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"It's a tricky and complicated situation that's got several factors to it, is this Colin chap the football player who's been sitting at anthems?. . " yes.... he had been doing it sitting in the background for a while before anyone noticed... and it was when he asked about it by journalists that it blew up.... he has modified his stance as such where instead of sitting he now takes a knee instead... but the motive is the same.... this is spreading thru the NFL, and it will be interesting to see what happens when the NBA starts up again next month... | |||
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"It's a tricky and complicated situation that's got several factors to it, is this Colin chap the football player who's been sitting at anthems?. . yes.... he had been doing it sitting in the background for a while before anyone noticed... and it was when he asked about it by journalists that it blew up.... he has modified his stance as such where instead of sitting he now takes a knee instead... but the motive is the same.... this is spreading thru the NFL, and it will be interesting to see what happens when the NBA starts up again next month..." . It's a perfectly noble stance or in this case non stance,i don't get all the shit he's had for it, although I'd like to add it's got little chance of curing anything. The problem in the USA is not racial it's the haves and the have nots of which Mr Colin is on the haves side. | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over" What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. actually the last two they actually do, and have in the past.... chinese/ japanese/korean.... and mexican american to distinguish them from those from other latin countries and spanish speaking caribbean countries.. as for european american... not as a broad brush... you do hear Irish-american and italian-american a lot, polish american, german/swedish american in the midwest and minnesota, and i have heard (name ya eastern european country) american in parts of new york... | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. actually the last two they actually do, and have in the past.... chinese/ japanese/korean.... and mexican american to distinguish them from those from other latin countries and spanish speaking caribbean countries.. as for european american... not as a broad brush... you do hear Irish-american and italian-american a lot, polish american, german/swedish american in the midwest and minnesota, and i have heard (name ya eastern european country) american in parts of new york..." But if you naturalise to American do you not become American ? | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. actually the last two they actually do, and have in the past.... chinese/ japanese/korean.... and mexican american to distinguish them from those from other latin countries and spanish speaking caribbean countries.. as for european american... not as a broad brush... you do hear Irish-american and italian-american a lot, polish american, german/swedish american in the midwest and minnesota, and i have heard (name ya eastern european country) american in parts of new york..." . It's a generic term used for somebody who's black? , What if your Jamaican and black, what if your Jamaican and white....I dislike it for the same reason i dislike Irish American, it's cultural association on the subliminal level. . If we examine the root causes of the problems, what do we find? Poverty and crime, well there sort of bothers in arms, age old racial mistrust and ignorance on both sides, gun culture, a lack of hope, poor education, health services..... Now call me cynical but seen as like 95% of black people vote democrat, then the democrats have a seat at the table for the status quo, the Republicans are a bunch of dicks by and large although some of them are well meaning dicks!....I wouldn't look to them to solve the problem either. So what we left with, a situation that suits both parties and perpetuates a mostly myth that the boogeyman is out to get you if your black!..... | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. actually the last two they actually do, and have in the past.... chinese/ japanese/korean.... and mexican american to distinguish them from those from other latin countries and spanish speaking caribbean countries.. as for european american... not as a broad brush... you do hear Irish-american and italian-american a lot, polish american, german/swedish american in the midwest and minnesota, and i have heard (name ya eastern european country) american in parts of new york.... It's a generic term used for somebody who's black? , What if your Jamaican and black, what if your Jamaican and white....I dislike it for the same reason i dislike Irish American, it's cultural association on the subliminal level. . If we examine the root causes of the problems, what do we find? Poverty and crime, well there sort of bothers in arms, age old racial mistrust and ignorance on both sides, gun culture, a lack of hope, poor education, health services..... Now call me cynical but seen as like 95% of black people vote democrat, then the democrats have a seat at the table for the status quo, the Republicans are a bunch of dicks by and large although some of them are well meaning dicks!....I wouldn't look to them to solve the problem either. So what we left with, a situation that suits both parties and perpetuates a mostly myth that the boogeyman is out to get you if your black!....." Truth is, im sick of hearing how blacks are hard done by, black lives matter and all the other crap that goes with it . Join the real world and face life like every other person in the world, no more hard luck stories, they simply piss me off black lives matter, my dogs lives mater too, everybody's life matters, . but one thing we all got in common . we are all going to die. | |||
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"been following this from the beginning and it is beginning to spread... the cases in oklahoma of the black paster being killed by a cop after his care stalled in the middle of the road.... and the case in charlotte where a black guy was killed in his own appartment in an apparent case of mistaken identity I think this is going to blow up this weekend so where do you stand with mixing sports and politics..... could this type of protest spread to the uk..... two links.... one from the mirror... and one from thinkprogress if you want to do some backreading.... http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/colin-kaepernicks-kneeling-protest-reach-8880431 https://thinkprogress.org/national-anthem-sports-protest-tracker-kaepernick-284ff1d1ab3e#.j9vpizma0 I know some people here like demean by using the term "all lives matter" to in effect shut down conversation.... but i think this is an oppotunity to have a conversation " So a conversation... Statistically, a black male is hundreds of times more likely to be killed by another black male than he is a police officer. Which is not to say that all police officers are good and none are corrupt. But my first reaction is that it seems to be a huge attempt at deflection from the real issue. | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. actually the last two they actually do, and have in the past.... chinese/ japanese/korean.... and mexican american to distinguish them from those from other latin countries and spanish speaking caribbean countries.. as for european american... not as a broad brush... you do hear Irish-american and italian-american a lot, polish american, german/swedish american in the midwest and minnesota, and i have heard (name ya eastern european country) american in parts of new york.... It's a generic term used for somebody who's black? , What if your Jamaican and black, what if your Jamaican and white....I dislike it for the same reason i dislike Irish American, it's cultural association on the subliminal level. . If we examine the root causes of the problems, what do we find? Poverty and crime, well there sort of bothers in arms, age old racial mistrust and ignorance on both sides, gun culture, a lack of hope, poor education, health services..... Now call me cynical but seen as like 95% of black people vote democrat, then the democrats have a seat at the table for the status quo, the Republicans are a bunch of dicks by and large although some of them are well meaning dicks!....I wouldn't look to them to solve the problem either. So what we left with, a situation that suits both parties and perpetuates a mostly myth that the boogeyman is out to get you if your black!..... Truth is, im sick of hearing how blacks are hard done by, black lives matter and all the other crap that goes with it . Join the real world and face life like every other person in the world, no more hard luck stories, they simply piss me off black lives matter, my dogs lives mater too, everybody's life matters, . but one thing we all got in common . we are all going to die." . No actually your right and your wrong, were all going to die but some are going to die much earlier than your white self?. Now being born black shouldn't mean that but it does and that's a problem for society | |||
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"been following this from the beginning and it is beginning to spread... the cases in oklahoma of the black paster being killed by a cop after his care stalled in the middle of the road.... and the case in charlotte where a black guy was killed in his own appartment in an apparent case of mistaken identity I think this is going to blow up this weekend so where do you stand with mixing sports and politics..... could this type of protest spread to the uk..... two links.... one from the mirror... and one from thinkprogress if you want to do some backreading.... http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/colin-kaepernicks-kneeling-protest-reach-8880431 https://thinkprogress.org/national-anthem-sports-protest-tracker-kaepernick-284ff1d1ab3e#.j9vpizma0 I know some people here like demean by using the term "all lives matter" to in effect shut down conversation.... but i think this is an oppotunity to have a conversation So a conversation... Statistically, a black male is hundreds of times more likely to be killed by another black male than he is a police officer. Which is not to say that all police officers are good and none are corrupt. But my first reaction is that it seems to be a huge attempt at deflection from the real issue. " It's all part of the same issue - a deeply racist society. Why do you think there's more black on black crime and violence? Because black people are inherently more violent or because said racist society gives them less options and opportunity to get ahead? | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. actually the last two they actually do, and have in the past.... chinese/ japanese/korean.... and mexican american to distinguish them from those from other latin countries and spanish speaking caribbean countries.. as for european american... not as a broad brush... you do hear Irish-american and italian-american a lot, polish american, german/swedish american in the midwest and minnesota, and i have heard (name ya eastern european country) american in parts of new york.... It's a generic term used for somebody who's black? , What if your Jamaican and black, what if your Jamaican and white....I dislike it for the same reason i dislike Irish American, it's cultural association on the subliminal level. . If we examine the root causes of the problems, what do we find? Poverty and crime, well there sort of bothers in arms, age old racial mistrust and ignorance on both sides, gun culture, a lack of hope, poor education, health services..... Now call me cynical but seen as like 95% of black people vote democrat, then the democrats have a seat at the table for the status quo, the Republicans are a bunch of dicks by and large although some of them are well meaning dicks!....I wouldn't look to them to solve the problem either. So what we left with, a situation that suits both parties and perpetuates a mostly myth that the boogeyman is out to get you if your black!..... Truth is, im sick of hearing how blacks are hard done by, black lives matter and all the other crap that goes with it . Join the real world and face life like every other person in the world, no more hard luck stories, they simply piss me off black lives matter, my dogs lives mater too, everybody's life matters, . but one thing we all got in common . we are all going to die." It take an incredible lack of empathy to dismiss what happens to black people in the U.S. as 'hard luck stories'. | |||
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"been following this from the beginning and it is beginning to spread... the cases in oklahoma of the black paster being killed by a cop after his care stalled in the middle of the road.... and the case in charlotte where a black guy was killed in his own appartment in an apparent case of mistaken identity I think this is going to blow up this weekend so where do you stand with mixing sports and politics..... could this type of protest spread to the uk..... two links.... one from the mirror... and one from thinkprogress if you want to do some backreading.... http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/colin-kaepernicks-kneeling-protest-reach-8880431 https://thinkprogress.org/national-anthem-sports-protest-tracker-kaepernick-284ff1d1ab3e#.j9vpizma0 I know some people here like demean by using the term "all lives matter" to in effect shut down conversation.... but i think this is an oppotunity to have a conversation So a conversation... Statistically, a black male is hundreds of times more likely to be killed by another black male than he is a police officer. Which is not to say that all police officers are good and none are corrupt. But my first reaction is that it seems to be a huge attempt at deflection from the real issue. It's all part of the same issue - a deeply racist society. Why do you think there's more black on black crime and violence? Because black people are inherently more violent or because said racist society gives them less options and opportunity to get ahead?" I will answer that, but first, how do you objectively measure how "deeply racist" a society is in order to prove that it is? | |||
