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"I don't class myself by how I voted in the referendum .... life goes on. One thing to think about is how bad it must be on other countries ... surely even middle England is preferable to Aleppo, for example. If course, migrants don't know that they are walking into a hornet's nest .... I know that because many I have met have said that to me .... so I don't think the fact that people come here reflects well on us as a nation. It says more about outsiders' perceptions ..." I was talking about EU citizens though. So how bad must it be in their countries to want to move to an island full of bigots and with a doomed economy? (Which it isn't but that's all we hear from some) | |||
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"I don't class myself by how I voted in the referendum .... life goes on. One thing to think about is how bad it must be on other countries ... surely even middle England is preferable to Aleppo, for example. If course, migrants don't know that they are walking into a hornet's nest .... I know that because many I have met have said that to me .... so I don't think the fact that people come here reflects well on us as a nation. It says more about outsiders' perceptions ... I was talking about EU citizens though. So how bad must it be in their countries to want to move to an island full of bigots and with a doomed economy? (Which it isn't but that's all we hear from some)" Okay, same argument goes, many EU immigrants, polish and other eastern Europeans are shocked at what they face here and had no idea what it was like per the propaganda at home. You are trying to get someone to admit we aren't bigots .... some of us aren't, but there are many who are. Many who I wouldn't want to be around .... | |||
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"Okay, same argument goes, many EU immigrants, polish and other eastern Europeans are shocked at what they face here and had no idea what it was like per the propaganda at home. You are trying to get someone to admit we aren't bigots .... some of us aren't, but there are many who are. Many who I wouldn't want to be around ...." And many Brits are shocked by the fact that there are over 10,000 foreigners in British jails including over 1000 Poles! While the levels of immigration into THEIR countries pales into insignificance when compared to the levels we are experiencing! | |||
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"I don't class myself by how I voted in the referendum .... life goes on. One thing to think about is how bad it must be on other countries ... surely even middle England is preferable to Aleppo, for example. If course, migrants don't know that they are walking into a hornet's nest .... I know that because many I have met have said that to me .... so I don't think the fact that people come here reflects well on us as a nation. It says more about outsiders' perceptions ... I was talking about EU citizens though. So how bad must it be in their countries to want to move to an island full of bigots and with a doomed economy? (Which it isn't but that's all we hear from some) Okay, same argument goes, many EU immigrants, polish and other eastern Europeans are shocked at what they face here and had no idea what it was like per the propaganda at home. You are trying to get someone to admit we aren't bigots .... some of us aren't, but there are many who are. Many who I wouldn't want to be around ...." You are unbelievable. Shocked at what they face here? Why do they stay? | |||
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"Why is it always them and us with you? Dont you see 'them' as people e like 'us'?" Like us? No, I see them as people like me | |||
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"I don't class myself by how I voted in the referendum .... life goes on. One thing to think about is how bad it must be on other countries ... surely even middle England is preferable to Aleppo, for example. If course, migrants don't know that they are walking into a hornet's nest .... I know that because many I have met have said that to me .... so I don't think the fact that people come here reflects well on us as a nation. It says more about outsiders' perceptions ... I was talking about EU citizens though. So how bad must it be in their countries to want to move to an island full of bigots and with a doomed economy? (Which it isn't but that's all we hear from some)" Those figures were from before the referendum. Seems to me there's plenty to go around - why do we have to be so selfish?  | |||
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"I don't class myself by how I voted in the referendum .... life goes on. One thing to think about is how bad it must be on other countries ... surely even middle England is preferable to Aleppo, for example. If course, migrants don't know that they are walking into a hornet's nest .... I know that because many I have met have said that to me .... so I don't think the fact that people come here reflects well on us as a nation. It says more about outsiders' perceptions ... I was talking about EU citizens though. So how bad must it be in their countries to want to move to an island full of bigots and with a doomed economy? (Which it isn't but that's all we hear from some) Those figures were from before the referendum. Seems to me there's plenty to go around - why do we have to be so selfish? "Its the 'them and us' mentality.... | |||
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"I don't class myself by how I voted in the referendum .... life goes on. One thing to think about is how bad it must be on other countries ... surely even middle England is preferable to Aleppo, for example. If course, migrants don't know that they are walking into a hornet's nest .... I know that because many I have met have said that to me .... so I don't think the fact that people come here reflects well on us as a nation. It says more about outsiders' perceptions ... I was talking about EU citizens though. So how bad must it be in their countries to want to move to an island full of bigots and with a doomed economy? (Which it isn't but that's all we hear from some) Those figures were from before the referendum. Seems to me there's plenty to go around - why do we have to be so selfish?
Its the 'them and us' mentality...."What would you rather have people write instead? Something along the lines of 'European Union citizens coming from the continent of Europe on planet Earth in the solar system in the Milky way galaxy'? Seems a rather long winded way of simply saying 'them' which takes up less server space and makes posts shorter and easier and quicker to read.  | |||
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""They" don't give up anything they will get residency like exactly the same as all the UK pensioners in Spain Cyprus etc, they will all be still citizens of their respective countries." True, maybe I was being a bit over the top but there are still a lot who will take up UK citizenship | |||
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"I don't class myself by how I voted in the referendum .... life goes on. One thing to think about is how bad it must be on other countries ... surely even middle England is preferable to Aleppo, for example. If course, migrants don't know that they are walking into a hornet's nest .... I know that because many I have met have said that to me .... so I don't think the fact that people come here reflects well on us as a nation. It says more about outsiders' perceptions ... I was talking about EU citizens though. So how bad must it be in their countries to want to move to an island full of bigots and with a doomed economy? (Which it isn't but that's all we hear from some) Those figures were from before the referendum. Seems to me there's plenty to go around - why do we have to be so selfish? "You think its changed much since? Plenty of what to go round? Why was I beimg selfish? I just asked why so many still want to live in the UK if it's such a disaster and things on the continent are so good. Why not try to answer? | |||
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"I don't class myself by how I voted in the referendum .... life goes on. One thing to think about is how bad it must be on other countries ... surely even middle England is preferable to Aleppo, for example. If course, migrants don't know that they are walking into a hornet's nest .... I know that because many I have met have said that to me .... so I don't think the fact that people come here reflects well on us as a nation. It says more about outsiders' perceptions ... I was talking about EU citizens though. So how bad must it be in their countries to want to move to an island full of bigots and with a doomed economy? (Which it isn't but that's all we hear from some) Those figures were from before the referendum. Seems to me there's plenty to go around - why do we have to be so selfish?
