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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

So there's a thread in the lounge complaining at the lack of intelligent conversation up there.

We all know that's because the intelligent conversation happens down here. Well that and a lot of Brexit shit.

Anyway, mums the word ok?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wot no kiss fuck snog who's a vaper

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

It's all kicking off, people coming out in force to say it's a sex site and they don't want these intelligent conversations round 'ere

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I like it when there's something beyond their scope and.... Wham this thread should be in politics.

.

In reality it's just any topic you could argue about and I think fair enough, they don't like the arguing but then..... There arguing about the very subject now!! And they argue over every subject regardless

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I like it when there's something beyond their scope and.... Wham this thread should be in politics.

.

In reality it's just any topic you could argue about and I think fair enough, they don't like the arguing but then..... There arguing about the very subject now!! And they argue over every subject regardless"

I had one yesterday where I told someone their explanation of a phenomenon was simplistic and they got all angry saying that a forum wasn't the place for proper analysis!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unless its is squirt piss?

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

Stop tempting fate!

We dont want to go back to the lounge do we?

Remember all the warnings, and threads being edited and closed because of moronic abuse...

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Stop tempting fate!

We dont want to go back to the lounge do we?

Remember all the warnings, and threads being edited and closed because of moronic abuse..."

Hell no I don't want to go back. I just find it funny that they are missing us but I ain't missing them at all (in my best Tina tuner voice)

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By *ivemeyoursoulWoman
over a year ago

Easter just around the corner!

The people complaining about the lack of intelligent conversations will be here when they've stopped moaning further up...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I like it when there's something beyond their scope and.... Wham this thread should be in politics.

.

In reality it's just any topic you could argue about and I think fair enough, they don't like the arguing but then..... There arguing about the very subject now!! And they argue over every subject regardless

I had one yesterday where I told someone their explanation of a phenomenon was simplistic and they got all angry saying that a forum wasn't the place for proper analysis! "
.

Yeahhh this is a sex forum baby.... Don't make me press this button ... My thumbs on it and I'm really offended at you pointing out where I was wrong...

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

There are only so many kiss, fuck, avoid threads you can post on before your brain turns to mush.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Ooh the carnage: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/557584

It's clear lots of people don't want 'intelligent conversations' - can't think why...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Australian commentary on sex forums. Awesome

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

"as soon as decent conversation starts the same 25 people start a thread hijack about absolute shite, in jokes, and general gibberish with emoticons"

Ha ha ha ha ha so true. Hence why we're happy down here and don't want to go back.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

I have to admit that there are some who used to post regularly on threads while we were still in the lounge that I miss. Granny Crumpet and Tina come strait to mind.

But having read the thread I have to say that Fabio (as he usually does) hit the real problem with the lounge on the head when he mentioned PM's from people thanking him for saying things they were afraid to say because of the lynch mob mentality of some, and the way others used it to silence anything they did not approve of.

On balance, I am not happy to see a thread in the lounge that advertises the fact that we have not been bullied out of the forums, just moved by admin to somewhere we can discuss issues without needing mods to step in referee tantrums.

I do miss the share music threads to be honest, but not enough to visit the lounge more than about once a week.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"So there's a thread in the lounge complaining at the lack of intelligent conversation up there.

We all know that's because the intelligent conversation happens down here. Well that and a lot of Brexit shit.

Anyway, mums the word ok? "

Your going to be a mum, omg congratulations,

when is the due date, well done, was it planned

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This thread should be in The Lounge

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"This thread should be in The Lounge "

I would disagree, no one has called the previous poster a tosser or a load of emotocons.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"This thread should be in The Lounge

I would disagree, no one has called the previous poster a tosser or a load of emotocons.

"

Tosser

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

P.s. Who fancies a fuck?

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

I think we can all agree this thread has now reached the level required for the mods to step in and transfer it to the kindergarten (lounge).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"P.s. Who fancies a fuck?"

You've forgotten the obligatory ' '

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/feedback/557609

I'm on a mission. Separate and not equal!

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

^^^

One wonders how many of the lounge trolls are lurking on this thread and asking themselves 'if they feel lucky'...

"Well do you punk!"

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/feedback/557609

I'm on a mission. Separate and not equal!"

Why!! Why would you do that to us!? We were nice to you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/feedback/557609

I'm on a mission. Separate and not equal!

Why!! Why would you do that to us!? We were nice to you "

See, I love talking politics, but it's lost interest for me, down here floating in the Atlantic ocean with the same boat load of people arguing the same things.

