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"It very much is already repeating itself in many ways, isolationism in 1920's America lead to the Great Depression, swiftly followed by a blame culture that resulted in European and American Jews being cited for causing poverty and unemployment amongst the masses.....then onto a World War. Today we are seeing a US President elect already looking very isolationist and shifting the blame onto other nations and immigrants. Here we have UKIP and other European political parties doing much the same, playing the blame game. Dangerous times..... " exciting times | |||
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"It very much is already repeating itself in many ways, isolationism in 1920's America lead to the Great Depression, swiftly followed by a blame culture that resulted in European and American Jews being cited for causing poverty and unemployment amongst the masses.....then onto a World War. Today we are seeing a US President elect already looking very isolationist and shifting the blame onto other nations and immigrants. Here we have UKIP and other European political parties doing much the same, playing the blame game. Dangerous times..... exciting times " Only if your mind is warped | |||
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"Is it possible for history to repeat itself of pre ww2, but with a modern touch? As the world politics is shifting to the right with countrys such as, usa, sweden, italy, germany, france, austria and belgium wants a change. The biggest political gain is for germanys new party, "AFG" that was founded in april 2013, they won 4.7% of the votes in the 2013 federal election, narrowly missing the 5% electoral threshold to sit in the bundestag, in 2014 the party won 7.1% of the votes and 7 out of 96 german seats in the european election." Erm. Pre WW2? Nope. Different countries. Different technologies. So, no, history will not repeat itself. | |||
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" isolationism in 1920's America lead to the Great Depression. " . Err you missed out the financial crises, the mid wests soil blowing away, and the repeated mistake of austerity during a recession!!. . . Financial crises... Tick Environmental disaster.... Tick Austerity during recession... Tick . . Oh and I forgot the main one.... All the US companies invested massively in one very businesses friendly chap who'd bust all his countries unions??..... Standard oil, IBM, Dupont, ford, G&E... Just remember that when they talk about what business "wants" on QT. . . There's no morality in profit | |||
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"It very much is already repeating itself in many ways, isolationism in 1920's America lead to the Great Depression, swiftly followed by a blame culture that resulted in European and American Jews being cited for causing poverty and unemployment amongst the masses.....then onto a World War. Today we are seeing a US President elect already looking very isolationist and shifting the blame onto other nations and immigrants. Here we have UKIP and other European political parties doing much the same, playing the blame game. Dangerous times..... " I dont think you will find many historians agree with you on that. Perhaps the whose are paid to run the worlds large economies could well look to history and learn the lessons that when sections of society get left behind they get righly pissed off,instead of forcing an unwanted politcial union on people while some get fat from excess earnings and others are chucked on the scrap heap those leaders should be addressing the problems instead of getting their snouts in deeper in the trough. | |||
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"It very much is already repeating itself in many ways, isolationism in 1920's America lead to the Great Depression, swiftly followed by a blame culture that resulted in European and American Jews being cited for causing poverty and unemployment amongst the masses.....then onto a World War. Today we are seeing a US President elect already looking very isolationist and shifting the blame onto other nations and immigrants. Here we have UKIP and other European political parties doing much the same, playing the blame game. Dangerous times..... I dont think you will find many historians agree with you on that. Perhaps the whose are paid to run the worlds large economies could well look to history and learn the lessons that when sections of society get left behind they get righly pissed off,instead of forcing an unwanted politcial union on people while some get fat from excess earnings and others are chucked on the scrap heap those leaders should be addressing the problems instead of getting their snouts in deeper in the trough. " .. Well said. | |||
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"It is indeed very worrying times, and leaving the EU will make the world less stable, and war more likely. The people who are wishing for the EU to collapse are really stoking the fires of conflict. I think if that happened Russia would probably invade Estonia, maybe even further, which would see a massive exodus of people from eastern europe that would dwarf the Syrian migrant crisis." Just of course the minor detail that estonia is a member of nato and it is nato that has kept the peace by its mutual defence agreement | |||
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"History allways repeats itself,if all polititions on this planet studied History of say the last 200 years they would be better at there jobs,there would be no wars,no financial crisis's etc. History is the most important subject you can learn after the 3 r's in my view. " And no EU. It's been tried before. The whole EU plan was drawn up by a Stalinist Communist | |||
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" Just of course the minor detail that estonia is a member of nato and it is nato that has kept the peace by its mutual defence agreement " Does Estonia meet the Donald Trump arbitrary NATO funding threshold? If not, it may not matter that they are member of NATO. | |||