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"I think America has a lot of problems with society and with police power. Cops learn early on that they should heavily police poor neighborhoods. They grow accustomed to violence against certain segments of the community. They have been militarized to the point of ridiculousness. They have a new outlook that they are the from line as if they are fighting a war. Black people are more likely to have to face these facts on a regular basis. Growing up in New York I was never asked for my bag to be searched when I was going in the subway but a black friend from Harlem had her bag searched 9 times in 7 months when going to school. I don't think that was a coincidence. But then I remember very vividly when I was a child and my white father didn't come home one day. Turns out he was in jail. He went to pick up a towed car and ended up having the shit beat out of him by a cop and then being accused of assaulting a police officer. He nearly lost his job. Luckily his brother was a lawyer and the charges were dropped and he successfully sued the city for police brutailty.This stuff happens to people who aren't black and it doesn't make the news. Maybe there's a thread that links it all? My point being that there are two problems existing side by side: namely the militarization of our police forces in the US and social problems from poverty and wealth disparity resulting in populations who those police forces see as dangerous. When you consider the fact that black people are statistically more likely to be poor, then the issue becomes even more clear. Is there a problem with racism in the U.S.? Yes. But do I think "black lives matter" is the best or most effective way of confronting the problems of police brutality? Hell no. Identity politics divides people, even people with common interests and goals. I despair that liberals have such a hard time understanding that." There's an interesting YouTube video where one of the BLM leaders goes on some police training. It's got live actors who simulate different scenarios (e.g. a bar fight between two men, a stop and search on a vehicle). Whilst they obviously use fake weapons, the actors may 'attack' the trainee officers at predefined points in the scenario if the officer does not prevent them. For example, the two men fighting stop as the officer approaches and one of them turns on the officer... After he got "killed" multiple times, he changed his perception of when police over step the line. I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I personally have a pretty low opinion of police here due to a wrongful arrest. But by the same token, it was a police officer who saw the injustice and actually 'fixed' the situation later. | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. actually the last two they actually do, and have in the past.... chinese/ japanese/korean.... and mexican american to distinguish them from those from other latin countries and spanish speaking caribbean countries.. as for european american... not as a broad brush... you do hear Irish-american and italian-american a lot, polish american, german/swedish american in the midwest and minnesota, and i have heard (name ya eastern european country) american in parts of new york.... It's a generic term used for somebody who's black? , What if your Jamaican and black, what if your Jamaican and white....I dislike it for the same reason i dislike Irish American, it's cultural association on the subliminal level. . If we examine the root causes of the problems, what do we find? Poverty and crime, well there sort of bothers in arms, age old racial mistrust and ignorance on both sides, gun culture, a lack of hope, poor education, health services..... Now call me cynical but seen as like 95% of black people vote democrat, then the democrats have a seat at the table for the status quo, the Republicans are a bunch of dicks by and large although some of them are well meaning dicks!....I wouldn't look to them to solve the problem either. So what we left with, a situation that suits both parties and perpetuates a mostly myth that the boogeyman is out to get you if your black!..... Truth is, im sick of hearing how blacks are hard done by, black lives matter and all the other crap that goes with it . Join the real world and face life like every other person in the world, no more hard luck stories, they simply piss me off black lives matter, my dogs lives mater too, everybody's life matters, . but one thing we all got in common . we are all going to die. It take an incredible lack of empathy to dismiss what happens to black people in the U.S. as 'hard luck stories'." empathy is given where it is deserved. such as to the innocent children and innocent citizens of Liberia at the hands of Joshua Milton Blahyi & Roosevelt Johnson . Black Americans such as Keith Scott only had himself to blame, when you carry a gun, then expect to die by a gun . North Carolina officers repeatedly warned an armed man to drop his gun before fatally shooting him, a police chief said. Keith Lamont Scott exited his car with a handgun when officers opened fire, said Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Kerr Putney. Mr Scott, a 43-year-old black man, was shot by a black officer and died in hospital. His death sparked overnight protests, leaving 16 officers injured. Chief Putney said Mr Scott first got out of the car with a gun and got back in when officers directed him to drop his weapon. As he got out again, officers shot him | |||
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"shocking as the man in the road is, its hard to make a case when he his walking towards his car ignoring the demands of the police. i'm not trying to justify the actions of the police, just point out that it will damage other more genuine case's, times like this with police pointing gun at you, you do as they say. i recall the ranch drama ended same way and that had most of USA in joy" I've seen a shocking video when a black guy was on the ground, face down, with his hands up and quite some way from the police- they still shot the poor bugger! But yeah, if you are approaching them, they are training to shoot in that situation so why you would do that, I have no idea!! | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. actually the last two they actually do, and have in the past.... chinese/ japanese/korean.... and mexican american to distinguish them from those from other latin countries and spanish speaking caribbean countries.. as for european american... not as a broad brush... you do hear Irish-american and italian-american a lot, polish american, german/swedish american in the midwest and minnesota, and i have heard (name ya eastern european country) american in parts of new york.... It's a generic term used for somebody who's black? , What if your Jamaican and black, what if your Jamaican and white....I dislike it for the same reason i dislike Irish American, it's cultural association on the subliminal level. . If we examine the root causes of the problems, what do we find? Poverty and crime, well there sort of bothers in arms, age old racial mistrust and ignorance on both sides, gun culture, a lack of hope, poor education, health services..... Now call me cynical but seen as like 95% of black people vote democrat, then the democrats have a seat at the table for the status quo, the Republicans are a bunch of dicks by and large although some of them are well meaning dicks!....I wouldn't look to them to solve the problem either. So what we left with, a situation that suits both parties and perpetuates a mostly myth that the boogeyman is out to get you if your black!..... Truth is, im sick of hearing how blacks are hard done by, black lives matter and all the other crap that goes with it . Join the real world and face life like every other person in the world, no more hard luck stories, they simply piss me off black lives matter, my dogs lives mater too, everybody's life matters, . but one thing we all got in common . we are all going to die. It take an incredible lack of empathy to dismiss what happens to black people in the U.S. as 'hard luck stories'. empathy is given where it is deserved. such as to the innocent children and innocent citizens of Liberia at the hands of Joshua Milton Blahyi & Roosevelt Johnson . Black Americans such as Keith Scott only had himself to blame, when you carry a gun, then expect to die by a gun . North Carolina officers repeatedly warned an armed man to drop his gun before fatally shooting him, a police chief said. Keith Lamont Scott exited his car with a handgun when officers opened fire, said Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Kerr Putney. Mr Scott, a 43-year-old black man, was shot by a black officer and died in hospital. His death sparked overnight protests, leaving 16 officers injured. Chief Putney said Mr Scott first got out of the car with a gun and got back in when officers directed him to drop his weapon. As he got out again, officers shot him " Like that twat who was killed in this country and his death sparking the London riots. He was a straight up thug, not some random member of the public. | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop." I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. " I agree with all of the above. But I also feel the statistic is relevant because it tells you what the real motivations of BLM are. If they really wanted to make the average life of the average black person better, they would tackle the bigger issue first. If they were just a bunch of anarchist, racist, power-hungry protesters then they'd pick on some narrow issue that ignores the bigger picture that you so eloquently described. However, the former involves hard work and the latter doesn't so... | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. I agree with all of the above. But I also feel the statistic is relevant because it tells you what the real motivations of BLM are. If they really wanted to make the average life of the average black person better, they would tackle the bigger issue first. If they were just a bunch of anarchist, racist, power-hungry protesters then they'd pick on some narrow issue that ignores the bigger picture that you so eloquently described. However, the former involves hard work and the latter doesn't so... " I don't see them as anarchist and power hungry. I think they have a problem in their communities and want to have an enemy that isn't themselves. They want an easy solution because that's usually what people want. Its the job of a movement to garner some degree of power and attention, but they lack the leadership of the the civil rights movement. I wish that the US media, instead of having a discussion about the merits of the protesters, could instead have a discussion about the problems in our society. I wish community leaders, politicians, and the media could do their jobs and take the frustration evidenced by these protesters and distill the actual problem so we could have a productive conversation as a nation. Then again, I wish Americans had never taken Trump seriously...I'm beginning to realize just how much I've over-overestimated my fellow countrymen. | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. " . The criminal justice system in America is criminal!. It's exactly what happens when you let the private sector take over for profit..... They look for customers!!! | |||
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" I don't see them as anarchist and power hungry. I think they have a problem in their communities and want to have an enemy that isn't themselves. They want an easy solution because that's usually what people want. Its the job of a movement to garner some degree of power and attention, but they lack the leadership of the the civil rights movement. I wish that the US media, instead of having a discussion about the merits of the protesters, could instead have a discussion about the problems in our society. I wish community leaders, politicians, and the media could do their jobs and take the frustration evidenced by these protesters and distill the actual problem so we could have a productive conversation as a nation. Then again, I wish Americans had never taken Trump seriously...I'm beginning to realize just how much I've over-overestimated my fellow countrymen. "They remind me of the occupy movement. Lots of noise, zero direction, won't achieve a thing. But when they go around chanting "what do we want? Dead cops" then that isn't a serious grievance we can debate, that is just anarchy. When their leaders go on TV and claim "black people can't be racist", that is not a serious position that can be discussed. The problem, as I see it, is that you have a very unbalanced global system where the average wage (in absolute terms) of someone in a developing country is still less than half of the minimum wage in the UK or US states that have a minimum wage. The problem is that the average person in a developing country is considerably more productive than the average person on minimum wage in a developed country. It's the kind of imbalance you really can't expect a good capitalist to ignore. How do you solve that? I have absolutely no idea. As a business person, these people (white and black) are just so far behind in terms of productive skills that I don't even know if they can catch up. The people they are behind are largely yellow and brown so it's not even a black vs white issue!! In all seriousness, the US should pump investment into China and India such that they develop rapidly, in turn raising their wages to comparable US levels. That would solve the problem... | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. . The criminal justice system in America is criminal!. It's exactly what happens when you let the private sector take over for profit..... They look for customers!!!" We've been over this a thousand times, the agent-principle problem applies to private and public sector, just in different ways | |||
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"been following this from the beginning and it is beginning to spread... the cases in oklahoma of the black paster being killed by a cop after his care stalled in the middle of the road.... and the case in charlotte where a black guy was killed in his own appartment in an apparent case of mistaken identity I think this is going to blow up this weekend so where do you stand with mixing sports and politics..... could this type of protest spread to the uk..... two links.... one from the mirror... and one from thinkprogress if you want to do some backreading.... http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/colin-kaepernicks-kneeling-protest-reach-8880431 https://thinkprogress.org/national-anthem-sports-protest-tracker-kaepernick-284ff1d1ab3e#.j9vpizma0 I know some people here like demean by using the term "all lives matter" to in effect shut down conversation.... but i think this is an oppotunity to have a conversation So a conversation... Statistically, a black male is hundreds of times more likely to be killed by another black male than he is a police officer. Which is not to say that all police officers are good and none are corrupt. But my first reaction is that it seems to be a huge attempt at deflection from the real issue. To question your statistics. As a black man you are less likely to be killed by a policeman. But what is more likely: a black man meeting a policeman and being killed or a black man meeting a black man and being killed? " What do you mean by meet them!? I presume most black people so other black people most days. But when you are an innocent person getting robbed by a stranger - do you 'meet' your attacker? An innocent black person if at far more risk from random violence / stray bullets or a mistaken identity attack from another black person than they are a policeman. If you approach a policeman shouting at you to "to get on the ground" then your life chances aren't great irrespective of your colour. | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. . The criminal justice system in America is criminal!. It's exactly what happens when you let the private sector take over for profit..... They look for customers!!! We've been over this a thousand times, the agent-principle problem applies to private and public sector, just in different ways" . We've been over it, I just didn't agree with you .
