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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt " And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... | |||
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"Guy Verhofstadt 'We have no plans for the future of the EU without Britain,' admits European Parliament's chief Brexit negotiator Europhiles have repeatedly accused. Guy Verhofstadt says remaining 27 member states are poorly prepared for Brexit negotiations. The MEP and ex-Belgian PM called on EU leaders to urgently draw up ideas.... Brussels has ‘no clear plans for the future’ of the EU without Britain, the European Parliament’s chief Brexit negotiator admitted today. Guy Verhofstadt said the remaining 27 member states are ill prepared for the UK's departure. The MEP and former Belgian prime minister called on leaders to urgently draw up ideas at a Brussels summit later this week. Speaking at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, he said: ‘My hope is that in this last meeting that the European Council preparing the new year, 2017, will have strong conclusions on the way forward with the EU. ‘I have to tell you that the first draft that I have seen was not very convincing. It was very general remarks but no clear plans for the future.’ The question, of course, should be "When will the EU discuss their Brexit plan and strategy in the EU parliament, and have it approved by all of its members?" Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament, has said today.. "The UK has voted to leave the EU... they are one of the G7, one of the largest economies in the world, the second largest contributor to the EU, a permanent member of the UN security council, one of the founding members of NATO...... The EU is weakened without the UK" " We known the EU is weekend by the departure of the UK. The reality is that BREXIT is bad for both the UK and the EU and why no one who really cares about either supports it or thinks it's a good idea. | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50....." It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now. | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now." if you take the politics out of it why is it not possible? | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now." And how long has the article 50 clause been in the treaties? And there is no defined process, or plan, within those clauses and treaties if someone wants to leave? Remainers keep bleating on about there being 'no brexit plan', and yet the wonderful EU hasn't got a diddly either! And actually, the EU not having a plan IS our problem, because now they've got to go through the rigmarole of coming up with a plan... only there's 27 different countries got to agree - kind of makes our coming up with a plan look like a walk in the park.... | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now. And how long has the article 50 clause been in the treaties? And there is no defined process, or plan, within those clauses and treaties if someone wants to leave? Remainers keep bleating on about there being 'no brexit plan', and yet the wonderful EU hasn't got a diddly either! And actually, the EU not having a plan IS our problem, because now they've got to go through the rigmarole of coming up with a plan... only there's 27 different countries got to agree - kind of makes our coming up with a plan look like a walk in the park...." But you BREXUTers seem to think there is some way we can leave the EU without it hurting either us or them. No else thinks that. So we're waiting to hear from you guys how this can be done. When you going to show us? | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now. if you take the politics out of it why is it not possible?" It's little to do with politics yet and more to do with simple economics. If you make it harder for yourself to do business with your largest, richest and closest market in some forlorn hope that you'll do more business with smaller, poorer and further away markets, you're just going to make yourself poorer, and probably the people you were trading with before to. Europe and the rest of the world can see this. I can't understand how come so many BREXITers can't. Whatever arguments there maybe for BREXIT there never was, and never will be, a good economic case for it. That's why the EU has no plan, because there is no plan possible that is not either loose, loose or really loose, loose. But if the BREXITers have one now maybe you should start sharing it with us. | |||
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"I don't see why the EU needs a post brexit plan. Since Thatcher gained power in 79 we have a history of refusing to integrate, demanding opt-outs and special treatment. We have even demanded that the rules of the single market give us preferential treatment. With our leaving we lose all that and will have to play by EU rules if we want to continue to have the same access to the single market. Seems to me that the only worry that the EU has is that if they give us anything but a punishing exit deal other countries nationalists may gain support and force the breakup of the EU. I think many who believe they have won a really special prise are in for some extremely unpleasant surprises over the next two or three years." And yet probably her greatest achievement was the creation of the Single Market. Funny how so many who worship her seem to want to undo her greatest achievement. | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now. if you take the politics out of it why is it not possible? It's little to do with politics yet and more to do with simple economics. If you make it harder for yourself to do business with your largest, richest and closest market in some forlorn hope that you'll do more business with smaller, poorer and further away markets, you're just going to make yourself poorer, and probably the people you were trading with before to. Europe and the rest of the world can see this. I can't understand how come so many BREXITers can't. Whatever arguments there maybe for BREXIT there never was, and never will be, a good economic case for it. That's why the EU has no plan, because there is no plan possible that is not either loose, loose or really loose, loose. But if the BREXITers have one now maybe you should start sharing it with us." Don't you ever watch the news or keep up on current events? The Brexit secretary David Davis said details of the Uk's exit plan will be revealed sometime in February 2017 just the other day. This will be in accordance with the motion that was voted on in Parliament the other week where MP's agreed to vote in favour of triggering article 50 by March 31st 2017 as long as details of an exit plan are released by the government before that date. | |||
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"Guy Verhofstadt 'We have no plans for the future of the EU without Britain,' admits European Parliament's chief Brexit negotiator Europhiles have repeatedly accused. Guy Verhofstadt says remaining 27 member states are poorly prepared for Brexit negotiations. The MEP and ex-Belgian PM called on EU leaders to urgently draw up ideas.... Brussels has ‘no clear plans for the future’ of the EU without Britain, the European Parliament’s chief Brexit negotiator admitted today. Guy Verhofstadt said the remaining 27 member states are ill prepared for the UK's departure. The MEP and former Belgian prime minister called on leaders to urgently draw up ideas at a Brussels summit later this week. Speaking at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, he said: ‘My hope is that in this last meeting that the European Council preparing the new year, 2017, will have strong conclusions on the way forward with the EU. ‘I have to tell you that the first draft that I have seen was not very convincing. It was very general remarks but no clear plans for the future.’ The question, of course, should be "When will the EU discuss their Brexit plan and strategy in the EU parliament, and have it approved by all of its members?" Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament, has said today.. "The UK has voted to leave the EU... they are one of the G7, one of the largest economies in the world, the second largest contributor to the EU, a permanent member of the UN security council, one of the founding members of NATO...... The EU is weakened without the UK" " Not surprised the EU has no plan, because it seems the EU never has a plan for anything, or when it does have some semblance of a plan it quickly unravels as all the members squabble over what the final outcome should be. The EU's incompetence is becoming a regular occurrence on a number of issues, (not just Brexit) so why would anyone expect anything other than incompetence from the EU on Brexit negotiations? | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now. if you take the politics out of it why is it not possible? It's little to do with politics yet and more to do with simple economics. If you make it harder for yourself to do business with your largest, richest and closest market in some forlorn hope that you'll do more business with smaller, poorer and further away markets, you're just going to make yourself poorer, and probably the people you were trading with before to. Europe and the rest of the world can see this. I can't understand how come so many BREXITers can't. Whatever arguments there maybe for BREXIT there never was, and never will be, a good economic case for it. That's why the EU has no plan, because there is no plan possible that is not either loose, loose or really loose, loose. But if the BREXITers have one now maybe you should start sharing it with us." what do you mean little to do with politics? So who is going to make it harder to trade with one another? Businesses? It is all to do with politics and once the posturing is over it is business that will have the final say. That is simple economics | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now. if you take the politics out of it why is it not possible? It's little to do with politics yet and more to do with simple economics. If you make it harder for yourself to do business with your largest, richest and closest market in some forlorn hope that you'll do more business with smaller, poorer and further away markets, you're just going to make yourself poorer, and probably the people you were trading with before to. Europe and the rest of the world can see this. I can't understand how come so many BREXITers can't. Whatever arguments there maybe for BREXIT there never was, and never will be, a good economic case for it. That's why the EU has no plan, because there is no plan possible that is not either loose, loose or really loose, loose. But if the BREXITers have one now maybe you should start sharing it with us. what do you mean little to do with politics? So who is going to make it harder to trade with one another? Businesses? It is all to do with politics and once the posturing is over it is business that will have the final say. That is simple economics" if business and simple economics have the final say ..as you suggest then there would be no Brexit | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? " How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. | |||
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"Guy Verhofstadt 'We have no plans for the future of the EU without Britain,' admits European Parliament's chief Brexit negotiator Europhiles have repeatedly accused. Guy Verhofstadt says remaining 27 member states are poorly prepared for Brexit negotiations. The MEP and ex-Belgian PM called on EU leaders to urgently draw up ideas.... Brussels has ‘no clear plans for the future’ of the EU without Britain, the European Parliament’s chief Brexit negotiator admitted today. Guy Verhofstadt said the remaining 27 member states are ill prepared for the UK's departure. The MEP and former Belgian prime minister called on leaders to urgently draw up ideas at a Brussels summit later this week. Speaking at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, he said: ‘My hope is that in this last meeting that the European Council preparing the new year, 2017, will have strong conclusions on the way forward with the EU. ‘I have to tell you that the first draft that I have seen was not very convincing. It was very general remarks but no clear plans for the future.’ The question, of course, should be "When will the EU discuss their Brexit plan and strategy in the EU parliament, and have it approved by all of its members?" Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament, has said today.. "The UK has voted to leave the EU... they are one of the G7, one of the largest economies in the world, the second largest contributor to the EU, a permanent member of the UN security council, one of the founding members of NATO...... The EU is weakened without the UK" Not surprised the EU has no plan, because it seems the EU never has a plan for anything, or when it does have some semblance of a plan it quickly unravels as all the members squabble over what the final outcome should be. The EU's incompetence is becoming a regular occurrence on a number of issues, (not just Brexit) so why would anyone expect anything other than incompetence from the EU on Brexit negotiations? " Canadian trade deal anyone?   | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start." See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought." See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought." Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? " why do you support the EU over the UK? | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? why do you support the EU over the UK?" Its not about supporting the EU over the UK, its like me walking into Tesco and asking them if they have a plan of what they are going to sell me today. Its ridiculous. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? why do you support the EU over the UK? Its not about supporting the EU over the UK, its like me walking into Tesco and asking them if they have a plan of what they are going to sell me today. Its ridiculous." so Tesco don't put offers on? Or plan ahead for business? | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? " Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do." Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? " Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating." Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake!" Phew!!! Thank god you are not on the negotiating team then. You would get stitched up like a kipper (pardon the pun) | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. " Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? why do you support the EU over the UK? Its not about supporting the EU over the UK, its like me walking into Tesco and asking them if they have a plan of what they are going to sell me today. Its ridiculous." You clearly haven't got a clue about how supermarkets or businesses work either, or are very naive.. Tesco are constantly planning about what they're going to sell, and to who... as all supermarkets do. Supermarket systems are among the most sophisticated marketing and analysis tools in the world. Hand your loyalty card over, and they know exactly how often you shop, what times, what days, your spending habits, what you buy, how often you buy products, what brands... etc, etc, etc. Banks know similar details every time you use a card, websites specifically target advertising, etc, etc, etc. Why do you think they are constantly moving things around? To wind customers up? They look at what they sell, and who buys it. So, for example, if they notice that a certain demographic buy a lot of, say, pizzas, and they want to increase soup sales to them, guess what? They move the soup next to the pizzas. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment." You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you? 
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.  | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. " And you say brexiters are thick?!!! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. And you say brexiters are thick?!!!" Sorry, but if you think you can go into a negotiation and NOT say what you are even trying to negotiate about, you just sit there, refusing to say, then yes you are pretty darn thick! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters. "Now you really are in my domain. Welcome to the dark side. The restaurant one is simple nonsense because there is no negotiating position. You read the menu, pick what you want, and bingo you get it. As for the car dealership example. Oh how I would have loved a few hundred customers like you. Tell me everything I want to know (truthfully) in the first five minutes and you bollocks are in my pocket. LOL. We used to go on training courses on how to extract information from customers. Of course most (not all) would tell you what they are looking for, but wait until you ask "how much do you want to spend"? or "what do you want for your PX"? among other things and then it is a game of cat and mouse. Believe me. There is a dark side in negotiation and I practised the art for over 25 years. The Brexit negotiations will be no different. Both sides will hold their cards very close to their chest, dish out plenty of mis-information, and like in any bazaar start high and settle in the middle. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters. "Ok, car analogy first.... I wouldn't tell all and sundry exactly what car I wanted, how much I'm willing to pay for it, and how much I'd accept for mine in part exchange first, so then Honest John in the car showroom knows exactly what he's facing. You, however, clearly would send the car dealer a nice letter giving him all this information up front. There's only one winner in that, I'm afraid.... it ain't you, it's Honest John, the car salesman.... and trust me, he'll do anything he can to rip you off. Secondly, not sure what restaurants you go to, but I've never had to negotiate at one yet. Nice of you to equate the EU with Honest John the car salesman. Which muppet are you.... Gonzo? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.
Ok, car analogy first.... I wouldn't tell all and sundry exactly what car I wanted, how much I'm willing to pay for it, and how much I'd accept for mine in part exchange first, so then Honest John in the car showroom knows exactly what he's facing.
