FabSwingers.com forum: What does EU failing mean?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Lots of talk about a failed experiment but can someone explains what this means? Averaged over all member states there is little growth but some countries are prospering (Ireland for one, I imagine the UK is/was doing fine) and others are suffering. But would this be the case anyway? Would the bottom ranked countries be struggling more without the Eu? Is the whole greater than the sum of its parts or worse?

Let's keep the discussion fact based please. Not soundbites and he said/she said politics

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Lots of talk about a failed experiment but can someone explains what this means? Averaged over all member states there is little growth but some countries are prospering (Ireland for one, I imagine the UK is/was doing fine) and others are suffering. But would this be the case anyway? Would the bottom ranked countries be struggling more without the Eu? Is the whole greater than the sum of its parts or worse?

Let's keep the discussion fact based please. Not soundbites and he said/she said politics"

What are you looking for the EU to achieve? That would be your starting point.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Business as usual... Let normal life continue

Nothing more

But in what terms is it 'failing'

I'm not pro europe BTW but it seems like the best current bet.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Business as usual... Let normal life continue

Nothing more

But in what terms is it 'failing'

I'm not pro europe BTW but it seems like the best current bet. "

And what political premises is the EU founded on? Do they fit your beliefs?

It is fine to say "business as normal" but what is normal?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The euro is failing.... It's failing Spain and Greece and Portugal and Ireland and even Italy.

It's failing them because it's taken power out of their hands and placed it in Germany's hands and that's great for Germany but we can't all be net exporters, somebody has to import for somebody to export.

It seemed to do well for them when it allowed those country's to borrow at Germany's rates....

So yes the euro was a failed experiment, they tied country's together with monetary policy but not fiscal policy.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'm in Ireland things are great here now, they were shit for a long time though.

Yeah we pay far too much tax to pay off Angela but the economy is flying now in general.

That's why I think there is a disconnect and it doesn't feel like the Eu is failing.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm in Ireland things are great here now, they were shit for a long time though.

Yeah we pay far too much tax to pay off Angela but the economy is flying now in general.

That's why I think there is a disconnect and it doesn't feel like the Eu is failing.

You didn't answer the question.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal? "

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm in Ireland things are great here now, they were shit for a long time though.

Yeah we pay far too much tax to pay off Angela but the economy is flying now in general.

That's why I think there is a disconnect and it doesn't feel like the Eu is failing.

"
.

Yes Ireland has been quite successful at pimping itself out to big firms for zero tax rates.

We're you born in Ireland, I remember the old days where it took 12-14 hours to drive from Belfast to cork, there's no arguing how the EU has benefited Ireland with infrastructure, of course it's still a great big chunk of land with less folks than London in it and that's been problematic growing the population.

Debt is down but pension liabilities are still colossus in an ageing population

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality."

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add."

So it's quite good that we have had lasting peace between the members of the ECSC and subsequent organisations then. It's not just touchy feely nonsense then is it, it has literally saved millions of lives.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined? "

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?"

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today? "

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today? "

gdp will alwaxs grow, what does that mean? Do you think 20-50% unemployment is good? Reposessions good? High suicide rates good? Look at the real issues

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join."

You're not a fan of statistic or data or evidence are you?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

gdp will alwaxs grow, what does that mean? Do you think 20-50% unemployment is good? Reposessions good? High suicide rates good? Look at the real issues"

GDP always grows? Really? It never goes down? Ah fantastic!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

It's a shame that the EU stopped half way. They should have gone for the One Nation state and stopped 27 self interested Ivory Towers arguing their own agendas.

Italy and Greece wouldn't be in difficulty because they wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have bailout loans to pay off either.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

gdp will alwaxs grow, what does that mean? Do you think 20-50% unemployment is good? Reposessions good? High suicide rates good? Look at the real issues

GDP always grows? Really? It never goes down? Ah fantastic!

not over the period you are talking about

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's a shame that the EU stopped half way. They should have gone for the One Nation state and stopped 27 self interested Ivory Towers arguing their own agendas.

Italy and Greece wouldn't be in difficulty because they wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have bailout loans to pay off either. "

somebody else had that plan

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"It's a shame that the EU stopped half way. They should have gone for the One Nation state and stopped 27 self interested Ivory Towers arguing their own agendas.

Italy and Greece wouldn't be in difficulty because they wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have bailout loans to pay off either.

somebody else had that plan

Who? And if you even think of mentioning military dictatorships like Kaiser Bill or Hitler then I will laugh my ass off because the there is zero, nada, zilch in common.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join.

You're not a fan of statistic or data or evidence are you? "

Do you even know what political system you were voting in favour of? What do you think is the philosophical justification of the EU?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's a shame that the EU stopped half way. They should have gone for the One Nation state and stopped 27 self interested Ivory Towers arguing their own agendas.

Italy and Greece wouldn't be in difficulty because they wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have bailout loans to pay off either.

somebody else had that plan

Who? And if you even think of mentioning military dictatorships like Kaiser Bill or Hitler then I will laugh my ass off because the there is zero, nada, zilch in common."

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"It's a shame that the EU stopped half way. They should have gone for the One Nation state and stopped 27 self interested Ivory Towers arguing their own agendas.

Italy and Greece wouldn't be in difficulty because they wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have bailout loans to pay off either.

somebody else had that plan

Who? And if you even think of mentioning military dictatorships like Kaiser Bill or Hitler then I will laugh my ass off because the there is zero, nada, zilch in common.

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU"

Who's that then?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's a shame that the EU stopped half way. They should have gone for the One Nation state and stopped 27 self interested Ivory Towers arguing their own agendas.

Italy and Greece wouldn't be in difficulty because they wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have bailout loans to pay off either.

somebody else had that plan

Who? And if you even think of mentioning military dictatorships like Kaiser Bill or Hitler then I will laugh my ass off because the there is zero, nada, zilch in common.

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?"

you don't know?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?"

Nope

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join."

Italy’s GDP when they joined was less than $100bn, in 2015 it was $1,814bn ($1.8 trillion)

Greece’s GDP when they joined was $50bn, in 2015 it was $195bn

So as you can see, a very significant increase in their prosperity. But then again, there are 26 other member states for you to chose from. If you can show me one where their GDP has decreased, I will be happy to apologise, but you are going to have to show me the data.

(source: Trading Economics [website])

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope"

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join.

Italy’s GDP when they joined was less than $100bn, in 2015 it was $1,814bn ($1.8 trillion)

Greece’s GDP when they joined was $50bn, in 2015 it was $195bn

(source: Trading Economics [website])"

increase in suicide rates in Greece in the 2 years to 2015 - 35%. Source - everywhere

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join.

Italy’s GDP when they joined was less than $100bn, in 2015 it was $1,814bn ($1.8 trillion)

Greece’s GDP when they joined was $50bn, in 2015 it was $195bn

(source: Trading Economics [website])"

And the political philosophy behind the EU? What is the overriding justification?

By the way, Greece and Italy are fooked. If they were fooked before, do you think it was a good idea to invite them?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join.

Italy’s GDP when they joined was less than $100bn, in 2015 it was $1,814bn ($1.8 trillion)

Greece’s GDP when they joined was $50bn, in 2015 it was $195bn

(source: Trading Economics [website])

And the political philosophy behind the EU? What is the overriding justification?

By the way, Greece and Italy are fooked. If they were fooked before, do you think it was a good idea to invite them?"

So one has increased is GDP by a factor of 4, and the other has increased its GDP by a factor of 18, EIGHTEEN! E I G H T E E N! If thats ‘fooked’ what do you consider to be economic prosperity?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join.

Italy’s GDP when they joined was less than $100bn, in 2015 it was $1,814bn ($1.8 trillion)

Greece’s GDP when they joined was $50bn, in 2015 it was $195bn

(source: Trading Economics [website])

And the political philosophy behind the EU? What is the overriding justification?

By the way, Greece and Italy are fooked. If they were fooked before, do you think it was a good idea to invite them?

