Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Politics |
| Jump to newest |  |
 | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? "Who knows? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Even if you paid more into the EU than you are now they'll still ensure you have less access. Britain are negotiating with people who believe the EU is best for European prosperity, peace and their own careers. If Britain gets a good deal the EU could come crashing down. If Britain gets a bad deal then other nations are more likely to stay in. Britains gonna get a deal so shitty no one else will want to leave." It genuinely surprises me that anyone from Eire would even try to have a balanced conversation with anyone who voted Leave. The UK has history of fucking the Irish over and this is just another example. Many Leavers don't see the Irish as financial victims of Brexit because they see the EU as an impersonal "them." As has happened many times before in history, the Irish will be victims of their bullying neighbours across the Irish Sea who act in perceived self interest whilst actually fucking over their best friends. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Even if you paid more into the EU than you are now they'll still ensure you have less access. Britain are negotiating with people who believe the EU is best for European prosperity, peace and their own careers. If Britain gets a good deal the EU could come crashing down. If Britain gets a bad deal then other nations are more likely to stay in. Britains gonna get a deal so shitty no one else will want to leave. It genuinely surprises me that anyone from Eire would even try to have a balanced conversation with anyone who voted Leave. The UK has history of fucking the Irish over and this is just another example. Many Leavers don't see the Irish as financial victims of Brexit because they see the EU as an impersonal "them." As has happened many times before in history, the Irish will be victims of their bullying neighbours across the Irish Sea who act in perceived self interest whilst actually fucking over their best friends." what a racist you are! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Even if you paid more into the EU than you are now they'll still ensure you have less access. Britain are negotiating with people who believe the EU is best for European prosperity, peace and their own careers. If Britain gets a good deal the EU could come crashing down. If Britain gets a bad deal then other nations are more likely to stay in. Britains gonna get a deal so shitty no one else will want to leave. It genuinely surprises me that anyone from Eire would even try to have a balanced conversation with anyone who voted Leave. The UK has history of fucking the Irish over and this is just another example. Many Leavers don't see the Irish as financial victims of Brexit because they see the EU as an impersonal "them." As has happened many times before in history, the Irish will be victims of their bullying neighbours across the Irish Sea who act in perceived self interest whilst actually fucking over their best friends." The EU has fucked the Irish over in the past. In case you forgot the Republic of Ireland voted against the EU in a referendum but were told by the arrogant, aloof Eurocrats in Brussels to keep voting until you give us the 'right' answer. So much for European democracy. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Today in Parliament Brexit Secretary, David Davis, MP, said that he wants to get “the best possible access for goods and services to the European market.” Which is exactly what we have now. Mr Davis added that he could be prepared for Britain to contribute to the EU budget to ensure Britain has access to the EU Single Market. Which is exactly what we do now. 17 million people voted for Britain to ‘Leave’ the EU – that is 17 million out of a population in Britain of 64 million or 26% (just over one quarter) And two of the four countries that comprise our Union of the United Kingdom – Scotland and Northern Ireland - don’t want Britain to leave the European Union at all. So, this is the Brexit plan as far as we know it: Mr Davis is going to end the best deal in order to try to get the best deal. " The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. Further more it's not government policy to carry on with payments to the EU to access the single market, it is just an option (among many options) as stated by David Davis today. Remainers keep asking for compromise to accommodate the 48% who voted Remain in the EU referendum, this option looks like a compromise but it seems Remainers are still moaning about it (and you wonder why Remainers get the nickname Remoaners, lol). As for the 26% statistic you mentioned and the UK having a population of 64 million. A good portion of that 64 million are under 18 and therefore they don't get to vote in elections. Everyone of voting age had a vote in the referendum, some voted Remain, some voted leave and some chose not to vote either way. When the votes were counted leave had more votes and won the referendum, the side with the most votes wins, that's how democracy works. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Even if you paid more into the EU than you are now they'll still ensure you have less access. Britain are negotiating with people who believe the EU is best for European prosperity, peace and their own careers. If Britain gets a good deal the EU could come crashing down. If Britain gets a bad deal then other nations are more likely to stay in. Britains gonna get a deal so shitty no one else will want to leave." The way the EU is going now it could be finished before we get chance to Brexit. The deal we have now is a shitty one because it makes EU law supreme over UK law and we have to accept free movement of people and uncontrolled immigration. I also think the EU payments Britain makes are far too high, I'd personally like to see a clean break from the EU, so we don't pay a single penny into EU coffers. If it is going to be a compromise though and we do continue paying expect it to be a lot less than we currently pay now. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? "As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us. The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us . Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us . That era is over . I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave . | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. " Ha ha ha ha ha. Thats a good one. You can leave and they'll still give you access to the single market? The single market isnt some goverment funds being moved around its private business trading internationally. So imagine they put Britain at the same rates as the US rather than the rates you get now. Britain will still import wine and beer, still import cigarettes and chocolate, cars, laptops and all the other things that are produced in Europe. Youre cost of living will go up because you'll pay the increased import tax, but you'll still buy most of it because no one gonna buy wine from Durham because it costs a pound less. No one and no groups can afford to set up an orchard large enough to supply britains apples without having significant start up costs that will push the price above established european suppliers. So the EU might take a 10% hit on its British exports. Thats tough but not terrible, the EUs a huge market of which Britain is only ~15% of Europes population. So 10% of 15% is a 1.5% hit for the market. But all those financial institutions that are not so quietly meeting lobbiests from Dublin, Frankfurt and other cities are probably going to leave because the taxes they'll have to pay to operate in the EU are huge. And it wont just be the financial centre but they'll be the first. So the EU loses part of their export market to taxes and it gains billions in taxable revenue from British companies who want to remain in the EU. And finally theres the flip side of the taxes. If Britain reduces their imports because of import duties, their exports will also go down for the exact same reason. So companies within the EU will gain business that used to go to UK companies. The EU wont miss you financially. They'll probably have a higher concentration of wealth afterwards. They were pissed because you weakened their structures and their security set up at a time when Russia is getting aggressive. Theyre pissed because you reduced the political weight of the EU. They're pissed because you want to stop freedom of movement. Hard brexit, soft brexit, the EU loses what it wants from you either way. All thats left to be decided is how much of your economy it wants to take when you go. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave . "I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for? A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it? I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions. Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about? Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for. The EU needs us more than we need them? What for? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave .
I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for?
A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it?
I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions.
Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about?
Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for.
The EU needs us more than we need them? What for?"Ask the 300,000 EU citizens who've moved here already this year. Maybe they want fish and chips | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. Ha ha ha ha ha. Thats a good one. You can leave and they'll still give you access to the single market? The single market isnt some goverment funds being moved around its private business trading internationally. So imagine they put Britain at the same rates as the US rather than the rates you get now. Britain will still import wine and beer, still import cigarettes and chocolate, cars, laptops and all the other things that are produced in Europe. Youre cost of living will go up because you'll pay the increased import tax, but you'll still buy most of it because no one gonna buy wine from Durham because it costs a pound less. No one and no groups can afford to set up an orchard large enough to supply britains apples without having significant start up costs that will push the price above established european suppliers. So the EU might take a 10% hit on its British exports. Thats tough but not terrible, the EUs a huge market of which Britain is only ~15% of Europes population. So 10% of 15% is a 1.5% hit for the market. But all those financial institutions that are not so quietly meeting lobbiests from Dublin, Frankfurt and other cities are probably going to leave because the taxes they'll have to pay to operate in the EU are huge. And it wont just be the financial centre but they'll be the first. So the EU loses part of their export market to taxes and it gains billions in taxable revenue from British companies who want to remain in the EU. And finally theres the flip side of the taxes. If Britain reduces their imports because of import duties, their exports will also go down for the exact same reason. So companies within the EU will gain business that used to go to UK companies. The EU wont miss you financially. They'll probably have a higher concentration of wealth afterwards. They were pissed because you weakened their structures and their security set up at a time when Russia is getting aggressive. Theyre pissed because you reduced the political weight of the EU. They're pissed because you want to stop freedom of movement. Hard brexit, soft brexit, the EU loses what it wants from you either way. All thats left to be decided is how much of your economy it wants to take when you go." How long before Apple moves from Ireland to the UK once Battersea is up and running? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave .
I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for?
A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it?
I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions.
Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about?
Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for.
The EU needs us more than we need them? What for?"Maybe ask the German motor industry . | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. Ha ha ha ha ha. Thats a good one. You can leave and they'll still give you access to the single market? The single market isnt some goverment funds being moved around its private business trading internationally. So imagine they put Britain at the same rates as the US rather than the rates you get now. Britain will still import wine and beer, still import cigarettes and chocolate, cars, laptops and all the other things that are produced in Europe. Youre cost of living will go up because you'll pay the increased import tax, but you'll still buy most of it because no one gonna buy wine from Durham because it costs a pound less. No one and no groups can afford to set up an orchard large enough to supply britains apples without having significant start up costs that will push the price above established european suppliers. So the EU might take a 10% hit on its British exports. Thats tough but not terrible, the EUs a huge market of which Britain is only ~15% of Europes population. So 10% of 15% is a 1.5% hit for the market. But all those financial institutions that are not so quietly meeting lobbiests from Dublin, Frankfurt and other cities are probably going to leave because the taxes they'll have to pay to operate in the EU are huge. And it wont just be the financial centre but they'll be the first. So the EU loses part of their export market to taxes and it gains billions in taxable revenue from British companies who want to remain in the EU. And finally theres the flip side of the taxes. If Britain reduces their imports because of import duties, their exports will also go down for the exact same reason. So companies within the EU will gain business that used to go to UK companies. The EU wont miss you financially. They'll probably have a higher concentration of wealth afterwards. They were pissed because you weakened their structures and their security set up at a time when Russia is getting aggressive. Theyre pissed because you reduced the political weight of the EU. They're pissed because you want to stop freedom of movement. Hard brexit, soft brexit, the EU loses what it wants from you either way. All thats left to be decided is how much of your economy it wants to take when you go. How long before Apple moves from Ireland to the UK once Battersea is up and running?" Apples moving no staff from Dublin. Its just consolidating its London staff in one place. If yourr pinning your hopes on that you dont understand how much money Apple saves by basing themselves in Ireland. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave .
I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for?
A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it?
I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions.
Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about?
Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for.
The EU needs us more than we need them? What for? Maybe ask the German motor industry . "BMW and Mercedes will still sell their cars in Britain regardless of the market situation. Theyre not selling to a price sensitive market. The british car market on the other hand is in trouble because anything like a 15% import duty on cars would seeiously hurt their export market. Not to mention that their cost of materials will increase because the UK will have import duties of their own. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. Ha ha ha ha ha. Thats a good one. You can leave and they'll still give you access to the single market? The single market isnt some goverment funds being moved around its private business trading internationally. So imagine they put Britain at the same rates as the US rather than the rates you get now. Britain will still import wine and beer, still import cigarettes and chocolate, cars, laptops and all the other things that are produced in Europe. Youre cost of living will go up because you'll pay the increased import tax, but you'll still buy most of it because no one gonna buy wine from Durham because it costs a pound less. No one and no groups can afford to set up an orchard large enough to supply britains apples without having significant start up costs that will push the price above established european suppliers. So the EU might take a 10% hit on its British exports. Thats tough but not terrible, the EUs a huge market of which Britain is only ~15% of Europes population. So 10% of 15% is a 1.5% hit for the market. But all those financial institutions that are not so quietly meeting lobbiests from Dublin, Frankfurt and other cities are probably going to leave because the taxes they'll have to pay to operate in the EU are huge. And it wont just be the financial centre but they'll be the first. So the EU loses part of their export market to taxes and it gains billions in taxable revenue from British companies who want to remain in the EU. And finally theres the flip side of the taxes. If Britain reduces their imports because of import duties, their exports will also go down for the exact same reason. So companies within the EU will gain business that used to go to UK companies. The EU wont miss you financially. They'll probably have a higher concentration of wealth afterwards. They were pissed because you weakened their structures and their security set up at a time when Russia is getting aggressive. Theyre pissed because you reduced the political weight of the EU. They're pissed because you want to stop freedom of movement. Hard brexit, soft brexit, the EU loses what it wants from you either way. All thats left to be decided is how much of your economy it wants to take when you go. How long before Apple moves from Ireland to the UK once Battersea is up and running? Apples moving no staff from Dublin. Its just consolidating its London staff in one place. If yourr pinning your hopes on that you dont understand how much money Apple saves by basing themselves in Ireland." And you don't understand how much Apple is pissed off with the EU then. It could easily save more by moving to the UK where we won't have to abidd by EU tax rules. But I'm not pinning hopes on that, it was just an example | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave .
I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for?
A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it?
I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions.
Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about?
Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for.
The EU needs us more than we need them? What for? Maybe ask the German motor industry .
BMW and Mercedes will still sell their cars in Britain regardless of the market situation. Theyre not selling to a price sensitive market.
The british car market on the other hand is in trouble because anything like a 15% import duty on cars would seeiously hurt their export market. Not to mention that their cost of materials will increase because the UK will have import duties of their own."The German motor industry are anxious to negotiate a good deal with us so I assume tbey do not agree with your sentiment nor to Nissan. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. Ha ha ha ha ha. Thats a good one. You can leave and they'll still give you access to the single market? The single market isnt some goverment funds being moved around its private business trading internationally. So imagine they put Britain at the same rates as the US rather than the rates you get now. Britain will still import wine and beer, still import cigarettes and chocolate, cars, laptops and all the other things that are produced in Europe. Youre cost of living will go up because you'll pay the increased import tax, but you'll still buy most of it because no one gonna buy wine from Durham because it costs a pound less. No one and no groups can afford to set up an orchard large enough to supply britains apples without having significant start up costs that will push the price above established european suppliers. So the EU might take a 10% hit on its British exports. Thats tough but not terrible, the EUs a huge market of which Britain is only ~15% of Europes population. So 10% of 15% is a 1.5% hit for the market. But all those financial institutions that are not so quietly meeting lobbiests from Dublin, Frankfurt and other cities are probably going to leave because the taxes they'll have to pay to operate in the EU are huge. And it wont just be the financial centre but they'll be the first. So the EU loses part of their export market to taxes and it gains billions in taxable revenue from British companies who want to remain in the EU. And finally theres the flip side of the taxes. If Britain reduces their imports because of import duties, their exports will also go down for the exact same reason. So companies within the EU will gain business that used to go to UK companies. The EU wont miss you financially. They'll probably have a higher concentration of wealth afterwards. They were pissed because you weakened their structures and their security set up at a time when Russia is getting aggressive. Theyre pissed because you reduced the political weight of the EU. They're pissed because you want to stop freedom of movement. Hard brexit, soft brexit, the EU loses what it wants from you either way. All thats left to be decided is how much of your economy it wants to take when you go. How long before Apple moves from Ireland to the UK once Battersea is up and running? Apples moving no staff from Dublin. Its just consolidating its London staff in one place. If yourr pinning your hopes on that you dont understand how much money Apple saves by basing themselves in Ireland. And you don't understand how much Apple is pissed off with the EU then. It could easily save more by moving to the UK where we won't have to abidd by EU tax rules. But I'm not pinning hopes on that, it was just an example" Pissed at the EU but not Ireland. And our corporation tax even before the sweetheart deal we gave them is still lower than what they can get in the UK. What youre missing here is that Apple funnels all their EU profits through Ireland because they can do so thanks to the common market. You actually have a worse chance of getting Apple to move to London because once brexit happens they cant funnel the eu profits to the UK without paying EU taxes on it. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave .