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" Just of course the minor detail that estonia is a member of nato and it is nato that has kept the peace by its mutual defence agreement Does Estonia meet the Donald Trump arbitrary NATO funding threshold? If not, it may not matter that they are member of NATO." Wont be down to him though will it, but he and we have a point about paying the 2% of gdp, perhaps nato needs to be careful or the paymasters might start kicking up like the paymasters of the eu are beginning to | |||
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"It is indeed very worrying times, and leaving the EU will make the world less stable, and war more likely. The people who are wishing for the EU to collapse are really stoking the fires of conflict. I think if that happened Russia would probably invade Estonia, maybe even further, which would see a massive exodus of people from eastern europe that would dwarf the Syrian migrant crisis." I agree, extremely worrying times. I lived through the Cold War when it seemed there was a good chance it would become a hot one. I thought we'd grown out of that and that my kids would be spared the threat of an all out conflict. Now, I'm really not so sure. Europe is definately much less stable, those wishing for the EU to fail really should be careful what they wish for. I often feel that it seems like 1930s Germany must have, it is a crazy time. True utter madness! | |||
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"It very much is already repeating itself in many ways, isolationism in 1920's America lead to the Great Depression, swiftly followed by a blame culture that resulted in European and American Jews being cited for causing poverty and unemployment amongst the masses.....then onto a World War. Today we are seeing a US President elect already looking very isolationist and shifting the blame onto other nations and immigrants. Here we have UKIP and other European political parties doing much the same, playing the blame game. Dangerous times..... exciting times " Well, there have been many ignorant comments in this forum, none more so than this! | |||
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" I agree, extremely worrying times. I lived through the Cold War when it seemed there was a good chance it would become a hot one. I thought we'd grown out of that and that my kids would be spared the threat of an all out conflict. Now, I'm really not so sure. Europe is definately much less stable, those wishing for the EU to fail really should be careful what they wish for. I often feel that it seems like 1930s Germany must have, it is a crazy time. True utter madness! " What caused the problems in Germany in the 30's ? If you dont know then google it,it makes interesting reading and should be a huge warning to those in power and with their snouts in the trough | |||
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" Just of course the minor detail that estonia is a member of nato and it is nato that has kept the peace by its mutual defence agreement Does Estonia meet the Donald Trump arbitrary NATO funding threshold? If not, it may not matter that they are member of NATO. Wont be down to him though will it, but he and we have a point about paying the 2% of gdp, perhaps nato needs to be careful or the paymasters might start kicking up like the paymasters of the eu are beginning to " Yes it would, Article 5 can only be invoked by a unanimous vote of the North Atlantic Council, the civilian oversight to NATO. So if Trump didn't give his approval, Article 5 couldn't be invoked. | |||
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" Just of course the minor detail that estonia is a member of nato and it is nato that has kept the peace by its mutual defence agreement Does Estonia meet the Donald Trump arbitrary NATO funding threshold? If not, it may not matter that they are member of NATO. Wont be down to him though will it, but he and we have a point about paying the 2% of gdp, perhaps nato needs to be careful or the paymasters might start kicking up like the paymasters of the eu are beginning to Yes it would, Article 5 can only be invoked by a unanimous vote of the North Atlantic Council, the civilian oversight to NATO. So if Trump didn't give his approval, Article 5 couldn't be invoked." It can be invoked by any member but it is confirmed by " consensous" you are really scraping the barrel if you think that trump wouldnt toe the line of the rest of nato if estonia was attacked | |||
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" Just of course the minor detail that estonia is a member of nato and it is nato that has kept the peace by its mutual defence agreement Does Estonia meet the Donald Trump arbitrary NATO funding threshold? If not, it may not matter that they are member of NATO. Wont be down to him though will it, but he and we have a point about paying the 2% of gdp, perhaps nato needs to be careful or the paymasters might start kicking up like the paymasters of the eu are beginning to Yes it would, Article 5 can only be invoked by a unanimous vote of the North Atlantic Council, the civilian oversight to NATO. So if Trump didn't give his approval, Article 5 couldn't be invoked. It can be invoked by any member but it is confirmed by " consensous" you are really scraping the barrel if you think that trump wouldnt toe the line of the rest of nato if estonia was attacked " Trump is a maverick and he will do what is best for Trump. You said it wasn't up to him, so I just explained the process to you. As I said, it has to be unanimous. Not by consensus as you state. Wikipedia: The meetings of the NAC are chaired by the Secretary General and, when decisions have to be made, action is agreed upon on the basis of unanimity and common accord. There is no voting or decision by majority. Each nation represented at the NAC table or on any of its subordinate committees retains complete sovereignty and responsibility for its own decisions. | |||
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"It is indeed very worrying times, and leaving the EU will make the world less stable, and war more likely. The people who are wishing for the EU to collapse are really stoking the fires of conflict. I think if that happened Russia would probably invade Estonia, maybe even further, which would see a massive exodus of people from eastern europe that would dwarf the Syrian migrant crisis." Ah, the old "let's blame Russia" tactic. Complete nonsense. It was the EU playing silly games with Ukraine that provoked the trouble there and ultimately led to Russia taking back Crimea. Open your eyes and look more closely at it, Russia is not always the villain. The EU must take its fair share of the blame for the Ukraine/Crimea situation. | |||
