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 ) by New Years day wins a £1,000,000 from me (don't forget, we are Post Truth now!  )
I would like to submit the following quote:
"its not a question of whether he's right..." | |||
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"I think we should have a thread collecting the best quotes that truely epitomise this new Post Truth world we live in. Whoever posts the best quote they have read (rather than written ) by New Years day wins a £1,000,000 from me (don't forget, we are Post Truth now! )
I would like to submit the following quote:
"its not a question of whether he's right...""the sky is blue. Am I right? How does that help an argument? | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.”" Predictions of an Immediate, and disastrous recession,if brexit won.    | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. " It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums." no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe | |||
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"I think we should have a thread collecting the best quotes that truely epitomise this new Post Truth world we live in. Whoever posts the best quote they have read (rather than written ) by New Years day wins a £1,000,000 from me (don't forget, we are Post Truth now! )
I would like to submit the following quote:
"its not a question of whether he's right..."
the sky is blue. Am I right? How does that help an argument?". No no no no no no... The sky isn't blue we just perceive it as blue due to the way white light is refracted. The less pollution in the air and higher the atmospheric pressure the deeper the blue will appear!. Everything is an illusion... Didn't you know  | |||
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"The Arctic will be ice free by 2016. ". I doubt it, the Greenland glacier is about a mile thick!. Arctic ocean ice will persist for awhile yet.... However summer Arctic ocean ice will be gone very soon, it's lost 75% by volume or 50% by area in 30 years | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe" All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies." The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. Yes, we do get a rebate, which makes our net contribution to the EU a lot less. Not telling the truth is not the same as lying. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. Yes, we do get a rebate, which makes our net contribution to the EU a lot less. Not telling the truth is not the same as lying. " So why not put the real figure on the bus.If it wasnt a ploy to lie to the public. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. Yes, we do get a rebate, which makes our net contribution to the EU a lot less. Not telling the truth is not the same as lying. So why not put the real figure on the bus.If it wasnt a ploy to lie to the public." Welcome to 21st century politics! | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. " And there was me thinking it was a 23 YO Pakistani who did the killings in Berlin... Obviously I was wrong... Who was it? An EU commissioner? An MEP? Or maybe it was one of those Brussels bureaucrats? | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. And there was me thinking it was a 23 YO Pakistani who did the killings in Berlin... Obviously I was wrong... Who was it? An EU commissioner? An MEP? Or maybe it was one of those Brussels bureaucrats?" German police now saying that the man arrested was not the driver | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies." Although agenda driven predictions, made with the intention to sway opinion,than predict a realistic outcome. I would call that post truth. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. "  | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. " No it's not. -Matt | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. No it's not. -Matt" Quite right. It's more like £370 million. | |||
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"Is this whole post an excuse to make negative comments about other forum users?" Ha yes it does seem that way,not just on this post but most of the politics forums have very negative posts about individuals. Very sad really | |||
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"Is this whole post an excuse to make negative comments about other forum users?" I thought that was the whole point of the politics section? | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. No it's not. -Matt Quite right. It's more like £370 million." No it's not. -Matt | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. No it's not. -Matt Quite right. It's more like £370 million. No it's not. -Matt" Behind you... | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.”" 100% true. | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.” 100% true." True that it was indeed written on the side of a bus! | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. "Can you name two EU (and predecessor organisations) members that have been to war with each other? No, didn't think you could. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this "Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks "Yawn. | |||
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"£350 £250 £150 what does it matter it's still a lot of money that wud b better spent here " Well it's like a membership fee, you might pay a membership for the gym, or for a golf club, or for the AA. So it's not a case of that money would be better spent here, but a case of is it worth it or not. I think the figure we pay to the EU is worth it, but others think it's not. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
Yawn."post truth yawn looks contagious | |||
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"£350 £250 £150 what does it matter it's still a lot of money that wud b better spent here Well it's like a membership fee, you might pay a membership for the gym, or for a golf club, or for the AA. So it's not a case of that money would be better spent here, but a case of is it worth it or not. I think the figure we pay to the EU is worth it, but others think it's not. " We pay a fee to subsidise failing economies. It really is not like paying a fee to join a golf club. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks "So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well. As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well. Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK Very expensive club we are in there !!!! | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come.
Can you name two EU (and predecessor organisations) members that have been to war with each other? No, didn't think you ould. "the e.u hasnt brought peace to europe. Nato has. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!"Do I get a tie and a parking space? | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come.
Can you name two EU (and predecessor organisations) members that have been to war with each other? No, didn't think you ould.
the e.u hasnt brought peace to europe. Nato has. " And will continue to do so. | |||
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"U wudnt pay a membership to a golf club if it looked like it was about to fold it cud all b history in a few yrs see what happens in 2017 " | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!"No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn. Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn. So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year? Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument."Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument.
Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with."No doubt we will be better off even if we pay more in than before.Post truth economy. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument.
Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with."CLCC likes figures from the experts at the IMF who have made false predictions on a number of issues in the past and now head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been found guilty by a french court of law of negligence in her job, but appears she has got away with it Scott free, won't be serving any time behind bars and still gets to keep her job. The credibility of the IMF is shot with her now still in the job at the top of the IMF. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. Yes, we do get a rebate, which makes our net contribution to the EU a lot less. Not telling the truth is not the same as lying. So why not put the real figure on the bus.If it wasnt a ploy to lie to the public." Why when companies advertise vacancies for staff do they put the overall salary figure on the advertisement? Why don't they put the take home pay after deductions such as income tax and national insurance? Are they misleading the public by not stating the take home pay amount after deductions? The same principle applies to the £350 million figure on the side of the vote Leave bus, everyone knew that deductions were made from that amount for the rebate, etc. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument.
Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with.
CLCC likes figures from the experts at the IMF who have made false predictions on a number of issues in the past and now head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been found guilty by a french court of law of negligence in her job, but appears she has got away with it Scott free, won't be serving any time behind bars and still gets to keep her job. The credibility of the IMF is shot with her now still in the job at the top of the IMF. "None of those figures are from the IMF. | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument.
Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with.
CLCC likes figures from the experts at the IMF who have made false predictions on a number of issues in the past and now head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been found guilty by a french court of law of negligence in her job, but appears she has got away with it Scott free, won't be serving any time behind bars and still gets to keep her job. The credibility of the IMF is shot with her now still in the job at the top of the IMF.
None of those figures are from the IMF. "But they are from the authorities that you half-trust. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. Yes, we do get a rebate, which makes our net contribution to the EU a lot less. Not telling the truth is not the same as lying. So why not put the real figure on the bus.If it wasnt a ploy to lie to the public. Why when companies advertise vacancies for staff do they put the overall salary figure on the advertisement? Why don't they put the take home pay after deductions such as income tax and national insurance? Are they misleading the public by not stating the take home pay amount after deductions? The same principle applies to the £350 million figure on the side of the vote Leave bus, everyone knew that deductions were made from that amount for the rebate, etc. " Because they don't know how much you are going to take home. They don't know how much you are going to put in your pension. They don't know how much student loans you have to pay. They dont know if you will have an attachment to earnings from a court fine or CSA. Imagine you buy something in a shop that says £20 on the price tag and also says 50% off. When you take it to the till, do you give them £10 or £20? | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument.
Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with.
CLCC likes figures from the experts at the IMF who have made false predictions on a number of issues in the past and now head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been found guilty by a french court of law of negligence in her job, but appears she has got away with it Scott free, won't be serving any time behind bars and still gets to keep her job. The credibility of the IMF is shot with her now still in the job at the top of the IMF.
None of those figures are from the IMF.
But they are from the authorities that you half-trust."Like the Department for Exiting the EU? | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument.
Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with.
CLCC likes figures from the experts at the IMF who have made false predictions on a number of issues in the past and now head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been found guilty by a french court of law of negligence in her job, but appears she has got away with it Scott free, won't be serving any time behind bars and still gets to keep her job. The credibility of the IMF is shot with her now still in the job at the top of the IMF.
None of those figures are from the IMF.
But they are from the authorities that you half-trust.
Like the Department for Exiting the EU? "Whatever department you wish to rely on as proof. It seems to depend on what colour you like today. | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.”" ...which we're now gonna spend on some new curtains for the Queen! (couldn't make it up) | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument.
Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with.
CLCC likes figures from the experts at the IMF who have made false predictions on a number of issues in the past and now head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been found guilty by a french court of law of negligence in her job, but appears she has got away with it Scott free, won't be serving any time behind bars and still gets to keep her job. The credibility of the IMF is shot with her now still in the job at the top of the IMF.
None of those figures are from the IMF. "No but you regularly tell everyone to listen to experts on here and you've quoted the IMF many times in the past on here. | |||
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"I think they should just dig a big hole and fill it full of money somewhere in the Midlands..." ...oh, wait a mo', that's HS2 | |||
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"here's a link for ya https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ make what you will of this
Its a good link, that makes it very clear that the £350m figure is bollocks
So what about the rest of it, is that all bollocks in your world as well.
As we all know the gross figure is 350 million but with the rebate its closer to 250 million or is that lies in your world as well.
Still works out to between 9 and 13 billion contribution to the EU with aaccording to the link 4.5 billion contribution from the UE into the UK
Very expensive club we are in there !!!!
No, they say that the figure is £8bn a year, and if you also include the money that they give to private organisations in the UK (£1.4bn a year), like universities to conduct research, that means the figure is £6.6bn.
Don't get me wrong, £6.6bn is a lot of money, its more than I've got in my savings account, but its not as simple as we leave and stop paying. It's actually going to cost us more to leave, than it would cost us to stay. It's already cost £92bn, and the Department for Exiting the EU believes that leaving the customs union will cost us £22bn each year. Plus there is additional costs for our outstanding contribution, which has been rumoured at £50bn.
So the real question is which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year, or £142bn upfront and £22bn a year?
Of course there are non-financial arguments for and against, but that is the financial argument.
Your figures, of course, come from the financial experts that you are (partly) enamoured with.
CLCC likes figures from the experts at the IMF who have made false predictions on a number of issues in the past and now head of the IMF Christine Lagarde has been found guilty by a french court of law of negligence in her job, but appears she has got away with it Scott free, won't be serving any time behind bars and still gets to keep her job. The credibility of the IMF is shot with her now still in the job at the top of the IMF.
None of those figures are from the IMF.
No but you regularly tell everyone to listen to experts on here and you've quoted the IMF many times in the past on here. "Pfft. Whatever it is just 'pfft' | |||
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"Ministry for Brexit = £350m per week well spent "Ministry for Brexit won't be needed after we've fully left the EU, so maybe the money can then be transferred to the NHS. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. Yes, we do get a rebate, which makes our net contribution to the EU a lot less. Not telling the truth is not the same as lying. So why not put the real figure on the bus.If it wasnt a ploy to lie to the public. Why when companies advertise vacancies for staff do they put the overall salary figure on the advertisement? Why don't they put the take home pay after deductions such as income tax and national insurance? Are they misleading the public by not stating the take home pay amount after deductions? The same principle applies to the £350 million figure on the side of the vote Leave bus, everyone knew that deductions were made from that amount for the rebate, etc. Because they don't know how much you are going to take home. They don't know how much you are going to put in your pension. They don't know how much student loans you have to pay. They dont know if you will have an attachment to earnings from a court fine or CSA. Imagine you buy something in a shop that says £20 on the price tag and also says 50% off. When you take it to the till, do you give them £10 or £20? " The company who pays your wages does know how much your take home pay is after deductions such as income tax and national insurance. That is how they pay your salary. What you then spend your take home pay on is your business, be it into a pension, a student loan or a court fine or CSA or a pair of earrings from the high street shops. | |||
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"Ministry for Brexit = £350m per week well spent
Ministry for Brexit won't be needed after we've fully left the EU, so maybe the money can then be transferred to the NHS. "There is no 'Ministry for Brexit' there is the Department for Exiting the EU (DExEU) and that department, run by Brexiter in-chief David Davis is telling you that there wont be any money for the NHS. They are telling you it will cost us £22bn each year to leave. | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come. It would indeed be a Post Truth statement to blame a terrorist attack on the EU. But I haven’t seen that said in the forums. no but you've said often enough that the EU has brought peace to Europe All predictions can be wrong but they arent out right lies like the brexit bus. So therfore not post truth.Also the notion of peace is a subjective one and therefore not an out right lie.So maybe half truths or subjective truths.Some statements are lies. The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth. Yes, we do get a rebate, which makes our net contribution to the EU a lot less. Not telling the truth is not the same as lying. So why not put the real figure on the bus.If it wasnt a ploy to lie to the public. Why when companies advertise vacancies for staff do they put the overall salary figure on the advertisement? Why don't they put the take home pay after deductions such as income tax and national insurance? Are they misleading the public by not stating the take home pay amount after deductions? The same principle applies to the £350 million figure on the side of the vote Leave bus, everyone knew that deductions were made from that amount for the rebate, etc. Because they don't know how much you are going to take home. They don't know how much you are going to put in your pension. They don't know how much student loans you have to pay. They dont know if you will have an attachment to earnings from a court fine or CSA. Imagine you buy something in a shop that says £20 on the price tag and also says 50% off. When you take it to the till, do you give them £10 or £20? The company who pays your wages does know how much your take home pay is after deductions such as income tax and national insurance. That is how they pay your salary. What you then spend your take home pay on is your business, be it into a pension, a student loan or a court fine or CSA or a pair of earrings from the high street shops. " Yes the company that pays you knows all that, but you said when the ADVERTISE the job. How do they know that when they advertise it? | |||
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"Ministry for Brexit = £350m per week well spent
Ministry for Brexit won't be needed after we've fully left the EU, so maybe the money can then be transferred to the NHS.
