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"I am tempted... lol... Okay... not going to smash it, but just putting this out there... What do you think Nigel farage made of trumps choice for us trade secretary Wilber Ross comments on brexit....." Go on 
What did he say ? | |||
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"I am tempted... lol... Okay... not going to smash it, but just putting this out there... What do you think Nigel farage made of trumps choice for us trade secretary Wilber Ross comments on brexit....." To be fair to him, he did say what he said before he was appointed to Team Trump and so it could be argued that he personal opinions will be different to what he will be expected to achieve as part of Tesm Trump. That said, he has only said what is obvious and what is true. The UK will be weaker outside of the EU and other countries would be quite right to selfishly hunt down corporate and trade opportunities at the expense of a more isolated UK. What is of course of most concern is that despite what his instructions might be, he has been appointed to conduct trade deals from an America First ideology and he will be the chief negotiator of any forthcoming US/UK trade deal. His comments ought to be a wake up call to everyone in the UK that no one owes us anything and that far from looking to help us in some way, all other countries will be quite rightly looking to capitalise on the weaknesses exposed in the UK because of Brexit, with the US being one of those countries. | |||
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"I don't think Nige gives a toss. I expect that most brexitors will either deny it was said or claim it has no significance. Personally I am finding the parallels between the rhetoric and actions of the 30's and now quite disturbing. After all the USA caused a global financial crisis in the late 20's that led to a world depression in the 30's which the US government of the day deepened by its isolationist policies and the use of protectionism to damage European industry to benefit the US economy. Seems some of the Trumpsters team have been reading their history and have a craving to repeat history and the profits that the USA made out of WW2. Guess those of us that are listening are getting a foretaste of how the Trumpster is going to make the USA great again. Not sure how 'wonderful' it is going to be for Europe and the Eastern European countries in particular. " World dynamics are not the same now though as the 20's and 30's. China's economy could soon surpass that of America. There are rumours in some circles that China and Russia and a few other countries could set up their own world reserve currency so everything won't be so dependent on the performance of the US dollar. | |||
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"I am tempted... lol... Okay... not going to smash it, but just putting this out there... What do you think Nigel farage made of trumps choice for us trade secretary Wilber Ross comments on brexit....." UK will get a trade deal with the USA, the EU won't get a trade deal with the USA. That's what I take from it. Seems much better than Obama's line of thinking that we'd be at the 'back of the queue'. Now it looks like we are jumping the queue, and it will be the EU at the back of the queue, funny how a few months can change things around. | |||
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"I am tempted... lol... Okay... not going to smash it, but just putting this out there... What do you think Nigel farage made of trumps choice for us trade secretary Wilber Ross comments on brexit....." He's probably organising anti Brexit demonstrations,and rallies,throughout Britain,as we speak. Demanding we hold a second EU referendum, based on this new unforseen Brexit possibility. The new slogan on the side of the bus will be, Better together Then It'll be easier to keep an eye on the sneaky,smelly,backstabbing, cheating,diving,horse eating, Sheep shagging, Foreign bastards. . Ps He's getting a bigger bus.  | |||
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"Centaur will you *ever* admit to being concerned about some of these developments? You strike me as someone who is intelligent and you often offer interesting counter-arguments to us Remainers but whenever anything potentially awkward about Brexit arises, the answer is always "its all good" !! (Yeah I know there are a couple of Remainers who also refuse to budge an inch but I'm not going for blue-on-blue fire LOL)" 
4 words
Don't....hold......your...... breath
I almost admire the rosiness in centaur world!
You'll not get one to admit it because they would have to say that an expert was right... and you know that ain't happening | |||
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"Centaur will you *ever* admit to being concerned about some of these developments? You strike me as someone who is intelligent and you often offer interesting counter-arguments to us Remainers but whenever anything potentially awkward about Brexit arises, the answer is always "its all good" !! (Yeah I know there are a couple of Remainers who also refuse to budge an inch but I'm not going for blue-on-blue fire LOL)
4 words
Don't....hold......your...... breath
I almost admire the rosiness in centaur world!
