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"How will Brexit help improve the performance of the healthcare system: medical care, mental health, community support and elderly care? https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deficits-nhs-2016 http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2016/02/15/nhs-agrees-five-year-plan-address-unacceptable-mental-health-failings/ http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/publications/health-priorities-next-government-2015-2020" Surely only time will tell | |||
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"If we throw away freedom of movement then the NHS will very quickly have a staffing crisis." Very quickly indeed. Of course, we're going to allow NHS workers in, they're all 'good'immigrants  | |||
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"How will Brexit help improve the performance of the healthcare system: medical care, mental health, community support and elderly care? https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deficits-nhs-2016 http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2016/02/15/nhs-agrees-five-year-plan-address-unacceptable-mental-health-failings/ http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/publications/health-priorities-next-government-2015-2020" why? Is it improving at the moment? | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment?" Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. | |||
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"If we throw away freedom of movement then the NHS will very quickly have a staffing crisis." It's a ticking time bomb....... | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens." How will it make it worse? | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse?" Staffing....... | |||
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"The OP was 6 hours ago and not one brexiter has come on and said the NHS will get £350 million more a week. Or indeed suggested there will be any money left in the economy. How telling. Yet another indication they knew it was bullshit, didn't care, bit like Parliamentary Sovereignty etc. It was all about those fucking different people being here. " That might be because no Brexiter believes that the NHS will be better off by £350 million a week. | |||
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"Why not?" It might be because your vision of a Brexiter is somewhat different to the reality? | |||
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"My vision???? Why did the Leave Campaign even put it on the side of the bus then? Maybe it's all going to Nissan now. " That would be because they over egged the pudding. Just as the Remain campaign did. Your mistake is believing that voters believed the rubbish fed to them from both sides. | |||
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"If we throw away freedom of movement then the NHS will very quickly have a staffing crisis." The other side of the equation is that we should be training a sufficient number of UK citizens to match demand . Using imported labour can hardly be considered to be a long term solution. We should be making better use or training skilled nursing staff and become less dependent on GPs. | |||
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"If we throw away freedom of movement then the NHS will very quickly have a staffing crisis. The other side of the equation is that we should be training a sufficient number of UK citizens to match demand . Using imported labour can hardly be considered to be a long term solution. We should be making better use or training skilled nursing staff and become less dependent on GPs." Indeed, we should. But we are not. Not only have the government made cuts to medical training, but just look at the Junior Doctor fiasco with Jeremy Hunt. Not exactly inspiring more students to go into the medical field, is it? Not to mention there would be a lead time of, I guess, 6 years before they qualify. At least. -Matt | |||
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"Over egging the pudding is saying things like 'vote brexit and the markets might tumble immediately to such an extent I may have to do an emergency budget' as a prediction and finding that the markets did crash, then recovered somewhat thanks to the Bank of England taking some swift steps and the markets thinking, 'hang on, we don't know what Brexit means yet, its possible we will get a soft brexit or no brexit yet' and recovering thanks also to other global circumstances. Like saying Turkey's membership was imminent, saying £350m when it isn't and saying it will go to the NHS when it won't is a flat out lie, designed to appeal to just enough Labour voters. " Why would anyone have any interest in what was said on the side of a bus .? Brexit was a once in a life time opportunity to vote on issues such as border control , unnecessary EU bureaucracy and no longer having to adhere to unnecessary EU regulations such as driver qualification cards , the requirement to have one can prevent people from working . Issues with the health service have to be addressed independently of Brexit . A good starting point would be to stop all health tourists and make it a requirement to show ID before using the service . It should be a National Health Service , not a World Health Service . | |||