Its the 'them and us' mentality...."No it's not, you are acting like a bigot and see racism where none exists. I simply asked a questin | |||
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"Employment at a minimum of £7.20 an hour......it's not rocket science" So the UK can afford to pay more than other EU countries? Why is that? | |||
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"And the English people are so bad and racist that record numbers of EU citizens are leaving their EU countries to come and live here. Any Remainers care to explain why?" It has been quite funny listening to how the latest immigration figures have been spun, but let me share my reading of the figures with the forum and see how others (especially the pro immigration control lobby) answer my observations. Firstly, there were some 300 and odd thousand emigrated It is safe to assume most of them moved to Portugal, Spain, France and other milder EU climates. Second, some 300 and odd thousand EU citizens moved to Briton. Therefore the net migration figure between the UK and the rest of the EU is near zero. Third, some 300 and odd thousand non EU citizens permanently moved to the UK last year, so the net migration figure is in reality predominately made up of non EU citizens and the UK government already have TOTAL control over all immigration from non EU countries so these figures can in no way be blamed on the EU, nor can the all be medical professionals coming to work in the NHS. Therefore it is my contention that migration is being used as a covert weapon by an anti EU government to give substance to the ultra right wing xenophobia driven anti EU brexit agenda. I eagerly await the comments of other forumites especially those who support leaving the EU to control and reduce immigration. | |||
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"And the English people are so bad and racist that record numbers of EU citizens are leaving their EU countries to come and live here. Any Remainers care to explain why? It has been quite funny listening to how the latest immigration figures have been spun, but let me share my reading of the figures with the forum and see how others (especially the pro immigration control lobby) answer my observations. Firstly, there were some 300 and odd thousand emigrated It is safe to assume most of them moved to Portugal, Spain, France and other milder EU climates. Second, some 300 and odd thousand EU citizens moved to Briton. Therefore the net migration figure between the UK and the rest of the EU is near zero. Third, some 300 and odd thousand non EU citizens permanently moved to the UK last year, so the net migration figure is in reality predominately made up of non EU citizens and the UK government already have TOTAL control over all immigration from non EU countries so these figures can in no way be blamed on the EU, nor can the all be medical professionals coming to work in the NHS. Therefore it is my contention that migration is being used as a covert weapon by an anti EU government to give substance to the ultra right wing xenophobia driven anti EU brexit agenda. I eagerly await the comments of other forumites especially those who support leaving the EU to control and reduce immigration." Yes people have left the country to maybe return home or retire to warmer climes but you haven't answered the question. Why are so many EU citizens still moving to the UK? | |||
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""They" don't give up anything they will get residency like exactly the same as all the UK pensioners in Spain Cyprus etc, they will all be still citizens of their respective countries. True, maybe I was being a bit over the top but there are still a lot who will take up UK citizenship" Whilst not having to give up their own, dual citizenship, you know, like Farage got after the referendum so he wouldn't lose any rights. | |||
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"I think you are very aware of the answer to that, our economy is stronger than many, but not all, EU nations.....as I said, it's not rocket science. if you were a Portugese agricultural worker why wouldnt you move around Europe looking to earn more for your skill set? The same went for British bricklayers in the 80's who worked in Germany who needed their skills during their construction boom....... " Janes Hubby, you're so silly. British people are 'ex-pats' when they go to live and work abroad (you know, like the OP), it's only 'other' people who are dirty, scrounging 'immigrants' not us Brits | |||
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"Yes people have left the country to maybe return home or retire to warmer climes but you haven't answered the question. Why are so many EU citizens still moving to the UK?" Ah, right, well done, dismiss what I have pointed out, don't mention the 300 and odd NON EU migrants and harp on about those bloody EU foreigners coming here. But just to satisfy you... Maybe they are coming here because they are highly educated, multilingual young people are looking to experience other countries and practice their language skills. | |||
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"I think you are very aware of the answer to that, our economy is stronger than many, but not all, EU nations.....as I said, it's not rocket science. if you were a Portugese agricultural worker why wouldnt you move around Europe looking to earn more for your skill set? The same went for British bricklayers in the 80's who worked in Germany who needed their skills during their construction boom....... " Oh, so people could move before the EU, who'd have thought. But once living costs, rents etc are taken out of the equation I don't see how they are earning more. Is it not simply a case of the EU not working? | |||
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"Yes people have left the country to maybe return home or retire to warmer climes but you haven't answered the question. Why are so many EU citizens still moving to the UK? Ah, right, well done, dismiss what I have pointed out, don't mention the 300 and odd NON EU migrants and harp on about those bloody EU foreigners coming here. But just to satisfy you... Maybe they are coming here because they are highly educated, multilingual young people are looking to experience other countries and practice their language skills."  | |||
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"I think you are very aware of the answer to that, our economy is stronger than many, but not all, EU nations.....as I said, it's not rocket science. if you were a Portugese agricultural worker why wouldnt you move around Europe looking to earn more for your skill set? The same went for British bricklayers in the 80's who worked in Germany who needed their skills during their construction boom....... Janes Hubby, you're so silly. British people are 'ex-pats' when they go to live and work abroad (you know, like the OP), it's only 'other' people who are dirty, scrounging 'immigrants' not us Brits "who is knocking immigrants? I am asking why?!! | |||
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 ).... If you go there at 5pm half the friggin shop is foreign languages, all this while the government says there's 80 thousand a year blah blah blah.