So one has increased is GDP by a factor of 4, and the other has increased its GDP by a factor of 18, EIGHTEEN! E I G H T E E N! If thats ‘fooked’ what do you consider to be economic prosperity?"

I have asked several times. What is the political philosophy behind the EU that you are so in love with?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us."

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?"

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?"

You are such a proponent of the marvellous EU. You must surely know the underlying politics of the organisation?

Don't be shy.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?

You are such a proponent of the marvellous EU. You must surely know the underlying politics of the organisation?

Don't be shy."

That pooled sovereignty is better than isolated national self interest.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?"

Trying to understand what you mean. It isn't philosophy that defines what we want. It's like talking the talk without walking the walk. What do you believe in?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?

You are such a proponent of the marvellous EU. You must surely know the underlying politics of the organisation?

Don't be shy.

That pooled sovereignty is better than isolated national self interest.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you."

Ah, communism. The overriding philosophy behind the EU. You can name it, you know.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?

You are such a proponent of the marvellous EU. You must surely know the underlying politics of the organisation?

Don't be shy.

That pooled sovereignty is better than isolated national self interest.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

Ah, communism. The overriding philosophy behind the EU. You can name it, you know. "

Hardly! Does the EU seek to control the means of production? No, in fact they have very tough rules on state aid to private companies don't they. You have nationalised industries in member states, but can you think of a single EU owned company?

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?

You are such a proponent of the marvellous EU. You must surely know the underlying politics of the organisation?

Don't be shy.

That pooled sovereignty is better than isolated national self interest.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

Ah, communism. The overriding philosophy behind the EU. You can name it, you know.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you."

So what political system were you voting for? It looks very much like communism to me.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?

You are such a proponent of the marvellous EU. You must surely know the underlying politics of the organisation?

Don't be shy.

That pooled sovereignty is better than isolated national self interest.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

Ah, communism. The overriding philosophy behind the EU. You can name it, you know.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

So what political system were you voting for? It looks very much like communism to me."

And do you have any qualifications or education in politics? If not, perhaps that's why you struggle to correctly identify communism?

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?

You are such a proponent of the marvellous EU. You must surely know the underlying politics of the organisation?

Don't be shy.

That pooled sovereignty is better than isolated national self interest.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

Ah, communism. The overriding philosophy behind the EU. You can name it, you know.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

So what political system were you voting for? It looks very much like communism to me.

And do you have any qualifications or education in politics? If not, perhaps that's why you struggle to correctly identify communism?

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

You are very keen on experts. I just wondered what political system you thought you were voting for?

And you can always ask the Greeks and Italians how they think it has worked out.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Can we get back to the question... Refraining it as:

Would Italy and Greece by fucked anyway and even if they are why does that make being in the EU a failure for somewhere currently prosperous like Ireland.

The other thing the EU has done is harmonisation of standards for a manufactured goods etc, It could have been a shitshow of interregulatory red tape and in Ireland with our "sure it will be grand" culture we wouldn't have made the cut with our dodgy goods I imagine.

A single currency is very convenient too. No fx charges.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Can we get back to the question... Refraining it as:

Would Italy and Greece by fucked anyway and even if they are why does that make being in the EU a failure for somewhere currently prosperous like Ireland.

A single currency is very convenient too. No fx charges. "

They are not fucked! As I have shown above, the EU has been tremendously successful for them.

To me, the most important thing the the EU (and predecessor organisations) has done has been to create a lasting peace between member states, countries that were at war with each other for centuries. That was one of its key initial aims, and it has succeeded.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why don't you go and tell all the youngsters in Greece, Spain, Italy etc etc how great the EU has been for their GDP.

And it is the EU the rec faired much better for most of them, it was the political EU that dreamt up the stability of the euro for them

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Why don't you go and tell all the youngsters in Greece, Spain, Italy etc etc how great the EU has been for their GDP.

And it is the EU the rec faired much better for most of them, it was the political EU that dreamt up the stability of the euro for them"

This is the question I'm asking. Are they fucked as a consequence of Eu membership somehow or just fucked from bad governance in general?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join.

Italy’s GDP when they joined was less than $100bn, in 2015 it was $1,814bn ($1.8 trillion)

Greece’s GDP when they joined was $50bn, in 2015 it was $195bn

(source: Trading Economics [website])

And the political philosophy behind the EU? What is the overriding justification?

By the way, Greece and Italy are fooked. If they were fooked before, do you think it was a good idea to invite them?

So one has increased is GDP by a factor of 4, and the other has increased its GDP by a factor of 18, EIGHTEEN! E I G H T E E N! If thats ‘fooked’ what do you consider to be economic prosperity?"

Has no one ever explained the following very simple short undeniable truth in allthings economic ?

Turnover (gdp) = vanity . Profit (cash) = sanity

You can increase turnover as much as you like but unless you can pay the bills (which the greeks, italian etc cant) you go bust,have you not seen the trillions of debt that has been built up by governments and populations during the time scale you are talking about.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Again I'll ask the question..

How are they worse off from Eu membership and just because they are struggling, why should everyone else be ejecting themselves from the "failed experiment"

It's a great tagline but where's the rhetoric?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Again I'll ask the question..

How are they worse off from Eu membership and just because they are struggling, why should everyone else be ejecting themselves from the "failed experiment"

It's a great tagline but where's the rhetoric? "

The rhetoric is in your own tagline.

And I will ask again. What is the political justification in the EU?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why don't you go and tell all the youngsters in Greece, Spain, Italy etc etc how great the EU has been for their GDP.

And it is the EU the rec faired much better for most of them, it was the political EU that dreamt up the stability of the euro for them

This is the question I'm asking. Are they fucked as a consequence of Eu membership somehow or just fucked from bad governance in general? "
.

Bad governance without a shadow of a doubt, there's nothing stopping the EU putting their hand up and saying we got it wrong... To be fair draghi has at least made an attempt to make the ECB look like a central bank, before then it was just a load of bollocks being told by the Germans that nobody gets nothing because we don't like inflation and we run our country the right way..... That's just dandy, I'm all for it, except not everybody can be an exporter, somebody has to borrow for them to buy your BMWs.

Greece has in effect been bailing out Germany for ten years, all that borrowed Greek money flowed from Greece to Germany via commodity's and goods.

What do the Greeks get, a lesson in prudence and told we don't like inflation, you get austerity which causes more contraction which causes political instability which causes more economic contraction.... And then they say... Ahh well you need to get on your bike(easy jet nowadays) and find cheap labour in the UK and Germany, I mean this whole debarcle has been played out before in 70s Britain only you got on your bike and went to the nearest big city instead of easy jet and the next big country.

It wasn't accidental either!.

Look at the exchange rates for their previous currencies, the lira,dracma,peseta, escudo... They were hundreds to one, that wasn't just flukes of nature, they were never going to be assimilated to northern European currencies

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Or perhaps we should pose the question another way, is it possible for a member state to fuck up in anyway, and it NOT be the fault of the EU?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's only country that broke up they're lying conniving shit bag fleecing bunch of cunts called banks...

You know why....

They own everybody, only a country so small that the PMs door you can knock on and tell him what for had the audacity to do it... And for obvious reasons, the pm didn't want a punch on the nose by his 300,000 citizens

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined? "

That's like saying can you name any trade or profession that earns less now than 40 years ago!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

So; because Federalism was a reaction to the Nationalism prevalent in Italy, Germany and Spain in the 30s and 40s.....

This somehow means that the EU we see today is a Stalinist Plot?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

They are fooked.

If they were fooked before, then they should not have been allowed to join.

Italy’s GDP when they joined was less than $100bn, in 2015 it was $1,814bn ($1.8 trillion)

Greece’s GDP when they joined was $50bn, in 2015 it was $195bn

(source: Trading Economics [website])"

Try telling the Greeks they've significantly propsered under the EU.

Perhaps this might help you to understand....

