FabSwingers.com forum: Brexit - how will we know it's worked?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Next question to the Brexit lobby:

How will we know Brexit has worked?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tillup4funMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

How indeed no matter what happens all good things will have nothing to do with Brexit and all bad things will be because of Brexit. But hey that,s life.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How indeed no matter what happens all good things will have nothing to do with Brexit and all bad things will be because of Brexit. But hey that,s life.

"
..

..spot on.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How indeed no matter what happens all good things will have nothing to do with Brexit and all bad things will be because of Brexit. But hey that,s life.

or maybe reverse the statement. But hey thats life lol

which ever way it goes nobody would admit they were wrong.they will spend half their lives on here arguing.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?"

Everyone deported who was not born in this country.

Complete shutdown on immigration

Economy at a standstill through staff shortages

Islam banned

Nigel Farage appointed God

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

Everyone deported who was not born in this country.

Complete shutdown on immigration

Economy at a standstill through staff shortages

Islam banned

Nigel Farage appointed God"

20% of the way there already then!

Come on Brexiters, help us out here please!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tillup4funMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?"

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

Right now the whole country needs to get together and support Brexit as long the EU can see we as a country are divided we have no chance of getting a good deal, so if the remainers REALLY want the country to succeed accept the referendum result and get behide your country.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When remainers climb out of their prams..pick up their toy's..get back in their prams and start accepting democracy.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

I think there is a chance of that happening when the hypocrisy of the Leave position is acknowledged so that we can all actually take a pragmatic view of the way forwards.

For example. Brexiters want to leave as a means of controlling immigration and yet insist that the UK economy will grow outside of the EU. All economics aside, how can this be possible? It is a complete contradiction because the economy can't grow without people to fuel it. Another contradiction is that the UK is going to be a champion of free trade to the world whilst turning its back on the free trade arrangement that it already has with its closest neighbours. Notwithstanding the fact that a free trade deal with India and China (as examples) would devastate low tech industry in the U.K.

So, before the more thoughtful and considerate amongst the population get coerced into supporting the revolution, they perhaps need to understand the logic behind some fairly obvious contradictions that already exist despite being preparing to leave for the last seven months. There is no leadership in this country and intelligent people as a rule will not follow a dogged ideology just to pacify the revolutionaries who have a cause in their life, but no plan to effect it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Neither brexiter or remainer will know for decades if ever. Its a value judgement based on subjective opinions.Also you have to factor in too many variables over the next decade unconnected to brexit.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Neither brexiter or remainer will know for decades if ever. Its a value judgement based on subjective opinions.Also you have to factor in too many variables over the next decade unconnected to brexit."
.

Fine points indeed young man.... Something I've noticed is the most shall we say passionate lot on both sides seem to be aged between 35 and 55 not quite young enough to not give a shit and not quite old enough to not give a shit

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"When remainers climb out of their prams..pick up their toy's..get back in their prams and start accepting democracy."

So, I take it you don't have a clue then?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

So what you're saying is this:

We should leave the EU but we don't know what we hope to achieve by doing so.

Is that a reasonable summation of the picture?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Only a small thread 4 hours in.

Some of the usual snide sniping.

No success criteria mooted.

Worrying! Do we really mean we have no idea what we expect success to look like?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tillup4funMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

So what you're saying is this:

We should leave the EU but we don't know what we hope to achieve by doing so.

Is that a reasonable summation of the picture?"

Like most remainers you try and twist things what is good for me may not be good for you. You asked how will we know if it is a success I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see.

Success comes in many forms so tell me what success is to you?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

So what you're saying is this:

We should leave the EU but we don't know what we hope to achieve by doing so.

Is that a reasonable summation of the picture?

Like most remainers you try and twist things what is good for me may not be good for you. You asked how will we know if it is a success I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see.

Success comes in many forms so tell me what success is to you?"

OK, you said "How can anyone know", I said "We should leave the EU but we don't know what we hope to achieve by doing so." Where have I twisted that? If it's not what you meant perhaps you should be more clear.

You now say "I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see" which seems to agree.

What success is to me doesn't seem especially relevant, as I've made abundantly clear many times, I believe Brexit to be a disaster. But I'm trying to get an understanding of the Brexit point of view by asking here what success would be and in another thread what the timescale would be. Simple questions, I would think it reasonable to expect that people who voted leave what know what they think success would look like.

So why take cheap shots at a perfectly reasonable question?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

So we voted leave with no idea what we wanted?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tillup4funMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

So what you're saying is this:

We should leave the EU but we don't know what we hope to achieve by doing so.

Is that a reasonable summation of the picture?

Like most remainers you try and twist things what is good for me may not be good for you. You asked how will we know if it is a success I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see.

Success comes in many forms so tell me what success is to you?

You now say "I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see" which seems to agree.

So why take cheap shots at a perfectly reasonable question? "

You did,nt ask what we hope to achieve you asked how will we know it has worked. 2 very different questions that's how you twist things.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

So what you're saying is this:

We should leave the EU but we don't know what we hope to achieve by doing so.

Is that a reasonable summation of the picture?

Like most remainers you try and twist things what is good for me may not be good for you. You asked how will we know if it is a success I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see.

Success comes in many forms so tell me what success is to you?

You now say "I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see" which seems to agree.

So why take cheap shots at a perfectly reasonable question?

You did,nt ask what we hope to achieve you asked how will we know it has worked. 2 very different questions that's how you twist things."

Good grief, is that what you're reduced to? OK, you're right, happy? If that is what you nean by 'twist' gods help us all!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Perhaps we should hack back the original question - as realistically it will take at least 8-10 years to see if brexit is a success or failure by any measure. (unless of course leaving is a truly cataclysmic failure or raging success in which case 4 years in it might be fairly clear) Or if the average working class to lower middle class person just gets pissed off more as Westminster continues to shit on them and living standards decline and nothing truly significant happens.

More accurately we'll be able to tell success vs failure when we can compare variables of living quality, wages, job quality and education options from population samples of those born in: EU member generation, EU member-brexit generation, and post Brexit generation.

That will all take a lot of time, so most of the focus will be on the changes in living standards between the EU member generation and Brexit generation - at least for the next decade or two.

That said, there are issues which will dwarf Brexit in scales of it's impact. Such as the automation of jobs - whereby AI and robotics will make most un-specialised workers obsolete. And realistically given the rates of tech advancement, there wont be the need for all those unemployed people to be put into programming and robotics, as it is highly likely someone will create programming which can order a machine to repair another machine.