People lead normal lives, we've seen the last ten years of can't get a doctor's appointment, can't get a school place, traffic jams everywhere, trains rammed full.... We know there's more here than they tell us??.
And that's not anti immigration, it's anti this chaotic government inspired immigration fuck up, nobody knows shit about how many is here, going, working, housing, part time, full time, kids... NOBODY would run a fucking business like this, it's a right royal cock up....
If we need 600,000 a year we need 600,000 I haven't got a problem with that, but where's the fucking planning? | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! ". You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!. Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement "Maybe ...but the point i was trying to make....was once the economic conditions got better over here they came home....as will the migrants that come to the UK....the whole purpose of the EU was to make a level playing field for all workers and companies....in some countries we've already seen that happen | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement "exactly  | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement "Sorry Doors, but your arguement does not hold water. On another thread you were complaining about traffic jams, not getting your kids into a school, not being able to get a doctors appointment. That has absolutely nothing to do with having a job arranged before they get here, and everything to do with the total number of immigrants. | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement
Sorry Doors, but your arguement does not hold water. On another thread you were complaining about traffic jams, not getting your kids into a school, not being able to get a doctors appointment. That has absolutely nothing to do with having a job arranged before they get here, and everything to do with the total number of immigrants.". That's exactly my point.... Long term infrastructure plans. The first thing we need to work out is what's the number of immigration per year we need, you then plan your 10 ,20 infrastructure plan around that. X number of schools,x number of doctors, trains, power grid supply, gas, roads.... Etc etc. What we've done is have no fucking clue how many come and go, squeeze existing infrastructure to the absolute maximum, spend nothing and try to then squeeze every penny out of the immigration benefit. It's in my opinion a crap way to do it?. Mel just said before, it was all fine they all went home???. That's not what I would want, I've just spent billions on infrastructure, if your building new doctors surgeries, hospitals, roads and schools the last thing I want is them all fucking off?. . Short term immigration, summer work, long term immigration, 5 year contacts 10 years, never going home???. We just don't know anything and we plan shitly for it, like I said no business would do it | |||
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"Many British businesses rely on short term seasonal immigrants and could not operate without them....." . I absolutely agree | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement
Sorry Doors, but your arguement does not hold water. On another thread you were complaining about traffic jams, not getting your kids into a school, not being able to get a doctors appointment. That has absolutely nothing to do with having a job arranged before they get here, and everything to do with the total number of immigrants..
That's exactly my point.... Long term infrastructure plans.
The first thing we need to work out is what's the number of immigration per year we need, you then plan your 10 ,20 infrastructure plan around that.
X number of schools,x number of doctors, trains, power grid supply, gas, roads.... Etc etc.
What we've done is have no fucking clue how many come and go, squeeze existing infrastructure to the absolute maximum, spend nothing and try to then squeeze every penny out of the immigration benefit.
It's in my opinion a crap way to do it?.
Mel just said before, it was all fine they all went home???.
That's not what I would want, I've just spent billions on infrastructure, if your building new doctors surgeries, hospitals, roads and schools the last thing I want is them all fucking off?.
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Short term immigration, summer work, long term immigration, 5 year contacts 10 years, never going home???.
We just don't know anything and we plan shitly for it, like I said no business would do it"exactly again. It's common sense. Sadly lacking by a lot on here | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement "How do they cope with the chaotic free movement of people in the United States? By your logic, Florida and California should be seething hotbeds of resentment and demandeding an exit from the concept of free movement. | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement
How do they cope with the chaotic free movement of people in the United States?
By your logic, Florida and California should be seething hotbeds of resentment and demandeding an exit from the concept of free movement. ". Well that's an interesting point in itself to be honest. The main difference with the US is they have very little difference in social security, and an ingrained culture of getting up and fucking off to where the work is!...I think it gives them alot of their edge on productivity over the EU. Go west they cried and they did.... Didn't work out to well for the natives though.... Clash of cultures | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement
How do they cope with the chaotic free movement of people in the United States?
By your logic, Florida and California should be seething hotbeds of resentment and demandeding an exit from the concept of free movement. "and when they leave Floriad and California I take it they will no longer be paying tax in the U.S? | |||
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"Floriad? Florida" Just woke up, posting on my phone. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking!" So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone. "that was me not you  .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave? | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated?" . I'm not sure you couldn't say Florida isn't "angry" they just voted for Donald trump?. California has always been a bastion of liberalness, with conservative fiscal policies occasionally thrown in (Ronnie and Arnie). You know the funny thing about the US is the jobs went south twice, first they went from the northern states to the southern states and then from their to Mexico!. The concept of getting off your arse and working only works when you have less social security... Hence the migration south | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?"I don't follow you? There are three types of "migrants" to the UK Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return. Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country. Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle. If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave? | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?"They are still paying into the UK tax system while they are living and working here though..... | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated?" They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. | |||
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"I know the answer.......because in California, like in Britain, the local populace just won't work in agriculture in fruit and vegetable picking jobs. Hence why migration into these areas is absolutely necessary and goes unapposed by the locals." . Funnily enough Californias two main water supplies come from the Colorado and I think the siera Nevada snow pack...... Both of which have been utterly devastated in recent decades... There now experiencing a 500 year drought that doesn't look too be getting better anytime soon. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated?. I'm not sure you couldn't say Florida isn't "angry" they just voted for Donald trump?. California has always been a bastion of liberalness, with conservative fiscal policies occasionally thrown in (Ronnie and Arnie). You know the funny thing about the US is the jobs went south twice, first they went from the northern states to the southern states and then from their to Mexico!. The concept of getting off your arse and working only works when you have less social security... Hence the migration south" They are not angry about free movement across the United States though are they? No one is angry about Americans moving from state to state. Why are we so angry about moving from European state to European state? Florida and California (and Texas and parts of Arizona) are booming because of inward migration but no one is angry about it, they in fact celebrate it. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. " But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated?. I'm not sure you couldn't say Florida isn't "angry" they just voted for Donald trump?. California has always been a bastion of liberalness, with conservative fiscal policies occasionally thrown in (Ronnie and Arnie). You know the funny thing about the US is the jobs went south twice, first they went from the northern states to the southern states and then from their to Mexico!. The concept of getting off your arse and working only works when you have less social security... Hence the migration south They are not angry about free movement across the United States though are they? No one is angry about Americans moving from state to state. Why are we so angry about moving from European state to European state? Florida and California (and Texas and parts of Arizona) are booming because of inward migration but no one is angry about it, they in fact celebrate it." Americans are angry about immigration, that is in part why Donald Trump won. He won saying he would clamp down on immigration. Americans have had enough and want change. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated." . It would work in the EU just as well.... But the EU would need to abandon it's social security platform. Imagine if California offered free healthcare, pensions, 25 dollars an hour minimum wage, state housing, state benefits.... What do you think the people from the other states would do who didn't? | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated?. I'm not sure you couldn't say Florida isn't "angry" they just voted for Donald trump?. California has always been a bastion of liberalness, with conservative fiscal policies occasionally thrown in (Ronnie and Arnie). You know the funny thing about the US is the jobs went south twice, first they went from the northern states to the southern states and then from their to Mexico!. The concept of getting off your arse and working only works when you have less social security... Hence the migration south They are not angry about free movement across the United States though are they? No one is angry about Americans moving from state to state. Why are we so angry about moving from European state to European state? Florida and California (and Texas and parts of Arizona) are booming because of inward migration but no one is angry about it, they in fact celebrate it. Americans are angry about immigration, that is in part why Donald Trump won. He won saying he would clamp down on immigration. Americans have had enough and want change. " But not angry enough to get on a bus and travel to California for Seven months a year to pick fruit for minimum wage?.....remind you of many angry out of work Brits? | |||
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"California has around 55,000 seasonal foreign migrants each year, mainly from Mexico, who work the Seven month season then return home. And like with many British farmers the Californian agriculture industry couldn't cope without them." . We keep agreeing on this point, I don't think anybody sensible disagrees on that fact | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated." America is a fully integrated Federal system. The EU is not. The EU is a mish mash of different countries with different ideas who want to implement their own solutions to different problems. That's why the EU will never work. America is one country, the EU is not. America wants to cut immigration from outside it's country as now do many EU countries. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated. America is a fully integrated Federal system. The EU is not. The EU is a mish mash of different countries with different ideas who want to implement their own solutions to different problems. That's why the EU will never work. America is one country, the EU is not. America wants to cut immigration from outside it's country as now do many EU countries. " That is irrelevant to the basis of the point I am making to "doors" and his assertion was that free movement was chaotic. Free movement exists in the US irrespective of the underlying factors and people in States and cities with exploding populations don't resent the arrivals. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated. America is a fully integrated Federal system. The EU is not. The EU is a mish mash of different countries with different ideas who want to implement their own solutions to different problems. That's why the EU will never work. America is one country, the EU is not. America wants to cut immigration from outside it's country as now do many EU countries. That is irrelevant to the basis of the point I am making to "doors" and his assertion was that free movement was chaotic. Free movement exists in the US irrespective of the underlying factors and people in States and cities with exploding populations don't resent the arrivals." That's because America is one country. As the UK is one country Brits don't complain about other Brits moving between different counties within the UK. America wants to cut immigration from outside of its country same as the UK does. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated. America is a fully integrated Federal system. The EU is not. The EU is a mish mash of different countries with different ideas who want to implement their own solutions to different problems. That's why the EU will never work. America is one country, the EU is not. America wants to cut immigration from outside it's country as now do many EU countries. That is irrelevant to the basis of the point I am making to "doors" and his assertion was that free movement was chaotic. Free movement exists in the US irrespective of the underlying factors and people in States and cities with exploding populations don't resent the arrivals." . Hang on I've just spent 30 minutes explaining the differences why I think it works there but not here?. I've got no problems in free movement if you want to abandon our healthcare system, social housing and benefits, it will work just like that USA. Those who work come and multiply those who don't go live in a tent and die | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated. America is a fully integrated Federal system. The EU is not. The EU is a mish mash of different countries with different ideas who want to implement their own solutions to different problems. That's why the EU will never work. America is one country, the EU is not. America wants to cut immigration from outside it's country as now do many EU countries. That is irrelevant to the basis of the point I am making to "doors" and his assertion was that free movement was chaotic. Free movement exists in the US irrespective of the underlying factors and people in States and cities with exploding populations don't resent the arrivals. That's because America is one country. As the UK is one country Brits don't complain about other Brits moving between different counties within the UK. America wants to cut immigration from outside of its country same as the UK does. " Btw...America is not one country...its made up of 51 states i believe most of which have different laws...but all come under federal law | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement "Free movement of labour existed in the EEC/EC. Our immigration controls with Europe have not changed in any meaningful way since 1973. | |||
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" Btw...America is not one country...its made up of 51 states i believe most of which have different laws...but all come under federal law ". No it is one country made up of 50 States not 51(that's the UK ).
The UK is one country made up of three states(I don't include n Ireland) as that's a trickier one all of its own | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement
Free movement of labour existed in the EEC/EC. Our immigration controls with Europe have not changed in any meaningful way since 1973. ". Well they didn't need to because half the poor countries weren't in the eec in the 70s. Mass immigration doesn't really ever occur between relatively comparable GDPs | |||
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" Btw...America is not one country...its made up of 51 states i believe most of which have different laws...but all come under federal law .
No it is one country made up of 50 States not 51(that's the UK ).
The UK is one country made up of three states(I don't include n Ireland) as that's a trickier one all of its own"Mel53 has been watching one too many Hollywood films. | |||
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" Btw...America is not one country...its made up of 51 states i believe most of which have different laws...but all come under federal law .
