country wants a different government. Do you think we should just stick to the one answer then?

so what do you suggest? A vote on whether to leave or join the EU every 2 years?

Not quite... but the government did an advisory non-binding referendum to gauge the opinions of the public to whether we should remain in the EU or not. The answer they got was "We don't really know, we are split pretty much 50/50". And rather than step back and say... "Oh, well clearly we asked too vague a question and perhaps we should investigate more" they were hounded into to accepting the slim majority and blustering ahead with it.

-Matt

Very well put. It seems astonishing to me that we are all being led down a road for which there is absolutely no mandate and for which the best possible outcome is a country that will be divided for years.

Heseltine is supporting Parliamentary democracy to ensure that Parliament has a final say on the Brexit deal so that a small group of ideologically driven people cannot drive the country over a cliff edge and leave future generations to deal with the consequences.

It is astonishing to me that a minority of people are so driven to exit the EU at any and all cost that they are actively encouraging recklessness on an industrial scale. What the fuck is wrong with carrying the whole country forward as opposed to pushing an agenda that does not even satisfy all of the Brexit vote, let alone the country as a whole."

No mandate to Leave???? The vote to Leave the EU is the biggest single vote for anything, ever, in the entire history of the UK. If that's not a clear mandate then what is????

Also if people are driven by what you call 'recklessness' to leave at any cost what does that tell you about the EU? The EU must be a monumental fuck up of epic proportions to stoke up this level of opposition towards it and yet the morons in Brussels still carry on as if nothing has happened. In fact even as opposition towards the EU is growing right across the European continent the fuckwits in Brussels still carry on as normal and think the answer is more EU integration, more bureaucracy, and more monetary union. The European people are screaming they want LESS of this shit! The EU refuses to reform and is only stoking up more opposition along this current path that they are on it is frankly astonishing that they cannot see this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU.

Obviously this is old ground, but "most" people did not vote Leave. Recent polls have also shown that the numbers have changed, particularly with more people becoming 18 and more older people dying.

There are also a swath of students who fucked up and made it impossible for them to vote as it was out of term time and they left it too late for a postal vote application.

I would be willing to put a bit of money on the result being reversed were it to be put to the country again.

It doesn't really need anyone to change their mind."
...........These change of mind leavers are as rare as rockin horse shit..i've never come across one.

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By *ittleAcornMan
over a year ago

visiting the beach


"

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU.

Obviously this is old ground, but "most" people did not vote Leave. Recent polls have also shown that the numbers have changed, particularly with more people becoming 18 and more older people dying.

There are also a swath of students who fucked up and made it impossible for them to vote as it was out of term time and they left it too late for a postal vote application.

I would be willing to put a bit of money on the result being reversed were it to be put to the country again.

It doesn't really need anyone to change their mind............These change of mind leavers are as rare as rockin horse shit..i've never come across one."

As I said, it doesn't need anyone to change. A poll of non-voters has found that 45% would now be willing to vote remain, and only 27% would make the effort to vote Leave.

Add to that the fact that many students messed up their opportunity to vote, and the small change in demographics (old people dying, more people turning 18), and Remain would probably just edge it now.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

The vote was 52-48, loads of people who have a stake didn't vote or couldn't vote.

The vote wasn't binding, it was advisory.

The public may be keen on getting on with it but given it now appears 50-52% would vote Remain in a 2nd referendum, so just forgetting about it all as a little bit of a hissy fit and tantrum we were collectively allowed to get out of our system would also be equally as welcomed I expect.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU.

Obviously this is old ground, but "most" people did not vote Leave. Recent polls have also shown that the numbers have changed, particularly with more people becoming 18 and more older people dying.

There are also a swath of students who fucked up and made it impossible for them to vote as it was out of term time and they left it too late for a postal vote application.

I would be willing to put a bit of money on the result being reversed were it to be put to the country again.

It doesn't really need anyone to change their mind............These change of mind leavers are as rare as rockin horse shit..i've never come across one.

