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So we are leaving Euratom as well

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By *ubble trouble OP   Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

As well as leaving the EU, Single Market, etc, etc. the Conservatives are "ending Britain’s membership of Euratom – an entirely separate treaty to the EU. The implications of this will be deep and far-reaching for the future of UK’s energy supply, science, industry and workers. There is no political or legal mandate for the UK to leave Euratom, in fact it was barely even a footnote in the referendum campaign, and yet we are heading for a nuclear Brexit.

Brexit will delay new British nuclear power stations, warn experts

Euratom matters for the UK. Signed in 1957 as the European Atomic Energy Community, it is a separate treaty from the EU with the purpose of creating a single market for nuclear knowledge and resources in the peaceful pursuit of science and nuclear energy.

Whilst currently its only full members are EU countries, it is in fact a legally separate organisation to the EU. The UK is a leading member of Euratom, and plays host to one of its most important research institutions – the Joint European Torus (JET), based in Culham, Oxfordshire. JET is performing extraordinary and groundbreaking research in the pursuit of fusion energy, and is part of an EU-wide project to deliver on the vision of this revolutionary, safe and clean energy source. On the way, new technologies, materials and expertise are being developed here.

Euratom also provides safety inspections for all civilian nuclear facilities in the UK, including Hinkley Point B, Sizewell and Torness in Scotland. It is the legal owner of all nuclear material, and is the legal purchaser, certifier and guarantor of any nuclear materials and technologies that the UK purchases. This includes our nuclear trade with the United States.

EU countries in scramble to ‘steal’ UK-based research centres

Read more

This means that 21% of the UK’s electricity generation is based on our membership of Euratom. It means that EDF can rely on secure supply chains for construction at Hinkley Point C and it is responsible for safeguarding inspections. Whether people are in favour of nuclear fission power or not we can all agree we want it to be as safe as possible, which is why leaving Euratom makes no sense.

Our own regulating authorities are not equipped to take over all of Euratom’s safety checks in the UK, and any British scientist will tell you that their work depends on international collaboration that is facilitated by this treaty.

Given this, it is hard to overstate the effect leaving Euratom will have on the UK –and the British people did not give the government a mandate to leave Euratom." Guardian

Fucking madness.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They are dancing with the devil.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

Do not know about this but you seem to make sense,we cannot go completely alone in every area it is not practical to us or to the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I do hope we leave the Eurovision.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was warned something might happen like this at work - ah well looks like the Tories are happy to start the British drain brain earlier than we thought.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

This we're doing voluntarily. We'll be forced to leave a lot of other joint research programs which we will not have the scale to work on alone.

I'm not sure how we compensate for this as that's one of the country's genuine strengths. Joint, international R&D which is often hosted here...

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Brexit has highlighted a modern day phenomena that disregards deep and multi dimensional thought processes in favour of simple observations and simple conclusions.

In my opinion, today will go down in history as the day that dumbed down Britain completely lost its collective sense. It feels almost that we are heading into the Crimea to take on the pesky Russkies, or sailing off to the Cape to put the Bowrs in their place, or indeed merrily marching to Maginot to put Gerry in his place with a ridiculous sense of invincibility and a criminal lack of awareness.

Leaving the single market and the customs union will fuck with the British businesses the are committed to Europe and jobs will be lost. The plethora of other aligned European associations that we will also leave will leave the UK completely isolated in other aspects. Controlling immigration by default will result in skills shortages and reduced tax revenues.

The deep rooted consequences of Brexit will not provide anything better for Britain other than an appeasement to dick heads that we don't have to be equals with other Nationalities any more. The poor will be poorer, the racists will find someone else to blame and the rich will have long isolated themselves from the Brexit effect anyway. The very best that will happen is...... Britain will be isolated, poorer, more heavily taxed and still bitterly divided.

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By *ubble trouble OP   Couple
over a year ago

Manchester


"Do not know about this but you seem to make sense,we cannot go completely alone in every area it is not practical to us or to the EU."

Indeed, whatever side of the Brexit debate (and you and I are on opposite sides) it surely doesn't make sense to withdraw from international scientific research.