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"Why would anyone have any interest in what was said on the side of a bus .? Brexit was a once in a life time opportunity to vote on issues such as border control , unnecessary EU bureaucracy and no longer having to adhere to unnecessary EU regulations such as driver qualification cards , the requirement to have one can prevent people from working . Issues with the health service have to be addressed independently of Brexit . A good starting point would be to stop all health tourists and make it a requirement to show ID before using the service . It should be a National Health Service , not a World Health Service ." OK: Side of bus: someone clearly thought it'd make a difference as it was paid for and then vigorously defended during the campaign, strange actions if noone cared. What's the problem with driver qualification cards? In an earlier thread we looked at the problems with having to have ID to vote. It became apparent that the only worthwhile ID is photo ID. As there are loads of people in the country who don't have it, how do you get round that for NHS treatment? Does anyone know how big a problem health tourism is? Anyone got any figures (I know, it's me banging on about those pesky facts again, sorry! Not!)? | |||
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"What, with the fucking Tories in power? Ha ha. They fuck the NHS every time. And education and anything else that needs investing in, because they want to claim they know what to do with the economy, which consists basically of not spending any money. Anyone can look like a genius in the short term doing that. There is no long term thinking, while selling off assets to fund the already rich. Can you believe this, by the way? http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/commissioning/commissioning-topics/emergency-admissions/red-cross-deployed-to-cope-with-nhs-humanitarian-crisis/20033586.article#.WG_JRdATSrc.twitter The fucking Red Cross is having to step in! Well done, Cameron, May and Hunt, you've made us a third world country. " I think most countries envy our NHS . Jeremy Hunt has done an excellent job as Health Minster . It was Tony Blair who left the NHS with very expensive long term PFI contracts . The aim of the Conservative government is to create a stable and vibrant economy in which we can fund and improve the NHS. I can see nothing wrong with that policy . What NHS assets are very sold off ? | |||
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"If we throw away freedom of movement then the NHS will very quickly have a staffing crisis. The other side of the equation is that we should be training a sufficient number of UK citizens to match demand . Using imported labour can hardly be considered to be a long term solution. We should be making better use or training skilled nursing staff and become less dependent on GPs." Well obviously not enough UK citizens want to train up and work in the NHS otherwise we wouldn't be so dependant on foreign workers. | |||
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"Why would anyone have any interest in what was said on the side of a bus .? Brexit was a once in a life time opportunity to vote on issues such as border control , unnecessary EU bureaucracy and no longer having to adhere to unnecessary EU regulations such as driver qualification cards , the requirement to have one can prevent people from working . Issues with the health service have to be addressed independently of Brexit . A good starting point would be to stop all health tourists and make it a requirement to show ID before using the service . It should be a National Health Service , not a World Health Service . OK: Side of bus: someone clearly thought it'd make a difference as it was paid for and then vigorously defended during the campaign, strange actions if noone cared. What's the problem with driver qualification cards? In an earlier thread we looked at the problems with having to have ID to vote. It became apparent that the only worthwhile ID is photo ID. As there are loads of people in the country who don't have it, how do you get round that for NHS treatment? Does anyone know how big a problem health tourism is? Anyone got any figures (I know, it's me banging on about those pesky facts again, sorry! Not!)?" The problem with driver qualification cards is that you cannot legally driver for hire and reward unless you have one . This is in addition to your driving licence . To obtain your initial card you have to go on courses for 35 hours . You can go on the same course for five sessions and simply sit there in order to obtain your card . A completely pointless exercise . | |||
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"If we throw away freedom of movement then the NHS will very quickly have a staffing crisis. The other side of the equation is that we should be training a sufficient number of UK citizens to match demand . Using imported labour can hardly be considered to be a long term solution. We should be making better use or training skilled nursing staff and become less dependent on GPs. Well obviously not enough UK citizens want to train up and work in the NHS otherwise we wouldn't be so dependant on foreign workers." Or maybe out training schemes are not sufficiently organised . | |||
