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"I was intrigued when the lovely Ms Sturgeon addressed the Nation earlier this week amid 'forecasts' of between £1.7 Bn and £11 Bn damage to the Scottish economy that 'will be caused by Brexit'. Despite drilling down into the numbers I couldn't fathom it out. And then the penny dropped: "Scottish economy deficit almost £15bn" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37167975 "Scottish deficit grows to nearly £15bn as oil revenues collapse" https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/24/scottish-finances-worsen-fall-oil-revenues-15bn-deficit "Scotland's huge deficit 'blows £15bn hole in case for independence' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/24/scotlands-huge-deficit-blows-15bn-hole-in-case-for-independence/ The wee lassie was getting her strike in first to deflect the media from the impending bad news. The news that the SNP Government had failed yet again to manage the Scottish economy as it should and its deficit in 2015 at £15 Bn was bigger than that in in 2014 at £12.4 Bn and bigger than 2013 at £11 Bn. Some £38 Billion in three years. So my questions are: Has the woman any credibility in suggesting the SNP could make a decent go of an independent Scotland? Has the SNP any ability to restore a surplus to the Scottish economy before any Independence? Is there any rational reason for calling 'IndyRef2' given the EU would never allow such a basket case economy to join under its rules and the Eurozone could do without another Greece and Italy?" Think you may be onto something there 
As for a second referendum, I think Scotland should be allowed to pursue that line if there is a genuine desire for one
Perhaps Scotland should have the opportunity to determine whether they can financially sustain themselves before they get that second referendum, as far as is possible while they are part of the United Kingdom. Time will tell, sooner rather than later I suspect! | |||
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"A while back I was in a chemist getting a prescription and was behind a Scottish guy who was indignant because he had to pay for his. Becaus he got his free while at home but not here, I wonder what will happen if they ever do go independant will it still be free then ?" If they have to live by their means then no I don't think it will continue | |||
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"A while back I was in a chemist getting a prescription and was behind a Scottish guy who was indignant because he had to pay for his. Becaus he got his free while at home but not here, I wonder what will happen if they ever do go independant will it still be free then ? If they have to live by their means then no I don't think it will continue" There are a lot of privileges enjoyed by Scots people that are not shared by the rest of the UK. The SNP are therefore spending more than their revenues, as they have always done given their Socialist tendencies, which means they have always run a deficit even when oil was at $100 a barrel. The extra amount spent on a Scots person compared to the rest of the UK is now some £1600. That cannot possibly be either right or sustainable. So how will the SNP reduce that deficit? And who will the SNP blame when they don't? Brexit? Sturgeon sowed those seeds earlier this week. | |||
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"A while back I was in a chemist getting a prescription and was behind a Scottish guy who was indignant because he had to pay for his. Becaus he got his free while at home but not here, I wonder what will happen if they ever do go independant will it still be free then ? If they have to live by their means then no I don't think it will continue" Well it depends doesn't it. As an independent nation they could chose to pay higher taxes to receive more government services. I can't imagine that they would be spending much on Defence. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? " I would be sad if Scotland voted to leave the UK, I think its better when we work together, thats why I think we should remain in the EU too. I don't really understand the SNP, work with the EU, but not the rest of the UK position, or other position of the UK should leave the EU, but Scotland should stay in the UK. They both of them seem to be contradictory to me. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? " What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? " . No not in the slightest, I've always been in favour of democratic decisions be they good or bad ones based from my view point. As somebody with family living in Scotland I can see both sides of the case, firstly I think every nation should stand on their own two feet, to that point I would like to say that's the point of the UK... We are one nation... However the problem I see is that we still have the old habit of calling ourselves Scottish, welsh, Irish and English despite abandoning those "countries" 300 years ago and becoming British... So the lesson from history is... If we wanna really move on, I suggest we move on...I love history and I love historical culture but...I don't wanna drive a traction engine or go back to Steam trains or make my six year old work under looms.... Moving on means moving on and letting go of the past... That's the bit I think we all struggle with in reality | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent." Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU." . How can two countries that don't exist leave something they never joined | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU.. How can two countries that don't exist leave something they never joined" See Greenland. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU." No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. " Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why? | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU.. How can two countries that don't exist leave something they never joined See Greenland." . Greenland and Denmark are completely different to the UK... Greenland is more comparable to the falklands | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?" . Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on" Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!  | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?" No it would,nt bother me in the slightest nor would it bother me if Scotland got independence and rejoined the EU. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond! "In your dreams | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams"Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries. "Do you mean those younger, richer, better educated people that spend most of their spare time following their phones looking for imaginary beasties if you do I think the EU will think we have done them a favour by leaving.  | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries. "Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it.... | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it...."Well which group describes you best? | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it....
Well which group describes you best?""Voter" | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Do you mean those younger, richer, better educated people that spend most of their spare time following their phones looking for imaginary beasties if you do I think the EU will think we have done them a favour by leaving. "The younger ones who can't afford to buy a house?  | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it....
Well which group describes you best?
"Voter""yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/ The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%. Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave. http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave. A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension. Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave. A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave. White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain. So here's the data from two different sources which support each other. I don't really understand why some people seem to be ashamed of the other people who voted with them. If you think that there is something wrong with your side, maybe you should change sides. There were plenty of high profile swaps during the campaign. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it....
Well which group describes you best?
"Voter"
yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.
Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.
A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.
White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.
So here's the data from two different sources which support each other.
I don't really understand why some people seem to be ashamed of the other people who voted with them. If you think that there is something wrong with your side, maybe you should change sides. There were plenty of high profile swaps during the campaign."You are misleading people again. Same shit different day. lets be clear: No one knows how people voted, for what reason, their educational background or any other damn thing. Why? Because there were only two boxes on that ballot paper: 'Remain' or 'Leave'. Nothing else. So this wonderful piece of 'factual data' you cook up turns out to be a Poll. Nothing more or less. You know the sort of 'Poll' that had Brexit 10 points down on June 22nd? Had you taken the trouble to actually read the data rather than the result you wish to portray you will have found this: YouGov Survey Results Sample Size: 5455 UK Adults Fieldwork: 23rd - 24th June 2016 Yes. 5,455 adults. Out of a vote of some 35 million. And remind us again what side was the Government on? yes Remain so it is trying to denegrate and put down those who had the temerity to vote against the Governments wishes. 5,455 people and we don't even know for sure whether they actually voted ....   | |||
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" I don't really understand why some people seem to be ashamed of the other people who voted with them. If you think that there is something wrong with your side, maybe you should change sides. There were plenty of high profile swaps during the campaign." . All that says to me is that working class people have been utterly screwed over by high immigration while the wealthier have prospered by it!.... They've just got enough education it seems to have realised it? | |||
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"As the OP can I ask people to avoid this being dragged into yet another Brexit debate by one individual? I know I haven't helped but its all I can ask. Its about how Scotland would manage as an Independent country given the state of her finances. Thank you." . I think there'd manage just fine, were really taking about wether there'd be better off or not. I tend to think there'd be worse off financially for reasons stated above but probably better off in mind set.... If your going to live by calling yourself Scottish then Scotland should stand on its own two feet and fully autonomous, it would give the people who live their some self worth. However if we can get over this Scottish/English/welsh/Irish bollocks and call ourselves British as one nation, then in reality who gives a shit wether which bits generate more than they bring in.... It would be no different to saying cornwall should fuck off and stand on its own two feet, we don't say that because mentally cornwall is "us"... I think to go forward you need to let go of the past. The reason I dislike multi culturalism is it harbours deeper problems, it separates us not integrates us, I think the USA have done a much better job of assimilating foreigners into being American than the British have, we can't even assimilate ourselves it would seem. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it....
Well which group describes you best?
"Voter"
yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.
Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.
A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.
White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.
So here's the data from two different sources which support each other.
I don't really understand why some people seem to be ashamed of the other people who voted with them. If you think that there is something wrong with your side, maybe you should change sides. There were plenty of high profile swaps during the campaign.
You are misleading people again. Same shit different day. lets be clear: No one knows how people voted, for what reason, their educational background or any other damn thing. Why? Because there were only two boxes on that ballot paper: 'Remain' or 'Leave'. Nothing else.
So this wonderful piece of 'factual data' you cook up turns out to be a Poll. Nothing more or less. You know the sort of 'Poll' that had Brexit 10 points down on June 22nd? Had you taken the trouble to actually read the data rather than the result you wish to portray you will have found this:
YouGov Survey Results
Sample Size: 5455 UK Adults
Fieldwork: 23rd - 24th June 2016
Yes. 5,455 adults. Out of a vote of some 35 million.
And remind us again what side was the Government on? yes Remain so it is trying to denegrate and put down those who had the temerity to vote against the Governments wishes.
5,455 people and we don't even know for sure whether they actually voted .... "Let's be clear, we DO know how people voted, because people ask them. That's how polling works. One of these polls was 5,455 people, I think the Ashcroft poll was about 17,000 people, and the Vote Leave campaign polling data polled 1.1m people and found that more than 1 million people who voted Leave wanted to change their vote to Remain. YouGov is a polling company, it's not actually the government. However yet again you are attacking the source of the data, rather than looking at the data. | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it....
Well which group describes you best?
"Voter"
yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.
Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.
A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.
White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.
So here's the data from two different sources which support each other.
I don't really understand why some people seem to be ashamed of the other people who voted with them. If you think that there is something wrong with your side, maybe you should change sides. There were plenty of high profile swaps during the campaign.
You are misleading people again. Same shit different day. lets be clear: No one knows how people voted, for what reason, their educational background or any other damn thing. Why? Because there were only two boxes on that ballot paper: 'Remain' or 'Leave'. Nothing else.
So this wonderful piece of 'factual data' you cook up turns out to be a Poll. Nothing more or less. You know the sort of 'Poll' that had Brexit 10 points down on June 22nd? Had you taken the trouble to actually read the data rather than the result you wish to portray you will have found this:
YouGov Survey Results
Sample Size: 5455 UK Adults
Fieldwork: 23rd - 24th June 2016
Yes. 5,455 adults. Out of a vote of some 35 million.
And remind us again what side was the Government on? yes Remain so it is trying to denegrate and put down those who had the temerity to vote against the Governments wishes.
5,455 people and we don't even know for sure whether they actually voted ....
Let's be clear, we DO know how people voted, because people ask them. That's how polling works. One of these polls was 5,455 people, I think the Ashcroft poll was about 17,000 people, and the Vote Leave campaign polling data polled 1.1m people and found that more than 1 million people who voted Leave wanted to change their vote to Remain.
YouGov is a polling company, it's not actually the government. However yet again you are attacking the source of the data, rather than looking at the data. "Lets clear this up once and for all. Can you please provide the voting slips for all those people polled? Naturally each slip will need evidence it belonged to the individual. If you can't provide that the polls you quote are meaningless. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? " That's because the thread isn't worth commenting on, the OP has proven to be extremely bitter towards the SNP and hasn't been favourable in the past regarding Scotland so I will sit back and let others comment | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it....
Well which group describes you best?
"Voter"
yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.
Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.
A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.
White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.
So here's the data from two different sources which support each other.
I don't really understand why some people seem to be ashamed of the other people who voted with them. If you think that there is something wrong with your side, maybe you should change sides. There were plenty of high profile swaps during the campaign.
You are misleading people again. Same shit different day. lets be clear: No one knows how people voted, for what reason, their educational background or any other damn thing. Why? Because there were only two boxes on that ballot paper: 'Remain' or 'Leave'. Nothing else.