There is no 'Ministry for Brexit' there is the Department for Exiting the EU (DExEU) and that department, run by Brexiter in-chief David Davis is telling you that there wont be any money for the NHS. They are telling you it will cost us £22bn each year to leave."Of course they are. You love your authorities don't you. Until they say something you don't like. | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.”" Er hate to tell you but technically that part was right | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.” Er hate to tell you but technically that part was right" No it's not. -Matt | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.” Er hate to tell you but technically that part was right No it's not. -Matt" So we've just had several people on this thread argue point blank that we send the EU £350 million a week. And yet, brexiteers keep saying that the public were not mis-informed about anything and that anyway, no-one actually believed what they said, so it doesn't matter. Q.E.D. -Matt | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.” Er hate to tell you but technically that part was right No it's not. Please do tell us Matt what the real amount is ? -Matt" | |||
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"Is this whole post an excuse to make negative comments about other forum users? Ha yes it does seem that way,not just on this post but most of the politics forums have very negative posts about individuals. Very sad really" Well I definitely won't be making any negative comments about you having just had the great pleasure of looking at your lovely and very sexy profile pics. | |||
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"The brexit bus. Emblazoned on the side was the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week.” Er hate to tell you but technically that part was right No it's not. Please do tell us Matt what the real amount is ? -Matt" £248 million a week for 2015. -Matt | |||
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"£350 £250 £150 what does it matter it's still a lot of money that wud b better spent here " If it doesn't matter then why not just tell the truth rather than lie about it. | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus " Yes they did. See above. Mercury stated: "The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth." It is not the truth. We do not send the EU £350 million a week. We sent them £248 million a week last year. -Matt | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus " Micheal Gove and Boris Johnson have said since the referendum the real figure is higher than £350 million per week, more like £370 million per week that we send to the EU (which we get a rebate from) so if anything vote Leave actually understated the figure. | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus " A bit of a boring debate. We all knew that figure was skewed. We all knew that the opposite figures were skewed. We all made a decision based on what we perceived to be our version of commonsense. Not what was painted on a bus. | |||
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If not oooops lol | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus A bit of a boring debate. We all knew that figure was skewed. We all knew that the opposite figures were skewed. We all made a decision based on what we perceived to be our version of commonsense. Not what was painted on a bus." You are missing the point of this thread. It is about post-truth. It is about how people are claiming blatant lies are truth. I don't care what you made your decision on, or what you perceive. This thread is about quotes that are claimed to be true. Above are examples of people very un-ambiguously making claims of amounts of money sent to brussels as true when they are not. Your response is a perfect example of the post-truth problem. Basically saying "I don't care what the real truth is, I have a perception of something, and so I claim that is the truth". -Matt | |||
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"The eu union has brought peace to Europe........Berlin and more to come.
Can you name two EU (and predecessor organisations) members that have been to war with each other? No, didn't think you ould.
the e.u hasnt brought peace to europe. Nato has. "NATO was designed to protect Europa from external threats, not internal. The EU/EC/EEC was set up with the main aim of preventing war within Europa. It's simply not true to say otherwise. In this regard, however much it sticks in the throat of BREXITers, it has been 100% successful. | |||
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"Kraken if that was about our profile thank you very much
If not oooops lol "It sure is a very nice profile,pity you don,t accept single men,Ian | |||
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"Kraken if that was about our profile thank you very much
If not oooops lol "It was about your profile and you're very welcome. Just hope I get the chance to tell you in person sometime, maybe at a social or something. Have you tried the Townhouse ever? | |||
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"Is this whole post an excuse to make negative comments about other forum users? Ha yes it does seem that way,not just on this post but most of the politics forums have very negative posts about individuals. Very sad really Well I definitely won't be making any negative comments about you having just had the great pleasure of looking at your lovely and very sexy profile pics. "Perhaps you should look at the figures on your calculator rather than ladies figures, your post about us exporting to the EU should be £200 per person not 200 million,unless of course you are using the old way of counting "0" per billion
102 billion is 102,000,000,000.
510 million is 510,000,000 which gives 10,200 divided by 51 = 200  | |||
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"Is this whole post an excuse to make negative comments about other forum users? Ha yes it does seem that way,not just on this post but most of the politics forums have very negative posts about individuals. Very sad really Well I definitely won't be making any negative comments about you having just had the great pleasure of looking at your lovely and very sexy profile pics.
Perhaps you should look at the figures on your calculator rather than ladies figures, your post about us exporting to the EU should be £200 per person not 200 million,unless of course you are using the old way of counting "0" per billion
102 billion is 102,000,000,000.
510 million is 510,000,000 which gives 10,200 divided by 51 = 200 "Thank you. You are indeed correct. But I think my basic point still stands. | |||
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"Is this whole post an excuse to make negative comments about other forum users? Ha yes it does seem that way,not just on this post but most of the politics forums have very negative posts about individuals. Very sad really Well I definitely won't be making any negative comments about you having just had the great pleasure of looking at your lovely and very sexy profile pics.
Perhaps you should look at the figures on your calculator rather than ladies figures, your post about us exporting to the EU should be £200 per person not 200 million,unless of course you are using the old way of counting "0" per billion
102 billion is 102,000,000,000.
510 million is 510,000,000 which gives 10,200 divided by 51 = 200 "And, despite the fact that we don't agree on much, your pics look pretty hot to. | |||
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"Is this whole post an excuse to make negative comments about other forum users? Ha yes it does seem that way,not just on this post but most of the politics forums have very negative posts about individuals. Very sad really Well I definitely won't be making any negative comments about you having just had the great pleasure of looking at your lovely and very sexy profile pics.
Perhaps you should look at the figures on your calculator rather than ladies figures, your post about us exporting to the EU should be £200 per person not 200 million,unless of course you are using the old way of counting "0" per billion
102 billion is 102,000,000,000.
510 million is 510,000,000 which gives 10,200 divided by 51 = 200
Thank you. You are indeed correct. But I think my basic point still stands."Yes it does no arguement with that bit, mind if we did export 200 million each it would be rather good | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus A bit of a boring debate. We all knew that figure was skewed. We all knew that the opposite figures were skewed. We all made a decision based on what we perceived to be our version of commonsense. Not what was painted on a bus. You are missing the point of this thread. It is about post-truth. It is about how people are claiming blatant lies are truth. I don't care what you made your decision on, or what you perceive. This thread is about quotes that are claimed to be true. Above are examples of people very un-ambiguously making claims of amounts of money sent to brussels as true when they are not. Your response is a perfect example of the post-truth problem. Basically saying "I don't care what the real truth is, I have a perception of something, and so I claim that is the truth". -Matt" Exactly right Matt, and others where you have a very clear fact, like the Governor of the BoE saying in a public letter to the Chancellor, we did the QE because of the Brexit vote, and then you still have people saying, ‘no, the QE happened just 6 weeks after the referendum, but actually the QE was due to the banking crisis 8 years ago, nothing to do with the referendum’. Pure, unadulterated Post-Truth. | |||
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"Is this whole post an excuse to make negative comments about other forum users? Ha yes it does seem that way,not just on this post but most of the politics forums have very negative posts about individuals. Very sad really Well I definitely won't be making any negative comments about you having just had the great pleasure of looking at your lovely and very sexy profile pics.