No it is one country made up of 50 States not 51(that's the UK ).
The UK is one country made up of three states(I don't include n Ireland) as that's a trickier one all of its own
Mel53 has been watching one too many Hollywood films. "I take it you have never visited America then | |||
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" Btw...America is not one country...its made up of 51 states i believe most of which have different laws...but all come under federal law .
No it is one country made up of 50 States not 51(that's the UK ).
The UK is one country made up of three states(I don't include n Ireland) as that's a trickier one all of its own
Mel53 has been watching one too many Hollywood films.
I take it you have never visited America then "You think it has 51 states, just because there is a film called "The 51st state" it doesn't make it a fact. | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement
Sorry Doors, but your arguement does not hold water. On another thread you were complaining about traffic jams, not getting your kids into a school, not being able to get a doctors appointment. That has absolutely nothing to do with having a job arranged before they get here, and everything to do with the total number of immigrants..
That's exactly my point.... Long term infrastructure plans.
The first thing we need to work out is what's the number of immigration per year we need, you then plan your 10 ,20 infrastructure plan around that.
X number of schools,x number of doctors, trains, power grid supply, gas, roads.... Etc etc.
What we've done is have no fucking clue how many come and go, squeeze existing infrastructure to the absolute maximum, spend nothing and try to then squeeze every penny out of the immigration benefit.
It's in my opinion a crap way to do it?.
Mel just said before, it was all fine they all went home???.
That's not what I would want, I've just spent billions on infrastructure, if your building new doctors surgeries, hospitals, roads and schools the last thing I want is them all fucking off?.
.
Short term immigration, summer work, long term immigration, 5 year contacts 10 years, never going home???.
We just don't know anything and we plan shitly for it, like I said no business would do it"But that is no different to UK citizens moving around the UK. Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration. | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?"no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill? | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?"I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise. | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?
I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise."and how do you sustain a constant influx if there are no jobs? | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?
I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise.
and how do you sustain a constant influx if there are no jobs?"There are jobs and they are working in them. If they don't find a job, they leave. They have no recourse to public funds, cant access social housing, so whats your problem with them? | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?
I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise.
and how do you sustain a constant influx if there are no jobs?
There are jobs and they are working in them. If they don't find a job, they leave. They have no recourse to public funds, cant access social housing, so whats your problem with them? "are you following the thread or just trolling as usual? | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?
I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise.
and how do you sustain a constant influx if there are no jobs?"Why would they come if there were no jobs? Like many people you seem to be ofvthe opinion that people will move countries to get benefits. People who live in benefits by nature are not motivated and lack the will to go to work locally, let alone in another country. I have been an economic migrant, I went to Spain in the 1990's recession and worked there for a few years before returning to the UK. I went to work, not to doss. People who come here come to work and if there were no jobs and no opportunities they wouldn't come. | |||
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement
Sorry Doors, but your arguement does not hold water. On another thread you were complaining about traffic jams, not getting your kids into a school, not being able to get a doctors appointment. That has absolutely nothing to do with having a job arranged before they get here, and everything to do with the total number of immigrants..
That's exactly my point.... Long term infrastructure plans.
The first thing we need to work out is what's the number of immigration per year we need, you then plan your 10 ,20 infrastructure plan around that.
X number of schools,x number of doctors, trains, power grid supply, gas, roads.... Etc etc.
What we've done is have no fucking clue how many come and go, squeeze existing infrastructure to the absolute maximum, spend nothing and try to then squeeze every penny out of the immigration benefit.
It's in my opinion a crap way to do it?.
Mel just said before, it was all fine they all went home???.
That's not what I would want, I've just spent billions on infrastructure, if your building new doctors surgeries, hospitals, roads and schools the last thing I want is them all fucking off?.
.
Short term immigration, summer work, long term immigration, 5 year contacts 10 years, never going home???.
We just don't know anything and we plan shitly for it, like I said no business would do it
But that is no different to UK citizens moving around the UK.
Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.". I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level | |||
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" Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.. I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level" But there is no link between stopping or limiting immigration, and the government being better at planning is there? | |||
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" There are jobs and they are working in them. If they don't find a job, they leave. They have no recourse to public funds, cant access social housing, so whats your problem with them? are you following the thread or just trolling as usual?" No trolling, just explain what your problem is with people coming before they have secured employment. | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?
I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise.
and how do you sustain a constant influx if there are no jobs?
Why would they come if there were no jobs? ". We've just been through this entire debate with the USA... Comparable differences in state subsidies, what would happen if California gave free healthcare, state housing, 25 dollars minium wage, free school places, social security, benefits..... And the other 49 states didn't?. You'd get large scale migration to California from the other states. Now imagine it's the top 8 richest states and one of them is the small state of Connecticut, now imagine the state government of Connecticut being willfully wank at organising a piss up in a brewery, imagine that they exported all the old well paying jobs to Virginia where regulation was lax and you could do what you fucking like and pay shit coz it's a crap hole, imagine that in Connecticut with rising numbers and loose credit you just binge your way to wealth without really doing shit... I'm imagining that squeezing those humans into a nice confined space and then slowly but gradually weaning them off that drip drip drip of state subsidy I'm guessing the outcome would be a few years down the line that Connecticut would be voting out of the good ole us of a. . . Either way it won't end pretty. . The mistake the EU made was thinking they could be the next USA, they can't were nothing like each other either culturally or economically.... Just like the USA could not be the EU | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?
I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise.
and how do you sustain a constant influx if there are no jobs?
Why would they come if there were no jobs? Like many people you seem to be ofvthe opinion that people will move countries to get benefits. People who live in benefits by nature are not motivated and lack the will to go to work locally, let alone in another country.