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"What, with the fucking Tories in power? Ha ha. They fuck the NHS every time. And education and anything else that needs investing in, because they want to claim they know what to do with the economy, which consists basically of not spending any money. Anyone can look like a genius in the short term doing that. There is no long term thinking, while selling off assets to fund the already rich. Can you believe this, by the way? http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/commissioning/commissioning-topics/emergency-admissions/red-cross-deployed-to-cope-with-nhs-humanitarian-crisis/20033586.article#.WG_JRdATSrc.twitter The fucking Red Cross is having to step in! Well done, Cameron, May and Hunt, you've made us a third world country. " If the NHS is now in a humanitarian crisis as the red Cross claim then how about we return some of the foreign aid budget to spend it on the NHS in this country. The foreign aid budget is meant to go on humanitarian crisis in other countries, if we have one of our own then surely the money should be spent here. I was just watching press pre_iew on sky news and there is a story in tomorrow's newspapers about our generous foreign aid budget being spent on daft things like an Ethiopian version of the Spice Girls, it is a disgrace! | |||
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"Why would anyone have any interest in what was said on the side of a bus .? Brexit was a once in a life time opportunity to vote on issues such as border control , unnecessary EU bureaucracy and no longer having to adhere to unnecessary EU regulations such as driver qualification cards , the requirement to have one can prevent people from working . Issues with the health service have to be addressed independently of Brexit . A good starting point would be to stop all health tourists and make it a requirement to show ID before using the service . It should be a National Health Service , not a World Health Service . OK: Side of bus: someone clearly thought it'd make a difference as it was paid for and then vigorously defended during the campaign, strange actions if noone cared. What's the problem with driver qualification cards? In an earlier thread we looked at the problems with having to have ID to vote. It became apparent that the only worthwhile ID is photo ID. As there are loads of people in the country who don't have it, how do you get round that for NHS treatment? Does anyone know how big a problem health tourism is? Anyone got any figures (I know, it's me banging on about those pesky facts again, sorry! Not!)?" One a simplistic basis if you cannot produce a card you are refused treatment . If I travel abroad I always ensure that I have both adequate insurance cover plus an EHIC card . Any UK citizen would be refused treatment abroad unless that can prove that they are entitled to it . | |||
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"The problem with driver qualification cards is that you cannot legally driver for hire and reward unless you have one . This is in addition to your driving licence . To obtain your initial card you have to go on courses for 35 hours . You can go on the same course for five sessions and simply sit there in order to obtain your card . A completely pointless exercise ." So, the problem with driver training cards is that you have to attend a specific number of hours of training so that you're a good, safe driver. I accept that if you're not dilligent then, yes, you can just turn up, fair point. Same as much of the training courses professionals have to do in fact. This simple fact doesn't make the training pointless, it assumes a reasonable amount of diligence and professionalism from the trainee. What's wrong with that? The simple answer, I suggest, if you can't agree that said professionals have this level of diligence, would be to add in a pass/fail test and make it so they have to be different courses. Easy. If the worst example of EU regulation you could come up with is this then why are we leaving? These are great things, for the vast majority of drivers, who will, of course, whinge about them, thet'll do the training properly and be better for it. | |||
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"One a simplistic basis if you cannot produce a card you are refused treatment . If I travel abroad I always ensure that I have both adequate insurance cover plus an EHIC card . Any UK citizen would be refused treatment abroad unless that can prove that they are entitled to it ." What card? We don't have ID cards. Remember, if it's not photo ID it's pointless. Many, many, of the people who need treatment won't have passport or drivers licence. | |||
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"One a simplistic basis if you cannot produce a card you are refused treatment . If I travel abroad I always ensure that I have both adequate insurance cover plus an EHIC card . Any UK citizen would be refused treatment abroad unless that can prove that they are entitled to it . What card? We don't have ID cards. Remember, if it's not photo ID it's pointless. Many, many, of the people who need treatment won't have passport or drivers licence."  | |||
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"I will. I'm sure the Tories said the NHS was safe in their hands and that there would be no cuts in funding. Yes, but what they did was tranfer a lot more healthcare responsibilities to local councils and then slashed their budgets. Gits. The Police are stretched to breaking, education is falling behind to the point our numeracy is behind Albania, the Red Cross is having to help our Health Service. Meanwhile not one firm named and shamed for paying below the minimum wage has been prosecuted, no workers on any boards, no bankers have gone to jail, the one rail service that was well run and making a profit (GNER) did so under state ownership after the private companies failed and so we sold it back to a private company to run on the cheap. What the hell have these people been doing for six years? Not working out a Brexit plan, that's for sure. Mostly spent having witty one liners ready for PMQ's to dazzle their dumb supporters into thinking they are people of any substance whatsoever, as far as I can tell. That and stabbing each other in the back as they put themselves before the country. But we we can't have Corbyn in because he might make a mess of things." You will be getting yourself a bad reputation in the forum saying things like that! | |||