Perhaps you should look at the figures on your calculator rather than ladies figures, your post about us exporting to the EU should be £200 per person not 200 million,unless of course you are using the old way of counting "0" per billion
102 billion is 102,000,000,000.
510 million is 510,000,000 which gives 10,200 divided by 51 = 200
And, despite the fact that we don't agree on much, your pics look pretty hot to. "Thanks I assume you are talking about K | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus Yes they did. See above. Mercury stated: "The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth." It is not the truth. We do not send the EU £350 million a week. We sent them £248 million a week last year. -Matt" Regardless of which figure is true , it is still money just thrown away. The two figures seem close to me , not withstanding the fact that NHS spending was of no interest to anyone during the referendum. Voters get the choice to make decisions about the NHS at general elections . People made their decisions on the referendum based on border control , removal of EU leglisation , and to save money on our wasted EU contribution. | |||
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"U wudnt pay a membership to a golf club if it looked like it was about to fold it cud all b history in a few yrs see what happens in 2017 " An excellent analogy . I wish I had thought of that | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus Yes they did. See above. Mercury stated: "The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth." It is not the truth. We do not send the EU £350 million a week. We sent them £248 million a week last year. -Matt Regardless of which figure is true , it is still money just thrown away. The two figures seem close to me , not withstanding the fact that NHS spending was of no interest to anyone during the referendum. Voters get the choice to make decisions about the NHS at general elections . People made their decisions on the referendum based on border control , removal of EU leglisation , and to save money on our wasted EU contribution. " Oh, ffs pat. Just read what I put above. Read it. It is not even in a link or a quote so even you should see it. I don't care what you think of that sum of money. This is not about your or my or anyone else's opinion. It is about the facts. The point is that the £350M figure was a lie and that some people believed it. And still believe it, as shown above. I don't care whether you think that £350M and £250M are 'close'. All I know is that if I saw a car with £2,500 written on the windscreen and I went to buy it and when I went to hand over the cash you said 'actually it is £3,500, but don't worry, that is close' I'd think you were trying to take me for a fucking idiot. But if a 40% difference is 'close' in your mind, then clearly I don't understand car sales. -Matt | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus Yes they did. See above. Mercury stated: "The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth." It is not the truth. We do not send the EU £350 million a week. We sent them £248 million a week last year. -Matt Regardless of which figure is true , it is still money just thrown away. The two figures seem close to me , not withstanding the fact that NHS spending was of no interest to anyone during the referendum. Voters get the choice to make decisions about the NHS at general elections . People made their decisions on the referendum based on border control , removal of EU leglisation , and to save money on our wasted EU contribution. " But Pat your post gets to the very heart of post-truth. You don't even care which figure is true. If you don't care about the truth, all you'll get is lies | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973" But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? " it has brought more trade? That is an assumption not the truth | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? " If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! | |||
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Its a collection of post truthers not a collection of comments. Hugely entertaining though.
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell.
He would have seen this age for what it is.I think you should tell the truth otherwise someone else will say it for you. | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? " So the eu only trades with other countries in the eu ? According to the EU's own figures trade between member states in 2015 was 3,517,738 million euros,the imports from the top 28 countries outside the eu was 2,993,000, how on earth do these non eu countries ever manage to do it ??? | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973" No I'm not missing the point. The statement was "We send £350 million to the EU" And it is false. No opinion, no spin. No gross vs net. It is false. -Matt | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? So the eu only trades with other countries in the eu ? According to the EU's own figures trade between member states in 2015 was 3,517,738 million euros,the imports from the top 28 countries outside the eu was 2,993,000, how on earth do these non eu countries ever manage to do it ??? "Where do I say that? | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus Yes they did. See above. Mercury stated: "The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth." It is not the truth. We do not send the EU £350 million a week. We sent them £248 million a week last year. -Matt Regardless of which figure is true , it is still money just thrown away. The two figures seem close to me , not withstanding the fact that NHS spending was of no interest to anyone during the referendum. Voters get the choice to make decisions about the NHS at general elections . People made their decisions on the referendum based on border control , removal of EU leglisation , and to save money on our wasted EU contribution. Oh, ffs pat. Just read what I put above. Read it. It is not even in a link or a quote so even you should see it. I don't care what you think of that sum of money. This is not about your or my or anyone else's opinion. It is about the facts. The point is that the £350M figure was a lie and that some people believed it. And still believe it, as shown above. I don't care whether you think that £350M and £250M are 'close'. All I know is that if I saw a car with £2,500 written on the windscreen and I went to buy it and when I went to hand over the cash you said 'actually it is £3,500, but don't worry, that is close' I'd think you were trying to take me for a fucking idiot. But if a 40% difference is 'close' in your mind, then clearly I don't understand car sales. -Matt" Well this goes back to the job advertisement analogy again doesn't it. If a job puts an advert in the newspaper and they say it pays a salary of £30,000 per year, then you take the job based on that and from that £30,000 figure they deduct your income tax and national insurance for you so you end up taking home around £24,000 per year instead of the £30,000 as advertised. This is common practice in how jobs are advertised so are all these companies out to deceive people? Answer is an emphatic No, people know how it works when they see the figure advertised in the paper, same as everyone in the country knew from the £350 Million figure on the side of the bus that we get a percentage rebate from it. No lies and no deception it is very straight forward. | |||
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"No one has said we send 350 million gross We all knew about the rebate before the money was sent and that was stated during the campaign with the big red bus Yes they did. See above. Mercury stated: "The be exit bus was not a lie. We do send £350 million.to the EU per week. That is a truth." It is not the truth. We do not send the EU £350 million a week. We sent them £248 million a week last year. -Matt Regardless of which figure is true , it is still money just thrown away. The two figures seem close to me , not withstanding the fact that NHS spending was of no interest to anyone during the referendum. Voters get the choice to make decisions about the NHS at general elections . People made their decisions on the referendum based on border control , removal of EU leglisation , and to save money on our wasted EU contribution. Oh, ffs pat. Just read what I put above. Read it. It is not even in a link or a quote so even you should see it. I don't care what you think of that sum of money. This is not about your or my or anyone else's opinion. It is about the facts. The point is that the £350M figure was a lie and that some people believed it. And still believe it, as shown above. I don't care whether you think that £350M and £250M are 'close'. All I know is that if I saw a car with £2,500 written on the windscreen and I went to buy it and when I went to hand over the cash you said 'actually it is £3,500, but don't worry, that is close' I'd think you were trying to take me for a fucking idiot. But if a 40% difference is 'close' in your mind, then clearly I don't understand car sales. -Matt Well this goes back to the job advertisement analogy again doesn't it. If a job puts an advert in the newspaper and they say it pays a salary of £30,000 per year, then you take the job based on that and from that £30,000 figure they deduct your income tax and national insurance for you so you end up taking home around £24,000 per year instead of the £30,000 as advertised. This is common practice in how jobs are advertised so are all these companies out to deceive people? Answer is an emphatic No, people know how it works when they see the figure advertised in the paper, same as everyone in the country knew from the £350 Million figure on the side of the bus that we get a percentage rebate from it. No lies and no deception it is very straight forward. " No, they didn't understand it. Look above. At least two people in the thread above believe that the line "We send £350M per week to the EU" is true. It is not true. So people clearly don't realise that. The quote was not "Our membership fee of the EU is £350M a week". The quote was very specific. It stated the amount of money we send to the EU. With your job analogy it would be like the job advert saying "You will take home £30,000 a year". You won't. I'm sorry I can't explain this any simpler. -Matt | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?"" But that's in 2030. | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030. "Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you? | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you? "is that gross or nett? | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
is that gross or nett?"Hopefully gross then we might get a tax rebate. | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? So the eu only trades with other countries in the eu ? According to the EU's own figures trade between member states in 2015 was 3,517,738 million euros,the imports from the top 28 countries outside the eu was 2,993,000, how on earth do these non eu countries ever manage to do it ???