And let's face it, the lounge needs help. It's getting dire.

I think we can all help eachother. Heal the breach.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/feedback/557609

I'm on a mission. Separate and not equal!

Why!! Why would you do that to us!? We were nice to you

See, I love talking politics, but it's lost interest for me, down here floating in the Atlantic ocean with the same boat load of people arguing the same things.

And let's face it, the lounge needs help. It's getting dire.

I think we can all help eachother. Heal the breach. "

They are beyond help. We can fix our problems. But you'll never have a decent debate in the lounge because 50% of the posts will be 1 word and you'll hit 150 replies just explaining simple definitions to people. The thread will close as soon as it gets going.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lounge people tend to say stupid things thinking they're being deep and meaningful

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Lounge people tend to say stupid things thinking they're being deep and meaningful "
in political discussions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/feedback/557609

I'm on a mission. Separate and not equal!

Why!! Why would you do that to us!? We were nice to you

See, I love talking politics, but it's lost interest for me, down here floating in the Atlantic ocean with the same boat load of people arguing the same things.

And let's face it, the lounge needs help. It's getting dire.

I think we can all help eachother. Heal the breach.

They are beyond help. We can fix our problems. But you'll never have a decent debate in the lounge because 50% of the posts will be 1 word and you'll hit 150 replies just explaining simple definitions to people. The thread will close as soon as it gets going. "

Snobby!

I think it brings diversity of opinion and thought. I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Lounge people tend to say stupid things thinking they're being deep and meaningful in political discussions "

this

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/feedback/557609

I'm on a mission. Separate and not equal!

Why!! Why would you do that to us!? We were nice to you

See, I love talking politics, but it's lost interest for me, down here floating in the Atlantic ocean with the same boat load of people arguing the same things.

And let's face it, the lounge needs help. It's getting dire.

I think we can all help eachother. Heal the breach.

They are beyond help. We can fix our problems. But you'll never have a decent debate in the lounge because 50% of the posts will be 1 word and you'll hit 150 replies just explaining simple definitions to people. The thread will close as soon as it gets going.

Snobby!

I think it brings diversity of opinion and thought. I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides. "

If you believe in a single truth then infinite diverse opinions are not really a good thing.

I really can't deal with all the overly emotive language in the lounge.

You know how boring it is on a bareback thread when someone says "Russian roulette" well it gets pretty boring when people say meaningless phrases like "greed" and "they make the rich richer and the poor poorer" whenever Tories are mentioned.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/feedback/557609

I'm on a mission. Separate and not equal!

Why!! Why would you do that to us!? We were nice to you

See, I love talking politics, but it's lost interest for me, down here floating in the Atlantic ocean with the same boat load of people arguing the same things.

And let's face it, the lounge needs help. It's getting dire.

I think we can all help eachother. Heal the breach.

They are beyond help. We can fix our problems. But you'll never have a decent debate in the lounge because 50% of the posts will be 1 word and you'll hit 150 replies just explaining simple definitions to people. The thread will close as soon as it gets going.

Snobby!

I think it brings diversity of opinion and thought. I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

If you believe in a single truth then infinite diverse opinions are not really a good thing.

I really can't deal with all the overly emotive language in the lounge.

You know how boring it is on a bareback thread when someone says "Russian roulette" well it gets pretty boring when people say meaningless phrases like "greed" and "they make the rich richer and the poor poorer" whenever Tories are mentioned. "

Have you read the stuff in this forum?? It's gotten so repetitive I barely even look anymore unless someone sends me a link. Talk about boring.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides. "

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/feedback/557609

I'm on a mission. Separate and not equal!

Why!! Why would you do that to us!? We were nice to you

See, I love talking politics, but it's lost interest for me, down here floating in the Atlantic ocean with the same boat load of people arguing the same things.

And let's face it, the lounge needs help. It's getting dire.

I think we can all help eachother. Heal the breach.

They are beyond help. We can fix our problems. But you'll never have a decent debate in the lounge because 50% of the posts will be 1 word and you'll hit 150 replies just explaining simple definitions to people. The thread will close as soon as it gets going.

Snobby!

I think it brings diversity of opinion and thought. I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

If you believe in a single truth then infinite diverse opinions are not really a good thing.

I really can't deal with all the overly emotive language in the lounge.