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"If we throw away freedom of movement then the NHS will very quickly have a staffing crisis. The other side of the equation is that we should be training a sufficient number of UK citizens to match demand . Using imported labour can hardly be considered to be a long term solution. We should be making better use or training skilled nursing staff and become less dependent on GPs. Well obviously not enough UK citizens want to train up and work in the NHS otherwise we wouldn't be so dependant on foreign workers." The RCN says differently. Their figures are that there are consistently between 80,000 and 100,000 applications for 20,000 training places every year. With the removal of bursaries, they expect this figure to drop by about 6%, meaning that places will still be oversubscribed. A friend of mine's daughter was fortunate enough to get a training placement to become a midwife a couple of years ago...there were 40 places and over 1,000 applicants. | |||
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"One a simplistic basis if you cannot produce a card you are refused treatment . If I travel abroad I always ensure that I have both adequate insurance cover plus an EHIC card . Any UK citizen would be refused treatment abroad unless that can prove that they are entitled to it . What card? We don't have ID cards. Remember, if it's not photo ID it's pointless. Many, many, of the people who need treatment won't have passport or drivers licence." Don't worry, those health tourists will all have photo ID passports 
-Matt | |||
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"How will Brexit help improve the performance of the healthcare system: medical care, mental health, community support and elderly care? https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deficits-nhs-2016 http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2016/02/15/nhs-agrees-five-year-plan-address-unacceptable-mental-health-failings/ http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/publications/health-priorities-next-government-2015-2020 why? Is it improving at the moment?" Ha ha!!! Yes, the Red Cross have just given it a health warning!? Maybe we should donate a few more millions...to foreign girl bands...that'll fix it! | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse? Staffing......." When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse? Staffing....... When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis" Well said . All we need do is train the appropriate number of nurses . | |||
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" I think most countries envy our NHS . Jeremy Hunt has done an excellent job as Health Minster . " I disagree. I'm in a country without a national health service. We use health insurances. It's cheap, available to all, we get seen the same day, get a consultant within a week. And I get in and out of A&E or out of hours within 30 minutes. I've never experienced that with the NHS. Has it got better under Hunt? | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse? Staffing....... When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis Well said . All we need do is train the appropriate number of nurses ." Don't forget doctors, specialists etc. And instead of 15k tuition fees they are now 60k to get educated. Remember the fees went up. | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse? Staffing....... When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis Well said . All we need do is train the appropriate number of nurses ." Why haven't we then? If it was that simple or desirable to have UK national staff. Why don't we have it already? Why are there staff shortages in the NHS at the moment? -Matt | |||
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"When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis" And there was me thinking that nige and his kippers, the EDL and most outers were looking to take back border control to be able to kick out and keep out all those muslim immigrants that are flooding from africa and asia. Seems I got that wrong its to keep out those bloody EU whites and their tasty sausages!  | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse? Staffing....... When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis Well said . All we need do is train the appropriate number of nurses . Why haven't we then? If it was that simple or desirable to have UK national staff. Why don't we have it already? Why are there staff shortages in the NHS at the moment? -Matt" We can only assume that it is a lack of long term planning. Maybe scrap the foreign aid budget and use some of the savings to train additional staff . Or in the long term charge for the use of some NHS services | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse? Staffing....... When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis Well said . All we need do is train the appropriate number of nurses . Why haven't we then? If it was that simple or desirable to have UK national staff. Why don't we have it already? Why are there staff shortages in the NHS at the moment? -Matt We can only assume that it is a lack of long term planning. Maybe scrap the foreign aid budget and use some of the savings to train additional staff . Or in the long term charge for the