You'll not get one to admit it because they would have to say that an expert was right... and you know that ain't happening "I did listen to experts, I just think the experts who supported Brexit talked more sense. | |||
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"Lol. Switzerland alone get better deals around the world and with much larger countries than the 'mighty' EU does. Maybe remainers should read 'The myth and paradox of the single market' and then they might see things from a slightly different perspective and have cause to think for a while. and as for the opening post, of course the guy is going to say things like this, he wants what is best for America after all, no matter what, and wouldn't be doing his job properly if he didn't stir things up"  True Switzerland does have more trade deals than the EU.
It seems Remainers relish every opportunity to talk down Britain in the world. If trade deals are done on size of economy as suggested on this thread by some, as Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world then we should be able to bully every other county with a smaller economy than ours, and only 4 countries above us will be able to bully us.
However I don't think that will happen, some countries with smaller economies than ours will be able to get good trade deals with us, as we will be able to get good trade deals with economies bigger than ours. Prosperous neighbours make good neighbours, it's not in anyone's interest to make anyone else poorer. When countries who do business with each other prosper then trade increases and so the prosperity increases. | |||
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"Switzerland's free trade deals with 41 countries: https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/en/home/Aussenwirtschaftspolitik_Wirtschaftliche_Zusammenarbeit/Wirtschaftsbeziehungen/Freihandelsabkommen/Liste_der_Freihandelsabkommen_der_Schweiz.html Free trade with Macedonia is probably not as valuable as with Japan. Of course, the terms are more important than the list of countries. For instance; Switzerland accepts free movement of EU nationals if they can't fill the role internally. There is no agreement on services, only manufacturing. They accept EU legislation in these areas and a number of committees manage this arrangement http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/switzerland/index_en.htm The EU has agreements in place with 50 countries plus Canada and of course gives access to the EU itself. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/index_en.htm The deal with China excludes chemicals, pharmaceuticals and banking, Switzerland's biggest sectors. http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=13e2589a-64a7-4f68-a5b2-4a6d2c1e9a89 Switzerland also negotiated on its own because it had to. We don't, or didn't." So why does it want to? | |||
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"Incidentally, we "waste" money in investing in the infrastructure of poorer EU countries and in education and health in those further afield to make them more prosperous a more lucrative trading partner. This is also the definition of soft power". Positively influencing the disposition of a country's population towards us. This is infinitely more likely to reduce conflict and terrorism and improve trade than anything else. Certainly better than military spending." I will explain that to my Spanish friends the next time I'm in my Spanish home and the Italian side of my family, the ones here and the ones in Italy, who all think that voting to leave was the right thing to do and will do when they get the chance. I'm sure they will appreciate those pearls of wisdom | |||
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"Incidentally, we "waste" money in investing in the infrastructure of poorer EU countries and in education and health in those further afield to make them more prosperous a more lucrative trading partner. This is also the definition of soft power". Positively influencing the disposition of a country's population towards us. This is infinitely more likely to reduce conflict and terrorism and improve trade than anything else. Certainly better than military spending." Well the UK is number 1 in soft power in the world so if you are correct that will improve our global trade with countries all over the world won't it. | |||
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" I will explain that to my Spanish friends the next time I'm in my Spanish home and the Italian side of my family, the ones here and the ones in Italy, who all think that voting to leave was the right thing to do and will do when they get the chance. I'm sure they will appreciate those pearls of wisdom" Most countries in the south fell out of love with the EU after the new eastern European countries joined. They were poorer so they got the money. Then 2008. What are your thoughts? What are your Spanish and Italian family's thoughts? Did they always think it was horrible? What is it horrible now?  | |||