Ironically, those who saw brexit as a chance to save their jobs by reducing the amount of low skill immigration into the country - which is a respectable desire, are the ones who will loose out in the long run anyway unless they commit to retraining. The loss of low skill jobs is inevitable.

So I've gone way off....so let me clarify, there is no point in asking what defines a successful brexit at the moment, we'll know for certain in several years if it is, or is not, or if when we do leave the country falls into an economic crisis.

However, it is worth asking dedicated leavers, what are the actual objectives of leaving?

Other than just leave.

Are we looking to reduce immigration to just those with work permits, or can people from other countries study here too - if so can they work and study after.

How do we handle trade deals? China and India have both said that trading with them will require us to relax how strict we are with student visa's from their nations - basically they have said they want us to allow their students to stay a while after their studies.

Indian PM Modi has already told Mrs May that a free trade deal with his nation will include some element of free movement.

So, what are the specific objectives?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

So what you're saying is this:

We should leave the EU but we don't know what we hope to achieve by doing so.

Is that a reasonable summation of the picture?

Like most remainers you try and twist things what is good for me may not be good for you. You asked how will we know if it is a success I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see.

Success comes in many forms so tell me what success is to you?

You now say "I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see" which seems to agree.

So why take cheap shots at a perfectly reasonable question?

You did,nt ask what we hope to achieve you asked how will we know it has worked. 2 very different questions that's how you twist things."

They are two parts of the same process. There is no point in doing something if you have no targets to aim for.

It's this kind of rational that makes the 'less dedicated' remainers reluctant to get on board with brexit.

You must have targets and objectives to attract people, and you must use these to examine how successful the idea and process was.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

Everyone deported who was not born in this country.

Complete shutdown on immigration

Economy at a standstill through staff shortages

Islam banned

Nigel Farage appointed God

20% of the way there already then!

Come on Brexiters, help us out here please!"

Feeding time for trolls has passed.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So we voted leave with no idea what we wanted?"
Some had no idea ,they just wanted change for the sake of it.I think other forces will eclipse brexit over time.Economic and political upheavals are inevitable over the next decade.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In its simplest form the main objective is to make our 'rulers' more accountable. If a government brings out a policy like say the poll tax that the people object to, they can elect another party/government to remove that policy. Now if the EU comes up with a policy like the poll tax or the Euro or Schengen or whatever and our government at the time agrees to it and it is implemented but then the people decide that it isn't working or they don't like it, how do they remove it? They can't, they/we are fucked

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, do any remainers think that is a good thing and worth keeping? The silence is deafening

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In its simplest form the main objective is to make our 'rulers' more accountable. If a government brings out a policy like say the poll tax that the people object to, they can elect another party/government to remove that policy. Now if the EU comes up with a policy like the poll tax or the Euro or Schengen or whatever and our government at the time agrees to it and it is implemented but then the people decide that it isn't working or they don't like it, how do they remove it? They can't, they/we are fucked"
You Seem to have a very modest objective.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Considering that there has just been a referendum about our relationship with the EU and other countries have had and will have similar exercises, how exactly is anyone fucked?

The EU is far more accountable d mocraticslly than the UK but you can't see that because your agenda is blinkered.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Considering that there has just been a referendum about our relationship with the EU and other countries have had and will have similar exercises, how exactly is anyone fucked?

The EU is far more accountable d mocraticslly than the UK but you can't see that because your agenda is blinkered."

thank you. It takes a referendum to leave as the only way of changing anything

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?"

Umm... by the usual democratic process? You know, the elected MEPs we send there.

Kind of like what we do here in the UK with our elected MPs.

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oorland2Couple
over a year ago

Stoke

"How indeed no matter what happens all good things will have nothing to do with Brexit and all bad things will be because of Brexit. But hey that,s life.

..spot on."

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Brexit as a concept could never pass a SMART analysis.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oorland2Couple
over a year ago

Stoke

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

Umm... by the usual democratic process? You know, the elected MEPs we send there.

Kind of like what we do here in the UK with our elected MPs.

But it's run by unelected dictators like Juncker and his advisors, sorry I meant money sucking unelected cronies

-Matt"

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oorland2Couple
over a year ago

Stoke

"Perhaps we should hack back the original question - as realistically it will take at least 8-10 years to see if brexit is a success or failure by any measure. (unless of course leaving is a truly cataclysmic failure or raging success in which case 4 years in it might be fairly clear) Or if the average working class to lower middle class person just gets pissed off more as Westminster continues to shit on them and living standards decline and nothing truly significant happens.

That will all take a lot of time, so most of the focus will be on the changes in living standards between the EU member generation and Brexit generation - at least for the next decade or two.

However, it is worth asking dedicated leavers, what are the actual objectives of leaving?

Other than just leave.

Are we looking to reduce immigration to just those with work permits, or can people from other countries study here too - if so can they work and study after.

Indian PM Modi has already told Mrs May that a free trade deal with his nation will include some element of free movement.

So, what are the specific objectives?"

The EU has not delivered any improvements to Living standards in the U.K., as they keep far more of our money than receive, unlike Romania and the other eastern shit holes

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 07/01/17 22:43:06]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 07/01/17 22:44:15]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I feel it has now become a dangerous game of poker whereby one side is going to end up quite embarrassed.

Are we really as indispensable to the EU as we think? I'm not sure, but for our future, I hope so.

Notwithstanding domestic issues, for example the potential of Scottish Independence therefore severely weakening the UK, or border issues in Ireland, the most important thing is the economy.

I think if we do come out of this with a better deal, it spells the end for the European project. Given their response to Brexit, the leaders of such project cannot afford to lose face or else lose all credibility amongst its leaders.

I understand people's views on immigration, despite myself having a liberal view. I think if you work, pay your taxes, and contribute, you're welcome.

One item to note is that the states we wish to negotiate with on new trade deals (i.e. China, India, the Gulf) will almost certainly require a relaxation of visa rules - with combined populations four times that of Europe.

Here's to a hopeful 2017!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

The EU has not delivered any improvements to Living standards in the U.K., as they keep far more of our money than receive, unlike Romania and the other eastern shit holes"

It is incredibly sad that after 40 years of close European ties from the EEC and its evolution into the EU of which the UK has always been a highly respected partner that we can see (and hear) opinions like you have just stated that are so fundamentally wrong, in so many ways that it is embarrassing. This is not about you BTW, far too many people hold the same views.