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"It is indeed very worrying times, and leaving the EU will make the world less stable, and war more likely. The people who are wishing for the EU to collapse are really stoking the fires of conflict. I think if that happened Russia would probably invade Estonia, maybe even further, which would see a massive exodus of people from eastern europe that would dwarf the Syrian migrant crisis. Ah, the old "let's blame Russia" tactic. Complete nonsense. It was the EU playing silly games with Ukraine that provoked the trouble there and ultimately led to Russia taking back Crimea. Open your eyes and look more closely at it, Russia is not always the villain. The EU must take its fair share of the blame for the Ukraine/Crimea situation. " No. Ukraine's borders were clearly defined. There is nothing that Ukraine or anyone else did, that justifies being invaded and annexed. This holds true for all countries, with the exception of R2P. | |||
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" Ah, the old "let's blame Russia" tactic. Complete nonsense. It was the EU playing silly games with Ukraine that provoked the trouble there and ultimately led to Russia taking back Crimea. Open your eyes and look more closely at it, Russia is not always the villain. The EU must take its fair share of the blame for the Ukraine/Crimea situation. " Also, you sound like someone blaming the victim rather than the rapist in sex assault. | |||
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" Trump is a maverick and he will do what is best for Trump. You said it wasn't up to him, so I just explained the process to you. As I said, it has to be unanimous. Not by consensus as you state. Wikipedia: The meetings of the NAC are chaired by the Secretary General and, when decisions have to be made, action is agreed upon on the basis of unanimity and common accord. There is no voting or decision by majority. Each nation represented at the NAC table or on any of its subordinate committees retains complete sovereignty and responsibility for its own decisions." Thanks for explaining how the world works, perhaps a better link andunderstanding would be read the nato consitution, ALL nato countries have a legal duty to come to each others aid and if putin did attack the forces on the ground would act to defend themselves | |||
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"Ah as has been said before "Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat its mistakes"........For my tuppence worth i believe it is a very dangerous time ahead. " " | |||
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"It is indeed very worrying times, and leaving the EU will make the world less stable, and war more likely. The people who are wishing for the EU to collapse are really stoking the fires of conflict. I think if that happened Russia would probably invade Estonia, maybe even further, which would see a massive exodus of people from eastern europe that would dwarf the Syrian migrant crisis." | |||
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" Ah, the old "let's blame Russia" tactic. Complete nonsense. It was the EU playing silly games with Ukraine that provoked the trouble there and ultimately led to Russia taking back Crimea. Open your eyes and look more closely at it, Russia is not always the villain. The EU must take its fair share of the blame for the Ukraine/Crimea situation. Also, you sound like someone blaming the victim rather than the rapist in sex assault." disgusting comment. He is right. | |||
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"It is indeed very worrying times, and leaving the EU will make the world less stable, and war more likely. The people who are wishing for the EU to collapse are really stoking the fires of conflict. I think if that happened Russia would probably invade Estonia, maybe even further, which would see a massive exodus of people from eastern europe that would dwarf the Syrian migrant crisis. Ah, the old "let's blame Russia" tactic. Complete nonsense. It was the EU playing silly games with Ukraine that provoked the trouble there and ultimately led to Russia taking back Crimea. Open your eyes and look more closely at it, Russia is not always the villain. The EU must take its fair share of the blame for the Ukraine/Crimea situation. " Although some on here prefer to either deny or ignore it, but it was The EU that stoked up the fire of revolution in Ukraine. The initial protests in Kiev started because the elected president chose to do a last minute deal with Russia and ignore the EU "association agreement" which was on his desk. The vast majority of the protesters (Euromaiden) were not only pro EU but were egged on by it. Some may have conveniently forgotten, but I still remember the ridiculous, but dangerous, Guy Verhofstadt visiting the protest and promising EU support for what was in reality a coup. The very same man BTW who is now the EU's chief negotiator for Brexit and has a penchant (as we saw only yesterday) of sticking his unwelcome nose into other peoples business. Make no mistake. Without EU support the Ukrainian revolution would have foundered, Crimea would still be part of Ukraine, and a Malaysian airliner would have landed safely at its destination. Nobel peace prize? My arse. | |||