Greeks have lost 1/3 of their purchasing power and 1/4 of their income, while in 2014, 95% of them said they have difficulties getting by and 15% live in extreme poverty in 2015, a new study shows.

The study, was conducted by diaNEOsis, a non-government research and analysis organization, and its aim was to study extreme poverty in Greece. The results show that in 2015, 15% of Greeks lived in extreme poverty, when in 2011 the number was 8.9% and in 2009 did not exceed 2.2%.

According to the survey, the extreme poverty line in Greece ranges from 182 euros per month for a single person in semi-urban or rural areas living in a privately own home, to 905 euros per month for a couple with two children living in Athens and pay rent or mortgage.

The overall conclusion from the research can be summarized in one number: 1,647,703 Greek citizens, or 15% of the population, fall below the extreme poverty line in 2015.

And this number is rising.

- See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/09/study-fifteen-percent-of-greeks-live-in-extreme-poverty/#sthash.Lxct8PMo.dpuf

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

[Removed by poster at 11/12/16 22:15:29]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

No matter what the personal ideology of its architect, capitalist federalism and the inroduction of standardisation in regulation to make trade simpler is in no way beneficial to anyone but businesses.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Again I'll ask the question..

How are they worse off from Eu membership and just because they are struggling, why should everyone else be ejecting themselves from the "failed experiment"

It's a great tagline but where's the rhetoric?

The rhetoric is in your own tagline.

And I will ask again. What is the political justification in the EU?"

I don't know or care about the justification

I just want to know how it's failing. I'm open minded, some great economists have spoken against small the euro. Give me the facts

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

That is the same globally

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

OK but does a rising tide not rise all boats?

I have a good job in a business....for example

The government gets tax from the business and from me

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Or perhaps we should pose the question another way, is it possible for a member state to fuck up in anyway, and it NOT be the fault of the EU? "

Thank you

That's the question no one has answered. Stats on the extent of poverty don't give an answer.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

OK but does a rising tide not rise all boats?

I have a good job in a business....for example

The government gets tax from the business and from me"

The other name for your "rising tide" is trickle-down economics and no, it doesn't.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

When will politicians and business leaders wake up and listen?

Despite Brexit, and then the Trump victory, they still stick their heads up their own backsides and try and denigrate the electorate. First it was described as racism, bigotry and xenophobia. Now populism.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago

glasgow

"The UK’s GDP was $200bn in 1972, in 2015 it was $2,848bn. Sadly that is only a factor of 14 for us, but Italy has been a member longer than us.

Once more. The political philosophy behind this organisation?

You obviously have an answer in mind, so why do you share it with the class?

You are such a proponent of the marvellous EU. You must surely know the underlying politics of the organisation?

Don't be shy.

That pooled sovereignty is better than isolated national self interest.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

Ah, communism. The overriding philosophy behind the EU. You can name it, you know.

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

So what political system were you voting for? It looks very much like communism to me.

And do you have any qualifications or education in politics? If not, perhaps that's why you struggle to correctly identify communism?

So come on then, perhaps you can explain what financial prosperity looks like if an 18 fold increase looks 'fooked' to you.

Hardly a realist comparison,

When In 1972 you could buy a range rover,for around 2000 pounds,

Today's cost 72000 pounds.

So Try to keep it real.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

When will politicians and business leaders wake up and listen?

What do you want them to hear?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

When will politicians and business leaders wake up and listen?

Why would they? They are doing very nicely out of it thankyouverymuch and would wish to see this state of affairs continue. The only gamble by those pro-brexit politicians/business leader was that by exiting the EU, they could remove EU employee regs, taking even more for themselves.

Neither side gives a fuck about the working man, but naturally, both seek to exploit his vote.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

When will politicians and business leaders wake up and listen?

Neither side gives a fuck about the working man, but naturally, both seek to exploit his vote. "

Yes they don't give a toss about the "ordinary" people.

But at least with a Government that can be held to some kind of account,they have a fighting chance. Within the EU, they have less control.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

When will politicians and business leaders wake up and listen?

What do you want them to hear? "

What the " uneducated,bigoted, racist, xenophobic" masses are trying to tell them..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

gdp will alwaxs grow, what does that mean? Do you think 20-50% unemployment is good? Reposessions good? High suicide rates good? Look at the real issues"
Plus the fact that they take out of the EU more than they put in. We are subsidising them.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

When will politicians and business leaders wake up and listen?

What do you want them to hear?

What the " uneducated,bigoted, racist, xenophobic" masses are trying to tell them.."

No really what is the message?

I think the 99% movement is more of what you are looking for

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If the EU, and economic growth, is so great, why are the the unwashed masses so fed up? Economic growth seems to benefit the few. Not the majority.

There is more to life than economic growth. The majority, who are branded as uneducated by one person in particular on this thread, are fed up.

I find certain people on here incredibly patronising.

Quite.

When will politicians and business leaders wake up and listen?

What do you want them to hear?

What the " uneducated,bigoted, racist, xenophobic" masses are trying to tell them..

No really what is the message?

I think the 99% movement is more of what you are looking for "

They are telling you that they are fed up with mass uncontrolled immigration.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Snooze

All the brexit treads are that way.....

I'm genuinely trying to find out what is wrong with the EU

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Snooze

All the brexit treads are that way.....

I'm genuinely trying to find out what is wrong with the EU"

You aren't listening.

That's why you struggle to find out why the EU fails the majority!

Good luck in your futile search x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It's not the Eu... That's the global economic system... Rising profits for the haves, less for the have nots

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's not the Eu... That's the global economic system... Rising profits for the haves, less for the have nots "

Still not listening are you?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Snooze

All the brexit treads are that way.....

I'm genuinely trying to find out what is wrong with the EU"
.

I just explained why I think the euro wasn't an accident, why the EU don't do anything about the massive amount of depravation caused by it.....

I'm not saying the EU as a "concept" is bad, I'm saying that given the state of politics and how much they've been bought by finance.... It was always going to be a disaster for the European countries.

Somebody above mentioned GDP growth during the last 40 years... What's China's?.

Where's it come from?

Remember I said business is only interested in one thing, profit!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

To what? I get the point you are making but it is irrelevant to the conversation

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While we're at it.

Where did the mass immigration that Europe has just seen come from?.....

I think you'll find that the destabilising of Libya and Egypt played a massive fucking part... Now who was the architect of that?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'm not being flippant here.... I just don't get it

How is the EU as an entity responsible for deprivation? Would the poorer countries be less poor without it? Is there an aspect to the setup that is causing those countries to fail?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"To what? I get the point you are making but it is irrelevant to the conversation "
if you don't think anything I'm saying is relevant were either not going to get anywhere in our dialogue or you've been in outer space for fifteen years

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

That was for the poster above and the 'you are still not listening' comment... Sorry

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

gdp will alwaxs grow, what does that mean? Do you think 20-50% unemployment is good? Reposessions good? High suicide rates good? Look at the real issues Plus the fact that they take out of the EU more than they put in. We are subsidising them. "

So if Greece gets more out of the EU than it puts in, how can the EU be blamed for its problems? Do you not think that maybe the Greek government deserves some blame for the situation they are in?

Does the UK have high or low unemployment rates?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"That was for the poster above and the 'you are still not listening' comment... Sorry "
.

Honestly I'm a progressive leftie, but I'm done with this,... Oh all left wing goverments are good bollocks, the EU(that's the political part of the European union) have been fucking awful for the general masses, they've sold out to the banks and the hedge funds and the blue chip corporations... There a fucking disgrace.

Now don't confuse my message with I'm somehow thing the right wing of Teresa may or Donald trump are going to be better... There a pair of cunts, there in it to line their pockets.

There's another thread about globalisation where I said they don't have a clue what to do, this could be replicated for any major issue, nobody in government has a fucking clue what to do, there fucking hopeless.

I'll tell you how I know this.