Firstly, not that our living standards have anything to do with the EU but let's say they did. You are old enough to remember life in the UK prior to our EEC/EU Membership in the early 1970's when this country was known as the sick man of Europe. The UK has massively benefited from our ties with Europe and so has everyone that lives in this country be it from deregulation of air fares, to deregulate trading agreements to environmental benefits and not least the benefit of the complete ease and freedom to travel. That said, your point about living standards has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with our own national governments but to to say there has been no improvements since the 1970's is not even close to a factual statement.

The financial statement is hardly a surprise in as much as if people think that the EU is responsible for living standards and accuse the EU of not improving them despite living standards bing immeasurably improved since the 1970's, it is no surprise that the payment of EU fees is viewed from a purely one dimensional aspect. EU Membership adds a multitude of differently dimensional benefits to the whole landscape of the United Kingdom, not least in the ability of our national government to collect greater taxes becaus of its ability to trade unfettered with almost 500,000,000, as well as all of the other personal, commercial and corporate benefits. The fact is hat you are annoyed because Britain benefits do much and has such a vibrant economy and therefore pays more is demonstrative of an unfortunate ignorance that far too many have in this country.

Fear not though, we are leaving and those who voted to leave and who's one dimensional view of the world carried, will soon get their wishes as the revolution comes to pass. I hope you all enjoy the ride

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

Quite the opposite. If those that voted BREXIT really love their country then ditch the BREXIT plan and the totally unnecessary risks involved to peoples livelihoods, financial security and jobs, and join those of us who really love our country and continue to make it one of the most successful, dynamic and resourceful countries not only in the EU but the world.

BREXITers, if they really love their country, have to start asking themselves what is more important to them. Sticking 'one up' to some imagined elite or the wealth and prosperity of their country and the people living in it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

See that's just not true; if the EU came up with something that the UK didn't like, all that had to happen was for the UK to veto it.

End .

UK politicians and government have always been accountable; unfortunately the UK population never held them to account;

And more importantly, UK MPs seldom held the government to account.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

So what you're saying is this:

We should leave the EU but we don't know what we hope to achieve by doing so.

Is that a reasonable summation of the picture?

Like most remainers you try and twist things what is good for me may not be good for you. You asked how will we know if it is a success I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see.

Success comes in many forms so tell me what success is to you?

You now say "I don't know like you I,ll have to wait and see" which seems to agree.

So why take cheap shots at a perfectly reasonable question?

You did,nt ask what we hope to achieve you asked how will we know it has worked. 2 very different questions that's how you twist things."

Feel free to answer either question or both then. If you can.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?"

The EU doesn't have a government because it's not a sovereign state. It's governance is ultimately controlled by the democratically elected governments of its member states. There are legal procedures that any member state can take to leave the EURO zone, the Schengen agreement, the EU its self (article 50) and various other parts of the EU, EFTA, EEA and customs area. How well any of theses leave mechanism works remains to be found out but they are there.

Still waiting to hear from any BREITer what a successful BREXIT is actually meant to look like and still waiting to hear from any BREXITer just what exactly leaving the EU is meant to achieve. And just saying 'taking back control' really doesn't tell us anything.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

the EU Commission acts as a cabinet government with 1 member from each state. Each member has to swear an oath to protect the interests of the EU above the interests of their state. So it doesn't matter who the people/governments put in there their hands are tied aren't they? And you seriously think this is a good thing for individual countries?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

Do just remind me what the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament do and what functions they fulfil. What does the Commission do too?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

How can anyone know when remainers will just say that would have been better if we had stayed in the EU no matter what happens.

OK. So what is Brexit and what am I supporting?

Every political party in the UK tells us every few years tells us that they want the best for our country and we should get behind them. They have some policies and a plan which I can choose to support or not.

What arw the policies or plans for me to support?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Every political party in the UK tells us every few years tells us that they want the best for our country and we should get behind them. They have some policies and a plan which I can choose to support or not.

What arw the policies or plans for me to support?"

Every political party publishes a manifesto prior to every general election. They tell you what a political party will do if they get into power. It is easy for anyone to read them, if you do not know what policies and plans you are supporting that says a lot about you.

However neither the leave or remain camps published any manifesto, the remain camp can claim that remaining was the whole plan, the leave camp did and do not have that option. I for one want to know what 52% of those who voted voted for. I have been waiting 7 months to learn and still have no idea!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago

glasgow

What arw the policies or plans for me to support?

The main thing is,you had a vote.

You live in a democracy,the majority rules,democracy won,your side lost.

So the first thing you have to know is,accept the democratic vote.

Whinging losers,are just so sad,and pathetic.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

Especially when they have been like that for 40 years, n'est pas?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

What arw the policies or plans for me to support?

The main thing is,you had a vote.

You live in a democracy,the majority rules,democracy won,your side lost.

So the first thing you have to know is,accept the democratic vote.

Whinging losers,are just so sad,and pathetic.

So you are saying it doesn't matter if you know what it is you are voting for, just vote? And you somehow think that is democracy? Very strange.

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"Next question to the Brexit lobby:

How will we know Brexit has worked?

I'm sure that you'll be the first to tell us how bad it's been from whichever one of the other 27 states of utopia that you decide to move to.

It's going to take years and decades before we see where our country stands in the world. I'll be dead but until then, I'm accepting the vote and going to work to make a success of this country.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

The main thing is,you had a vote.

You live in a democracy,the majority rules,democracy won,your side lost.

So the first thing you have to know is,accept the democratic vote.

Whinging losers,are just so sad,and pathetic.

Again, the vote was:

Remain in the EU

Leave the EU

WE ARE LEAVING. I UNDERSTAND.

Nobody knows any information than that and it is arrogant to suggest that they know what that vote implies with regard to what form leaving the EU takes.

Please let me know if Norway and Switzerland are in the EU.

Please let me know what their relationship with the EU is.

Please, now, tell me what "leave the EU" means.

Please have the courtesy not to call people names and also that those who voted remain believe that was the best outcome for themselves and the UK.

Please also have the courtesy to accept that everyone has every right to debate and fight for the version of leave that they feel is in the best interests of the UK. That is democracy.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hree steps to heavenMan
over a year ago

Saint Albans

What arw the policies or plans for me to support?

The main thing is,you had a vote.

You live in a democracy,the majority rules,democracy won,your side lost.

So the first thing you have to know is,accept the democratic vote.

Whinging losers,are just so sad,and pathetic.

So you are saying it doesn't matter if you know what it is you are voting for, just vote? And you somehow think that is democracy? Very strange.

-Matt"
It is all irrelevant now as the vote was seven months ago so who cares . Sometimes in life you can spend too much time analysing data which is historic in any event .

The performance of the Stock Exchange ( adjusted for external events ) and low or no immigration will be a good enough measure for me .