I have been an economic migrant, I went to Spain in the 1990's recession and worked there for a few years before returning to the UK. I went to work, not to doss. People who come here come to work and if there were no jobs and no opportunities they wouldn't come."You're missing the point I'm trying to make, if there are high numbers and unknown numbers of mid term immigrants putting pressure on housing, schools and hospitals etc, so we start to spend billions to accommodate them then all of a sudden recession hits and they are gone, where does the tax come from to pay for this infrastructure? And if no new jobs are created after a recession why would they return? Nevermind have a constant influx. I'm not talking about anyone coming to claim benefits | |||
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" Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.. I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level But there is no link between stopping or limiting immigration, and the government being better at planning is there? " . Too plan needs A plan... We don't have one | |||
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" Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.. I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level But there is no link between stopping or limiting immigration, and the government being better at planning is there? . Too plan needs A plan... We don't have one" But that have nothing to do with immigration. If we closed down all the ports and airports, would a plan magically materialise? | |||
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" Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.. I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level But there is no link between stopping or limiting immigration, and the government being better at planning is there? . Too plan needs A plan... We don't have one But that have nothing to do with immigration. If we closed down all the ports and airports, would a plan magically materialise? " . No it wouldn't.... But then if we did have a plan we might not spend half the fucking day taking about immigration | |||
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... Or just a plan.
.
.
But I maintain a fucking plan is a better idea | |||
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" Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.. I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level But there is no link between stopping or limiting immigration, and the government being better at planning is there? . Too plan needs A plan... We don't have one But that have nothing to do with immigration. If we closed down all the ports and airports, would a plan magically materialise? . No it wouldn't.... But then if we did have a plan we might not spend half the fucking day taking about immigration" So you admit the two things are completely unconnected. So poor planning isn't a reason to stop or reduce immigration. | |||
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" Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.. I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level But there is no link between stopping or limiting immigration, and the government being better at planning is there? . Too plan needs A plan... We don't have one But that have nothing to do with immigration. If we closed down all the ports and airports, would a plan magically materialise? . No it wouldn't.... But then if we did have a plan we might not spend half the fucking day taking about immigration So you admit the two things are completely unconnected. So poor planning isn't a reason to stop or reduce immigration." . What??. How do I know, you've not told me the plan, how can i tell you if something's going to be good or bad until you've told me the plan?. You've just spent months drumming that into me about brexit | |||
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" Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.. I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level But there is no link between stopping or limiting immigration, and the government being better at planning is there? . Too plan needs A plan... We don't have one But that have nothing to do with immigration. If we closed down all the ports and airports, would a plan magically materialise? . No it wouldn't.... But then if we did have a plan we might not spend half the fucking day taking about immigration So you admit the two things are completely unconnected. So poor planning isn't a reason to stop or reduce immigration.. What??. How do I know, you've not told me the plan, how can i tell you if something's going to be good or bad until you've told me the plan?. You've just spent months drumming that into me about brexit" Your arguement seems to have been that the government is crap at planning infrastructure, so reduce or stop immigration. But then you conceded that even if we did stop all immigration, the government still wouldn't be any good at planning infrastructure. Therefore the two aren't connected, and stopping or reducing immigration would have no impact on the government's infrastructure planning abilities. So there is no point in stopping or reducing immigration. Correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick. | |||
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"And the English people are so bad and racist that record numbers of EU citizens are leaving their EU countries to come and live here. Any Remainers care to explain why?" Not a remain voter but
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"Why is it always them and us with you? Dont you see 'them' as people e like 'us'?" Why is it always them or us with regards to the remain or leave voters then? People,regardless of how they voted, want what they perceive to be the best deal for them and their families. And for that matter to those in need of aid. We have a massive foreign aid budget. Which should be spent on those in need. Not forgetting we are a net contributor to the EU. For now... | |||
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"Anybody who's anybody has known for ages the figures are wrong. You only have to wander round any aldi at any time of day in any small town to hear at least six or seven foreign languages being spoken(no that doesn't disturb me ).... If you go there at 5pm half the friggin shop is foreign languages, all this while the government says there's 80 thousand a year blah blah blah.
People lead normal lives, we've seen the last ten years of can't get a doctor's appointment, can't get a school place, traffic jams everywhere, trains rammed full.... We know there's more here than they tell us??.
And that's not anti immigration, it's anti this chaotic government inspired immigration fuck up, nobody knows shit about how many is here, going, working, housing, part time, full time, kids... NOBODY would run a fucking business like this, it's a right royal cock up....