You, however, clearly would send the car dealer a nice letter giving him all this information up front. There's only one winner in that, I'm afraid.... it ain't you, it's Honest John, the car salesman.... and trust me, he'll do anything he can to rip you off.
Secondly, not sure what restaurants you go to, but I've never had to negotiate at one yet.
Nice of you to equate the EU with Honest John the car salesman.
Which muppet are you.... Gonzo?"I was thinking more like Fozzy. I was "Honest John" for years LOL | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.
Now you really are in my domain.
Welcome to the dark side.
The restaurant one is simple nonsense because there is no negotiating position. You read the menu, pick what you want, and bingo you get it.
As for the car dealership example.
Oh how I would have loved a few hundred customers like you.
Tell me everything I want to know (truthfully) in the first five minutes and you bollocks are in my pocket. LOL.
We used to go on training courses on how to extract information from customers. Of course most (not all) would tell you what they are looking for, but wait until you ask "how much do you want to spend"? or "what do you want for your PX"? among other things and then it is a game of cat and mouse.
Believe me. There is a dark side in negotiation and I practised the art for over 25 years.
The Brexit negotiations will be no different. Both sides will hold their cards very close to their chest, dish out plenty of mis-information, and like in any bazaar start high and settle in the middle.
"But you don’t want to say ANYTHING, you want to give away NOTHING. If you have 25 years of car sales, lets play this out. I wander in to your show room and start looking around You - “Hi, is there anything in particular that you are looking for?” Me - stares back at you in silence You - “Are you looking for a new or a used car? Me - stares back at you in silence You - “Are you looking to part exchange?” Me - stares back at you in silence....... Now imagine that I do that EVERYDAY for 2 years. How far will our negotiation have got by the end of the 2 years? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.
Now you really are in my domain.
Welcome to the dark side.
The restaurant one is simple nonsense because there is no negotiating position. You read the menu, pick what you want, and bingo you get it.
As for the car dealership example.
Oh how I would have loved a few hundred customers like you.
Tell me everything I want to know (truthfully) in the first five minutes and you bollocks are in my pocket. LOL.
We used to go on training courses on how to extract information from customers. Of course most (not all) would tell you what they are looking for, but wait until you ask "how much do you want to spend"? or "what do you want for your PX"? among other things and then it is a game of cat and mouse.
Believe me. There is a dark side in negotiation and I practised the art for over 25 years.
The Brexit negotiations will be no different. Both sides will hold their cards very close to their chest, dish out plenty of mis-information, and like in any bazaar start high and settle in the middle.
But you don’t want to say ANYTHING, you want to give away NOTHING. If you have 25 years of car sales, lets play this out.
I wander in to your show room and start looking around
You - “Hi, is there anything in particular that you are looking for?”
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking for a new or a used car?
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking to part exchange?”
Me - stares back at you in silence.......
Now imagine that I do that EVERYDAY for 2 years. How far will our negotiation have got by the end of the 2 years?"You do realise that we're not yet at the point where we've walked into the showroom, don't you? Are are you really that obtuse? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.
Now you really are in my domain.
Welcome to the dark side.
The restaurant one is simple nonsense because there is no negotiating position. You read the menu, pick what you want, and bingo you get it.
As for the car dealership example.
Oh how I would have loved a few hundred customers like you.
Tell me everything I want to know (truthfully) in the first five minutes and you bollocks are in my pocket. LOL.
We used to go on training courses on how to extract information from customers. Of course most (not all) would tell you what they are looking for, but wait until you ask "how much do you want to spend"? or "what do you want for your PX"? among other things and then it is a game of cat and mouse.
Believe me. There is a dark side in negotiation and I practised the art for over 25 years.
The Brexit negotiations will be no different. Both sides will hold their cards very close to their chest, dish out plenty of mis-information, and like in any bazaar start high and settle in the middle.
But you don’t want to say ANYTHING, you want to give away NOTHING. If you have 25 years of car sales, lets play this out.
I wander in to your show room and start looking around
You - “Hi, is there anything in particular that you are looking for?”
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking for a new or a used car?
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking to part exchange?”
Me - stares back at you in silence.......
Now imagine that I do that EVERYDAY for 2 years. How far will our negotiation have got by the end of the 2 years?"You would be very surprised at how many times that actually happens. and it was up to me (remember the dark side) to get things back on track, and I usually (not always) did. But we digress from the real subject.
The big hole in your argument is that neither you nor I know what is going on behind closed doors.
Both sides will start at poles apart. Neither side (if they have any brains) will reveal its full negotiating stance to the press (or us)
Both sides will release statements, quotes, and leaks with mis-information they want the other side (and the public) to hear.
On it will go until there are just a few sticking points and then a last minute deal will be cobbled together so that everyone saves face.
Then that will be that. Brexit done. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.
Now you really are in my domain.
Welcome to the dark side.
The restaurant one is simple nonsense because there is no negotiating position. You read the menu, pick what you want, and bingo you get it.
As for the car dealership example.
Oh how I would have loved a few hundred customers like you.
Tell me everything I want to know (truthfully) in the first five minutes and you bollocks are in my pocket. LOL.
We used to go on training courses on how to extract information from customers. Of course most (not all) would tell you what they are looking for, but wait until you ask "how much do you want to spend"? or "what do you want for your PX"? among other things and then it is a game of cat and mouse.
Believe me. There is a dark side in negotiation and I practised the art for over 25 years.
The Brexit negotiations will be no different. Both sides will hold their cards very close to their chest, dish out plenty of mis-information, and like in any bazaar start high and settle in the middle.
But you don’t want to say ANYTHING, you want to give away NOTHING. If you have 25 years of car sales, lets play this out.
I wander in to your show room and start looking around
You - “Hi, is there anything in particular that you are looking for?”
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking for a new or a used car?
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking to part exchange?”
Me - stares back at you in silence.......
Now imagine that I do that EVERYDAY for 2 years. How far will our negotiation have got by the end of the 2 years?
You would be very surprised at how many times that actually happens. and it was up to me (remember the dark side) to get things back on track, and I usually (not always) did. But we digress from the real subject.
The big hole in your argument is that neither you nor I know what is going on behind closed doors.
Both sides will start at poles apart. Neither side (if they have any brains) will reveal its full negotiating stance to the press (or us)
Both sides will release statements, quotes, and leaks with mis-information they want the other side (and the public) to hear.
On it will go until there are just a few sticking points and then a last minute deal will be cobbled together so that everyone saves face.
Then that will be that. Brexit done."But the government doesn't even know what it is trying to achieve, does it want in or out of the single market? In or out of the customs union etc. We are going to end up with a shit deal if we dont even know what we want to achieve. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.
Now you really are in my domain.
Welcome to the dark side.
The restaurant one is simple nonsense because there is no negotiating position. You read the menu, pick what you want, and bingo you get it.
As for the car dealership example.
Oh how I would have loved a few hundred customers like you.
Tell me everything I want to know (truthfully) in the first five minutes and you bollocks are in my pocket. LOL.
We used to go on training courses on how to extract information from customers. Of course most (not all) would tell you what they are looking for, but wait until you ask "how much do you want to spend"? or "what do you want for your PX"? among other things and then it is a game of cat and mouse.
Believe me. There is a dark side in negotiation and I practised the art for over 25 years.
The Brexit negotiations will be no different. Both sides will hold their cards very close to their chest, dish out plenty of mis-information, and like in any bazaar start high and settle in the middle.
But you don’t want to say ANYTHING, you want to give away NOTHING. If you have 25 years of car sales, lets play this out.
I wander in to your show room and start looking around
You - “Hi, is there anything in particular that you are looking for?”
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking for a new or a used car?
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking to part exchange?”
Me - stares back at you in silence.......
Now imagine that I do that EVERYDAY for 2 years. How far will our negotiation have got by the end of the 2 years?
You would be very surprised at how many times that actually happens. and it was up to me (remember the dark side) to get things back on track, and I usually (not always) did. But we digress from the real subject.
The big hole in your argument is that neither you nor I know what is going on behind closed doors.
Both sides will start at poles apart. Neither side (if they have any brains) will reveal its full negotiating stance to the press (or us)
Both sides will release statements, quotes, and leaks with mis-information they want the other side (and the public) to hear.
On it will go until there are just a few sticking points and then a last minute deal will be cobbled together so that everyone saves face.
Then that will be that. Brexit done.
But the government doesn't even know what it is trying to achieve, does it want in or out of the single market? In or out of the customs union etc. We are going to end up with a shit deal if we dont even know what we want to achieve. "Teresa phoned and told you that did she? See my earlier post. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.
Now you really are in my domain.
Welcome to the dark side.
The restaurant one is simple nonsense because there is no negotiating position. You read the menu, pick what you want, and bingo you get it.
As for the car dealership example.
Oh how I would have loved a few hundred customers like you.
Tell me everything I want to know (truthfully) in the first five minutes and you bollocks are in my pocket. LOL.
We used to go on training courses on how to extract information from customers. Of course most (not all) would tell you what they are looking for, but wait until you ask "how much do you want to spend"? or "what do you want for your PX"? among other things and then it is a game of cat and mouse.
Believe me. There is a dark side in negotiation and I practised the art for over 25 years.
The Brexit negotiations will be no different. Both sides will hold their cards very close to their chest, dish out plenty of mis-information, and like in any bazaar start high and settle in the middle.
But you don’t want to say ANYTHING, you want to give away NOTHING. If you have 25 years of car sales, lets play this out.
I wander in to your show room and start looking around
You - “Hi, is there anything in particular that you are looking for?”
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking for a new or a used car?
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking to part exchange?”
Me - stares back at you in silence.......
Now imagine that I do that EVERYDAY for 2 years. How far will our negotiation have got by the end of the 2 years?
You would be very surprised at how many times that actually happens. and it was up to me (remember the dark side) to get things back on track, and I usually (not always) did. But we digress from the real subject.
The big hole in your argument is that neither you nor I know what is going on behind closed doors.
Both sides will start at poles apart. Neither side (if they have any brains) will reveal its full negotiating stance to the press (or us)
Both sides will release statements, quotes, and leaks with mis-information they want the other side (and the public) to hear.
On it will go until there are just a few sticking points and then a last minute deal will be cobbled together so that everyone saves face.
Then that will be that. Brexit done.
But the government doesn't even know what it is trying to achieve, does it want in or out of the single market? In or out of the customs union etc. We are going to end up with a shit deal if we dont even know what we want to achieve. "If the government have any common sense , they will keep their cards close to their chest . As the EU is dependent on us , we will get a good deal. The population of the Uk do not need to know the details unto it is announced . Just assume that there will be a free trade agreement and total border control. It is difficult to see how we can go wrong and we will no longer have to pay any contribtions or adhere to any EU laws | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought." I'm all for paying for access....looking forward to them paying us for access to our single market  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. I'm all for paying for access....looking forward to them paying us for access to our single market "Our chance to make some additional money from the EU. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Clearly you're clueless about the art of negotiating. Give me an example of how a negotiation goes then. Exactly. I refer you to my previous comment. You guys are Muppets! If you went into a car dealership and the dealer asked you want kind of car you were looking to buy I bet you would refuse to tell him, wouldn't want to show your hand would you?
Or if you went to a restaurant and the waitress asked what you wanted, again you wouldn't tell her as that might impact on your negotiation position.
The art of negotiation according to Brexiters.
Now you really are in my domain.
Welcome to the dark side.
The restaurant one is simple nonsense because there is no negotiating position. You read the menu, pick what you want, and bingo you get it.
As for the car dealership example.
Oh how I would have loved a few hundred customers like you.
Tell me everything I want to know (truthfully) in the first five minutes and you bollocks are in my pocket. LOL.
We used to go on training courses on how to extract information from customers. Of course most (not all) would tell you what they are looking for, but wait until you ask "how much do you want to spend"? or "what do you want for your PX"? among other things and then it is a game of cat and mouse.
Believe me. There is a dark side in negotiation and I practised the art for over 25 years.
The Brexit negotiations will be no different. Both sides will hold their cards very close to their chest, dish out plenty of mis-information, and like in any bazaar start high and settle in the middle.
But you don’t want to say ANYTHING, you want to give away NOTHING. If you have 25 years of car sales, lets play this out.
I wander in to your show room and start looking around
You - “Hi, is there anything in particular that you are looking for?”
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking for a new or a used car?
Me - stares back at you in silence
You - “Are you looking to part exchange?”
Me - stares back at you in silence.......
Now imagine that I do that EVERYDAY for 2 years. How far will our negotiation have got by the end of the 2 years?
You would be very surprised at how many times that actually happens. and it was up to me (remember the dark side) to get things back on track, and I usually (not always) did. But we digress from the real subject.
The big hole in your argument is that neither you nor I know what is going on behind closed doors.