Business looks for customers, if regulation hinders customers then business looks to reduce our remove regulation!.
In the US you get private prisons working with private social programmes working with bribed country judges ,under bribed regulatory provision and a private media that has interests!!.
You can basically do what the fuck you like providing
1 it doesn't get public
2 society isn't outraged by it
3 you control the people who punish you anyhow, so no real punishment!.
.
.
Come on... We both know that's how it works!
.
Chavs didn't just evolve they were helped along the way by a higher power, if you want a boogeyman it's money, it does what it does.
.
Look black Americans have failed massively in education, drugs, violence, sex crimes, robbery, gang violence, failed parenting, single motherhood.... All these things have got far worse since the 60s race equality laws... So either America is more racist today than the 60s or racism isn't the driving force??.
So if it's not racism driving it.... Then what is it? | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. . The criminal justice system in America is criminal!. It's exactly what happens when you let the private sector take over for profit..... They look for customers!!! We've been over this a thousand times, the agent-principle problem applies to private and public sector, just in different ways. We've been over it, I just didn't agree with you .
"You need me to list a bunch of public sector scandals to prove the profit motive isn't the problem here? How did you beloved Soviet union treat your beloved planet? Their environmental record was worse than uncle sam's wasn't it? | |||
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" I don't see them as anarchist and power hungry. I think they have a problem in their communities and want to have an enemy that isn't themselves. They want an easy solution because that's usually what people want. Its the job of a movement to garner some degree of power and attention, but they lack the leadership of the the civil rights movement. I wish that the US media, instead of having a discussion about the merits of the protesters, could instead have a discussion about the problems in our society. I wish community leaders, politicians, and the media could do their jobs and take the frustration evidenced by these protesters and distill the actual problem so we could have a productive conversation as a nation. Then again, I wish Americans had never taken Trump seriously...I'm beginning to realize just how much I've over-overestimated my fellow countrymen.
They remind me of the occupy movement. Lots of noise, zero direction, won't achieve a thing. But when they go around chanting "what do we want? Dead cops" then that isn't a serious grievance we can debate, that is just anarchy.
When their leaders go on TV and claim "black people can't be racist", that is not a serious position that can be discussed.
The problem, as I see it, is that you have a very unbalanced global system where the average wage (in absolute terms) of someone in a developing country is still less than half of the minimum wage in the UK or US states that have a minimum wage.
The problem is that the average person in a developing country is considerably more productive than the average person on minimum wage in a developed country. It's the kind of imbalance you really can't expect a good capitalist to ignore.
How do you solve that? I have absolutely no idea. As a business person, these people (white and black) are just so far behind in terms of productive skills that I don't even know if they can catch up. The people they are behind are largely yellow and brown so it's not even a black vs white issue!!
In all seriousness, the US should pump investment into China and India such that they develop rapidly, in turn raising their wages to comparable US levels. That would solve the problem... "I could not disagree more. The problem is not a disparity in production, the problem is an increase in wealth disparity. Productivity vs. wages of western workers may not be to the standard of those in countries where wages are cheap, but then we don't have slavery anymore, either. It's deflection anyway. The rich are getting richer, and those in power are helping to keep it that way. That means that there is less out there for everyone else. Now imagine you're a 25 year old black man who just got out of jail for drug related crimes of your youth and you find that you can't vote (so have lost your say in the "system" that put you in jail) and no one will hire you. So even that minimum wage job isn't open to you. What do you do? If you're from Chicago you join a gang and sell drugs for money. I completely agree with your assessment of the black lives matter movement, though. Their arguments are ill informed and poorly presented. Their politics are shaky and they are very often as racist as the people they despise. As I said, it's a shame that poor people in America aren't as well lead and organized as more successful movements throughout history. | |||
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" I could not disagree more. The problem is not a disparity in production, the problem is an increase in wealth disparity. Productivity vs. wages of western workers may not be to the standard of those in countries where wages are cheap, but then we don't have slavery anymore, either. It's deflection anyway. The rich are getting richer, and those in power are helping to keep it that way. That means that there is less out there for everyone else. Now imagine you're a 25 year old black man who just got out of jail for drug related crimes of your youth and you find that you can't vote (so have lost your say in the "system" that put you in jail) and no one will hire you. So even that minimum wage job isn't open to you. What do you do? If you're from Chicago you join a gang and sell drugs for money. I completely agree with your assessment of the black lives matter movement, though. Their arguments are ill informed and poorly presented. Their politics are shaky and they are very often as racist as the people they despise. As I said, it's a shame that poor people in America aren't as well lead and organized as more successful movements throughout history." I'm afraid I have to disagree with your disagreement. An advanced economy has very little need to unskilled labour and struggles to justify the cost of it. Pretty much anything that can be done offshore will be. The people you are describing are not likely to be highly skilled inviduals. Since there aren't many entry level jobs, they turn to crime as you describe. I must pull you up on something else. The rich getting richer does not necessarily mean "there is less out there for everyone else". That's a zero sum fallacy. It really depends how the rich are getting richer. If they are doing it by being good old capitalists and creating new, innovative companies then their wealth does not detract from anyone else's. If they get it from what economists call 'rents' then it might. What I'm really saying is that the conditions of the ghetto are still only bad by developed countries standards. There are about 800m Chinese who would switch places tomorrow and probably a similar number in India. The first prime minister of India (Nehru) was a walking economic disaster and Mao was even worse in China. Now the world's two largest countries have stopped fucking themselves, we are in a period of adjustment where those countries will close the poverty gap on 'the west'. Whilst that is happening, don't expect wages or job creation at the lower end of society to go anywhere good. It's inevitable in my opinion. | |||
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" I could not disagree more. The problem is not a disparity in production, the problem is an increase in wealth disparity. Productivity vs. wages of western workers may not be to the standard of those in countries where wages are cheap, but then we don't have slavery anymore, either. It's deflection anyway. The rich are getting richer, and those in power are helping to keep it that way. That means that there is less out there for everyone else. Now imagine you're a 25 year old black man who just got out of jail for drug related crimes of your youth and you find that you can't vote (so have lost your say in the "system" that put you in jail) and no one will hire you. So even that minimum wage job isn't open to you. What do you do? If you're from Chicago you join a gang and sell drugs for money. I completely agree with your assessment of the black lives matter movement, though. Their arguments are ill informed and poorly presented. Their politics are shaky and they are very often as racist as the people they despise. As I said, it's a shame that poor people in America aren't as well lead and organized as more successful movements throughout history. I'm afraid I have to disagree with your disagreement. An advanced economy has very little need to unskilled labour and struggles to justify the cost of it. Pretty much anything that can be done offshore will be. The people you are describing are not likely to be highly skilled inviduals. Since there aren't many entry level jobs, they turn to crime as you describe. I must pull you up on something else. The rich getting richer does not necessarily mean "there is less out there for everyone else". That's a zero sum fallacy. It really depends how the rich are getting richer. If they are doing it by being good old capitalists and creating new, innovative companies then their wealth does not detract from anyone else's. If they get it from what economists call 'rents' then it might. What I'm really saying is that the conditions of the ghetto are still only bad by developed countries standards. There are about 800m Chinese who would switch places tomorrow and probably a similar number in India. The first prime minister of India (Nehru) was a walking economic disaster and Mao was even worse in China. Now the world's two largest countries have stopped fucking themselves, we are in a period of adjustment where those countries will close the poverty gap on 'the west'. Whilst that is happening, don't expect wages or job creation at the lower end of society to go anywhere good. It's inevitable in my opinion. " I'm on my phone and can't answer everything because my typing is shitty. I will say two things... (1) Its not a zero sum game but the amount of wealth amassed in the hands of the wealthy, in percentage terms, is increasing. That means that the rich are getting richer at a faster rate than the wealth they are creating. (2) At least we are now discussing the issues that people, including the black lives matter protesters, should be discussing  | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. . The criminal justice system in America is criminal!. It's exactly what happens when you let the private sector take over for profit..... They look for customers!!! We've been over this a thousand times, the agent-principle problem applies to private and public sector, just in different ways. We've been over it, I just didn't agree with you .
You need me to list a bunch of public sector scandals to prove the profit motive isn't the problem here?