use of some NHS services " Use the foreign aid budget for the NHS.. hrmm... interesting idea... maybe if there was some kind of international organisation that could be a conduit for that? Maybe we could create one... I'd give it a logo with a some kind of symbol on it... maybe some kind of cross of protection? The foreign aid budget is less than 10% of the NHS budget, so even if you took all of it for the NHS, it is still not a vast difference. So, yes, I'd agree that lack of long term planning is a pretty good catch all reason. But that pretty much sums up most of the Tory government doesn't it? -Matt | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse? Staffing....... When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis Well said . All we need do is train the appropriate number of nurses . Why haven't we then? If it was that simple or desirable to have UK national staff. Why don't we have it already? Why are there staff shortages in the NHS at the moment? -Matt" It's cheaper to let other, poorer, countries train nurses and doctors, and then for us to "import " them than it is for us to train our own. | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse? Staffing....... When eu nationals make up less than 5% of the workforce it would hardly be a crisis Well said . All we need do is train the appropriate number of nurses . Why haven't we then? If it was that simple or desirable to have UK national staff. Why don't we have it already? Why are there staff shortages in the NHS at the moment? -Matt We can only assume that it is a lack of long term planning. Maybe scrap the foreign aid budget and use some of the savings to train additional staff . Or in the long term charge for the use of some NHS services Use the foreign aid budget for the NHS.. hrmm... interesting idea... maybe if there was some kind of international organisation that could be a conduit for that? Maybe we could create one... I'd give it a logo with a some kind of symbol on it... maybe some kind of cross of protection? The foreign aid budget is less than 10% of the NHS budget, so even if you took all of it for the NHS, it is still not a vast difference. So, yes, I'd agree that lack of long term planning is a pretty good catch all reason. But that pretty much sums up most of the Tory government doesn't it? -Matt" The foreign aid budget is 12 Billion.... Which would train quite a lot of medical professionals. | |||
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" The foreign aid budget is 12 Billion.... Which would train quite a lot of medical professionals. " You see absolutely know benefit on foreign aid provision to the UK or inherently as an end in itself? Why do you think we do it, put of interest? | |||
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"The NHS crisis is now and needs to be addressed now and the government and the people are taking there eyes of the here and now as they are so busy with brexit. There is more to be concerned about that brexit the NHS being top of the list" So Brexit is actually going to worsen the situation? How would we solve it anyway? More money? From our EU contribution or greater tax receipts from the trade bonanza that is definitely and unambiguously coming? | |||
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" The foreign aid budget is 12 Billion.... Which would train quite a lot of medical professionals. You see absolutely know benefit on foreign aid provision to the UK or inherently as an end in itself? Why do you think we do it, put of interest?" There is, of course, a benefit in some foreign aid... But do you think we should give more, or less, foreign aid? Do you think 12 Billion is the right amount? Do you think it goes to the right places, for the right schemes? Do you think we should be giving aid to countries who are quite clearly corrupt, or who have nuclear weapons programmes, or who have space programmes? Do you think we should be giving 1.2 Billion of our foreign aid to the EU, for the EU to decide what to do with it? Do you think we should take nurses from other countries that are poorer than us? That have paid to train those nurses, only to see them come to the UK to work because we don't train enough here? | |||
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"There is, of course, a benefit in some foreign aid... But do you think we should give more, or less, foreign aid? Do you think 12 Billion is the right amount? Do you think it goes to the right places, for the right schemes? Do you think we should be giving aid to countries who are quite clearly corrupt, or who have nuclear weapons programmes, or who have space programmes? Do you think we should be giving 1.2 Billion of our foreign aid to the EU, for the EU to decide what to do with it? Do you think we should take nurses from other countries that are poorer than us? That have paid to train those nurses, only to see them come to the UK to work because we don't train enough here?" For my part I have a lot of problems with foreign aid. I believe it (in most cases) to be nothing more than thinly veiled government bribes to foreign countries to buy arms they really don't need and cant afford. Further I believe that is is an underhand way to restrict development in 3rd world countries and insure that they are carrying so much debt that they cannot improve their own situations and remain 'client states'. I further believe that where aid is used to feed and water populations it does more harm than good by propping up unsustainable populations and that for the most part many of the 'problems' we face today are of our own making. It cannot be shear coincidence that the world population explosion, climate change and the mass movement of people from tropical and sub-tropical parts of the world to more temperate climes has happened since 'the west' started its massive drive to eliminate tropical diseases, feed and water the world. I for one think we need to stop it all. That includes poaching those who do get educated in 3rd world countries. | |||