Where do I say that? "I didnt say you did, but you keep saying we aregoing to lose trade because we might not be in the single market anymore and that being in it has bought more trade, many posts from remainers seem to imply that either no trade will happen or that trade will be seriously reduced,both senarios are pure conjecture and my post was pointing out that the eu has as much trade with non eu countries as it does with other eu members and we can and will trade happily with the eu as we do now | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you? "I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030. | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? So the eu only trades with other countries in the eu ? According to the EU's own figures trade between member states in 2015 was 3,517,738 million euros,the imports from the top 28 countries outside the eu was 2,993,000, how on earth do these non eu countries ever manage to do it ???
Where do I say that?
I didnt say you did, but you keep saying we aregoing to lose trade because we might not be in the single market anymore and that being in it has bought more trade, many posts from remainers seem to imply that either no trade will happen or that trade will be seriously reduced,both senarios are pure conjecture and my post was pointing out that the eu has as much trade with non eu countries as it does with other eu members and we can and will trade happily with the eu as we do now "There are tariff barriers and non tariff barriers to trade. At the moment we don't have those with the EU. Once we leave we will have both. That will negatively impact on the amount of trade. Very simple. However, if you don't agree with the above, please can you explain why so many Brexiters are keen on new Free trade deals? It doesn't make sense to try and create a free trade deal if that doesn't boost trade does it? | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030."Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork. | |||
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" There are tariff barriers and non tariff barriers to trade. At the moment we don't have those with the EU. Once we leave we will have both. That will negatively impact on the amount of trade. Very simple. However, if you don't agree with the above, please can you explain why so many Brexiters are keen on new Free trade deals? It doesn't make sense to try and create a free trade deal if that doesn't boost trade does it? " You have no more knowledge than my pet cat if we will or wont have tariffs. But lets assume that the EU play silly buggers and wont do a deal and so some tariffs apply, with the pound around 8/10% down then if tariffs are set at wto levels of around 10% depending on sector the difference is nothing to the buyers in the eu but of course the eu sellers into our market will suffer a double hit, the figures of trade with non eu countries show that its perfectly possible to gain access, There may be some problems to solve but thats what any business is meant to be good at, you look at the down side of everything, well if UK plc does that then we are fudged regardless of what happens, thankfully we have millions of optomists that will seize the new opportunities that will open up as they always have done and always will do in the future | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? So the eu only trades with other countries in the eu ? According to the EU's own figures trade between member states in 2015 was 3,517,738 million euros,the imports from the top 28 countries outside the eu was 2,993,000, how on earth do these non eu countries ever manage to do it ???
Where do I say that?
I didnt say you did, but you keep saying we aregoing to lose trade because we might not be in the single market anymore and that being in it has bought more trade, many posts from remainers seem to imply that either no trade will happen or that trade will be seriously reduced,both senarios are pure conjecture and my post was pointing out that the eu has as much trade with non eu countries as it does with other eu members and we can and will trade happily with the eu as we do now
There are tariff barriers and non tariff barriers to trade. At the moment we don't have those with the EU. Once we leave we will have both. That will negatively impact on the amount of trade. Very simple.
However, if you don't agree with the above, please can you explain why so many Brexiters are keen on new Free trade deals?
It doesn't make sense to try and create a free trade deal if that doesn't boost trade does it? "I hope that I can rely on our experts to enter only those trade deals that do boost trade. | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork. "Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push. But put it this way... If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead. -Matt | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork.
Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push.
But put it this way...
If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead.
-Matt"And how long will it take you to do that journey in 2030? Yup, you might as well ask your dog. | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork.
Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push.
But put it this way...
If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead.
-Matt
And how long will it take you to do that journey in 2030?
Yup, you might as well ask your dog."Well, the distance is still going to be about 100 Miles. And a car is likely to not get that much faster... so probably still about an hour and a half. As far as I know there are no plans for an ultra-high speed motorway direct between those two points..... But... maybe they do? Or maybe they put in a speed limit of 50 mph because we have a fuel shortage. Does that make my initial prediction a waste of time? No, but I have to adjust my guess with new information when it arrives, rather than dogmatically stick to my first 'guess'. -Matt | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork.
Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push.
But put it this way...
If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead.
-Matt
And how long will it take you to do that journey in 2030?
Yup, you might as well ask your dog.
Well, the distance is still going to be about 100 Miles. And a car is likely to not get that much faster... so probably still about an hour and a half. As far as I know there are no plans for an ultra-high speed motorway direct between those two points.....
But... maybe they do? Or maybe they put in a speed limit of 50 mph because we have a fuel shortage. Does that make my initial prediction a waste of time? No, but I have to adjust my guess with new information when it arrives, rather than dogmatically stick to my first 'guess'.
-Matt"You will have to factor in many unknowns, including car speed, ownership, developments, public transport and environmental conditions. Go on, have a go. £4,300 by 2030? Really? A sensible prediction? Go on, just for once admit that it was a pile of poo. | |||
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"Who is better at the 100m, you or Usain Bolt? Who is better at maths, you or Carol Vorderman? Who is better at physics, you or Stephen Hawking? Who is better at economics, you or the Bank of England? " Usain Bolt. Carol Vorderman. Stephen Hawkins. As for economics, take your pick. There are many different versions and none is a science. | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork.
Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push.
But put it this way...
If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead.
-Matt"The main point is Brexit has not happened before there for most things are going to be guesswork. There are 2 very important Elections in the next year that could change things drastically. Everyone has an opinion but that's all it is an opinion as no one knows what will happen. | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork.
Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push.
But put it this way...
If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead.