A strongly performing stock exchange means a buoyant economy which in turn means that most people will be better off . The taxes collected will fund the less well off if that is considered necessary.

Low or no immigration means that we have put our efforts into utilising the existing work force in the UK in the most efficient manner possible . Relying on immigration is only a short term fix.

Luckily we have many world leading technology companies and automation will mean a reduction in the necessity for unskilled labour .

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Low or no immigration means that we have put our efforts into utilising the existing work force in the UK in the most efficient manner possible . Relying on immigration is only a short term fix."

You do know that there were nearly 300,000 non EU, non refugee legal immigrants to the UK last year? I take it you also know that the net EU figure was about 30,000 because nearly 300,000 Brits went to live in other EU countries.

So good luck with your zero or near zero immigration.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Low or no immigration means that we have put our efforts into utilising the existing work force in the UK in the most efficient manner possible . Relying on immigration is only a short term fix.

So good luck with your zero or near zero immigration."

And he's going to get one hell of a shock when the UK end up inevitably relaxing visa requirements to India, China, and the like as part of the trade deals we start forging with them.

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hree steps to heavenMan
over a year ago

Saint Albans

"Low or no immigration means that we have put our efforts into utilising the existing work force in the UK in the most efficient manner possible . Relying on immigration is only a short term fix.

So good luck with your zero or near zero immigration.

And he's going to get one hell of a shock when the UK end up inevitably relaxing visa requirements to India, China, and the like as part of the trade deals we start forging with them.

-Matt"
Why would anyone get a shock if we have a long term planning process in place in order to become self sufficient . You might be shocked but that does not apply to everyone.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

I'm often left wondering with you whether you're deliberately spreading information that you know to false or whether you're just a victim of the false information that someone else told you and you're simply passing on what you believe to be true. Either way what you say about the EU commission is simply not true.

The EU commission does act as a cabinet government. Its nearest equivalent would actually be the civil service heads of governmental departments. The members of the commission do not have to swear an oath to protect the interests of the EU above the interests of their state. They do take an oath pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate.This basically means they have to act impartially and is the minimum that we would expect from our own civil service. The democratic accountability of the EU lies within the council of ministers and the European Parliament. It does lie in the European Commission any more than democratic accountability lies within the civil service in this country.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Low or no immigration means that we have put our efforts into utilising the existing work force in the UK in the most efficient manner possible . Relying on immigration is only a short term fix.

So good luck with your zero or near zero immigration."

dont be spoiling his la la land utopian dream with facts now..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

If this is the state of political debate in this country then I'm not surprised it's broken.

Excepting a few (reasoned) posts, shame on the lot of you; miserable, short-sighted fools.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

285,000 in

95,000 out

Net immigration 190,000.

Sourced from full facts Com.

With this disclaimer.

The numbers are uncertain

These figures have a large margin for error because they’re mainly based on surveys of passengers at airports. Net migration from the rest of the EU in any one year could usually be around 28,000 more or less than the estimates.

That means that small changes in immigration from one period to the next might not actually represent what’s really happening.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

What arw the policies or plans for me to support?

The main thing is,you had a vote.

You live in a democracy,the majority rules,democracy won,your side lost.

So the first thing you have to know is,accept the democratic vote.

Whinging losers,are just so sad,and pathetic.

It's not a football match. It's not game over when the whistle blows. In fact it's not a game where one side wins and the other side looses. The reality is is that we either all win or we all loose.

If you seriously think that those who believe that leaving the EU is bad for Britain should not put their argument forward simply because the other side won a vote then you simply don't understand what democracy really is.

It also shows an incredible level of hypocrisy as leavers have been winging and moaning for 41 years since the first referendum back in 1975.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

. And by taking that oath to respect the treaties of the EU it can mean that at times if circumstances change those treaties take precedence over things that might disadvantage their own countries, no?

The commission ALONE is responsible for drawing up new laws and legislation etc and then the council and parliament get to vote on it. So basically the commission (government) are elected/put in place every 5 years with no manifesto and neither you nor I will know what there plans will be. How can that be good?

Now the question I asked was how if having approved legislation a country later decides that that legislation is not working for them, how do they get out of it? Take free movement, which the people of the UK have decided they don't want. Can they elect new commissioners and enough MEP's who are willing to carry out their wishes and change legislation or is the only option to leave the EU?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Low or no immigration means that we have put our efforts into utilising the existing work force in the UK in the most efficient manner possible . Relying on immigration is only a short term fix.

So good luck with your zero or near zero immigration.

And he's going to get one hell of a shock when the UK end up inevitably relaxing visa requirements to India, China, and the like as part of the trade deals we start forging with them.

-Matt Why would anyone get a shock if we have a long term planning process in place in order to become self sufficient . You might be shocked but that does not apply to everyone. "

*whoosh*

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When remainers climb out of their prams..pick up their toy's..get back in their prams and start accepting democracy."

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

That's not how it works;

Individual countries propose new ideas for the EU, via their representatives on the council of ministers;

If those ideas are acceptable, then they are passed to the commission to draw up the proposed laws.

Those are then debated, amended, eventually approved by MEPs;

Then individual governments are invited to approve ( or otherwise ) through their own national process.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That's not how it works;

Individual countries propose new ideas for the EU, via their representatives on the council of ministers;

If those ideas are acceptable, then they are passed to the commission to draw up the proposed laws.

Those are then debated, amended, eventually approved by MEPs;

Then individual governments are invited to approve ( or otherwise ) through their own national process.

but what happens if a government no longer approves?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"... So basically the commission (government) are elected/put in place every 5 years with no manifesto and neither you nor I will know what there plans will be. How can that be good?"

No good at all and Commission members are appointed (not elected) after being recommended by each member state e.g. pro-EU, mortgage and passport fiddling dross like Mandelson.

Britain has had three recessions since 1975 (not including the one we were in when we joined) as MEMBERS of the corrupt EC/EEC/EU.

And as the ECB continues to print 80Bn EU-face-saving Euros in QE per month (since March 2015!) I'll reverse the question and ask after forty years when will we know when the EU has worked?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"If this is the state of political debate in this country then I'm not surprised it's broken.

Excepting a few (reasoned) posts, shame on the lot of you; miserable, short-sighted fools.