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"It is indeed very worrying times, and leaving the EU will make the world less stable, and war more likely. The people who are wishing for the EU to collapse are really stoking the fires of conflict. I think if that happened Russia would probably invade Estonia, maybe even further, which would see a massive exodus of people from eastern europe that would dwarf the Syrian migrant crisis. Ah, the old "let's blame Russia" tactic. Complete nonsense. It was the EU playing silly games with Ukraine that provoked the trouble there and ultimately led to Russia taking back Crimea. Open your eyes and look more closely at it, Russia is not always the villain. The EU must take its fair share of the blame for the Ukraine/Crimea situation. Although some on here prefer to either deny or ignore it, but it was The EU that stoked up the fire of revolution in Ukraine. The initial protests in Kiev started because the elected president chose to do a last minute deal with Russia and ignore the EU "association agreement" which was on his desk. The vast majority of the protesters (Euromaiden) were not only pro EU but were egged on by it. Some may have conveniently forgotten, but I still remember the ridiculous, but dangerous, Guy Verhofstadt visiting the protest and promising EU support for what was in reality a coup. The very same man BTW who is now the EU's chief negotiator for Brexit and has a penchant (as we saw only yesterday) of sticking his unwelcome nose into other peoples business. Make no mistake. Without EU support the Ukrainian revolution would have foundered, Crimea would still be part of Ukraine, and a Malaysian airliner would have landed safely at its destination. Nobel peace prize? My arse. " | |||
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" Ah, the old "let's blame Russia" tactic. Complete nonsense. It was the EU playing silly games with Ukraine that provoked the trouble there and ultimately led to Russia taking back Crimea. Open your eyes and look more closely at it, Russia is not always the villain. The EU must take its fair share of the blame for the Ukraine/Crimea situation. Also, you sound like someone blaming the victim rather than the rapist in sex assault." OK I don't like it but I'll expand on the rape analogy a bit. If a man (the EU) takes his Mrs (Ukraine) to a swinger club and she lies on the bed shouting fuck me, then a single guy (Russia) does exactly that. It aint no rape.  | |||
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So OP, yep I definitely think we continually make the same mistakes again and again.  | |||
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"So an independent sovereign nation deserves to be invaded and annexed if they consider closer links the EU? Seriously? You guys hate the EU so much you think its acceptable for one country to invade another just to stop them talking to the EU? That civilians and service personnel should be killed. That civilians should flee their homes, and businesses and schools and family, because the government they elected spoke to the EU. That is the punishment you believe they deserve because they have a different view of the EU than you do? " get your facts right | |||
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"So an independent sovereign nation deserves to be invaded and annexed if they consider closer links the EU? Seriously? You guys hate the EU so much you think its acceptable for one country to invade another just to stop them talking to the EU? That civilians and service personnel should be killed. That civilians should flee their homes, and businesses and schools and family, because the government they elected spoke to the EU. That is the punishment you believe they deserve because they have a different view of the EU than you do? " Firstly other than in the little rape analogy, which was just me being ridiculous in answer to your ridiculous post, nowhere can it be said that I condone the Russian invasion in any way shape or form.
Secondly the "elected" president didn't do a deal with the EU it was the new revolutionary government that wanted to and ultimately did.
The elected president had to flee the country (to Russia) in fear of his life.
Idiots like Verhofstadt should have kept their noses out and not encouraged the mob to overthrow an elected (no matter how distasteful) government.
It is not acceptable for one country to invade another but it is equally unacceptable for the EU to encourage a coup. The EU did encourage it and, as I said above, none of the subsequent events would have happened if they had kept their noses out.
So from your comments I can assume that you would condone a coup as long as it supported the EU. | |||
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"So an independent sovereign nation deserves to be invaded and annexed if they consider closer links the EU? Seriously? You guys hate the EU so much you think its acceptable for one country to invade another just to stop them talking to the EU? That civilians and service personnel should be killed. That civilians should flee their homes, and businesses and schools and family, because the government they elected spoke to the EU. That is the punishment you believe they deserve because they have a different view of the EU than you do? get your facts right" That would be a first.  | |||
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" Firstly other than in the little rape analogy, which was just me being ridiculous in answer to your ridiculous post, nowhere can it be said that I condone the Russian invasion in any way shape or form.
Secondly the "elected" president didn't do a deal with the EU it was the new revolutionary government that wanted to and ultimately did.
The elected president had to flee the country (to Russia) in fear of his life.
Idiots like Verhofstadt should have kept their noses out and not encouraged the mob to overthrow an elected (no matter how distasteful) government.
It is not acceptable for one country to invade another but it is equally unacceptable for the EU to encourage a coup. The EU did encourage it and, as I said above, none of the subsequent events would have happened if they had kept their noses out.
So from your comments I can assume that you would condone a coup as long as it supported the EU. "Your comments blame the EU for the invasion, but Russia invaded. The only party at blame is Russia. No one else. | |||
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" Firstly other than in the little rape analogy, which was just me being ridiculous in answer to your ridiculous post, nowhere can it be said that I condone the Russian invasion in any way shape or form.
Secondly the "elected" president didn't do a deal with the EU it was the new revolutionary government that wanted to and ultimately did.