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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

From reading the white paper it appears we are leaving because we are members via the EU and then after brexit we will rejoin and if you read the white paper the government is fully committed to maintaining R&D in this country and internationally

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

I think there are a lot of assumptions doing the rounds inside our government.

We are leaving the EU, ok.

We are leaving the single market, ok.

We are leaving the customs union, ok.

We are leaving Euroatom, ok.

But...

We are going to have a special deal for the motor and financial industries, somehow I think not. I tend to believe the leaders of the EU and their chief negotiator who say that there will be no cherry picking by us.

We are going to rejoin Euroatom, has anyone asked them if they will want us back? Again I'm betting that the government haven't bothered asking the question.

I think that many are in for a rude awakening when Article 50 is triggered and the realities of our situation start becoming clear. I have a nasty feeling that where we should be trying to make friends all Ms May is doing is alienating the very people she needs to be on our side.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"I do hope we leave the Eurovision."

Isn't Israel in Eurovision?

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France


"I do hope we leave the Eurovision.

Isn't Israel in Eurovision? "

And Australia

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France


"I think there are a lot of assumptions doing the rounds inside our government.

We are leaving the EU, ok.

We are leaving the single market, ok.

We are leaving the customs union, ok.

We are leaving Euroatom, ok.

But...

We are going to have a special deal for the motor and financial industries, somehow I think not. I tend to believe the leaders of the EU and their chief negotiator who say that there will be no cherry picking by us.

We are going to rejoin Euroatom, has anyone asked them if they will want us back? Again I'm betting that the government haven't bothered asking the question.

I think that many are in for a rude awakening when Article 50 is triggered and the realities of our situation start becoming clear. I have a nasty feeling that where we should be trying to make friends all Ms May is doing is alienating the very people she needs to be on our side."

Don't forget that the UK will have to leave the EMA too.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

It is my belief that after Article 50 is triggered our government will quickly find out that there will be extensions to the 2 year countdown to leaving and the only deal on offer will be keep paying in the same amount and introduce all EU regulations to have access to EU markets or live with the WTO rules. The question is will the government be honest and tell us or will they try and hide what is happening from us?

Of course if they choose the latter which I think is likely how will the businesses affected by the changes react to being kept in the dark? I have a sneaking suspicion that many will not react well and that much of Canary Wharf is going to be vacant office space very quickly.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

There will be a security/intelligence deal.

There will be a deal on tariff free trade of manufactured goods because that is mutually beneficial.

Finance and services? Nah.

R&D will be case by case and unlikely to be headquartered here.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"There will be a security/intelligence deal."

Will there? I have a sneaking suspicion that someone will screw it up and that we will be seeing our customs post in Calais being shut down. I have an awful feeling that we will find that Ms May's red, white and blue brexit will turn out to be a tricolour rather than Union Flag.


"There will be a deal on tariff free trade of manufactured goods because that is mutually beneficial."

Again, will there? I have a sinking feeling when it comes to manufactured goods. I suspect that there will be no deal and that the only thing we will be exporting to the EU tariff free will be factories and jobs.


"Finance and services? Nah."

At least here we agree.


"R&D will be case by case and unlikely to be headquartered here."

When the EU funding goes so will the researcher institutes and their staff. The real question is how long until the likes of airbus and Rolls Royce relocate their manufacturing operations from the UK to somewhere inside the EU?

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"There will be a security/intelligence deal.

Will there? I have a sneaking suspicion that someone will screw it up and that we will be seeing our customs post in Calais being shut down. I have an awful feeling that we will find that Ms May's red, white and blue brexit will turn out to be a tricolour rather than Union Flag.

There will be a deal on tariff free trade of manufactured goods because that is mutually beneficial.

Again, will there? I have a sinking feeling when it comes to manufactured goods. I suspect that there will be no deal and that the only thing we will be exporting to the EU tariff free will be factories and jobs.

Finance and services? Nah.

At least here we agree.

R&D will be case by case and unlikely to be headquartered here.

When the EU funding goes so will the researcher institutes and their staff. The real question is how long until the likes of airbus and Rolls Royce relocate their manufacturing operations from the UK to somewhere inside the EU?"

You are probably right about Calais unless we pay for it in cash. Other security and intelligence is too important not to agree to work together on.