So this wonderful piece of 'factual data' you cook up turns out to be a Poll. Nothing more or less. You know the sort of 'Poll' that had Brexit 10 points down on June 22nd? Had you taken the trouble to actually read the data rather than the result you wish to portray you will have found this:
YouGov Survey Results
Sample Size: 5455 UK Adults
Fieldwork: 23rd - 24th June 2016
Yes. 5,455 adults. Out of a vote of some 35 million.
And remind us again what side was the Government on? yes Remain so it is trying to denegrate and put down those who had the temerity to vote against the Governments wishes.
5,455 people and we don't even know for sure whether they actually voted ....
Let's be clear, we DO know how people voted, because people ask them. That's how polling works. One of these polls was 5,455 people, I think the Ashcroft poll was about 17,000 people, and the Vote Leave campaign polling data polled 1.1m people and found that more than 1 million people who voted Leave wanted to change their vote to Remain.
YouGov is a polling company, it's not actually the government. However yet again you are attacking the source of the data, rather than looking at the data.
Lets clear this up once and for all. Can you please provide the voting slips for all those people polled? Naturally each slip will need evidence it belonged to the individual.
If you can't provide that the polls you quote are meaningless.
"If polls were meaningless, polling companies wouldn't exist. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? That's because the thread isn't worth commenting on, the OP has proven to be extremely bitter towards the SNP and hasn't been favourable in the past regarding Scotland so I will sit back and let others comment "  | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? That's because the thread isn't worth commenting on, the OP has proven to be extremely bitter towards the SNP and hasn't been favourable in the past regarding Scotland so I will sit back and let others comment " So being a financial basket case due to the policies of your Government is not worth commenting on and has no relevance to the case for Independence? Interesting. And do please post where I have made any disparaging remarks about Scotland itself or the Scots as a people. However if you support a bunch like the SNP then don't be surprised if people think you are a shilling short of a quid ... But then people say the same thing about this Englishman who votes Tory | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it....
Well which group describes you best?
"Voter"
yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.
Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.
A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.
White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.
So here's the data from two different sources which support each other.
I don't really understand why some people seem to be ashamed of the other people who voted with them. If you think that there is something wrong with your side, maybe you should change sides. There were plenty of high profile swaps during the campaign.
You are misleading people again. Same shit different day. lets be clear: No one knows how people voted, for what reason, their educational background or any other damn thing. Why? Because there were only two boxes on that ballot paper: 'Remain' or 'Leave'. Nothing else.
So this wonderful piece of 'factual data' you cook up turns out to be a Poll. Nothing more or less. You know the sort of 'Poll' that had Brexit 10 points down on June 22nd? Had you taken the trouble to actually read the data rather than the result you wish to portray you will have found this:
YouGov Survey Results
Sample Size: 5455 UK Adults
Fieldwork: 23rd - 24th June 2016
Yes. 5,455 adults. Out of a vote of some 35 million.
And remind us again what side was the Government on? yes Remain so it is trying to denegrate and put down those who had the temerity to vote against the Governments wishes.
5,455 people and we don't even know for sure whether they actually voted ....
Let's be clear, we DO know how people voted, because people ask them. That's how polling works. One of these polls was 5,455 people, I think the Ashcroft poll was about 17,000 people, and the Vote Leave campaign polling data polled 1.1m people and found that more than 1 million people who voted Leave wanted to change their vote to Remain.
YouGov is a polling company, it's not actually the government. However yet again you are attacking the source of the data, rather than looking at the data.
Lets clear this up once and for all. Can you please provide the voting slips for all those people polled? Naturally each slip will need evidence it belonged to the individual.
If you can't provide that the polls you quote are meaningless.
If polls were meaningless, polling companies wouldn't exist. "Please stop hijacking the Thread. It is nothing to do with Brexit. Its about Scotland and its future. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? That's because the thread isn't worth commenting on, the OP has proven to be extremely bitter towards the SNP and hasn't been favourable in the past regarding Scotland so I will sit back and let others comment So being a financial basket case due to the policies of your Government is not worth commenting on and has no relevance to the case for Independence? Interesting. And do please post where I have made any disparaging remarks about Scotland itself or the Scots as a people. However if you support a bunch like the SNP then don't be surprised if people think you are a shilling short of a quid ... But then people say the same thing about this Englishman who votes Tory "Well if there was an election tomorrow the mass majority of people would be barmy then as snp would sweep scotland and tories would get near landslide in england | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? That's because the thread isn't worth commenting on, the OP has proven to be extremely bitter towards the SNP and hasn't been favourable in the past regarding Scotland so I will sit back and let others comment So being a financial basket case due to the policies of your Government is not worth commenting on and has no relevance to the case for Independence? Interesting. And do please post where I have made any disparaging remarks about Scotland itself or the Scots as a people. However if you support a bunch like the SNP then don't be surprised if people think you are a shilling short of a quid ... But then people say the same thing about this Englishman who votes Tory
Well if there was an election tomorrow the mass majority of people would be barmy then as snp would sweep scotland and tories would get near landslide in england"Make me wonder how Ukip would do though if there was an election tomorrow. | |||
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"Notice how no Scots have commented yet. Would it bother the rest of the UK if we did have another referendum? What would it change if they did? Unless the EU has changed its laws. Scotland joined the EU as part of the UK all treaties signed are with the UK with Scotland as part of it that is how we must leave the EU. Then Scotland can rejoin the EU if and when they become independent. Or just England and Wales could leave, leaving the rest of the UK in the EU. No they cant we all joined as the UK and must leave as the UK. Greenland and the Faroes did, so there is precedent for it. Would it bother you if part of the UK remained in the EU? If so, why?. Why stop at Scotland... Why not let Wessex stay and Northumberland go... If you can't let go of the past you'll never move on Well I have seen people suggesting a new country called ScotLond!
In your dreams
Well as it was generally the younger, richer, better educated people who voted to remain, it might not be better for the older, poorer, less educated people if we split into two separate countries.
Where was the demographic analysis box on the ballot paper? I missed it....
Well which group describes you best?
"Voter"
yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.
Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.
A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.
White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.
So here's the data from two different sources which support each other.
I don't really understand why some people seem to be ashamed of the other people who voted with them. If you think that there is something wrong with your side, maybe you should change sides. There were plenty of high profile swaps during the campaign.
You are misleading people again. Same shit different day. lets be clear: No one knows how people voted, for what reason, their educational background or any other damn thing. Why? Because there were only two boxes on that ballot paper: 'Remain' or 'Leave'. Nothing else.
So this wonderful piece of 'factual data' you cook up turns out to be a Poll. Nothing more or less. You know the sort of 'Poll' that had Brexit 10 points down on June 22nd? Had you taken the trouble to actually read the data rather than the result you wish to portray you will have found this:
YouGov Survey Results
Sample Size: 5455 UK Adults
Fieldwork: 23rd - 24th June 2016
Yes. 5,455 adults. Out of a vote of some 35 million.
And remind us again what side was the Government on? yes Remain so it is trying to denegrate and put down those who had the temerity to vote against the Governments wishes.
5,455 people and we don't even know for sure whether they actually voted ....
Let's be clear, we DO know how people voted, because people ask them. That's how polling works. One of these polls was 5,455 people, I think the Ashcroft poll was about 17,000 people, and the Vote Leave campaign polling data polled 1.1m people and found that more than 1 million people who voted Leave wanted to change their vote to Remain.
YouGov is a polling company, it's not actually the government. However yet again you are attacking the source of the data, rather than looking at the data.
Lets clear this up once and for all. Can you please provide the voting slips for all those people polled? Naturally each slip will need evidence it belonged to the individual.
If you can't provide that the polls you quote are meaningless.
If polls were meaningless, polling companies wouldn't exist.
Please stop hijacking the Thread. It is nothing to do with Brexit. Its about Scotland and its future."How is it hijacking the thread when I was responding to your post and you are the OP! | |||
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"Ive prob said this before but scotland could easily be a nation who could prosper given the chance and not have to give all its assests and recoursees to westminster and before you come back like you jave everytime with. 15 bill defecit we will deal witj that at least we dont have a 1.trillion pound debt hey thats uf you beleived the tories would have been paid off by now ,yip thats what they dont want you to know " I don't mean to be condescending but I take it you don't realise the difference between a deficit and a debt? Also, when you say Scotland could be a nation that prospers what do you mean exactly in financial terms? And what assests and 'recoursees' do you believe Scotland gives to Westminster? | |||
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"Ive prob said this before but scotland could easily be a nation who could prosper given the chance and not have to give all its assests and recoursees to westminster and before you come back like you jave everytime with. 15 bill defecit we will deal witj that at least we dont have a 1.trillion pound debt hey thats uf you beleived the tories would have been paid off by now ,yip thats what they dont want you to know " I hate to mention this but Scotland added some £66.4 Bn debt to the UK's debt you just mentioned between 2007/08 and 2013. http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2013/06/9241/5 Scotland has added a further £27 Bn since. So that is some £90 Bn for about 8% of the population. The Scottish budget deficit stands at 9.5 per cent of GDP, more than double that of the whole of the UK and the highest in the EU, including crisis-hit Greece and Spain. | |||
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"The Gers figures are misleading to say the least. And even if they are to be taken at face value, why are we the only nation in the world that relies on such a union to survive? I have complete confidence in Scotland surviving, nay thriving, as a normal natioIn state." What about the United Arab Emirates? | |||
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"The Gers figures are misleading to say the least. And even if they are to be taken at face value, why are we the only nation in the world that relies on such a union to survive? I have complete confidence in Scotland surviving, nay thriving, as a normal nation state." So enlighten us Sassenachs how you intend to a) repay all this debt you have run up with rUK, b) how you intend to balance your books when your deficit is some £2,850 for every man, woman and child and c) then create a surplus as without it the EU will never let you in? Surely Ms Sturgeon should be working on THOSE issues rather than stirring up controversy and anger with the other members of the UK? | |||
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"The Gers figures are misleading to say the least. And even if they are to be taken at face value, why are we the only nation in the world that relies on such a union to survive? I have complete confidence in Scotland surviving, nay thriving, as a normal nation state." In what way are they misleading, and if they were then why would the Scottish Govt (SNP) say the following in their white paper on independence 'GERS is the authoritative publication on Scotland’s public finances' (page 67 if you want to check)? It's only since the figures started getting worse that there's been a campaign to discredit them based solely on the fact the SNP don't have an answer to why they are so bad or how to address the issues. Here's a link to a pro-indy website article on Gers and how indy supporters and the SNP have to start addressing the facts: https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9154/robin-mcalpine-independence-be-taken-seriously-we-must-behave-seriously I disgaree with some of his later figures but the premise of the article is correct. As for the question why are we the only nation in the world that relies on a union to survive (we're not) then the answer is very simple. We COULD survive as an independent nation but we would be substantially worse off. It would need spending cuts many times more than we have seen under recent austerity along with tax rises on a scale never seen before. | |||