As I said, it doesn't need anyone to change. A poll of non-voters has found that 45% would now be willing to vote remain, and only 27% would make the effort to vote Leave.

Add to that the fact that many students messed up their opportunity to vote, and the small change in demographics (old people dying, more people turning 18), and Remain would probably just edge it now."
....Straw clutching.

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By *ittleAcornMan
over a year ago

visiting the beach


"

I thought that most people voted for a brighter future outside the EU. Why has happened since to make anyone want to change their mind ? With a booming stock market and a strongly performing economy it is difficult to see why anyone would change their mind now and want to remain in the EU.

Obviously this is old ground, but "most" people did not vote Leave. Recent polls have also shown that the numbers have changed, particularly with more people becoming 18 and more older people dying.

There are also a swath of students who fucked up and made it impossible for them to vote as it was out of term time and they left it too late for a postal vote application.

I would be willing to put a bit of money on the result being reversed were it to be put to the country again.

It doesn't really need anyone to change their mind............These change of mind leavers are as rare as rockin horse shit..i've never come across one.

As I said, it doesn't need anyone to change. A poll of non-voters has found that 45% would now be willing to vote remain, and only 27% would make the effort to vote Leave.

Add to that the fact that many students messed up their opportunity to vote, and the small change in demographics (old people dying, more people turning 18), and Remain would probably just edge it now.....Straw clutching."

There was only a "straw" in it the first time round...

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

How is it the Government believe the threshold for a strike should require support of at least 40% of those entitled to vote for it to go ahead, yet with such an important change as this, laid out no such threshold and then decide that 37% is sufficient to go ahead with brexit and not only that, but a brexit that does not honour their manifesto commitment of remaining in the Single Market?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"How is it the Government believe the threshold for a strike should require support of at least 40% of those entitled to vote for it to go ahead, yet with such an important change as this, laid out no such threshold and then decide that 37% is sufficient to go ahead with brexit and not only that, but a brexit that does not honour their manifesto commitment of remaining in the Single Market?

"
....And if it was the other way around and remain won...it would not of been a problem..would it....you lost...get over it.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

No answer to the question there then.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West


"How is it the Government believe the threshold for a strike should require support of at least 40% of those entitled to vote for it to go ahead, yet with such an important change as this, laid out no such threshold and then decide that 37% is sufficient to go ahead with brexit and not only that, but a brexit that does not honour their manifesto commitment of remaining in the Single Market?

....And if it was the other way around and remain won...it would not of been a problem..would it....you lost...get over it."

Actually I think that had it been a narrow Remain win it would have been necessary to take on board the Leave arguments and for thevGovt tobring in legislation to address those concerns.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry


"....you lost...get over it."

Jesus wept. I never realised it was a competition. The anti eu faction have been complaining for years. When were they silenced? When were they told to shut up?

One of the most complex macro economic issues put to a referendum by a PM who saw it as an opportunity to silence his euro sceptic critics.

Best of all, its turns out that the leave campaign didn't have a plan other than campaign on lies and appeal to nationalism and populism.

An issue that could see the breakup of the UK, calamitous economic effects amongst others

We have already seen the murder of one MP, a rise in hate crime, frightening headlines.

And that is your contribution to the debate?

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"

Recent polls say around 64 to 69% of people just want to get on with Brexit now. "

You keep quoting this, but "getting on with Brexit" is not the same as getting on with hard Brexit. Do you have some mystical insight just as you claim to "know" that everyone who voted Leave voted for exactly your interpretation of it?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"....you lost...get over it.

Jesus wept. I never realised it was a competition. The anti eu faction have been complaining for years. When were they silenced? When were they told to shut up?

One of the most complex macro economic issues put to a referendum by a PM who saw it as an opportunity to silence his euro sceptic critics.

Best of all, its turns out that the leave campaign didn't have a plan other than campaign on lies and appeal to nationalism and populism.

An issue that could see the breakup of the UK, calamitous economic effects amongst others

We have already seen the murder of one MP, a rise in hate crime, frightening headlines.