Tariff fee tease is relatively easy to negotiate although we'll have to meet EU standards. It's an easy win-win.

I think short to medium term it will be business as usual for private companies, but long-term new investment will go to the bigger market. It will be a long, slow running down.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"I do hope we leave the Eurovision.

Isn't Israel in Eurovision?

And Australia

"

I thought you were taking the piss, but no, I checked, and that well know "European" country Australia (the one with the kangeroos) was indeed in Eurovision

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham


"I do hope we leave the Eurovision.

Isn't Israel in Eurovision?

And Australia

I thought you were taking the piss, but no, I checked, and that well know "European" country Australia (the one with the kangeroos) was indeed in Eurovision "

And they nearly won!

"And now from Brisbane, the 2017 Eurovision contest"

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"I do hope we leave the Eurovision.

Isn't Israel in Eurovision?

And Australia

I thought you were taking the piss, but no, I checked, and that well know "European" country Australia (the one with the kangeroos) was indeed in Eurovision "

Oh crumbs... can you imagine the civil unrest in the UK if we attempted to leave Eurovision? Considering 7.1M people watched it on TV last year, that is 21% of the turnout for the referendum!

-Matt

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France


"

You are probably right about Calais unless we pay for it in cash. ."

" Calais" is actually nothing to with the EU;

" juxtaposition of controls " is part of the Le Touquet agreement. Whichbis an extension of the Sangatte protocol.And applies to passport controls.

It provides for exchanges passport controls at the Eurotunnel, at the terminals of the Eurostar in London, Ashford, Ebbsfleet , at Lille, Calais, Paris and Brussels .it also allies juxtaposed controls at a number of ports.

Except for Eurostar and the tunnel, it doesn't include customs control, which remains within the home country.

The Sangatte protocol and the Le Touquet agreement are bilateral treaties with France.

( and an extension in Belguim for Eurostar.

So in theory it is unaffected by BREXIT.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London


"

You are probably right about Calais unless we pay for it in cash. .

" Calais" is actually nothing to with the EU;

" juxtaposition of controls " is part of the Le Touquet agreement. Whichbis an extension of the Sangatte protocol.And applies to passport controls.

It provides for exchanges passport controls at the Eurotunnel, at the terminals of the Eurostar in London, Ashford, Ebbsfleet , at Lille, Calais, Paris and Brussels .it also allies juxtaposed controls at a number of ports.

Except for Eurostar and the tunnel, it doesn't include customs control, which remains within the home country.

The Sangatte protocol and the Le Touquet agreement are bilateral treaties with France.

( and an extension in Belguim for Eurostar.

So in theory it is unaffected by BREXIT.

"

We are all about bilateral agreements now and I don't see a political benefit to France to Do us any favours...

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"" Calais" is actually nothing to with the EU;

" juxtaposition of controls " is part of the Le Touquet agreement. Whichbis an extension of the Sangatte protocol.And applies to passport controls.

It provides for exchanges passport controls at the Eurotunnel, at the terminals of the Eurostar in London, Ashford, Ebbsfleet , at Lille, Calais, Paris and Brussels .it also allies juxtaposed controls at a number of ports.

Except for Eurostar and the tunnel, it doesn't include customs control, which remains within the home country.

The Sangatte protocol and the Le Touquet agreement are bilateral treaties with France.

( and an extension in Belguim for Eurostar.

So in theory it is unaffected by BREXIT.

"

I think you miss the point, although the Calais agreement is bilateral there can be little doubt that it owes it's existence to our membership of the EU. I for one believe that it will not survive our EU departure regardless of how much we are willing to pay to keep it. I have a very nasty feeling that there are going to be many other costs too and that most of them will remain hidden until we have left the EU building and suddenly find that club membership got us a whole lot more than we ever realised.

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

Doesn't make much difference.

And would probably cost more to change the arrangement than to keep it as it is.

And changing the passport controls back just causes delays; especially on the train.

With a train you need to do both in and out passports at one end or the other, not have to stop at each border. And preferably all as part of the check in / ticketing process before the journey.

the only difference is that Brits won't be able to go through the EU gate.

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

And it is an advantage to the French to have inward passports to France checked in UK.