You might as well argue about what colour to paint this 8-sided wheel you're making.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

Sorry, bloody auto text. The first line of my reply was meant to read 'The EU doesn't act as a cabinet government'.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

The referendum vote was not about whether we should increase or decrease immigration from the EU into the UK. It was about whether we should remain in the EU or not. Even if most of those who voted leave did so in order to reduce immigration from the EU, with such a small majority voting for leave it would only have taken 1 in 50 of them to have voted leave for some other reason for there not to be a mandates to reduce immigration from the EU. So, unless you can put your hand on your heart and say that you personally that every single person who voted leave did so because they wanted to reduce immigration from the EU, your argument about the people of the UK have decided they don't want is simply supposition.

But, that aside, if we want to change the rules of the EU, as with any organisation, we have to persuade the other members of the organisation that the changes are beneficial to the organisation. We've done this many times in the 40+ years that we have been members of the EU/EC/EEC. The two biggest examples of this are the creation of the Single Market and enlargement of EU into Eastern Europe. Both of those where British ideas that the British government pioneered through the EU (incidentally they were both ideas originally put forward by Margaret Thatcher, hardly a liberal, leftwing, lovey in anyone's book). It's called international cooperation. I know it's a difficult concept for some right wing isolationist to get their heads around but it's the way most of the world works these days. You get change by cooperating with your partners and working with them for the mutual benefit of all.

With regard to your comments on commissioners. It is surly only right that members of the commission are unbiased in executing the duties of the job they have been given to do, in just the same way as British Civil Servants are unbiased in executing the duties of their job. It would be totally unacceptable and unworkable for a British Civil Servant to always side with Labour or Conservative and it would be even more unacceptable and unworkable for German commissioners to always side with Germany, Spanish Commissioners to always side with Spain etc; regardless of the merits of any suggestions put forward. Civil Servants, whether in the EU, the UK, or anywhere else which purports to be democratic, have to execute their unbiasedly.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Just want to say that this is a very, very good post which is not only detailed, but it also encapsulates more of the contradictions of the Brexit position. Brits can of course be impartial as civil servants but not those pesky untrustworthy foreigners

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

oh dear

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

The EU commission doesn't act as a cabinet government. Its nearest equivalent would actually be the civil service heads of governmental departments. The members of the commission do not have to swear an oath to protect the interests of the EU above the interests of their state. They do take an oath pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate. This basically means they have to act impartially and is the minimum that we would expect from our own civil service. The democratic accountability of the EU lies within the council of ministers and the European Parliament. It does lie in the European Commission any more than democratic accountability lies within the civil service in this country.

pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

The referendum vote was not about whether we should increase or decrease immigration from the EU into the UK. It was about whether we should remain in the EU or not. Even if most of those who voted leave did so in order to reduce immigration from the EU, with such a small majority voting for leave it would only have taken 1 in 50 of them to have voted leave for some other reason for there to be no mandates to reduce immigration from the EU. So, unless you can put your hand on your heart and say that you personally know that every single person who voted leave did so because they wanted to reduce immigration from the EU, your argument what 'people of the UK have decided they don't want' is simply supposition.

With regard to your comments on commissioners. It is surly only right that members of the commission are unbiased in executing the duties of the job they have been given to do, in just the same way as British Civil Servants are unbiased in executing the duties of their job. It would be totally unacceptable and unworkable for a British Civil Servant to always side with Labour or Conservative and it would be even more unacceptable and unworkable for German commissioners to always side with Germany, Spanish Commissioners to always side with Spain etc; regardless of the merits of any suggestions put forward. Civil Servants, whether in the EU, the UK, or anywhere else, which purports to be democratic, have to execute their duties unbiasedly.

oh dear

Que?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

The referendum vote was not about whether we should increase or decrease immigration from the EU into the UK. It was about whether we should remain in the EU or not. Even if most of those who voted leave did so in order to reduce immigration from the EU, with such a small majority voting for leave it would only have taken 1 in 50 of them to have voted leave for some other reason for there to be no mandates to reduce immigration from the EU. So, unless you can put your hand on your heart and say that you personally know that every single person who voted leave did so because they wanted to reduce immigration from the EU, your argument what 'people of the UK have decided they don't want' is simply supposition.

With regard to your comments on commissioners. It is surly only right that members of the commission are unbiased in executing the duties of the job they have been given to do, in just the same way as British Civil Servants are unbiased in executing the duties of their job. It would be totally unacceptable and unworkable for a British Civil Servant to always side with Labour or Conservative and it would be even more unacceptable and unworkable for German commissioners to always side with Germany, Spanish Commissioners to always side with Spain etc; regardless of the merits of any suggestions put forward. Civil Servants, whether in the EU, the UK, or anywhere else, which purports to be democratic, have to execute their duties unbiasedly.

oh dear

Que?"

entiendes nada

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

It's not going to work.

You can tell that by the clusterfuck it already is.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

The referendum vote was not about whether we should increase or decrease immigration from the EU into the UK. It was about whether we should remain in the EU or not. Even if most of those who voted leave did so in order to reduce immigration from the EU, with such a small majority voting for leave it would only have taken 1 in 50 of them to have voted leave for some other reason for there to be no mandates to reduce immigration from the EU. So, unless you can put your hand on your heart and say that you personally know that every single person who voted leave did so because they wanted to reduce immigration from the EU, your argument what 'people of the UK have decided they don't want' is simply supposition.

With regard to your comments on commissioners. It is surly only right that members of the commission are unbiased in executing the duties of the job they have been given to do, in just the same way as British Civil Servants are unbiased in executing the duties of their job. It would be totally unacceptable and unworkable for a British Civil Servant to always side with Labour or Conservative and it would be even more unacceptable and unworkable for German commissioners to always side with Germany, Spanish Commissioners to always side with Spain etc; regardless of the merits of any suggestions put forward. Civil Servants, whether in the EU, the UK, or anywhere else, which purports to be democratic, have to execute their duties unbiasedly.

oh dear

Que?

entiendes nada"

I think the correct phrase you're looking for might be "no te entiendo nada" or even "No sé nada". Better still a combination of them both with a final conclusion:

"No sé nada, no entiendo nada, no soy nada"

;-)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

The referendum vote was not about whether we should increase or decrease immigration from the EU into the UK. It was about whether we should remain in the EU or not. Even if most of those who voted leave did so in order to reduce immigration from the EU, with such a small majority voting for leave it would only have taken 1 in 50 of them to have voted leave for some other reason for there to be no mandates to reduce immigration from the EU. So, unless you can put your hand on your heart and say that you personally know that every single person who voted leave did so because they wanted to reduce immigration from the EU, your argument what 'people of the UK have decided they don't want' is simply supposition.