If we need 600,000 a year we need 600,000 I haven't got a problem with that, but where's the fucking planning?"I agree in the main. But I do have a problem with spiraling population numbers. It's called quality of life. I don't care about upward economic growth. I care about having a sustainable population with a good quality of life. | |||
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"And the English people are so bad and racist that record numbers of EU citizens are leaving their EU countries to come and live here. Any Remainers care to explain why?" Assuming you are a Brexiter, is this concerning? Being branded by what a minority thinks? It's funny because people who are really racist do the same with race not beliefs. England is a great place to live. There are opportunities. And the British people are great, both Remainers and Brexiters. You just have to avoid the minority who are dickheads, both Remainers and Brexiters.  . I'd return to the UK in the future. | |||
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" Your complaining about poor planning, but blaming it on immigration.. I didn't put any "blame" on immigration. What I said was we plan it piss poorly and have no clue about control or numbers or how much we need don't need.... That's not blaming immigration or immigrants just piss poor management at government level But there is no link between stopping or limiting immigration, and the government being better at planning is there? . Too plan needs A plan... We don't have one But that have nothing to do with immigration. If we closed down all the ports and airports, would a plan magically materialise? . No it wouldn't.... But then if we did have a plan we might not spend half the fucking day taking about immigration So you admit the two things are completely unconnected. So poor planning isn't a reason to stop or reduce immigration.. What??. How do I know, you've not told me the plan, how can i tell you if something's going to be good or bad until you've told me the plan?. You've just spent months drumming that into me about brexit Your arguement seems to have been that the government is crap at planning infrastructure, so reduce or stop immigration. But then you conceded that even if we did stop all immigration, the government still wouldn't be any good at planning infrastructure. Therefore the two aren't connected, and stopping or reducing immigration would have no impact on the government's infrastructure planning abilities. So there is no point in stopping or reducing immigration. Correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick." . Yes no yes... Sigh, It comes down to it, do you want the state to provide stuff like healthcare, housing, benefits, trains, power, roads etc etc.. If you do you need to be able to plan your future commitments and then plan for plan B if they don't come off. Now if you don't belive in the state, if your a free market person where the market just provides everything somebody needs and is willing to pay for.... That doesn't need a plan, you can just let the system get on with controlling, housing, transport. Immigration won't matter in the slightest because everybody is in the same boat, you work, you get your stuff provided by the market with your wages!..... I'm perfectly happy with that system, I can merrily work to it.... However my preferred choice is the state providing, it takes the harshness out of the free market system and gives more stability. However the state needs to plan long term commitments, what we currently do is just wing it and when it doesn't work out, coz we've planned it shitly, well then we just borrow, rack up the debt, don't worry somebody else can pay..... You can just drag in young immigrants forever to pay it off can't you??. | |||
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"And the English people are so bad and racist that record numbers of EU citizens are leaving their EU countries to come and live here. Any Remainers care to explain why? It has been quite funny listening to how the latest immigration figures have been spun, but let me share my reading of the figures with the forum and see how others (especially the pro immigration control lobby) answer my observations. Firstly, there were some 300 and odd thousand emigrated It is safe to assume most of them moved to Portugal, Spain, France and other milder EU climates. Second, some 300 and odd thousand EU citizens moved to Briton. Therefore the net migration figure between the UK and the rest of the EU is near zero. Third, some 300 and odd thousand non EU citizens permanently moved to the UK last year, so the net migration figure is in reality predominately made up of non EU citizens and the UK government already have TOTAL control over all immigration from non EU countries so these figures can in no way be blamed on the EU, nor can the all be medical professionals coming to work in the NHS. Therefore it is my contention that migration is being used as a covert weapon by an anti EU government to give substance to the ultra right wing xenophobia driven anti EU brexit agenda. I eagerly await the comments of other forumites especially those who support leaving the EU to control and reduce immigration." Immigration of 650,000 including 284, 000 EU residents is hardly fair to the existing residents in the UK. On a simplistic basis we do not have the infrastructure to cope and it puts an enormous strain on both the health and educational services . Ironically some recent immigrants to the UK also think tbat immigration is too high. We must be a great country if so many want to live here , you many remainers still try to run the UK down. | |||
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" We must be a great country if so many want to live here , you many remainers still try to run the UK down. " Just how do Remainers try to run the country down? It is the traitorous Brexiters who are seeking to jump off a cliff into the unknown with so far nothing but additional costs (NO SAVINGS AT ALL) and into an economic future that will be much reduced because of lower immigration and all for the sake of some misplaced idea that Britain somehow was broken and needed fixing?? The Remainers are the ones that believe Britain is great and that our continued prosperity is allied to close trading relations with our near neighbours and that our place in the world is enhanced as being British and European. The negatives are with Leavers because it is they who think Britain is not great, but is broken. That is wrong, Britain is great and it is not broken and certainly does not need fixing by sticking two fingers up at our near neighbours and yet somehow expecting them to come running to us because now suddenly being outside of Europe we will have become greater than we were inside... yeh right. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated.. It would work in the EU just as well.... But the EU would need to abandon it's social security platform. Imagine if California offered free healthcare, pensions, 25 dollars an hour minimum wage, state housing, state benefits.... What do you think the people from the other states would do who didn't?" Such a system wouldn't work any where and you isn't the system that the EU has. People who come here from the EU are not entitled free healthcare, pensions, state benefits or state housing. They are entitled to minimum wage but that's only fair for everyone. I ready wonder where you get your facts from. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated. America is a fully integrated Federal system. The EU is not. The EU is a mish mash of different countries with different ideas who want to implement their own solutions to different problems. That's why the EU will never work. America is one country, the EU is not. America wants to cut immigration from outside it's country as now do many EU countries. That is irrelevant to the basis of the point I am making to "doors" and his assertion was that free movement was chaotic. Free movement exists in the US irrespective of the underlying factors and people in States and cities with exploding populations don't resent the arrivals.. Hang on I've just spent 30 minutes explaining the differences why I think it works there but not here?. I've got no problems in free movement if you want to abandon our healthcare system, social housing and benefits, it will work just like that USA. Those who work come and multiply those who don't go live in a tent and die" Why would we have to give up our healthcare, social housing and benefits to have free movement. People from the EU are not entitled to claim them, except where British Law explicitly allows them to. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated.. It would work in the EU just as well.... But the EU would need to abandon it's social security platform. Imagine if California offered free healthcare, pensions, 25 dollars an hour minimum wage, state housing, state benefits.... What do you think the people from the other states would do who didn't? Such a system wouldn't work any where and you isn't the system that the EU has. People who come here from the EU are not entitled free healthcare, pensions, state benefits or state housing. They are entitled to minimum wage but that's only fair for everyone. I ready wonder where you get your facts from." . Life, I live in the real world.... Today I fitted some heating for a nice polish couple!.... Perfectly nice people, she works at the hospital, two lovely kids, nice flat, he's got a illness and is on disability, flats paid for by the council, two kids were born in the hospital she works at, oldest just started school, speaks perfect English, youngest only polish but then he is only two ... Saw them in tesco last week, you can always tell an eastern European by they're shopping basket.... It's always full of fresh food and never a frozen pizza in sight.
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Just personal observations of course no doubt you can give me the official facts of life
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"Oh and by the way ....they all came back home once the living conditions got better over here !!!! .
You've just pointed out that you don't need the EU for movement of labour? but what you did do is know who the fuck came in and who the fuck left and where they were going to work when they got there!.