The elected president had to flee the country (to Russia) in fear of his life.
Idiots like Verhofstadt should have kept their noses out and not encouraged the mob to overthrow an elected (no matter how distasteful) government.
It is not acceptable for one country to invade another but it is equally unacceptable for the EU to encourage a coup. The EU did encourage it and, as I said above, none of the subsequent events would have happened if they had kept their noses out.
So from your comments I can assume that you would condone a coup as long as it supported the EU.
Your comments blame the EU for the invasion, but Russia invaded. The only party at blame is Russia. No one else."So if the EU supported mob had failed in their coup attempt and the elected president stayed in power, you still think that Russia would have annexed Crimea. Russia only annexed Crimea BECAUSE of the coup. | |||
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"It is not acceptable for one country to invade another but it is equally unacceptable for the EU to encourage a coup. The EU did encourage it and, as I said above, none of the subsequent events would have happened if they had kept their noses out." I seem to remember that something similar was said by all of the Hitler apologists when Germany annexed the Ruhr Valley and then The Sudetenland in the 1930's. | |||
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" Firstly other than in the little rape analogy, which was just me being ridiculous in answer to your ridiculous post, nowhere can it be said that I condone the Russian invasion in any way shape or form.
Secondly the "elected" president didn't do a deal with the EU it was the new revolutionary government that wanted to and ultimately did.
The elected president had to flee the country (to Russia) in fear of his life.
Idiots like Verhofstadt should have kept their noses out and not encouraged the mob to overthrow an elected (no matter how distasteful) government.
It is not acceptable for one country to invade another but it is equally unacceptable for the EU to encourage a coup. The EU did encourage it and, as I said above, none of the subsequent events would have happened if they had kept their noses out.
So from your comments I can assume that you would condone a coup as long as it supported the EU.
Your comments blame the EU for the invasion, but Russia invaded. The only party at blame is Russia. No one else.
So if the EU supported mob had failed in their coup attempt and the elected president stayed in power, you still think that Russia would have annexed Crimea.
Russia only annexed Crimea BECAUSE of the coup."You're not allowed to annex other countries, its as simple as that. Stop making excuses for them. | |||
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"It is not acceptable for one country to invade another but it is equally unacceptable for the EU to encourage a coup. The EU did encourage it and, as I said above, none of the subsequent events would have happened if they had kept their noses out. I seem to remember that something similar was said by all of the Hitler apologists when Germany annexed the Ruhr Valley and then The Sudetenland in the 1930's. " Exactly | |||
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"It is not acceptable for one country to invade another but it is equally unacceptable for the EU to encourage a coup. The EU did encourage it and, as I said above, none of the subsequent events would have happened if they had kept their noses out. I seem to remember that something similar was said by all of the Hitler apologists when Germany annexed the Ruhr Valley and then The Sudetenland in the 1930's. " Please tell me when Hitler annexed the Ruhr.  | |||
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" Firstly other than in the little rape analogy, which was just me being ridiculous in answer to your ridiculous post, nowhere can it be said that I condone the Russian invasion in any way shape or form.
Secondly the "elected" president didn't do a deal with the EU it was the new revolutionary government that wanted to and ultimately did.
The elected president had to flee the country (to Russia) in fear of his life.
Idiots like Verhofstadt should have kept their noses out and not encouraged the mob to overthrow an elected (no matter how distasteful) government.
It is not acceptable for one country to invade another but it is equally unacceptable for the EU to encourage a coup. The EU did encourage it and, as I said above, none of the subsequent events would have happened if they had kept their noses out.
So from your comments I can assume that you would condone a coup as long as it supported the EU.
Your comments blame the EU for the invasion, but Russia invaded. The only party at blame is Russia. No one else.
So if the EU supported mob had failed in their coup attempt and the elected president stayed in power, you still think that Russia would have annexed Crimea.
Russia only annexed Crimea BECAUSE of the coup.
You're not allowed to annex other countries, its as simple as that. Stop making excuses for them."You are not allowed to destabilise other countries. Stop making excuses for them. | |||
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"Please tell me when Hitler annexed the Ruhr. "March 1936... Cant remember off hand the exact date but a couple of months later he made his 'peace speech' where he first said he had no further territorial ambitions. | |||
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"Please tell me when Hitler annexed the Ruhr.
March 1936...
Cant remember off hand the exact date but a couple of months later he made his 'peace speech' where he first said he had no further territorial ambitions."Date..... correct. Geography... Fail. | |||
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"Please tell me when Hitler annexed the Ruhr.
March 1936...
Cant remember off hand the exact date but a couple of months later he made his 'peace speech' where he first said he had no further territorial ambitions.
Date..... correct.