-Matt
The main point is Brexit has not happened before there for most things are going to be guesswork. There are 2 very important Elections in the next year that could change things drastically. Everyone has an opinion but that's all it is an opinion as no one knows what will happen."Yup. So George's prediction was based on fiction and agenda. How the fook could he possibly come up with a figure of £4,300? An entire work of fiction. You can agree, really? | |||
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"Who is better at the 100m, you or Usain Bolt? Who is better at maths, you or Carol Vorderman? Who is better at physics, you or Stephen Hawking? Who is better at economics, you or the Bank of England? " Why not google 'how often are economists correct' - and you might stop asking stupid questions. for example Jan Hatzius the chief economist of Goldman Sachs says nobody has a clue, its hugely difficult to predict the business cycle. another says if the question involves predicting the value of the stock market next year economists aren't any better than a monkey with a dartboard. and on it goes. | |||
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"Who is better at the 100m, you or Usain Bolt? Who is better at maths, you or Carol Vorderman? Who is better at physics, you or Stephen Hawking? Who is better at economics, you or the Bank of England? Why not google 'how often are economists correct' - and you might stop asking stupid questions. for example Jan Hatzius the chief economist of Goldman Sachs says nobody has a clue, its hugely difficult to predict the business cycle. another says if the question involves predicting the value of the stock market next year economists aren't any better than a monkey with a dartboard. and on it goes." I knew an advisor to the Treasury. Bloody brilliant mind. Seriously intelligent. Her economic predictions were limited to next week. After that, it all becomes a bit pointless, apparently. | |||
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"Who is better at the 100m, you or Usain Bolt? Who is better at maths, you or Carol Vorderman? Who is better at physics, you or Stephen Hawking? Who is better at economics, you or the Bank of England? Usain Bolt. Carol Vorderman. Stephen Hawkins. As for economics, take your pick. There are many different versions and none is a science." bolt is here and now carol will answer a question that has a definitive answer hawkins will do much the same but often make predictions based on assumptions The BOE will be making predicitons based on thousands of bits of info long into the future, the variation of any of which could turn the answer on its head. How many of their predicitons about the economic crash came true ?Oh they didnt see it coming did they so why you think a prediciton about 2030 is going to happen is beyond reason | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork.
Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push.
But put it this way...
If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead.
-Matt
The main point is Brexit has not happened before there for most things are going to be guesswork. There are 2 very important Elections in the next year that could change things drastically. Everyone has an opinion but that's all it is an opinion as no one knows what will happen." | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork.
Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push.
But put it this way...
If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead.
-Matt"Do you remember about a month ago,the experts found another two hundred trillion stars. One to the power ten more than their previous calculations, or for the layman amongst us, quite a lot. Then about two years ago,when they told us there were eight hundred billion trees worldwide, then they found an extra two trillion two hundred billion trees. Again for the layman amongst us, quite a lot. If they're the kind of experts you're relying on,for a time on that journey. Then you really would be better asking your dog. Even if it can only give you a RUFF RUFF estimate. | |||
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"How about "Each household will be £4,300 worse off?" But that's in 2030.
Exactly! So you cant say that that wont happen can you?
I can't say that Santa Claus won't park his sleigh on my house but I can make a judgement about an economic forecast that projects guesswork into 2030.
Exactly! Like a lot of there "experts" its all guesswork.
Indeed. Or rather, predictions and estimates. Some will be right, some will be wrong. And to various degrees. But the mentality I'm seeing a lot is people disregarding any advice or predictions because they either have decided that they don't trust any data, information, or evidence at all. Or they don't trust people with experience in working with that information. Now, that is not to say all 'experts' are equal, and that there are not some people out there with agendas to push.
But put it this way...
If I ask you "How long will it take to drive from Bristol to Birmingham", you could take a guess. You'd either work on your own experience or that of others (last time it took me an hour and a half). You might even look at some facts and figures... it is about 100 miles and I drive at 50 MPH on average, hence it will take two hours. But I could turn around and say "But that is just a guess! You have no idea how long it would take!" and you would quite rightly tell me that you have a vague idea. I would then say "Yeah, but you are relying on experts! you don't know! How do you know if that speed or distance is correct!". And I then decide to ignore your 'guess' and ask my dog instead.
-Matt
And how long will it take you to do that journey in 2030?
Yup, you might as well ask your dog.
Well, the distance is still going to be about 100 Miles. And a car is likely to not get that much faster... so probably still about an hour and a half. As far as I know there are no plans for an ultra-high speed motorway direct between those two points.....
But... maybe they do? Or maybe they put in a speed limit of 50 mph because we have a fuel shortage. Does that make my initial prediction a waste of time? No, but I have to adjust my guess with new information when it arrives, rather than dogmatically stick to my first 'guess'.
-Matt"I am at a loss to understand why anyone would compare a car journey to economic predictions . In your example of the car journey how do you account for traffic conditions , weather and the time of day ? In predicting the future of a economy you are only making an informed guess based on a wide variety of unknowns .And in any event who cares ? . | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue!" Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand." If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . " We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have? | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have?" What you don't seem to realise is that with every year that passes trade with the EU declines as a percentage and becomes less important to us. In the early 2000s the EU accounted for about two thirds of UK trade, this year it is down to about 40% and all this is within the constraints of the EU. It is forecast that on this trajectory in 10-15 years the EU will only account for around 30% and by 2050 as little as 5%. The time was right to leave | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have?" Actually, we don't. We pay to trade with the EU. | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have? What you don't seem to realise is that with every year that passes trade with the EU declines as a percentage and becomes less important to us. In the early 2000s the EU accounted for about two thirds of UK trade, this year it is down to about 40% and all this is within the constraints of the EU. It is forecast that on this trajectory in 10-15 years the EU will only account for around 30% and by 2050 as little as 5%. The time was right to leave" This is yet another case of BREXIT misinformation and distortion of the truth. It's based on a truthful statistic but is used to hide the truth about the real situation. The statistic used, which is true, is that the amount of trade we do with the EU has fallen over the last 10 years from around 60% to closer to 40% now (the actual figures are about 55% to 45%). What this statistic hides is that, over the last 10 years the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up year on year by as much as 10%. The reason why the percentage of trade we do with the EU is lower than it was is not because we are doing less trade with the EU, we're actually doing more, but, over the same time period, we have increased our trade with the rest of the world by even more. It's actually a good news story but BREXITers try to paint it as bad news. As for your figure of our trade with the EU dropping to 5% by 2050, I doubt that is likely even if we leave the single market and customs union but I'd love to know where that figure is sourced from and what assumptions have been made to reach it. | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have? Actually, we don't. We pay to trade with the EU. " We don't pay to trade. We are a net contributor to the EU but, even if we were net gainers, we would still have the same trade arrangements with the EU as we currently have now. But you haven't actually answered the question; what extra access to the EU market that we don't have now is this new post BREXIT trade deal you talked about going to give us? | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have? Actually, we don't. We pay to trade with the EU. We don't pay to trade. We are a net contributor to the EU but, even if we were net gainers, we would still have the same trade arrangements with the