You know how boring it is on a bareback thread when someone says "Russian roulette" well it gets pretty boring when people say meaningless phrases like "greed" and "they make the rich richer and the poor poorer" whenever Tories are mentioned.

Have you read the stuff in this forum?? It's gotten so repetitive I barely even look anymore unless someone sends me a link. Talk about boring. "

I'd look at it another way.

Here, 60% of the threads are Brexit-related shit. 40% are genuinely good discussions about serious events.

In the lounge, 90% of the threads will be filled with slogans, propaganda and general rubbish. Anything other than debate really. 10% will reach an average standard of debate.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge."

Take this thread for example: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/swingers/557312 I got criticised for daring to mention some scientific research rather than giving rambling shower thoughts and news bites!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge."

A thread doesn't have to be closed for there to be poorly informed arguments within it. I don't want to give a run down because I already know that will lead to a political discussion, which isn't my intention.

I just think that the lounge has lost something by having a swperate politics forum and that the politics forum has developed a singlemindedness to its own detriment.

People can disagree. I'm cool with that. But that's how I see it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge.

Take this thread for example: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/swingers/557312 I got criticised for daring to mention some scientific research rather than giving rambling shower thoughts and news bites! "

I can't defend that

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge.

A thread doesn't have to be closed for there to be poorly informed arguments within it. I don't want to give a run down because I already know that will lead to a political discussion, which isn't my intention.

I just think that the lounge has lost something by having a swperate politics forum and that the politics forum has developed a singlemindedness to its own detriment.

People can disagree. I'm cool with that. But that's how I see it "

I spend way too much time on here, but sometimes I actually learn shit. For example, you know I liked my brier scores. But in the course of discussing it, someone actually pointed out a serious flaw in the brier score and referenced a paper that suggest I use a log likelihood function instead. I've since read the paper and I agree with it.

I've genuinely learnt something really useful to me. That only happens when you actually get to know the posters (so you can ignore the crazies) and a debate has time to unfold properly, not rush to 180 posts with one liners. I'd never get that from the lounge.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge.

Take this thread for example: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/swingers/557312 I got criticised for daring to mention some scientific research rather than giving rambling shower thoughts and news bites!

I can't defend that "

This thread was prompted by a lounge thread called "intelligent discussions". If you read that thread you'll see its quite clear some people don't want intelligent discussions and will hijack the crap out of them because 'it's a sex site'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge.

Take this thread for example: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/swingers/557312 I got criticised for daring to mention some scientific research rather than giving rambling shower thoughts and news bites!

I can't defend that

This thread was prompted by a lounge thread called "intelligent discussions". If you read that thread you'll see its quite clear some people don't want intelligent discussions and will hijack the crap out of them because 'it's a sex site'. "

I read that thread. I wish post because I don't feel like arguing it all. But I don't think we should just say "ok" to the "it's a sex site" posters and let the level of discussion deteriorate. I'm fighting back

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge.

Take this thread for example: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/swingers/557312 I got criticised for daring to mention some scientific research rather than giving rambling shower thoughts and news bites!

I can't defend that

This thread was prompted by a lounge thread called "intelligent discussions". If you read that thread you'll see its quite clear some people don't want intelligent discussions and will hijack the crap out of them because 'it's a sex site'.

I read that thread. I wish post because I don't feel like arguing it all. But I don't think we should just say "ok" to the "it's a sex site" posters and let the level of discussion deteriorate. I'm fighting back "

*didn't post

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge.

Take this thread for example: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/swingers/557312 I got criticised for daring to mention some scientific research rather than giving rambling shower thoughts and news bites!

I can't defend that

This thread was prompted by a lounge thread called "intelligent discussions". If you read that thread you'll see its quite clear some people don't want intelligent discussions and will hijack the crap out of them because 'it's a sex site'.

I read that thread. I wish post because I don't feel like arguing it all. But I don't think we should just say "ok" to the "it's a sex site" posters and let the level of discussion deteriorate. I'm fighting back

*didn't post "

Deep in the dark place in your mind, there's a hint of elitism telling you that not everyone has a political opinion worth posting...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" I've seen plenty of uninformed I poorly informed discussion down here in the politics forum but without any humor. It's turns nasty. I think we all need the best sides of eachother to balance out our worst sides.

Please give an example.

To my knowledge since the formation of this forum I know of only 1 thread that has been closed because of how it developed, an occurrence the used to happen with monotonous regularity whenever difficult subjects were broached in the lounge. We now get to discuss these subjects and at time modify our perceptions without being shouted down by the 'this is a sex site' or the 'PC' mafia that used to always close down meaningful debate in the lounge.