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"A lot of NHS trained staff have either moved abroad to work, or have moved into the more lucrative private practice. " I could be wrong, but I thought the NHS did not train staff any more. I believe that all the medical disciplines are now trained by universities with students being placed in teaching hospitals for the practical elements of their courses. Of course all teaching hospitals are part of the NHS but that does not mean the NHS train the students. | |||
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" There is, of course, a benefit in some foreign aid... But do you think we should give more, or less, foreign aid? Do you think 12 Billion is the right amount? Do you think it goes to the right places, for the right schemes? Do you think we should be giving aid to countries who are quite clearly corrupt, or who have nuclear weapons programmes, or who have space programmes? Do you think we should be giving 1.2 Billion of our foreign aid to the EU, for the EU to decide what to do with it? Do you think we should take nurses from other countries that are poorer than us? That have paid to train those nurses, only to see them come to the UK to work because we don't train enough here?" Do I think that the UK government and civil service and every organisation that we work with should make all of the right decisions and allocate resources perfectly all of the time? Yes. I'd like to think that I'd do,a much better job. I wouldn't though  | |||
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" For my part I have a lot of problems with foreign aid. I believe it (in most cases) to be nothing more than thinly veiled government bribes to foreign countries to buy arms they really don't need and cant afford. Further I believe that is is an underhand way to restrict development in 3rd world countries and insure that they are carrying so much debt that they cannot improve their own situations and remain 'client states'. I further believe that where aid is used to feed and water populations it does more harm than good by propping up unsustainable populations and that for the most part many of the 'problems' we face today are of our own making. It cannot be shear coincidence that the world population explosion, climate change and the mass movement of people from tropical and sub-tropical parts of the world to more temperate climes has happened since 'the west' started its massive drive to eliminate tropical diseases, feed and water the world. I for one think we need to stop it all. That includes poaching those who do get educated in 3rd world countries. " The foreign aid budget is a foreign policy instrument. I'm sure that is why some of it appears to be spent strangely to us. It's a little harsh to seek to control population growth by denying those less fortunate than ourselves access to the health, education and security that we take for granted. Hans Rosling has done some really interesting work on the lag following the improvement in life chances and population change http://bbc.in/1hqqKm2 | |||
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" There is, of course, a benefit in some foreign aid... But do you think we should give more, or less, foreign aid? Do you think 12 Billion is the right amount? Do you think it goes to the right places, for the right schemes? Do you think we should be giving aid to countries who are quite clearly corrupt, or who have nuclear weapons programmes, or who have space programmes? Do you think we should be giving 1.2 Billion of our foreign aid to the EU, for the EU to decide what to do with it? Do you think we should take nurses from other countries that are poorer than us? That have paid to train those nurses, only to see them come to the UK to work because we don't train enough here? Do I think that the UK government and civil service and every organisation that we work with should make all of the right decisions and allocate resources perfectly all of the time? Yes. I'd like to think that I'd do,a much better job. I wouldn't though "So basically, you have nothing to say, other than to ask a question which you answer yourself.... Wow.... | |||
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" Do I think that the UK government and civil service and every organisation that we work with should make all of the right decisions and allocate resources perfectly all of the time? Yes. I'd like to think that I'd do,a much better job. I wouldn't though
So basically, you have nothing to say, other than to ask a question which you answer yourself....
Wow...."That was a rhetorical question that I used to answer a long post about being able to solve practically every problem. It's a well used debating technique. Is that acceptable? Have you a contribution to make about Brexit helping the funding and performance of the NHS? | |||
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" Do I think that the UK government and civil service and every organisation that we work with should make all of the right decisions and allocate resources perfectly all of the time? Yes. I'd like to think that I'd do,a much better job. I wouldn't though
So basically, you have nothing to say, other than to ask a question which you answer yourself....