I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for?
A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it?
I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions.
Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about?
Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for.
The EU needs us more than we need them? What for?"As stated by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons, a £65 billion trade deficit. Those figures come from the house of commons library so no point in arguing with the figures. So you see the EU wants our trade and our custom because we are one of the EU's biggest export markets/customers. If the EU gives us a bad deal then that £65 billion trade deficit could go elsewhere in the world as we make new trade deals outside of the EU. Once we leave we are free to shop around, the EU needs to realise it is not the only market we can shop from once we leave, the world is our oyster. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. Ha ha ha ha ha. Thats a good one. You can leave and they'll still give you access to the single market? The single market isnt some goverment funds being moved around its private business trading internationally. So imagine they put Britain at the same rates as the US rather than the rates you get now. Britain will still import wine and beer, still import cigarettes and chocolate, cars, laptops and all the other things that are produced in Europe. Youre cost of living will go up because you'll pay the increased import tax, but you'll still buy most of it because no one gonna buy wine from Durham because it costs a pound less. No one and no groups can afford to set up an orchard large enough to supply britains apples without having significant start up costs that will push the price above established european suppliers. So the EU might take a 10% hit on its British exports. Thats tough but not terrible, the EUs a huge market of which Britain is only ~15% of Europes population. So 10% of 15% is a 1.5% hit for the market. But all those financial institutions that are not so quietly meeting lobbiests from Dublin, Frankfurt and other cities are probably going to leave because the taxes they'll have to pay to operate in the EU are huge. And it wont just be the financial centre but they'll be the first. So the EU loses part of their export market to taxes and it gains billions in taxable revenue from British companies who want to remain in the EU. And finally theres the flip side of the taxes. If Britain reduces their imports because of import duties, their exports will also go down for the exact same reason. So companies within the EU will gain business that used to go to UK companies. The EU wont miss you financially. They'll probably have a higher concentration of wealth afterwards. They were pissed because you weakened their structures and their security set up at a time when Russia is getting aggressive. Theyre pissed because you reduced the political weight of the EU. They're pissed because you want to stop freedom of movement. Hard brexit, soft brexit, the EU loses what it wants from you either way. All thats left to be decided is how much of your economy it wants to take when you go." You seem to be confusing access to the single market with membership of the EU. Many countries outside of the EU have access to the single market and Britain can do this once we leave the EU. Even if tariffs are imposed, those tariffs are a 2 way street. The boss of Dutch sports giant Head wrote a newspaper article pointing this out that because the UK has a massive trade deficit with the EU, even with tariffs imposed Britain will still come out on top, he knows it and it seems the German motor industry knows it as they are currently lobbying Angela Merkel (quite loudly and openly) to give Britain a favourable trade deal when we leave. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave .
I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for?
A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it?
I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions.
Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about?
Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for.
The EU needs us more than we need them? What for?
As stated by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons, a £65 billion trade deficit. Those figures come from the house of commons library so no point in arguing with the figures. So you see the EU wants our trade and our custom because we are one of the EU's biggest export markets/customers. If the EU gives us a bad deal then that £65 billion trade deficit could go elsewhere in the world as we make new trade deals outside of the EU. Once we leave we are free to shop around, the EU needs to realise it is not the only market we can shop from once we leave, the world is our oyster. "You do realise that your logic goes both ways. We can stop sourcing goods and services from Britain and get them within the EU as well. We're not reliant on anything from Britain outside of aircraft and oil. What you export to the EU happens because you compete on a level playing field with everyone in the EU. Once brexit happens and import duties come in you lose that. Sourcing from outside the EU means you still have to deal with other countries import and export duties only now youve added huge logisitcal costs on top of that. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. Ha ha ha ha ha. Thats a good one. You can leave and they'll still give you access to the single market? The single market isnt some goverment funds being moved around its private business trading internationally. So imagine they put Britain at the same rates as the US rather than the rates you get now. Britain will still import wine and beer, still import cigarettes and chocolate, cars, laptops and all the other things that are produced in Europe. Youre cost of living will go up because you'll pay the increased import tax, but you'll still buy most of it because no one gonna buy wine from Durham because it costs a pound less. No one and no groups can afford to set up an orchard large enough to supply britains apples without having significant start up costs that will push the price above established european suppliers. So the EU might take a 10% hit on its British exports. Thats tough but not terrible, the EUs a huge market of which Britain is only ~15% of Europes population. So 10% of 15% is a 1.5% hit for the market. But all those financial institutions that are not so quietly meeting lobbiests from Dublin, Frankfurt and other cities are probably going to leave because the taxes they'll have to pay to operate in the EU are huge. And it wont just be the financial centre but they'll be the first. So the EU loses part of their export market to taxes and it gains billions in taxable revenue from British companies who want to remain in the EU. And finally theres the flip side of the taxes. If Britain reduces their imports because of import duties, their exports will also go down for the exact same reason. So companies within the EU will gain business that used to go to UK companies. The EU wont miss you financially. They'll probably have a higher concentration of wealth afterwards. They were pissed because you weakened their structures and their security set up at a time when Russia is getting aggressive. Theyre pissed because you reduced the political weight of the EU. They're pissed because you want to stop freedom of movement. Hard brexit, soft brexit, the EU loses what it wants from you either way. All thats left to be decided is how much of your economy it wants to take when you go. You seem to be confusing access to the single market with membership of the EU. Many countries outside of the EU have access to the single market and Britain can do this once we leave the EU. Even if tariffs are imposed, those tariffs are a 2 way street. The boss of Dutch sports giant Head wrote a newspaper article pointing this out that because the UK has a massive trade deficit with the EU, even with tariffs imposed Britain will still come out on top, he knows it and it seems the German motor industry knows it as they are currently lobbying Angela Merkel (quite loudly and openly) to give Britain a favourable trade deal when we leave. " a couple countries negotiated a level of access below what you get as an EU member. With the UK the EU is incentivised not to give you that deal so that no other countries are tempted to leave. The worse the deal you get is the more likely the EU is to survive. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Today in Parliament Brexit Secretary, David Davis, MP, said that he wants to get “the best possible access for goods and services to the European market.” Which is exactly what we have now. Mr Davis added that he could be prepared for Britain to contribute to the EU budget to ensure Britain has access to the EU Single Market. Which is exactly what we do now. 17 million people voted for Britain to ‘Leave’ the EU – that is 17 million out of a population in Britain of 64 million or 26% (just over one quarter) And two of the four countries that comprise our Union of the United Kingdom – Scotland and Northern Ireland - don’t want Britain to leave the European Union at all. So, this is the Brexit plan as far as we know it: Mr Davis is going to end the best deal in order to try to get the best deal. " Spot on. We didn't need this ill-thought Referendum. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave .
I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for?
A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it?
I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions.
Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about?
Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for.
The EU needs us more than we need them? What for?
As stated by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons, a £65 billion trade deficit. Those figures come from the house of commons library so no point in arguing with the figures. So you see the EU wants our trade and our custom because we are one of the EU's biggest export markets/customers. If the EU gives us a bad deal then that £65 billion trade deficit could go elsewhere in the world as we make new trade deals outside of the EU. Once we leave we are free to shop around, the EU needs to realise it is not the only market we can shop from once we leave, the world is our oyster.
You do realise that your logic goes both ways. We can stop sourcing goods and services from Britain and get them within the EU as well. We're not reliant on anything from Britain outside of aircraft and oil. What you export to the EU happens because you compete on a level playing field with everyone in the EU. Once brexit happens and import duties come in you lose that.
Sourcing from outside the EU means you still have to deal with other countries import and export duties only now youve added huge logisitcal costs on top of that. "Many countries are already lining up to do free trade deals with us once we leave the EU. The uk government has also said it wants to be a champion of free trade in the world. Britain will be seeking to lower trade restrictions, lower tariffs, lower import/export duties not increase them or we will be seeking to exclude them altogether and many countries outside of the EU are also encouraging by saying they want the same with us. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current deal is not the best deal. We pay to access the European single market now but it's not the best deal possible as a member of the EU because being a member of the EU comes with many shitty strings attached. We can leave the EU and cut many of those strings while still having access to the single market. Ha ha ha ha ha. Thats a good one. You can leave and they'll still give you access to the single market? The single market isnt some goverment funds being moved around its private business trading internationally. So imagine they put Britain at the same rates as the US rather than the rates you get now. Britain will still import wine and beer, still import cigarettes and chocolate, cars, laptops and all the other things that are produced in Europe. Youre cost of living will go up because you'll pay the increased import tax, but you'll still buy most of it because no one gonna buy wine from Durham because it costs a pound less. No one and no groups can afford to set up an orchard large enough to supply britains apples without having significant start up costs that will push the price above established european suppliers. So the EU might take a 10% hit on its British exports. Thats tough but not terrible, the EUs a huge market of which Britain is only ~15% of Europes population. So 10% of 15% is a 1.5% hit for the market. But all those financial institutions that are not so quietly meeting lobbiests from Dublin, Frankfurt and other cities are probably going to leave because the taxes they'll have to pay to operate in the EU are huge. And it wont just be the financial centre but they'll be the first. So the EU loses part of their export market to taxes and it gains billions in taxable revenue from British companies who want to remain in the EU. And finally theres the flip side of the taxes. If Britain reduces their imports because of import duties, their exports will also go down for the exact same reason. So companies within the EU will gain business that used to go to UK companies. The EU wont miss you financially. They'll probably have a higher concentration of wealth afterwards. They were pissed because you weakened their structures and their security set up at a time when Russia is getting aggressive. Theyre pissed because you reduced the political weight of the EU. They're pissed because you want to stop freedom of movement. Hard brexit, soft brexit, the EU loses what it wants from you either way. All thats left to be decided is how much of your economy it wants to take when you go. You seem to be confusing access to the single market with membership of the EU. Many countries outside of the EU have access to the single market and Britain can do this once we leave the EU. Even if tariffs are imposed, those tariffs are a 2 way street. The boss of Dutch sports giant Head wrote a newspaper article pointing this out that because the UK has a massive trade deficit with the EU, even with tariffs imposed Britain will still come out on top, he knows it and it seems the German motor industry knows it as they are currently lobbying Angela Merkel (quite loudly and openly) to give Britain a favourable trade deal when we leave. a couple countries negotiated a level of access below what you get as an EU member. With the UK the EU is incentivised not to give you that deal so that no other countries are tempted to leave. The worse the deal you get is the more likely the EU is to survive." If you are trying to convince me you are barking up the wrong tree. I'd like to see a hard Brexit where we leave the EU and all its institutions, we leave the single market and we don't pay a penny to the EU. I'd prefer that we leave and go onto WTO terms with the EU than the current shitty deal we've got now as a member. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
Far too many people are prepared to let the EU dictate policies to us .
That era is over .
I prefer to listen to successfull and forward looking businesses such as Dyson , JCB Bamford and Weatherspoons who all supported leave .
I so wish someone would tell us what we have that the EU is desperate for?
A few vacuum cleaners and a fan or two? Some earth moving equipment? A pub chain? Dear gods, is that it?
I am genuinely baffled by this apparent belief that the stuff we offer, whatever it is, is so much better than can be obtained elsewhere in the world that the EU is going to give us all these concessions.
Please, please, what are these amazing goods / services / etc that you're on about?
Yes, we produce great stuff, but I don't see much that anyone would be desperate for.
The EU needs us more than we need them? What for?
As stated by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons, a £65 billion trade deficit. Those figures come from the house of commons library so no point in arguing with the figures. So you see the EU wants our trade and our custom because we are one of the EU's biggest export markets/customers. If the EU gives us a bad deal then that £65 billion trade deficit could go elsewhere in the world as we make new trade deals outside of the EU. Once we leave we are free to shop around, the EU needs to realise it is not the only market we can shop from once we leave, the world is our oyster.
You do realise that your logic goes both ways. We can stop sourcing goods and services from Britain and get them within the EU as well. We're not reliant on anything from Britain outside of aircraft and oil. What you export to the EU happens because you compete on a level playing field with everyone in the EU. Once brexit happens and import duties come in you lose that.
Sourcing from outside the EU means you still have to deal with other countries import and export duties only now youve added huge logisitcal costs on top of that.