Geography... Fail."There is another bit you have got slightly wrong as well, but I'll let you sort out your mistakes one at a time. | |||
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"What about Russia annexing parts of Georgia? What excuse have you got for that? " Nice subject change  | |||
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"Date..... correct. Geography... Fail." Again you are incorrect, The Ruhr Valley is the Western part of the Rhineland, and was the important part of the Rhineland ceded to the French as war reparations by the Treaty of Versailles. | |||
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"What about Russia annexing parts of Georgia? What excuse have you got for that? Nice subject change "The subject being Russian military aggression and expansionism.... | |||
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"What about Russia annexing parts of Georgia? What excuse have you got for that? Nice subject change
The subject being Russian military aggression and expansionism.... "I thought it was Ukraine. The aggression was provoked by the EU and the only attempts at expansionism, which Russia resisted, were those made by NATO and the EU | |||
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"Date..... correct. Geography... Fail. Again you are incorrect, The Ruhr Valley is the Western part of the Rhineland, and was the important part of the Rhineland ceded to the French as war reparations by the Treaty of Versailles." Er nope. I was going to say try again, but I'll educate you. The Rhineland, as detailed in Versailles, was all land to the west of the river up to the French, Belgian, and Luxembourg borders. See map on Wiki. The river Ruhr flows roughly from the east and joins the Rhine at Duisburg. None of the Ruhr valley was part of what was called the Rhineland. There was a clause in Versailles that forbade German military installations within 50 kms of the east bank and there were some allied troops stationed there for a while (they were long gone before 1936) but the territory was still Germany. Hitler never had to annex the Ruhr because it was always part of Germany. As for the Rhineland itself. While it was occupied after WW1 allied troops had vacated it by 1930 and it had been part of Germany since the formation of the country so it was never an annexation, again because it was still German territory. The only thing Hitler did was to re-militarise it against the terms of Versailles. The Sudetenland was however an annexation. | |||
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"What about Russia annexing parts of Georgia? What excuse have you got for that? Nice subject change
The subject being Russian military aggression and expansionism.... "The subject being the EU encouraging the violent overthrow of an elected government. | |||
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"Ultimately human history is a conveyor belt, events, ideas and theories get recycled. A mixture of the three get their time in the limelight, they fail or burst, chaos of some kind insures, then a 'new' set of ideas come up, they fail, then a new take on old ideas reappear... ect." Actually there is one idea that keeps succeeding, unfortunately it only ever lasts as long as the establishment of the time sees a need to have the cooperation of the general population and always breaks down when the establishment reintroduce personal greed in order to divide the general population in order to retrieve the part of their wealth that they temporarily passed to the general population. Today we call it socialism, in the past the concept was know as 'noblesse oblige'. | |||
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" Ah, the old "let's blame Russia" tactic. Complete nonsense. It was the EU playing silly games with Ukraine that provoked the trouble there and ultimately led to Russia taking back Crimea. Open your eyes and look more closely at it, Russia is not always the villain. The EU must take its fair share of the blame for the Ukraine/Crimea situation. Also, you sound like someone blaming the victim rather than the rapist in sex assault. OK I don't like it but I'll expand on the rape analogy a bit. If a man (the EU) takes his Mrs (Ukraine) to a swinger club and she lies on the bed shouting fuck me, then a single guy (Russia) does exactly that. It aint no rape. "I seem to remember Crimea having an election too, in which a majority voted to be ruled by Russia. | |||
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" I agree, extremely worrying times. I lived through the Cold War when it seemed there was a good chance it would become a hot one. I thought we'd grown out of that and that my kids would be spared the threat of an all out conflict. Now, I'm really not so sure. Europe is definately much less stable, those wishing for the EU to fail really should be careful what they wish for. I often feel that it seems like 1930s Germany must have, it is a crazy time. True utter madness! What caused the problems in Germany in the 30's ? If you dont know then google it,it makes interesting reading and should be a huge warning to those in power and with their snouts in the trough " The German problems of the 30's are more like Greece today and they will not be starting a war. | |||
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" I agree, extremely worrying times. I lived through the Cold War when it seemed there was a good chance it would become a hot one. I thought we'd grown out of that and that my kids would be spared the threat of an all out conflict. Now, I'm really not so sure. Europe is definately much less stable, those wishing for the EU to fail really should be careful what they wish for. I often feel that it seems like 1930s Germany must have, it is a crazy time. True utter madness! What caused the problems in Germany in the 30's ? If you dont know then google it,it makes interesting reading and should be a huge warning to those in power and with their snouts in the trough The German problems of the 30's are more like Greece today and they will not be starting a war. " But they have a right wing party called golden dawn that is very popular. | |||