And that is your contribution to the debate? "

Leave campaigners had to campaign and make the case for 40 years before a referendum was granted on this issue. I think on that basis it's only fair now we have a period of 40 years pass by before another referendum can be granted on this issue.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"....you lost...get over it.

Jesus wept. I never realised it was a competition. The anti eu faction have been complaining for years. When were they silenced? When were they told to shut up?

One of the most complex macro economic issues put to a referendum by a PM who saw it as an opportunity to silence his euro sceptic critics.

Best of all, its turns out that the leave campaign didn't have a plan other than campaign on lies and appeal to nationalism and populism.

An issue that could see the breakup of the UK, calamitous economic effects amongst others

We have already seen the murder of one MP, a rise in hate crime, frightening headlines.

And that is your contribution to the debate? "

don't worry.... i am sure one of them will be along soon to tell you they had a plan in a big manifesto that we were suppose to believe all along.... but they hired a bus and plastered a big claim on it that we weren't suppose to believe!

i think they are really this worried and want to try and get it done quickly just because i don't think they think they would win it again if it were to happen (which i don't for the record)

see.... the longer it takes, the more scrutiny it gets.... and the more clamour there will be to debate more parts of it... thats why they want it silenced in parliament!

thats why i believe a lot of them want no negoiation and actually want no deal, because no deal gives them another reason to blame the other side.....

its those nasty people on the other side... they were being unreasonable... they didn't give us everything we wanted.....

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By *ammskiMan
over a year ago

lytham st.annes


"The vote was 52-48, loads of people who have a stake didn't vote or couldn't vote.

The vote wasn't binding, it was advisory.

The public may be keen on getting on with it but given it now appears 50-52% would vote Remain in a 2nd referendum, so just forgetting about it all as a little bit of a hissy fit and tantrum we were collectively allowed to get out of our system would also be equally as welcomed I expect. "
What do you mean couldn't vote ?

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

There were millions of people below the very ting age. You would agree they have a stake in this countries future?

There were also millions of foreign nationals who have made their home here who have a stake in its future as well as many U.K. nationals living in the EU some of which weren't allowed to vote.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

Voting age not very ting

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"There were millions of people below the very ting age. You would agree they have a stake in this countries future?

There were also millions of foreign nationals who have made their home here who have a stake in its future as well as many U.K. nationals living in the EU some of which weren't allowed to vote.

"

So you're advocating everyone to have voting rights from birth?

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"There were millions of people below the very ting age. You would agree they have a stake in this countries future?

There were also millions of foreign nationals who have made their home here who have a stake in its future as well as many U.K. nationals living in the EU some of which weren't allowed to vote.

"

That would also stand for a general election, that decides how we run our education, social care, whether we send hundreds of men to their deaths in iraq/ afganistan, taxation, etc etc etc

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham


"There were millions of people below the very ting age. You would agree they have a stake in this countries future?

There were also millions of foreign nationals who have made their home here who have a stake in its future as well as many U.K. nationals living in the EU some of which weren't allowed to vote.

So you're advocating everyone to have voting rights from birth?"

No, I am not. I am stating that these people are stakeholders. They have a stake, an interest in the future of this country. This tends to be forgotten/ignored, especially by the leave side.

The important thing about this is that the referendum was advisory not binding. There was no threshold. For big constitutional changes like this there is and should be a 2/3 or 3/4 majority required to change. That then is sufficient to trump stakeholders and future generations who are unable to vote and it takes away a very tricky responsibility from MPs which I am sure they would be grateful for.

In the absence of that MP's themselves have a responsibility to take these factors into account.

In my opinion most of the disenfranchised would prefer us to Remain. Also a 52-48 and already narrowed gap does not give any mandate for brexit and especially not hard brexit.

To settle the issue and shut up any remoaners once and for all either a second referendum should take place once the shape of an exit agreement is available. Failing that and probably even more preferable, the final decision should rest with parliament in a free and probably secret ballot.

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