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"I cannot believe people of Scotland are buying into this nonsense again. Alex salmond et al were prepared to go alone against all fiscal policies and try and get indipendance without a currency and a chance they might get to stay in Europe. Now after getting humped, his young pretender is trying the same thing on the "we voted to stay in Europe " ticket. £15 billion in debt. Europe in crisis and overun with Islamic terrorism.... she wants another bash! What happened to accepting and embracing democracy? Both indefref and stay in were humped oot the park. However. .. some peeps cannot accept responsibility or democracy, they want another run... hoy, ref.... keep playing till we score! Total wronguns. SNP halfwits and idiots. ... We are better in UK and out of Europe.... Those sniffing glue and watching braveheart need not apply or attend... Fuds! " strange how the Scotland independence vote is a one only vote, a once in a lifetime yet when brexit won the exit from EU there are huge cry's for a revote . | |||
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" strange how the Scotland independence vote is a one only vote, a once in a lifetime yet when brexit won the exit from EU there are huge cry's for a revote ." It's not really strange considering it's the party who said it was a 'once in a generation' vote who are calling for one 2 years later. As for brexit, the people calling for a revote are the losers, the same as the indy vote, and it's clear they won't get one. It appears that losers have issues with referendums. | |||
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"By the way... we voted no in the indyref referendum. Big majority to change and swing with sniffing glue and braveheart patter #wontwork Nationism is dead. Plus... it's a non devolved issue and not in manifesto. #Nationistmwronguns " I keep switching over when she comes on,I don't like listening to her,I think she has a recorder set on repeat and likes to drone on | |||
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"Eventually the Scots will realise the damage the SNP have done to their country when they have to fork out an extra £3k for every man, woman and child in Scotland as the price of the SNP Socialist Nirvana. And there will be no more blaming the English (aka 'Westminster') either. Maybe then they will kick them out and we will hear no more from this God awful woman. Sadly it will be a painful learning curve for the Bravehearts ..." Why not invade Norway and take over their country on the pretext that they would not have to pay as much tax if they were subjugated to Westminster? Any Sovereign state has to cut their own cloth and organise their own tax and spend policies. Saying that Scotland should not be an independent sovereign state because "they can't afford it," is as patronising as it is ridiculous. | |||
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"Eventually the Scots will realise the damage the SNP have done to their country when they have to fork out an extra £3k for every man, woman and child in Scotland as the price of the SNP Socialist Nirvana. And there will be no more blaming the English (aka 'Westminster') either. Maybe then they will kick them out and we will hear no more from this God awful woman. Sadly it will be a painful learning curve for the Bravehearts ..." I think you need to reign in the sweeping generalisations. The majority of Scots don't support the SNP or independence. We're just in the unfortunate situation where almost everyone who wants independence votes SNP whereas all other votes are split between the other parties. Unfortunately due to the first past the post electoral system this results in skewed results where almost every single MP is a member of the SNP. Almost everything has gone backwards in their time in government, education, the NHS, the police and fire service, etc. | |||
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"Eventually the Scots will realise the damage the SNP have done to their country when they have to fork out an extra £3k for every man, woman and child in Scotland as the price of the SNP Socialist Nirvana. And there will be no more blaming the English (aka 'Westminster') either. Maybe then they will kick them out and we will hear no more from this God awful woman. Sadly it will be a painful learning curve for the Bravehearts ... I think you need to reign in the sweeping generalisations. The majority of Scots don't support the SNP or independence. We're just in the unfortunate situation where almost everyone who wants independence votes SNP whereas all other votes are split between the other parties. Unfortunately due to the first past the post electoral system this results in skewed results where almost every single MP is a member of the SNP. Almost everything has gone backwards in their time in government, education, the NHS, the police and fire service, etc." I do take your point about generalisations but when you discuss a total country then that happens. My intention was to highlight the financial failures the SNP have been inflicting on Scotland which until now have been absorbed invisibly by rUK. Sadly the costs of those failures will now fall on Scottish taxpayers and as I said I feel it is such a sad situation. As for 'First Past the Post' without getting into the politics you only have to look at the last Election and see that the SNP got 56 MPs for 4.7% and 1.5 million votes whereas UKIP got 1 MP for 12.6% and 3.9 million votes. But that is how we do Democracy and long may it stay so. | |||
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"Eventually the Scots will realise the damage the SNP have done to their country when they have to fork out an extra £3k for every man, woman and child in Scotland as the price of the SNP Socialist Nirvana. And there will be no more blaming the English (aka 'Westminster') either. Maybe then they will kick them out and we will hear no more from this God awful woman. Sadly it will be a painful learning curve for the Bravehearts ... Why not invade Norway and take over their country on the pretext that they would not have to pay as much tax if they were subjugated to Westminster? Any Sovereign state has to cut their own cloth and organise their own tax and spend policies. Saying that Scotland should not be an independent sovereign state because "they can't afford it," is as patronising as it is ridiculous." I think your antipathy got the better of you there. Where on earth did the Norway thing come from? And where have I ever said that Scotland should not be Independent? All I have pointed out is that should they go down that route with the SNP in Office then the financial outlook for individual Scots is pretty grim. Care to actually criticise my points you quoted rather than create others? | |||
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" Any Sovereign state has to cut their own cloth and organise their own tax and spend policies. Saying that Scotland should not be an independent sovereign state because "they can't afford it," is as patronising as it is ridiculous." I agree, although I love the UK and wholeheartedly believe that we would be better off as a United Kingdom, working together, if they did vote for independence they would simply have to balance the budget like every other country. I think one of the fallacies that the SNP peddle though is that independence will mean a whole country of people who are happy and contented with their politicians. I know its a generalisation, but I would say that in most countries around the world, at any one time, half of the country is pissed off with their government. | |||
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"I've read all of the above and like all politics or political debate each one can sound like it has the truth... I think that key word is sadly lacking in any information we get from ANY of our politicians - TRUTH. Polls and numbers can be manipulated to say anything. Like I said on the Scottish post which led me to this one... I am disgusted and disillusioned by politics and politicians in general. If they spent more time sitting down together to work out what was best, do-able and work on solutions instead of bickering, oneupmanship, greed and personal pride then the world would be in a far better state... THE WORLD not just Scotland, England or any other country. I am Scottish first and foremost and who does not have a sense of identity based on where they were born,their root and tribe if you will. I would happily stay in any union which worked for ALL its people not to line the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor. I would happily pay more tax IF I saw that tax utilised for the betterment such things as education, jobs, roads, wages and the NHS. For the record I have no animostiy or prejudice against any race, colour or creed. I don't know enough about politics to argue what would happen if Scotland went alone but I do have one question for all of you who think they do know??? If Scotland is really such a draw on the UK economy (Westminster??) WHY DOES IT WANT TO KEEP US??????????????? Would it not have made more sense to cut the "dead weight" some seem to think Scotland is clear? Lastly my greatest disappointment is that my children seem to have no better a world than the one I remember in the seventies during the "winter of discontent". Thanks to the OP for his post and to all of you for commenting... its interesting to see all the differing points of view. Fire "Can an Englishman offer a very simple reason why the UK is better with the Scots involved than not? We are all family. We have a shared history going back centuries. We argue like all families do but when a neighbour has a pop at us we stand shoulder to shoulder. We share a language (although I could never master the Gallic) and we share the same core values which are expressed in our similar but separate legal systems. We have distinct cultural differences, none better than the other and we are better for sharing those differences. And like all families when one member is having a hard time the others help. It is after all why we created the Union in the first place when we helped Scotland and they gave us a Monarch. What has changed is that a political nationalism has been fed by the stupidity of a botched devolved system that was created by Labour to ensure they could bank on 59 MPs. This gave the Nationalists a way to take credit for when things went right and say "we Scots don't need the Union" but more importantly blame 'Westminster' (for which read 'those English') when things went badly. The UK had a very effective level of 'devolved power' through County and Unitary Councils. All equally funded and all with equal power regardless of location. There was no need for Scottish devolution at all other than a typical Labour stitch up that backfired as they always did. And to add insult to injury Labour gave the Welsh LESS powers and the English NO powers at all! Ulster will of course always be an exceptional situation. In summary what we have is a vicious and manipulative SNP driving a quasi racist agenda against us English (which they call 'Westminster') while ripping us off for £15 Bn last year. No matter how strong a family is when a sister rips off a brother year after year and throws insults and abuse while she does it the rest of the family says 'time to leave' for the benefit of the rest of the family. | |||
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"I've read all of the above and like all politics or political debate each one can sound like it has the truth... I think that key word is sadly lacking in any information we get from ANY of our politicians - TRUTH. Polls and numbers can be manipulated to say anything. Like I said on the Scottish post which led me to this one... I am disgusted and disillusioned by politics and politicians in general. If they spent more time sitting down together to work out what was best, do-able and work on solutions instead of bickering, oneupmanship, greed and personal pride then the world would be in a far better state... THE WORLD not just Scotland, England or any other country. I am Scottish first and foremost and who does not have a sense of identity based on where they were born,their root and tribe if you will. I would happily stay in any union which worked for ALL its people not to line the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor. I would happily pay more tax IF I saw that tax utilised for the betterment such things as education, jobs, roads, wages and the NHS. For the record I have no animostiy or prejudice against any race, colour or creed. I don't know enough about politics to argue what would happen if Scotland went alone but I do have one question for all of you who think they do know??? If Scotland is really such a draw on the UK economy (Westminster??) WHY DOES IT WANT TO KEEP US??????????????? Would it not have made more sense to cut the "dead weight" some seem to think Scotland is clear? Lastly my greatest disappointment is that my children seem to have no better a world than the one I remember in the seventies during the "winter of discontent". Thanks to the OP for his post and to all of you for commenting... its interesting to see all the differing points of view. Fire
Can an Englishman offer a very simple reason why the UK is better with the Scots involved than not? We are all family. We have a shared history going back centuries. We argue like all families do but when a neighbour has a pop at us we stand shoulder to shoulder. We share a language (although I could never master the Gallic) and we share the same core values which are expressed in our similar but separate legal systems. We have distinct cultural differences, none better than the other and we are better for sharing those differences. And like all families when one member is having a hard time the others help. It is after all why we created the Union in the first place when we helped Scotland and they gave us a Monarch.
What has changed is that a political nationalism has been fed by the stupidity of a botched devolved system that was created by Labour to ensure they could bank on 59 MPs. This gave the Nationalists a way to take credit for when things went right and say "we Scots don't need the Union" but more importantly blame 'Westminster' (for which read 'those English') when things went badly. The UK had a very effective level of 'devolved power' through County and Unitary Councils. All equally funded and all with equal power regardless of location. There was no need for Scottish devolution at all other than a typical Labour stitch up that backfired as they always did. And to add insult to injury Labour gave the Welsh LESS powers and the English NO powers at all! Ulster will of course always be an exceptional situation.