How did you beloved Soviet union treat your beloved planet? Their environmental record was worse than uncle sam's wasn't it? ". Last time I looked public sector and private sector both revolve around money so they'll both have the same inherent problems, the biggest difference between them is the public sector don't incentivse they're employees like the private sector do.... Eg a public sector wells Fargo wouldn't be anywhere near as effect as a private sector one would at illegal scams.... Money my friend is not the great evil.... It's the oil for humans evil | |||
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" Last time I looked public sector and private sector both revolve around money so they'll both have the same inherent problems, the biggest difference between them is the public sector don't incentivse they're employees like the private sector do.... Eg a public sector wells Fargo wouldn't be anywhere near as effect as a private sector one would at illegal scams.... Money my friend is not the great evil.... It's the oil for humans evil" Wrong again mon ami. Go to any good prison near you and you'll see how an economy can function without any money at all. | |||
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" Last time I looked public sector and private sector both revolve around money so they'll both have the same inherent problems, the biggest difference between them is the public sector don't incentivse they're employees like the private sector do.... Eg a public sector wells Fargo wouldn't be anywhere near as effect as a private sector one would at illegal scams.... Money my friend is not the great evil.... It's the oil for humans evil Wrong again mon ami. Go to any good prison near you and you'll see how an economy can function without any money at all. " . You know why all economists fail?. It's because they try to fathom out capitalism instead of trying to fathom out humans. The systems not flawed.... It's the users of the system that are | |||
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" I could not disagree more. The problem is not a disparity in production, the problem is an increase in wealth disparity. Productivity vs. wages of western workers may not be to the standard of those in countries where wages are cheap, but then we don't have slavery anymore, either. It's deflection anyway. The rich are getting richer, and those in power are helping to keep it that way. That means that there is less out there for everyone else. Now imagine you're a 25 year old black man who just got out of jail for drug related crimes of your youth and you find that you can't vote (so have lost your say in the "system" that put you in jail) and no one will hire you. So even that minimum wage job isn't open to you. What do you do? If you're from Chicago you join a gang and sell drugs for money. I completely agree with your assessment of the black lives matter movement, though. Their arguments are ill informed and poorly presented. Their politics are shaky and they are very often as racist as the people they despise. As I said, it's a shame that poor people in America aren't as well lead and organized as more successful movements throughout history. I'm afraid I have to disagree with your disagreement. An advanced economy has very little need to unskilled labour and struggles to justify the cost of it. Pretty much anything that can be done offshore will be. The people you are describing are not likely to be highly skilled inviduals. Since there aren't many entry level jobs, they turn to crime as you describe. I must pull you up on something else. The rich getting richer does not necessarily mean "there is less out there for everyone else". That's a zero sum fallacy. It really depends how the rich are getting richer. If they are doing it by being good old capitalists and creating new, innovative companies then their wealth does not detract from anyone else's. If they get it from what economists call 'rents' then it might. What I'm really saying is that the conditions of the ghetto are still only bad by developed countries standards. There are about 800m Chinese who would switch places tomorrow and probably a similar number in India. The first prime minister of India (Nehru) was a walking economic disaster and Mao was even worse in China. Now the world's two largest countries have stopped fucking themselves, we are in a period of adjustment where those countries will close the poverty gap on 'the west'. Whilst that is happening, don't expect wages or job creation at the lower end of society to go anywhere good. It's inevitable in my opinion. I'm on my phone and can't answer everything because my typing is shitty. I will say two things... (1) Its not a zero sum game but the amount of wealth amassed in the hands of the wealthy, in percentage terms, is increasing. That means that the rich are getting richer at a faster rate than the wealth they are creating. (2) At least we are now discussing the issues that people, including the black lives matter protesters, should be discussing "Oh I have no doubt 1 is true, I just meant it's entirely possible for a wave to lift all boats. The problem is that there are just so many jobs in America that pay well, but are economically pointless. They exist to provide a paper trail that never gets used for anything. | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. . The criminal justice system in America is criminal!. It's exactly what happens when you let the private sector take over for profit..... They look for customers!!! We've been over this a thousand times, the agent-principle problem applies to private and public sector, just in different ways. We've been over it, I just didn't agree with you .
Business looks for customers, if regulation hinders customers then business looks to reduce our remove regulation!.
In the US you get private prisons working with private social programmes working with bribed country judges ,under bribed regulatory provision and a private media that has interests!!.
You can basically do what the fuck you like providing
1 it doesn't get public
2 society isn't outraged by it
3 you control the people who punish you anyhow, so no real punishment!.
.
.
Come on... We both know that's how it works!
.
Chavs didn't just evolve they were helped along the way by a higher power, if you want a boogeyman it's money, it does what it does.
.
Look black Americans have failed massively in education, drugs, violence, sex crimes, robbery, gang violence, failed parenting, single motherhood.... All these things have got far worse since the 60s race equality laws... So either America is more racist today than the 60s or racism isn't the driving force??.
So if it's not racism driving it.... Then what is it?". Could it be Mr fiddy made a point? You look around the world and there's basically two ways to control society. 1 totalitarianism 2 wealth equality or a lesser gap between the margins. . Now from my mere mortal observations the west is decreasing number 2 which means??. Yep number 1 is going to increase!. Now as Courtney pointed out they've militarised the police for a reason, they know there going to have to increase number 1 route. Black presidents, women presidents , liberal ones, pot smokers, it's like people keep voting for change and not getting it and now there getting frustrated and there going to vote in the totalitarian one thinking at least it's change at last... It makes me | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. . The criminal justice system in America is criminal!. It's exactly what happens when you let the private sector take over for profit..... They look for customers!!! We've been over this a thousand times, the agent-principle problem applies to private and public sector, just in different ways. We've been over it, I just didn't agree with you .
Business looks for customers, if regulation hinders customers then business looks to reduce our remove regulation!.
In the US you get private prisons working with private social programmes working with bribed country judges ,under bribed regulatory provision and a private media that has interests!!.
You can basically do what the fuck you like providing
1 it doesn't get public
2 society isn't outraged by it
3 you control the people who punish you anyhow, so no real punishment!.
.
.
Come on... We both know that's how it works!
.
Chavs didn't just evolve they were helped along the way by a higher power, if you want a boogeyman it's money, it does what it does.
.
Look black Americans have failed massively in education, drugs, violence, sex crimes, robbery, gang violence, failed parenting, single motherhood.... All these things have got far worse since the 60s race equality laws... So either America is more racist today than the 60s or racism isn't the driving force??.
So if it's not racism driving it.... Then what is it?.
Could it be Mr fiddy made a point?
You look around the world and there's basically two ways to control society.
1 totalitarianism
2 wealth equality or a lesser gap between the margins.
.
Now from my mere mortal observations the west is decreasing number 2 which means??.
Yep number 1 is going to increase!.
Now as Courtney pointed out they've militarised the police for a reason, they know there going to have to increase number 1 route.
Black presidents, women presidents , liberal ones, pot smokers, it's like people keep voting for change and not getting it and now there getting frustrated and there going to vote in the totalitarian one thinking at least it's change at last... It makes me
"Objection your honour, false dichotomy. Wealth equality has never existed and never will. It wouldn't even be a good thing if it did. It's really irrelevant what the gap between the top and the bottom is. Very much a first world problem. The only thing that matters is whether the bottom and middle are improving their living standards or not. It is true that if too much wealth at the top of society is earned from rents then that is unlikely to happen, but treat the disease not the symptom. | |||
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" I certainly don't think the police are blameless, but likewise the stats don't lie. A black person is way more likely to be killed by another black person than a cop. I don't think that repeating the statistic that black men are more likely to die by other black men than by cops is necessarily good enough in this context. Someone can have multiple sources of distress. I mentioned the issue of poverty because it accounts for a lot of the violence in black communities. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but I'd bet that criminal behaviour is more common in poor white communities than it is it the general white population. When the US had general unemployment rates similar to those of black communities today we called it a great depression. So, we have a society that criminalizes historically black crimes to a greater degree than white crimes, then makes the punishements harsher, puts them through a criminal justice system that has been proven to be racially skewed, then takes the right to vote away from people who have committed felonies, makes it next to impossible for them to get jobs....which in turn makes those communities rife with crime for which we need more heaviliy armed police who have the impression that everyone is out to kill them. Those police are increaingly more likely to see certain people as "bad" and start from a position of defense. Part of the problem here is the poverty to begin with and part of the problem is our reaction to the fruits of that poverty (namely, the police). Maybe the fact that black men are likely to kill one another should be another source of discourse. Maybe it's part of my cops are so hostile in those communities. All of this should be part of the broader discussion, and the complexity of it all US why I don't really like the black lives matter movement. Simplifying it to black and white is harmful to them and to society as a whole. I know people who were white and caught in the same cycle. . The criminal justice system in America is criminal!. It's exactly what happens when you let the private sector take over for profit..... They look for customers!!! We've been over this a thousand times, the agent-principle problem applies to private and public sector, just in different ways. We've been over it, I just didn't agree with you .
Business looks for customers, if regulation hinders customers then business looks to reduce our remove regulation!.
In the US you get private prisons working with private social programmes working with bribed country judges ,under bribed regulatory provision and a private media that has interests!!.
You can basically do what the fuck you like providing
1 it doesn't get public
2 society isn't outraged by it
3 you control the people who punish you anyhow, so no real punishment!.
.
.
Come on... We both know that's how it works!
.
Chavs didn't just evolve they were helped along the way by a higher power, if you want a boogeyman it's money, it does what it does.
.
Look black Americans have failed massively in education, drugs, violence, sex crimes, robbery, gang violence, failed parenting, single motherhood.... All these things have got far worse since the 60s race equality laws... So either America is more racist today than the 60s or racism isn't the driving force??.
So if it's not racism driving it.... Then what is it?.
Could it be Mr fiddy made a point?
You look around the world and there's basically two ways to control society.
1 totalitarianism
2 wealth equality or a lesser gap between the margins.
.
Now from my mere mortal observations the west is decreasing number 2 which means??.
Yep number 1 is going to increase!.
Now as Courtney pointed out they've militarised the police for a reason, they know there going to have to increase number 1 route.
Black presidents, women presidents , liberal ones, pot smokers, it's like people keep voting for change and not getting it and now there getting frustrated and there going to vote in the totalitarian one thinking at least it's change at last... It makes me
Objection your honour, false dichotomy.
Wealth equality has never existed and never will. It wouldn't even be a good thing if it did.
It's really irrelevant what the gap between the top and the bottom is. Very much a first world problem.