Both sides will start at poles apart. Neither side (if they have any brains) will reveal its full negotiating stance to the press (or us)
Both sides will release statements, quotes, and leaks with mis-information they want the other side (and the public) to hear.
On it will go until there are just a few sticking points and then a last minute deal will be cobbled together so that everyone saves face.
Then that will be that. Brexit done.
But the government doesn't even know what it is trying to achieve, does it want in or out of the single market? In or out of the customs union etc. We are going to end up with a shit deal if we dont even know what we want to achieve. If the government have any common sense , they will keep their cards close to their chest .
As the EU is dependent on us , we will get a good deal.
The population of the Uk do not need to know the details unto it is announced .
Just assume that there will be a free trade agreement and total border control. It is difficult to see how we can go wrong and we will no longer have to pay any contribtions or adhere to any EU laws
"I think Theresa May has been quite clear what she wants to achieve : Control of our borders Control over our money Control over who makes our laws Control over the ability to make trade deals. Now if those who constantly moan that there is no "plan" no objectives, then where have they been? From the above four objectives, it's probably going to mean no membership of the single market or customs union. It's really not difficult to work it out, is it? Aside from the fact that it was a binary choice - remain or leave. There was no options to remain in the single market or the EEA. It was clear it was to remain as we are. Therefore leave means the opposite, leave the status quo, hence the single market and customs union. Is it really that difficult? | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. I'm all for paying for access....looking forward to them paying us for access to our single market "Conservative MP Peter Bone did suggest we charge the EU for access to our market during Prime Ministers questions the other week. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake!" You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered" Right, well you say "security for those already living in the EU", but someone above wanted to deport EU citizens who are in the UK without a job, so I doubt both of those two things will happen. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered Right, well you say "security for those already living in the EU", but someone above wanted to deport EU citizens who are in the UK without a job, so I doubt both of those two things will happen." I would endorse anyone who was living on welfare in any country other than their own being deported as i would anyone convicted of a crime | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered Right, well you say "security for those already living in the EU", but someone above wanted to deport EU citizens who are in the UK without a job, so I doubt both of those two things will happen. I would endorse anyone who was living on welfare in any country other than their own being deported as i would anyone convicted of a crime" Who said they were on benefits? Maybe they are students, maybe they are retired, maybe they are a house wife/ husband. They could have been here for 45 years, married to a Brit and worked their whole working lives here and retired, but because they're not working now Hot Love would have them deported. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered Right, well you say "security for those already living in the EU", but someone above wanted to deport EU citizens who are in the UK without a job, so I doubt both of those two things will happen. I would endorse anyone who was living on welfare in any country other than their own being deported as i would anyone convicted of a crime Who said they were on benefits? Maybe they are students, maybe they are retired, maybe they are a house wife/ husband. They could have been here for 45 years, married to a Brit and worked their whole working lives here and retired, but because they're not working now Hot Love would have them deported." If they had been living here for 45 years and married to a Brit then shouldn't they have applied for and gained British citizenship by now? | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered Right, well you say "security for those already living in the EU", but someone above wanted to deport EU citizens who are in the UK without a job, so I doubt both of those two things will happen." That is disingenuous at the very least. On second thought no, it's a lot worse I know you have a huge reputation on here for twisting other peoples word into what you would like them to mean but quoting that is down right fucking despicable and you know it. As you well know, the context of that quote was in a discussion about the polarised extreme positions at the start of negotiations. NOT THE END RESULT. On the same post I also said "reduce corporation tax to 5%" and slap 10/15/20% import tariffs on all EU goods. No right thinking person would believe that it was meant as a final wish list. The only other possibility is that my negotiating skills are so good that you were stupid enough to believe it. | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered Right, well you say "security for those already living in the EU", but someone above wanted to deport EU citizens who are in the UK without a job, so I doubt both of those two things will happen. That is disingenuous at the very least. On second thought no, it's a lot worse I know you have a huge reputation on here for twisting other peoples word into what you would like them to mean but quoting that is down right fucking despicable and you know it. As you well know, the context of that quote was in a discussion about the polarised extreme positions at the start of negotiations. NOT THE END RESULT. On the same post I also said "reduce corporation tax to 5%" and slap 10/15/20% import tariffs on all EU goods. No right thinking person would believe that it was meant as a final wish list. The only other possibility is that my negotiating skills are so good that you were stupid enough to believe it." With a life times experience in the motor industry you would not have survived unless your negotiating skills were too notch. I am currently involved in quite a complex negotiation. Only a fool will lay all their cards on the table initially unless they wanted to lose. I have full confidence in Teressa May | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered Right, well you say "security for those already living in the EU", but someone above wanted to deport EU citizens who are in the UK without a job, so I doubt both of those two things will happen. That is disingenuous at the very least. On second thought no, it's a lot worse I know you have a huge reputation on here for twisting other peoples word into what you would like them to mean but quoting that is down right fucking despicable and you know it. As you well know, the context of that quote was in a discussion about the polarised extreme positions at the start of negotiations. NOT THE END RESULT. On the same post I also said "reduce corporation tax to 5%" and slap 10/15/20% import tariffs on all EU goods. No right thinking person would believe that it was meant as a final wish list. The only other possibility is that my negotiating skills are so good that you were stupid enough to believe it." Corporation tax is a domestic issue, absolutely nothing to do with the EU, why would you be discussing it with them? We have already decided what our tariffs are going to be, our schedule, as its known, is a direct carbon copy of the EU tariffs. Liam Fox just took the EU’s tariffs, no consultation with UK businesses about what level of tariffs would be good for them. No thoughts around “should we lower them to make us more competitive?” or “should we raise them to protect British industry?”, no, nothing like that, we just copied them. This is why we have the ridiculous situation where the UK will now be placing an import tariff on oranges, even though we don’t grow oranges commercially in this country. As changes to our schedule need to be agreed by unanimous vote at the WTO, its not something that we can tweak on a regular basis. Im not twisting anyones words, just quoting what you have said. Wouldn’t it be ironic if you got deported from the EU and sent back to the UK? | |||
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"What do they need to plan for? And how much planning can they do until they know what the UK want? How they fill the ?* (*insert whichever figure you believe) billion black hole in their budget would be a start. See what the UK wants and then charge us accordingly? Just a thought. See what they will offer and pay accordingly. Just a thought. Ok, they are offering full membership of the single market, contribution to the budget, 4 freedoms, we keep their regulations. Happy now? Do you see how pointless it is for them to have a 'plan' until they know what we want? Of course it's pointless. Exactly the same as it is pointless for Britain to have a plan until negotiations start. It is also pointless (nay dangerous) for Britain to show its hand early as Corbyn seems to want to do. Of course Britain needs a plan! We are the ones leaving for Christ’s sake! You really dont get negotiation do you ? As said by someone else earlier our stated plan has to be access to the market no contributions no freedom of movement and security for those people already living in the eu just as theres has to be the opposite what they and us both have to decide is what if anything can give and to get the best deal that needs to remain scret till we get into a room after article 50 is triggered Right, well you say "security for those already living in the EU", but someone above wanted to deport EU citizens who are in the UK without a job, so I doubt both of those two things will happen. That is disingenuous at the very least. On second thought no, it's a lot worse I know you have a huge reputation on here for twisting other peoples word into what you would like them to mean but quoting that is down right fucking despicable and you know it. As you well know, the context of that quote was in a discussion about the polarised extreme positions at the start of negotiations. NOT THE END RESULT. On the same post I also said "reduce corporation tax to 5%" and slap 10/15/20% import tariffs on all EU goods. No right thinking person would believe that it was meant as a final wish list. The only other possibility is that my negotiating skills are so good that you were stupid enough to believe it. Corporation tax is a domestic issue, absolutely nothing to do with the EU, why would you be discussing it with them? We have already decided what our tariffs are going to be, our schedule, as its known, is a direct carbon copy of the EU tariffs. Liam Fox just took the EU’s tariffs, no consultation with UK businesses about what level of tariffs would be good for them. No thoughts around “should we lower them to make us more competitive?” or “should we raise them to protect British industry?”, no, nothing like that, we just copied them. This is why we have the ridiculous situation where the UK will now be placing an import tariff on oranges, even though we don’t grow oranges commercially in this country. As changes to our schedule need to be agreed by unanimous vote at the WTO, its not something that we can tweak on a regular basis. Im not twisting anyones words, just quoting what you have said. Wouldn’t it be ironic if you got deported from the EU and sent back to the UK?" Statement: I will be driving past Birmingham on my way to London. Response: Ah but you said you are going to Birmingham. This is a classic example of trolling of the highest order. You know what I said (as does everyone else) and you know the context (as does everyone else) but you still want to fit it in to your own little warped agenda (for whatever reason) You are dishonest. END. But make no mistake young man. I will watch your posts and will answer you every time. If you think that these kind of tactics are going to make me go away. Think again. I'm having fun. | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. " The only economic "reality" that I see at the moment are all the pre referendum scare stories unravelling before my eyes. Remainers "reality" tends to always be qualified with words like could, might, possibly, Etc. | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. " True true, | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. "  | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. " This from the poster who thinks John McDonnel and Jeremy Corbyn economics from the 1970's are the best way forward for the country, lol. | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. " Go on then tell us the bad things that have occurred since the vote, | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. " It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Remainer on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Remainer ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted to Remain on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. | |||
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"For Brexiters, is it quite obvious as to what you voted for, and what the government's plan is? No free movement No contribution No laws, rules or regs No single market No customs union Is that just blatantly obvious for all but the most ardent and thick headed remainer? " I guess not. | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. This from the poster who thinks John McDonnel and Jeremy Corbyn economics from the 1970's are the best way forward for the country, lol. " As opposed to politicians who think that winding Britain back to the 1950s is preferable? Both sides have failed. | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Remainer on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Remainer ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted to Remain on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding." Facile. Gets no nearer to an answer | |||
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"It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Brexiter on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Brexiter ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted for Brexit on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. It's literally pointless trying to argue economics with any Remainer on here, as they live in a fantasy land. Not one Fab Remainer ever made a coherent post on the subject before the referendum, and they haven't improved any since the result. To anyone currently wasting their time trying to educate someone who voted to Remain on economic reality, have you considered teaching a dog a card trick instead? You may find it both easier and more rewarding. Facile. Gets no nearer to an answer" That was the point of my response. | |||
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"I don't want doom, I won't argue economics because I'm not an expert. But sone people in this forum thinks the economy will be fine. I agree. They also think the EU will fall and the Euro will decline, I am not sure on this outcome. They also said the Brexit help other countries realise and began this domino affect in Europe. But if the EU and the Euro fall, wouldn't the UK and our economy suffer? If this does happen then wouldn't have Brexit caused this? Making the Remainers right? Just a thought. Before you label me, I didn't vote. Neither a Remainer, Remoaner or a Brexiter. But I did exit Britain and I am becoming Dutch. " Dont think many want the EU to be destroyed economically and there is no reason why it should, but it has to go back to simple trading block without the politics, if it does then that will be great and IMVHO most would vote to rejoin/ form a new union | |||
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"I don't want doom, I won't argue economics because I'm not an expert. But sone people in this forum thinks the economy will be fine. I agree. They also think the EU will fall and the Euro will decline, I am not sure on this outcome. They also said the Brexit help other countries realise and began this domino affect in Europe. But if the EU and the Euro fall, wouldn't the UK and our economy suffer? If this does happen then wouldn't have Brexit caused this? Making the Remainers right? Just a thought. Before you label me, I didn't vote. Neither a Remainer, Remoaner or a Brexiter. But I did exit Britain and I am becoming Dutch. " Its a bit like the thread started by a brexiter saying how good it was that financial institutions are leaving the UK for New York rather than the EU, how is that good for the UK? | |||
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"I don't want doom, I won't argue economics because I'm not an expert. But sone people in this forum thinks the economy will be fine. I agree. They also think the EU will fall and the Euro will decline, I am not sure on this outcome. They also said the Brexit help other countries realise and began this domino affect in Europe. But if the EU and the Euro fall, wouldn't the UK and our economy suffer? If this does happen then wouldn't have Brexit caused this? Making the Remainers right? Just a thought. Before you label me, I didn't vote. Neither a Remainer, Remoaner or a Brexiter. But I did exit Britain and I am becoming Dutch. Its a bit like the thread started by a brexiter saying how good it was that financial institutions are leaving the UK for New York rather than the EU, how is that good for the UK? " I must have missed that one. Link to thread please. | |||
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"m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/582375" He and his mates are going to make america great again... America has elected a serial fraudster to the top job, come midday Jan 20 2017 he is in charge of the federal reserve. Good luck with that America! 
Enjoy your 'tea party'.