The same happens with passports at Dublin if you are flying to the US.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"We are all about bilateral agreements now and I don't see a political benefit to France to Do us any favours..."

Now there is a thought...

EU countries cant do bilateral agreements with non EU countries. Does this mean the Sangatte and Good Friday agreements lapses when we leave the EU? I wonder how many other reciprocal agreements there are floating around that also cease as soon as we leave the club...

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France


"We are all about bilateral agreements now and I don't see a political benefit to France to Do us any favours...

Now there is a thought...

EU countries cant do bilateral agreements with non EU countries. Does this mean the Sangatte and Good Friday agreements lapses when we leave the EU? I wonder how many other reciprocal agreements there are floating around that also cease as soon as we leave the club..."

Actually they can; because the Sangatte and Le Touquet agreements are completely ( legally ) separate from any EU agreement. They are purely bilateral. And can be legally set up despite the EU. As can any such agreement.

In the same way that the UK /France dual taxation treaty is entirely separate from EU laws. ( and the UK /Germany one, and UK /Spain one, and all the rest.

Sangatte or Le Touquet can only be undone by either nation giving 2 years notice to the other.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"Actually they can; because the Sangatte and Le Touquet agreements are completely ( legally ) separate from any EU agreement. They are purely bilateral. And can be legally set up despite the EU. As can any such agreement.

In the same way that the UK /France dual taxation treaty is entirely separate from EU laws. ( and the UK /Germany one, and UK /Spain one, and all the rest.

Sangatte or Le Touquet can only be undone by either nation giving 2 years notice to the other."

Not so, just checked. EU law says that no member state can enter into a bilateral agreement with a non member state that may have any effect on trade or taxation. So all those taxation treaties are definitely on their way out and I would suggest so is the Sangatte and eurofighter agreement as well as most scientific collaborations (all have possible trade implications).

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"Actually they can; because the Sangatte and Le Touquet agreements are completely ( legally ) separate from any EU agreement. They are purely bilateral. And can be legally set up despite the EU. As can any such agreement.

In the same way that the UK /France dual taxation treaty is entirely separate from EU laws. ( and the UK /Germany one, and UK /Spain one, and all the rest.

Sangatte or Le Touquet can only be undone by either nation giving 2 years notice to the other.

Not so, just checked. EU law says that no member state can enter into a bilateral agreement with a non member state that may have any effect on trade or taxation. So all those taxation treaties are definitely on their way out and I would suggest so is the Sangatte and eurofighter agreement as well as most scientific collaborations (all have possible trade implications). "

It may say 'can't enter' but does it mean has to leave when we leave? ie. if those agreements were already entered into whilst Uk was an EU member, do they remain valid when we leave?

-Matt

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"It may say 'can't enter' but does it mean has to leave when we leave? ie. if those agreements were already entered into whilst Uk was an EU member, do they remain valid when we leave?

-Matt"

If I had to lay a bet I would go with 'no'. I have a feeling that whereas ms May will be looking to spend the 2 years from triggering article 50 negotiating a favourable trade deal the EU who set the agenda will be spending it deciding which if any of the bilateral deals are written into EU law and how to amend them so that the EU come out with the best of the deal. Of course Ms May has said she is willing to walk away with no deal if she does not get what she wants, I expect that we will find 18 months down the line from triggering article 50 (EU have said 18 months to work out an agreement, 6 months to get it through the European parliament) that her bluff will be called and that the EU decide no agreement means no agreements period.

I hope I am wrong, but I fear that I am not

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

Sangatte and the le Touquet treaty are legal under U.K. Law as they are simply concerning the ovation of border controls and customs checks ( in and out of the Schengen zone.

In the same way as the Northern Irekand /ROI border agreement is also bilateral.

The Le Touquet agreement ( and Sangatte) are not about taxation or trade , so are of no interest to the EU.

On the other hand, agreements over Typhoon/Eurofighter, the Army Ajax programme, and massive amounts of other military and naval projects will become subject to interesting taxes unless special cases are made.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

Odd. Nobody seems to think it's a good idea. No leavers about?

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"Sangatte and the le Touquet treaty are legal under U.K. Law as they are simply concerning the ovation of border controls and customs checks ( in and out of the Schengen zone.