The only thing that matters is whether the bottom and middle are improving their living standards or not.
It is true that if too much wealth at the top of society is earned from rents then that is unlikely to happen, but treat the disease not the symptom. ". They made the average shmucks number 2 asset in they're life a car! A car and people bought into that shit, look at me I've just spent 1 and a half years wages on my number 2 asset, a thing that depreciates faster than a falling house brick... I'm not on the average shmucks side here, I'm just pointing out what I see!. . . There going to finish off 6 out 7 people within ten to fifteen years anyhow, they know what every climate scientist in the world knows, were finished unless we reduce the world's population to a maximum of a billon! | |||
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" It is true that if too much wealth at the top of society is earned from rents then that is unlikely to happen, but treat the disease not the symptom. . They made the average shmucks number 2 asset in they're life a car! A car and people bought into that shit, look at me I've just spent 1 and a half years wages on my number 2 asset, a thing that depreciates faster than a falling house brick... I'm not on the average shmucks side here, I'm just pointing out what I see!. . . There going to finish off 6 out 7 people within ten to fifteen years anyhow, they know what every climate scientist in the world knows, were finished unless we reduce the world's population to a maximum of a billon! " Well we always need to planet hop once the sun burnt out anyway so just need to do that sooner rather than later is all. | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over"  | |||
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" It is true that if too much wealth at the top of society is earned from rents then that is unlikely to happen, but treat the disease not the symptom. . They made the average shmucks number 2 asset in they're life a car! A car and people bought into that shit, look at me I've just spent 1 and a half years wages on my number 2 asset, a thing that depreciates faster than a falling house brick... I'm not on the average shmucks side here, I'm just pointing out what I see!. . . There going to finish off 6 out 7 people within ten to fifteen years anyhow, they know what every climate scientist in the world knows, were finished unless we reduce the world's population to a maximum of a billon! Well we always need to planet hop once the sun burnt out anyway so just need to do that sooner rather than later is all. " Oh, I love it! A thread about black lives matter has evolved into a sci-fi novel!
Can I go to Pluto? I still believe it's a planet  | |||
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" It is true that if too much wealth at the top of society is earned from rents then that is unlikely to happen, but treat the disease not the symptom. . They made the average shmucks number 2 asset in they're life a car! A car and people bought into that shit, look at me I've just spent 1 and a half years wages on my number 2 asset, a thing that depreciates faster than a falling house brick... I'm not on the average shmucks side here, I'm just pointing out what I see!. . . There going to finish off 6 out 7 people within ten to fifteen years anyhow, they know what every climate scientist in the world knows, were finished unless we reduce the world's population to a maximum of a billon! Well we always need to planet hop once the sun burnt out anyway so just need to do that sooner rather than later is all. Oh, I love it! A thread about black lives matter has evolved into a sci-fi novel!
Can I go to Pluto? I still believe it's a planet "It go this out of hand and we're not even in a hot tub! Well in all seriousness, the sheer logistics of the looming demographics crisis mean that one of two things will happen: 1. The world will go into prolonged economic crisis that makes 1929 look like 1999 2. We develop a labour force of robots who produce an increasingly large proportion of our needs and whims That latter strategy involves artifical intelligence and ... well... you've seen terminator... | |||
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" It is true that if too much wealth at the top of society is earned from rents then that is unlikely to happen, but treat the disease not the symptom. . They made the average shmucks number 2 asset in they're life a car! A car and people bought into that shit, look at me I've just spent 1 and a half years wages on my number 2 asset, a thing that depreciates faster than a falling house brick... I'm not on the average shmucks side here, I'm just pointing out what I see!. . . There going to finish off 6 out 7 people within ten to fifteen years anyhow, they know what every climate scientist in the world knows, were finished unless we reduce the world's population to a maximum of a billon! Well we always need to planet hop once the sun burnt out anyway so just need to do that sooner rather than later is all. " . On a brier score the chance that were getting out of this solar system is about 0.01% I don't say that with glee just out of technical difficulty of the subject..... On a brier score do you know how rare earth is?. It's like super rare, needles in haystacks don't even come close it's like a grain of sand on a 500 mile long beach. When we fuck it up, not if but when, because let's face it, we treat the earth worse than we treat other animals and even worse than we treat other humans so when we fuck it up..... I'm not particularly bothered about extermination of human life, quite frankly we've been gifted the gift of all gifts and we've shat on it from a great height of look at me in my BMW aren't i just fucking great... Somebody slap me on the back!... No I really can't give a fuck about humans by and large there awful creatures.... What actually annoys me is we'll probably take all life with us leaving just bacteria and 500 million years of needless evolutionary chances to restart it..... And that's a crying shame. So if you really really want to fix the problem of social injustice, go right ahead but let's not pretend we can fix broken human nature with a system based on greed and finite resources coz that's just mental... We don't need economists we need therapists | |||
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" It is true that if too much wealth at the top of society is earned from rents then that is unlikely to happen, but treat the disease not the symptom. . They made the average shmucks number 2 asset in they're life a car! A car and people bought into that shit, look at me I've just spent 1 and a half years wages on my number 2 asset, a thing that depreciates faster than a falling house brick... I'm not on the average shmucks side here, I'm just pointing out what I see!. . . There going to finish off 6 out 7 people within ten to fifteen years anyhow, they know what every climate scientist in the world knows, were finished unless we reduce the world's population to a maximum of a billon! Well we always need to planet hop once the sun burnt out anyway so just need to do that sooner rather than later is all. . On a brier score the chance that were getting out of this solar system is about 0.01% I don't say that with glee just out of technical difficulty of the subject..... On a brier score do you know how rare earth is?. It's like super rare, needles in haystacks don't even come close it's like a grain of sand on a 500 mile long beach. When we fuck it up, not if but when, because let's face it, we treat the earth worse than we treat other animals and even worse than we treat other humans so when we fuck it up..... I'm not particularly bothered about extermination of human life, quite frankly we've been gifted the gift of all gifts and we've shat on it from a great height of look at me in my BMW aren't i just fucking great... Somebody slap me on the back!... No I really can't give a fuck about humans by and large there awful creatures.... What actually annoys me is we'll probably take all life with us leaving just bacteria and 500 million years of needless evolutionary chances to restart it..... And that's a crying shame. So if you really really want to fix the problem of social injustice, go right ahead but let's not pretend we can fix broken human nature with a system based on greed and finite resources coz that's just mental... We don't need economists we need therapists" Ummm brier score measures the retrospective accuracy of probabilistic forecasts. It doesn't do anything with future forecasts other than tell you how good the person making the forecast has been. That aside, you can sit there being a negative Nathan but as I say, there's a major flaw in this planet (i.e dependence on the sun which is a finite resource based on greed) so what's your great plan for when that burns out? | |||
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" It is true that if too much wealth at the top of society is earned from rents then that is unlikely to happen, but treat the disease not the symptom. . They made the average shmucks number 2 asset in they're life a car! A car and people bought into that shit, look at me I've just spent 1 and a half years wages on my number 2 asset, a thing that depreciates faster than a falling house brick... I'm not on the average shmucks side here, I'm just pointing out what I see!. . . There going to finish off 6 out 7 people within ten to fifteen years anyhow, they know what every climate scientist in the world knows, were finished unless we reduce the world's population to a maximum of a billon! Well we always need to planet hop once the sun burnt out anyway so just need to do that sooner rather than later is all. . On a brier score the chance that were getting out of this solar system is about 0.01% I don't say that with glee just out of technical difficulty of the subject..... On a brier score do you know how rare earth is?. It's like super rare, needles in haystacks don't even come close it's like a grain of sand on a 500 mile long beach. When we fuck it up, not if but when, because let's face it, we treat the earth worse than we treat other animals and even worse than we treat other humans so when we fuck it up..... I'm not particularly bothered about extermination of human life, quite frankly we've been gifted the gift of all gifts and we've shat on it from a great height of look at me in my BMW aren't i just fucking great... Somebody slap me on the back!... No I really can't give a fuck about humans by and large there awful creatures.... What actually annoys me is we'll probably take all life with us leaving just bacteria and 500 million years of needless evolutionary chances to restart it..... And that's a crying shame. So if you really really want to fix the problem of social injustice, go right ahead but let's not pretend we can fix broken human nature with a system based on greed and finite resources coz that's just mental... We don't need economists we need therapists Ummm brier score measures the retrospective accuracy of probabilistic forecasts. It doesn't do anything with future forecasts other than tell you how good the person making the forecast has been. That aside, you can sit there being a negative Nathan but as I say, there's a major flaw in this planet (i.e dependence on the sun which is a finite resource based on greed) so what's your great plan for when that burns out? " . We die!. The good news is that's a billon years away, we won't make fucking 20 years!. Do you know everybody always says the same thing, your such a doom and gloom person, the truth is I'm the exact opposite, I live life without a hint of gloom. I'm just going off the facts I've read, isn't that what making predictions is about?. You look at facts, you look at likelihoods you weigh up probability. . We can do robotic workers right now, there's nothing stopping us from making Saturday and Sunday the working week and Monday to Friday the days off,70% of most manual jobs could be replaced today by robots and technology... Capitalism didn't just randomly come about, it was a concept take us from tribalism to modern life, it's done it's job, were here.... The question is what now | |||
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" The good news is that's a billon years away, we won't make fucking 20 years!. Do you know everybody always says the same thing, your such a doom and gloom person, the truth is I'm the exact opposite, I live life without a hint of gloom. I'm just going off the facts I've read, isn't that what making predictions is about?. You look at facts, you look at likelihoods you weigh up probability. . We can do robotic workers right now, there's nothing stopping us from making Saturday and Sunday the working week and Monday to Friday the days off,70% of most manual jobs could be replaced today by robots and technology... Capitalism didn't just randomly come about, it was a concept take us from tribalism to modern life, it's done it's job, were here.... The question is what now" I'll bet much brier score we make 20+ years. Capitalism emerged long after we'd made the leap from tribes to states so go back to your history books on that one. About Personally, I recommend 'Origins of Political Order' by Francis Fukuyama. The first modern state was China in 210 BC. The first joint stock company wasn't before 960 AD. | |||
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"I see this thread has once again gone totally off-topic in a manner which seems to define the Poloitics forum. So; I'll attempt to address the topic in hand via Zack De La Rocha. "What? The Land of the Free? Whoever told you that is your enemy..."" . That's why they moved us out here away from the "normal" people | |||