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"m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/582375" Which said: "Maybe we haven't seen any gloating from remainers because it went on to say that they wouldn't leave the UK for the EU, they would leave and go to the US.... and that they are even more likely to leave the EU as well because the US has a far better financial infrastructure than anywhere in the EU, second only to London" Just where exactly does that say anything about it "being good"? One again. DISHONESTY from you. | |||
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"m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/582375 Which said: "Maybe we haven't seen any gloating from remainers because it went on to say that they wouldn't leave the UK for the EU, they would leave and go to the US.... and that they are even more likely to leave the EU as well because the US has a far better financial infrastructure than anywhere in the EU, second only to London" Just where exactly does that say anything about it "being good"? One again. DISHONESTY from you. " I think it was fairly clear, but if you can't understand it.... | |||
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"m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/582375 Which said: "Maybe we haven't seen any gloating from remainers because it went on to say that they wouldn't leave the UK for the EU, they would leave and go to the US.... and that they are even more likely to leave the EU as well because the US has a far better financial infrastructure than anywhere in the EU, second only to London" Just where exactly does that say anything about it "being good"? One again. DISHONESTY from you. I think it was fairly clear, but if you can't understand it...." Er nope. Big Fail. You were dishonest. It says NOTHING about being good. If you want to be fucking pedantic so can I. | |||
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"m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/582375 Which said: "Maybe we haven't seen any gloating from remainers because it went on to say that they wouldn't leave the UK for the EU, they would leave and go to the US.... and that they are even more likely to leave the EU as well because the US has a far better financial infrastructure than anywhere in the EU, second only to London" Just where exactly does that say anything about it "being good"? One again. DISHONESTY from you. I think it was fairly clear, but if you can't understand it.... Er nope. Big Fail. You were dishonest. It says NOTHING about being good. If you want to be fucking pedantic so can I." Right, so does the op or any other brexiter say its bad that financial institutions are leaving? | |||
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"m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/582375 Which said: "Maybe we haven't seen any gloating from remainers because it went on to say that they wouldn't leave the UK for the EU, they would leave and go to the US.... and that they are even more likely to leave the EU as well because the US has a far better financial infrastructure than anywhere in the EU, second only to London" Just where exactly does that say anything about it "being good"? One again. DISHONESTY from you. I think it was fairly clear, but if you can't understand it.... Er nope. Big Fail. You were dishonest. It says NOTHING about being good. If you want to be fucking pedantic so can I. Right, so does the op or any other brexiter say its bad that financial institutions are leaving? " I'm the OP on that thread, and I wasn't saying it was good at all, in any way shape or form... What I was getting at was that you, and other remainers, think that the EU is so fucking great that all our industries, particularly the financial industries, will relocate to the EU, which you have said on more than one occasion, when in fact the opinion is that not only the UK, but your darling EU, would potentially lose out to the USA. Did I say this was a good thing? NO! But then again you are too obtuse to realise this, trying to twist people's words to your own warped pathetic rhetoric. You can't even admit that the remain side were lying during the referendum campaign... Like has been said on here before, why don't you just pack your bags and go? | |||
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And we have not even started the exit procedure yet...
Seems to me that red white and blue brexit may be a little more like black and blue. | |||
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"m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/582375 Which said: "Maybe we haven't seen any gloating from remainers because it went on to say that they wouldn't leave the UK for the EU, they would leave and go to the US.... and that they are even more likely to leave the EU as well because the US has a far better financial infrastructure than anywhere in the EU, second only to London" Just where exactly does that say anything about it "being good"? One again. DISHONESTY from you. I think it was fairly clear, but if you can't understand it.... Er nope. Big Fail. You were dishonest. It says NOTHING about being good. If you want to be fucking pedantic so can I. Right, so does the op or any other brexiter say its bad that financial institutions are leaving? I'm the OP on that thread, and I wasn't saying it was good at all, in any way shape or form... What I was getting at was that you, and other remainers, think that the EU is so fucking great that all our industries, particularly the financial industries, will relocate to the EU, which you have said on more than one occasion, when in fact the opinion is that not only the UK, but your darling EU, would potentially lose out to the USA. Did I say this was a good thing? NO! But then again you are too obtuse to realise this, trying to twist people's words to your own warped pathetic rhetoric. You can't even admit that the remain side were lying during the referendum campaign... Like has been said on here before, why don't you just pack your bags and go? " You were told before the referendum that a brexit vote would damage our financial services industry. You said it was scare mongering, and "what do experts know". Can you now see that that is exactly what's happened? | |||
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"m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/582375 Which said: "Maybe we haven't seen any gloating from remainers because it went on to say that they wouldn't leave the UK for the EU, they would leave and go to the US.... and that they are even more likely to leave the EU as well because the US has a far better financial infrastructure than anywhere in the EU, second only to London" Just where exactly does that say anything about it "being good"? One again. DISHONESTY from you. I think it was fairly clear, but if you can't understand it.... Er nope. Big Fail. You were dishonest. It says NOTHING about being good. If you want to be fucking pedantic so can I. Right, so does the op or any other brexiter say its bad that financial institutions are leaving? I'm the OP on that thread, and I wasn't saying it was good at all, in any way shape or form... What I was getting at was that you, and other remainers, think that the EU is so fucking great that all our industries, particularly the financial industries, will relocate to the EU, which you have said on more than one occasion, when in fact the opinion is that not only the UK, but your darling EU, would potentially lose out to the USA. Did I say this was a good thing? NO! But then again you are too obtuse to realise this, trying to twist people's words to your own warped pathetic rhetoric. You can't even admit that the remain side were lying during the referendum campaign... Like has been said on here before, why don't you just pack your bags and go? You were told before the referendum that a brexit vote would damage our financial services industry. You said it was scare mongering, and "what do experts know". Can you now see that that is exactly what's happened? " As far as I am aware all our Financial Service companies are performing well and none of their share prices have collapsed . Lots of new office space is being built in London for the Finanial services industry . A few companies setting up subsidiaries abroad has no overall impact . Why would any rational Financial services company want to move abroad . | |||
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"Well Leavers, it seems as though one of your key champions, Liam Fox may not be on your side after all. He is saying that we may remain inside the customs union. Are you still sure you don't want to know the government's plans? "I guess you didn't listen to the interview did you? Or if you did, understand it | |||
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"Seriously, you brexiters are fucking deluded nuts. All this belief it is the art of negotiating a car deal. You can be the best fucking salesman in the world, you're never going to sell me a two door hatchback when I walk in wanting a four door family saloon. The starting point is that you walk in to the showroom and say you're looking for a four door family saloon. Then the details, make, age, price, running costs, extras come down to the skill of the negotiating parties. To the genius second hand car salesman above who seems to think he understands how this works, if someone walks into your plot and tell you they are here to buy something, do you waste time trying to sell them your stapler or do you ask them what their needs are so you can then see which family car you can flog them? Jesus Christ, you are such a bunch of deluded arrogant fucking thickoes it's embarrassing you shout it out at the top of your voices so regularly. " so what are the plans that you voted for? You know, the EU's plans for the future? | |||
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"Seriously, you brexiters are fucking deluded nuts. All this belief it is the art of negotiating a car deal. You can be the best fucking salesman in the world, you're never going to sell me a two door hatchback when I walk in wanting a four door family saloon. The starting point is that you walk in to the showroom and say you're looking for a four door family saloon. Then the details, make, age, price, running costs, extras come down to the skill of the negotiating parties. To the genius second hand car salesman above who seems to think he understands how this works, if someone walks into your plot and tell you they are here to buy something, do you waste time trying to sell them your stapler or do you ask them what their needs are so you can then see which family car you can flog them? Jesus Christ, you are such a bunch of deluded arrogant fucking thickoes it's embarrassing you shout it out at the top of your voices so regularly. " Maybe with your attitude it would be best if you were not on our negotiating team especially as you appear to frequently use bad language . We just need negotiaters who have absolute faith in the ability of the Uk to deliver and who are fully aware the the EU is dependent on us and will not want to damage us . I like the simple approach . There is no need for the negotiations to be complex . | |||
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"Considering, the UK as a single member hasn't even worked out what it's plan is, I guess it is quite optimistic to think that 27 other members are going to come up with and agree on a plan in that timeframe. -Matt And yet all they've done since Brexit is tell us to hurry up and invoke Article 50..... It's really not our problem, is it. Our problem is to come up with our own plan to leave the EU without trashing our economy, if that is possible. BREXITers say we can leave the EU and be just as successful outside it as we would be in in. At least half the people here in the UK don't believe that and almost no one in the rest of the world believes that. Maybe that's why the EU doesn't have a plan as to how the UK can leave the EU without causing major economic and financial problems to both, because it's simply not possible. But, as the BREXITers seem to think it is, let's see their plan, if they have one yet. It is nearly 6 months now. if you take the politics out of it why is it not possible? It's little to do with politics yet and more to do with simple economics. If you make it harder for yourself to do business with your largest, richest and closest market in some forlorn hope that you'll do more business with smaller, poorer and further away markets, you're just going to make yourself poorer, and probably the people you were trading with before to. Europe and the rest of the world can see this. I can't understand how come so many BREXITers can't. Whatever arguments there maybe for BREXIT there never was, and never will be, a good economic case for it. That's why the EU has no plan, because there is no plan possible that is not either loose, loose or really loose, loose. But if the BREXITers have one now maybe you should start sharing it with us. what do you mean little to do with politics? So who is going to make it harder to trade with one another? Businesses? It is all to do with politics and once the posturing is over it is business that will have the final say. That is simple economics" You're wrong. Business will not go on as before unless the conditions of trade remain the same as before. If Britain is not willing to accept the rules of the club and fair arbitration of those rules by legal force then we will not be trading as we are now with other EU members. We will not have trade without barriers—visible or invisible— or direct and unhindered access to their markets and they will not have direct and unhindered access to ours. That will inevitably lead to a reduction in trade volume between the UK and the EU. | |||
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" From his experience of pre-EU dealings with these things he was not sure we'd have the facilities and people to process everything that would come through now. The amount of red tape is going to increase massively. -Matt" It also works the other way around as if they did not work out a similar system they could not sell the 40 tons of tomatoes to him. | |||
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"Seriously, you brexiters are fucking deluded nuts. All this belief it is the art of negotiating a car deal. You can be the best fucking salesman in the world, you're never going to sell me a two door hatchback when I walk in wanting a four door family saloon. The starting point is that you walk in to the showroom and say you're looking for a four door family saloon. Then the details, make, age, price, running costs, extras come down to the skill of the negotiating parties. To the genius second hand car salesman above who seems to think he understands how this works, if someone walks into your plot and tell you they are here to buy something, do you waste time trying to sell them your stapler or do you ask them what their needs are so you can then see which family car you can flog them? Jesus Christ, you are such a bunch of deluded arrogant fucking thickoes it's embarrassing you shout it out at the top of your voices so regularly. " If you knew much about selling high priced capital items you would know it is highly dependant on personality and from all the dismissive bile that you throw out in most points I think you would struggle to sell coal to eskimos, perhaps if you improved your argument instead of raising your voice and using bad language you may have a chance of people taking notice | |||