In the same way as the Northern Irekand /ROI border agreement is also bilateral.

The Le Touquet agreement ( and Sangatte) are not about taxation or trade , so are of no interest to the EU.

On the other hand, agreements over Typhoon/Eurofighter, the Army Ajax programme, and massive amounts of other military and naval projects will become subject to interesting taxes unless special cases are made."

Again you seem to have missed my point.

It makes no difference what UK law says, if the EU decide that they break EU regulations (and I think that is what the EU will decide) then either they get adopted by the EU or they go. Now I am betting that somewhere down the negotiating line someone on our side doing a bit of grandstanding (like May with the state visit for donny the nonce) will open their trap in such a way that the EU ends up saying get on with it but your not having any of that, you want a hard brexit enjoy the landing. That is of course if May hasn't already done that with her we will be talking trade with the Donald.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I do hope we leave the Eurovision.

Isn't Israel in Eurovision?

And Australia

I thought you were taking the piss, but no, I checked, and that well know "European" country Australia (the one with the kangeroos) was indeed in Eurovision

And they nearly won!

"And now from Brisbane, the 2017 Eurovision contest""

Wow Eurovision is so corrupt we need to protest!

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France


"Sangatte and the le Touquet treaty are legal under U.K. Law as they are simply concerning the ovation of border controls and customs checks ( in and out of the Schengen zone.

In the same way as the Northern Irekand /ROI border agreement is also bilateral.

The Le Touquet agreement ( and Sangatte) are not about taxation or trade , so are of no interest to the EU.

On the other hand, agreements over Typhoon/Eurofighter, the Army Ajax programme, and massive amounts of other military and naval projects will become subject to interesting taxes unless special cases are made.

Again you seem to have missed my point.

It makes no difference what UK law says, if the EU decide that they break EU regulations (and I think that is what the EU will decide) then either they get adopted by the EU or they go. Now I am betting that somewhere down the negotiating line someone on our side doing a bit of grandstanding (like May with the state visit for donny the nonce) will open their trap in such a way that the EU ends up saying get on with it but your not having any of that, you want a hard brexit enjoy the landing. That is of course if May hasn't already done that with her we will be talking trade with the Donald."

By the way; there is a typo in my list you quote; the Sangatte and Le Touquet treaties are legal under EU law is what I meant, because they are diplomatic accords, not trade/tax accords, thus the EU has no say in them.

In the same way that the Rebubkic of Ireland has exactly the same deal with US customs posts at Dublin on a bilateral agreement; its " legal" under the EU because the EU has no say in it, and no legal right to interfere.

And btw I don't want a hard Brexit; I don't want any fucking BREXIT.

Even though the EU will be better off without the UK.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"By the way; there is a typo in my list you quote; the Sangatte and Le Touquet treaties are legal under EU law is what I meant, because they are diplomatic accords, not trade/tax accords, thus the EU has no say in them.

In the same way that the Rebubkic of Ireland has exactly the same deal with US customs posts at Dublin on a bilateral agreement; its " legal" under the EU because the EU has no say in it, and no legal right to interfere.

And btw I don't want a hard Brexit; I don't want any fucking BREXIT.

Even though the EU will be better off without the UK.

"

Typos do not matter. And I am not questioning your personal views on brexit.

What I am saying is anything that makes entry from a non EU country to the EU easier can be seen as having possible economic benefits and therefore if the EU decide to make them a part of the exit negotiations then they will be regardless of their status now.

It is my belief that many things we believe to be totally separate from our membership of the EU will in the not too distant future be very much front and centre in all negotiations.

Even tonight an EU official said that the talks will be about divorce terms not trade deals and what follows that is for after we leave. I just think we all need to get realistic about brexit, jingoism and an attitude of weer British and all we need to do is shout and wave the flag will not work as we are about to find out.

I hope I am wrong but I have a nasty feeling that I am underestimating exactly how bad things are going to get and would advise anyone who lives outside the UK and has an opportunity to gain an EU passport from elsewhere to do so quickly before the window of opportunity is closed. If I am wrong it will have cost you a £100 or so, if I am right and you don't it may cost you the right to stay living in the EU. Is that a risk you want to take?

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