With regard to your comments on commissioners. It is surly only right that members of the commission are unbiased in executing the duties of the job they have been given to do, in just the same way as British Civil Servants are unbiased in executing the duties of their job. It would be totally unacceptable and unworkable for a British Civil Servant to always side with Labour or Conservative and it would be even more unacceptable and unworkable for German commissioners to always side with Germany, Spanish Commissioners to always side with Spain etc; regardless of the merits of any suggestions put forward. Civil Servants, whether in the EU, the UK, or anywhere else, which purports to be democratic, have to execute their duties unbiasedly.

oh dear

Que?

entiendes nada

I think the correct phrase you're looking for might be "no te entiendo nada" or even "No sé nada". Better still a combination of them both with a final conclusion:

"No sé nada, no entiendo nada, no soy nada"

;-)

took you a while to look that up. I speak it fluently thanks

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

You're multi lingual - English, Spanish and Bullshit!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Come on, anybody? How do we change the government of the EU if we don't like what they are doing?

pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate

oh, so the other day they didn't have a government but now they do

The referendum vote was not about whether we should increase or decrease immigration from the EU into the UK. It was about whether we should remain in the EU or not. Even if most of those who voted leave did so in order to reduce immigration from the EU, with such a small majority voting for leave it would only have taken 1 in 50 of them to have voted leave for some other reason for there to be no mandates to reduce immigration from the EU. So, unless you can put your hand on your heart and say that you personally know that every single person who voted leave did so because they wanted to reduce immigration from the EU, your argument what 'people of the UK have decided they don't want' is simply supposition.

With regard to your comments on commissioners. It is surly only right that members of the commission are unbiased in executing the duties of the job they have been given to do, in just the same way as British Civil Servants are unbiased in executing the duties of their job. It would be totally unacceptable and unworkable for a British Civil Servant to always side with Labour or Conservative and it would be even more unacceptable and unworkable for German commissioners to always side with Germany, Spanish Commissioners to always side with Spain etc; regardless of the merits of any suggestions put forward. Civil Servants, whether in the EU, the UK, or anywhere else, which purports to be democratic, have to execute their duties unbiasedly.

oh dear

Que?

entiendes nada

I think the correct phrase you're looking for might be "no te entiendo nada" or even "No sé nada". Better still a combination of them both with a final conclusion:

"No sé nada, no entiendo nada, no soy nada"

;-)

took you a while to look that up. I speak it fluently thanks"

Of course I looked it up, although I did already know thar nada was nothing.

I don't doubt your intelligence, in fact it's clear to me that you're definitely way above the average level, especially on theses BREXIT threads. However even intelligent people get things wrong sometimes and do really stupid things.

Trust me on that, I know from my own personal experience.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"285,000 in

95,000 out

Net immigration 190,000.

Sourced from full facts Com.

With this disclaimer.

The numbers are uncertain

That means that small changes in immigration from one period to the next might not actually represent what’s really happening."

Nice disclaimer, however I'll accept audited the government numbers over a site who asks people at airports what they are doing entering or leaving the UK.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hanedogMan
over a year ago

llanelli

The moment we leave !!!!! Thats when we know its worked. . Eu was a good thing at first, we as a country benefited alot but I feel we have had the best of it and now to still be apart of it will destroy what we are as a country ... think ten years on ......thats the Great Britain I want my children to live in . Its all good

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Just imagine how it will be when we leave the EU...

Money for nothing

High wages

Zero unemployment

No funny accents and brown skin

Strong pound

Booming economy

Free trade with everyone

His Onnipotence Nige de la Farage appointed God

Ah.... all our problems solved and no more foreigners to make us feel uncomfortable - especially those that show us up by doing well and creating jobs and paying top rate tax.

Then again........

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?

Everyone deported who was not born in this country.

Complete shutdown on immigration

Economy at a standstill through staff shortages

Islam banned

Nigel Farage appointed God"

Does this mean communion will be 2 pints of lager and a packet of crisps?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

[Removed by poster at 10/01/17 14:23:45]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

So, as far as I can see absolutely no indication yet of what outcome for UK citizens will have made all this crap from leaving the EU worthwhile

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

The EU has not delivered any improvements to Living standards in the U.K., as they keep far more of our money than receive, unlike Romania and the other eastern shit holes"

So you think that the only benefit of joining any organisation is if they give you more money than they pay you?

No other benefits from increased trade, common regulations and laws, coordinated research?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

""... So basically the commission (government) are elected/put in place every 5 years with no manifesto and neither you nor I will know what there plans will be. How can that be good?"

No good at all and Commission members are appointed (not elected) after being recommended by each member state e.g. pro-EU, mortgage and passport fiddling dross like Mandelson.

Britain has had three recessions since 1975 (not including the one we were in when we joined) as MEMBERS of the corrupt EC/EEC/EU.

And as the ECB continues to print 80Bn EU-face-saving Euros in QE per month (since March 2015!) I'll reverse the question and ask after forty years when will we know when the EU has worked?

EU Commisioners are the appointees of member states. The sovereign powers. Any legislation that they propose has to be passed by elected MEPs and the Ministers of sovereign states in the Council. What's to rant about with that? Anything they come up with is only passed by people whom we have voted for.

If you don't like who they are then tough. I don't like our current government who didn't have a policy on leaving the EU in their manifesto nor said anything about introducing more grammar schools or increasing A&E waiting times.

So you are essentially saying that because membership of the EU has not prevented recession in the UK (just like everywhere else) and is persuing the same QE policy as the UK has it's a failure and hasn't helped the UK economy in any way?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

""... So basically the commission (government) are elected/put in place every 5 years with no manifesto and neither you nor I will know what there plans will be. How can that be good?"

No good at all and Commission members are appointed (not elected) after being recommended by each member state e.g. pro-EU, mortgage and passport fiddling dross like Mandelson.

Britain has had three recessions since 1975 (not including the one we were in when we joined) as MEMBERS of the corrupt EC/EEC/EU.

And as the ECB continues to print 80Bn EU-face-saving Euros in QE per month (since March 2015!) I'll reverse the question and ask after forty years when will we know when the EU has worked?

has it fuck. I'd like you to explain how?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

has it fuck. I'd like you to explain how?"

I don't think that the expletive was strictly necessary. Do you?

Explain what?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

has it fuck. I'd like you to explain how?

I don't think that the expletive was strictly necessary. Do you?

Explain what?"

sorry, I was just exasperated. How the EU has helped the UK economy?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

sorry, I was just exasperated. How the EU has helped the UK economy?"

I appreciate that.

I made a few suggestions in my post above the one you replied to.

Bear in mind that we will have to replicate existing EU bureaucracy and structures and regulation to police our own trade agreements. Cost unknown.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

but what happens if a government no longer approves?"