In summary what we have is a vicious and manipulative SNP driving a quasi racist agenda against us English (which they call 'Westminster') while ripping us off for £15 Bn last year. No matter how strong a family is when a sister rips off a brother year after year and throws insults and abuse while she does it the rest of the family says 'time to leave' for the benefit of the rest of the family."And your reply really only fuels the Scottish feeling that "Westminster" see's Scotland as a poor relative and a drain on it's economy - my question still stands -why would it make such a poor financial decision to keep a country that is so much of a draw on its resources. Westminster IS different from England as it represents those who hold money and power not the English people. Scotland has these power hungry people too. All countries and all political parties have these people and you like every one else here have chosen one over the others in the mistaken belief that your chosen party can resolve social issues etc. Every political party in this country that has been in power sells itself as the one that can sort our economy etc and every one of them blames the other for the problems they need to sort and the mess they need to deal with. Perhaps if they worked together they might actually achieve it and granted our only option is to choose one of them but I do hope some of them will right those wrongs one day. My point on that is that at this time, there is more of them corrupt and serve themselves and the rich and powerful first and not enough working to serve the greater good for humanity not only here but worldwide. | |||
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" I don't know enough about politics to argue what would happen if Scotland went alone but I do have one question for all of you who think they do know??? If Scotland is really such a draw on the UK economy (Westminster??) WHY DOES IT WANT TO KEEP US??????????????? " I've seen many who are pro-indy ask this very question. It's a bit of a red herring though because their reason for asking it is because they have a (very) mistaken belief that the financial figures are all wrong and Scotland is somehow sending bucketloads of money to Westminster and getting less back. The real answer imo is because there is much more to the UK, or any nation, than just the finances. Why doesn't the UK get rid of Wales, Northern Ireland or various regions that also spend more than they raise? No PM would wish to end what has been, and continues to be, such a succesful polticial union. It would also be madness to go against the wishes of the majority of Scots who wish to remain within the Union. We have a rich shared history and a huge amount of trade takes place within our shared borders. We also share and pool our resources as necessary, as any succesfull nations do. | |||
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" I don't know enough about politics to argue what would happen if Scotland went alone but I do have one question for all of you who think they do know??? If Scotland is really such a draw on the UK economy (Westminster??) WHY DOES IT WANT TO KEEP US??????????????? I've seen many who are pro-indy ask this very question. It's a bit of a red herring though because their reason for asking it is because they have a (very) mistaken belief that the financial figures are all wrong and Scotland is somehow sending bucketloads of money to Westminster and getting less back. The real answer imo is because there is much more to the UK, or any nation, than just the finances. Why doesn't the UK get rid of Wales, Northern Ireland or various regions that also spend more than they raise? No PM would wish to end what has been, and continues to be, such a succesful polticial union. It would also be madness to go against the wishes of the majority of Scots who wish to remain within the Union. We have a rich shared history and a huge amount of trade takes place within our shared borders. We also share and pool our resources as necessary, as any succesfull nations do. " This. | |||
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" I don't know enough about politics to argue what would happen if Scotland went alone but I do have one question for all of you who think they do know??? If Scotland is really such a draw on the UK economy (Westminster??) WHY DOES IT WANT TO KEEP US??????????????? I've seen many who are pro-indy ask this very question. It's a bit of a red herring though because their reason for asking it is because they have a (very) mistaken belief that the financial figures are all wrong and Scotland is somehow sending bucketloads of money to Westminster and getting less back. The real answer imo is because there is much more to the UK, or any nation, than just the finances. Why doesn't the UK get rid of Wales, Northern Ireland or various regions that also spend more than they raise? No PM would wish to end what has been, and continues to be, such a succesful polticial union. It would also be madness to go against the wishes of the majority of Scots who wish to remain within the Union. We have a rich shared history and a huge amount of trade takes place within our shared borders. We also share and pool our resources as necessary, as any succesfull nations do. This. "So you are saying England supports Scotland, Wales and NI financially??? | |||
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" I don't know enough about politics to argue what would happen if Scotland went alone but I do have one question for all of you who think they do know??? If Scotland is really such a draw on the UK economy (Westminster??) WHY DOES IT WANT TO KEEP US??????????????? I've seen many who are pro-indy ask this very question. It's a bit of a red herring though because their reason for asking it is because they have a (very) mistaken belief that the financial figures are all wrong and Scotland is somehow sending bucketloads of money to Westminster and getting less back. The real answer imo is because there is much more to the UK, or any nation, than just the finances. Why doesn't the UK get rid of Wales, Northern Ireland or various regions that also spend more than they raise? No PM would wish to end what has been, and continues to be, such a succesful polticial union. It would also be madness to go against the wishes of the majority of Scots who wish to remain within the Union. We have a rich shared history and a huge amount of trade takes place within our shared borders. We also share and pool our resources as necessary, as any succesfull nations do. This.
So you are saying England supports Scotland, Wales and NI financially??? "I don't know if he is but I would say that given the deficits run up by Wales and Scotland and the much higher levels of public expenditure they get more than England. A report from Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre finds that Wales had a net fiscal balance deficit of £14.7bn, equivalent to around 24% of estimated GDP. This figure compares with a deficit of 4.9% of GDP for the UK as a whole and £14.9bn (9.7% of GDP) for Scotland. So last year Wales and Scotland cost England some £30 Bn... I would rather not include N. Ireland as that is a very exceptional situation. | |||
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"such a huge response, opinion and comment from ones who have no say and no vote on this matter interesting; I only see 4 people in this thread who even have a vote" It probably reflects the simple demographic that only 8.4 % of the UK population are Scottish although they do seem to be making 90% of the noise... And with respect while Scotland is a part OF the UK, and financially relies heavily ON the rest of the UK, then everyone IN the UK has a right to voice an opinion. What you just voiced was the SNP party line that it is an entirely Scottish matter and no one else matters. We do matter and greatly. Its OUR country. One might argue that as it is the future of the UK being decided everyone IN the UK should have a vote. Although given Salmond's and Sturgeon's abuse of the English I suspect that may guarantee Scotland's independence. | |||
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"It's more interesting that the OP believes what he want to believe about figures and statistics that are easily manipulated to suit whomever wants to say what they want them to say. He doesn't believe the poll figures someone else posts but does believe the ones he posts... interesting... I find it very difficult to believe England would keep THREE counties financially just because of sentimental shared history (as stated by the OP) and I really don't see why he would leave NI out of that just because he views them as a special case of some kind. In regard to Scotlands "debt" and leaving aside her resources being used by the UK, I would rather pay more taxes and the £3000 or so I apparently get more than anyone else, so that we can have sink or swim by our own means and not living off another country... that's if you even believe that. I've heard many arguments from both sides on the financial viability of that. Going back to my original point and the bigger picture... Our WORLD is run by mainly self serving and selfish greedy people who thrive on the misfortune, pain and poverty of others. Only when this is resolved will our world see improvement." Very well said lady | |||
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"It's more interesting that the OP believes what he want to believe about figures and statistics that are easily manipulated to suit whomever wants to say what they want them to say. He doesn't believe the poll figures someone else posts but does believe the ones he posts... interesting... I find it very difficult to believe England would keep THREE counties financially just because of sentimental shared history (as stated by the OP) and I really don't see why he would leave NI out of that just because he views them as a special case of some kind. In regard to Scotlands "debt" and leaving aside her resources being used by the UK, I would rather pay more taxes and the £3000 or so I apparently get more than anyone else, so that we can have sink or swim by our own means and not living off another country... that's if you even believe that. I've heard many arguments from both sides on the financial viability of that. Going back to my original point and the bigger picture... Our WORLD is run by mainly self serving and selfish greedy people who thrive on the misfortune, pain and poverty of others. Only when this is resolved will our world see improvement. Very well said lady "Thanking you most kindly - to quote the fabulous Mr John Lennon "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one"  | |||
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"Eventually the Scots will realise the damage the SNP have done to their country when they have to fork out an extra £3k for every man, woman and child in Scotland as the price of the SNP Socialist Nirvana. And there will be no more blaming the English (aka 'Westminster') either. Maybe then they will kick them out and we will hear no more from this God awful woman. Sadly it will be a painful learning curve for the Bravehearts ... I think you need to reign in the sweeping generalisations. The majority of Scots don't support the SNP or independence. We're just in the unfortunate situation where almost everyone who wants independence votes SNP whereas all other votes are split between the other parties. Unfortunately due to the first past the post electoral system this results in skewed results where almost every single MP is a member of the SNP. Almost everything has gone backwards in their time in government, education, the NHS, the police and fire service, etc." I could not agree more. The snp keep telling us Scotland voted to stay in Europe and Westminster is dragging us out of the EU, Less than half the voters of Scotland voted to stay in the EU. 39 % of vote leave in Scotland were snp members. 33% of voters in Scotland love the EU so much they never even voted. The snp does not define Scotland or all the voter, indeed if you don't vote for them you are seen as some kind of enemy. | |||
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"Eventually the Scots will realise the damage the SNP have done to their country when they have to fork out an extra £3k for every man, woman and child in Scotland as the price of the SNP Socialist Nirvana. And there will be no more blaming the English (aka 'Westminster') either. Maybe then they will kick them out and we will hear no more from this God awful woman. Sadly it will be a painful learning curve for the Bravehearts ... I think you need to reign in the sweeping generalisations. The majority of Scots don't support the SNP or independence. We're just in the unfortunate situation where almost everyone who wants independence votes SNP whereas all other votes are split between the other parties. Unfortunately due to the first past the post electoral system this results in skewed results where almost every single MP is a member of the SNP. Almost everything has gone backwards in their time in government, education, the NHS, the police and fire service, etc. I could not agree more. The snp keep telling us Scotland voted to stay in Europe and Westminster is dragging us out of the EU, Less than half the voters of Scotland voted to stay in the EU. 39 % of vote leave in Scotland were snp members. 33% of voters in Scotland love the EU so much they never even voted. The snp does not define Scotland or all the voter, indeed if you don't vote for them you are seen as some kind of enemy." I agree with your statement in regard to the SNP not defining Scotland or the voter. To me modern politics seeks to divide rather than unite people and AGAIN that is because of the powerhunger and greedy nature of human beings who are voted in place to resolve such issues but due to that self interest they do not. My quote on John Leonnon's song lyric was in regard to the sentiment within the lyric itself not that Mr Lennon himself held the answer to the world's problems. This too is a problem for the human race... jumping to conclusions
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"He also said all you need is love, give up all your wealth, houses and foreign holidays and live in a bed for 3 weeks....I don't see anybody doing it anytime soon!. . . To transgress back to the original point.... Could Scotland be an independent country... Yes of course it could, the question of whether you'd be better off financially is really easy to answer. No you wouldn't!. However not everything in life is about money to me and maybe there's a lot of Scots willing to earn and have less financially to be run independently.... What they shouldn't do is bullshit the rest of them with false promises" If we ever get a politician who doesn't bullshit or make false promises I would vote for him/her... I don't see that ever happening alas | |||
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"such a huge response, opinion and comment from ones who have no say and no vote on this matter interesting; I only see 4 people in this thread who even have a vote It probably reflects the simple demographic that only 8.4 % of the UK population are Scottish although they do seem to be making 90% of the noise... And with respect while Scotland is a part OF the UK, and financially relies heavily ON the rest of the UK, then everyone IN the UK has a right to voice an opinion. What you just voiced was the SNP party line that it is an entirely Scottish matter and no one else matters. We do matter and greatly. Its OUR country. One might argue that as it is the future of the UK being decided everyone IN the UK should have a vote. Although given Salmond's and Sturgeon's abuse of the English I suspect that may guarantee Scotland's independence. " With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, and your past history of thread making continues to tell us how much the English pay to keep Scotland afloat and how much everyone suffers for this. Do you honestly think England would thrive as it leaves the EU behind without the backing of Scotland? Remember I have read many of your previous threads Wishing you well, as you do put up good arguments, just wish I had as much time as you do, so I could read more of your comments. | |||
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"such a huge response, opinion and comment from ones who have no say and no vote on this matter interesting; I only see 4 people in this thread who even have a vote It probably reflects the simple demographic that only 8.4 % of the UK population are Scottish although they do seem to be making 90% of the noise... And with respect while Scotland is a part OF the UK, and financially relies heavily ON the rest of the UK, then everyone IN the UK has a right to voice an opinion. What you just voiced was the SNP party line that it is an entirely Scottish matter and no one else matters. We do matter and greatly. Its OUR country. One might argue that as it is the future of the UK being decided everyone IN the UK should have a vote. Although given Salmond's and Sturgeon's abuse of the English I suspect that may guarantee Scotland's independence. With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, and your past history of thread making continues to tell us how much the English pay to keep Scotland afloat and how much everyone suffers for this. Do you honestly think England would thrive as it leaves the EU behind without the backing of Scotland? Remember I have read many of your previous threads Wishing you well, as you do put up good arguments, just wish I had as much time as you do, so I could read more of your comments." | |||
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"He also said all you need is love, give up all your wealth, houses and foreign holidays and live in a bed for 3 weeks....I don't see anybody doing it anytime soon!. . . To transgress back to the original point.... Could Scotland be an independent country... Yes of course it could, the question of whether you'd be better off financially is really easy to answer. No you wouldn't!. However not everything in life is about money to me and maybe there's a lot of Scots willing to earn and have less financially to be run independently.... What they shouldn't do is bullshit the rest of them with false promises If we ever get a politician who doesn't bullshit or make false promises I would vote for him/her... I don't see that ever happening alas "You wont get much closer than John Swinney, he is a gentleman, a good MSP who looks after the people of Perthshire and genuinely assists and raises issues on peoples behalf. I have attended many meetings with him and he is a quiet man who gets things done. . | |||
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"He also said all you need is love, give up all your wealth, houses and foreign holidays and live in a bed for 3 weeks....I don't see anybody doing it anytime soon!. . . To transgress back to the original point.... Could Scotland be an independent country... Yes of course it could, the question of whether you'd be better off financially is really easy to answer. No you wouldn't!. However not everything in life is about money to me and maybe there's a lot of Scots willing to earn and have less financially to be run independently.... What they shouldn't do is bullshit the rest of them with false promises If we ever get a politician who doesn't bullshit or make false promises I would vote for him/her... I don't see that ever happening alas
You wont get much closer than John Swinney, he is a gentleman, a good MSP who looks after the people of Perthshire and genuinely assists and raises issues on peoples behalf.