Wow....
That was a rhetorical question that I used to answer a long post about being able to solve practically every problem.
It's a well used debating technique.
Is that acceptable?
Have you a contribution to make about Brexit helping the funding and performance of the NHS?"Even Corbyn said the other day that they would use the money saved from our membership fees to fund the NHS. | |||
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"Even Corbyn said the other day that they would use the money saved from our membership fees to fund the NHS." But the government have already said that their first priority will be to protect land (as in the sold off set aside subsidies) and farming subsidies and that they will protect that money with legislation. So there will not be any money to go to the NHS until that legislation is repealed. | |||
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"Even Corbyn said the other day that they would use the money saved from our membership fees to fund the NHS. But the government have already said that their first priority will be to protect land (as in the sold off set aside subsidies) and farming subsidies and that they will protect that money with legislation. So there will not be any money to go to the NHS until that legislation is repealed. " From Nigel Ferndale, The Spectator, Feb 2016. The weird thing is, it would make financial sense. Just to continue paying farmers the same subsidy as they are getting now would cost the British taxpayer half as much, because, at present, we pay £6 billion a year into the CAP, but our farmers get only £3 billion back. British farmers are effectively subsidising their competitors: the French, by far the biggest beneficiary of the CAP, receive three times as much. We could also stop giving the EU 1.2 Billion of our Foreign Aid Budget. QED | |||
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" From Nigel Ferndale, The Spectator, Feb 2016. The weird thing is, it would make financial sense. Just to continue paying farmers the same subsidy as they are getting now would cost the British taxpayer half as much, because, at present, we pay £6 billion a year into the CAP, but our farmers get only £3 billion back. British farmers are effectively subsidising their competitors: the French, by far the biggest beneficiary of the CAP, receive three times as much. We could also stop giving the EU 1.2 Billion of our Foreign Aid Budget. QED" I'm glad that you have done some research rather than just being angry with me. The net contribution of the UK to the EU is approximately £8.5bn. This is just the net transfer of funds. It's difficult to explain this without rehashing the entire referendum, but at a very conservative assumption that 10% of our £220bn annual trade with the EU is of which we import slightly more than we export. So say £10bn from that alone means that we benefit by £1.2bn annually. Then we take into account the regulatory bodies at the EU level which we would have to replicate in the UK whilst continuing to have to accept EU regulations to trade with them. Bodies like the pharmaceutical regulator are currently based here and will leave. Large scale joint scientific projects like JET will have to stay but we will not get anything new. That's some of the on-going financial cost. Non financial benefits such as visa free holiday and business travel and security and policing andare exclusion from scientific collaborations are another matter. There is also a administrative cost to leaving the EU together with the diversion of resource within the stretched UK civil service away from everything else and the distraction of government. The government is already committed to farm subsidies until 2020 and if you're happy to devastate the rural economy then prioritise as you wish, but it sounds like the priorities of an urban elite to me. Please think beyond the first step of a balance sheet. This is a national economy. What has the foreign aid budget have to do with the EU? | |||
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" From Nigel Ferndale, The Spectator, Feb 2016. The weird thing is, it would make financial sense. Just to continue paying farmers the same subsidy as they are getting now would cost the British taxpayer half as much, because, at present, we pay £6 billion a year into the CAP, but our farmers get only £3 billion back. British farmers are effectively subsidising their competitors: the French, by far the biggest beneficiary of the CAP, receive three times as much. We could also stop giving the EU 1.2 Billion of our Foreign Aid Budget. QED I'm glad that you have done some research rather than just being angry with me. The net contribution of the UK to the EU is approximately £8.5bn. This is just the net transfer of funds. It's difficult to explain this without rehashing the entire referendum, but at a very conservative assumption that 10% of our £220bn annual trade with the EU is of which we import slightly more than we export. So say £10bn from that alone means that we benefit by £1.2bn annually. Then we take into account the regulatory bodies at the EU level which we would have to replicate in the UK whilst continuing to have to accept EU regulations to trade with them. Bodies like the pharmaceutical regulator