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"I see this thread has once again gone totally off-topic in a manner which seems to define the Poloitics forum. So; I'll attempt to address the topic in hand via Zack De La Rocha. "What? The Land of the Free? Whoever told you that is your enemy...". That's why they moved us out here away from the "normal" people "At least nobody managed to link it to Brexit... yet | |||
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"I see this thread has once again gone totally off-topic in a manner which seems to define the Poloitics forum. So; I'll attempt to address the topic in hand via Zack De La Rocha. "What? The Land of the Free? Whoever told you that is your enemy...". That's why they moved us out here away from the "normal" people
At least nobody managed to link it to Brexit... yet ". Listen let me make this clear.... Nobody...I repeat NOBODY is to throw a stone until I blow this whistle... . Even if he does says brexit  | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over" I think you will find that the Americans do indeed use these terms Mexican American etc as they did when I lived there, in California, los Angeles .... everyone is sort of dual nationality as it were | |||
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"what i would say in a way is this.... there is a reason why you never hear the 3rd verse of "god save the queen" (clue... it talks about the killing of scots) there is a good reason why after WW2 germany only sing the 3rd verse of "deutschlandlied" (clue... because verses 1 and 2 are so connected with the nazi's) and there is a good reason why americans dont get to sing the 3rd verse of "the star spangled banner" (because it talks about murdering slaves!!) there are things that get attached to patriotism and nationalism... and the anthems for some is part of that... the protests are spreading to other sports as well.... women in the wnba are doing it, and it spread to college yesterday.... my school, michigan state, some players did.... our rival school. michigan, did it as well, some players at nebraska did as well...... about 100 students both black and white, joined in at the university of north carolina football game yuesterday.... including some cheerleaders and members of the university band.... it will be interesting to see if any carolina panthers do it today as they are playing at home in charlotte after the week that has happened there" But the difference is that British people and Germans manage to get along without dragging up the war every 5 minutes. If we do bring it up, we show respect to their dead albeit not their cause. Unlike BLM who will never shut up about the fact that black people were once slaves don't you know? | |||
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"what i would say in a way is this.... there is a reason why you never hear the 3rd verse of "god save the queen" (clue... it talks about the killing of scots) there is a good reason why after WW2 germany only sing the 3rd verse of "deutschlandlied" (clue... because verses 1 and 2 are so connected with the nazi's) and there is a good reason why americans dont get to sing the 3rd verse of "the star spangled banner" (because it talks about murdering slaves!!) there are things that get attached to patriotism and nationalism... and the anthems for some is part of that... the protests are spreading to other sports as well.... women in the wnba are doing it, and it spread to college yesterday.... my school, michigan state, some players did.... our rival school. michigan, did it as well, some players at nebraska did as well...... about 100 students both black and white, joined in at the university of north carolina football game yuesterday.... including some cheerleaders and members of the university band.... it will be interesting to see if any carolina panthers do it today as they are playing at home in charlotte after the week that has happened there" The whole of the WNBA I believe is.doing it despite both the nba and WNBA having a fines policy in place from a player in the 90s protest (Abdul+Jabbar I think), no fines have been issued yet. I mentioned on the carolina forum post that the panthers game will be interesting I just hope if.there is a protest its non violent. I agree with the footage being released but.doing so 24hrs before an event with 75000 people attending in the area is mind boggling. | |||
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" The whole of the WNBA I believe is.doing it despite both the nba and WNBA having a fines policy in place from a player in the 90s protest (Abdul+Jabbar I think), no fines have been issued yet. I mentioned on the carolina forum post that the panthers game will be interesting I just hope if.there is a protest its non violent. I agree with the footage being released but.doing so 24hrs before an event with 75000 people attending in the area is mind boggling." it was Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who didn't stand during games... and again he has been doing it for a long time before anyone noticed... it was only it was noticed and he did an interview about it that the NBA indefinately suspended him citing rules saying all people must stand he was allowed back in when the compromise was made that he would stand, but he would be allowed to cup his hands in muslim prayer during the anthem.... the NBA and the NBA players assoc are talking about this rule now because at least 15 nba so far have said they intend to "take a knee" or "raise a fist"..... | |||
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" The whole of the WNBA I believe is.doing it despite both the nba and WNBA having a fines policy in place from a player in the 90s protest (Abdul+Jabbar I think), no fines have been issued yet. I mentioned on the carolina forum post that the panthers game will be interesting I just hope if.there is a protest its non violent. I agree with the footage being released but.doing so 24hrs before an event with 75000 people attending in the area is mind boggling. it was Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who didn't stand during games... and again he has been doing it for a long time before anyone noticed... it was only it was noticed and he did an interview about it that the NBA indefinately suspended him citing rules saying all people must stand he was allowed back in when the compromise was made that he would stand, but he would be allowed to cup his hands in muslim prayer during the anthem.... the NBA and the NBA players assoc are talking about this rule now because at least 15 nba so far have said they intend to "take a knee" or "raise a fist"..... " Good, well I'm sure taking a knee and raising a fist will achieve a big deal of fuck all. This is really a new thing now, in the social media generation it's cool to protest as long as your protest requires fuck all effort and achieves nothing. Wasn't it 8 years ago everyone was chanting "yes we can"? That got them far... occupy movement... that achieved a lot... does anyone event remember the 'free tibet' lot from the 2008 olympics...? | |||
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" 2/ Sport has always been used as a political tool. Be it the NAZI Olympics of 1936 and Hitlers using the event to give credence to his racist beliefs or the use of Jesse Owens athletic prowess to debunk those beliefs." True, but sport has always been poorer for it. As a genuine sport lover, I wish politics would fuck off once in a while. How would theatre lovers feel if you couldn't sit through a musical without one of the cast making some bloody political protest? | |||
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" The whole of the WNBA I believe is.doing it despite both the nba and WNBA having a fines policy in place from a player in the 90s protest (Abdul+Jabbar I think), no fines have been issued yet. I mentioned on the carolina forum post that the panthers game will be interesting I just hope if.there is a protest its non violent. I agree with the footage being released but.doing so 24hrs before an event with 75000 people attending in the area is mind boggling. it was Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who didn't stand during games... and again he has been doing it for a long time before anyone noticed... it was only it was noticed and he did an interview about it that the NBA indefinately suspended him citing rules saying all people must stand he was allowed back in when the compromise was made that he would stand, but he would be allowed to cup his hands in muslim prayer during the anthem.... the NBA and the NBA players assoc are talking about this rule now because at least 15 nba so far have said they intend to "take a knee" or "raise a fist"..... Good, well I'm sure taking a knee and raising a fist will achieve a big deal of fuck all. This is really a new thing now, in the social media generation it's cool to protest as long as your protest requires fuck all effort and achieves nothing. Wasn't it 8 years ago everyone was chanting "yes we can"? That got them far... occupy movement... that achieved a lot... does anyone event remember the 'free tibet' lot from the 2008 olympics...? " Well as its raised the conversation in the states to a higher profile its definitely worth it. What do you want the players to do that takes effort as you put it? Is becoming (as voted) the most hated sports star in America not a commercial risk? As an NFL player very little of his contract is guaranteed so if the 49ers decided this is too much to deal with they could of cut him as he's currently not their starter. | |||
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" 2/ Sport has always been used as a political tool. Be it the NAZI Olympics of 1936 and Hitlers using the event to give credence to his racist beliefs or the use of Jesse Owens athletic prowess to debunk those beliefs. True, but sport has always been poorer for it. As a genuine sport lover, I wish politics would fuck off once in a while. How would theatre lovers feel if you couldn't sit through a musical without one of the cast making some bloody political protest? " Maybe not one of the cast but the musical and play writers have often based their work on political/social movement and events. | |||
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" The whole of the WNBA I believe is.doing it despite both the nba and WNBA having a fines policy in place from a player in the 90s protest (Abdul+Jabbar I think), no fines have been issued yet. I mentioned on the carolina forum post that the panthers game will be interesting I just hope if.there is a protest its non violent. I agree with the footage being released but.doing so 24hrs before an event with 75000 people attending in the area is mind boggling. it was Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who didn't stand during games... and again he has been doing it for a long time before anyone noticed... it was only it was noticed and he did an interview about it that the NBA indefinately suspended him citing rules saying all people must stand he was allowed back in when the compromise was made that he would stand, but he would be allowed to cup his hands in muslim prayer during the anthem.... the NBA and the NBA players assoc are talking about this rule now because at least 15 nba so far have said they intend to "take a knee" or "raise a fist"..... Good, well I'm sure taking a knee and raising a fist will achieve a big deal of fuck all. This is really a new thing now, in the social media generation it's cool to protest as long as your protest requires fuck all effort and achieves nothing. Wasn't it 8 years ago everyone was chanting "yes we can"? That got them far... occupy movement... that achieved a lot... does anyone event remember the 'free tibet' lot from the 2008 olympics...? Well as its raised the conversation in the states to a higher profile its definitely worth it. What do you want the players to do that takes effort as you put it? Is becoming (as voted) the most hated sports star in America not a commercial risk? As an NFL player very little of his contract is guaranteed so if the 49ers decided this is too much to deal with they could of cut him as he's currently not their starter. " Being "high profile" is supposed to be a means to an ends. I'm criticising a culture that treats it as a ends in itself. I'm saying that Facebook likes and retweets don't achieve jack shit on their own. In terms of what they could do that would achieve something, have a look at WSO as an example on this thread: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/552841 If you really want change then put some time or money into things like that. Or if you don't, feel good about yourself for making a hand jesture like people are going to remember it in a few years. | |||
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" 2/ Sport has always been used as a political tool. Be it the NAZI Olympics of 1936 and Hitlers using the event to give credence to his racist beliefs or the use of Jesse Owens athletic prowess to debunk those beliefs. True, but sport has always been poorer for it. As a genuine sport lover, I wish politics would fuck off once in a while. How would theatre lovers feel if you couldn't sit through a musical without one of the cast making some bloody political protest? Maybe not one of the cast but the musical and play writers have often based their work on political/social movement and events." OK, well sport isn't based on politics is it. So might you be annoyed if your production of the jungle book kept getting interrupted by BLM? | |||