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"Indeed. Things will be different. I was talking the other day to a guy who works something with food distribution. I didn't catch exactly what, but he used to work in the ports pre-EU managing the shipping process of containers across to Ireland. He was talking about the customs forms they had to fill in and the checks that had to be done on each container. And how one single mistake or omission and the container impounded and paperwork sent back. Sounded like a lot of hassle. Now he says if he needs a lorry of, say, Italian tomatos he can pick up the phone and a 40-tonne truck of tomatoes will be on his doorstep in 4 days time. No customs hassle. From his experience of pre-EU dealings with these things he was not sure we'd have the facilities and people to process everything that would come through now. The amount of red tape is going to increase massively. -Matt" However the scenario to which he refers was in the days when we were less computerised . The EU are hardly going to want to their food away by making it awkward for other countries to purchase it . We have nothing to worry about . A positive approach achieves results. Those who achieve things in life are not merchants of doom and gloom. | |||
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"Seriously, you brexiters are fucking deluded nuts. All this belief it is the art of negotiating a car deal. You can be the best fucking salesman in the world, you're never going to sell me a two door hatchback when I walk in wanting a four door family saloon. The starting point is that you walk in to the showroom and say you're looking for a four door family saloon. Then the details, make, age, price, running costs, extras come down to the skill of the negotiating parties. To the genius second hand car salesman above who seems to think he understands how this works, if someone walks into your plot and tell you they are here to buy something, do you waste time trying to sell them your stapler or do you ask them what their needs are so you can then see which family car you can flog them? Jesus Christ, you are such a bunch of deluded arrogant fucking thickoes it's embarrassing you shout it out at the top of your voices so regularly. If you knew much about selling high priced capital items you would know it is highly dependant on personality and from all the dismissive bile that you throw out in most points I think you would struggle to sell coal to eskimos, perhaps if you improved your argument instead of raising your voice and using bad language you may have a chance of people taking notice" Spot on but then I think you run a businness and live in the real world . | |||
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" From his experience of pre-EU dealings with these things he was not sure we'd have the facilities and people to process everything that would come through now. The amount of red tape is going to increase massively. -Matt It also works the other way around as if they did not work out a similar system they could not sell the 40 tons of tomatoes to him. " Oh, exactly. It will impact both sides. The question is will the red tape mean that it because easier and cheaper to sell those tomatoes to someone else? If the price has to be increased to cover the additional overhead they will do doubt sell less. Or we will buy less or pass on the overhead to the end consumer. Who will then buy less. -Matt | |||
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"Indeed. Things will be different. I was talking the other day to a guy who works something with food distribution. I didn't catch exactly what, but he used to work in the ports pre-EU managing the shipping process of containers across to Ireland. He was talking about the customs forms they had to fill in and the checks that had to be done on each container. And how one single mistake or omission and the container impounded and paperwork sent back. Sounded like a lot of hassle. Now he says if he needs a lorry of, say, Italian tomatos he can pick up the phone and a 40-tonne truck of tomatoes will be on his doorstep in 4 days time. No customs hassle. From his experience of pre-EU dealings with these things he was not sure we'd have the facilities and people to process everything that would come through now. The amount of red tape is going to increase massively. -Matt However the scenario to which he refers was in the days when we were less computerised . The EU are hardly going to want to their food away by making it awkward for other countries to purchase it . We have nothing to worry about . A positive approach achieves results. Those who achieve things in life are not merchants of doom and gloom. " The EU aren't going to "make it awkward for other countries to purchase it". We are going to make it harder for the EU to sell to a single country, a small part of their market. It is not doom and gloom either. It is reality. I am one of the most happy-go-lucky positive people out there. But at the moment there are just too many unknowns. But I'm sure I'll feel better in a couple of months when the govt lay out their plan. And as for 'don't worry, we have computers now'. I fucking work in IT and have been involved in complex projects before and know how long it takes to get certain things implemented at large organisations. Or just look at the time and expense of something like the abolition of the paper tax disc. No doubt it will go on to save money and hassle in the long run. But it took and long time and cost quite a bit to do it. I would see that implementing a change like this to the customs regime could be a similar level of complexity. -Matt | |||
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" And as for 'don't worry, we have computers now'. I fucking work in IT and have been involved in complex projects before and know how long it takes to get certain things implemented at large organisations. Or just look at the time and expense of something like the abolition of the paper tax disc. No doubt it will go on to save money and hassle in the long run. But it took and long time and cost quite a bit to do it. I would see that implementing a change like this to the customs regime could be a similar level of complexity. -Matt" So what you're saying is - a lot of time, effort and hassle in the short term - but in the long term it will be worth it... | |||
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" And as for 'don't worry, we have computers now'. I fucking work in IT and have been involved in complex projects before and know how long it takes to get certain things implemented at large organisations. Or just look at the time and expense of something like the abolition of the paper tax disc. No doubt it will go on to save money and hassle in the long run. But it took and long time and cost quite a bit to do it. I would see that implementing a change like this to the customs regime could be a similar level of complexity. -Matt So what you're saying is - a lot of time, effort and hassle in the short term - but in the long term it will be worth it... "Potentially. My fear is that and long term value is going to take several decades to arrive if it does. In the meantime we could be using that money and effort to much better effect. I truly believe that a lot of people voted to leave thinking that that £350M cash bonus was real and that it would be coming soon, and that we could use it to help our public services. Let's just hope we can not completely wreck our public services and international relations in the meantime. -Matt | |||
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"I see that the EU's attempt at doing a free trade deal with Japan is back on the agenda in the wake of Brexit which would hopefully allow the EU to sell more agricultural produce there. Now can anyone explain why the EU wouldn't want to have a free trade deal with the UK?" But will there be free movement of people too? The UK can not have one without the other 3 freedoms. | |||
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" And as for 'don't worry, we have computers now'. I fucking work in IT and have been involved in complex projects before and know how long it takes to get certain things implemented at large organisations. Or just look at the time and expense of something like the abolition of the paper tax disc. No doubt it will go on to save money and hassle in the long run. But it took and long time and cost quite a bit to do it. I would see that implementing a change like this to the customs regime could be a similar level of complexity. -Matt So what you're saying is - a lot of time, effort and hassle in the short term - but in the long term it will be worth it...
Potentially. My fear is that and long term value is going to take several decades to arrive if it does. In the meantime we could be using that money and effort to much better effect. I truly believe that a lot of people voted to leave thinking that that £350M cash bonus was real and that it would be coming soon, and that we could use it to help our public services. Let's just hope we can not completely wreck our public services and international relations in the meantime.
-Matt"So what you're saying is that you the financial pain could last for, say, 30 years, but after that we'd be better off all round, but is that putting up with the crap for 30 years for the sake of the country's future benefit is not worth it? With regard to the £350 Million - I haven't met 1 person yet who has thought for 1 moment that that £350 Million was a real figure, other than remainers, who want to keep saying that figuere to prove theat the leave side were lying..... although there was never any 'would', but a 'could', in any case. And also, any benefits we do get from saving our membership contributions would not be seen until after we have officially left. | |||
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" And as for 'don't worry, we have computers now'. I fucking work in IT and have been involved in complex projects before and know how long it takes to get certain things implemented at large organisations. Or just look at the time and expense of something like the abolition of the paper tax disc. No doubt it will go on to save money and hassle in the long run. But it took and long time and cost quite a bit to do it. I would see that implementing a change like this to the customs regime could be a similar level of complexity. -Matt So what you're saying is - a lot of time, effort and hassle in the short term - but in the long term it will be worth it...
Potentially. My fear is that and long term value is going to take several decades to arrive if it does. In the meantime we could be using that money and effort to much better effect. I truly believe that a lot of people voted to leave thinking that that £350M cash bonus was real and that it would be coming soon, and that we could use it to help our public services. Let's just hope we can not completely wreck our public services and international relations in the meantime.
-Matt
So what you're saying is that you the financial pain could last for, say, 30 years, but after that we'd be better off all round, but is that putting up with the crap for 30 years for the sake of the country's future benefit is not worth it?
With regard to the £350 Million - I haven't met 1 person yet who has thought for 1 moment that that £350 Million was a real figure, other than remainers, who want to keep saying that figuere to prove theat the leave side were lying..... although there was never any 'would', but a 'could', in any case. And also, any benefits we do get from saving our membership contributions would not be seen until after we have officially left."Is 30 years of pain worth it? I don't know. Maybe. It is a pretty big gamble. I think if you held a referendum and asked the electorate "Should we leave the EU, incurring 30 years of pain, but will be better off after that" I wonder what the outcome would be? As for would or could... The point is that there really was no possibility of a 'could' either because the figure was a lie. That is like me saying to you "I could save you £20,000 and you *could* buy a car with it." It doesn't matter whether you *should* or *could* by a car with that money. If I *can't* save you 20,000 because there isn't 20,000 to be saved then it is a moot point. You *can't* buy the car because you don't have the option to do so, because I *don't* have the ability to save you £20,000. -Matt | |||
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"Seriously, you brexiters are fucking deluded nuts. All this belief it is the art of negotiating a car deal. You can be the best fucking salesman in the world, you're never going to sell me a two door hatchback when I walk in wanting a four door family saloon. The starting point is that you walk in to the showroom and say you're looking for a four door family saloon. Then the details, make, age, price, running costs, extras come down to the skill of the negotiating parties. To the genius second hand car salesman above who seems to think he understands how this works, if someone walks into your plot and tell you they are here to buy something, do you waste time trying to sell them your stapler or do you ask them what their needs are so you can then see which family car you can flog them? Jesus Christ, you are such a bunch of deluded arrogant fucking thickoes it's embarrassing you shout it out at the top of your voices so regularly. If you knew much about selling high priced capital items you would know it is highly dependant on personality and from all the dismissive bile that you throw out in most points I think you would struggle to sell coal to eskimos, perhaps if you improved your argument instead of raising your voice and using bad language you may have a chance of people taking notice" Actually, a car salesman is a perfect analogy as to where we are now. Everyone knows that cars are sold of emotion and not facts and figures. Look at every car advert on TV you see, they are all about the feeling of speed, or freedom, or the safety of your family, or how sexy you will be with it. That is what has happened here with the referendum. It was all about feeling and emotions. Now we have walked out of the showroom with the ink dry on the HP deal we just signed, we are now looking at the APR of the finance and thinking 'Ouch, that is actually a bit steep'. -Matt | |||
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" And as for 'don't worry, we have computers now'. I fucking work in IT and have been involved in complex projects before and know how long it takes to get certain things implemented at large organisations. Or just look at the time and expense of something like the abolition of the paper tax disc. No doubt it will go on to save money and hassle in the long run. But it took and long time and cost quite a bit to do it. I would see that implementing a change like this to the customs regime could be a similar level of complexity. -Matt So what you're saying is - a lot of time, effort and hassle in the short term - but in the long term it will be worth it...
Potentially. My fear is that and long term value is going to take several decades to arrive if it does. In the meantime we could be using that money and effort to much better effect. I truly believe that a lot of people voted to leave thinking that that £350M cash bonus was real and that it would be coming soon, and that we could use it to help our public services. Let's just hope we can not completely wreck our public services and international relations in the meantime.