Many countries are already lining up to do free trade deals with us once we leave the EU. The uk government has also said it wants to be a champion of free trade in the world. Britain will be seeking to lower trade restrictions, lower tariffs, lower import/export duties not increase them or we will be seeking to exclude them altogether and many countries outside of the EU are also encouraging by saying they want the same with "If countries wanted free trade theyd already have it. Nothings been stopping them so far. Import tarriffs exist because free trade can damage local business. So they put tarriffs and trade restrictions in place to make sure the local economy doesnt tank. And of course countries are lining up to sign deals, they have to. Deals take years to negotiate and youve only got 2 once you trigger article 50. And deals doesnt mean feee trade because the negotiations take place over tarriffs and restrictions. You just gave up the largest free trade block of countries in the world, something that took decades to build. Now you think youre going to somehow negotiate the same deal with other countries who are further away and still make up for the loss of whatever amount of eu trade you lose? None of the details your suggesting add up. Youre not going to create a free trade utopia with countries far away from you because they dont want it. The EU is going to hammer you in negotiations because a good deal for Britain could be the end of the EU. The EU doesnt need most of your exports because the rest of europe can supply the bulk much cheaper once import duties take effect. Youre going to lose the bulk of the finance centre and many other companies because theyre not going to hand over an extra 15% to the taxman just to stay in Britain. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The uk government has also said it wants to be a champion of free trade in the world. " The unelected PM reads from ready speaches she has no clue what she is talking about. Britain will never be a "champion" of any kind. Nor will we "lead the way" and all this sort of catch words BS. The era of the British Empire is well and trully over. EU can do without us and so can the rest of the world. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
". If you are trying to convince me you are barking up the wrong tree. I'd like to see a hard Brexit where we leave the EU and all its institutions, we leave the single market and we don't pay a penny to the EU. I'd prefer that we leave and go onto WTO terms with the EU than the current shitty deal we've got now as a member. " Thats just insanity and I cant even understand it. British suppliers will be replaced by EU ones because the import duty will make you uncompetitive thereby closing many businesses and increasing unemployment. The financial centre is already negotiating with new cities and will result in tremendous loss of revenue, jobs and suppliers who depend on them will close and others will cut staff thereby increasing unemployment. With Brexit youve just made all British exporters 15% less competitive. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
". If you are trying to convince me you are barking up the wrong tree. I'd like to see a hard Brexit where we leave the EU and all its institutions, we leave the single market and we don't pay a penny to the EU. I'd prefer that we leave and go onto WTO terms with the EU than the current shitty deal we've got now as a member. Thats just insanity and I cant even understand it. British suppliers will be replaced by EU ones because the import duty will make you uncompetitive thereby closing many businesses and increasing unemployment. The financial centre is already negotiating with new cities and will result in tremendous loss of revenue, jobs and suppliers who depend on them will close and others will cut staff thereby increasing unemployment. With Brexit youve just made all British exporters 15% less competitive." Lower value of the pound has actually increased our exports and already made us more competitive on the back of the Brexit vote. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
". If you are trying to convince me you are barking up the wrong tree. I'd like to see a hard Brexit where we leave the EU and all its institutions, we leave the single market and we don't pay a penny to the EU. I'd prefer that we leave and go onto WTO terms with the EU than the current shitty deal we've got now as a member. Thats just insanity and I cant even understand it. British suppliers will be replaced by EU ones because the import duty will make you uncompetitive thereby closing many businesses and increasing unemployment. The financial centre is already negotiating with new cities and will result in tremendous loss of revenue, jobs and suppliers who depend on them will close and others will cut staff thereby increasing unemployment. With Brexit youve just made all British exporters 15% less competitive. Lower value of the pound has actually increased our exports and already made us more competitive on the back of the Brexit vote. " Trust me. I can tell you from experience that you can't make forecasts of any description based on currency fluctuations. No foreign entity is going to sign long term contracts on the basis of a current exchange rate. Exchange rates are a double edged sword because high and low rates have both positive and detrimental effects according to where you sit. The reality is that a country needs to isolate itself from currency fluctuations by being self sufficient and unfortunately, we are a million miles away from that. Ironically, I am sat in a bar and whilst having my dinner I just watched The Trumpster speaking down the road in Cincinnati and aside from his usual sucking up to his audience he was making the point that America had to become self sufficient again. They can do that because of the size of their country but it will be difficult for the UK to do the same. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"We should take the High Ground and send the E U Our Charges to slow them to trade with us !!! " Exactly. The goverment should take a hard line with the EU and tell them free trade or no trade. I'm sure the likes of BMW, Merceded, VW/Audi etc will apply pressure to get a deal that won't cost them a fifth of their business | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The uk government has also said it wants to be a champion of free trade in the world. The unelected PM reads from ready speaches she has no clue what she is talking about. Britain will never be a "champion" of any kind. Nor will we "lead the way" and all this sort of catch words BS. The era of the British Empire is well and trully over. EU can do without us and so can the rest of the world. " It is summed up like this: We're are leaving the largest free trade market in the world so that we can become a champion of free trade! Don't we look clever! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
".Ironically, I am sat in a bar and whilst having my dinner I just watched The Trumpster speaking down the road in Cincinnati and aside from his usual sucking up to his audience he was making the point that America had to become self sufficient again. They can do that because of the size of their country but it will be difficult for the UK to do the same." It's not difficult, it's totally impossible at the current population levels. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"We should take the High Ground and send the E U Our Charges to slow them to trade with us !!! Exactly. The goverment should take a hard line with the EU and tell them free trade or no trade. I'm sure the likes of BMW, Merceded, VW/Audi etc will apply pressure to get a deal that won't cost them a fifth of their business" Really? You're actually suggesting that we should say free trade or zero, as in we don't trade at all? And you think they'd go for that? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"We should take the High Ground and send the E U Our Charges to slow them to trade with us !!! Exactly. The goverment should take a hard line with the EU and tell them free trade or no trade. I'm sure the likes of BMW, Merceded, VW/Audi etc will apply pressure to get a deal that won't cost them a fifth of their business" Yeah there'll be some companies like the german car makers that will be hit by losing the british market....but you do realise that cars are one of Britains biggest exports and that EU made cars will fill a huge amount of that gap. Not to mention you cant cut off trade anyway, the EU supplies too much of the basic necessities like food. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"We should take the High Ground and send the E U Our Charges to slow them to trade with us !!! Exactly. The goverment should take a hard line with the EU and tell them free trade or no trade. I'm sure the likes of BMW, Merceded, VW/Audi etc will apply pressure to get a deal that won't cost them a fifth of their business Really? You're actually suggesting that we should say free trade or zero, as in we don't trade at all? And you think they'd go for that?" I am not a government negotiator. The government have appointed diplomats to deal with this. I am merely suggesting that this could be a potential starting point for negotiations | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"We should take the High Ground and send the E U Our Charges to slow them to trade with us !!! Exactly. The goverment should take a hard line with the EU and tell them free trade or no trade. I'm sure the likes of BMW, Merceded, VW/Audi etc will apply pressure to get a deal that won't cost them a fifth of their business" Oh dear. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"We should take the High Ground and send the E U Our Charges to slow them to trade with us !!! Exactly. The goverment should take a hard line with the EU and tell them free trade or no trade. I'm sure the likes of BMW, Merceded, VW/Audi etc will apply pressure to get a deal that won't cost them a fifth of their business Really? You're actually suggesting that we should say free trade or zero, as in we don't trade at all? And you think they'd go for that? I am not a government negotiator. The government have appointed diplomats to deal with this. I am merely suggesting that this could be a potential starting point for negotiations" But its not a reasonable start. Ita a nonsense position to take. You are aware that when dealing with rogue states one of the worlds most powerful tools are trade sanctions. We isolate them through trade because its puts tremendous pressure on them to change their ways. So your suggested starting position is to tell all your closest trading partners to treat you like a rogue state and you think anyone is going to take that seriously? What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"We should take the High Ground and send the E U Our Charges to slow them to trade with us !!! Exactly. The goverment should take a hard line with the EU and tell them free trade or no trade. I'm sure the likes of BMW, Merceded, VW/Audi etc will apply pressure to get a deal that won't cost them a fifth of their business" It won't cost those companies a fifth of there business. Yes there will be a fall in their sales but the cost of any import/export tariffs will just passed on to the people and companies who buy them. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view." The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. " Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"The fastest growing market for BMW exports is China and other parts of the Far East.....any loss in British sales will soon be dwarfed by these fast growing alternatives." And the same for the UK. Our trade outside the EU is growing while inside it is shrinking. Partly because the EU is probably the slowest growing economy in the world | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products " Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? " You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere?" Many food stuffs.......we have become a nation where we are not satisfied with boiled beef and cabbage | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? Many food stuffs.......we have become a nation where we are not satisfied with boiled beef and cabbage" We are a nation of curry lovers. Where does that come from? And you do know that we export 80% of our lobsters to the EU? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? Many food stuffs.......we have become a nation where we are not satisfied with boiled beef and cabbage We are a nation of curry lovers. Where does that come from? And you do know that we export 80% of our lobsters to the EU?" You were talking about IMPORTS from the EU, and we IMPORT many food stuffs from the EU that we can't or can't at an economical rate grow ourselves..... Over the last 40 years the palate of Brits has moved on from staple foods. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? Many food stuffs.......we have become a nation where we are not satisfied with boiled beef and cabbage We are a nation of curry lovers. Where does that come from? And you do know that we export 80% of our lobsters to the EU? You were talking about IMPORTS from the EU, and we IMPORT many food stuffs from the EU that we can't or can't at an economical rate grow ourselves..... Over the last 40 years the palate of Brits has moved on from staple foods." Perhaps if we changed our agricultural policies then we could become a little more self-sustaining? Farmers are currently paid subsidies dictated by the EU. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere?" You are missing the point, either deliberately or not. My question isn't what do we export to the EU. Yes, thanks, I am very capable of such research and know how to reference the results so that others can evaluate the data. That's how it should be done. My question is a simple one that you haven't answered, in fact that no one else has answered: Given that we understand how precious the freedom of movement concept is to the EU, if we expext them to compromise it and to give us free trade without freedom of movement, what do we offer in return? Which of our exports is so darned good that they can't be obtained in the EU or elsewhere in the world? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? You are missing the point, either deliberately or not. My question isn't what do we export to the EU. Yes, thanks, I am very capable of such research and know how to reference the results so that others can evaluate the data. That's how it should be done. My question is a simple one that you haven't answered, in fact that no one else has answered: Given that we understand how precious the freedom of movement concept is to the EU, if we expext them to compromise it and to give us free trade without freedom of movement, what do we offer in return? Which of our exports is so darned good that they can't be obtained in the EU or elsewhere in the world? " I gave you a bloody great list of our exports that they seem to like. Now can you tell me why freedom of movement should be so intrinsic to freedom of trade? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? You are missing the point, either deliberately or not. My question isn't what do we export to the EU. Yes, thanks, I am very capable of such research and know how to reference the results so that others can evaluate the data. That's how it should be done. My question is a simple one that you haven't answered, in fact that no one else has answered: Given that we understand how precious the freedom of movement concept is to the EU, if we expext them to compromise it and to give us free trade without freedom of movement, what do we offer in return? Which of our exports is so darned good that they can't be obtained in the EU or elsewhere in the world? I gave you a bloody great list of our exports that they seem to like. Now can you tell me why freedom of movement should be so intrinsic to freedom of trade?" You're still missing the point. And it seems to be the case that the EU link free trade with freedom of movement. They don't seem to be alone, India said much the same to the PM last month. Ooops, didn't see that one coming! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Britain has lots to export to the EU, but they are doing so on an even playing field with the rest of the EU companies. Once the tariffs come in British goods become far less competitive and the financial service industry isnt going to stay in London and give up 15% of their income to import duties. So Britain currently exports a lot. But what do they do so much better than the rest of Europe that they can survive a 15 -17% increase in costs?" Exactly! I look forward to the answer.... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? You are missing the point, either deliberately or not. My question isn't what do we export to the EU. Yes, thanks, I am very capable of such research and know how to reference the results so that others can evaluate the data. That's how it should be done. My question is a simple one that you haven't answered, in fact that no one else has answered: Given that we understand how precious the freedom of movement concept is to the EU, if we expext them to compromise it and to give us free trade without freedom of movement, what do we offer in return? Which of our exports is so darned good that they can't be obtained in the EU or elsewhere in the world? I gave you a bloody great list of our exports that they seem to like. Now can you tell me why freedom of movement should be so intrinsic to freedom of trade? You're still missing the point. And it seems to be the case that the EU link free trade with freedom of movement. They don't seem to be alone, India said much the same to the PM last month. Ooops, didn't see that one coming! " Then please explain it. Trade. Freedom of movement. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? You are missing the point, either deliberately or not. My question isn't what do we export to the EU. Yes, thanks, I am very capable of such research and know how to reference the results so that others can evaluate the data. That's how it should be done. My question is a simple one that you haven't answered, in fact that no one else has answered: Given that we understand how precious the freedom of movement concept is to the EU, if we expext them to compromise it and to give us free trade without freedom of movement, what do we offer in return? Which of our exports is so darned good that they can't be obtained in the EU or elsewhere in the world? I gave you a bloody great list of our exports that they seem to like. Now can you tell me why freedom of movement should be so intrinsic to freedom of trade? You're still missing the point. And it seems to be the case that the EU link free trade with freedom of movement. They don't seem to be alone, India said much the same to the PM last month. Ooops, didn't see that one coming! Then please explain it. Trade. Freedom of movement." Well seeme pretty clear to me as explained above. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? You are missing the point, either deliberately or not. My question isn't what do we export to the EU. Yes, thanks, I am very capable of such research and know how to reference the results so that others can evaluate the data. That's how it should be done. My question is a simple one that you haven't answered, in fact that no one else has answered: Given that we understand how precious the freedom of movement concept is to the EU, if we expext them to compromise it and to give us free trade without freedom of movement, what do we offer in return? Which of our exports is so darned good that they can't be obtained in the EU or elsewhere in the world? I gave you a bloody great list of our exports that they seem to like. Now can you tell me why freedom of movement should be so intrinsic to freedom of trade? You're still missing the point. And it seems to be the case that the EU link free trade with freedom of movement. They don't seem to be alone, India said much the same to the PM last month. Ooops, didn't see that one coming! Then please explain it. Trade. Freedom of movement. Well seeme pretty clear to me as explained above." I missed that. Try again. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? "Ah another "straw clutcher"
Perhaps he is just playing the game when it comes to negotiating x | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If your paying for access, isn't that just a tariff by another name?" Yes it is, we currently pay a tariff as members of the EU, it is called the EU contribution fee (a tariff in all but name). | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"It's getting a bit of a joke to be honest. Your either in the EU or your out of the EU there's no in between, it's just a name difference were all arguing about. . . Yes theres an awful lot to do in separating the UK from the EU, probably ten years or more picking apart laws and regulations!. As far as I'm concerned I want to be either in or out but let's just decide which and go with it for fuck sake" The country already decided on June 23rd. We are going out and I agree I just want to see the government get on with it. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"The fastest growing market for BMW exports is China and other parts of the Far East.....any loss in British sales will soon be dwarfed by these fast growing alternatives." Same can be said for Jaguar/Land Rover here and any losses in the EU will be dwarfed by these fast growing alternatives. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"It's getting a bit of a joke to be honest. Your either in the EU or your out of the EU there's no in between, it's just a name difference were all arguing about. . . Yes theres an awful lot to do in separating the UK from the EU, probably ten years or more picking apart laws and regulations!. As far as I'm concerned I want to be either in or out but let's just decide which and go with it for fuck sake The country already decided on June 23rd. We are going out and I agree I just want to see the government get on with it. " Maybe thats why they are all moaning..might have to do a bit of work for their seventy odd grand a year plus expenses  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? " The EU will be more flexible on free movement of people when Renzi gets his ass kicked in the Italian referendum on Monday, Marine Le Pen wins in France and Angela Merkel gets her ass kicked in the German election in the autumn of 2017. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? The EU will be more flexible on free movement of people when Renzi gets his ass kicked in the Italian referendum on Monday, Marine Le Pen wins in France and Angela Merkel gets her ass kicked in the German election in the autumn of 2017. " Then surely you agree that Cameron called the referendum a year too early? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What Im learning from these discussions is that the people supporting the leave campaign have very little idea of how international trade works and how it effects countries and their citizens. Everything Ive seen suggested here has basically looked suicidal from a british economic point of view. The whole brexit trade position as put forward on here seems to hinge around this: Britain has some goods or services that those in the EU want so much that they'll give up cherished principles of free movement of people and capital to have them. I have repeatedly asked what these were and have had no answer. They quote Dyson and JCB (goods made outside EU already so they're biased), Wetherspoons and Nissan. In the last case we don't know what they've been given by the government if anything. At best, that's 4 companies. Yep, that's just what we need to drive free trade. I accept happily that we make good stuff, but not that we make just about anything that can't be got elsewhere in the world. Our exports (in order of value) include Fuels and oil Nuclear reactors and parts Vehicles Pharmaceuticals Electricals Precious metals and jewellery Organic chemicals Optical and surgical instruments Aircraft Plastics Beverages and spirits Chemicals Iron and steel articles Essential oils and perfume Art and antiques Printed material Clothing Rubber products Ok, I'm sure you've pulled those from somewhere (would have been nice to reference it). Now, answer the question... Which of these is so darned good that the EU will be flexible on freedom of movement for? The EU will be more flexible on free movement of people when Renzi gets his ass kicked in the Italian referendum on Monday, Marine Le Pen wins in France and Angela Merkel gets her ass kicked in the German election in the autumn of 2017. Then surely you agree that Cameron called the referendum a year too early?" Not really as the EU elite like Juncker and Tusk don't want reform or change. Brexit was the catalyst that set this snowball rolling down the hill and this snowball will now gain more momentum and grow in size all over Europe. The EU will be forced to change and Brexit was the first necessary step. If the EU doesn't change (especially on free movement of people) then it will collapse altogether. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Even if you paid more into the EU than you are now they'll still ensure you have less access. Britain are negotiating with people who believe the EU is best for European prosperity, peace and their own careers. If Britain gets a good deal the EU could come crashing down. If Britain gets a bad deal then other nations are more likely to stay in. Britains gonna get a deal so shitty no one else will want to leave. It genuinely surprises me that anyone from Eire would even try to have a balanced conversation with anyone who voted Leave. The UK has history of fucking the Irish over and this is just another example. Many Leavers don't see the Irish as financial victims of Brexit because they see the EU as an impersonal "them." As has happened many times before in history, the Irish will be victims of their bullying neighbours across the Irish Sea who act in perceived self interest whilst actually fucking over their best friends. what a racist you are!" It's hardly racist at all Speaking personally I have no ill will for colonisation efforts many years ago... No one alive now was involved so how could I! Most people apart from a few militants here agree I think Brexit is bizarre, but the leavers arguments are getting very laboured at this point... It's getting harder to see how the UK could have stronger economic fundamentals without the market.... Or having to pay for access The UK could always be like us and keep voting until you get it right lol (Aka Lisbon treaty for us... A joke for democracy) | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Even if you paid more into the EU than you are now they'll still ensure you have less access. Britain are negotiating with people who believe the EU is best for European prosperity, peace and their own careers. If Britain gets a good deal the EU could come crashing down. If Britain gets a bad deal then other nations are more likely to stay in. Britains gonna get a deal so shitty no one else will want to leave. It genuinely surprises me that anyone from Eire would even try to have a balanced conversation with anyone who voted Leave. The UK has history of fucking the Irish over and this is just another example. Many Leavers don't see the Irish as financial victims of Brexit because they see the EU as an impersonal "them." As has happened many times before in history, the Irish will be victims of their bullying neighbours across the Irish Sea who act in perceived self interest whilst actually fucking over their best friends. what a racist you are! It's hardly racist at all Speaking personally I have no ill will for colonisation efforts many years ago... No one alive now was involved so how could I! Most people apart from a few militants here agree I think Brexit is bizarre, but the leavers arguments are getting very laboured at this point... It's getting harder to see how the UK could have stronger economic fundamentals without the market.... Or having to pay for access The UK could always be like us and keep voting until you get it right lol (Aka Lisbon treaty for us... A joke for democracy)" So why are you so against the UK voting to leave? Maybe it will support change within the EU? Many who voted remain did so because they want reform in the EU. Maybe it will take a serious shock to the system to provoke reform? Certainly our PMs efforts weren't taken seriously. So what will it take to make the EU listen? Italy? France? Austria? Germany even!?? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" You are quite able to Google, as am I. Though it seems you couldn't be bothered. You asked what other things we exported other than tractors. I told you. Can I reverse the question? What imports from the EU are so damned good that we could not get elsewhere? You are missing the point, either deliberately or not. My question isn't what do we export to the EU. Yes, thanks, I am very capable of such research and know how to reference the results so that others can evaluate the data. That's how it should be done. My question is a simple one that you haven't answered, in fact that no one else has answered: Given that we understand how precious the freedom of movement concept is to the EU, if we expext them to compromise it and to give us free trade without freedom of movement, what do we offer in return? Which of our exports is so darned good that they can't be obtained in the EU or elsewhere in the world? I gave you a bloody great list of our exports that they seem to like. Now can you tell me why freedom of movement should be so intrinsic to freedom of trade? You're still missing the point. And it seems to be the case that the EU link free trade with freedom of movement. They don't seem to be alone, India said much the same to the PM last month. Ooops, didn't see that one coming! Then please explain it. Trade. Freedom of movement. Well seeme pretty clear to me as explained above. I missed that. Try again." No. Option 1: you don't get it because you're you can't get your head round it, even though it's clear as a bell. Option 2: you're being deliberately obtuse for your own reasons. Either way, it seems pretty clear to me and others and I'm bored trying to explain it. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Britain has lots to export to the EU, but they are doing so on an even playing field with the rest of the EU companies. Once the tariffs come in British goods become far less competitive and the financial service industry isnt going to stay in London and give up 15% of their income to import duties. So Britain currently exports a lot. But what do they do so much better than the rest of Europe that they can survive a 15 -17% increase in costs?" Who said that there would be any duties. ?. Why would there be. Germany has already said it wants to protect our motor industry. If out products were not the best the countries to which we currently export would not but them. In any event tariffs are simply taxes which cancel out . I have yet to see the share price of any company fall because of concerns over import taxes . This is a live real time indicator of Financial Performance | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How much is that worth then? £350 million per week? As the EU needs us more than we need tbe EU we should be able to negotiate a free trade agreement at no cost to us.