25 years ago I started paying alot of attention to experts in climate science, now bearing in mind this was 1990 there was all sorts of dia consequences if we didn't head them.... Did we?.

No did we fuck, we still today think we can bargain our way out of our fuck ups...._lcc will say the EU is our best hope of sorting out climate change..... Hello that fucking window closed ten years ago, there's fuck all anybody can do about that now, just like there's fuck all your rhetoric will do about brexit or the EU.... Your 15 years to late, you made a fausian bargain and now your going to have to live with it!.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The ECB printing E80bn a month in QE...ongoing.

Continuing mass unemployment and poverty in Greece and Spain.

Open borders letting in millions of illegals threatening law and order and stability.

And all created by unelected, overpaid, PC pontificating Brussels fat-cats...funded by taxpayers' money!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

Unelected? How do you define 'unelected' You mean like Farage was unelected or like May was unelected?

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

Get ready for an Italian banking crisis!

Having spent time in Brussels I can tell you that it is awash with money, EU money. I have spoken to EU workers in bars, and they get huge allowances. Money is no object to them.

And guess what? No audited EU accounts again. If I'm paying in via my taxes, am I not entitled to ask what they spend it all on?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

So if Greece gets more out of the EU than it puts in, how can the EU be blamed for its problems? Do you not think that maybe the Greek government deserves some blame for the situation they are in?

You've avoided responding to the our post above, but in case you missed it.

Try telling the Greeks they've (your quote) "significantly propsered" under the EU.

Perhaps this might help you to understand....

Greeks have lost 1/3 of their purchasing power and 1/4 of their income, while in 2014, 95% of them said they have difficulties getting by and 15% live in extreme poverty in 2015, a new study shows.

The overall conclusion from the research can be summarized in one number: 1,647,703 Greek citizens, or 15% of the population, fall below the extreme poverty line in 2015.

And this number is rising.

Or maybe you think that, in an organisation like the EU, who you say have brought "equality and prosperity for all", the levels of poverty in Greece are acceptable?

- See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/09/study-fifteen-percent-of-greeks-live-in-extreme-poverty/#sthash.Lxct8PMo.dpuf

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Still no one has explained the mechanism of failure.

Vitriol about immigration and Eu expenses... Fine there are problems but how is it an economic failure? Are Greece and Italy worse by being members?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"That was for the poster above and the 'you are still not listening' comment... Sorry .

Now don't confuse my message with I'm somehow thing the right wing of Teresa may or Donald trump are going to be better... There a pair of cunts, there in it to line their pockets.

I'll tell you how I know this.

25 years ago I started paying alot of attention to experts in climate science, now bearing in mind this was 1990 there was all sorts of dia consequences if we didn't head them.... Did we?.

I agree about climate change. OK now can you please explain the selling out bit because I don't know enough about it or understand it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

So if Greece gets more out of the EU than it puts in, how can the EU be blamed for its problems? Do you not think that maybe the Greek government deserves some blame for the situation they are in?

You've avoided responding to the our post above, but in case you missed it.

Try telling the Greeks they've (your quote) "significantly propsered" under the EU.

Perhaps this might help you to understand....

Greeks have lost 1/3 of their purchasing power and 1/4 of their income, while in 2014, 95% of them said they have difficulties getting by and 15% live in extreme poverty in 2015, a new study shows.

The overall conclusion from the research can be summarized in one number: 1,647,703 Greek citizens, or 15% of the population, fall below the extreme poverty line in 2015.

And this number is rising.

Or maybe you think that, in an organisation like the EU, who you say have brought "equality and prosperity for all", the levels of poverty in Greece are acceptable?

- See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/09/study-fifteen-percent-of-greeks-live-in-extreme-poverty/#sthash.Lxct8PMo.dpuf"

You've quoted me and completely ignored what I've said! Pat says they get more money from the EU than they get out, so they are being subsidised and supported by the EU. Therefore if they weren't in the EU they would be worse off.

Why do you blame Greece's problems on the EU and not on Greece? If it was the EU's fault then you would see the same thing happening in the UK and Germany and Estonia, but you don't, because Greece, like all other members, has their own government which makes the majority of decisions.

What is the EU mandated retirement age?

What is the EU mandated minimum pension?

What is the EU mandated housing benefit amount?

What is the EU mandated minimum wage?

What is the EU mandated health budget?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Unelected? How do you define 'unelected' You mean like Farage was unelected or like May was unelected?

-Matt"

You clearly don't know the difference between the UK Parliament, the EU Parliament and the EU Commission!?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Still no one has explained the mechanism of failure.

Vitriol about immigration and Eu expenses... Fine there are problems but how is it an economic failure? Are Greece and Italy worse by being members? "

by being members of the Eurozone, which in turn is an EU project, yes

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"Still no one has explained the mechanism of failure.

Vitriol about immigration and Eu expenses... Fine there are problems but how is it an economic failure? Are Greece and Italy worse by being members?

by being members of the Eurozone, which in turn is an EU project, yes"

There is no vitriol about expenses and immigration. These are hard facts, and until even these basic of facts are addressed, then the EU is a busted flush.

Get ready for 2017, a year of political and social upheaval all over Europe.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Unelected? How do you define 'unelected' You mean like Farage was unelected or like May was unelected?

-Matt

You clearly don't know the difference between the UK Parliament, the EU Parliament and the EU Commission!? "

Yes I do. I know that the MEPs are elected by their country. E.g. we elected Farage et el. I know that we elect a number of MPs here in this country to represent us in parliament due to the UK being a Parliamentary Sovereignty, but we don't elect our PM. Our current one of which just attempted to appeal against a ruling that Parliament is sovereign. And I know that EU commissioners are a bit like our ministers in that they are unelected as well.

That capture it in a nutshell?

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

"I know the main one is peace.

What is the EU mandated retirement age?

What is the EU mandated minimum pension?

What is the EU mandated housing benefit amount?

What is the EU mandated minimum wage?

What is the EU mandated health budget?"

Of course lots of the problems of greece have to be laid at the door of the greeks, for instance fraud and claiming money from the CAP and other development schemes that never happened that was then spent on flash german cars, they have a different mind set to work etc than the northern part of europe, they dont seem to wantto build for the future but spend it on the here and now, the problem is the money has run out (remember the turnover = vanity, profit = sanity point) and they cant trade their way out of it, in the days of the dracma the markets would have devalued it and that would have led to increased numbers of tourists etc, they have no control now and are being told by the germans how to run things, german industry benefitted hugely from the creation of the euro but there is now a price to pay and the arguments about who is going to be doing the paying has just started

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist"

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"Or perhaps we should pose the question another way, is it possible for a member state to fuck up in anyway, and it NOT be the fault of the EU?

Thank you

That's the question no one has answered. Stats on the extent of poverty don't give an answer. "

The Greeks have shown that they have stuffed up their economy, as members of the EU, yet the EU haven't been involved in the 'stuffing up' process. The EU didn't get involved until bailouts were asked for.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"While we're at it.

Where did the mass immigration that Europe has just seen come from?.....

I think you'll find that the destabilising of Libya and Egypt played a massive fucking part... Now who was the architect of that?"

The USA, Britain and France. No EU involvement there.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

Quite rightly. We the richer areas, have dumped billions in large scale infrastructure projects to the less well off areas. Airports, motorways, ports, bridges etc.

Oh no wait. I forgot I was responding to you Pat. So Ivory Tower politics it is then.

Grrr!!! The English for the English! Build a big wall round England! Everybody else can burn in hell!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"Get ready for an Italian banking crisis!

Having spent time in Brussels I can tell you that it is awash with money, EU money. I have spoken to EU workers in bars, and they get huge allowances. Money is no object to them.

And guess what? No audited EU accounts again. If I'm paying in via my taxes, am I not entitled to ask what they spend it all on?"

Agreed. There does need to be better oversight of this.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why don't you go and tell all the youngsters in Greece, Spain, Italy etc etc how great the EU has been for their GDP.