I have attended many meetings with him and he is a quiet man who gets things done.
."By the law of averages there has to be one | |||
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"He also said all you need is love, give up all your wealth, houses and foreign holidays and live in a bed for 3 weeks....I don't see anybody doing it anytime soon!. . . To transgress back to the original point.... Could Scotland be an independent country... Yes of course it could, the question of whether you'd be better off financially is really easy to answer. No you wouldn't!. However not everything in life is about money to me and maybe there's a lot of Scots willing to earn and have less financially to be run independently.... What they shouldn't do is bullshit the rest of them with false promises If we ever get a politician who doesn't bullshit or make false promises I would vote for him/her... I don't see that ever happening alas
You wont get much closer than John Swinney, he is a gentleman, a good MSP who looks after the people of Perthshire and genuinely assists and raises issues on peoples behalf.
I have attended many meetings with him and he is a quiet man who gets things done.
.
By the law of averages there has to be one "well thank you ma'm , I am sure there are others too, but most are the silent type, keep there mouth shut and get on with the job in hand I have a great dislike to Parliament questions simply due to the way most MP's and some MSP's act, and this is in front of world camera audience | |||
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"It's more interesting that the OP believes what he want to believe about figures and statistics that are easily manipulated to suit whomever wants to say what they want them to say. He doesn't believe the poll figures someone else posts but does believe the ones he posts... interesting..." I wasn't quoting easily manipulated numbers or poll figures come to that. My last post in answer to your quite proper direct question was to quote Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre data which also reflects the ONS figures all easily accessible by your good self! My ONE challenge to a poll was the inference that some 5,400 people represented the views of 17.4 million people. " I find it very difficult to believe England would keep THREE counties financially just because of sentimental shared history (as stated by the OP) and I really don't see why he would leave NI out of that just because he views them as a special case of some kind." Well maybe you should be happy we in England DO share that view of history, family and a mutual caring for every member of the Union regardless of cost. If the English had the sectarian and quasi-racist views expressed so frequently by the SNP there would be no UK. Just a very prosperous England surrounded by bankrupt and austerity ridden Wales and Scotland. Those are the hard economic facts of the matter. To put the ONS / Cardiff numbers into context the 13.2% of the UK population of Wales and Scotland ran up a combined deficit of some £30 Bn in 2015 which was some 43% of the total UK Government deficit of £70 Bn. And if you cannot see why Northern Ireland's historical violence and recent peaceful co-existence doesn't make it a special case then I am unable to change your mind. " In regard to Scotlands "debt" and leaving aside her resources being used by the UK," What resources are those then? The deficit is a figure calculated by the Scottish Government itself. Not known for giving anything away! " I would rather pay more taxes and the £3000 or so I apparently get more than anyone else, so that we can have sink or swim by our own means and not living off another country... that's if you even believe that. I've heard many arguments from both sides on the financial viability of that." I never said £3,000 I said £1,600 and they are ONS figures. Well this year you will be doing as you wish. The SNP Government will have to balance the books using all the new powers it has been given. And THAT is some £2,850 for each man woman and child (divide £15 Bn by the Scottish population). So that is about £4,450 EACH. Enjoy achieving your wish. | |||
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"He also said all you need is love, give up all your wealth, houses and foreign holidays and live in a bed for 3 weeks....I don't see anybody doing it anytime soon!. . . To transgress back to the original point.... Could Scotland be an independent country... Yes of course it could, the question of whether you'd be better off financially is really easy to answer. No you wouldn't!. However not everything in life is about money to me and maybe there's a lot of Scots willing to earn and have less financially to be run independently.... What they shouldn't do is bullshit the rest of them with false promises If we ever get a politician who doesn't bullshit or make false promises I would vote for him/her... I don't see that ever happening alas
You wont get much closer than John Swinney, he is a gentleman, a good MSP who looks after the people of Perthshire and genuinely assists and raises issues on peoples behalf.
I have attended many meetings with him and he is a quiet man who gets things done.
.
By the law of averages there has to be one
well thank you ma'm , I am sure there are others too, but most are the silent type, keep there mouth shut and get on with the job in hand
I have a great dislike to Parliament questions simply due to the way most MP's and some MSP's act, and this is in front of world camera audience "Couldn't agree more and alas the world's politicians and not much better. Such a disappointment in a new millenium but I hope my children's generation do so much better than ours for every one. No country exists in isolation, at the end of the day we are all neighbours and share our beautiful blue planets resources. There is no reason for anyone to be hungry, thirsty or lack somewhere to live. | |||
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"It's more interesting that the OP believes what he want to believe about figures and statistics that are easily manipulated to suit whomever wants to say what they want them to say. He doesn't believe the poll figures someone else posts but does believe the ones he posts... interesting... I wasn't quoting easily manipulated numbers or poll figures come to that. My last post in answer to your quite proper direct question was to quote Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre data which also reflects the ONS figures all easily accessible by your good self! My ONE challenge to a poll was the inference that some 5,400 people represented the views of 17.4 million people. I find it very difficult to believe England would keep THREE counties financially just because of sentimental shared history (as stated by the OP) and I really don't see why he would leave NI out of that just because he views them as a special case of some kind. Well maybe you should be happy we in England DO share that view of history, family and a mutual caring for every member of the Union regardless of cost. If the English had the sectarian and quasi-racist views expressed so frequently by the SNP there would be no UK. Just a very prosperous England surrounded by bankrupt and austerity ridden Wales and Scotland. Those are the hard economic facts of the matter. To put the ONS / Cardiff numbers into context the 13.2% of the UK population of Wales and Scotland ran up a combined deficit of some £30 Bn in 2015 which was some 43% of the total UK Government deficit of £70 Bn. And if you cannot see why Northern Ireland's historical violence and recent peaceful co-existence doesn't make it a special case then I am unable to change your mind. In regard to Scotlands "debt" and leaving aside her resources being used by the UK, What resources are those then? The deficit is a figure calculated by the Scottish Government itself. Not known for giving anything away! I would rather pay more taxes and the £3000 or so I apparently get more than anyone else, so that we can have sink or swim by our own means and not living off another country... that's if you even believe that. I've heard many arguments from both sides on the financial viability of that. I never said £3,000 I said £1,600 and they are ONS figures. Well this year you will be doing as you wish. The SNP Government will have to balance the books using all the new powers it has been given. And THAT is some £2,850 for each man woman and child (divide £15 Bn by the Scottish population). So that is about £4,450 EACH. Enjoy achieving your wish. " I did not say that was my wish and apologies for misquoting you. I said in my opinion this debate along with most other political debate did not have a true cause at its heart. I said all political debate has greed, money and power at its root corrupting the drive to improve the lot of anyone regardless of race, colour or creed. It is my hope that one day that will be achieved and where would we be without hope. | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread," Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south... | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south..." Do you realllly need to listen to her??? I'd appreciate politicians being silent too unless they can say something honest... that would mean TOTAL silence I imagine... | |||
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btw can you tell me where you buy those rose tinted glasses, I'd love a pair | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south..." The point is the snp have been voted in 3 yes 3 times so it seems the majority of scots beleive they are doing a good job and are doing what is best for scotland unlike labour or tories who have to do what they are told by their rulers in london ,and i do beleive you or anyone else havent answered the question of why we were begged to stay in the union if we are such a burden ? | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south... The point is the snp have been voted in 3 yes 3 times so it seems the majority of scots beleive they are doing a good job and are doing what is best for scotland unlike labour or tories who have to do what they are told by their rulers in london ,and i do beleive you or anyone else havent answered the question of why we were begged to stay in the union if we are such a burden ?" Exactly - the only reason I can find on the thread is because England is so nice to us all and continues to support us in our ineptitude (Wales and NI too although remember the OP has specified NI IS different for them because of their violent history )
I find it hard to believe that any business like and financially driven nation would keep anything that drags it down financially or otherwise.