-Matt"I yet to meet anyone who made their decision based on NHS expediture. Why would any rational person do that ?. The referendum was about border control and not allowing the EU to dictate to us. At this stage no one had any interest in the NHS. I would say that the leave vote was seriously under stated . The government issued statements encouraging people to vote remain. Why would any rational person allow an open border policy . | |||
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" Actually, a car salesman is a perfect analogy as to where we are now. Everyone knows that cars are sold of emotion and not facts and figures. Look at every car advert on TV you see, they are all about the feeling of speed, or freedom, or the safety of your family, or how sexy you will be with it. That is what has happened here with the referendum. It was all about feeling and emotions. Now we have walked out of the showroom with the ink dry on the HP deal we just signed, we are now looking at the APR of the finance and thinking 'Ouch, that is actually a bit steep'. -Matt" Businesses dont buy on emotion they buy on price,quality, reliability and suitability,private buyers might buy for other reasons but brexit is about business sales not private ones | |||
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"Another thing to consider is that every single port and airport in the country will need to build new, bricks and mortar, facilities and hire more staff to deal with the items that will have customs duties on them if we leave the single market and customs union. That will take years and cost millions if not billions, if the government won't even release their plans of what they are trying to achieve, those businesses cannot start planning for the new infrastructure required. Most will have to buy more land, build new roads, get planning permission, architect's plans, actually building it etc. It's highly unlikely that they will be able to do that in the 2 years of Article 50." why would they need to do that? | |||
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"Another thing to consider is that every single port and airport in the country will need to build new, bricks and mortar, facilities and hire more staff to deal with the items that will have customs duties on them if we leave the single market and customs union. That will take years and cost millions if not billions, if the government won't even release their plans of what they are trying to achieve, those businesses cannot start planning for the new infrastructure required. Most will have to buy more land, build new roads, get planning permission, architect's plans, actually building it etc. It's highly unlikely that they will be able to do that in the 2 years of Article 50. why would they need to do that?" We will need to build new roads to accommodate the extra business. | |||
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"Another thing to consider is that every single port and airport in the country will need to build new, bricks and mortar, facilities and hire more staff to deal with the items that will have customs duties on them if we leave the single market and customs union. That will take years and cost millions if not billions, if the government won't even release their plans of what they are trying to achieve, those businesses cannot start planning for the new infrastructure required. Most will have to buy more land, build new roads, get planning permission, architect's plans, actually building it etc. It's highly unlikely that they will be able to do that in the 2 years of Article 50. why would they need to do that? We will need to build new roads to accommodate the extra business. " | |||
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"I see that the EU's attempt at doing a free trade deal with Japan is back on the agenda in the wake of Brexit which would hopefully allow the EU to sell more agricultural produce there. Now can anyone explain why the EU wouldn't want to have a free trade deal with the UK?" It depends what you mean by a free trafe deal. What I mean by free trade is trade without barriers—visible or invisible— and direct and unhindered access to each others markets. In effect for trading with Paris, Madrid or any place within the EU to be no more of a legal hassle than trading between Liverpool and Manchester is. That is what we currently have being in the EU and what we definitely won't have if we leave the single market and the customs union. | |||
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"I see that the EU's attempt at doing a free trade deal with Japan is back on the agenda in the wake of Brexit which would hopefully allow the EU to sell more agricultural produce there. Now can anyone explain why the EU wouldn't want to have a free trade deal with the UK? It depends what you mean by a free trafe deal. What I mean by free trade is trade without barriers—visible or invisible— and direct and unhindered access to each others markets. In effect for trading with Paris, Madrid or any place within the EU to be no more of a legal hassle than trading between Liverpool and Manchester is. That is what we currently have being in the EU and what we definitely won't have if we leave the single market and the customs union." And what about the rest of the world? | |||
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"Another thing to consider is that every single port and airport in the country will need to build new, bricks and mortar, facilities and hire more staff to deal with the items that will have customs duties on them if we leave the single market and customs union. That will take years and cost millions if not billions, if the government won't even release their plans of what they are trying to achieve, those businesses cannot start planning for the new infrastructure required. Most will have to buy more land, build new roads, get planning permission, architect's plans, actually building it etc. It's highly unlikely that they will be able to do that in the 2 years of Article 50. why would they need to do that?" Why will their be customs checks when we leave the customs union?  | |||
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" Actually, a car salesman is a perfect analogy as to where we are now. Everyone knows that cars are sold of emotion and not facts and figures. Look at every car advert on TV you see, they are all about the feeling of speed, or freedom, or the safety of your family, or how sexy you will be with it. That is what has happened here with the referendum. It was all about feeling and emotions. Now we have walked out of the showroom with the ink dry on the HP deal we just signed, we are now looking at the APR of the finance and thinking 'Ouch, that is actually a bit steep'. -Matt Businesses dont buy on emotion they buy on price,quality, reliability and suitability,private buyers might buy for other reasons but brexit is about business sales not private ones" You missed my point. It wasn't businesses that voted in the referendum, it was individuals. -Matt | |||
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"Another thing to consider is that every single port and airport in the country will need to build new, bricks and mortar, facilities and hire more staff to deal with the items that will have customs duties on them if we leave the single market and customs union. That will take years and cost millions if not billions, if the government won't even release their plans of what they are trying to achieve, those businesses cannot start planning for the new infrastructure required. Most will have to buy more land, build new roads, get planning permission, architect's plans, actually building it etc. It's highly unlikely that they will be able to do that in the 2 years of Article 50. why would they need to do that? Why will their be customs checks when we leave the customs union? "Because magic fucking fairies will do the checks in magic fairy buildings when the good arrive of course. (OK, admittedly a lot of the customs checks can be done at source, but that still puts extra burden on the process and facilities at each end) -Matt | |||
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"Another thing to consider is that every single port and airport in the country will need to build new, bricks and mortar, facilities and hire more staff to deal with the items that will have customs duties on them if we leave the single market and customs union. That will take years and cost millions if not billions, if the government won't even release their plans of what they are trying to achieve, those businesses cannot start planning for the new infrastructure required. Most will have to buy more land, build new roads, get planning permission, architect's plans, actually building it etc. It's highly unlikely that they will be able to do that in the 2 years of Article 50. why would they need to do that? Why will their be customs checks when we leave the customs union? "no, why would we need new buildings? | |||
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"Another thing to consider is that every single port and airport in the country will need to build new, bricks and mortar, facilities and hire more staff to deal with the items that will have customs duties on them if we leave the single market and customs union. That will take years and cost millions if not billions, if the government won't even release their plans of what they are trying to achieve, those businesses cannot start planning for the new infrastructure required. Most will have to buy more land, build new roads, get planning permission, architect's plans, actually building it etc. It's highly unlikely that they will be able to do that in the 2 years of Article 50. why would they need to do that? Why will their be customs checks when we leave the customs union?
Because magic fucking fairies will do the checks in magic fairy buildings when the good arrive of course.
(OK, admittedly a lot of the customs checks can be done at source, but that still puts extra burden on the process and facilities at each end)
-Matt"is that the fairies that go round looking inside every container now? | |||
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"Another thing to consider is that every single port and airport in the country will need to build new, bricks and mortar, facilities and hire more staff to deal with the items that will have customs duties on them if we leave the single market and customs union. That will take years and cost millions if not billions, if the government won't even release their plans of what they are trying to achieve, those businesses cannot start planning for the new infrastructure required. Most will have to buy more land, build new roads, get planning permission, architect's plans, actually building it etc. It's highly unlikely that they will be able to do that in the 2 years of Article 50. why would they need to do that? Why will their be customs checks when we leave the customs union?
Because magic fucking fairies will do the checks in magic fairy buildings when the good arrive of course.
(OK, admittedly a lot of the customs checks can be done at source, but that still puts extra burden on the process and facilities at each end)
-Matt"Checks are done in any event. Certainly, this side. We don't just trust what is put on a docket. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6" And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. | |||
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" Actually, a car salesman is a perfect analogy as to where we are now. Everyone knows that cars are sold of emotion and not facts and figures. Look at every car advert on TV you see, they are all about the feeling of speed, or freedom, or the safety of your family, or how sexy you will be with it. That is what has happened here with the referendum. It was all about feeling and emotions. Now we have walked out of the showroom with the ink dry on the HP deal we just signed, we are now looking at the APR of the finance and thinking 'Ouch, that is actually a bit steep'. -Matt Businesses dont buy on emotion they buy on price,quality, reliability and suitability,private buyers might buy for other reasons but brexit is about business sales not private ones You missed my point. It wasn't businesses that voted in the referendum, it was individuals. -Matt" Yes but it is businesses that will be doing the trade in the new era which is what we were discussing not who voted for what back in June | |||
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"I see that the EU's attempt at doing a free trade deal with Japan is back on the agenda in the wake of Brexit which would hopefully allow the EU to sell more agricultural produce there. Now can anyone explain why the EU wouldn't want to have a free trade deal with the UK? It depends what you mean by a free trafe deal. What I mean by free trade is trade without barriers—visible or invisible— and direct and unhindered access to each others markets. In effect for trading with Paris, Madrid or any place within the EU to be no more of a legal hassle than trading between Liverpool and Manchester is. That is what we currently have being in the EU and what we definitely won't have if we leave the single market and the customs union. And what about the rest of the world?" What about it? Are you suggesting that we have free movement, totally unrestricted trade and a legally binding court of arbitration with the whole world? Seems unlikely as you're not even willing to accept that within Europe, but correct me if I'm wrong. | |||
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"I see that the EU's attempt at doing a free trade deal with Japan is back on the agenda in the wake of Brexit which would hopefully allow the EU to sell more agricultural produce there. Now can anyone explain why the EU wouldn't want to have a free trade deal with the UK? It depends what you mean by a free trafe deal. What I mean by free trade is trade without barriers—visible or invisible— and direct and unhindered access to each others markets. In effect for trading with Paris, Madrid or any place within the EU to be no more of a legal hassle than trading between Liverpool and Manchester is. That is what we currently have being in the EU and what we definitely won't have if we leave the single market and the customs union. And what about the rest of the world? What about it? Are you suggesting that we have free movement, totally unrestricted trade and a legally binding court of arbitration with the whole world? Seems unlikely as you're not even willing to accept that within Europe, but correct me if I'm wrong." I accepted all that the EU involved. I did not have much choice, did I? I was pointing out that being a member of the EU precludes you from doing trade deals elsewhere. Very strange philosophy, that one. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas." There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc." There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6" I have seen no proposals for how VAT will be treated after we leave the paper work will still exist and containers will still sealed with tags the same as they are now | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that." There are no customs checks inside the customs union. There will be once we leave. It's quite simple, but as I always say, over and over and over again, if you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. Provide some evidence to support your point of view that there are currently customs checks. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that. There are no customs checks inside the customs union. There will be once we leave. It's quite simple, but as I always say, over and over and over again, if you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. Provide some evidence to support your point of view that there are currently customs checks. " Erm, that is why we have Customs and Excise. They are there for that purpose. I think you are being somewhat silly in that post. | |||
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" I have seen no proposals for how VAT will be treated after we leave the paper work will still exist and containers will still sealed with tags the same as they are now " From BDO The UK would no longer be obliged to have a VAT system after a Brexit but it’s fairly safe to assume that VAT will not be abolished. However, after a Brexit, sales of goods to and from the UK may no longer be able to use the EU’s acquisition and dispatch system, which allows VAT on EU goods to be accounted for on VAT returns. Instead, these would become imports and exports which would need to clear customs and incur import charges on entering the UK or arrival in an EU country. UK importers/exporters would face a cash flow disadvantage due to the delay between payment of customs charges on entry and entitlement to recover the VAT as input tax on the next VAT return. UK businesses would have to consider using deferment and customs warehousing arrangements to mitigate the impact. UK businesses that are required to register for VAT in an EU member state, eg because they hold stock there or are excluded from the triangulation system as a result of leaving the EU, could face additional administration and costs because many member states require a non-EU VAT registrant to appoint a fiscal representative locally to deal with its tax affairs. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that. There are no customs checks inside the customs union. There will be once we leave. It's quite simple, but as I always say, over and over and over again, if you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. Provide some evidence to support your point of view that there are currently customs checks. Erm, that is why we have Customs and Excise. They are there for that purpose. I think you are being somewhat silly in that post." The customs part of HMRC conduct customs checks on non-EU goods, not EU goods. Again if I'm wrong, prove it! | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that. There are no customs checks inside the customs union. There will be once we leave. It's quite simple, but as I always say, over and over and over again, if you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. Provide some evidence to support your point of view that there are currently customs checks. Erm, that is why we have Customs and Excise. They are there for that purpose. I think you are being somewhat silly in that post. The customs part of HMRC conduct customs checks on non-EU goods, not EU goods. Again if I'm wrong, prove it! " well maybe they should, we might get more tomatoes and fewer jihadis  | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that. There are no customs checks inside the customs union. There will be once we leave. It's quite simple, but as I always say, over and over and over again, if you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. Provide some evidence to support your point of view that there are currently customs checks. Erm, that is why we have Customs and Excise. They are there for that purpose. I think you are being somewhat silly in that post. The customs part of HMRC conduct customs checks on non-EU goods, not EU goods. Again if I'm wrong, prove it! " So you think that they only check goods from outside the EU? That would not be a good policy for counterfeit goods and drugs, would it? I happen to know some employees in the docks. Yes, they do check EU imports. Would you not expect them to? Is it not commonsense? | |||
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" The customs part of HMRC conduct customs checks on non-EU goods, not EU goods. Again if I'm wrong, prove it! " Customs and excise officers check for cigs and booze shipments and that they have had the correct duty paid, vat is due on most imports from non eu countries.Most food is vat free As for the worries about carrying the VAT before it can be claimed back then it will be no different to now | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment." Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. " That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you! | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you! "the problem is that you don't understand what you copy | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy"An excellent point. I often wonder if those posters who are so keen to copy and paste links actually understand their content . In any event why would any rational person bother to look at someones link. | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy An excellent point. I often wonder if those posters who are so keen to copy and paste links actually understand their content .