For completeness, here's what the EU thinks happens in the creation of laws:

"The Commission has the right of initiative to propose laws for adoption by the European Parliament and the Council of the EU (national ministers). In most cases, the Commission makes proposals to meet its obligations under the EU treaties, or because another EU institution, country or stakeholder has asked it to act.

From April 2012, EU citizens may also call on the Commission to propose laws (European Citizens’ Initiative).

Before making proposals, the Commission consults widely so that stakeholders' views can be taken into account. In general, an assessment of the potential economic, social and environmental impact of a given piece of legislation act is published along with the proposal itself.

The principles of subsidiarity and proportionality mean that the EU may legislate only where action is more effective at EU level than at national, regional or local level, and then no more than necessary to attain the agreed objectives.

Once EU legislation has been adopted, the Commission ensures that it is correctly applied by the EU member countries."

It is repealed in the same way.

However, this is distinct from treaty law in which something like free movement was agreed. This is an agreement between the member states. It's what creates the EU igiants principles and the framework that it functions in. So, like any treaty changing it is rather a big deal. We did agree to it as a country though.

The more we discuss this the more apparent it is that most of the things that people are annoyed about were negotiated or agreed to by our own government so I'm not sure how giving them more power improves our lot. Just a thought

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

sorry, I was just exasperated. How the EU has helped the UK economy?

I appreciate that.

I made a few suggestions in my post above the one you replied to.

Bear in mind that we will have to replicate existing EU bureaucracy and structures and regulation to police our own trade agreements. Cost unknown."

If the EU had never existed, would we have done any less trade with our European neighbours and would we have done more trade with the rest of the world? I believe the answers are no and yes, so the EU has held us back

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"If the EU had never existed, would we have done any less trade with our European neighbours and would we have done more trade with the rest of the world? I believe the answers are no and yes, so the EU has held us back"

If you like.

It isn't possible to argue with "belief". That's why we are where we are I guess. Go hum

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

sorry, I was just exasperated. How the EU has helped the UK economy?

I appreciate that.

I made a few suggestions in my post above the one you replied to.

Bear in mind that we will have to replicate existing EU bureaucracy and structures and regulation to police our own trade agreements. Cost unknown.

You really need to back that belief up with either some facts or logical reasoning. For example I believe that the trade we do with Europe is higher than it would have been if we had not been in the EU/EC/EEC because generally, if you decrease tariffs and harmonise regulations and make it easier to move people and goods between different places, the level of economic activity and subsequent trade between them increases. That is what the EU has done so it's reasonable to believe, having taken the action required to increase trade within the EU, that the level of trade is higher than it would have been otherwise. There is also no reasonable reason to believe that are trade with the rest of world would be significantly higher than it currently is if we were outside the EU; unless we had made similar arrangements with some other countries as we currently have with the EU.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you like.

It isn't possible to argue with "belief". That's why we are where we are I guess. Go hum

What else do we have? About how things might have been? You can't tell me I'm wrong.

What I can tell you for sure is that the EU is creating an economic disaster zone and leaving before the rest will give us an advantage when it collapses completely. But, carry on wearing the blinkers if it makes you feel better

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?"
It is being an independent nation again,not being answerable to a there courts etc,well it is or me

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I mean, come on, I'm no fan of Brexit but presumably some Brexiter knows when it will have worked? There must be some goals, some success criteria?It is being an independent nation again,not being answerable to a there courts etc,well it is or me"

We are and always have been an independent nation and "their" Courts as you call them would be unlikely to have any direct on you as a person if you lived to be 500 years old. Unlike the U.K. courts where we could relatively easily end up either being grateful for or being hauled into.

The vision of success that I believe most Brexiters are looking for will sadly be a huge anti climax and particularly so if EU immigration is replaced by Asian immigration, austerity continues and the great expectations that so many have fail to materialise.

I mean think about it...

A stronger economy than we have today but with a reduced workforce to fuel it by restricting immigration. Champions of free trade to the far world and abandoning free trade with our closest neighbours. Reduced tax receipts, more NHS agony and a likely break up of the United Kingdom.

Or not?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

If you like.

It isn't possible to argue with "belief". That's why we are where we are I guess. Go hum

What else do we have? About how things might have been? You can't tell me I'm wrong.

Who's really wearing the blinkers here. If the EU does actually completely collapse it will be disaster for the UK whether we're actually in the EU or not. The EU is our largest trading partner and, even if drops by 10% as a direct result of BREXIT it will still be largest trading partner. If completely collapses that's going to lead to and even bigger loss of trade to an extent that would totally dwarf that already inflicted by BREXIT its self. And it wouldn't stop just at European trade. The EU is also the largest export market for most of the rest of the world to. A complete collapse of the EU would seriously effect every nation around the world that trades with the EU, leaving them all poorer and subsequently less able to afford our goods and services also. If you really believe that the EU is heading for complete collapse then surely, if you care about the people of your own country and their wealth, the only sensible thing to do is every thing you possibly can to avoid its collapsed and that can only be done from within the EU its self. Leaving the EU and hopping that if, or when, it finally collapses, it won't effect us is simply living in a fools paradise.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"But surely, we must have some idea of how we'll know it has worked?

I don't know what country you live in but the country I live is already an independent nation, has been since 1066 and can't become one again because it already is one.

I am not answerable to any foreign court, either in the EU or any other foreign country, except when I choose to spend time in those foreign countries. If you feel you are answerable to some EU or other foreign court maybe you could tell which court you feel you are answerable to and where, outside of the UK, this court sits?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

If you like.

It isn't possible to argue with "belief". That's why we are where we are I guess. Go hum

What else do we have? About how things might have been? You can't tell me I'm wrong.

Who's really wearing the blinkers here. If the EU does actually completely collapse it will be a disaster for the UK whether we're actually in the EU or not. The EU is our largest trading partner and, even if trade drops by 10% as a direct result of BREXIT it, will still be largest our trading partner. If the EU did completely collapses that would lead to an even bigger loss of trade to an extent that would totally dwarf any already inflicted by BREXIT its self. And it wouldn't stop just at European trade. The EU is also the largest export market for most of the rest of the world to. A complete collapse of the EU would seriously effect every nation around the world that trades with the EU, leaving them all poorer and subsequently less able to afford our goods and services also. If you really believe that the EU is heading for complete collapse then surely, if you care about the people of your own country and their wealth, the only sensible thing to do is every thing you possibly can to avoid its collapsed and that can only be done from within the EU its self. Leaving the EU and hopping that if, or when, it finally collapses, it won't effect us is simply living in a fools paradise.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you like.