TO BE CLEAR - I know many BRITISH people (that's residents of all the four countries) are happy in the union and believe that we are better as a nation. My comments are not fueled by any dislike of any nation because as I don't judge people by that. Incidentally I am not sure if people are aware that the SNP is the Scottish National Party i.e. A party that has the good of Scotland at heart and not the Scottish Nationalist Party which would have an entirely different connotation. | |||
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"On a small point I am just about to start paying more tax for the dubious pleasure of having a snp government. The rise in the personal allowance for higher rate taxpayers is not being brought in Scotland by the nats. Therfore I will be paying more tax than someone in the same company in England. Many people in Scotland say they don't vote Tory but we get them as our government but I have to pay extra for a fecking snp one." You cant win no matter who you vote for. | |||
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"On a small point I am just about to start paying more tax for the dubious pleasure of having a snp government. The rise in the personal allowance for higher rate taxpayers is not being brought in Scotland by the nats. Therfore I will be paying more tax than someone in the same company in England. Many people in Scotland say they don't vote Tory but we get them as our government but I have to pay extra for a fecking snp one." Lol really??? Ohhh the irony eh | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south... The point is the snp have been voted in 3 yes 3 times so it seems the majority of scots beleive they are doing a good job and are doing what is best for scotland unlike labour or tories who have to do what they are told by their rulers in london ,and i do beleive you or anyone else havent answered the question of why we were begged to stay in the union if we are such a burden ?" . Is this a serious question?. How many countries give up land regardless of costs?.... Do you see Spain fucking off massive amounts of land coz it's not really cost effective, Canada... Russia giving up vast swathes of southern Russia?. The Scots would have to cost alot and I mean a real lot before Westminster would consider getting rid of it.... Coasts, ports, nuclear bases, army range testing, water, oil, "were" paying for it because it suits us, no more no less | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south... The point is the snp have been voted in 3 yes 3 times so it seems the majority of scots beleive they are doing a good job and are doing what is best for scotland unlike labour or tories who have to do what they are told by their rulers in london ,and i do beleive you or anyone else havent answered the question of why we were begged to stay in the union if we are such a burden ?" I have given two very detailed answers to that question. Page up and have a read. Criticise my words by all means but please don't say I haven't answered it. | |||
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"Interesting you seem to think that Ireland has a violent history but seem to believe Scotland, England or Wales does not..." There was no equivalent to the IRA in Scotland, Wales or England was there? And how many bombs did Nationalists from those three nations plant? " and that Scotland lacks resources(and therefore presumably, NI and Wales do too)..." With respect I didn't say they had no resources did I? I corrected your statement that England was using Scottish resources without paying or accounting for them. "Also by that implication you think NI should be treated differently... I do believe that was the whole point of the IRA blowing things and people up... they thought it would make them a special case... "Answered above. But the IRA didn't want to be a special case they wanted to restore Ulster to Eire. It failed. And it failed because the whole of the UK stood by the people of Ulster who wished to remain British. | |||
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" So you are saying England supports Scotland, Wales and NI financially??? " Yes, they support the levels of public spending in Scotland, Wales and NI. To be even more precise you can add in the fact that London and the South-East also support the levels of public expenditure that are seen in other areas of England. As an example, public spending per head in the North East of England is far more than the South East, but it is the South East who are effectively subsiding this. In terms of uk regions public spending is highest in the following: 1) Northern Ireland 2) Scotland 3) Wales 4) London 5) North East 6) North West In the case of Scotland specifically, the main reason for higher spending is just a sympton of having a (relatively) sparse population over a (relatively) large land mass. | |||
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" In regard to Scotlands "debt" and leaving aside her resources being used by the UK, I would rather pay more taxes and the £3000 or so I apparently get more than anyone else, so that we can have sink or swim by our own means and not living off another country... " It's very easy to say such a thing but the reality is very very few people (if any) would vote to have such a substantial increase in taxes. Remember the SNP used to have a campaign for people to pay a mere 1 pence extra in the pound on their taxes and then quickly dropped it when they found out it wasn't popular. There's also a reason that even now they are in government they refuse to raise any taxes, it's because they know it's very unpopular. Most people when it comes down to it are concerned with their day to day lives rather than fairly meaningless concepts about wealth distribution so if you told them they'd be substantially worse off and the public services they rely on (NHS etc) would also be worse so they could tell themselves they weren't being partially subsidised by another area of the country then I think they'd prefer things to continue as they are. The same thing happens in all nations around the world | |||
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" Incidentally I am not sure if people are aware that the SNP is the Scottish National Party i.e. A party that has the good of Scotland at heart and not the Scottish Nationalist Party which would have an entirely different connotation. " Apology for the multiple replies but I'm responding to seperate posts. The SNP are a nationalist party. Their name may be the Scottish National Party but that's more to do with the original names of the parties who merged to form them in 1943. Their ideology is Scottish nationalism and indeed their own site states they were founded for Scottish independence. This is their main aim, before everything else. | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south... The point is the snp have been voted in 3 yes 3 times so it seems the majority of scots beleive they are doing a good job and are doing what is best for scotland unlike labour or tories who have to do what they are told by their rulers in london ,and i do beleive you or anyone else havent answered the question of why we were begged to stay in the union if we are such a burden ? I have given two very detailed answers to that question. Page up and have a read. Criticise my words by all means but please don't say I haven't answered it." OP; You never did answer this question, so I will ask you again; . Do you honestly think England would thrive as it leaves the EU behind without the backing of Scotland? | |||
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" In regard to Scotlands "debt" and leaving aside her resources being used by the UK, I would rather pay more taxes and the £3000 or so I apparently get more than anyone else, so that we can have sink or swim by our own means and not living off another country... It's very easy to say such a thing but the reality is very very few people (if any) would vote to have such a substantial increase in taxes. Remember the SNP used to have a campaign for people to pay a mere 1 pence extra in the pound on their taxes and then quickly dropped it when they found out it wasn't popular. There's also a reason that even now they are in government they refuse to raise any taxes, it's because they know it's very unpopular. Most people when it comes down to it are concerned with their day to day lives rather than fairly meaningless concepts about wealth distribution so if you told them they'd be substantially worse off and the public services they rely on (NHS etc) would also be worse so they could tell themselves they weren't being partially subsidised by another area of the country then I think they'd prefer things to continue as they are. The same thing happens in all nations around the world" Which was why I said I would be happy to be IF I SAW THE MONEY USED TO FUND THINGS LIKE THE NHS ETC | |||
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"Interesting you seem to think that Ireland has a violent history but seem to believe Scotland, England or Wales does not... There was no equivalent to the IRA in Scotland, Wales or England was there? And how many bombs did Nationalists from those three nations plant? Violent does not mean bombs... historically yes all of them HAVE a violent history. and that Scotland lacks resources(and therefore presumably, NI and Wales do too)... With respect I didn't say they had no resources did I? I corrected your statement that England was using Scottish resources without paying or accounting for them. I didn't say that either I corrected your statement that Scotland doesn't pay her way... yet again I will point out that several groups trot out statistics to suit... we really don't know the truth... and THAT is the biggest problem today. I'll say that AGAIN too... ALL POLITICIANS AND POLITICAL GROUPS LIE. There is no political party in this country that has not fucked up our society royally. I see a lot of talk about "lefties" and people promoting what they think is a party that has the solution to the problems our country faces. The truth is every one of the major parties has had their shot and done very little to change anything. Why... greed, power, money. Also by that implication you think NI should be treated differently... I do believe that was the whole point of the IRA blowing things and people up... they thought it would make them a special case...
Answered above. But the IRA didn't want to be a special case they wanted to restore Ulster to Eire. It failed. And it failed because the whole of the UK stood by the people of Ulster who wished to remain British.
"But the IRA did want to be a special case... they wanted to be the only terrorist movement that got their way. | |||
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" Incidentally I am not sure if people are aware that the SNP is the Scottish National Party i.e. A party that has the good of Scotland at heart and not the Scottish Nationalist Party which would have an entirely different connotation. Apology for the multiple replies but I'm responding to seperate posts. The SNP are a nationalist party. Their name may be the Scottish National Party but that's more to do with the original names of the parties who merged to form them in 1943. Their ideology is Scottish nationalism and indeed their own site states they were founded for Scottish independence. This is their main aim, before everything else." It is and can see your point but I have heard it said that some (especially down south) think it has a similar policy to the BNP which is not the case | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south... The point is the snp have been voted in 3 yes 3 times so it seems the majority of scots beleive they are doing a good job and are doing what is best for scotland unlike labour or tories who have to do what they are told by their rulers in london ,and i do beleive you or anyone else havent answered the question of why we were begged to stay in the union if we are such a burden ? I have given two very detailed answers to that question. Page up and have a read. Criticise my words by all means but please don't say I haven't answered it. OP; You never did answer this question, so I will ask you again; . Do you honestly think England would thrive as it leaves the EU behind without the backing of Scotland?" Basic economic data says yes of course it would. The English economy supports the Scottish economy to the tune of some £15 Bn currently. Where is Scotland 'supporting' England there? Having said that as others, and indeed I, have noted it is not about just money. We are family, we share history, we share a beautiful island and we are physically attached despite Hadrian's best efforts. We are a Union of equals and celebrate our differences. But if Scotland acts like a bunch of mugs and that great ship of Scotland sails off into the North Sea (figuratively speaking) with Ms Sturgeon at the helm we will be very sad at your departure. But we will do OK thanks very much. Had you voted to leave in 2014 your shipbuilding industry would now be non-existent, your SNP Government would have run up a £30 Bn debt on top of the shared UK debt you would have inherited and you would still not be in the EU. You also would not have a currency or a Bank of Settlement. So more than likely Scotland would have been at the mercy of the IMF and become a worse than Greek basket case country. And meanwhile the rUK would have £30 Bn less of a deficit plus saved a further £13 Bn a year from the EU. The Prince of Wales would have been built in Belfast (which always had bigger graving docks and bigger cranes anyway), the QE would have been fitted out on Tyneside and the RPVs and Frigates would have been built in Portsmouth from modules built in all those same English shipbuilding docks that built the huge parts for the QE. So no we do not wish you to go (yet) but if you do I would advise you to look after yourselves rather than worry about rUK.... | |||
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" With respect; you are the OP that raised this issue and you are the one that is making most noise on this thread, Well I make no apologies for starting a Thread. Many do that on this Forum. And of the 93 posts I have made 17 (yes I just counted because I have the time being early retired). 2 were one word posts and two were to try and stop a usual suspect from hijacking my Thread into a Brexit pissing contest. My point about 'noise' was the amount of air time given to Sturgeon and Co compared to the size of the Scottish population. A period of silence from the woman would be appreciated down south... The point is the snp have been voted in 3 yes 3 times so it seems the majority of scots beleive they are doing a good job and are doing what is best for scotland unlike labour or tories who have to do what they are told by their rulers in london ,and i do beleive you or anyone else havent answered the question of why we were begged to stay in the union if we are such a burden ? I have given two very detailed answers to that question. Page up and have a read. Criticise my words by all means but please don't say I haven't answered it. OP; You never did answer this question, so I will ask you again; . Do you honestly think England would thrive as it leaves the EU behind without the backing of Scotland? Basic economic data says yes of course it would. The English economy supports the Scottish economy to the tune of some £15 Bn currently. Where is Scotland 'supporting' England there? Having said that as others, and indeed I, have noted it is not about just money. We are family, we share history, we share a beautiful island and we are physically attached despite Hadrian's best efforts. We are a Union of equals and celebrate our differences. But if Scotland acts like a bunch of mugs and that great ship of Scotland sails off into the North Sea (figuratively speaking) with Ms Sturgeon at the helm we will be very sad at your departure. But we will do OK thanks very much. Had you voted to leave in 2014 your shipbuilding industry would now be non-existent, your SNP Government would have run up a £30 Bn debt on top of the shared UK debt you would have inherited and you would still not be in the EU. You also would not have a currency or a Bank of Settlement. So more than likely Scotland would have been at the mercy of the IMF and become a worse than Greek basket case country. And meanwhile the rUK would have £30 Bn less of a deficit plus saved a further £13 Bn a year from the EU. The Prince of Wales would have been built in Belfast (which always had bigger graving docks and bigger cranes anyway), the QE would have been fitted out on Tyneside and the RPVs and Frigates would have been built in Portsmouth from modules built in all those same English shipbuilding docks that built the huge parts for the QE. So no we do not wish you to go (yet) but if you do I would advise you to look after yourselves rather than worry about rUK.... "
I knew you would not let me down
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" Which was why I said I would be happy to be IF I SAW THE MONEY USED TO FUND THINGS LIKE THE NHS ETC" The numbers involved are far too large to be covered by tax rises alone. There are approximately 2.7 million tax payers in Scotland so dividing that by £15bn would mean they would each have to pay an extra £5,500 per year. Now given a large number of those tax payers will be on low or average wages there will be no way they can afford anything like that so you are then asking middle or higher earners to pay an even higher amount. It's utterly impossible and would see many of those people taking their skills and moving elsewhere. As an example, if we took a couple who were both earning around the average wage they would have approx £56k per year. Out of that they are probably have a take home pay of roughly £40k between them and if they both had to pay £5.5k extra taxes then you are taking away 1/4 of their income. | |||
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" Which was why I said I would be happy to be IF I SAW THE MONEY USED TO FUND THINGS LIKE THE NHS ETC The numbers involved are far too large to be covered by tax rises alone. There are approximately 2.7 million tax payers in Scotland so dividing that by £15bn would mean they would each have to pay an extra £5,500 per year. Now given a large number of those tax payers will be on low or average wages there will be no way they can afford anything like that so you are then asking middle or higher earners to pay an even higher amount. It's utterly impossible and would see many of those people taking their skills and moving elsewhere. As an example, if we took a couple who were both earning around the average wage they would have approx £56k per year. Out of that they are probably have a take home pay of roughly £40k between them and if they both had to pay £5.5k extra taxes then you are taking away 1/4 of their income." We will need a wall then .. | |||
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"You don't need to build a wall. If we're going to leave the country to make a living elsewhere it's better at least finding somewhere that has better weather than we're used to "Good point well made ... | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland." We know that. And Scots know that. Can someone inform Ms Sturgeon please? | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. We know that. And Scots know that. Can someone inform Ms Sturgeon please? "indeed, but the SNP are the party that was voted into power and they are in the position of power at this moment | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. We know that. And Scots know that. Can someone inform Ms Sturgeon please?
indeed, but the SNP are the party that was voted into power and they are in the position of power at this moment"Well we all make mistakes ..