The EU were livid at our decision to leave because they are dependent on us .
"One thing's for sure - if you are ever short of a good laugh, just pop on over to the Politucs folder! It's like reading the front page of The Cloud Cuckoo Land Express. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Pat you know well that share prices are high because sterling is cheap to foreign investors and the initial drop made them a good punt " You are wasting your time. He chooses to interpret information in a way that suits his view of the world and despite being told many times what you have said and being directed to reputable websites saying the same thing he still maintains that the share price has nothing to do with the drop in sterling and that the drop in sterling had nothing to do with Brexit. Many Brexit supporters display the classic information control syndrome known as EDD (Exaggeration, Distortion and Deletion) in order to maintain a grasp on the comforting world as they know it in order to avoid the stress of dealing with something different. Indeed EDD is the very foundation on which the post truth ideology was founded because people prefer to have simple solutions that satisfy there emotional state rather than tax their view of their world. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
A few points to consider:
Like it or not, the supply chain is globalised. We really, really cannot stop the world and get off.
The UK imports a lot of components and equipment from the EU because of the specialist firms located there and nowhere else. The while world buys these things from these companies. They cannot be obtained anywhere else. We'll still buy them. We'll still buy luxury German cars.
Who wants to make deals with us that we actually want to buy stuff from? America, China? Big market for us. What do they get? We do a deal on their terms. Also remember a trade deal actually requires common rules and regulations to guarantee that foods and services are equivalent. A legal system that provides suitable redress. What does that sound like? The EU perhaps?
How long until these deals materialise? How much do we suffer in the meantime? How many companies shut down during this "short-term" pain?
Free trade means no tariffs. You think that Chinese products are cheap now? How will people's work and living conditions will be affected when we're fully exposed to competition.
So here's the original question again. How much is tariff free access to the EU actually worth? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
 | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I do hope that nobody is really cheering the prospect of openly racist political parties on mainland Europe. I also hope that nobody would cheer a referendum result that would finally bring political reform to Italy not being passed. I find it difficult to imagine hating the EU so much that anyone would wish such misfortune on so many to see it fall "It is clear to see from posts made on here, other social media outlets and the comments sections on news sites like the Mail and Express that this is exactly what a lot of people are hoping for. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Pat you know well that share prices are high because sterling is cheap to foreign investors and the initial drop made them a good punt You are wasting your time. He chooses to interpret information in a way that suits his view of the world and despite being told many times what you have said and being directed to reputable websites saying the same thing he still maintains that the share price has nothing to do with the drop in sterling and that the drop in sterling had nothing to do with Brexit. Many Brexit supporters display the classic information control syndrome known as EDD (Exaggeration, Distortion and Deletion) in order to maintain a grasp on the comforting world as they know it in order to avoid the stress of dealing with something different. Indeed EDD is the very foundation on which the post truth ideology was founded because people prefer to have simple solutions that satisfy there emotional state rather than tax their view of their world." For information on share price movement I rely on two specialist publications specialising only in shares . The information is topped up by various newspaper columns . I can only re iterate tbat share prices will have already factored in both the effect of Brexit and currency gains. The current share prices are based on the long term prospects of a company . If companies were to think that the long implications of Brexit were damaging , share prices woukd have tanked out . Much to the dissappointment of the pushers of doom and gloom share prices have performed strongly this year . I often wonder if those who are so keen to state that share prices have performed well because of currency gains actually own shares or are they just making guesses of the reasons for rising prices ?. I prefer to gain my knowledge of share price movements from specialist publications as opposed to tbose doing guess work on an internet forum. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current share prices are based on the long term prospects of a company . " Oh dear lord you really have no idea how the economy works. In no way shape or form are share prices based off the long term prospects of the company. People buy shares when they expect their value might go up, they sell when they think their value might go down. Have you ever taken part in an IPO. People buy in the morning to sell that afternoon. Nobody cares about the long term viability of the company, share prices in Yahoo jumped when people saw the writing was on the wall and the company was going to be broken up and sold piece by piece. You know one of the reasons bubbles exist? Because sometimes, as was the case in 1928 (not the most recent but certainly most well known) speculators kept buying shares in companies they knew to be worthless because they were betting they coukd sell before the price crashed. Thats what led to the wall street crash in 29. Long term prospects of a company are sometimes correllated with stock price but most often its an educated gamble on what future prices will be. Its one thing not to be familiar with these things. People have lives and jobs, its another to go round pretending you understand it and arguing against more knowledgable people on subjects you dont understand. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Who said that there would be any duties. ?. Why would there be. Germany has already said it wants to protect our motor industry. If out products were not the best the countries to which we currently export would not but them. In any event tariffs are simply taxes which cancel out . I have yet to see the share price of any company fall because of concerns over import taxes . This is a live real time indicator of Financial Performance " Of course there will be duties. Thats what the common market IS! A market with no tarriffs or restrictions for members. Germany has in NO WAY said it wants to save your motor industry. The head of the VDA (German motor industry) said that while the British market is important to them they much prefer keeping the common market and he also said that the British motor factories woukd be better served moving to Slovalia and Poland. The German government certainly dont give a shit. Some companies like BMW will publically say they value the British market because they matter to them. But if they felt THAT strongly about it then why is their own association not being pressured to say the same thing. If BMW and Mercedes cant get their own association to back the British side you think they somehow wield more influence over the German government?? Tarriffs do not cancel out the money the goverment paid to the EU. Tarriffs will apply to private companies, the EU money came from government and could be spread over a much wider population. And of course youre not the best in anything otherwise you'd have a monopoly. British companies face strong competition now and the tarriffs will make them uncompetitive. Do you think people in France are going to pay a 17% premium to buy British products over French ones? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Passionate, maybe a little angry, but you're debating the points and not getting personal. WTF?
A few points to consider:
Like it or not, the supply chain is globalised. We really, really cannot stop the world and get off.
The UK imports a lot of components and equipment from the EU because of the specialist firms located there and nowhere else. The while world buys these things from these companies. They cannot be obtained anywhere else. We'll still buy them. We'll still buy luxury German cars.
Who wants to make deals with us that we actually want to buy stuff from? America, China? Big market for us. What do they get? We do a deal on their terms. Also remember a trade deal actually requires common rules and regulations to guarantee that foods and services are equivalent. A legal system that provides suitable redress. What does that sound like? The EU perhaps?
How long until these deals materialise? How much do we suffer in the meantime? How many companies shut down during this "short-term" pain?
Free trade means no tariffs. You think that Chinese products are cheap now? How will people's work and living conditions will be affected when we're fully exposed to competition.
So here's the original question again. How much is tariff free access to the EU actually worth?"We already pay a tariff now as a full member of the EU, it's called the EU contribution fee (a tariff in all but name). | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If your paying for access, isn't that just a tariff by another name?" Aren't we paying a tariff now? Think about it, in order to get free trade with the EU we pay a 'membership' fee of around £350 million a week. Aside from Germany, many other member states pay far less, if anything at all. Doesn't sound like free trade to me | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The current share prices are based on the long term prospects of a company . Oh dear lord you really have no idea how the economy works. In no way shape or form are share prices based off the long term prospects of the company. People buy shares when they expect their value might go up, they sell when they think their value might go down. Have you ever taken part in an IPO. People buy in the morning to sell that afternoon. Nobody cares about the long term viability of the company, share prices in Yahoo jumped when people saw the writing was on the wall and the company was going to be broken up and sold piece by piece. You know one of the reasons bubbles exist? Because sometimes, as was the case in 1928 (not the most recent but certainly most well known) speculators kept buying shares in companies they knew to be worthless because they were betting they coukd sell before the price crashed. Thats what led to the wall street crash in 29. Long term prospects of a company are sometimes correllated with stock price but most often its an educated gamble on what future prices will be. Its one thing not to be familiar with these things. People have lives and jobs, its another to go round pretending you understand it and arguing against more knowledgable people on subjects you dont understand." Did it ever occur to you that you might be the one who is less knowlegable or has no idea how the economy works ( these are terms that I never use but you chose to use then in your post ). Shares have returned a stunning performance over the past 50 years. Most investors are long term and are not speculators. It may dissappoint you but Brexit has had no impact on the long term performance of the stock market. I prefer to make my assessment based on what is happening in the real world . | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"It may dissappoint you but Brexit has had no impact on the long term performance of the stock market. " How can you say that? The long term effects of brexit are still in the future, because we are still in the EU! We have not even triggered article 50 so you cant even claim to have an indicator based on that! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"It may dissappoint you but Brexit has had no impact on the long term performance of the stock market. How can you say that? The long term effects of brexit are still in the future, because we are still in the EU! We have not even triggered article 50 so you cant even claim to have an indicator based on that!" The stock market factors in future events into share price valuations . Investors have not shown any long term concerns about the impact of Brexit . This will include pension funds for which a lot of us will be dependent on on retirement . | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"The only companies that make long term investments are insurance companies and pension funds. However, long term investments do not move share prices because they are - long term and strategic. Short term movements are all speculative. In fact, the long-term investors "rent out" their shares for this purpose. Nobody knows the outcome of Brexit negotiations so will not be making any strategic decisions until then. On this basis any short term economic predictions of Brexit Armageddon were silly. However, by the same token, any predictions of an economic gain or even keeping the economy as it is was and is a matter of faith. We have gone from a position of economic certainty, albeit from within a far from perfect organisation, to one of complete uncertainty. Recent investment figures were based on existing capital spending plans which were already committed. We have to see how the uncertainty. Consumer spending is based on sentiment rather than logic, so again in this short period, there's nothing to draw conclusions from. It's fine to base a decision on hope and faith. I'm not deriding that. Sometimes it's necessary, but please don't claim fact. The UK contribution to the EU is not a tariff by any name. It is NOT levied on companies trading with each other. It does NOT affect the cost of their products in Europe. In addition I'm not sure people really understand how the return on regional development and science and technology research works from Europe. The UK is disproportionately strong in this area attracting international talent with the money that is allocated back. This would have to be replaced by UK tax payers, but now instead of key Europe an research in specific areas happening here exclusively, a competitor will be set up within the EU. Competition works in business, not big ticket fundamental research as the scale of these things is regional if not global and out of reach of nation states smaller than the USA or China. The UK is also the home of a number of European agency headquarters such as the pharmaceutical and financial regulators. Investment will, to some extent, follow the regulator in the long term. Either prices will rise due to tariffs or they'll fall from free trade deals. Price rises will put pressure on standards of living and working conditions as companies will try to recoup costs by trying to hold down one of their biggest cost - wages and limited working hours. Price falls will also put pressure on UK company costs if we do des with lower wage economies like China. We cannot compete at that price point without accepting those standards of living. The UK cannot go back to its position in the world in the 30s or 50s when in reality most people's lives were significantly worse. Following membership of the EEC when the UK was an absolute basket case it has reinvented itself into a country that punches way,way above its weight. This was done by amplifying it's strengths through disproportionately strong influence in the EU, one of the wealthiest trading blocks on the planet." basket case? The UK was the worlds 5th biggest economy before we joined the EEC so no change there. And how many times has the UK been in recession since we joined the EEC? Even so, I'm not saying it was a bad thing, it's what it became - the EU, that I object to | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Even if you paid more into the EU than you are now they'll still ensure you have less access. Britain are negotiating with people who believe the EU is best for European prosperity, peace and their own careers. If Britain gets a good deal the EU could come crashing down. If Britain gets a bad deal then other nations are more likely to stay in. Britains gonna get a deal so shitty no one else will want to leave. It genuinely surprises me that anyone from Eire would even try to have a balanced conversation with anyone who voted Leave. The UK has history of fucking the Irish over and this is just another example. Many Leavers don't see the Irish as financial victims of Brexit because they see the EU as an impersonal "them." As has happened many times before in history, the Irish will be victims of their bullying neighbours across the Irish Sea who act in perceived self interest whilst actually fucking over their best friends. The EU has fucked the Irish over in the past. In case you forgot the Republic of Ireland voted against the EU in a referendum but were told by the arrogant, aloof Eurocrats in Brussels to keep voting until you give us the 'right' answer. So much for European democracy. " You need to brush up on your facts. Irish were asked to vote on something, we rejected it, then we were asked to vote on the the same thing but with different terms and conditions, and we accepted it. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Did it ever occur to you that you might be the one who is less knowlegable or has no idea how the economy works ( these are terms that I never use but you chose to use then in your post ). Shares have returned a stunning performance over the past 50 years. Most investors are long term and are not speculators. It may dissappoint you but Brexit has had no impact on the long term performance of the stock market. I prefer to make my assessment based on what is happening in the real world . " Well based on the fact that Ive studied economics and have done business with stockbrokers I think I know more than the average joe, not nearly as much as some, but above average. And since I know what youre saying to be untrue its very safe to assume I know more than you on this particular topic. Shares have been among the best performing investments since forever. You want a good steady return and index funds are a great way to go and that is what the pension funds largely do. http://www.wsj.com/articles/wall-street-adjusts-to-the-new-trading-normal-1401910990 That article refers to how traders buy and sell 70% of all their stocks within a year. Brexit is 2 years away at least. 2 years is not long term and investors and traders dont care about long term. They care about making money. Shocking I know, imagine a world where wall street are focusing purely on making a profit before anything else. Its barely been 6 months since Brexit and its at least two years away. I know you heard someone on the tv say that Brexit is priced into share prices and that made you feel all warm and fuzzy and safe inside so you chose to believe it but like most of your beliefs on this subject theyre based on nonsense. You know why the experts said Brexit was bad? Because they spend all day every day studying this to get the best results and know better than anyone else. Youre either not bright enough to understand the topic at hand or just refusing to even look at what is being very patiently and very carefully explained to you. Ill try this one more time in case you have a sudden epiphany and realise that instead of lobbing back counter arguments where you can and ignoring points where you cant that you might actually consider these points. 1. Stock markets don't care about long term viability of they can profit in the short term 2. Stock markets arent always indicative of a strong future economy. In fact crashes are always preceded by strong markets 3. The common market means no tarriffs and no trade caps. Leaving means you lose this. 4. In order to prevent other countries from leaving the EU will skull fuck you on the terms of the deal. They will give you a deal so bad that no one else will want to leave and if you don't like it then you can cut off trade altogether and sink your economy. 