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" Well the UK is number 1 in soft power in the world so if you are correct that will improve our global trade with countries all over the world won't it. " You really just want to "win" the argument. OK. Well done. I'm convinced.  | |||
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" Well the UK is number 1 in soft power in the world so if you are correct that will improve our global trade with countries all over the world won't it. You really just want to "win" the argument. OK. Well done. I'm convinced. "Wasn't it your own argument as you were the one who brought up the idea of soft power into the thread. | |||
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" I will explain that to my Spanish friends the next time I'm in my Spanish home and the Italian side of my family, the ones here and the ones in Italy, who all think that voting to leave was the right thing to do and will do when they get the chance. I'm sure they will appreciate those pearls of wisdom Most countries in the south fell out of love with the EU after the new eastern European countries joined. They were poorer so they got the money. Then 2008. " Wait a minute! Just a few posts above this you said.... "We are already in a group of our peers. Countries with similar size and economic and political development. " So which is it? | |||
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" Wait a minute! Just a few posts above this you said.... "We are already in a group of our peers. Countries with similar size and economic and political development. " So which is it?" Similar in a global context. That still indicates a range. Is that reasonable? | |||
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" Wasn't it your own argument as you were the one who brought up the idea of soft power into the thread. "Well like any business or personal relationship, years of positive interactions can turn on one act. The UK has, of its own volition and overflowing with sovereignty, followed the U.S. in engaging in a range of poorly thought out international military engagements that have endeared us to no-one. Pre-Brexit we have blamed the EU for all manner of problems justified or not and since then we have been diplomatic and intemperate in our rhetoric. Perhaps they will still be nice to us. Regardless, there is not an inherent evil in helping others. I'm a soft liberal though. More fool me as I should know that kindness is weakness... | |||
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" I will explain that to my Spanish friends the next time I'm in my Spanish home and the Italian side of my family, the ones here and the ones in Italy, who all think that voting to leave was the right thing to do and will do when they get the chance. I'm sure they will appreciate those pearls of wisdom Most countries in the south fell out of love with the EU after the new eastern European countries joined. They were poorer so they got the money. Then 2008. What are your thoughts? What are your Spanish and Italian family's thoughts? Did they always think it was horrible? What is it horrible now? "nothing to do with 'getting the money', they don't want 'charity'. More to do with the fact they were sold a pup with the Euro and are unable to control their fiscal policies, are tied to a single market which while making internal trade easier, restricts outward trade and growth and the severe austerity measures insisted on by Germany | |||
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" Wasn't it your own argument as you were the one who brought up the idea of soft power into the thread.
Well like any business or personal relationship, years of positive interactions can turn on one act.
The UK has, of its own volition and overflowing with sovereignty, followed the U.S. in engaging in a range of poorly thought out international military engagements that have endeared us to no-one. Pre-Brexit we have blamed the EU for all manner of problems justified or not and since then we have been diplomatic and intemperate in our rhetoric.
Perhaps they will still be nice to us.
Regardless, there is not an inherent evil in helping others. I'm a soft liberal though. More fool me as I should know that kindness is weakness..."overflowing with sovereignty yet follows somebody?
And the only people I've heard being undiplomatic and intemperate are the people running the EU. Maybe we shouldn't be so nice to them | |||
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" Wait a minute! Just a few posts above this you said.... "We are already in a group of our peers. Countries with similar size and economic and political development. " So which is it? Similar in a global context. That still indicates a range. Is that reasonable?" No, not in the context of what you then went on to say. | |||
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" overflowing with sovereignty yet follows somebody?