In any event why would any rational person bother to look at someones link. "I don't know. Maybe some strange inate desire to understand the world about them? To increase their knowledge and understanding of things? To perhaps help them to better understand the positions and views of other people? No? Never mind then. Burn all the printing presses and books whilst you are at it. -Matt | |||
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"I see that the EU's attempt at doing a free trade deal with Japan is back on the agenda in the wake of Brexit which would hopefully allow the EU to sell more agricultural produce there. Now can anyone explain why the EU wouldn't want to have a free trade deal with the UK? It depends what you mean by a free trafe deal. What I mean by free trade is trade without barriers—visible or invisible— and direct and unhindered access to each others markets. In effect for trading with Paris, Madrid or any place within the EU to be no more of a legal hassle than trading between Liverpool and Manchester is. That is what we currently have being in the EU and what we definitely won't have if we leave the single market and the customs union. And what about the rest of the world? What about it? Are you suggesting that we have free movement, totally unrestricted trade and a legally binding court of arbitration with the whole world? Seems unlikely as you're not even willing to accept that within Europe, but correct me if I'm wrong." What's strange about it. You could not have a truly single market if parts of that market have different trading arrangements than the rest. The question is surly not whether we can do separate trade agreements with the rest of the world while in the EU, we can't. The question is surly whether, if we leave the EU we can will trade more over all with the whole world than we do now. In this regard I would contend that, even if we got trade deals with other parts of the world that gave direct, unhindered, barrier free access to their markets and a legal binding court of arbitration, we would still be trading with partners that where smaller, probably poorer and definitely further away than our current EU partners. I would also suspect that those that stand against the EU because it has a legal binding court of arbitration (The European Court of Justice) would be even less willing to accept legally binding rulings from a court sitting in Canberra, Mumbai or Tokyo. So how, in this new world order that BREXITers keep promising us, are we going to trade without barriers - visible or invisible, unhindered and directly, with out a set of rules and an independent legally binding court of arbitration. The reality is we're not and, if we're not, our levels of trade will be lower than they are now because currently we have those arrangements with 27+ countries and when we leave the EU we'll have them with none. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that." There are currently no habitual customs checks on goods comming from the EU and a few other counties. There are occasional checks for illegal goods and intelligence lead checks also but, whiles most of these may happen in the port of arrival, they can actually happen anywhere and to any trade whether from anywhere in the world, including trade wholly within the UK. Thanks to the EU customs union: customs duties at the borders between EU countries are a thing of the past. There is a uniform system of customs duties on imports from outside the EU. Customs officers main duty is to keep legal fair trade flowing The customs union is a single trading area where all goods circulate freely, whether made in the EU or imported from outside. A Finnish mobile phone can be dispatched to Hungary without any duty or customs controls. Duty on goods from outside the EU – say TVs from South Korea – is generally paid when they first enter the EU, but after that there is nothing more to pay and no more checks. If we're not in it then we will have to have customs controls between the UK and those countries in Europe (including all the other 27 members). Beyond that, anything that is imported into Britain will not only face tariffs and possibly customs duties when it enters the UK but again if it is re-exported from the UK into any EU country or other European country that is part of the EU's Customs Union (which is pretty much all of Europe, including Turkey). This can also include parts within manufactured goods such as cars. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that. There are no customs checks inside the customs union. There will be once we leave. It's quite simple, but as I always say, over and over and over again, if you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. Provide some evidence to support your point of view that there are currently customs checks. Erm, that is why we have Customs and Excise. They are there for that purpose. I think you are being somewhat silly in that post." Customs officers are there to ensure trade is fair and legal within the EU's Customs Union. They are also there to ensure that goods are not imported into Britain and the EU without the correct duty and tariff being paid. As no duty or tariff is payable on goods coming from within the EU's Customs Union, this responsibility only applies to goods arriving from outside the EU. Finally Customs and Excise have a responsibility to ensure that any person or business importing goods that are subject to an additional excise duty (cigarettes and alcohol) pay that excise duty unless, if it's a person, the imported goods are wholly for their own personal use. | |||
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"The Brexiters on this forum are relatively well informed on the issues compared to most Brexit voters, so at times I find it quite surprising how uninformed some of you are about certain issues. The additional customs checks required is one of these issues. From the FT: Heathrow chief warns of toll in leaving EU customs union Checks on goods between UK and EU would add ‘massive overhead for very little gain’ However, John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow’s chief executive, said in an interview that a decision to apply would be burdensome and that an alternative to leaving the customs union probably needs to be found. Noting that customs checks and tariffs have to be applied for goods coming into the UK from China, he said: “No one’s going to want to be doing that for EU goods as well. That’s adding massive overhead for very little gain.” He added: “I’ve had no indication that there’s an expectation that we will be putting up customs controls for goods coming in and out of the UK. Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable, which is why I think, pragmatically, [ministers] will find another way round it.” At the moment it is as easy to send a truckload of goods from London to Munich as it is from London to Manchester. But if the UK leaves the customs union, businesses will have to fill in additional documents and clear additional checks — in particular, to prove the origin of the goods — even if the UK strikes a favourable trade deal with the EU. Delivery companies say additional tax hurdles — such as paying VAT and duties — are particularly time-consuming. The FT has learnt that, to resolve the deadlock, ministers have ordered Treasury officials to come up with policies that mitigate the impact of leaving the customs union. Among the measures that Treasury officials are exploring are: widening customs facilities at the UK border, especially at Dover, where space is limited; recruiting hundreds, if not thousands, more customs officers to conduct border checks Andrew Grainger, a leading expert on freight transport and trade facilitation at Nottingham University’s Business School, says: “An extra 5,000 officers?.?.?.?with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year for the government to fund.” Many analysts believe that a decision to leave the customs union could have a major impact on many business sectors. The UK exports around £150bn of goods each year to the EU. “It is easy to imagine an additional cost to UK-EU trade in the order of several billion pounds per year,” said Dr Grainger. . https://www.ft.com/content/45f27908-82f4-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6 And Dr. Grainger was advised to have a lie down and to take a long awaited rest over Christmas. There are customs checks on good from the rest of the world, but not on goods from the EU. Once we leave the customs union, we will need to do those checks on EU goods too. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp. As you can see above, it's not just me telling you, it the FT, Heathrow, the Treasury etc. There are customs checks on goods from all around the world, including the EU. That is how we try to keep drugs, counterfeit goods and unwelcome additions at bay. Seriously, leaving the EU is not going to change that. We won't have to build 50 storey buildings and new motorways. We already do that. There are no customs checks inside the customs union. There will be once we leave. It's quite simple, but as I always say, over and over and over again, if you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. Provide some evidence to support your point of view that there are currently customs checks. Erm, that is why we have Customs and Excise. They are there for that purpose. I think you are being somewhat silly in that post. The customs part of HMRC conduct customs checks on non-EU goods, not EU goods. Again if I'm wrong, prove it! well maybe they should, we might get more tomatoes and fewer jihadis "Immigration control is not done by what used to be called Customs and Excise. Immigration control is dealt with, at the ports, by The Border force. Totally separate and different. Sometimes you say quite good stuff in these discussions, although I seldom agree with it. On other occasions, and this is one of them, you show how little you know about the subject you're talking about. | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy"He seems to have got it 100% right and his interpretation of the rules are exactly what my account and lawyer tell me they are. Maybe you could point out to me and the rest of use exactly where his interpretation is wrong? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy
He seems to have got it 100% right and his interpretation of the rules are exactly what my account and lawyer tell me they are. Maybe you could point out to me and the rest of use exactly where his interpretation is wrong?"its not a question of whether he's right, the point is that none of it really helps his argument and things won't really change much from how they are now. If it is going to be so much trouble trading with people outside the customs union, people like say America, China, India, Japan, why do we bother? Why increase trade with the rest of the world, waste of time eh? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you! "As usuall that is your response when you are proved wrong, you claim it is the opposing view that knows that whatever official body does, its not me that thinks I know more than HMRC its you, do you do VAT returns ? Well I do therefore I am used to dealing with it and filling out returns etc.Virtually all goods are subject to VAT including food some are zero rated which is not the same as being exempt,individual countries have discretion to zero rate a few items and can set vat rates on most goods within eu set limits, as I said eu imports can be zero rated but hmrc are very hot on paper chain and it is much easier with most goods to just pay the vat, items that have serial numbers are much easier to prove that they have left the country of origin. Have a look a vat return form you will see the sections that account for vat on imports | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy
He seems to have got it 100% right and his interpretation of the rules are exactly what my account and lawyer tell me they are. Maybe you could point out to me and the rest of use exactly where his interpretation is wrong?
its not a question of whether he's right, the point is that none of it really helps his argument and things won't really change much from how they are now. If it is going to be so much trouble trading with people outside the customs union, people like say America, China, India, Japan, why do we bother? Why increase trade with the rest of the world, waste of time eh?"If we stay in the customs union, no nothing will change, but if we leave then things will change dramatically. All of the goods now coming from Europe are not customs checked, but once we leave the customs union they will be. We will need new buildings, and new staff to check the millions of tons of cargo that previously wasn't customs checked, that will need to be customs checked. With regards to your last point, most economists would agree that more trade is good, but that is not what the Leave campaign argued for. What the Leave campaign said was, instead of trading inside the single market on our doorstep with 27 other countries that already have a unified regulatory framework, no import/export tariffs, no customs barriers etc. Let's start trading with other countries that do have tariffs, that we don't have a regulatory framework with, that we will have to customs check, that will have extra paperwork etc. All that extra time and cost is going to be a burden for the government, for the businesses, and ultimately for the consumer. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy
He seems to have got it 100% right and his interpretation of the rules are exactly what my account and lawyer tell me they are. Maybe you could point out to me and the rest of use exactly where his interpretation is wrong?
its not a question of whether he's right, the point is that none of it really helps his argument and things won't really change much from how they are now. If it is going to be so much trouble trading with people outside the customs union, people like say America, China, India, Japan, why do we bother? Why increase trade with the rest of the world, waste of time eh?
If we stay in the customs union, no nothing will change, but if we leave then things will change dramatically.
All of the goods now coming from Europe are not customs checked, but once we leave the customs union they will be. We will need new buildings, and new staff to check the millions of tons of cargo that previously wasn't customs checked, that will need to be customs checked.
With regards to your last point, most economists would agree that more trade is good, but that is not what the Leave campaign argued for.
What the Leave campaign said was, instead of trading inside the single market on our doorstep with 27 other countries that already have a unified regulatory framework, no import/export tariffs, no customs barriers etc. Let's start trading with other countries that do have tariffs, that we don't have a regulatory framework with, that we will have to customs check, that will have extra paperwork etc.
All that extra time and cost is going to be a burden for the government, for the businesses, and ultimately for the consumer."all that extra business is going to be a burden? Oh well, we might as well all go home then | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy
He seems to have got it 100% right and his interpretation of the rules are exactly what my account and lawyer tell me they are. Maybe you could point out to me and the rest of use exactly where his interpretation is wrong?
its not a question of whether he's right, the point is that none of it really helps his argument and things won't really change much from how they are now. If it is going to be so much trouble trading with people outside the customs union, people like say America, China, India, Japan, why do we bother? Why increase trade with the rest of the world, waste of time eh?
If we stay in the customs union, no nothing will change, but if we leave then things will change dramatically.
All of the goods now coming from Europe are not customs checked, but once we leave the customs union they will be. We will need new buildings, and new staff to check the millions of tons of cargo that previously wasn't customs checked, that will need to be customs checked.
With regards to your last point, most economists would agree that more trade is good, but that is not what the Leave campaign argued for.
What the Leave campaign said was, instead of trading inside the single market on our doorstep with 27 other countries that already have a unified regulatory framework, no import/export tariffs, no customs barriers etc. Let's start trading with other countries that do have tariffs, that we don't have a regulatory framework with, that we will have to customs check, that will have extra paperwork etc.
All that extra time and cost is going to be a burden for the government, for the businesses, and ultimately for the consumer.
all that extra business is going to be a burden? Oh well, we might as well all go home then"No, not extra business, extra time and cost. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy
He seems to have got it 100% right and his interpretation of the rules are exactly what my account and lawyer tell me they are. Maybe you could point out to me and the rest of use exactly where his interpretation is wrong?
its not a question of whether he's right, the point is that none of it really helps his argument and things won't really change much from how they are now. If it is going to be so much trouble trading with people outside the customs union, people like say America, China, India, Japan, why do we bother? Why increase trade with the rest of the world, waste of time eh?
If we stay in the customs union, no nothing will change, but if we leave then things will change dramatically.
All of the goods now coming from Europe are not customs checked, but once we leave the customs union they will be. We will need new buildings, and new staff to check the millions of tons of cargo that previously wasn't customs checked, that will need to be customs checked.
With regards to your last point, most economists would agree that more trade is good, but that is not what the Leave campaign argued for.
What the Leave campaign said was, instead of trading inside the single market on our doorstep with 27 other countries that already have a unified regulatory framework, no import/export tariffs, no customs barriers etc. Let's start trading with other countries that do have tariffs, that we don't have a regulatory framework with, that we will have to customs check, that will have extra paperwork etc.
All that extra time and cost is going to be a burden for the government, for the businesses, and ultimately for the consumer.
all that extra business is going to be a burden? Oh well, we might as well all go home then
No, not extra business, extra time and cost. "Would it be fair to assume that you do not work in businness ? | |||
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| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy An excellent point. I often wonder if those posters who are so keen to copy and paste links actually understand their content .
In any event why would any rational person bother to look at someones link.
I don't know. Maybe some strange inate desire to understand the world about them? To increase their knowledge and understanding of things? To perhaps help them to better understand the positions and views of other people?
No? Never mind then. Burn all the printing presses and books whilst you are at it.