But on a serious point I think it is Sturgeon's lecturing tone towards the English / Westminster that annoys. Like she has some God given right to dictate UK Foreign Policy?. It is interesting to compare May's language about the Referendum and Sturgeon's. May says she knows not everyone voted for Leave and acts accordingly while Sturgeon speaks of 'All of Scotland voted Remain'... when they clearly didn't as over a million Scots voted Leave. | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. We know that. And Scots know that. Can someone inform Ms Sturgeon please?
indeed, but the SNP are the party that was voted into power and they are in the position of power at this moment
Well we all make mistakes ..
But on a serious point I think it is Sturgeon's lecturing tone towards the English / Westminster that annoys. Like she has some God given right to dictate UK Foreign Policy?. It is interesting to compare May's language about the Referendum and Sturgeon's. May says she knows not everyone voted for Leave and acts accordingly while Sturgeon speaks of 'All of Scotland voted Remain'... when they clearly didn't as over a million Scots voted Leave."indeed, I was one of the ones who voted to Leave As time goes on, the person to lead the SNP is John Sweeney, a very level headed man with a good head on his shoulders. | |||
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" As time goes on, the person to lead the SNP is John Sweeney, a very level headed man with a good head on his shoulders." I'm assuming you haven't seen the incredible advice Swinney (who I'm assuming you meant) has just given to teachers? I thought it was a spoof when I seen it at first. Also, here he is trying to explain some SNP double speak, i.e. children won't do tests they'll do assessments instead. Now what's the difference between a test and an assessment... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiVnl2WsjVk | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. We know that. And Scots know that. Can someone inform Ms Sturgeon please?
indeed, but the SNP are the party that was voted into power and they are in the position of power at this moment
Well we all make mistakes ..
But on a serious point I think it is Sturgeon's lecturing tone towards the English / Westminster that annoys. Like she has some God given right to dictate UK Foreign Policy?. It is interesting to compare May's language about the Referendum and Sturgeon's. May says she knows not everyone voted for Leave and acts accordingly while Sturgeon speaks of 'All of Scotland voted Remain'... when they clearly didn't as over a million Scots voted Leave.
indeed, I was one of the ones who voted to Leave
As time goes on, the person to lead the SNP is John Sweeney, a very level headed man with a good head on his shoulders."As the man responsible for Scotland's finances and economy since 2007 and therefore the man in charge when the deficits were being created I would reserve judgement. I am sure he is a decent family man but we are talking national politics and economies. | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. We know that. And Scots know that. Can someone inform Ms Sturgeon please?
indeed, but the SNP are the party that was voted into power and they are in the position of power at this moment
Well we all make mistakes ..
But on a serious point I think it is Sturgeon's lecturing tone towards the English / Westminster that annoys. Like she has some God given right to dictate UK Foreign Policy?. It is interesting to compare May's language about the Referendum and Sturgeon's. May says she knows not everyone voted for Leave and acts accordingly while Sturgeon speaks of 'All of Scotland voted Remain'... when they clearly didn't as over a million Scots voted Leave."I dont see her lecturing to anyone all i see is her trying to get the best deal for scotland which is her job ,and please name anyone from snp or show a link to anyone from snp saying all of scotland voted to remain as you have said this in a few post and i have asked you to show some proof | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland." No they dont mate but they have been voted in for a third term so its seems the majority of scots are happy with the work they are doing as liebour are dead in scotland and the tories are just looking out for their rich friends and that is why the majority of scots support and have voted snp | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. We know that. And Scots know that. Can someone inform Ms Sturgeon please?
indeed, but the SNP are the party that was voted into power and they are in the position of power at this moment
Well we all make mistakes ..
But on a serious point I think it is Sturgeon's lecturing tone towards the English / Westminster that annoys. Like she has some God given right to dictate UK Foreign Policy?. It is interesting to compare May's language about the Referendum and Sturgeon's. May says she knows not everyone voted for Leave and acts accordingly while Sturgeon speaks of 'All of Scotland voted Remain'... when they clearly didn't as over a million Scots voted Leave.
I dont see her lecturing to anyone all i see is her trying to get the best deal for scotland which is her job ,and please name anyone from snp or show a link to anyone from snp saying all of scotland voted to remain as you have said this in a few post and i have asked you to show some proof "This is the first time I have read anyone asking for proof of what Sturgeon said. Its not ME saying 'all of Scotland' its Sturgeon. OK the day after the EU vote. June 24th: "She claimed in a press conference at Bute House, her official residence in Edinburgh, where she was flanked by the Saltire and the EU flag, that it was "democratically unacceptable" for Scotland to be taken out of the EU against its will. Every part of the country voted to remain, and she said her government would now begin preparing legislation to enable another independence vote if the Scottish Parliament decided it was appropriate." The Telegraph. And as for lecturing when she says she can 'block' the United Kingdom from leaving the EU she is way over her pay grade. Foreign and Defence affairs are not devolved matters. The new UK PM has met with Sturgeon and will keep her informed as a matter of courtesy. Its a shame Sturgeon doesn't treat the rest of the UK with some respect and courtesy. But she is well out of order lecturing the whole UK on what it should and should not do. Now if you are saying Sturgeon has not said all of Scotland voted to Remain or has said not all of Scotland voted to Remain than that is fine by me but it isn't what I have heard in many interviews. But as I always say I am happy to be corrected although no one else seems to have the problem you raise. | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. No they dont mate but they have been voted in for a third term so its seems the majority of scots are happy with the work they are doing as liebour are dead in scotland and the tories are just looking out for their rich friends and that is why the majority of scots support and have voted snp" Hmmm .. yes all very laudable but it is us English that are funding the SNPs failure to manage the Scottish economy isn't it? Its very easy to be popular when you offload unpopular actions onto a neighbour. To the tune of some £15 Bn last year. Oh and you Scots also get more per person UK public spending as well: "In 2014/15, public spending per head in the UK as a whole was £8,913: • Northern Ireland: £11,106 (25% above the UK average) • Scotland: £10,374 (16% above the UK average) • Wales: £9,904 (11% above the UK average) • England: £8,638 (3% below the UK average)" Source: www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04033.pdf Which means you as a Scot get an additional £1,736 MORE spent on you than me here in England. I don't know about you but I think that is pretty unfair. lets see how popular the SNP are and Ms Sturgeon is when YOU are paying some £5k a year extra in tax and get £1700 a year less in UK spending. After all she does like equality and democracy does she not? | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. We know that. And Scots know that. Can someone inform Ms Sturgeon please?
indeed, but the SNP are the party that was voted into power and they are in the position of power at this moment
Well we all make mistakes ..
But on a serious point I think it is Sturgeon's lecturing tone towards the English / Westminster that annoys. Like she has some God given right to dictate UK Foreign Policy?. It is interesting to compare May's language about the Referendum and Sturgeon's. May says she knows not everyone voted for Leave and acts accordingly while Sturgeon speaks of 'All of Scotland voted Remain'... when they clearly didn't as over a million Scots voted Leave.
I dont see her lecturing to anyone all i see is her trying to get the best deal for scotland which is her job ,and please name anyone from snp or show a link to anyone from snp saying all of scotland voted to remain as you have said this in a few post and i have asked you to show some proof
This is the first time I have read anyone asking for proof of what Sturgeon said. Its not ME saying 'all of Scotland' its Sturgeon.
OK the day after the EU vote. June 24th:
"She claimed in a press conference at Bute House, her official residence in Edinburgh, where she was flanked by the Saltire and the EU flag, that it was "democratically unacceptable" for Scotland to be taken out of the EU against its will.
Every part of the country voted to remain, and she said her government would now begin preparing legislation to enable another independence vote if the Scottish Parliament decided it was appropriate."
The Telegraph.
And as for lecturing when she says she can 'block' the United Kingdom from leaving the EU she is way over her pay grade. Foreign and Defence affairs are not devolved matters. The new UK PM has met with Sturgeon and will keep her informed as a matter of courtesy. Its a shame Sturgeon doesn't treat the rest of the UK with some respect and courtesy. But she is well out of order lecturing the whole UK on what it should and should not do.
Now if you are saying Sturgeon has not said all of Scotland voted to Remain or has said not all of Scotland voted to Remain than that is fine by me but it isn't what I have heard in many interviews.
But as I always say I am happy to be corrected although no one else seems to have the problem you raise.