It isn't possible to argue with "belief". That's why we are where we are I guess. Go hum

What else do we have? About how things might have been? You can't tell me I'm wrong.

what loss of trade thats already been inflicted by Brexit?

there will be no fewer countries, no less people and no smaller market when the EU is gone, its just the name of a corrupt organisition its not Europe. You have fallen for the same rubbish you probably fell for before the referendum. Yes there will be some market upheaval and panic but that will soon settle down. Sometimes things need to be knocked down to be rebuilt properly

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

Actually we are answerable to US courts if any of our money passed through the USA or they believe we have done something that they don't like.

Our (UK) government agreed to reduce the bar to extradition.

Bloody EU. Why did they let us do that?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

what loss of trade thats already been inflicted by Brexit?

Wow. Believe

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex & Bridgend

"Next question to the Brexit lobby:

How will we know Brexit has worked?

When a big red bus starts to tour the country with a damn great slogan painted on the side saying Brexit has worked. Unless I see that, I shant be convinced

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

If you like.

It isn't possible to argue with "belief". That's why we are where we are I guess. Go hum

What else do we have? About how things might have been? You can't tell me I'm wrong.

Who's really wearing the blinkers here. If the EU does actually completely collapse it will be a disaster for the UK whether we're actually in the EU or not. The EU is our largest trading partner and, even if trade drops by 10% as a direct result of BREXIT it, will still be our largest trading partner. If the EU completely collapses that's going to lead to and even bigger loss of trade to an extent that would totally dwarf that already inflicted by BREXIT its self. And it wouldn't stop just at European trade. The EU is also the largest export market for most of the rest of the world to. A complete collapse of the EU would seriously effect every nation around the world that trades with the EU, leaving them all poorer and subsequently less able to afford our goods and services also. If you really believe that the EU is heading for complete collapse then surely, if you care about the people of your own country and their wealth, the only sensible thing to do is every thing you possibly can to avoid its collapsed and that can only be done from within the EU its self. Leaving the EU and hopping that if, or when, it finally collapses, it won't effect us is simply living in a fools paradise.

what loss of trade thats already been inflicted by Brexit?

there will be no fewer countries, no less people and no smaller market when the EU is gone, its just the name of a corrupt organisation, its not Europe. You have fallen for the same rubbish you probably fell for before the referendum. Yes there will be some market upheaval and panic but that will soon settle down. Sometimes things need to be knocked down to be rebuilt properly "

I have already clearly stated the reasoning as to why I believe that the EU has increased the levels of trade between its members. If you believe it hasn't then, rather than just saying you don't believe it has, why don't you tell us the reasoning behind your belief. Tell us how putting tariffs on trade, restricting the movement of goods, services, capital and people within the current EU/EFTA/EEA area is going to actually increase the levels of trade within that area.

Then you go on to say that the EU is a corrupt organisation but give no examples of any corrupt activity.

TBH it seems like you're the one that might have been fooled during the referendum because you just seem to recite the same old rubbish that BREXITers and leavers said during the referendum but when pushed to explain what you actually mean either say nothing, simply repeat what you already said or start off on another, usually unfounded, rant about something else that you 'believe' to be wrong with the EU.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think that rather than worry about the out or in bit ! We should try to workout how WE are going to make it work ?

Why does it look to a casual bystander that most of the ppl who fought for this to happen have spoke the words " oh fuck what do we do now ????" And left the problem at other people's feet ??

It's not going to take just one party to get this sorted but something that everyone needs input into ?

I know it's not going to happen because people find it easier to criticise the ones that have been left with it ! And to give views on what they think ppl would like to hear isn't going to get us back to the great part of Britain ??

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"I think that rather than worry about the out or in bit ! We should try to workout how WE are going to make it work ?

Why does it look to a casual bystander that most of the ppl who fought for this to happen have spoke the words " oh fuck what do we do now ????" And left the problem at other people's feet ??

It's not going to take just one party to get this sorted but something that everyone needs input into ?

I certainly agree.

Hence the question how do you incorporate the wishes of the 48% who voted to remain within the negotiating position.

If their views are simply ignored then the country will permanently remain divided. That requires discussion and compromise.

Shouting "Brexit means Brexit", "out means out", "stop whining", "get behind the UK", "stop talking the UK down" doesn't really help. Could we park that from now on? Pretty please

I've also asked this in other threads but could some of the leave supporters provide an idea of a scenario of leaving the EU that might work well for everyone?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The saying look before you leap comes to mind ?

The thought of us being stand alone do as we please is great !

But I truest don't think anyone actually thought about the how ??

The arguement in both ways was good and very entertaining but don't believe that either lot knew what to do if either leave or stay had won ?

Just wish intelligent ? People would think about the how's before the why's ??

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"The saying look before you leap comes to mind ?

The thought of us being stand alone do as we please is great !

But I truest don't think anyone actually thought about the how ??

The arguement in both ways was good and very entertaining but don't believe that either lot knew what to do if either leave or stay had won ?

Just wish intelligent ? People would think about the how's before the why's ??"

I think that remain was the status quo and continuing to fight for and negotiate less waste and more responsiveness to the effects of individuals in the same way as is done now. Rather slowly.

Leave is, well, leave. How and to what end I don't know and why is standing alone good?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The saying look before you leap comes to mind ?

The thought of us being stand alone do as we please is great !

But I truest don't think anyone actually thought about the how ??

The arguement in both ways was good and very entertaining but don't believe that either lot knew what to do if either leave or stay had won ?

Just wish intelligent ? People would think about the how's before the why's ??

I think that remain was the status quo and continuing to fight for and negotiate less waste and more responsiveness to the effects of individuals in the same way as is done now. Rather slowly.

Leave is, well, leave. How and to what end I don't know and why is standing alone good?"

Maybe direct that question to the people of the former USSR or Yugoslavia

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The saying look before you leap comes to mind ?

The thought of us being stand alone do as we please is great !

But I truest don't think anyone actually thought about the how ??

The arguement in both ways was good and very entertaining but don't believe that either lot knew what to do if either leave or stay had won ?

Just wish intelligent ? People would think about the how's before the why's ??

I think that remain was the status quo and continuing to fight for and negotiate less waste and more responsiveness to the effects of individuals in the same way as is done now. Rather slowly.

Leave is, well, leave. How and to what end I don't know and why is standing alone good?

Maybe direct that question to the people of the former USSR or Yugoslavia"

You think Brexit will lead to war and ethnic cleansing, and you still voted for it?