Most people aren't against immigration there against this chaotic immigration system of the free movement
Free movement of labour existed in the EEC/EC. Our immigration controls with Europe have not changed in any meaningful way since 1973. .
Well they didn't need to because half the poor countries weren't in the eec in the 70s.
Mass immigration doesn't really ever occur between relatively comparable GDPs "And it doesn't really exist now between Britain and the EU. The largest number of immigrants in the UK are from India; the fastest growing group of immigrants coming into the UK is Indians; the fasted growing immigrant community in the UK is Indian. No European country on its own even rates high enough to get a mention in the statistics. BREXIT is not going to change any of this for the better and will probably make much of it worse. | |||
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" We must be a great country if so many want to live here , you many remainers still try to run the UK down. Just how do Remainers try to run the country down? It is the traitorous Brexiters who are seeking to jump off a cliff into the unknown with so far nothing but additional costs (NO SAVINGS AT ALL) and into an economic future that will be much reduced because of lower immigration and all for the sake of some misplaced idea that Britain somehow was broken and needed fixing?? The Remainers are the ones that believe Britain is great and that our continued prosperity is allied to close trading relations with our near neighbours and that our place in the world is enhanced as being British and European. The negatives are with Leavers because it is they who think Britain is not great, but is broken. That is wrong, Britain is great and it is not broken and certainly does not need fixing by sticking two fingers up at our near neighbours and yet somehow expecting them to come running to us because now suddenly being outside of Europe we will have become greater than we were inside... yeh right." | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?
I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise.
and how do you sustain a constant influx if there are no jobs?"Is that the BREXIT/UKIP plan to solve immigration? Trash the economy by breaking away from our biggest and richest customers then, when there's no work and no money here no one will want to come. It's a novel approach but I guess it'll probably work. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated.. It would work in the EU just as well.... But the EU would need to abandon it's social security platform. Imagine if California offered free healthcare, pensions, 25 dollars an hour minimum wage, state housing, state benefits.... What do you think the people from the other states would do who didn't? Such a system wouldn't work any where and you isn't the system that the EU has. People who come here from the EU are not entitled free healthcare, pensions, state benefits or state housing. They are entitled to minimum wage but that's only fair for everyone. I ready wonder where you get your facts from.. Life, I live in the real world.... Today I fitted some heating for a nice polish couple!.... Perfectly nice people, she works at the hospital, two lovely kids, nice flat, he's got a illness and is on disability, flats paid for by the council, two kids were born in the hospital she works at, oldest just started school, speaks perfect English, youngest only polish but then he is only two ... Saw them in tesco last week, you can always tell an eastern European by they're shopping basket.... It's always full of fresh food and never a frozen pizza in sight.
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Just personal observations of course no doubt you can give me the official facts of life
"Personal, anecdotal and quiet possibly incomplete on much pertinent information. I can't really comment on it. | |||
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"I feel I should point out at this time that US infrastructure is utterly fucking shocking! So why are the local residents of the states and cities that are experiencing a population explosion not angry and agitated? They are in some ways and voted for Trump to change the system. Florida voted for Donald Trump and Donald Trump won saying he would clamp down on immigration. But not free movement of people within the United States. That is sacrosanct and fat from being an issue, it is celebrated.. It would work in the EU just as well.... But the EU would need to abandon it's social security platform. Imagine if California offered free healthcare, pensions, 25 dollars an hour minimum wage, state housing, state benefits.... What do you think the people from the other states would do who didn't? Such a system wouldn't work any where and you isn't the system that the EU has. People who come here from the EU are not entitled free healthcare, pensions, state benefits or state housing. They are entitled to minimum wage but that's only fair for everyone. I ready wonder where you get your facts from.. Life, I live in the real world.... Today I fitted some heating for a nice polish couple!.... Perfectly nice people, she works at the hospital, two lovely kids, nice flat, he's got a illness and is on disability, flats paid for by the council, two kids were born in the hospital she works at, oldest just started school, speaks perfect English, youngest only polish but then he is only two ... Saw them in tesco last week, you can always tell an eastern European by they're shopping basket.... It's always full of fresh food and never a frozen pizza in sight.
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Just personal observations of course no doubt you can give me the official facts of life
Personal, anecdotal and quiet possibly incomplete on much pertinent information. I can't really comment on it.". I didn't ask you to comment on it, you asked me how I come to things, I told you, I'm an observer of life. | |||
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"And the English people are so bad and racist that record numbers of EU citizens are leaving their EU countries to come and live here. Any Remainers care to explain why?" I can ( tho I'm a Brexiteer )
We are called Great Britain | |||
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"Floriad? Florida Just woke up, posting on my phone.
that was me not you .
But as I said, isn't the difference that if people then leaue those areas, they are still paying tax into the USA coffers, unlike people who move to the UK and then leave?
I don't follow you?
There are three types of "migrants" to the UK
Short term temporary "tourist" migrants who stay for up to two years. These people include all tourists, all students and people who make short term working plans or who come here, don't like it and return.
Mid term migrants who stay 2-7 years and return to their home country.
Long term settlers. People who move to the uk to dig roots and settle.
If anything, the short and mid term migrants should be the ones most most welcome but you are saying they are the ones at fault because we lose their tax revenues when they leave?
no, how can we properly plan and build infrastucture for the mid term migrants if we have no control over how many there will be or know how long they will stay. So we build new hospitals and schools etc to accommodate them while they are here then recession hits and they're gone. Who's left with the bill?
I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The biggest drain on this country's resources are its elderly. If the country could sustain a constant influx of mid term migrants and they all left before getting old we would be in economic paradise.
and how do you sustain a constant influx if there are no jobs?
Is that the BREXIT/UKIP plan to solve immigration? Trash the economy by breaking away from our biggest and richest customers then, when there's no work and no money here no one will want to come. It's a novel approach but I guess it'll probably work."You obviously haven't followed the thread properly. But do you think that staying in the EU means the economy would never be trashed and there would never be another recession? | |||
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