And the only people I've heard being undiplomatic and intemperate are the people running the EU. Maybe we shouldn't be so nice to them"I was making exactly the point that independent of the EU, i.e. implementing our full sovereignty, we chose to follow the U.S. Somewhat a strange use of our independence. I have heard uncompromising rhetoric from both sides of late, but I'm afraid that the UK government has, on balance, been rather more juvenile and aggressive in its language. This is primarily for the hard Brexit voters and wing of its own party. Everyone hears though. Your perception of this is different to mine. Fine. | |||
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" nothing to do with 'getting the money', they don't want 'charity'. More to do with the fact they were sold a pup with the Euro and are unable to control their fiscal policies, are tied to a single market which while making internal trade easier, restricts outward trade and growth and the severe austerity measures insisted on by Germany" I don't believe that anyone sees an infrastructure project paid for by "their government" using EU money as charity. I'm sure that spending stopping is seen as a bit of a problem. This is the sort of analysis that is seen as "expert" and therefore a lie but it indicates that Italy has not actually done badly from the Euro, particularly with respect to inflation. The site clearly has a view but the methodology seems credible. http://voxeu.org/article/italy-and-euro-myths-and-realities Do I actually think the Euro is a good idea? Yes but it was extended over-optimistically to states that could not keep up with the main driver - Germany. Spain, Italy and Greece made hay whilst economies were booming and cheap money was flowing but did not invest in useful infrastructure and develop their industries. Then things went wrong. Everyone enjoyed the boom but doesn't like the payback now. That's not a surprise surely? 73% thought that the Euro was a great idea in 2010 but only 48% now: http://www.thelocal.it/20160520/are-italians-really-falling-out-of-love-with-the-eu The Italian people were free to remove Silvio Berlusconi who took them into the Euro, but they returned him to power on multiple occasions. Go figure. I'm afraid I know less about Spain because I never lived there and I'm not inclined to do the research to the level that I'm willing to express an opinion. You are based on talking to your family there. Fine by me. | |||
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" Wait a minute! Just a few posts above this you said.... "We are already in a group of our peers. Countries with similar size and economic and political development. " So which is it? Similar in a global context. That still indicates a range. Is that reasonable? No, not in the context of what you then went on to say." I really don't understand what you'd like me to explain or justify | |||
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" nothing to do with 'getting the money', they don't want 'charity'. More to do with the fact they were sold a pup with the Euro and are unable to control their fiscal policies, are tied to a single market which while making internal trade easier, restricts outward trade and growth and the severe austerity measures insisted on by Germany I don't believe that anyone sees an infrastructure project paid for by "their government" using EU money as charity. I'm sure that spending stopping is seen as a bit of a problem. This is the sort of analysis that is seen as "expert" and therefore a lie but it indicates that Italy has not actually done badly from the Euro, particularly with respect to inflation. The site clearly has a view but the methodology seems credible. http://voxeu.org/article/italy-and-euro-myths-and-realities Do I actually think the Euro is a good idea? Yes but it was extended over-optimistically to states that could not keep up with the main driver - Germany. Spain, Italy and Greece made hay whilst economies were booming and cheap money was flowing but did not invest in useful infrastructure and develop their industries. Then things went wrong. Everyone enjoyed the boom but doesn't like the payback now. That's not a surprise surely? 73% thought that the Euro was a great idea in 2010 but only 48% now: http://www.thelocal.it/20160520/are-italians-really-falling-out-of-love-with-the-eu The Italian people were free to remove Silvio Berlusconi who took them into the Euro, but they returned him to power on multiple occasions. Go figure. I'm afraid I know less about Spain because I never lived there and I'm not inclined to do the research to the level that I'm willing to express an opinion. You are based on talking to your family there. Fine by me." Burlusconi is history and now the Italian people have given another Europhile leader the boot called Matteo Renzi. The Italian people seem to be rejecting the idea of the Euro, I think if Italy had a vote tomorrow on it they would vote to leave the Euro. It's not looking good for the Euro or the EU in Italy. | |||
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" Wait a minute! Just a few posts above this you said.... "We are already in a group of our peers. Countries with similar size and economic and political development. " So which is it? Similar in a global context. That still indicates a range. Is that reasonable? No, not in the context of what you then went on to say. I really don't understand what you'd like me to explain or justify "You don't have to explain anything... you put up two contradictory posts... Firstly, justifying why the UK has fucked itself in voting leave... We are already in a group of our peers. Countries with similar size and economic and political development. And then in justifying why the likes of Spain and Italy are pissed off with the EU... Most countries in the south fell out of love with the EU after the new eastern European countries joined. They were poorer so they got the money. So either all the member states of the EU are of similar size and political and economic development, or they aren't. We personally would say that they are not. | |||