EU as we currently have now. But you haven't actually answered the question; what extra access to the EU market that we don't have now is this new post BREXIT trade deal you talked about going to give us? " I haven't talked about any deal. But, yes, we are a net contributor. So we pay to trade with the EU. | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have? What you don't seem to realise is that with every year that passes trade with the EU declines as a percentage and becomes less important to us. In the early 2000s the EU accounted for about two thirds of UK trade, this year it is down to about 40% and all this is within the constraints of the EU. It is forecast that on this trajectory in 10-15 years the EU will only account for around 30% and by 2050 as little as 5%. The time was right to leave This is yet another case of BREXIT misinformation and distortion of the truth. It's based on a truthful statistic but is used to hide the truth about the real situation. The statistic used, which is true, is that the amount of trade we do with the EU has fallen over the last 10 years from around 60% to closer to 40% now (the actual figures are about 55% to 45%). What this statistic hides is that, over the last 10 years the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up year on year by as much as 10%. The reason why the percentage of trade we do with the EU is lower than it was is not because we are doing less trade with the EU, we're actually doing more, but, over the same time period, we have increased our trade with the rest of the world by even more. It's actually a good news story but BREXITers try to paint it as bad news. As for your figure of our trade with the EU dropping to 5% by 2050, I doubt that is likely even if we leave the single market and customs union but I'd love to know where that figure is sourced from and what assumptions have been made to reach it." The figures aren't trying to hide or distort anything and neither was I, you've just confirmed what I said. I never said we do less business with the EU just that the percentage share when compared to the rest of the world is getting less and less | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have? What you don't seem to realise is that with every year that passes trade with the EU declines as a percentage and becomes less important to us. In the early 2000s the EU accounted for about two thirds of UK trade, this year it is down to about 40% and all this is within the constraints of the EU. It is forecast that on this trajectory in 10-15 years the EU will only account for around 30% and by 2050 as little as 5%. The time was right to leave This is yet another case of BREXIT misinformation and distortion of the truth. It's based on a truthful statistic but is used to hide the truth about the real situation. The statistic used, which is true, is that the amount of trade we do with the EU has fallen over the last 10 years from around 60% to closer to 40% now (the actual figures are about 55% to 45%). What this statistic hides is that, over the last 10 years the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up year on year by as much as 10%. The reason why the percentage of trade we do with the EU is lower than it was is not because we are doing less trade with the EU, we're actually doing more, but, over the same time period, we have increased our trade with the rest of the world by even more. It's actually a good news story but BREXITers try to paint it as bad news. As for your figure of our trade with the EU dropping to 5% by 2050, I doubt that is likely even if we leave the single market and customs union but I'd love to know where that figure is sourced from and what assumptions have been made to reach it. The figures aren't trying to hide or distort anything and neither was I, you've just confirmed what I said. I never said we do less business with the EU just that the percentage share when compared to the rest of the world is getting less and less" I love the way Brexiters say no economist know whats going to happen in 1 year or 2 years etc. but are quite happy to accept a figure for 2050 if it supports their argument! Which would be better for the UK, if we did 100% more trade with Fiji next year compared to this year, or we 10% more trade with the EU next year than we did this year? | |||
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" I love the way Brexiters say no economist know whats going to happen in 1 year or 2 years etc. but are quite happy to accept a figure for 2050 if it supports their argument! " Well, of course. All the sneering about how silly experts are is just because the Brexiters don't like what they have to say. If the exact same organisations and people suddenly started saying Brexit is going to be a massive success then the Brexiters would be shouting about it deliriously forever. | |||
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"you seem to be missing the point !!!! the figure is 350 million gross But we get a rebate and that seems to be the sticking point for you guys. It would be better if there was no rebate and the payment was 250 million end of confusion We still pay into the club far more than we get out of it !!!! Not my kind of club really On that link I posted the thoughts are we have paid in around 500 billion since 1973 It would be interesting if someone could post a link to see what we actually got back from the EU since 1973 But you are completely ignoring that being in the EU (and predecessor organisations) has brought more trade, more trade means more taxes, and more taxes means more money in the exchequer. That's why leaving the single market/customs union will cost us £22bn a year. So which is cheaper? £6.6bn a year to stay, or £22bn a year to leave? If that is to be believed, why didn't the Remain camp put that out there pre referendum? Experts are quoting figures here and there, skewed as to what side of the fence they sit on. Truth is, nobody has got a clue! Remainers did put that figure, along with a lot of others, pre referendum. Leavers decided, rather than challenge them and produce some sort of plan to avoid those costs post BREXIT, to call it project fear and ignore it. Unfortunately for all of us, ignoring doesn't change the likely out come. You don't have to be an expert in anything to be able to realise that making it harder to trade with your biggest, richest and closest customers is going to cost you money, even if you do manage to increase some trade with smaller, poorer and further away customers. What part of that totally logical and reasonable equation is it that BREXITers don't seem able to understand. If we negotiate a free trade agreement we will have saved all the contributions we make without incurring any extra costs . All we have to do is have faith in Teressa May to negotiate a good deal. I have absolute confidence in her . We already have a truly free trade deal with the EU that allows totally barrier free and unhindered access to the EU's markets, with a legally binding court of arbitration. What extra access is this new post BREXIT trade deal going to offer that we don't currently have? What you don't seem to realise is that with every year that passes trade with the EU declines as a percentage and becomes less important to us. In the early 2000s the EU accounted for about two thirds of UK trade, this year it is down to about 40% and all this is within the constraints of the EU. It is forecast that on this trajectory in 10-15 years the EU will only account for around 30% and by 2050 as little as 5%. The time was right to leave This is yet another case of BREXIT misinformation and distortion of the truth. It's based on a truthful statistic but is used to hide the truth about the real situation. The statistic used, which is true, is that the amount of trade we do with the EU has fallen over the last 10 years from around 60% to closer to 40% now (the actual figures are about 55% to 45%). What this statistic hides is that, over the last 10 years the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up year on year by as much as 10%. The reason why the percentage of trade we do with the EU is lower than it was is not because we are doing less trade with the EU, we're actually doing more, but, over the same time period, we have increased our trade with the rest of the world by even more. It's actually a good news story but BREXITers try to paint it as bad news. As for your figure of our trade with the EU dropping to 5% by 2050, I doubt that is likely even if we leave the single market and customs union but I'd love to know where that figure is sourced from and what assumptions have been made to reach it. The figures aren't trying to hide or distort anything and neither was I, you've just confirmed what I said. I never said we do less business with the EU just that the percentage share when compared to the rest of the world is getting less and less I love the way Brexiters say no economist know whats going to happen in 1 year or 2 years etc. but are quite happy to accept a figure for 2050 if it supports their argument! Which would be better for the UK, if we did 100% more trade with Fiji next year compared to this year, or we 10% more trade with the EU next year than we did this year? " This is nothing to do with economists and wild predictions, this is following facts from recent history and the course we are already on. And the 2nd point shows you haven't understood things, they are the percentages of total value/worth of trade. Times are changing and the world is now a much smaller place, you need to get out of the little Europeaner mindset | |||