5. The EU will survive just fine without Britains trade. Britain will not survive without us. 6. Your financial centre arent staying in London and paying a 17% import duty just so they can stay in London. The reason theyre headquartered in London and not New York is to be EU based. Those companies, those jobs are gone. 7. The motor industry will leave in droves as will many other companies because they can simply split into a small company that sells in the UK and the bigger company that serves the bigger market in the EU. 8. All those companies that vastly reduce their staff will cut down their spending with local suppliers and many will go out of business. 9. Your unemployment is going to shoot up because of this. Your social payments are going to increase and you'll have lost all that taxable revenue that came from Europe and lost a sizeable portion of your export market. 10. EU will lose a large chunk of your market and that will suck. But we'll also be able to take over a large chunk of your export market. And by taking your financial centre, large parts of your motor industry and others our wealth will increase, our taxable income will increase and all those extra jobs means unemployment will decrease. 11. You do have options outside the EU and good luck to you with that because you still have to deal with tarriffs there and youve got huge logistical costs because theyre so far away. And we also have access to those markets and when we negotiate with them we offer a marketplace many times bigger than yours. Who do you think will get the better deal? Let me guess, you will because your British and that makes you intrinsically better, profits be damned, costs be damned British is best for some unknown reason. I realise this ended up being a long post and probably far outlived your attention span and that as thin skinned as leavers are you'll probably cry about my tone. But maybe you'll actually look over that list and try and apply logic to the situation instead of fantasy. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Did it ever occur to you that you might be the one who is less knowlegable or has no idea how the economy works ( these are terms that I never use but you chose to use then in your post ). Shares have returned a stunning performance over the past 50 years. Most investors are long term and are not speculators. It may dissappoint you but Brexit has had no impact on the long term performance of the stock market. I prefer to make my assessment based on what is happening in the real world . Well based on the fact that Ive studied economics and have done business with stockbrokers I think I know more than the average joe, not nearly as much as some, but above average. And since I know what youre saying to be untrue its very safe to assume I know more than you on this particular topic. Shares have been among the best performing investments since forever. You want a good steady return and index funds are a great way to go and that is what the pension funds largely do. http://www.wsj.com/articles/wall-street-adjusts-to-the-new-trading-normal-1401910990 That article refers to how traders buy and sell 70% of all their stocks within a year. Brexit is 2 years away at least. 2 years is not long term and investors and traders dont care about long term. They care about making money. Shocking I know, imagine a world where wall street are focusing purely on making a profit before anything else. Its barely been 6 months since Brexit and its at least two years away. I know you heard someone on the tv say that Brexit is priced into share prices and that made you feel all warm and fuzzy and safe inside so you chose to believe it but like most of your beliefs on this subject theyre based on nonsense. You know why the experts said Brexit was bad? Because they spend all day every day studying this to get the best results and know better than anyone else. Youre either not bright enough to understand the topic at hand or just refusing to even look at what is being very patiently and very carefully explained to you. Ill try this one more time in case you have a sudden epiphany and realise that instead of lobbing back counter arguments where you can and ignoring points where you cant that you might actually consider these points. 1. Stock markets don't care about long term viability of they can profit in the short term 2. Stock markets arent always indicative of a strong future economy. In fact crashes are always preceded by strong markets 3. The common market means no tarriffs and no trade caps. Leaving means you lose this. 4. In order to prevent other countries from leaving the EU will skull fuck you on the terms of the deal. They will give you a deal so bad that no one else will want to leave and if you don't like it then you can cut off trade altogether and sink your economy. 5. The EU will survive just fine without Britains trade. Britain will not survive without us. 6. Your financial centre arent staying in London and paying a 17% import duty just so they can stay in London. The reason theyre headquartered in London and not New York is to be EU based. Those companies, those jobs are gone. 7. The motor industry will leave in droves as will many other companies because they can simply split into a small company that sells in the UK and the bigger company that serves the bigger market in the EU. 8. All those companies that vastly reduce their staff will cut down their spending with local suppliers and many will go out of business. 9. Your unemployment is going to shoot up because of this. Your social payments are going to increase and you'll have lost all that taxable revenue that came from Europe and lost a sizeable portion of your export market. 10. EU will lose a large chunk of your market and that will suck. But we'll also be able to take over a large chunk of your export market. And by taking your financial centre, large parts of your motor industry and others our wealth will increase, our taxable income will increase and all those extra jobs means unemployment will decrease. 11. You do have options outside the EU and good luck to you with that because you still have to deal with tarriffs there and youve got huge logistical costs because theyre so far away. And we also have access to those markets and when we negotiate with them we offer a marketplace many times bigger than yours. Who do you think will get the better deal? Let me guess, you will because your British and that makes you intrinsically better, profits be damned, costs be damned British is best for some unknown reason. I realise this ended up being a long post and probably far outlived your attention span and that as thin skinned as leavers are you'll probably cry about my tone. But maybe you'll actually look over that list and try and apply logic to the situation instead of fantasy." Yourself, the people running the EU and other member states must be over the moon that the UK is leaving then, yes? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Did it ever occur to you that you might be the one who is less knowlegable or has no idea how the economy works ( these are terms that I never use but you chose to use then in your post ). Shares have returned a stunning performance over the past 50 years. Most investors are long term and are not speculators. It may dissappoint you but Brexit has had no impact on the long term performance of the stock market. I prefer to make my assessment based on what is happening in the real world . Well based on the fact that Ive studied economics and have done business with stockbrokers I think I know more than the average joe, not nearly as much as some, but above average. And since I know what youre saying to be untrue its very safe to assume I know more than you on this particular topic. Shares have been among the best performing investments since forever. You want a good steady return and index funds are a great way to go and that is what the pension funds largely do. http://www.wsj.com/articles/wall-street-adjusts-to-the-new-trading-normal-1401910990 That article refers to how traders buy and sell 70% of all their stocks within a year. Brexit is 2 years away at least. 2 years is not long term and investors and traders dont care about long term. They care about making money. Shocking I know, imagine a world where wall street are focusing purely on making a profit before anything else. Its barely been 6 months since Brexit and its at least two years away. I know you heard someone on the tv say that Brexit is priced into share prices and that made you feel all warm and fuzzy and safe inside so you chose to believe it but like most of your beliefs on this subject theyre based on nonsense. You know why the experts said Brexit was bad? Because they spend all day every day studying this to get the best results and know better than anyone else. Youre either not bright enough to understand the topic at hand or just refusing to even look at what is being very patiently and very carefully explained to you. Ill try this one more time in case you have a sudden epiphany and realise that instead of lobbing back counter arguments where you can and ignoring points where you cant that you might actually consider these points. 1. Stock markets don't care about long term viability of they can profit in the short term 2. Stock markets arent always indicative of a strong future economy. In fact crashes are always preceded by strong markets 3. The common market means no tarriffs and no trade caps. Leaving means you lose this. 4. In order to prevent other countries from leaving the EU will skull fuck you on the terms of the deal. They will give you a deal so bad that no one else will want to leave and if you don't like it then you can cut off trade altogether and sink your economy. 5. The EU will survive just fine without Britains trade. Britain will not survive without us. 6. Your financial centre arent staying in London and paying a 17% import duty just so they can stay in London. The reason theyre headquartered in London and not New York is to be EU based. Those companies, those jobs are gone. 7. The motor industry will leave in droves as will many other companies because they can simply split into a small company that sells in the UK and the bigger company that serves the bigger market in the EU. 8. All those companies that vastly reduce their staff will cut down their spending with local suppliers and many will go out of business. 9. Your unemployment is going to shoot up because of this. Your social payments are going to increase and you'll have lost all that taxable revenue that came from Europe and lost a sizeable portion of your export market. 10. EU will lose a large chunk of your market and that will suck. But we'll also be able to take over a large chunk of your export market. And by taking your financial centre, large parts of your motor industry and others our wealth will increase, our taxable income will increase and all those extra jobs means unemployment will decrease. 11. You do have options outside the EU and good luck to you with that because you still have to deal with tarriffs there and youve got huge logistical costs because theyre so far away. And we also have access to those markets and when we negotiate with them we offer a marketplace many times bigger than yours. Who do you think will get the better deal? Let me guess, you will because your British and that makes you intrinsically better, profits be damned, costs be damned British is best for some unknown reason. I realise this ended up being a long post and probably far outlived your attention span and that as thin skinned as leavers are you'll probably cry about my tone. But maybe you'll actually look over that list and try and apply logic to the situation instead of fantasy." Interesting as this post is taking a negative view on life can become a self fulfilling prophecy. People who hold shares for a short period of time are simply gamblers . I prefer to do my analysis over a fifty year period . I cannot see many Financial centres going abroad and having to pay higher wage costs . It would simply not make sense to do so. You refer to the experts and state that because they spend every day studying events they know more . I would not place too much cobfidence in experts as no one can predict the future . The immediate recession that they predicted after Brexit failed to materialise . As tbe EU need us more than we need the EU we have little to worry about . However the EU might be concerned because we pay more money in rhan we pay out . | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"basket case? The UK was the worlds 5th biggest economy before we joined the EEC so no change there. And how many times has the UK been in recession since we joined the EEC? Even so, I'm not saying it was a bad thing, it's what it became - the EU, that I object to Only objecting to one thing in that list? I'm sure I've read all sorts of things about power shortages, pollution, strikes and requests for funding from the IMF. The size of an economy died not indicate how well it serves it's people. Economic cycles occur because people are greedy and then get scared when they realise that they're overcommited. Membership of any cooperative doesn't make anyone immune from that. That was not even mentioned anyway. If you've decided that the trade-off of EU membership is acceptable then that's your subjective judgement. However, there is no factual discussion to be had on there being an economic benefit to leaving. Just sentiment. Fullback.org "In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.5 billion" "About 44% of UK exports in goods and services went to other countries in the EU in 2015—£220 billion out of £510 billion total exports." That's the actual arithmetic. Trade with the EU is now constant because the market is saturated and the population is spectacularly wealthy compared to the the rest of the planet even if it doesn't feel like it to many. However, the rest of world is growing wealthier so there is opportunity to sell to them so as a proportion we will sell less to the EU. The EU is our domestic market now, or was. It contained to maintain your domestic market. The UK spends on education, infrastructure, law, defence, health etc, etc to maintain our domestic market. We do the same with the EU. Is there waste? Yes, but also with our national.and local governments. Don't forget also part of the process of rich countries contributing more is top literally give it to the poorer ones to invest it in their infrastructure and industries so that they get richer and can buy more of our stuff. Don't just look down at the numbers. Look up and look far and wide "thats the idea 
look further than the EU | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Yourself, the people running the EU and other member states must be over the moon that the UK is leaving then, yes?" Did you know that in 1997 Russia produced a plan to extend their influence over the world and while largely ignored at the time its interesting to look back on it now and see that one of the first steps was to take back ukraine, help stoke racial tensions in America and try and push them to the far right politically and to seperate the UK from EU. Politically we're both weaker seperate. Defensively we're both weaker apart. People who've emigrated from the UK and EU citizens emigrating to the UK both face uncertain futures. Economically we'll probably come out ahead but in the other ways we're both coming out weaker. So no, Russian aggression is worrying and we're all more vulnerable as seperate entities. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
""thats the idea look further than the EU" Really? This is what you took from.that? I'm not actually trying to win an argument here. I'm trying to understand the other case. Please give some objective, measurable benefits of Brexit. There are no trade deals signed. There is no market to replace the EU that will definitely open up. There is no replacement for research funding or regional development other than if replaced by the UK or negotiated on a case by case and therefore less efficient basis. In addition to all of this the single biggest factor that means that the majority of the population have not benefited from globalisation is not immigration or membership of the EU. It is the increased scale, power and influence of international companies that allows them to contribute less to the populations that they get their profits.from in both wages and tax and increasing income differentials. The UK on its own will categorically be in a weaker position to exercise any control as we will be so desperate to retain them. This has already happened with Nissan. How does the UK population win from Brexit?" if you're really trying to understand the other case there is plenty of research you can do, anything I say here won't convince you. Anyway, it's saturday and I'm off to the pub | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Interesting as this post is taking a negative view on life can become a self fulfilling prophecy. People who hold shares for a short period of time are simply gamblers . I prefer to do my analysis over a fifty year period . I cannot see many Financial centres going abroad and having to pay higher wage costs . It would simply not make sense to do so. You refer to the experts and state that because they spend every day studying events they know more . I would not place too much cobfidence in experts as no one can predict the future . The immediate recession that they predicted after Brexit failed to materialise . As tbe EU need us more than we need the EU we have little to worry about . However the EU might be concerned because we pay more money in rhan we pay out . " For one thing the 5 hundred year trend is very positive for shared. Why you think the last 50 years is anything out of the ordinary is baffling. Your comment on wages shows how little you know about what youre talking about. The UK has the 4th highest wages in the EU. Every country thats lobbying for the financial centre has lower wages than the UK. Every single one. https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015 Youre basing your opinion on absolute nonsense that you seemingly pull out of thin air. Not to mention completely ignoring everything that doesnt suit you. So just to sum up, I made 11 points as to why youre fucked and the best you could come back with was that it was negative, that you prefer to do analysis over 50 years on a subject youve clearly done no analysis on and have very little understanding of. A completely wrong point about wages being lower in the UK when theyre higher. A laughable claim that you know more than experts because...no particular reason. And finally a baseless idea that you're needed by the EU more than we need you despite the fact its been shown repeatedly that the facts dont back that up. There really should be some sort of intelligence test administered to the British before they vote. Then we wouldnt have to deal with inane opinions based on wishes and dreams. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Interesting as this post is taking a negative view on life can become a self fulfilling prophecy. People who hold shares for a short period of time are simply gamblers . I prefer to do my analysis over a fifty year period . I cannot see many Financial centres going abroad and having to pay higher wage costs . It would simply not make sense to do so. You refer to the experts and state that because they spend every day studying events they know more . I would not place too much cobfidence in experts as no one can predict the future . The immediate recession that they predicted after Brexit failed to materialise . As tbe EU need us more than we need the EU we have little to worry about . However the EU might be concerned because we pay more money in rhan we pay out . For one thing the 5 hundred year trend is very positive for shared. Why you think the last 50 years is anything out of the ordinary is baffling. Your comment on wages shows how little you know about what youre talking about. The UK has the 4th highest wages in the EU. Every country thats lobbying for the financial centre has lower wages than the UK. Every single one. https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015 Youre basing your opinion on absolute nonsense that you seemingly pull out of thin air. Not to mention completely ignoring everything that doesnt suit you. So just to sum up, I made 11 points as to why youre fucked and the best you could come back with was that it was negative, that you prefer to do analysis over 50 years on a subject youve clearly done no analysis on and have very little understanding of. A completely wrong point about wages being lower in the UK when theyre higher. A laughable claim that you know more than experts because...no particular reason. And finally a baseless idea that you're needed by the EU more than we need you despite the fact its been shown repeatedly that the facts dont back that up. There really should be some sort of intelligence test administered to the British before they vote. Then we wouldnt have to deal with inane opinions based on wishes and dreams." Luckily there is no need for an intelligence test. The majority voted to leave. If the experts are so informed and intelligent , why were they unable to predict the leave result . Maybe they are not as quite as intelligent as they like to think Wishing to fail can become a self fulfilling prophecy and many remainers seem to want the Uk to suffer . As it is my own money I will not be paying to much attention to the so called experts. I have usually ignored negative advice and ploughed on regardless. To date it has not done me any harm and I have no regrets about ignoring experts. In life you are an architect of your own destiny . The important tbing to remember is that nothing in life stands still and you have to be constantly evaluating what we do. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Recent events have brought me round to the idea that some people are too stupid or better I'll informed of complicated things to be allowed a vote.... As contemptuous and disgusting as that idea can be... There is a glimmer of truth in it " Everyone is entitled to a vote just because some people don't see things the same as you does not mean they are stupid or ill informed. Every household in the country got a leaflet telling them exactly what they were voting for so nobody can say they did,nt know. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Interesting as this post is taking a negative view on life can become a self fulfilling prophecy. People who hold shares for a short period of time are simply gamblers . I prefer to do my analysis over a fifty year period . I cannot see many Financial centres going abroad and having to pay higher wage costs . It would simply not make sense to do so. You refer to the experts and state that because they spend every day studying events they know more . I would not place too much cobfidence in experts as no one can predict the future . The immediate recession that they predicted after Brexit failed to materialise . As tbe EU need us more than we need the EU we have little to worry about . However the EU might be concerned because we pay more money in rhan we pay out . For one thing the 5 hundred year trend is very positive for shared. Why you think the last 50 years is anything out of the ordinary is baffling. Your comment on wages shows how little you know about what youre talking about. The UK has the 4th highest wages in the EU. Every country thats lobbying for the financial centre has lower wages than the UK. Every single one. https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015 Youre basing your opinion on absolute nonsense that you seemingly pull out of thin air. Not to mention completely ignoring everything that doesnt suit you. So just to sum up, I made 11 points as to why youre fucked and the best you could come back with was that it was negative, that you prefer to do analysis over 50 years on a subject youve clearly done no analysis on and have very little understanding of. A completely wrong point about wages being lower in the UK when theyre higher. A laughable claim that you know more than experts because...no particular reason. And finally a baseless idea that you're needed by the EU more than we need you despite the fact its been shown repeatedly that the facts dont back that up. There really should be some sort of intelligence test administered to the British before they vote. Then we wouldnt have to deal with inane opinions based on wishes and dreams." I would hope that the intelligent jest remark is a joke . Luckily I always accepted that while people may have a different view , I have ever questioned their intelligence . Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. I prefer to believe in democracy . | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"For everybody here, lack of understanding does not imperial of intelligence or malign intent. I don't think that anyone holds their opinion for reasons other than they think that it will do the best by the UK. However it's only possible to form an opinion based on the information available or that which you choose to assess. That's where "experts" come in. They tend to read more than me and have more experience in their chosen field. I tend to trust experts like doctors to make me better, civil engineers to keep buildings up and pilots to keep planes in the air. Economics is harder. Much harder because at the heart of current thinking is an assumption that markets and by extension people, are rational. They and we are not. However, we can only make judgements.plan based on the data available. Yes I have done research on "the internet". I've also read economic papers and looked at the primary data. That's where I've drawn my conclusions from. The balance of information indicates A significant downside to Brexit. Any upside is speculative based on trade negotiations etc. The only reasonably coherent economic argument for an improvement on living standards is to unilaterally remove all tariffs so that we can get the cheapest (quality unknown) goods from everywhere in the world. What does that do to domestic companies? Apparently they become more competitive - if they survive. "Common sense" and instinct which is what is left if you don't like the data works if you have experience of a situation. Brexit is an unknown. No country has ever chosen to take itself out of a major trading block. Ever. More fool them or more fool us? If we stay in the EU our world will probably look much the same as it does now with some political and economic peaks and troughs in between. We don't really find out for another 25 years or so. If we do live in a land of milk and honey then I'll look a bit foolish. Never mind. If it does go wrong the is that fine too?" Experts? Dear gods man, you believe experts? That's your whole argument shot down in one word, don't you realise that everything that is wrong in the world is due to experts? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Interesting as this post is taking a negative view on life can become a self fulfilling prophecy. People who hold shares for a short period of time are simply gamblers . I prefer to do my analysis over a fifty year period . I cannot see many Financial centres going abroad and having to pay higher wage costs . It would simply not make sense to do so. You refer to the experts and state that because they spend every day studying events they know more . I would not place too much cobfidence in experts as no one can predict the future . The immediate recession that they predicted after Brexit failed to materialise . As tbe EU need us more than we need the EU we have little to worry about . However the EU might be concerned because we pay more money in rhan we pay out . For one thing the 5 hundred year trend is very positive for shared. Why you think the last 50 years is anything out of the ordinary is baffling. Your comment on wages shows how little you know about what youre talking about. The UK has the 4th highest wages in the EU. Every country thats lobbying for the financial centre has lower wages than the UK. Every single one. https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015 Youre basing your opinion on absolute nonsense that you seemingly pull out of thin air. Not to mention completely ignoring everything that doesnt suit you. So just to sum up, I made 11 points as to why youre fucked and the best you could come back with was that it was negative, that you prefer to do analysis over 50 years on a subject youve clearly done no analysis on and have very little understanding of. A completely wrong point about wages being lower in the UK when theyre higher. A laughable claim that you know more than experts because...no particular reason. And finally a baseless idea that you're needed by the EU more than we need you despite the fact its been shown repeatedly that the facts dont back that up. There really should be some sort of intelligence test administered to the British before they vote. Then we wouldnt have to deal with inane opinions based on wishes and dreams. I would hope that the intelligent jest remark is a joke . Luckily I always accepted that while people may have a different view , I have ever questioned their intelligence . Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. I prefer to believe in democracy . " Whilst I stand with you on that everyone should be allowed to vote regardless. It is not undemocratic to say that people should have to take a test prior to voting. E.g, you want to vote, study hard and you get your vote. You want to go to uni, study hard and you'll get to uni. You want a better job or promotion, work hard and dedicate time and you'll get a better job or promotion. I believe that the form of democracy that we practice was no well liked by the greek philosopher Socrates, nor our British War hero/leader in the darkest hour, Winston Churchill. I'm not saying it's right but when people who are part of the cement that hold up our the western society, which we often take for granted, held such opinions, they do command authority and an influence of ideas. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Oh a leaflet....a firm grounding in European politics and economic theory "You really are wasting your time with some of these people...tbh you may as well talk to the wall...you probably get more sense from it... They saying goes i think...cant see the wood for the tree's  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Whilst I stand with you on that everyone should be allowed to vote regardless. It is not undemocratic to say that people should have to take a test prior to voting. E.g, you want to vote, study hard and you get your vote. You want to go to uni, study hard and you'll get to uni. You want a better job or promotion, work hard and dedicate time and you'll get a better job or promotion. I believe that the form of democracy that we practice was no well liked by the greek philosopher Socrates, nor our British War hero/leader in the darkest hour, Winston Churchill. I'm not saying it's right but when people who are part of the cement that hold up our the western society, which we often take for granted, held such opinions, they do command authority and an influence of ideas." Ah , but you're ingoring the perceived view in society the every individual's opinion is equally valid. This can be true; for example I like coffee and am no fan of tea, if your opinion is the opposite then that woukd be equally valid, no problem. However, if my opinion is that evolution by natural selection is correct and yours is that intelligent design is correct then, frankly, you're wrong. Why is your opinion valid in the first case and not in the second? It's that nasty, tricky, pesky word: evidence. So important yet so easy to ignore when it doesn't suit what you want to believe. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. " Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest." It's like my points about free trade. No brexit person answers them either. Because they can't. As I said before... we're going to be 'champions of free trade' and in order to be this we've just decided to leave the world's largest free trade bloc. Clever, very clever! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. It's like my points about free trade. No brexit person answers them either. Because they can't. As I said before... we're going to be 'champions of free trade' and in order to be this we've just decided to leave the world's largest free trade bloc. Clever, very clever!" And Remainers are not able to explain why freedom of movement is so pivotal to (allegedly) tariff-free trade. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. It's like my points about free trade. No brexit person answers them either. Because they can't. As I said before... we're going to be 'champions of free trade' and in order to be this we've just decided to leave the world's largest free trade bloc. Clever, very clever! And Remainers are not able to explain why freedom of movement is so pivotal to (allegedly) tariff-free trade." Except we have, time and again! It is, as you know, as cherished principle of the EU. So we'd exepct them to give up on it to allow us free trade, which seems unlikely. And India is also in on it, demanding visa relaxations for free trade when May was out there a few weeks ago. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Oh a leaflet....a firm grounding in European politics and economic theory "Those leaflets being referred to cost £9 million of UK taxpayers money. Put together by David Cameron, the government and the Remain campaign during the EU referendum. Are you suggesting that the leaflets in question were full of rubbish and therefore, Cameron, the government and the Remain campaign were talking rubbish in that leaflet? That appears to be what you are suggesting if you are dismissing the leaflet. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. It's like my points about free trade. No brexit person answers them either. Because they can't. As I said before... we're going to be 'champions of free trade' and in order to be this we've just decided to leave the world's largest free trade bloc. Clever, very clever! And Remainers are not able to explain why freedom of movement is so pivotal to (allegedly) tariff-free trade. Except we have, time and again! It is, as you know, as cherished principle of the EU. So we'd exepct them to give up on it to allow us free trade, which seems unlikely. And India is also in on it, demanding visa relaxations for free trade when May was out there a few weeks ago." No other trade block in the world insists on free movement of people as a stipulation of being a member. It is only the EU than insists on this. Also India is not suggesting free movement of people as part of any trade deal. Altering conditions to visa's are entirely different to the Eu free movement of people principle. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Oh a leaflet....a firm grounding in European politics and economic theory
Those leaflets being referred to cost £9 million of UK taxpayers money. Put together by David Cameron, the government and the Remain campaign during the EU referendum. Are you suggesting that the leaflets in question were full of rubbish and therefore, Cameron, the government and the Remain campaign were talking rubbish in that leaflet? That appears to be what you are suggesting if you are dismissing the leaflet. "Everything was rubbish from both sides....how on earth could any of them put a valid argument up against leaving or remaining when they never actually gave us the facts....one side was plucking numbers out the air...its been shown now that its going to cost us much much more the other side was saying we would save this invest it here...it all turned out to be bollox...we were fed bullshit...it depended how you voted in who's bullshit you believed more | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Interesting as this post is taking a negative view on life can become a self fulfilling prophecy. People who hold shares for a short period of time are simply gamblers . I prefer to do my analysis over a fifty year period . I cannot see many Financial centres going abroad and having to pay higher wage costs . It would simply not make sense to do so. You refer to the experts and state that because they spend every day studying events they know more . I would not place too much cobfidence in experts as no one can predict the future . The immediate recession that they predicted after Brexit failed to materialise . As tbe EU need us more than we need the EU we have little to worry about . However the EU might be concerned because we pay more money in rhan we pay out . For one thing the 5 hundred year trend is very positive for shared. Why you think the last 50 years is anything out of the ordinary is baffling. Your comment on wages shows how little you know about what youre talking about. The UK has the 4th highest wages in the EU. Every country thats lobbying for the financial centre has lower wages than the UK. Every single one. https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015 Youre basing your opinion on absolute nonsense that you seemingly pull out of thin air. Not to mention completely ignoring everything that doesnt suit you. So just to sum up, I made 11 points as to why youre fucked and the best you could come back with was that it was negative, that you prefer to do analysis over 50 years on a subject youve clearly done no analysis on and have very little understanding of. A completely wrong point about wages being lower in the UK when theyre higher. A laughable claim that you know more than experts because...no particular reason. And finally a baseless idea that you're needed by the EU more than we need you despite the fact its been shown repeatedly that the facts dont back that up. There really should be some sort of intelligence test administered to the British before they vote. Then we wouldnt have to deal with inane opinions based on wishes and dreams. Luckily there is no need for an intelligence test. The majority voted to leave. If the experts are so informed and intelligent , why were they unable to predict the leave result . Maybe they are not as quite as intelligent as they like to think Wishing to fail can become a self fulfilling prophecy and many remainers seem to want the Uk to suffer . As it is my own money I will not be paying to much attention to the so called experts. I have usually ignored negative advice and ploughed on regardless. To date it has not done me any harm and I have no regrets about ignoring experts. In life you are an architect of your own destiny . The important tbing to remember is that nothing in life stands still and you have to be constantly evaluating what we do. " Polling experts said Remain would win the EU referendum and put Remain 10 points ahead of Leave on the morning of the vote. I chose to ignore the experts and placed a bet on Leave winning. Leave won and I am financially better off as a result. Polling experts said Hillary Clinton would definitely win the US Presidential election. I chose to ignore the experts and put a bet on Trump winning, and I am now financially better off as a result. I think it's clear who the fools are on this thread placing their faith and belief in what the experts tell them as they follow the experts like brainwashed lemmings. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. It's like my points about free trade. No brexit person answers them either. Because they can't. As I said before... we're going to be 'champions of free trade' and in order to be this we've just decided to leave the world's largest free trade bloc. Clever, very clever! And Remainers are not able to explain why freedom of movement is so pivotal to (allegedly) tariff-free trade. Except we have, time and again! It is, as you know, as cherished principle of the EU. So we'd exepct them to give up on it to allow us free trade, which seems unlikely. And India is also in on it, demanding visa relaxations for free trade when May was out there a few weeks ago." It is indeed a cherished principle of the EU. And, no, you haven't explained why it is pivotal to free trade. We can have a common market without it. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It is indeed a cherished principle of the EU. And, no, you haven't explained why it is pivotal to free trade. We can have a common market without it." The EU believes that freedom of movement is one of the things that makes us closer as nations which decreases the possibility of war and increases the security of the group as a whole. That is the EUs aim. In order to keep countries in the EU they have the common market which gives all sorts of wonderfull benefits. The EU doesnt want non members to have access to the market because if they get that then they dont get the increased security, political capital, lasting peace etc. Yes theyve allowed a couple small nations have semi member status but thats just to draw them in to full member status down the road. To give you an analogy the uk buys a car from EU car dealers every year. They agree a price and which model car and the transaction is complete. Now the UK wants the car for free. Thats as likely to happen as if you went to a car dealer yourself and demanded a free car. Primarily the EU is there to promote the security, understanding and partnerships with other EU countries. Without that,and Brexit means you take that away, then we're not interested in giving you the benefits. The mistake brexiters make is thinking the eu gives the tiniest fuck about the uks participation in the common market compared to the sociopolitical aims that the eu is trying to achieve. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Whilst I stand with you on that everyone should be allowed to vote regardless. It is not undemocratic to say that people should have to take a test prior to voting. E.g, you want to vote, study hard and you get your vote. You want to go to uni, study hard and you'll get to uni. You want a better job or promotion, work hard and dedicate time and you'll get a better job or promotion. I believe that the form of democracy that we practice was no well liked by the greek philosopher Socrates, nor our British War hero/leader in the darkest hour, Winston Churchill. I'm not saying it's right but when people who are part of the cement that hold up our the western society, which we often take for granted, held such opinions, they do command authority and an influence of ideas. Ah , but you're ingoring the perceived view in society the every individual's opinion is equally valid. This can be true; for example I like coffee and am no fan of tea, if your opinion is the opposite then that woukd be equally valid, no problem. However, if my opinion is that evolution by natural selection is correct and yours is that intelligent design is correct then, frankly, you're wrong. Why is your opinion valid in the first case and not in the second? It's that nasty, tricky, pesky word: evidence. So important yet so easy to ignore when it doesn't suit what you want to believe." I actually agree with everything you say. The sad thing is the other part of me wants everyone in society to have a say and to be heard. But it doesn't half annoy me when people vote on their 'gut', or their 'feelings', or emotions, or the charisma of someone...I'd rather everyone vote on rationality and empirical evidence. But hey, that would require listening to experts or those experienced in working within their field... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It is indeed a cherished principle of the EU. And, no, you haven't explained why it is pivotal to free trade. We can have a common market without it. The EU believes that freedom of movement is one of the things that makes us closer as nations which decreases the possibility of war and increases the security of the group as a whole. That is the EUs aim. In order to keep countries in the EU they have the common market which gives all sorts of wonderfull benefits. The EU doesnt want non members to have access to the market because if they get that then they dont get the increased security, political capital, lasting peace etc. Yes theyve allowed a couple small nations have semi member status but thats just to draw them in to full member status down the road. To give you an analogy the uk buys a car from EU car dealers every year. They agree a price and which model car and the transaction is complete. Now the UK wants the car for free. Thats as likely to happen as if you went to a car dealer yourself and demanded a free car. Primarily the EU is there to promote the security, understanding and partnerships with other EU countries. Without that,and Brexit means you take that away, then we're not interested in giving you the benefits. The mistake brexiters make is thinking the eu gives the tiniest fuck about the uks participation in the common market compared to the sociopolitical aims that the eu is trying to achieve." And it is the sociopolitical aims of the EU that stick in many people's craws. How can one overriding political system cater for so many cultures? (It doesn't by the way. The French don't give a fuck for instance). And at least I have finally got agreement that freedom of movement is not pivotal to freedom of trade. It was a long time coming. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It is indeed a cherished principle of the EU. And, no, you haven't explained why it is pivotal to free trade. We can have a common market without it. The EU believes that freedom of movement is one of the things that makes us closer as nations which decreases the possibility of war and increases the security of the group as a whole. That is the EUs aim. In order to keep countries in the EU they have the common market which gives all sorts of wonderfull benefits. The EU doesnt want non members to have access to the market because if they get that then they dont get the increased security, political capital, lasting peace etc. Yes theyve allowed a couple small nations have semi member status but thats just to draw them in to full member status down the road. To give you an analogy the uk buys a car from EU car dealers every year. They agree a price and which model car and the transaction is complete. Now the UK wants the car for free. Thats as likely to happen as if you went to a car dealer yourself and demanded a free car. Primarily the EU is there to promote the security, understanding and partnerships with other EU countries. Without that,and Brexit means you take that away, then we're not interested in giving you the benefits. The mistake brexiters make is thinking the eu gives the tiniest fuck about the uks participation in the common market compared to the sociopolitical aims that the eu is trying to achieve. And it is the sociopolitical aims of the EU that stick in many people's craws. How can one overriding political system cater for so many cultures? (It doesn't by the way. The French don't give a fuck for instance). And at least I have finally got agreement that freedom of movement is not pivotal to freedom of trade. It was a long time coming." Well yes and I dont enjoy paying for a car. Id rather not and just get the car for free but thats not the world we live in and the EU isnt going to let you in to the common market when brexit is working against their goals. The issue isnt whether or not freedom of movement is pivotal to free trade. Thats irrelevant. The EU just isnt going to give you access without it and thats whats important to the issue of brexit. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It is indeed a cherished principle of the EU. And, no, you haven't explained why it is pivotal to free trade. We can have a common market without it. The EU believes that freedom of movement is one of the things that makes us closer as nations which decreases the possibility of war and increases the security of the group as a whole. That is the EUs aim. In order to keep countries in the EU they have the common market which gives all sorts of wonderfull benefits. The EU doesnt want non members to have access to the market because if they get that then they dont get the increased security, political capital, lasting peace etc. Yes theyve allowed a couple small nations have semi member status but thats just to draw them in to full member status down the road. To give you an analogy the uk buys a car from EU car dealers every year. They agree a price and which model car and the transaction is complete. Now the UK wants the car for free. Thats as likely to happen as if you went to a car dealer yourself and demanded a free car. Primarily the EU is there to promote the security, understanding and partnerships with other EU countries. Without that,and Brexit means you take that away, then we're not interested in giving you the benefits. The mistake brexiters make is thinking the eu gives the tiniest fuck about the uks participation in the common market compared to the sociopolitical aims that the eu is trying to achieve. And it is the sociopolitical aims of the EU that stick in many people's craws. How can one overriding political system cater for so many cultures? (It doesn't by the way. The French don't give a fuck for instance). And at least I have finally got agreement that freedom of movement is not pivotal to freedom of trade. It was a long time coming. Well yes and I dont enjoy paying for a car. Id rather not and just get the car for free but thats not the world we live in and the EU isnt going to let you in to the common market when brexit is working against their goals. The issue isnt whether or not freedom of movement is pivotal to free trade. Thats irrelevant. The EU just isnt going to give you access without it and thats whats important to the issue of brexit." Ah, well. Countries vote for the governments that represent them. They don't vote for an overriding political body to control them. I guess that is why the majority of UK voters said fook off. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Oh a leaflet....a firm grounding in European politics and economic theory
Those leaflets being referred to cost £9 million of UK taxpayers money. Put together by David Cameron, the government and the Remain campaign during the EU referendum. Are you suggesting that the leaflets in question were full of rubbish and therefore, Cameron, the government and the Remain campaign were talking rubbish in that leaflet? That appears to be what you are suggesting if you are dismissing the leaflet. "I'm not getting caught up in the tit for tat battles you lot seem to love. I don't care about the political figures. I'm just commenting on the outcome which to any one reasonable is evidence that the current form of democracy is not working very well. I'm talking principles and big ideas. Not he said, she said pointless bitching | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest." I looked at all your points and am at a loss to understand how they will have any long term negative impact on the Uk economy . Your points might have some validity if we did not have strong leaders who will be able to negotiate good terms. As we pay more into the EU than we take out , it is their loss , not ours . Such is democracy in the EU that they do not want other countries to hold referundums . A clear case of the truth hurting . We are the third most important member of the EU. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. I looked at all your points and am at a loss to understand how they will have any long term negative impact on the Uk economy . Your points might have some validity if we did not have strong leaders who will be able to negotiate good terms. As we pay more into the EU than we take out , it is their loss , not ours . Such is democracy in the EU that they do not want other countries to hold referundums . A clear case of the truth hurting . We are the third most important member of the EU. " Ok I give up. Youre a lost cause. Doesnt matter how good your leaders are when you have no leverage. Theres no negotiator skiller enough to make me trade my house for €1000. And thats not far off what Brexit negotiators have to do. Without the sociopolitical cooperation the EU was formed for theres little benefit to the EU in keeping you as anything other than a trading partner on the level of India, USA, Mexico or Australia. You just dont have any leverage as has been explained repeatedly to you. You pay more in than you get AND you get all the benefits of the common market. So you get some money back and benefits for what you pay. Youre important to the EU insofar as you are a big player on the world political stage and a key defensive part of the EU. But you took that away to go it alone so now youre of little use to use. No use basically. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" I looked at all your points and am at a loss to understand how they will have any long term negative impact on the Uk economy . Your points might have some validity if we did not have strong leaders who will be able to negotiate good terms. " Crying with laughter over this one Pat! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. I looked at all your points and am at a loss to understand how they will have any long term negative impact on the Uk economy . Your points might have some validity if we did not have strong leaders who will be able to negotiate good terms. As we pay more into the EU than we take out , it is their loss , not ours . Such is democracy in the EU that they do not want other countries to hold referundums . A clear case of the truth hurting . We are the third most important member of the EU. Ok I give up. Youre a lost cause. Doesnt matter how good your leaders are when you have no leverage. Theres no negotiator skiller enough to make me trade my house for €1000. And thats not far off what Brexit negotiators have to do. Without the sociopolitical cooperation the EU was formed for theres little benefit to the EU in keeping you as anything other than a trading partner on the level of India, USA, Mexico or Australia. You just dont have any leverage as has been explained repeatedly to you. You pay more in than you get AND you get all the benefits of the common market. So you get some money back and benefits for what you pay. Youre important to the EU insofar as you are a big player on the world political stage and a key defensive part of the EU. But you took that away to go it alone so now youre of little use to use. No use basically." Thats exactly what we want though, to trade with the EU and nothing more. We don't want political union with the EU, and we don't want monetary union with the EU either, thats why we never adopted the Euro and we kept the pound sterling. The EU is now crumbling before our eyes and it is because it went down the political union path. It should have just stuck to being a simple common market for trade and nothing more. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. I looked at all your points and am at a loss to understand how they will have any long term negative impact on the Uk economy . Your points might have some validity if we did not have strong leaders who will be able to negotiate good terms. As we pay more into the EU than we take out , it is their loss , not ours . Such is democracy in the EU that they do not want other countries to hold referundums . A clear case of the truth hurting . We are the third most important member of the EU. Ok I give up. Youre a lost cause. Doesnt matter how good your leaders are when you have no leverage. Theres no negotiator skiller enough to make me trade my house for €1000. And thats not far off what Brexit negotiators have to do. Without the sociopolitical cooperation the EU was formed for theres little benefit to the EU in keeping you as anything other than a trading partner on the level of India, USA, Mexico or Australia. You just dont have any leverage as has been explained repeatedly to you. You pay more in than you get AND you get all the benefits of the common market. So you get some money back and benefits for what you pay. Youre important to the EU insofar as you are a big player on the world political stage and a key defensive part of the EU. But you took that away to go it alone so now youre of little use to use. No use basically. Thats exactly what we want though, to trade with the EU and nothing more. We don't want political union with the EU, and we don't want monetary union with the EU either, thats why we never adopted the Euro and we kept the pound sterling. The EU is now crumbling before our eyes and it is because it went down the political union path. It should have just stuck to being a simple common market for trade and nothing more." | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Maybe those who are questioning the voters intelligence are scraping the bottom of the barrel and have no valid points to make or are unable to accept that not everyone agrèes with them. Except I made 11 points above which show why Brexit means economic trouble for the UK. Points that you werent able to refute except for one point about wages being higher in the EU. Which was incorrect. Its the Brexiters that cant seem to show any benefit to the UKs economy by leaving. Look theres clearly no economic benefit. On the couple of occassions you've tried to argue there are youve been easily proven wrong. Just say that youre happy to blow up the economy, send unemployment rocketing and inflicting another recession because you read the daily mail too much and thought that immigrants were as scary as they made them out to be. You'll feel better being honest. I looked at all your points and am at a loss to understand how they will have any long term negative impact on the Uk economy . Your points might have some validity if we did not have strong leaders who will be able to negotiate good terms. As we pay more into the EU than we take out , it is their loss , not ours . Such is democracy in the EU that they do not want other countries to hold referundums . A clear case of the truth hurting . We are the third most important member of the EU. Ok I give up. Youre a lost cause. Doesnt matter how good your leaders are when you have no leverage. Theres no negotiator skiller enough to make me trade my house for €1000. And thats not far off what Brexit negotiators have to do. Without the sociopolitical cooperation the EU was formed for theres little benefit to the EU in keeping you as anything other than a trading partner on the level of India, USA, Mexico or Australia. You just dont have any leverage as has been explained repeatedly to you. You pay more in than you get AND you get all the benefits of the common market. So you get some money back and benefits for what you pay. Youre important to the EU insofar as you are a big player on the world political stage and a key defensive part of the EU. But you took that away to go it alone so now youre of little use to use. No use basically. Thats exactly what we want though, to trade with the EU and nothing more. We don't want political union with the EU, and we don't want monetary union with the EU either, thats why we never adopted the Euro and we kept the pound sterling. The EU is now crumbling before our eyes and it is because it went down the political union path. It should have just stuck to being a simple common market for trade and nothing more." Excellent summary .   | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). " We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. " Jumping the gun, aren't you? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. Jumping the gun, aren't you? " I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future." no, you stated it as fact | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. no, you stated it as fact" You are an pedant. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future." Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics." Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it." no you wouldn't. But you can't give evidence until after the fact anyway can you? The UK will thrive financially outside the EU but a persons/countries' wealth should not be measured solely in monetary terms anyway should it? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it. no you wouldn't. But you can't give evidence until after the fact anyway can you? The UK will thrive financially outside the EU but a persons/countries' wealth should not be measured solely in monetary terms anyway should it?" I am always happy to read evidence to the contrary of my opinion, how else would one come to a balanced view point? I have given evidence of existing expenditure, earmarked future expenditure and expected expenditure from the Department for Exiting the EU. It's clear to see that you don't believe we will be better off financially, as you say wealth shouldn't be measured in monetary terms. I'm sorry to tell you that wealth is indeed measured in monetary terms. There are plenty of other things that aren't measured in monetary terms (happiness, well-being etc.) but wealth certainly is measured in monetary terms (as possessions of value). So I have produced evidence for my belief that we won't see any savings from leaving the EU, do you have any evidence to support yours? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. You Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it." Keep believing the experts that you like to believe. You know, the ones that back your theories. Evidence? You do know that experts are thin on the ground where economics are involved? It is not an evidence based art. Crystal balls. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it. no you wouldn't. But you can't give evidence until after the fact anyway can you? The UK will thrive financially outside the EU but a persons/countries' wealth should not be measured solely in monetary terms anyway should it? I am always happy to read evidence to the contrary of my opinion, how else would one come to a balanced view point? I have given evidence of existing expenditure, earmarked future expenditure and expected expenditure from the Department for Exiting the EU. It's clear to see that you don't believe we will be better off financially, as you say wealth shouldn't be measured in monetary terms. I'm sorry to tell you that wealth is indeed measured in monetary terms. There are plenty of other things that aren't measured in monetary terms (happiness, well-being etc.) but wealth certainly is measured in monetary terms (as possessions of value). So I have produced evidence for my belief that we won't see any savings from leaving the EU, do you have any evidence to support yours?" you haven't supplied any evidence at all. Earmarked and expected is not evidence | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. You Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it. Keep believing the experts that you like to believe. You know, the ones that back your theories. Evidence? You do know that experts are thin on the ground where economics are involved? It is not an evidence based art. Crystal balls." £70bn has ALREADY BEEN SPENT! It's not looking at a crystal ball, its called reading the papers! Another £22bn in fiscal policy, again, no crystal ball, its written in the budget! The government have ALREADY made that spending COMMITMENT! Can you understand that now? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"We should take the High Ground and send the E U Our Charges to slow them to trade with us !!! " Exactly. They sell more to us than we do to them....any tariffs would cost them more than it would us. Being part of the single market has damaged our overall trade with Europe...which is less % now than it was before we joined. We don't want to be part of it...just access to...same as every other country in the world from Peru to Bhutan has and all without paying a bean. Either way the EU hierarchy have already said....no such thing as a soft Brecht. Just simply in or out! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. You Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it. Keep believing the experts that you like to believe. You know, the ones that back your theories. Evidence? You do know that experts are thin on the ground where economics are involved? It is not an evidence based art. Crystal balls. £70bn has ALREADY BEEN SPENT! It's not looking at a crystal ball, its called reading the papers! Another £22bn in fiscal policy, again, no crystal ball, its written in the budget! The government have ALREADY made that spending COMMITMENT! Can you understand that now? " We haven't spent £70 billion at all, you don't understand QE do you? And what budget doesn't have a fiscal policy and spending commitment? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. You Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it. Keep believing the experts that you like to believe. You know, the ones that back your theories. Evidence? You do know that experts are thin on the ground where economics are involved? It is not an evidence based art. Crystal balls. £70bn has ALREADY BEEN SPENT! It's not looking at a crystal ball, its called reading the papers! Another £22bn in fiscal policy, again, no crystal ball, its written in the budget! The government have ALREADY made that spending COMMITMENT! Can you understand that now? " You fail to understand commitments. You fail to understand "expert" opinion. In fact, you are so one-centic, that you fail to understand anything about our desire to leave the EU. It is not the end of the world. Just the start of something different. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. You Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it. Keep believing the experts that you like to believe. You know, the ones that back your theories. Evidence? You do know that experts are thin on the ground where economics are involved? It is not an evidence based art. Crystal balls. £70bn has ALREADY BEEN SPENT! It's not looking at a crystal ball, its called reading the papers! Another £22bn in fiscal policy, again, no crystal ball, its written in the budget! The government have ALREADY made that spending COMMITMENT! Can you understand that now? You fail to understand commitments. You fail to understand "expert" opinion. In fact, you are so one-centic, that you fail to understand anything about our desire to leave the EU. It is not the end of the world. Just the start of something different. " How is the £92bn mentioned above expert “opinion” as you call it? I understand leaving the EU is the start of something different, it is the start of the UK being poorer and having less influence in the world. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If what I have been reading is true we will barely be able to afford the divorce settlement, we will not be able to afford the extra maintenance settlement to have access to the kids (sorry single market). We are never going to see a penny of the savings the Leave campaign promised. You Jumping the gun, aren't you? I'm making a prediction about what will happen in the future. Ah, OK. Crystal balls are of limited value. As are many of your beloved "experts" in the field of economics. Fine, you keep on beLeaving it's all going to be fine, it's strange, I haven't seen any sign of £350m for the NHS yet, we have already spent £70bn on monetary policy measures, plus the chancellor is expecting to spend an additional £22bn in fiscal policy measures by the end of parliament. David Davis' own special adviser (he's on Your side) says that leaving the customs union will create a permanent lose of between 1%-1.2% of GDP every year which equates to a loss of £27.92bn every single year to the treasury at least up to 2030 (again, his prediction). So that equates to just shy of £400bn, and that doesn't include any further fiscal or monetary policy measures, or the divorce bill which had been rumoured to be £50bn. So like I said, I dont we are ever going to see a penny in savings. I am always interested in hearing the other side, so have you got any evidence to support your assumption that we will see savings from leaving the EU? If so, I would be more than happy to read it. Keep believing the experts that you like to believe. You know, the ones that back your theories. Evidence? You do know that experts are thin on the ground where economics are involved? It is not an evidence based art. Crystal balls. £70bn has ALREADY BEEN SPENT! It's not looking at a crystal ball, its called reading the papers! Another £22bn in fiscal policy, again, no crystal ball, its written in the budget! The government have ALREADY made that spending COMMITMENT! Can you understand that now? You fail to understand commitments. You fail to understand "expert" opinion. In fact, you are so one-centic, that you fail to understand anything about our desire to leave the EU. It is not the end of the world. Just the start of something different. How is the £92bn mentioned above expert “opinion” as you call it? I understand leaving the EU is the start of something different, it is the start of the UK being poorer and having less influence in the world." Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land?" It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. " And because it is mentioned on a thread on a swinging site you ascribe to it? You are so enamoured with experts. You do understand that economic experts are a bit artistic? That school children fare better than fund managers in predicting returns on the stockmarket? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. And because it is mentioned on a thread on a swinging site you ascribe to it? You are so enamoured with experts. You do understand that economic experts are a bit artistic? That school children fare better than fund managers in predicting returns on the stockmarket?" You seem to be struggling to understand. This isn't about predicting what will happen, this has already happened. The fact that you don't even know that and are struggling to comprehend that even when its been pointed out multiple times to you shows a deep seated misunderstanding of the issues at hand. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. And because it is mentioned on a thread on a swinging site you ascribe to it? You are so enamoured with experts. You do understand that economic experts are a bit artistic? That school children fare better than fund managers in predicting returns on the stockmarket? You seem to be struggling to understand. This isn't about predicting what will happen, this has already happened. The fact that you don't even know that and are struggling to comprehend that even when its been pointed out multiple times to you shows a deep seated misunderstanding of the issues at hand. " Well, I did go three weeks back into this thread and couldn't see any justification for your figures but that was no great surprise. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. And because it is mentioned on a thread on a swinging site you ascribe to it? You are so enamoured with experts. You do understand that economic experts are a bit artistic? That school children fare better than fund managers in predicting returns on the stockmarket? You seem to be struggling to understand. This isn't about predicting what will happen, this has already happened. The fact that you don't even know that and are struggling to comprehend that even when its been pointed out multiple times to you shows a deep seated misunderstanding of the issues at hand. Well, I did go three weeks back into this thread and couldn't see any justification for your figures but that was no great surprise." So you are trying to tell me you are completely ignorant of the £60bn of quantitative easing plus a further £10bn of monetary policy measures announced by the bank of England since the referendum? You never heard about or read about that huge news story? You didn't read any of the multiple threads on it on this forum? Even CandM mentioned it above, perhaps you don't believe them either? I assume you must also be ignorant of the Autumn statement, the first budget by the new chancellor, the first budget since the referendum. You didn't hear about that or read about that? Or did you just happen to miss the extra £22bn of borrowing required as a result of brexit? Seriously if you missed those two events, you really don't pay much attention to politics. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. And because it is mentioned on a thread on a swinging site you ascribe to it? You are so enamoured with experts. You do understand that economic experts are a bit artistic? That school children fare better than fund managers in predicting returns on the stockmarket? You seem to be struggling to understand. This isn't about predicting what will happen, this has already happened. The fact that you don't even know that and are struggling to comprehend that even when its been pointed out multiple times to you shows a deep seated misunderstanding of the issues at hand. Well, I did go three weeks back into this thread and couldn't see any justification for your figures but that was no great surprise. So you are trying to tell me you are completely ignorant of the £60bn of quantitative easing plus a further £10bn of monetary policy measures announced by the bank of England since the referendum? You never heard about or read about that huge news story? You didn't read any of the multiple threads on it on this forum? Even CandM mentioned it above, perhaps you don't believe them either? I assume you must also be ignorant of the Autumn statement, the first budget by the new chancellor, the first budget since the referendum. You didn't hear about that or read about that? Or did you just happen to miss the extra £22bn of borrowing required as a result of brexit? Seriously if you missed those two events, you really don't pay much attention to politics." Have you read up on quantitative easing in the EU? The bail outs that are required to save Italy? The issues with Greece? If not, I suggest that you have not been keeping up with politics. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. And because it is mentioned on a thread on a swinging site you ascribe to it? You are so enamoured with experts. You do understand that economic experts are a bit artistic? That school children fare better than fund managers in predicting returns on the stockmarket? You seem to be struggling to understand. This isn't about predicting what will happen, this has already happened. The fact that you don't even know that and are struggling to comprehend that even when its been pointed out multiple times to you shows a deep seated misunderstanding of the issues at hand. Well, I did go three weeks back into this thread and couldn't see any justification for your figures but that was no great surprise. So you are trying to tell me you are completely ignorant of the £60bn of quantitative easing plus a further £10bn of monetary policy measures announced by the bank of England since the referendum? You never heard about or read about that huge news story? You didn't read any of the multiple threads on it on this forum? Even CandM mentioned it above, perhaps you don't believe them either? I assume you must also be ignorant of the Autumn statement, the first budget by the new chancellor, the first budget since the referendum. You didn't hear about that or read about that? Or did you just happen to miss the extra £22bn of borrowing required as a result of brexit? Seriously if you missed those two events, you really don't pay much attention to politics. Have you read up on quantitative easing in the EU? The bail outs that are required to save Italy? The issues with Greece? If not, I suggest that you have not been keeping up with politics." that's the quickest side step I have ever seen on this forum! You completely ignored everything I said and tried to change the subject we were discussing.
That's either because you truly are ignorant of the events I mentioned, or because you know I'm 100% right but you would rather cut your own arms off rather than admit it! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. And because it is mentioned on a thread on a swinging site you ascribe to it? You are so enamoured with experts. You do understand that economic experts are a bit artistic? That school children fare better than fund managers in predicting returns on the stockmarket? You seem to be struggling to understand. This isn't about predicting what will happen, this has already happened. The fact that you don't even know that and are struggling to comprehend that even when its been pointed out multiple times to you shows a deep seated misunderstanding of the issues at hand. Well, I did go three weeks back into this thread and couldn't see any justification for your figures but that was no great surprise. So you are trying to tell me you are completely ignorant of the £60bn of quantitative easing plus a further £10bn of monetary policy measures announced by the bank of England since the referendum? You never heard about or read about that huge news story? You didn't read any of the multiple threads on it on this forum? Even CandM mentioned it above, perhaps you don't believe them either? I assume you must also be ignorant of the Autumn statement, the first budget by the new chancellor, the first budget since the referendum. You didn't hear about that or read about that? Or did you just happen to miss the extra £22bn of borrowing required as a result of brexit? Seriously if you missed those two events, you really don't pay much attention to politics. Have you read up on quantitative easing in the EU? The bail outs that are required to save Italy? The issues with Greece? If not, I suggest that you have not been keeping up with politics. that's the quickest side step I have ever seen on this forum! You completely ignored everything I said and tried to change the subject we were discussing.
That's either because you truly are ignorant of the events I mentioned, or because you know I'm 100% right but you would rather cut your own arms off rather than admit it! "Nope. The quickest side step I have seen is yours. Please tell me how rhe EU will deal with Italy and Greece. It is such a beautiful Disneyland of economic harmony, is it not? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Where exactly does that figure of £92bn come from? La-la land? It's mentioned multiple times above, £70bn in monetary policy measures, and £22bn in fiscal policy measures from the Autumn statement. And because it is mentioned on a thread on a swinging site you ascribe to it? You are so enamoured with experts. You do understand that economic experts are a bit artistic? That school children fare better than fund managers in predicting returns on the stockmarket? You seem to be struggling to understand. This isn't about predicting what will happen, this has already happened. The fact that you don't even know that and are struggling to comprehend that even when its been pointed out multiple times to you shows a deep seated misunderstanding of the issues at hand. Well, I did go three weeks back into this thread and couldn't see any justification for your figures but that was no great surprise. So you are trying to tell me you are completely ignorant of the £60bn of quantitative easing plus a further £10bn of monetary policy measures announced by the bank of England since the referendum? You never heard about or read about that huge news story? You didn't read any of the multiple threads on it on this forum? Even CandM mentioned it above, perhaps you don't believe them either? I assume you must also be ignorant of the Autumn statement, the first budget by the new chancellor, the first budget since the referendum. You didn't hear about that or read about that? Or did you just happen to miss the extra £22bn of borrowing required as a result of brexit? Seriously if you missed those two events, you really don't pay much attention to politics. Have you read up on quantitative easing in the EU? The bail outs that are required to save Italy? The issues with Greece? If not, I suggest that you have not been keeping up with politics. that's the quickest side step I have ever seen on this forum! You completely ignored everything I said and tried to change the subject we were discussing.
That's either because you truly are ignorant of the events I mentioned, or because you know I'm 100% right but you would rather cut your own arms off rather than admit it!
Nope. The quickest side step I have seen is yours. Please tell me how rhe EU will deal with Italy and Greece. It is such a beautiful Disneyland of economic harmony, is it not?"The last 26 post have been about the UK never seeing a penny in savings from leaving the EU, nothing to do with Italy and Greece. Stop being such a coward, and admit that you did hear the stories, and that you are already aware that the UK has already spent £92bn on Brexit. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I wonder why I post here sometimes as everyone is so busy avoiding reading "It is not that people don't read your posts, it is that there are 2 schools of thought here: Those who believe that leaving the EU is economic suicide. Has already cost more than the country can afford, and will only get worse as we exit the EU. And those who either refuse to believe or don't care what the cost of leaving the EU is. The former will no doubt eventually quote your post when the latter say something your post proves false. The latter don't want to hear anything other than Brexit will 'make the UK great again!' while we all wrap ourselves in the 'red, white and blue' brexit flag and sing 'Rule Britannia'! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| back to top |  |