And it is the EU the rec faired much better for most of them, it was the political EU that dreamt up the stability of the euro for them"

They're pretty happy. I have Italian family and Greek colleagues. But which class would you refer to? They're well off. So it sounds like the EU is better for capitalism/conservative than socialist/communism in Italy and Greece.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

That's like saying can you name any trade or profession that earns less now than 40 years ago!"

Sat navs (TomTom), optical cameras (Kodak), video rentals (Blockbusters). Many trades die but a new one is born.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"Still no one has explained the mechanism of failure.

Vitriol about immigration and Eu expenses... Fine there are problems but how is it an economic failure? Are Greece and Italy worse by being members?

by being members of the Eurozone, which in turn is an EU project, yes"

They have benefitted from EU grants to build infrastructure. Their economic troubles are their own mess and have not been caused by EU institutions.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

Grrr!!! The English for the English! Build a big wall round England! Everybody else can burn in hell! "

I saw a great comment regarding Trump's Mexico wall from a brit which was something like "A wall? We've got a fucking moat and that doesn't work!" lol

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

Grrr!!! The English for the English! Build a big wall round England! Everybody else can burn in hell!

I saw a great comment regarding Trump's Mexico wall from a brit which was something like "A wall? We've got a fucking moat and that doesn't work!" lol

-Matt"

Ha ha ha

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Still no one has explained the mechanism of failure.

Vitriol about immigration and Eu expenses... Fine there are problems but how is it an economic failure? Are Greece and Italy worse by being members?

by being members of the Eurozone, which in turn is an EU project, yes

They have benefitted from EU grants to build infrastructure. Their economic troubles are their own mess and have not been caused by EU institutions."

Really? So how do they get out of the mess now?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"Still no one has explained the mechanism of failure.

Vitriol about immigration and Eu expenses... Fine there are problems but how is it an economic failure? Are Greece and Italy worse by being members?

by being members of the Eurozone, which in turn is an EU project, yes

They have benefitted from EU grants to build infrastructure. Their economic troubles are their own mess and have not been caused by EU institutions.

Really? So how do they get out of the mess now?"

Same way anybody in debt gets out of it, cut costs and work more. And it isn't quick. It takes years.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

I find it amazing to read the shite that pours out of so many mouths here. It is astounding to see the depth of ignorance and ill-informed and ill-educated opinion touted as fact. Unfortunately this seems to be the growing case across the continent of Europe.

Firstly lets deal with what the 'experiment' that is failing was designed to stop:

Since the discovery of the silk route and the emergence of the Venetian merchant princes in the 14th century that started the transfer of power (wealth) from those who controlled land (aristocracy) to those who controlled trade (merchants) Europe has been continually at war, fighting for access to and control of raw materials and markets. Up until the 19th century this was for the most part tolerable because the means of slaughter were relatively primitive and the majority of the population could be kept isolated from the reality of war for profit. This started to change in the 19th century. By the beginning of the 20th century war had become fully industrialised and with the advent of flight it became possible to extend war fighting to industrial base that supplied the armies the means to fight.

THIS RESULTED IN 85 MILLION KNOWN DEAD IN EUROPE BETWEEN 1900 and 1945!

After the slaughter of WW2 European leaders got together and agreed that there was only one way to stop the continual slaughter and that was to remove competition and replace it with cooperation. Because of history they agreed that it could not be done overnight but would have to be a gradual integration leading to full economic and political union.

THAT WORKED FOR 70 YEARS!

However now that virtually all those who had to fight the last European war are dead and our political leaders have no direct experience of war they are happy to lead us back to a time where they were willing to 'pay the blood price' (in our blood) to sate their greed.

Seems to me that there are many here who need to stop soaking up the propaganda pumped out by the mainstream media and start reading some economic and military history instead.

As for the Euro failing, it is not. It is continually gaining in value over time against the $ and £. The myth that it is failing is spread by banks, money changers (and the politicians they own) who have seen its growth hit their profits.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

"Unelected? How do you define 'unelected' You mean like Farage was unelected or like May was unelected?

-Matt"
unelected in as the presidents (four by the way) and thier cronies dont be fooled into thinking the eu parliment has any say its all done by unelected commities who have jobs for life and do very well out of thier lttle club.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

Winston Churchill 1946 - "We must build a kind of United States of Europe".

Even he as a staunch Imperialist could see that it was the way forward.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I find it amazing to read the shite that pours out of so many mouths here. It is astounding to see the depth of ignorance and ill-informed and ill-educated opinion touted as fact. Unfortunately this seems to be the growing case across the continent of Europe.

Firstly lets deal with what the 'experiment' that is failing was designed to stop:

THIS RESULTED IN 85 MILLION KNOWN DEAD IN EUROPE BETWEEN 1900 and 1945!

THAT WORKED FOR 70 YEARS!

Seems to me that there are many here who need to stop soaking up the propaganda pumped out by the mainstream media and start reading some economic and military history instead.

its not a case of the Euro failing its a case of the Euro failing the countries, which will lead to an end to it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Unelected? How do you define 'unelected' You mean like Farage was unelected or like May was unelected?

-Matt unelected in as the presidents (four by the way) and thier cronies dont be fooled into thinking the eu parliment has any say its all done by unelected commities who have jobs for life and do very well out of thier lttle club."

OK, so closer to May then.

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe."

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Anyone else notice the contradictions in this thread? Leavers get accused of wanting to be isolated and build walls yet the support for the struggling Southern European countries is coming from the leavers while the remainers accuse them of being a bunch of lazy bastards who should work harder and only have themselves to blame. Odd that eh. Or is it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Same way anybody in debt gets out of it, cut costs and work more. And it isn't quick. It takes years. "

Not when your in debt because you have agreed that your employer does not need to pay you!

There is only one way out of the worlds financial crisis and that is to force all businesses to pay all taxes on all profits in the countries they trade in, and to strip any company found to be cooking the books of all its assets and bar it from doing business in the country it defrauds.

The fact is austerity in a recession only deepens the recession. This has been proven time and time again. In fact after 6 years of austerity here our latest chancellor has just announced that he is going to start an infrastructure program to stimulate growth. Funny how that has been a dangerous hard left communist plan for 6 years but is now prudent economic planning when adopted by the tories.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"I know the main one is peace.

I guess prosperity for all is the goal?

Oh, lovely. Touchy and feely. Do you have some nice thoughts for the Greeks and Italians?

It would be great to have prosperity for all. I am afraid that doesn't work in reality.

I suppose you miss the good old days of WWI & WWII?

Erm, no. Do you?

And the political foundations of the EU? If you have anything more interesting to add.

The EU has created prosperity for all it's members. Can you name one member who's GDP is now smaller than when they joined?

Greece? Italy?

Is it not a bit of a communist charade?

It is all a crap thing is it not?

Greece and Italy, what was their GDP when they joined and what is it today?

So if Greece gets more out of the EU than it puts in, how can the EU be blamed for its problems? Do you not think that maybe the Greek government deserves some blame for the situation they are in?

You've avoided responding to the our post above, but in case you missed it.

Try telling the Greeks they've (your quote) "significantly propsered" under the EU.

Perhaps this might help you to understand....

Greeks have lost 1/3 of their purchasing power and 1/4 of their income, while in 2014, 95% of them said they have difficulties getting by and 15% live in extreme poverty in 2015, a new study shows.

The overall conclusion from the research can be summarized in one number: 1,647,703 Greek citizens, or 15% of the population, fall below the extreme poverty line in 2015.

And this number is rising.

Or maybe you think that, in an organisation like the EU, who you say have brought "equality and prosperity for all", the levels of poverty in Greece are acceptable?

- See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/09/study-fifteen-percent-of-greeks-live-in-extreme-poverty/#sthash.Lxct8PMo.dpuf

What is the EU mandated retirement age?

What is the EU mandated minimum pension?

What is the EU mandated housing benefit amount?

What is the EU mandated minimum wage?