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" I love the way Brexiters say no economist know whats going to happen in 1 year or 2 years etc. but are quite happy to accept a figure for 2050 if it supports their argument! Which would be better for the UK, if we did 100% more trade with Fiji next year compared to this year, or we 10% more trade with the EU next year than we did this year? This is nothing to do with economists and wild predictions, this is following facts from recent history and the course we are already on. And the 2nd point shows you haven't understood things, they are the percentages of total value/worth of trade. Times are changing and the world is now a much smaller place, you need to get out of the little Europeaner mindset" You really don't understand what economists do if you genuinely believe that they don't "follow facts from recent history" or what I would call 'looking at the data', and instead think that they look at no data and literally just make it up based on nothing. You didn't answer my second point, but when I have previously asked which would be better to have £100 and have that increase by 10%, or have £1 and increase by 100% you said you would rather have the £1 with a 100% increase (that makes £2). You say I have a small European mindset, yet you are the one planning on moving to Spain, why don't you broaden your horizons a little bit more and move to somewhere like Congo or Lebanon or Kazakhstan? | |||
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" I love the way Brexiters say no economist know whats going to happen in 1 year or 2 years etc. but are quite happy to accept a figure for 2050 if it supports their argument! Which would be better for the UK, if we did 100% more trade with Fiji next year compared to this year, or we 10% more trade with the EU next year than we did this year? This is nothing to do with economists and wild predictions, this is following facts from recent history and the course we are already on. And the 2nd point shows you haven't understood things, they are the percentages of total value/worth of trade. Times are changing and the world is now a much smaller place, you need to get out of the little Europeaner mindset You really don't understand what economists do if you genuinely believe that they don't "follow facts from recent history" or what I would call 'looking at the data', and instead think that they look at no data and literally just make it up based on nothing. You didn't answer my second point, but when I have previously asked which would be better to have £100 and have that increase by 10%, or have £1 and increase by 100% you said you would rather have the £1 with a 100% increase (that makes £2). You say I have a small European mindset, yet you are the one planning on moving to Spain, why don't you broaden your horizons a little bit more and move to somewhere like Congo or Lebanon or Kazakhstan?" Because I like Spain. And on the second point you are still not getting it. If I sell 4 cars to the EU and 4 cars to the rest of the world one year and the next I sell 6 to the EU and 8 to the rest of the world, which market is growing bigger/faster and making more money? Is that simple enough? And I know economists look at history but a fat lot of good it does them when predicting recessions etc. What I'm talking about is actually happenning now and will continue that way, nobody, other than maybe you, will dispute that | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt" Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking "what is it that you don't understand? | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?"I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase. | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase."jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough? | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?"Before you said that a 100% increase on £1 was better than a 10% increase on £100, so are you admitting that you were wrong before? | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?"The first year you sold 50 to the EU, the next year you sold 80 so that IS an actual increase! | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?
Before you said that a 100% increase on £1 was better than a 10% increase on £100, so are you admitting that you were wrong before? "that was a different context | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?
The first year you sold 50 to the EU, the next year you sold 80 so that IS an actual increase! "I never said it wasn't. I said the EU share of our trade is decreasing. Or do you disagree with the actual figures? | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?
The first year you sold 50 to the EU, the next year you sold 80 so that IS an actual increase!
I never said it wasn't. I said the EU share of our trade is decreasing. Or do you disagree with the actual figures?"Again, you are proof we are living in a post truth world. You said "If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that NOT an actual increase" That IS an increase, you said its NOT and increase and are now denying you said it, when you have even quoted it!!!!! | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?
The first year you sold 50 to the EU, the next year you sold 80 so that IS an actual increase!
I never said it wasn't. I said the EU share of our trade is decreasing. Or do you disagree with the actual figures?
Again, you are proof we are living in a post truth world. You said "If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that NOT an actual increase"
That IS an increase, you said its NOT and increase and are now denying you said it, when you have even quoted it!!!!! "IS that NOT? Not that is NOT ffs. learn to read | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?
The first year you sold 50 to the EU, the next year you sold 80 so that IS an actual increase!
I never said it wasn't. I said the EU share of our trade is decreasing. Or do you disagree with the actual figures?
Again, you are proof we are living in a post truth world. You said "If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that NOT an actual increase"
That IS an increase, you said its NOT and increase and are now denying you said it, when you have even quoted it!!!!!
IS that NOT? Not that is NOT ffs.
learn to read"It's Christmas, I'll throw you a bone and let you hide behind your terrible writing to cover your embarrassment at flip flopping and forgetting what your point was | |||
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" We actually have more than we need. -)" Many in this country do, but many more dont feel that is true,a big part of the problem is that those in the former group dont have sympathy for those in the later | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?"So we are in agreement that total trade with the EU has increased, not decreased. Pity you didn't make that point clear when you first quoted the statistic. I'm still genuinely interested to know where you sourced the figure of UK trade dropping to 5% by 2050 and what assumptions were made to reach that figure. | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?
The first year you sold 50 to the EU, the next year you sold 80 so that IS an actual increase!
I never said it wasn't. I said the EU share of our trade is decreasing. Or do you disagree with the actual figures?"I agree that, counter to the historical trend, over the last 10 years the percentage of our total world trade done with the EU has fallen. However it is misleading to quote that statistic without also pointing out that are actual trade with the EU has actually gone up, not down. | |||
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" We actually have more than we need. -) Many in this country do, but many more dont feel that is true,a big part of the problem is that those in the former group dont have sympathy for those in the later " I agree. | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?
The first year you sold 50 to the EU, the next year you sold 80 so that IS an actual increase!
I never said it wasn't. I said the EU share of our trade is decreasing. Or do you disagree with the actual figures?
Again, you are proof we are living in a post truth world. You said "If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that NOT an actual increase"
That IS an increase, you said its NOT and increase and are now denying you said it, when you have even quoted it!!!!! "I thought she'd said that to when I first read it but when I read what she'd written more carefully she actually said "is that not an increase to both" | |||
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"Reminds me of landing in a tiny airport in Sweden about 20 years ago. There was a sign proudly saying 'Europe's fastest growing airport!' They had 4 flights that day. The whole day. I'm only guessing that maybe they only had two flights a day last year and had doubled in capacity lol -Matt Much more impressive than Heathrow then! Well, according to CandMs thinking
what is it that you don't understand?
I don't understand why you think a percentage increase is better than an actual increase.
jeez it is an actual increase! If one year I have 100 apples and sell half to the EU and half to the rest of the world then that is 50% of my trade to each. If the next year I have 200 apples and sell 80 to the EU and 120 to the rest of the world is that not an actual increase to both but a higher percentage increase to the rest of the world? Is that simple enough?
So we are in agreement that total trade with the EU has increased, not decreased. Pity you didn't make that point clear when you first quoted the statistic.
I'm still genuinely interested to know where you sourced the figure of UK trade dropping to 5% by 2050 and what assumptions were made to reach that figure."Adam Slater of Oxford Economics in the Telegraph, though I have to admit I thought that figure was bollocks too | |||
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