-Matt"I am still at a total loss to understand why people see a need to post either links or endless sets of figures and assumptions . If I needed further information I would do my own research , not rely on links posted in a swingers forum. In many cases I am satisfied that those posting to links do not understand the figures behind them or the logic as to how they were calculated . I prefer people to state their opinion. Links are completely unnecessary and in most cases the link is probably biased anyway. Some of the posters on these forums who ask for links or evidence appear to be narrow narrowed self righteous left wing bigots . I am not referring to either you or CLCC | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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| Reply privately |
"Perhaps this from the HMRC website will clarify it for you? Four key freedoms of the EU benefit traders in all 28 member states. These are the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons. In practical terms, this means most shipments can be dispatched to other member states of the EU without special customs documentation. There are exceptions, eg sales to international organisations, which are treated as exports, and exports to special EU territories. The main exclusions to this are goods subject to export licensing controls, eg military goods or Class A drugs, and goods classed as excise products, eg alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. The EU member states are listed on the Europa website. Goods in movement within the EU are termed as being dispatched upon leaving the state of origin of the goods, and as arrivals when entering the member state acquiring them. The use of these terms distinguishes single market trade from international trade with third countries - ie countries outside the EU, where the terms import and export apply. VAT within the EU and with other trade agreement countries If you supply goods to another EU country these sales are technically known as dispatches or removals rather than exports. Dispatches within the EU between VAT-registered businesses are not subject to VAT. This also applies to goods imported into the EU that have been released for free circulation following payment of import duties. However, when you dispatch goods to someone in another EU country, who is not registered for VAT in that country, you should normally charge VAT. Read more about VAT: exports, dispatches and supplying goods abroad. Customs declarations are not generally required for goods in free circulation within the EU, but traders must remember to raise VAT invoices showing the VAT Registration Number of their customers and obtain evidence of shipment. Glad you accept that customs check for cigs and drink. As for vat you are wrong, sales to vat registered companies in the eu CAN be zero rated which is NOT the same as not subject to vat, to do this is more complicated than just charging the vat and then paying it to hmrc it requires more paperwork and form filling. That's excise, not customs so no, no Customs checks on "cigs and drink"
It's nice to hear that you think you know more about VAT than HMRC, let us know how that works out for you!
the problem is that you don't understand what you copy An excellent point. I often wonder if those posters who are so keen to copy and paste links actually understand their content .
In any event why would any rational person bother to look at someones link.
I don't know. Maybe some strange inate desire to understand the world about them? To increase their knowledge and understanding of things? To perhaps help them to better understand the positions and views of other people?
No? Never mind then. Burn all the printing presses and books whilst you are at it.
-Matt I am still at a total loss to understand why people see a need to post either links or endless sets of figures and assumptions .
If I needed further information I would do my own research , not rely on links posted in a swingers forum.
In many cases I am satisfied that those posting to links do not understand the figures behind them or the logic as to how they were calculated .
I prefer people to state their opinion. Links are completely unnecessary and in most cases the link is probably biased anyway.
Some of the posters on these forums who ask for links or evidence appear to be narrow narrowed self righteous left wing bigots .
I am not referring to either you or CLCC "In many case the use of quoting figures or links are to refute an incorrect assumption or opinion by showing a provable fact or reasoned argument. People at the moment are too keen to confuse facts and opinions and in the current political climate of lies and misinformation, that just further discredits everything. -Matt | |||
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" I am not referring to either you or CLCC In many case the use of quoting figures or links are to refute an incorrect assumption or opinion by showing a provable fact or reasoned argument. People at the moment are too keen to confuse facts and opinions and in the current political climate of lies and misinformation, that just further discredits everything. -Matt" Nothing wrong IMO in quoting links etc but the trouble is that some cant understand what they are quoting and when questioned insult others by saying that by questioning the posters interpretation they are claiming they know better than the link's authors when in fact they dont understand it themselves, when shown up they just ignore the post and move on, in doing so they lose all respect | |||
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"Would it be fair to assume that you do not work in businness ? " I have my own business actually, so it would be an incorrect assumption. | |||
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" I am not referring to either you or CLCC In many case the use of quoting figures or links are to refute an incorrect assumption or opinion by showing a provable fact or reasoned argument. People at the moment are too keen to confuse facts and opinions and in the current political climate of lies and misinformation, that just further discredits everything. -Matt Nothing wrong IMO in quoting links etc but the trouble is that some cant understand what they are quoting and when questioned insult others by saying that by questioning the posters interpretation they are claiming they know better than the link's authors when in fact they dont understand it themselves, when shown up they just ignore the post and move on, in doing so they lose all respect " What I posted was from the HMRC website. You think HMRC is wrong, thats fine. Like I said let us know how that works out for you. The text was refering to VAT registered business to VAT registered business. You seem to think that VAT is paid in that scenario, HMRC don't seem to. Also you said that countries can zero VAT rate some items, but that isn't the case. The UK does have some zero rated VAT items, but that's because we had them before we joined the EU, and why we can't now zero rate new items, such as tampons because it is against EU regulations. | |||
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" What I posted was from the HMRC website. You think HMRC is wrong, thats fine. Like I said let us know how that works out for you. The text was refering to VAT registered business to VAT registered business. You seem to think that VAT is paid in that scenario, HMRC don't seem to. Also you said that countries can zero VAT rate some items, but that isn't the case. The UK does have some zero rated VAT items, but that's because we had them before we joined the EU, and why we can't now zero rate new items, such as tampons because it is against EU regulations." I dont think HMRC are wrong its your understanding of their web site that is wrong. The Uk, ireland and the netherlands have zero rates for certain goods( in our case yes because we had it before we joined assume the other two did too) they have discretion to keep them at zero or increase but if they do they cant be reduced again to zero, the minimum rate is currently 15% no maximum I believe but countries can have reduced rates subject to certain rules and IIRC agreement from brussels. If companies sell cross border there are two ways of doing it, charge vat which then becomes an input tax to the buyer who then claims it back which is by far the easier way and which I did when I purchased a piece of kit from france years ago (got to admit I cant remember whether I paid the french rate or the uk at the time) The other way is for the seller to sell it at zero vat and then the buyer pays vat(acquisition)at the rate their country charges, either way vat is paid by the buyer, the second method is risky for the seller as they have to prove the goods left their country and the buyer was lawfully allowed to claim vat back. If I sold to a SME firm abroad I know which I would use, Then of course there is the scheme that tourists can use to claim vat back at their point of exit. Yes customs and excise officers do check SOME inbound eu goods just the same as SOME inbound non eu goods, they could never check all from either source, thats part the reason for the "trader seal" scheme where "trusted" companies are allowed to use seals which C&E trust contain the stated goods etc. Much like the self assessment tax system those that are honest get the odd check those that are dishonest get the odd check but can get away with a lot most of the time, the whole system is full of holes. Strangely enough I'm off back to finish my quarterly vat return, boring though it is | |||
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"Well, if you look at the trade figures you'll see that there is some truth in your comment about why bother trading with countries outside the EU because it seems, from the figures that many can't be bothered. In the year 2015 we exported £102 billion to other countries in the EU, which has a population of about 445 million (510 - 64 - we don't count the UK as we don't export to the UK). In the year 2015 we exported £31 billion to the US which has a population of about 321 million. We export over £200 million per person to the EU but less than £100 million per person to the US. The US has a similar legal system to ours and speaks the same language as us (or nearly). It's probably one of the safest places in the world to do business but it has two big draw backs when compared with the EU. We don't have barrier free, unhindered access to their market and we don't have a legally binding court of arbitration to settle trade disagreements. If we trade with the EU on the same bases as we now trade with the US you can expect the extra hassles and barriers involved to lead to our trade with them to drop to similar levels as they are now with the US. That's by about 1/2 over. " Would it be different if we could negotiate trade deals? | |||
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"Well, if you look at the trade figures you'll see that there is some truth in your comment about why bother trading with countries outside the EU because it seems, from the figures that many can't be bothered. In the year 2015 we exported £102 billion to other countries in the EU, which has a population of about 445 million (510 - 64 - we don't count the UK as we don't export to the UK). In the year 2015 we exported £31 billion to the US which has a population of about 321 million. We export over £200 million per person to the EU but less than £100 million per person to the US. The US has a similar legal system to ours and speaks the same language as us (or nearly). It's probably one of the safest places in the world to do business but it has two big draw backs when compared with the EU. We don't have barrier free, unhindered access to their market and we don't have a legally binding court of arbitration to settle trade disagreements. If we trade with the EU on the same bases as we now trade with the US you can expect the extra hassles and barriers involved to lead to our trade with them to drop to similar levels as they are now with the US. That's by about 1/2 over. " Who puts the barriers up to the US? Oh ye, that would be the EU. We'll be able to trade with the US more freely. Does the UK or the EU have a trade deal with the US? No, why not? Australia has a free trade deal with the US which took all of 15 months to complete, well, free except for sales of sugar to the US, woohoo. How do the Aussies cope? | |||
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"Well, if you look at the trade figures you'll see that there is some truth in your comment about why bother trading with countries outside the EU because it seems, from the figures that many can't be bothered. In the year 2015 we exported £102 billion to other countries in the EU, which has a population of about 445 million (510 - 64 - we don't count the UK as we don't export to the UK). In the year 2015 we exported £31 billion to the US which has a population of about 321 million. We export over £200 million per person to the EU but less than £100 million per person to the US. The US has a similar legal system to ours and speaks the same language as us (or nearly). It's probably one of the safest places in the world to do business but it has two big draw backs when compared with the EU. We don't have barrier free, unhindered access to their market and we don't have a legally binding court of arbitration to settle trade disagreements. If we trade with the EU on the same bases as we now trade with the US you can expect the extra hassles and barriers involved to lead to our trade with them to drop to similar levels as they are now with the US. That's by about 1/2 over. " Isnt that part of what the WTO is meant to do,settle trade disputes | |||
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"Well, if you look at the trade figures you'll see that there is some truth in your comment about why bother trading with countries outside the EU because it seems, from the figures that many can't be bothered. In the year 2015 we exported £102 billion to other countries in the EU, which has a population of about 445 million (510 - 64 - we don't count the UK as we don't export to the UK). In the year 2015 we exported £31 billion to the US which has a population of about 321 million. We export over £200 million per person to the EU but less than £100 million per person to the US. The US has a similar legal system to ours and speaks the same language as us (or nearly). It's probably one of the safest places in the world to do business but it has two big draw backs when compared with the EU. We don't have barrier free, unhindered access to their market and we don't have a legally binding court of arbitration to settle trade disagreements. If we trade with the EU on the same bases as we now trade with the US you can expect the extra hassles and barriers involved to lead to our trade with them to drop to similar levels as they are now with the US. That's by about 1/2 over. " I'm not entirely sure, but I think you might have your sums wrong..... 105 Billion divided by 68 Million is not 200 Million...... If you take the EU, excluding the UK, as a whole, the UK is the EU's biggest export market - slightly ahead of the USA, the UK accounts for 17% of the EU's exports. | |||
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"Well, if you look at the trade figures you'll see that there is some truth in your comment about why bother trading with countries outside the EU because it seems, from the figures that many can't be bothered. In the year 2015 we exported £102 billion to other countries in the EU, which has a population of about 445 million (510 - 64 - we don't count the UK as we don't export to the UK). In the year 2015 we exported £31 billion to the US which has a population of about 321 million. We export over £200 million per person to the EU but less than £100 million per person to the US. The US has a similar legal system to ours and speaks the same language as us (or nearly). It's probably one of the safest places in the world to do business but it has two big draw backs when compared with the EU. We don't have barrier free, unhindered access to their market and we don't have a legally binding court of arbitration to settle trade disagreements. If we trade with the EU on the same bases as we now trade with the US you can expect the extra hassles and barriers involved to lead to our trade with them to drop to similar levels as they are now with the US. That's by about 1/2 over. Would it be different if we could negotiate trade deals?" I already addressed this point in an earlier post on this thread. It might even have been in answer to one of your previous posts. Trade deals would help but unless those trade deals offer the same level of unhindered barrier free access that we currently enjoy with the EU it won't compensate for the potential loss. Even if we did get a trade deal with the US that offered unhindered, barrier free access to the whole US market it would still be more difficult to trade with them than the EU because the US is 3,000 miles away whilst Europe is only 30. Finally, unless you're willing to accept a legally binding court of arbitration possibly sitting in New York or Washington DC, we simply won't get the unhindered and barrier free access anyway. You can only have truly free and fair trade if those trading are willing to trade by a legally enforceable set of rules. | |||
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"Well, if you look at the trade figures you'll see that there is some truth in your comment about why bother trading with countries outside the EU because it seems, from the figures that many can't be bothered. In the year 2015 we exported £102 billion to other countries in the EU, which has a population of about 445 million (510 - 64 - we don't count the UK as we don't export to the UK). In the year 2015 we exported £31 billion to the US which has a population of about 321 million. We export over £200 million per person to the EU but less than £100 million per person to the US. The US has a similar legal system to ours and speaks the same language as us (or nearly). It's probably one of the safest places in the world to do business but it has two big draw backs when compared with the EU. We don't have barrier free, unhindered access to their market and we don't have a legally binding court of arbitration to settle trade disagreements. If we trade with the EU on the same bases as we now trade with the US you can expect the extra hassles and barriers involved to lead to our trade with them to drop to similar levels as they are now with the US. That's by about 1/2 over. Would it be different if we could negotiate trade deals?" JandS It's £102 billion covered by 510 million, the population of the EU that gives £200 million per person. But your correct, the figures is wrong. I forgot to subtract the 64 million UK figure from the 510 EU figure. So it should actually be £102 billion divided by 445 million, which gives £230 million. An even bigger gap than I originally stated. | |||
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