What is the EU mandated health budget?"

The problem is simple - Greece were encouraged and allowed to join the euro, with the key players in allowing Greece to join (Germany, for example), knowing that their economy was shit and unsustainable in the first place..... but they still approved Greece joining the Euro, for their expansionist project.

Now, if that isn't an EU problem of its own making, and ergo an EU failing, then what is.

You have this attitude that the EU can do no wrong, that it is a paradise, that all those who criticise it are idiots, thick, racist, xenophobic, misogynist etc....

Let me tell you something else - over the last few weeks I have travelled across the EU fairly extensively.

What people are talking about, and concerned about, with Brexit, is not Brexit itself, but how much more they are going to have to contribute to the EU budget when the UK eventually leaves - because they know that the UK is the second largest contributor to the EU.

And that really is the crux of the problem with the EU - the UK leaving will fuck up their gravy train.

As for protecting workers rights - we have much better rights, terms and conditions in the UK than across the EU - for example, in Spain it is not uncommon to receive a letter in your pay packet advising you that 'as from next week we are reducing your hours and your hourly rate'.

Now, on to QE - which you bang on about all the time that QE destroys an economy and that, due to Brexit, the BoE had to put in £70 Billion of QE.

But yet you offer no comment about the 80 Billion A MONTH that the EU is providing in QE, which by the end of next year will have seen almost 2 TRILLION in QE put in.

The EU should have stuck to what it was there for - trade - instead of trying to become a nation state in its own right.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"Anyone else notice the contradictions in this thread? Leavers get accused of wanting to be isolated and build walls yet the support for the struggling Southern European countries is coming from the leavers while the remainers accuse them of being a bunch of lazy bastards who should work harder and only have themselves to blame. Odd that eh. Or is it"

Wow, that is some top-class spin.

I've just read back up the thread, and not quite sure how you could come to that conclusion at all.

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"Winston Churchill 1946 - "We must build a kind of United States of Europe".

Even he as a staunch Imperialist could see that it was the way forward. "

In 1946, Churchill saw Britain helping a new Europe but not being part of it.

He said: “Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine.”

As Prime Minister in 1953, he was explicit that Britain should not be part of the arrangement. He told the Commons: “Where do we stand? We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition ‘with’ but not ‘of’ – we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire.”

He also told the Cabinet that “we are not merged with United Europe, we are a separate closely – and specially related – ally and friend, but we will not be subordinated into a federal system”.

The message was repeated in a number of his speeches in the 1950s and 1960s.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"While we're at it.

Where did the mass immigration that Europe has just seen come from?.....

I think you'll find that the destabilising of Libya and Egypt played a massive fucking part... Now who was the architect of that?

The USA, Britain and France. No EU involvement there. "
.

Actually I was thinking Hillary Clinton!.

It's there in the emails that those pesky Russians hacked, releasing information about our governments, how dare they.... Yes under the left wing liberal guise of its not the contents of the emails that's the problem it's the people that hacked them and released them that got trump elected.... The masters of spin just keep spinning

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Winston Churchill 1946 - "We must build a kind of United States of Europe".

Even he as a staunch Imperialist could see that it was the way forward. "
.

Well that's a classic imperialistic view point

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Winston Churchill 1946 - "We must build a kind of United States of Europe".

Even he as a staunch Imperialist could see that it was the way forward. "

Obviously he must be a fervent communist in the eyes of some in this forum.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

When the euro came in, prices shot up overnight. This led to inflation and so the cycle continues.

We did well to keep out of it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious"

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"That was for the poster above and the 'you are still not listening' comment... Sorry .

Now don't confuse my message with I'm somehow thing the right wing of Teresa may or Donald trump are going to be better... There a pair of cunts, there in it to line their pockets.

I'll tell you how I know this.

25 years ago I started paying alot of attention to experts in climate science, now bearing in mind this was 1990 there was all sorts of dia consequences if we didn't head them.... Did we?.

I agree about climate change. OK now can you please explain the selling out bit because I don't know enough about it or understand it. "
.

Brussels has like 30,000 people working in lobbying, there's more lobbyists in Brussels than Washington DC.

The entire setup of it has been paid for and designed by business for business, pay your vat here your corporation tax there, get rebates here put your firm there..

We'll bring the people to you, you want one currency, yeah no probs, we'll do anything you ask(pay for bribe, cajole).... You want to pay no tax apple, sure come on in pretty please...I mean they could at least have had the honesty to tell us there cutting tax's for businesses, in the 50s and 60s business paid about 35% of the tax take today it's under 18%... Don't worry we'll just put your tax's up or cut your services, you'll all have jobs and that's the main thing.... Isn't it?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

No, neither. Next?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

No, neither. Next?"

It's a trick question, sir. There aren't any...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

No, neither. Next?

It's a trick question, sir. There aren't any..."

not a trick, but it's all about taking away individual countries rights so that power (and therefore money) can be controlled by one central government, much like the Soviet Union

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

No, neither. Next?"

Should we look at some of the central tenants of communism and then do a compare and contrast?

Communism:

* State ownership of industry

* Ownership, control and censorship of the media

* Repressive police and security services

* Limits on the movement of people either internally or externally

* Collectivisation of property and wealth.

* Abolition of inheritance rights

* Centralised government control of education

* Centralisation of banking into a single state owned monopoly making the government the only source of credit

* Heavy income based taxation

So does the EU own industries? Nope, however there are still some state own industries owned by the individual member states.

Ownership and censorship of the media? No the EU does not own any media organisations or have any form of censorship in the member states.

Police and security services, again no, there is europol, however it has no powers of arrest and is simply an organisation to facilitate the police forces of the member states working together. Have you ever seen a europol police car drive down the street? No security service either, so you dont have to worry about a knock on the door in the middle of the night. Do you think a forum like this would have existed and allowed you to attack the regime in Stalinist Russia or in North Korea?

The EU promotes free movement as one of its 4 fundamental freedoms. No controls from the EU about you leaving to countries outside either.

Collectivisation of property and wealth, I have never heard of any forced confiscation of wealth or property in the name of the EU, have you?

Abolition of inheritance rights, I've never heard the EU talk about this, purely down to the member states.

Control of education, nothing to do with the EU.

Centralisation of banking, nope, we have a large number of banks in each and every one of the member states, people and businesses have multiple potential sources of credit.

Heavy and income based taxation, citizens pay their taxes to the individual member states who are free to set their own levels of taxation based upon the manifestos and free elections of individual governments.

So in what way exactly is the EU like communism?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

No, neither. Next?

It's a trick question, sir. There aren't any...

not a trick, but it's all about taking away individual countries rights so that power (and therefore money) can be controlled by one central government, much like the Soviet Union"
.....agree and all without our consent.l

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

No, neither. Next?

It's a trick question, sir. There aren't any...

Like our taxes?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago

Babbacombe Torquay

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

No, neither. Next?

It's a trick question, sir. There aren't any...

not a trick, but it's all about taking away individual countries rights so that power (and therefore money) can be controlled by one central government, much like the Soviet Union"

Jesus.....that's one hell of an imagination you have there,how the feck do you sleep at night with all that worry?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

Let's keep the discussion fact based please. Not soundbites and he said/she said politics"
It means what it says,but it is all a matter of interpretation of the facts.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I was talking about a Stalinist, the architect of the EU

Who's that then?

you don't know?

Nope

Altiero Spinelli, a lifelong communist

Yes a life long communist with a big idea for European peace and unity. But in no way was he ever a Stalinist who wanted to impose a brutal totalitarian regime over Europe.

Oh come on! It's definitely a Stalinist plot...

whats the difference in essence between the constition of the Soviet Union and the EU?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin pointing out the obvious errors in that question

I'm sure you could try if its obvious

Both say that all property is concentrated in the hands of the people?

No, neither. Next?