Take this thread for example: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/swingers/557312 I got criticised for daring to mention some scientific research rather than giving rambling shower thoughts and news bites!

I can't defend that

This thread was prompted by a lounge thread called "intelligent discussions". If you read that thread you'll see its quite clear some people don't want intelligent discussions and will hijack the crap out of them because 'it's a sex site'.

I read that thread. I wish post because I don't feel like arguing it all. But I don't think we should just say "ok" to the "it's a sex site" posters and let the level of discussion deteriorate. I'm fighting back

*didn't post

Deep in the dark place in your mind, there's a hint of elitism telling you that not everyone has a political opinion worth posting... "

No comment.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


" I just think that the lounge has lost something by having a swperate politics forum"

Now that is the truth, and I think some are now working out what is missing from there. However that it has taken 4 months for them to work it out speaks volumes!


" and that the politics forum has developed a singlemindedness to its own detriment."

I would suggest that if you polled those who post and follow debates here there would be an overwhelming satisfaction with how the politics forum runs and the subjects covered. As for our single mindedness, that is a reflection of those who post. Please don't stifle our forums development because you find your forum (the Lounge) has become boring and you no longer have us and the subjects we like to discuss to provide trolling entertainment for those who start and post 'fuck, kiss, avoid' threads.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" I just think that the lounge has lost something by having a swperate politics forum

Now that is the truth, and I think some are now working out what is missing from there. However that it has taken 4 months for them to work it out speaks volumes!

and that the politics forum has developed a singlemindedness to its own detriment.

I would suggest that if you polled those who post and follow debates here there would be an overwhelming satisfaction with how the politics forum runs and the subjects covered. As for our single mindedness, that is a reflection of those who post. Please don't stifle our forums development because you find your forum (the Lounge) has become boring and you no longer have us and the subjects we like to discuss to provide trolling entertainment for those who start and post 'fuck, kiss, avoid' threads."

Well, I have been posting in the politics forum for ages. I didn't realize the lounge was "[my] forum." It didn't take me 4 months to figure out that I don't like the separate forums, I've said it from the beginning.

And as for the people who post here liking the way it runs, I would call that self selection. Everyone else has gone. I used to post more here, too, but I've been doing it less and less. Those who've stayed must like it, but again I would say that is self selection. But I suppose I should just go back to my forum. Apologies

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By *awandOrderCouple
over a year ago

SW London


""as soon as decent conversation starts the same 25 people start a thread hijack about absolute shite, in jokes, and general gibberish with emoticons"

Ha ha ha ha ha so true. Hence why we're happy down here and don't want to go back. "

Oh dear, did they name the twenty five. I am sure I am one of them .... because I really dislike all of they nonsense ... liking the politics forum more and more

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By *iverpool LoverMan
over a year ago

liverpool

[Removed by poster at 09/10/16 22:29:32]

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*shakes head and walks slowly away*

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

i have put the same thing in the feedback thread....

"i did make the case that if you wanted to be a policy wonk and debate minutiae then sure the politics forum is great for that.... and it had been interesting to see i am not the only one that was "wonkish"..

however i do also believe there is a difference between discussing politics and policy... and discussing current affairs and topics in the general news cycle.... and that is where i think those should end up in the lounge....

because anytime anything remotely "meaty" is posted in the lounge, one of the fluff brigade will scream... "thats politics"... and off it disappears.. and i think that is what the people in the lounge are missing for the amount of fluff now consuming the place....

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

The 'problem' with having politics in the lounge, I think, is this.

There are maybe about 10 (??) people with very entrenched views, who will argue until blue in the face, defending their position on a particular topic.

When a thread has these posters, they are unappealing for someone with an 'average' interest in the subject to chip in.

The outcome seems to be a Politics forum, with heated 'debate' , and a lounge with 'lighter' subjects.

I honestly don't know the solution or if there is a middle ground.

MrB

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They are attempting to discuss political issues in the lounge now. More people taking part, but quantity doth not mean quality.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"They are attempting to discuss political issues in the lounge now. More people taking part, but quantity doth not mean quality."

The 'quality' in the politics forum isn't great. It's just 2 or 3 people repeating what they believe. It's not a debate, nobody in the discussion ever accepts any body elses point . Looks like PM queations at its worst at times.

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