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" The whole of the WNBA I believe is.doing it despite both the nba and WNBA having a fines policy in place from a player in the 90s protest (Abdul+Jabbar I think), no fines have been issued yet. I mentioned on the carolina forum post that the panthers game will be interesting I just hope if.there is a protest its non violent. I agree with the footage being released but.doing so 24hrs before an event with 75000 people attending in the area is mind boggling. it was Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who didn't stand during games... and again he has been doing it for a long time before anyone noticed... it was only it was noticed and he did an interview about it that the NBA indefinately suspended him citing rules saying all people must stand he was allowed back in when the compromise was made that he would stand, but he would be allowed to cup his hands in muslim prayer during the anthem.... the NBA and the NBA players assoc are talking about this rule now because at least 15 nba so far have said they intend to "take a knee" or "raise a fist"..... Good, well I'm sure taking a knee and raising a fist will achieve a big deal of fuck all. This is really a new thing now, in the social media generation it's cool to protest as long as your protest requires fuck all effort and achieves nothing. Wasn't it 8 years ago everyone was chanting "yes we can"? That got them far... occupy movement... that achieved a lot... does anyone event remember the 'free tibet' lot from the 2008 olympics...? Well as its raised the conversation in the states to a higher profile its definitely worth it. What do you want the players to do that takes effort as you put it? Is becoming (as voted) the most hated sports star in America not a commercial risk? As an NFL player very little of his contract is guaranteed so if the 49ers decided this is too much to deal with they could of cut him as he's currently not their starter. Being "high profile" is supposed to be a means to an ends. I'm criticising a culture that treats it as a ends in itself. I'm saying that Facebook likes and retweets don't achieve jack shit on their own. In terms of what they could do that would achieve something, have a look at WSO as an example on this thread: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/552841 If you really want change then put some time or money into things like that. Or if you don't, feel good about yourself for making a hand jesture like people are going to remember it in a few years. " Well kaepernick has donated $1m to various charities that help communities in the San Fran area and also pledged any proceeds he receives from his shirt sales skyrocketing to these local projects. So he's hardly just kneeling down. We live in an era where more young people are likely to pay more attention to what a pop star or sportsman says that a politician so any interest they generate to the younger generations to learn and read more about what's going on is a good.thing in my book. | |||
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" The whole of the WNBA I believe is.doing it despite both the nba and WNBA having a fines policy in place from a player in the 90s protest (Abdul+Jabbar I think), no fines have been issued yet. I mentioned on the carolina forum post that the panthers game will be interesting I just hope if.there is a protest its non violent. I agree with the footage being released but.doing so 24hrs before an event with 75000 people attending in the area is mind boggling. it was Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who didn't stand during games... and again he has been doing it for a long time before anyone noticed... it was only it was noticed and he did an interview about it that the NBA indefinately suspended him citing rules saying all people must stand he was allowed back in when the compromise was made that he would stand, but he would be allowed to cup his hands in muslim prayer during the anthem.... the NBA and the NBA players assoc are talking about this rule now because at least 15 nba so far have said they intend to "take a knee" or "raise a fist"..... Good, well I'm sure taking a knee and raising a fist will achieve a big deal of fuck all. This is really a new thing now, in the social media generation it's cool to protest as long as your protest requires fuck all effort and achieves nothing. Wasn't it 8 years ago everyone was chanting "yes we can"? That got them far... occupy movement... that achieved a lot... does anyone event remember the 'free tibet' lot from the 2008 olympics...? Well as its raised the conversation in the states to a higher profile its definitely worth it. What do you want the players to do that takes effort as you put it? Is becoming (as voted) the most hated sports star in America not a commercial risk? As an NFL player very little of his contract is guaranteed so if the 49ers decided this is too much to deal with they could of cut him as he's currently not their starter. Being "high profile" is supposed to be a means to an ends. I'm criticising a culture that treats it as a ends in itself. I'm saying that Facebook likes and retweets don't achieve jack shit on their own. In terms of what they could do that would achieve something, have a look at WSO as an example on this thread: https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/552841 If you really want change then put some time or money into things like that. Or if you don't, feel good about yourself for making a hand jesture like people are going to remember it in a few years. Well kaepernick has donated $1m to various charities that help communities in the San Fran area and also pledged any proceeds he receives from his shirt sales skyrocketing to these local projects. So he's hardly just kneeling down. We live in an era where more young people are likely to pay more attention to what a pop star or sportsman says that a politician so any interest they generate to the younger generations to learn and read more about what's going on is a good.thing in my book." Fair enough, in my opinion it isn't. Do you agree or disagree that some people start to see "raising awareness" as an ends in itself rather than actually measuring some sort of achievement? If not, what do you think the three popular movements I mentioned achieved? | |||
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"Another annoying thing I dislike is this "African American" term... What's all that about, nobody refers to European American or Chinese American or Mexican American. What's it mean? Your of African descent, well join the fucking club we all are!.... Most "African Americans" have been in America for centuries there about as African as i am.... Sorry as you were...rant over I think you will find that the Americans do indeed use these terms Mexican American etc as they did when I lived there, in California, los Angeles .... everyone is sort of dual nationality as it were" . Well it's very abstract like African American, it basically lumps anyone south of Texas into Mexican American, which was my point about African American, it's a fucking nonsense most "African American" no diddly shit about Africa, they've been in the USA longer than most European Americans, it's just another way to Carole you into believing into some bollocks that because your skin's dark and their skins dark you have some history or kinship. | |||
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"Here we go again... Fabio asks: In light of many shooting incidents and the violent backlashes they have caused in the USA should Colin Caepernick continue his 'sitdown protest' and should sport and politics be so intertwined and we end up with the usual pro state/pro establishment poster on one side of the fence and the pro change on the other. Well firstly in answer to your 2 questions Fabio: 1/ Yes he should continue his protest. If it was important enough to him that he felt he had to start it then it must be important enough not to stop because the establishment do not like it or the publicity it is generating. 2/ Sport has always been used as a political tool. Be it the NAZI Olympics of 1936 and Hitlers using the event to give credence to his racist beliefs or the use of Jesse Owens athletic prowess to debunk those beliefs. Or the use of the staging of free games in amphitheatres in the Roman Empire to entertain and control the mob. In fact sport has been used as a substitute to war (think Native Indian lacrosse). As for those quoting police chiefs dismissing the organisations that have been formed in response to the police violence being suffered by their communities as being nothing but criminal gangs looking for ways to cover their criminality. Name me one establishment enforcer who has publicly said they were deliberately subjugating the population or a section of the population because that was their job before the establishment they were working for was overthrown. In fact we now know that particular defence as the Nuremberg Defence and we no longer allow it." . So what your saying is the black cop of Minnesota, the black major of Minnesota, the 18 black of 22 town council members, the black district attorney of Minnesota and the 52% black police force are all just stooges for a grand KKK conspiracy and that if we overthrow the white supremacists who are really in charge.... All these black people will come out and say....I was only following orders? | |||
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"So what your saying is the black cop of Minnesota, the black major of Minnesota, the 18 black of 22 town council members, the black district attorney of Minnesota and the 52% black police force are all just stooges for a grand KKK conspiracy and that if we overthrow the white supremacists who are really in charge.... All these black people will come out and say....I was only following orders?" No, I am SHOUTING it! Just as the NAZIs used 'elite' Jews to organise and run the ghettos in Eastern Europe and 'specially selected' Jews to be the instruments of their will in the concentration and death camps, the US uses its own population to control its self for the benefit of the establishment (as does every establishment in the world), and there are always those who will do the will of the state without asking questions if they think it either gives them power or advantage over their piers. | |||
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"So what your saying is the black cop of Minnesota, the black major of Minnesota, the 18 black of 22 town council members, the black district attorney of Minnesota and the 52% black police force are all just stooges for a grand KKK conspiracy and that if we overthrow the white supremacists who are really in charge.... All these black people will come out and say....I was only following orders? No, I am SHOUTING it! Just as the NAZIs used 'elite' Jews to organise and run the ghettos in Eastern Europe and 'specially selected' Jews to be the instruments of their will in the concentration and death camps, the US uses its own population to control its self for the benefit of the establishment (as does every establishment in the world), and there are always those who will do the will of the state without asking questions if they think it either gives them power or advantage over their piers. " It always boils down to a conspiracy with lefties... | |||
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"It always boils down to a conspiracy with lefties... " And those like you always use others political beliefs as a way to reject anything they dont want to hear. Then when there is another war crimes or crimes against humanity tribunal your then find reasons to refuse to admit you gave support to the criminals. while those who gave orders say 'I did nothing, I was not there' and those who committed the crimes say 'I was only obeying orders'! And just to be clear you can go back through recorded history and see the same 'divide and conquer' tactics used again and again. That you refuse to see it being used in the US shows exactly how well conditioned you have been. And sorry to break this to you, but I do not know of a single establishment in the world that does not use this device to control its population. By the way, just as a little aside if I go back through posts here would I find you were one of those who supported South Yorkshire Police and accused those who said the police and government of the day were involved in a cover up were conspiracy theorists? | |||
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"It always boils down to a conspiracy with lefties... And those like you always use others political beliefs as a way to reject anything they dont want to hear. Then when there is another war crimes or crimes against humanity tribunal your then find reasons to refuse to admit you gave support to the criminals. while those who gave orders say 'I did nothing, I was not there' and those who committed the crimes say 'I was only obeying orders'! And just to be clear you can go back through recorded history and see the same 'divide and conquer' tactics used again and again. That you refuse to see it being used in the US shows exactly how well conditioned you have been. And sorry to break this to you, but I do not know of a single establishment in the world that does not use this device to control its population. By the way, just as a little aside if I go back through posts here would I find you were one of those who supported South Yorkshire Police and accused those who said the police and government of the day were involved in a cover up were conspiracy theorists?" I have no idea what you are talking about with south Yorkshire Police? Have you seen the equation from Dr Grimes of Oxford University that predicts how long a real conspiracy could stay hidden? It's not that conspiracies never happen, it's more that they don't stay hidden very well. What the equation shows is that its extremely unlikely a genuine and large conspiracy could stay hidden for more than 4 years. The larger the conspiracy, the more people needed to carry it out, the more people involved, the harder it is to keep concealed. | |||