It's a trick question, sir. There aren't any...

not a trick, but it's all about taking away individual countries rights so that power (and therefore money) can be controlled by one central government, much like the Soviet Union

Jesus.....that's one hell of an imagination you have there,how the feck do you sleep at night with all that worry?"

I aint worried, we're leaving

But what am I imagining?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

its not a case of the Euro failing its a case of the Euro failing the countries, which will lead to an end to it"

Can you please please please provide a cogent argument that at least describes the mechanisms for past behaviour.

If you can do that then at least you have some legitimacy in predicting the future

It seems to be that "Eu failing" is the backbone of the brexit argument but no one can explain how or why

There might be something on the qe and control of interest rates and I'd love someone to describe how it is failing member states

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its not a case of the Euro failing its a case of the Euro failing the countries, which will lead to an end to it

Can you please please please provide a cogent argument that at least describes the mechanisms for past behaviour.

If you can do that then at least you have some legitimacy in predicting the future

It seems to be that "Eu failing" is the backbone of the brexit argument but no one can explain how or why

There might be something on the qe and control of interest rates and I'd love someone to describe how it is failing member states "

Whether the EU is failing depends entirely on what you think it's purpose is and whether you perceive it to be fulfilling that purpose.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"That was for the poster above and the 'you are still not listening' comment... Sorry .

Now don't confuse my message with I'm somehow thing the right wing of Teresa may or Donald trump are going to be better... There a pair of cunts, there in it to line their pockets.

I'll tell you how I know this.

25 years ago I started paying alot of attention to experts in climate science, now bearing in mind this was 1990 there was all sorts of dia consequences if we didn't head them.... Did we?.

I agree about climate change. OK now can you please explain the selling out bit because I don't know enough about it or understand it. .

Brussels has like 30,000 people working in lobbying, there's more lobbyists in Brussels than Washington DC.

The entire setup of it has been paid for and designed by business for business, pay your vat here your corporation tax there, get rebates here put your firm there..

That's all well and good except that it was the Eu who have uncovered the preferential taxation the irish government have engaged it and demanded payment. Now they are spending my tax money to try not be the beneficiary of 13 billion!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its not a case of the Euro failing its a case of the Euro failing the countries, which will lead to an end to it

Can you please please please provide a cogent argument that at least describes the mechanisms for past behaviour.

If you can do that then at least you have some legitimacy in predicting the future

It seems to be that "Eu failing" is the backbone of the brexit argument but no one can explain how or why

There might be something on the qe and control of interest rates and I'd love someone to describe how it is failing member states "

what is the point? You just ignore anything anybody says

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I won't ignore you if you can answer the question

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I won't ignore you if you can answer the question "

Several people have already answered but I will just add that if it wasn't for the success of the UK over recent years you would be crying that the EU had failed you and you would not be asking the question

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

No one has described the mechanism of failure.

What failure? Where? How is it defined?

We've heard stories about uniquely Greek problems, communism and all sorts of fear of the future stories

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

You don't have an answer and can't stomach the fact that you bought the tagline of a failed experiment without reading the small print

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

"You don't have an answer and can't stomach the fact that you bought the tagline of a failed experiment without reading the small print "

Dont you consider the fact that the rise of anti eu parties through out europe is a sign that millions of europeans think it has failed THEM ?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I consider it a sign that propaganda works but also that rich/poor gap is making more people disenfranchised

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"You don't have an answer and can't stomach the fact that you bought the tagline of a failed experiment without reading the small print

Dont you consider the fact that the rise of anti eu parties through out europe is a sign that millions of europeans think it has failed THEM ?"

Frankly, no. I think it is similar to what is happening in the UK, which is fearmongering and xenophobia being whipped up to further political and commercial interests of a few at the expense of the many.

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

"You don't have an answer and can't stomach the fact that you bought the tagline of a failed experiment without reading the small print

Dont you consider the fact that the rise of anti eu parties through out europe is a sign that millions of europeans think it has failed THEM ?

-Matt"

So you agree that a few are benefitting from the current situation and the many are losing, is that not a sign that things are not right and thus failing ?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"You don't have an answer and can't stomach the fact that you bought the tagline of a failed experiment without reading the small print

Dont you consider the fact that the rise of anti eu parties through out europe is a sign that millions of europeans think it has failed THEM ?

-Matt

So you agree that a few are benefitting from the current situation and the many are losing, is that not a sign that things are not right and thus failing ? "

Yes, it is a sign that things are not right. But it has no more to do with the EU than the failure of my fridge to have a cold beer in it right now.

-Matt

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The E U is Failing because it won't exsist for much longer !

5 years tops !

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The E U is Failing because it won't exsist for much longer !

5 years tops !

Using a present tense "is" for a future prediction. Do you have big data and analytics on this?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If the EU continues in the way the Commission seem to want they will create a structure which brings insecurity, unemployment, national resentment and ethnic conflict" -

Margeret Thatcher, years ago.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

""If the EU continues in the way the Commission seem to want they will create a structure which brings insecurity, unemployment, national resentment and ethnic conflict" -

Margeret Thatcher, years ago.

And we all know what a crazy old bat she was!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

""If the EU continues in the way the Commission seem to want they will create a structure which brings insecurity, unemployment, national resentment and ethnic conflict" -

Margeret Thatcher, years ago.

And we all know what a crazy old bat she was!

Her own party even stabbed her in the back. The conservatives like to eat their own young.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

""If the EU continues in the way the Commission seem to want they will create a structure which brings insecurity, unemployment, national resentment and ethnic conflict" -

Margeret Thatcher, years ago.

And we all know what a crazy old bat she was!

Wasn't she an "expert?"

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

""If the EU continues in the way the Commission seem to want they will create a structure which brings insecurity, unemployment, national resentment and ethnic conflict" -

Margeret Thatcher, years ago.

And we all know what a crazy old bat she was!

Wasn't she an "expert?""

In what?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"Winston Churchill 1946 - "We must build a kind of United States of Europe".

Even he as a staunch Imperialist could see that it was the way forward.

Obviously he must be a fervent communist in the eyes of some in this forum."

And for your benefit as well....

Churchill said: “Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine.”

The message was repeated in a number of his speeches in the 1950s and 1960s.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

""If the EU continues in the way the Commission seem to want they will create a structure which brings insecurity, unemployment, national resentment and ethnic conflict" -

Margeret Thatcher, years ago.

And we all know what a crazy old bat she was!

was she wrong?

pity they didn"t listen eh then you might not be so upset now

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Churchill said: “Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine.”

The message was repeated in a number of his speeches in the 1950s and 1960s."

Yep, you are absolutely correct in your quotes of Churchill. Unfortunately for us he was wrong. By the end of the 60's our empire that he was so proud to boast of was gone, the British Commonwealth was morphing into the Commonwealth of Nations that has no loyalty to Britain and the British economy was on it's knees. So we went cap in hand to Europe, they took us in and helped us stave off bankruptcy. So how have we repaid them?

We have done everything we can to hinder the evolution and development of the EU.

Eventually we will wake up to exactly what a massive mistake we have made. By then we may or may not have done so much damage to the EU that it will also be beyond repair. But there are two things that are certain.

Europe will not forgive us for the damage we have done, and by the time the majority face up to the consequences of their action the NHS and the social State will have been replaced by an economy more like that of India or China, those beacons of social light where poverty and ill-health have been banished.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

""If the EU continues in the way the Commission seem to want they will create a structure which brings insecurity, unemployment, national resentment and ethnic conflict" -

Margeret Thatcher, years ago.

"
An interesting quote. It is great to see that she was able to predict the future and got it right on this occasion .

It is a shame that the EU did not stick to being just a trading partnership.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"An interesting quote. It is great to see that she was able to predict the future and got it right on this occasion .

It is a shame that the EU did not stick to being just a trading partnership. "

Yep...

It is not as if she took over a country with nearly full employment and closed down the majority of our manufacturing industries turning many parts of the country into wastelands while deregulating the city and sewing the seeds for 35 years of chronic poverty for many so that a few could become super rich.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"An interesting quote. It is great to see that she was able to predict the future and got it right on this occasion .