are currently based here and will leave. Large scale joint scientific projects like JET will have to stay but we will not get anything new. That's some of the on-going financial cost. Non financial benefits such as visa free holiday and business travel and security and policing andare exclusion from scientific collaborations are another matter. There is also a administrative cost to leaving the EU together with the diversion of resource within the stretched UK civil service away from everything else and the distraction of government. The government is already committed to farm subsidies until 2020 and if you're happy to devastate the rural economy then prioritise as you wish, but it sounds like the priorities of an urban elite to me. Please think beyond the first step of a balance sheet. This is a national economy. What has the foreign aid budget have to do with the EU?" We give 1.2 Billion of our foreign aid budget to the EU for their foreign aid programmes. | |||
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" We give 1.2 Billion of our foreign aid budget to the EU for their foreign aid programmes. " I've never heard that. Possible. Have you got the source? Is this part of our overall foreign aid budget or additional to it? Either way it's already accounted for in either the net contribution I gave you or in a completely separate part of UK spending a proportion of which is administered by the EU. As an aside then as foreign aid spending (independent of the EU) seems to be something you dislike; We are one of only 5 countries that meet the UN target of sharing 0.7% of our wealth with the less fortunate. I am proud that the UK does this even if there is some inefficiency and corruption surrounding this. That's just my world _iew. Do you see any benefit in foreign aid both directly and indirectly to the UK or as a good in itself? | |||
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" Even Corbyn said the other day that they would use the money saved from our membership fees to fund the NHS." The elephant in the room is the fact that the much derided "unelected EU bureaucrats" (civil servants in the real world) conduct work for the UK as the UK is part of the EU. Once we leave the EU, that work will still need to be done and the UK will have to create civil service jobs. This is of course good in some respects in as much as UK jobs will be created but the cost will make a serious dent in the £350 million a week that was going to the NHS. Never mind the fact that the govt has also committed to pay EU regional subsidies, pay the education & scientific research funds currently made by the EU, pay UK farming subsidies and quite possibly offer sweetheart tax deals to keep multinationals in the country in the event of a car crash Brexit. I am struggling to see how any savings will be made if govt committments are honoured and conversely I anticipate huge losses to the Treasury (and the country) because of Brexit. | |||
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" why? Is it improving at the moment? Not the question asked. How will Brexit make it better? What's the process linking leaving the EU with better healthcare for UK citizens. How will it make it worse?" Harder to access trained staff, Greater costs in research, less pooling of knowledge. This was widely discussed before the referendum and ignored by the Quitters. | |||
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" We give 1.2 Billion of our foreign aid budget to the EU for their foreign aid programmes. I've never heard that. Possible. Have you got the source? Is this part of our overall foreign aid budget or additional to it? Either way it's already accounted for in either the net contribution I gave you or in a completely separate part of UK spending a proportion of which is administered by the EU. As an aside then as foreign aid spending (independent of the EU) seems to be something you dislike; We are one of only 5 countries that meet the UN target of sharing 0.7% of our wealth with the less fortunate. I am proud that the UK does this even if there is some inefficiency and corruption surrounding this. That's just my world _iew. Do you see any benefit in foreign aid both directly and indirectly to the UK or as a good in itself?" HM Govt Development Cooperation and Foreign Aid Report. | |||
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" HM Govt Development Cooperation and Foreign Aid Report." Fine. Is it additional to the EU budget or is it a part of the international development budget? Either way it's either already accounted for in my quick calculation or it's from a separate budget a portion of which is just currently administered by the EU so only available if you cut the overseas aid budget. | |||
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" HM Govt Development Cooperation and Foreign Aid Report. Fine. Is it additional to the EU budget or is it a part of the international development budget? Either way it's either already accounted for in my quick calculation or it's from a separate budget a portion of which is just currently administered by the EU so only available if you cut the overseas aid budget." Its part of our foreign aid budget.... | |||
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