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"I have no idea what you are talking about with south Yorkshire Police?" Of course you dont... "Have you seen the equation from Dr Grimes of Oxford University that predicts how long a real conspiracy could stay hidden?" No, and whats more I am about to prove it is crap! "It's not that conspiracies never happen, it's more that they don't stay hidden very well. What the equation shows is that its extremely unlikely a genuine and large conspiracy could stay hidden for more than 4 years. The larger the conspiracy, the more people needed to carry it out, the more people involved, the harder it is to keep concealed. " You have never heard of south Yorkshire Police. How about the Hillsborough Disaster? South Yorkshire Police successfully conspired to cover that up for 20 years and it eventually took 27 years to route out most of the truth. Then there was the Rotherham child sex abuse scandal, South Yorkshire Police and Rotherham council were able to hide the evidence of that from 1997 to 2013. Now that is 2 major conspiracies both of which were denied and lasted for 16 and 27 years respectively, and both involving South Yorkshire Police Force and overlapping! Now what do you and your quoted prof say about that? | |||
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"I have no idea what you are talking about with south Yorkshire Police? Of course you dont... Have you seen the equation from Dr Grimes of Oxford University that predicts how long a real conspiracy could stay hidden? No, and whats more I am about to prove it is crap! It's not that conspiracies never happen, it's more that they don't stay hidden very well. What the equation shows is that its extremely unlikely a genuine and large conspiracy could stay hidden for more than 4 years. The larger the conspiracy, the more people needed to carry it out, the more people involved, the harder it is to keep concealed. You have never heard of south Yorkshire Police. How about the Hillsborough Disaster? South Yorkshire Police successfully conspired to cover that up for 20 years and it eventually took 27 years to route out most of the truth. Then there was the Rotherham child sex abuse scandal, South Yorkshire Police and Rotherham council were able to hide the evidence of that from 1997 to 2013. Now that is 2 major conspiracies both of which were denied and lasted for 16 and 27 years respectively, and both involving South Yorkshire Police Force and overlapping! Now what do you and your quoted prof say about that?" Got a link to the thread where I apparently say Hillsborough wasn't a cover up? What I say is that your evidence is flawed. If you are counting the end date as the conclusion of a full on investigation then of course that takes longer, the whole fecking Iraq enquiry took 7 years. | |||
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"So what your saying is the black cop of Minnesota, the black major of Minnesota, the 18 black of 22 town council members, the black district attorney of Minnesota and the 52% black police force are all just stooges for a grand KKK conspiracy and that if we overthrow the white supremacists who are really in charge.... All these black people will come out and say....I was only following orders? No, I am SHOUTING it! Just as the NAZIs used 'elite' Jews to organise and run the ghettos in Eastern Europe and 'specially selected' Jews to be the instruments of their will in the concentration and death camps, the US uses its own population to control its self for the benefit of the establishment (as does every establishment in the world), and there are always those who will do the will of the state without asking questions if they think it either gives them power or advantage over their piers. " Best to just keep the whites in any position of authority then eh? | |||
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"Got a link to the thread where I apparently say Hillsborough wasn't a cover up? What I say is that your evidence is flawed. If you are counting the end date as the conclusion of a full on investigation then of course that takes longer, the whole fecking Iraq enquiry took 7 years. " Really? This trick again? It is becoming a bit repetitive. You jump to defend the indefensible (provided it is a fascist or racist cause). You quote Dr A, B , C or Prof X, Y, Z. You then add in some pseudo scientific mathematical formula to give extra credence to your position and justification for dismissing what you dont want to hear. Then when you get taken apart you attempt to subvert the proof that you are wrong by providing more proof that you are wrong. I have to say, if these were academic debates over things like the price of butter in Belgium then I would be applauding your debating skills. But these are serious issues and you continually support the side of division and exploitation and demanding the right to exploit while complaining about how you are exploited! To be honest I have come to the conclusion that you are a genuine fascist hypocrite. | |||
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"Got a link to the thread where I apparently say Hillsborough wasn't a cover up? What I say is that your evidence is flawed. If you are counting the end date as the conclusion of a full on investigation then of course that takes longer, the whole fecking Iraq enquiry took 7 years. Really? This trick again? It is becoming a bit repetitive. You jump to defend the indefensible (provided it is a fascist or racist cause). You quote Dr A, B , C or Prof X, Y, Z. You then add in some pseudo scientific mathematical formula to give extra credence to your position and justification for dismissing what you dont want to hear. Then when you get taken apart you attempt to subvert the proof that you are wrong by providing more proof that you are wrong. I have to say, if these were academic debates over things like the price of butter in Belgium then I would be applauding your debating skills. But these are serious issues and you continually support the side of division and exploitation and demanding the right to exploit while complaining about how you are exploited! To be honest I have come to the conclusion that you are a genuine fascist hypocrite. " So that's a no you can't find a link because it didn't happen. Well looks like that conspiracy didn't last long. You may think my 'evidence' is rubbish, but at least I have some. Your arguement boils down to "it's racism, because it must be". Or "it's racism, because there's this big man and he tells all the little men what to do and they are all racist, trust me, I got a YouTube video and everything". The main reason I know your left wing conspiracies are bullshit is because you ignore the most overwhelmingly obvious fact that is all around you constantly. Namely, the common man has never ever, in the history of the world, enjoyed a better standard of living. Especially not in your soviet paradise. So if it is all a big conspiracy then thank fuck for that because it's a brilliant conspiracy that is working very well for this country. | |||
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"So what your saying is the black cop of Minnesota, the black major of Minnesota, the 18 black of 22 town council members, the black district attorney of Minnesota and the 52% black police force are all just stooges for a grand KKK conspiracy and that if we overthrow the white supremacists who are really in charge.... All these black people will come out and say....I was only following orders? No, I am SHOUTING it! Just as the NAZIs used 'elite' Jews to organise and run the ghettos in Eastern Europe and 'specially selected' Jews to be the instruments of their will in the concentration and death camps, the US uses its own population to control its self for the benefit of the establishment (as does every establishment in the world), and there are always those who will do the will of the state without asking questions if they think it either gives them power or advantage over their piers. " . Well it's an interesting theory but one that doesn't really stack up against the evidence!. For starters the Nazi regime was a military dictatorship, the US for all it's faults just isn't!. I just don't belive the vast majority of killings by us police officers are racially motivated, I think there's a few and I think those need to be properly investigated and punished but 90% of them are just cops who've spent too long in an environment of high crime, they've got itchy trigger fingers because A they can lawfully and B they've seen to much shit in they're day to day life's to be empathetic to the situation. It's entirely possible there is a giant white supremacist KKK conspiracy, I just find it highly highly unlikely given the evidence | |||
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"wish we were living in the 1960's today, such an amazing decade "Some people still are | |||
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"wish we were living in the 1960's today, such an amazing decade
Some people still are "do "some people" still - tar & feather  | |||
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"I just don't belive the vast majority of killings by us police officers are racially motivated, I think there's a few and I think those need to be properly investigated and punished but 90% of them are just cops who've spent too long in an environment of high crime, they've got itchy trigger fingers because A they can lawfully and B they've seen to much shit in they're day to day life's to be empathetic to the situation. " I agree for example Officer Vinson has a clean disciplinary history and he is, African-American, the same race as Mr Keith Scott - the person he shot after continuously requesting he lay down his gun. . What do we know about Officer Vinson? Officer Vinson graduated in 2013 with a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice and a master’s degree in executive leadership . What do we know about Mr. Scott Mr. Scott effectively forfeited his right to carry a gun in 2005, when he was convicted in the shooting of a man in San Antonio and sentenced to prison Mr Scott actively smoked illegal drugs and was involved in a number of crimes. . | |||
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"I just don't belive the vast majority of killings by us police officers are racially motivated, I think there's a few and I think those need to be properly investigated and punished but 90% of them are just cops who've spent too long in an environment of high crime, they've got itchy trigger fingers because A they can lawfully and B they've seen to much shit in they're day to day life's to be empathetic to the situation. I agree for example Officer Vinson has a clean disciplinary history and he is, African-American, the same race as Mr Keith Scott - the person he shot after continuously requesting he lay down his gun. . What do we know about Officer Vinson? Officer Vinson graduated in 2013 with a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice and a master’s degree in executive leadership . What do we know about Mr. Scott Mr. Scott effectively forfeited his right to carry a gun in 2005, when he was convicted in the shooting of a man in San Antonio and sentenced to prison Mr Scott actively smoked illegal drugs and was involved in a number of crimes. ." Didn't you read the thread? We have scientific evidence that Vinson is a "coconut" and an evidence based theory that he is part of a network of stooges working for the iluminati. Or maybe you did read it and you thought it was bullshit too? | |||
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"I just don't belive the vast majority of killings by us police officers are racially motivated, I think there's a few and I think those need to be properly investigated and punished but 90% of them are just cops who've spent too long in an environment of high crime, they've got itchy trigger fingers because A they can lawfully and B they've seen to much shit in they're day to day life's to be empathetic to the situation. I agree for example Officer Vinson has a clean disciplinary history and he is, African-American, the same race as Mr Keith Scott - the person he shot after continuously requesting he lay down his gun. . What do we know about Officer Vinson? Officer Vinson graduated in 2013 with a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice and a master’s degree in executive leadership . What do we know about Mr. Scott Mr. Scott effectively forfeited his right to carry a gun in 2005, when he was convicted in the shooting of a man in San Antonio and sentenced to prison Mr Scott actively smoked illegal drugs and was involved in a number of crimes. . Didn't you read the thread? We have scientific evidence that Vinson is a "coconut" and an evidence based theory that he is part of a network of stooges working for the iluminati. Or maybe you did read it and you thought it was bullshit too? " Yes I did read and you are correct (b/s) although it was a difficult decision to determine who in all probability would be most honest and law abiding; one who with a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice and a master’s degree in executive leadership served the law or one who was convicted in the shooting of a man in San Antonio and sentenced to prison, continued to smoke illegal drugs and carried illegal weapons a very difficult decision indeed | |||
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