It is a shame that the EU did not stick to being just a trading partnership.

Yep...

Sick Man Of Europe ring any bells?

And why should I as a taxpayer, want to keep subsidising failing industries with no future?

The 1970s were a wasted decade. It took someone brave to change that.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"An interesting quote. It is great to see that she was able to predict the future and got it right on this occasion .

It is a shame that the EU did not stick to being just a trading partnership.

Yep...

Every one is better off rhan they were 35 years ago.

We should be very gratefull to Margaret Thatcher for the opportunities which she bought to everyone and for breaking the power of the unions

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"An interesting quote. It is great to see that she was able to predict the future and got it right on this occasion .

It is a shame that the EU did not stick to being just a trading partnership.

Yep...

Sick Man Of Europe ring any bells?

And why should I as a taxpayer, want to keep subsidising failing industries with no future?

The 1970s were a wasted decade. It took someone brave to change that."
Well said.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Margret Thatcher was deluded at best and insane at worst.

She oversaw the two biggest problems we face today, property speculation and banking regulation... Both of which have fucked this country beyond repair without a major bit of ass hurt!.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

For those of you that would rather read about EU failures from an expert, this is the conclusion at the end of a paper titled "A Critical Analysis of the EU's Response to the Arab Spring and its Implications for EU Security".

It talks about the EU's self-interested approach, its failure to not only address, but actually turn a blind eye to blind eye to, human rights in the Middle East and North Africa, its failure to promote peace, its tacit encouragement of instability in the region, its failure to achieve its key foreign policy of assuring peace and security at its borders, thereby risking instability in the EU.

It was written by Vanda Amaro Dias.

"The EU’s self-interested approach to

the region is embedded in contradictions and lacks

strategic vision. Before the Arab Spring it overlooked the

values that lie at the core of the European project in order

to benefit from security arrangements with the autocratic regimes in the Southern Mediterranean. As a

consequence, it contributed to reproduce the status quo in the region by turning a blind-eye on blunt violations of political freedoms and human rights of the peoples of the

MENA. In this regard, the EU not only failed to promote security in the region, but it ended up enabling further instability. The lack of a paradigmatic shift in EU-Southern

Mediterranean relations has, nonetheless, broader implications for the EU’s neighbouring policies and

security. By reproducing asymmetrical relations of power favourable to the EU and projecting the MENA as its "threatening other", Brussels fails to acknowledge the dynamic and changeable nature of social relationships.

Together with the lacking accommodations of the EU’s

partners’ interests and perceptions, this diminished its leverage and transformative potential in the region. As a result, the EU fails to achieve the central rationale of its

foreign policies – assure peace and security at its borders

–, and risks becoming itself a source of tension, insecurity

and instability in the region and in the EU as a whole.

Ultimately, if the EU wants to be successful in

influencing the events in its southern vicinity and assuring

regional security, it will have to present more than “old

wine in new wineskins” and engage in a strategic definition

of its neighbouring policies, while recognizing that relations are a two-way process in which interests and

perceptions of its partners have to be taken into consideration."

Vanda Amaro Dias is a Ph.D. candidate in International Politics and Conflict Resolution at the School of Economics,

University of Coimbra, and a Marie Curie Fellow at the Institute of International Law and International Relations, University of Graz. She received her M.A. in Political Science

and International Relations from the Nova University of Lisbon

and her B.A from the same institution. Her research interests include EU Foreign and Neighbouring Policies, European Security, Russia and the former Soviet Space. She has

participated as a speaker in several international conferences and her research has been published in peer-review journals such as European Security and Perspectives on European

Society and Politics.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

And this from Martin Feldstein, an eminent economist and expert in his field, in his paper entitled 'The Failure of the Euro'.

In 2011 he was included in The 50 Most Influential ranking (published by Bloomberg Markets since 2011), which features 50 individuals with "the ability to move markets or shape ideas and policies."

"The euro should now be recognized as an experiment that failed. This failure, which has come after just over a dozen years since the euro was introduced, in 1999, was not an accident or the result of bureaucratic mismanagement but rather the inevitable consequence of imposing a single currency on a very heterogeneous group of countries. The adverse economic consequences of the euro include the sovereign debt crises in several European countries, the fragile condition of major European banks, high levels of unemployment across the eurozone, and the large trade

deficits that now plague most eurozone countries."

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And this from Martin Feldstein, an eminent economist and expert in his field, in his paper entitled 'The Failure of the Euro'.

In 2011 he was included in The 50 Most Influential ranking (published by Bloomberg Markets since 2011), which features 50 individuals with "the ability to move markets or shape ideas and policies."

deficits that now plague most eurozone countries."

You are talking to deaf ears.

The Remainers only want to hear their own experts. They never want to defend their own vision as the EU as a panacea. It would be too challenging for them. They think that all Brexiters were Farage supporters.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Firstly lets deal with what the 'experiment' that is failing was designed to stop:

THIS RESULTED IN 85 MILLION KNOWN DEAD IN EUROPE BETWEEN 1900 and 1945!

THAT WORKED FOR 70 YEARS!

Seems to me that there are many here who need to stop soaking up the propaganda pumped out by the mainstream media and start reading some economic and military history instead.

On the first read through you sort of make sense. However when you analyse it a bit deeper the flaws are all there to see.

Firstly, everything you say about the history is pretty much correct but with one glaring omission.

All the wars fought in Europe since the beginning of time were all fought with either a dictatorship or autocratic monarchy on at least one (quite often on both) side.

Never in European (or even world) history has one democracy gone to war with another.

After 1945 nearly all the major western European countries were democracy's. The only exceptions (Spain Greece and Portugal being the most notable) were far too weak to cause much trouble outside their own borders.

The only elephant in the room was the Soviet Union and its Warsaw pact satellites which, funnily enough, were all dictatorships and were the only threat of war that Europe faced during the whole of the 70 years you go on about.

Make no mistake. Keeping the Soviet Union in check was bugger all to do with the EU. It didn't even exist as a political union when the Berlin wall went up for example. In those days it was no more than a customs union.

What kept the peace in Europe for the whole of the cold war was NATO. and yes, I know it will stick in your throat, those pesky Americans.

For keeping the peace in Europe the EU was (at best) superfluous.

Your last paragraph was quite comical. Please tell me in which parallel universe has the Euro "continually gained value against the dollar"?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

Firstly lets deal with what the 'experiment' that is failing was designed to stop:

THIS RESULTED IN 85 MILLION KNOWN DEAD IN EUROPE BETWEEN 1900 and 1945!

THAT WORKED FOR 70 YEARS!

Seems to me that there are many here who need to stop soaking up the propaganda pumped out by the mainstream media and start reading some economic and military history instead.

On the first read through you sort of make sense. However when you analyse it a bit deeper the flaws are all there to see.

Firstly, everything you say about the history is pretty much correct but with one glaring omission.

All the wars fought in Europe since the beginning of time were all fought with either a dictatorship or autocratic monarchy on at least one (quite often on both) side.

Never in European (or even world) history has one democracy gone to war with another.

What kept the peace in Europe for the whole of the cold war was NATO. and yes, I know it will stick in your throat, those pesky Americans.

For keeping the peace in Europe the EU was (at best) superfluous.

Your last paragraph was quite comical. Please tell me in which parallel universe has the Euro "continually gained value against the dollar"?"

Just looked at historical exchange rates

Euro:$

1992 1 euro = $1.31 Avg

2016 1 euro = $1.09 Avg

Yep, that's continually gaining value alright!!! lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

""If the EU continues in the way the Commission seem to want they will create a structure which brings insecurity, unemployment, national resentment and ethnic conflict" -

Margeret Thatcher, years ago.

An interesting quote. It is great to see that she was able to predict the future and got it right on this occasion .

It is a shame that the EU did not stick to being just a trading partnership. "

Check out George Soros circa 2012