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"So either all the member states of the EU are of similar size and political and economic development, or they aren't. We personally would say that they are not." You are arguing over the word "similar". This is different to the phrase "the same". I'm going to stop responding  | |||
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" Burlusconi is history and now the Italian people have given another Europhile leader the boot called Matteo Renzi. The Italian people seem to be rejecting the idea of the Euro, I think if Italy had a vote tomorrow on it they would vote to leave the Euro. It's not looking good for the Euro or the EU in Italy. " The Italian people had a referendum on if they should reform their political system. They chose not to, so their prime minister (appointed rather than elected) resigned as he'd staked his reputation on this. The Italian people now have a non-reformed political process which would, incidentally have offered the eurosceptic parties the potential for more influence. Yes, there is huge scepticism about the EU and the Euro. If either or both collapse will that make their lives better? I can't see a mechanism for that, but if you do please lay it out step-by-step for me | |||
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" nothing to do with 'getting the money', they don't want 'charity'. More to do with the fact they were sold a pup with the Euro and are unable to control their fiscal policies, are tied to a single market which while making internal trade easier, restricts outward trade and growth and the severe austerity measures insisted on by Germany I don't believe that anyone sees an infrastructure project paid for by "their government" using EU money as charity. I'm sure that spending stopping is seen as a bit of a problem. This is the sort of analysis that is seen as "expert" and therefore a lie but it indicates that Italy has not actually done badly from the Euro, particularly with respect to inflation. The site clearly has a view but the methodology seems credible. http://voxeu.org/article/italy-and-euro-myths-and-realities Do I actually think the Euro is a good idea? Yes but it was extended over-optimistically to states that could not keep up with the main driver - Germany. Spain, Italy and Greece made hay whilst economies were booming and cheap money was flowing but did not invest in useful infrastructure and develop their industries. Then things went wrong. Everyone enjoyed the boom but doesn't like the payback now. That's not a surprise surely? 73% thought that the Euro was a great idea in 2010 but only 48% now: http://www.thelocal.it/20160520/are-italians-really-falling-out-of-love-with-the-eu The Italian people were free to remove Silvio Berlusconi who took them into the Euro, but they returned him to power on multiple occasions. Go figure. I'm afraid I know less about Spain because I never lived there and I'm not inclined to do the research to the level that I'm willing to express an opinion. You are based on talking to your family there. Fine by me." and from living there when the Euro was introduced and everyone became poorer overnight and apart from a few years of reckless spending which was an illusion and encouraged by the EU, things have got worse ever since | |||
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"Lol. Switzerland alone get better deals around the world and with much larger countries than the 'mighty' EU does. " Fuck me what a load of old shit, you've just reminded me while I stopped clicking on the politics forum, I mean for crying out fucking loud | |||
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"So either all the member states of the EU are of similar size and political and economic development, or they aren't. We personally would say that they are not. You are arguing over the word "similar". This is different to the phrase "the same". I'm going to stop responding "Similar - having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical. Very much alike. Well let's explore a couple of 'similarities' then... How similar are the minimum and average earnings of the Eastern European members of the EU to the UK? How similar is per capita GDP? If you put the average earnings of someone in the UK against, say, Romania, Poland or Bulgaria - How similar would they look? I'm not asking if they look the same.... just similar. Probably about as similar as a grapefruit to a banana. | |||
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"Lol. Switzerland alone get better deals around the world and with much larger countries than the 'mighty' EU does. Fuck me what a load of old shit, you've just reminded me while I stopped clicking on the politics forum, I mean for crying out fucking loud" Just because you can't get your head round something doesn't mean its shit. I wouldn't have said that if it wasn't true. Its easy enough to check out the facts for yourself though. I won't expect an apology, just hope that you lose your bias and learn something | |||
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"Lol. Switzerland alone get better deals around the world and with much larger countries than the 'mighty' EU does. Fuck me what a load of old shit, you've just reminded me while I stopped clicking on the politics forum, I mean for crying out fucking loud Just because you can't get your head round something doesn't mean its shit. I wouldn't have said that if it wasn't true. Its easy enough to check out the facts for yourself though. I won't expect an apology, just hope that you lose your bias and learn something" Check out the great Sino Swiss trade agreement, great for the Chinese anyway | |||
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"Just because you can't get your head round something doesn't mean its shit. I wouldn't have said that if it wasn't true. Its easy enough to check out the facts for yourself though. I won't expect an apology, just hope that you lose your bias and learn something" I posted the facts, with links 3 days ago. Did you read them? Enjoy | |||
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"Lord king you know the idiot that ran the bank of England for a while did mention the other day that trade deals are to be had outside the EU then again what would he know " We already trade with countries from all around the world...... | |||
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