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" I agree, extremely worrying times. I lived through the Cold War when it seemed there was a good chance it would become a hot one. I thought we'd grown out of that and that my kids would be spared the threat of an all out conflict. Now, I'm really not so sure. Europe is definately much less stable, those wishing for the EU to fail really should be careful what they wish for. I often feel that it seems like 1930s Germany must have, it is a crazy time. True utter madness! What caused the problems in Germany in the 30's ? If you dont know then google it,it makes interesting reading and should be a huge warning to those in power and with their snouts in the trough The German problems of the 30's are more like Greece today and they will not be starting a war. But they have a right wing party called golden dawn that is very popular." Greece have gone the other way and elected a far left anti austerity government though. | |||
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"What about Russia annexing parts of Georgia? What excuse have you got for that? Nice subject change
The subject being Russian military aggression and expansionism.... "So none of the Russian apologists have got an answer to this then? | |||
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" I agree, extremely worrying times. I lived through the Cold War when it seemed there was a good chance it would become a hot one. I thought we'd grown out of that and that my kids would be spared the threat of an all out conflict. Now, I'm really not so sure. Europe is definately much less stable, those wishing for the EU to fail really should be careful what they wish for. I often feel that it seems like 1930s Germany must have, it is a crazy time. True utter madness! What caused the problems in Germany in the 30's ? If you dont know then google it,it makes interesting reading and should be a huge warning to those in power and with their snouts in the trough The German problems of the 30's are more like Greece today and they will not be starting a war. But they have a right wing party called golden dawn that is very popular. Greece have gone the other way and elected a far left anti austerity government though. " It doesn't really matter though. You can be far left or far right and war mongering. I seem to remember that the Nazi party 's rise to prominence was assisted by military restrictions having being put upon Germany after WW1, in addition to economic sanctions which caused poverty and austerity. When a nation feels so hemmed in and restricted, it's not surprising when the people vote for a party which promotes land, infrastructure and investment for their people. You just had to accept that alongside a dogma and their ideology. | |||
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"The people in power, and those who wish to blindly follow said people due to identity politics,or cults of personality risk making mistakes which could be avoided if we objectively look at political history and economics. This goes for all parties and people, both left and right. Honestly I wouldn't be supprised if something terrible happens in the next decade. Worse than ISIS. The Philippines are looking to throw off American protectionism in favour of moving to a closer political and military alliance with China - China and Russia have good relations already. Somehow I think this could be the start of, at the minimum, same form of trade war. Meanwhile in Europe, people and parties both left and right are dividing the populace. And we know what happens when that strategy of division hits a tipping point. Ultimately human history is a conveyor belt, events, ideas and theories get recycled. A mixture of the three get their time in the limelight, they fail or burst, chaos of some kind insures, then a 'new' set of ideas come up, they fail, then a new take on old ideas reappear... ect." . It's the three generation rule!. That's the time required for future generations to forget or think the past was different and for them to replicate they're grandparents mistakes. If you look through history financial collapses come about every 70 years give or take a bit, it's nearly always the exact same causes and the exact same regulation failure. The one good thing that's come about recently is the internet, it's linked massive amounts of the world population closer together which makes it harder for the establishment to cajole them.... What we do see is straight splits through society from country to country, middle ground politics certainty seems to be finished for better or worse | |||
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"What about Russia annexing parts of Georgia? What excuse have you got for that? Nice subject change
The subject being Russian military aggression and expansionism....
So none of the Russian apologists have got an answer to this then? "I am not a Russia apologist although it would suit your agenda to try to tag me and everyone else with it. Pointing out that the EU destabilised a country and supported a violent coup is in no way making an apology for the other side. What Russia did in Ukraine was wrong, very WRONG. Understand? Get it? Do I need to spell it out for you any more clearly? W R O N G. However the EU was equally culpable by goading the Russians into it. AND THEY BLOODY WELL DID whether you like it or not. The EU caused the problem that led to the Russian action, the EU caused it, started it, then hid behind the couch when it went tits up. Two wrongs don't make a right and there were definitely two wrongs in the Ukraine and one of them was the EU. I make no apology for Russia but you seem to think that it all fine and dandy for the EU to destabilise a country and then support a violent overthrow of an elected government. I DON'T. | |||
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"What about Russia annexing parts of Georgia? What excuse have you got for that? Nice subject change
The subject being Russian military aggression and expansionism....
So none of the Russian apologists have got an answer to this then?
I am not a Russia apologist although it would suit your agenda to try to tag me and everyone else with it.
Pointing out that the EU destabilised a country and supported a violent coup is in no way making an apology for the other side.
What Russia did in Ukraine was wrong, very WRONG. Understand? Get it? Do I need to spell it out for you any more clearly? W R O N G.
However the EU was equally culpable by goading the Russians into it. AND THEY BLOODY WELL DID whether you like it or not.
The EU caused the problem that led to the Russian action, the EU caused it, started it, then hid behind the couch when it went tits up.
Two wrongs don't make a right and there were definitely two wrongs in the Ukraine and one of them was the EU.
I make no apology for Russia but you seem to think that it all fine and dandy for the EU to destabilise a country and then support a violent overthrow of an elected government.
I DON'T.
"Well the weren't equally culpable were they? One had a dialogue and one invaded and annexed another country. | |||
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"What about Russia annexing parts of Georgia? What excuse have you got for that? Nice subject change
The subject being Russian military aggression and expansionism....
So none of the Russian apologists have got an answer to this then?
I am not a Russia apologist although it would suit your agenda to try to tag me and everyone else with it.
Pointing out that the EU destabilised a country and supported a violent coup is in no way making an apology for the other side.
What Russia did in Ukraine was wrong, very WRONG. Understand? Get it? Do I need to spell it out for you any more clearly? W R O N G.
However the EU was equally culpable by goading the Russians into it. AND THEY BLOODY WELL DID whether you like it or not.
The EU caused the problem that led to the Russian action, the EU caused it, started it, then hid behind the couch when it went tits up.
Two wrongs don't make a right and there were definitely two wrongs in the Ukraine and one of them was the EU.
I make no apology for Russia but you seem to think that it all fine and dandy for the EU to destabilise a country and then support a violent overthrow of an elected government.
I DON'T.
Well the weren't equally culpable were they? One had a dialogue and one invaded and annexed another country. "Nonsense. You can backtrack as much as you like but, like it or not, your beloved EU drove Ukraine into a civil war which ultimately led to the deaths of hundreds if not thousands, including the Malaysian airline passengers. The EU were accessories to murder. | |||
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" Well the weren't equally culpable were they? One had a dialogue and one invaded and annexed another country. Nonsense. You can backtrack as much as you like but, like it or not, your beloved EU drove Ukraine into a civil war which ultimately led to the deaths of hundreds if not thousands, including the Malaysian airline passengers. The EU were accessories to murder. " I'm not backtracking at all. What exactly did the EU do. Lay your case out for me. Did they supply weapons? Money? Did they provide soldiers? As your accusations are against the EU, rather than the individual member states, please be clear on just what the EU did. It wasn't a civil war as you call it. It was one sovereign nation invading another. | |||
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" Well the weren't equally culpable were they? One had a dialogue and one invaded and annexed another country. Nonsense. You can backtrack as much as you like but, like it or not, your beloved EU drove Ukraine into a civil war which ultimately led to the deaths of hundreds if not thousands, including the Malaysian airline passengers. The EU were accessories to murder. I'm not backtracking at all. What exactly did the EU do. Lay your case out for me. Did they supply weapons? Money? Did they provide soldiers? As your accusations are against the EU, rather than the individual member states, please be clear on just what the EU did. It wasn't a civil war as you call it. It was one sovereign nation invading another. " EU may have been the cause of the conflict but it was Russia, Crimea and protests in Kiev that began their fights. I don't get how twisted peoples views get, just to prove their own point. It's like a cheating husband who avoids the blame and the women blame each other. | |||
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" Well the weren't equally culpable were they? One had a dialogue and one invaded and annexed another country. Nonsense. You can backtrack as much as you like but, like it or not, your beloved EU drove Ukraine into a civil war which ultimately led to the deaths of hundreds if not thousands, including the Malaysian airline passengers. The EU were accessories to murder. I'm not backtracking at all. What exactly did the EU do. Lay your case out for me. Did they supply weapons? Money? Did they provide soldiers? As your accusations are against the EU, rather than the individual member states, please be clear on just what the EU did. It wasn't a civil war as you call it. It was one sovereign nation invading another. " Apologies for the delay but the internet is a bit shitty at 36,000 feet. If that is the bit of it you like then carry on standing in the corner with your fingers in your ears singing lalalalala. It was a coup which turned into a civil war which ended with a Russian invasion and annexation of the Crimea. Answer to you questions Did the EU send arms? Not as I'm aware of. Did the EU promise money? Yes 18 billion Euro's to be precise (backed up by the IMF) to the elec..... oh sorry no, to the MOB protesting in Independence Square. With a nice little EU association agreement attached. Euro MEP Guy Verhofstadt (leader of ALDE the EU parliament Liberal group) visited Ukraine with a delegation of other EU bigwigs (if I remember correctly our very own Cathy Ashton was part of the team but not 100% on that bit) and made a rabble rousing speech in Independence square to the MOB in which he stated, to the MOB. "You are defending European values, European principles and European democracy". While encouraging them to overthrow an elected government. If in doubt it's there for all to see on youtube.
Before you try to dismiss him as some kind of maverick that the EU has disowned (as I'm almost sure you would like to try) He is a close confidant of the EU inner circle and has just been given the job of chief negotiator for Brexit and had full EU approval for his visit.
Like it or not the EU supported a MOB in its overthrow of an elected government long before any Russian tanks crossed the border.
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