"Now see you only used bits of that speech that suit you she actually said every scottish council region voted remain which they did and iver all 62% of scots who voted did so to remain but you left that bit out lol and again FUD | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. No they dont mate but they have been voted in for a third term so its seems the majority of scots are happy with the work they are doing as liebour are dead in scotland and the tories are just looking out for their rich friends and that is why the majority of scots support and have voted snp Hmmm .. yes all very laudable but it is us English that are funding the SNPs failure to manage the Scottish economy isn't it? Its very easy to be popular when you offload unpopular actions onto a neighbour. To the tune of some £15 Bn last year. Oh and you Scots also get more per person UK public spending as well: "In 2014/15, public spending per head in the UK as a whole was £8,913: • Northern Ireland: £11,106 (25% above the UK average) • Scotland: £10,374 (16% above the UK average) • Wales: £9,904 (11% above the UK average) • England: £8,638 (3% below the UK average)" Source: www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04033.pdf Which means you as a Scot get an additional £1,736 MORE spent on you than me here in England. I don't know about you but I think that is pretty unfair. lets see how popular the SNP are and Ms Sturgeon is when YOU are paying some £5k a year extra in tax and get £1700 a year less in UK spending. After all she does like equality and democracy does she not?" Psssst ---- "us English" . "us English" . I am sure we all pay into the same tax bucket, or do you mean the UK . realistically, that is your problem, you continue to use your "us English against the world phrases in every thread you make" . you need to remove that heavy chip from your shoulders. | |||
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"Again remember the snp don't talk or represent all of Scotland. No they dont mate but they have been voted in for a third term so its seems the majority of scots are happy with the work they are doing as liebour are dead in scotland and the tories are just looking out for their rich friends and that is why the majority of scots support and have voted snp Hmmm .. yes all very laudable but it is us English that are funding the SNPs failure to manage the Scottish economy isn't it? Its very easy to be popular when you offload unpopular actions onto a neighbour. To the tune of some £15 Bn last year. Oh and you Scots also get more per person UK public spending as well: "In 2014/15, public spending per head in the UK as a whole was £8,913: • Northern Ireland: £11,106 (25% above the UK average) • Scotland: £10,374 (16% above the UK average) • Wales: £9,904 (11% above the UK average) • England: £8,638 (3% below the UK average)" Source: www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04033.pdf Which means you as a Scot get an additional £1,736 MORE spent on you than me here in England. I don't know about you but I think that is pretty unfair. lets see how popular the SNP are and Ms Sturgeon is when YOU are paying some £5k a year extra in tax and get £1700 a year less in UK spending. After all she does like equality and democracy does she not? Psssst ---- "us English" . "us English" . I am sure we all pay into the same tax bucket, or do you mean the UK . realistically, that is your problem, you continue to use your "us English against the world phrases in every thread you make" . you need to remove that heavy chip from your shoulders." Well said, its not a chip... It's a fish supper. I'm not as "clever" as he is go trotting out whatever quotes and statistics he finds to suit his biased beliefs. I do know the pro independence side makes equally valid sounding statements. What I have observed is the OP and his ilk have professed to see Scotland, England, NI and Wales as part of the UK and that due to an abiding shared history and friendship he does not want us to leave. Yet his posts are also shaded by subtle and outright implications of how England keeps us all. It's this attitude that is why the other countries do not want to stay. Would any county or person stay in any relationship where your equality or contribution is doubted and constantly crowed over you?? It smacks of an abusive husband who beats his wife to keep her exactly where he wants her. It's no light statement from me to say YES I'd leave the union tomorrow no matter the cost rather than be a drain on England (not that's true) and work like hell paying whatever I need to get Scotland back on track no matter how long it takes. Again... I doubt ANY POLITICIAN ALIVE is honest enough to do that. The world is lacking in honest leadership. I know the OP is incapable of seeing any other viewpoint on this and that is fine, he is entitled to his wrong opinion
I'll simply say we shall agree to differ.
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"Scotland is part of the Uk . So let's have a Uk vote on them leaving the Uk like we did the E U And I'm pretty sure Scotland would become independent as I and many English would be glad to see them go alone ! In fact let's go further let all 4 countries have a vote on indepence ! I would vote for an independent England !" perhaps, but just remember one thing YOU; will never have a vote | |||
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"Scotland is part of the Uk . So let's have a Uk vote on them leaving the Uk like we did the E U And I'm pretty sure Scotland would become independent as I and many English would be glad to see them go alone ! In fact let's go further let all 4 countries have a vote on indepence ! I would vote for an independent England ! perhaps, but just remember one thing YOU; will never have a vote "Yeah and I'm wondering exactly what some think these proportions are for who can survive alone??? Is it possible that England MAY be the biggest single contributer but collectively the other three still make up more than 50%. That would still mean We are all reliant on each other which is what a UNITED kingdom should promote not a "we keep you" mentality which creates division. | |||
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"Scotland is part of the Uk . So let's have a Uk vote on them leaving the Uk like we did the E U And I'm pretty sure Scotland would become independent as I and many English would be glad to see them go alone ! In fact let's go further let all 4 countries have a vote on indepence ! I would vote for an independent England ! perhaps, but just remember one thing YOU; will never have a vote "Why ? | |||
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Yes I want English Independence ! | |||
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"Ok let Engalnd leave ! Then the other three can play happily together
Yes I want English Independence !"I agree with no malice offered, I've stated that throughout the whole thread. I hold no bias against any nation colour or creed but I knew the moment I pointed out the OP's passive aggressive attitude it would elicit someone with your response. I'd be happy to see all our countries govern themselves, I think they are all capable. I think we are also capable of being a successful Union as long as one of them is not an overbearing bully. Britain used to have an Empire as did Greece and Italy (Rome). They all used other countries resources in the most Inhumaritan ways but that was wrong and that was then. All civilisations are born, culminate and die. Look at Greece now and the British Empire is almost dead too. We need to stop thinking of ourselves in such terms and think globally but right now no political group in the world does. Being in control of your countries own resources does not prevent this but attitude does. It's a bigger picture | |||
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"Scotland is part of the Uk . So let's have a Uk vote on them leaving the Uk like we did the E U And I'm pretty sure Scotland would become independent as I and many English would be glad to see them go alone ! In fact let's go further let all 4 countries have a vote on indepence ! I would vote for an independent England ! perhaps, but just remember one thing YOU; will never have a vote
Why ? "Because those in power know they are stronger in the union on the World forum and don't want to be a even Smaller fish in that big pond. They need Wales NI and Scotland to give them That Wee bit more ceredibility as a united Nation rather than a Wee country. Appreciating that instead of telling us all how thankful we should be might be a better way to get it and create that Family, friendship, shared heritage thing they speak of. At present people like the OP say we are a union on the one hand but taken right back with the other. That's ONE reason why many Scots want to give independence a go. Be worse off but listen to the patronising influence of a partnership that tells you how useless you are OR have to face some hard choices and decisions but be master of your own fate. There's no choice for me. Incidentally I'll underline YET AGAIN I hold no prejudice of any kind and I think the problem lies in the greedy, selfish power hungry rich in business and politics as well as those who try to screw and abuse the wonderful systems we have in place to help the sick and impoverished. Until THAT changes we will never see true humanitarianism and equality. | |||
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"I do truly belive in an independent England but I would want remain friends with the other three ! We are Seperate country's and always will be at heart ! Just look at the way the welsh and scot street the Uk anthem at football matches , tho Northern Ireland sing God Save The Queen ! " Seperate does not have to mean unfriendly I agree totally and despite what you may read into things I would like to reiterate I am in no way anti English but your statement re the National Anthem shows further ignorance. Do you really expect me to stand up and sing proudly a song that once contained the lyric "rebellious" Scots to crush"... Wonder if the OP thinks that's just a part of our "shared heritage and history" that had no violence... I won't even mention The Clearances... Oops too late | |||
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"A myopic viewpoint my friend but good luck too. " Isn't nationalism a myopic viewpoint? Trying to frame a world view or a philosophical outlook around an arbitary line that was drawn on a map hundreds of years ago? Ridiculous though it sounds there are many who are trying to do that right now. Telling us that somehow people who are 20 miles accross one side of this line are different from people who are 20 miles accross the other side. It all sounds pretty bizarre to me. | |||
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"A while back I was in a chemist getting a prescription and was behind a Scottish guy who was indignant because he had to pay for his. Becaus he got his free while at home but not here, I wonder what will happen if they ever do go independant will it still be free then ? If they have to live by their means then no I don't think it will continue There are a lot of privileges enjoyed by Scots people that are not shared by the rest of the UK. The SNP are therefore spending more than their revenues, as they have always done given their Socialist tendencies, which means they have always run a deficit even when oil was at $100 a barrel. The extra amount spent on a Scots person compared to the rest of the UK is now some £1600. That cannot possibly be either right or sustainable. So how will the SNP reduce that deficit? And who will the SNP blame when they don't? Brexit? Sturgeon sowed those seeds earlier this week." sorry but this statement is incorrect we have the NHS that's about it its paid for by our tax so that's why prescriptions are free | |||
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"I do truly belive in an independent England but I would want remain friends with the other three ! We are Seperate country's and always will be at heart ! Just look at the way the welsh and scot street the Uk anthem at football matches , tho Northern Ireland sing God Save The Queen ! Seperate does not have to mean unfriendly I agree totally and despite what you may read into things I would like to reiterate I am in no way anti English but your statement re the National Anthem shows further ignorance. Do you really expect me to stand up and sing proudly a song that once contained the lyric "rebellious" Scots to crush"... Wonder if the OP thinks that's just a part of our "shared heritage and history" that had no violence... I won't even mention The Clearances... Oops too late "took the words right out of my mouth; Scots to crush"... | |||
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"I do truly belive in an independent England but I would want remain friends with the other three ! We are Seperate country's and always will be at heart ! Just look at the way the welsh and scot street the Uk anthem at football matches , tho Northern Ireland sing God Save The Queen ! Seperate does not have to mean unfriendly I agree totally and despite what you may read into things I would like to reiterate I am in no way anti English but your statement re the National Anthem shows further ignorance. Do you really expect me to stand up and sing proudly a song that once contained the lyric "rebellious" Scots to crush"... Wonder if the OP thinks that's just a part of our "shared heritage and history" that had no violence... I won't even mention The Clearances... Oops too late
took the words right out of my mouth; Scots to crush"... "How violent... But that's ok we're family and have a rich shared history... | |||
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"A myopic viewpoint my friend but good luck too. Isn't nationalism a myopic viewpoint? Trying to frame a world view or a philosophical outlook around an arbitary line that was drawn on a map hundreds of years ago? Ridiculous though it sounds there are many who are trying to do that right now. Telling us that somehow people who are 20 miles accross one side of this line are different from people who are 20 miles accross the other side. It all sounds pretty bizarre to me." I agree and if you read my comments further back you can see that. Other comments are in response to ones made. | |||
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"I do truly belive in an independent England but I would want remain friends with the other three ! We are Seperate country's and always will be at heart ! Just look at the way the welsh and scot street the Uk anthem at football matches , tho Northern Ireland sing God Save The Queen ! Seperate does not have to mean unfriendly I agree totally and despite what you may read into things I would like to reiterate I am in no way anti English but your statement re the National Anthem shows further ignorance. Do you really expect me to stand up and sing proudly a song that once contained the lyric "rebellious" Scots to crush"... Wonder if the OP thinks that's just a part of our "shared heritage and history" that had no violence... I won't even mention The Clearances... Oops too late "Errr but it's ok for the Scots to Sing Flower of Scotland besting Edwards Army an Sending him Home Again ! | |||
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"I do truly belive in an independent England but I would want remain friends with the other three ! We are Seperate country's and always will be at heart ! Just look at the way the welsh and scot street the Uk anthem at football matches , tho Northern Ireland sing God Save The Queen ! Seperate does not have to mean unfriendly I agree totally and despite what you may read into things I would like to reiterate I am in no way anti English but your statement re the National Anthem shows further ignorance. Do you really expect me to stand up and sing proudly a song that once contained the lyric "rebellious" Scots to crush"... Wonder if the OP thinks that's just a part of our "shared heritage and history" that had no violence... I won't even mention The Clearances... Oops too late
Errr but it's ok for the Scots to Sing Flower of Scotland besting Edwards Army an Sending him Home Again !"I agree with you, that too is a poor choice of Anthem. Personally I feel Scotland the Brave would have been better
There have been and there are many things that could be thrown in any ring to cause humans to disagree, we are an aggressive species but we are also gifted with the intelligence to overcome that and use that drive for the benefit of humanity which was my initial point when I entered this debate. My replies re anthem etc are by way of explaining why some feel the way they do and to try and illustrate that the OP has a biased opinion and a passive/aggressive outlook.
The division of loyalty that people will fight about can be in many ways... Religion, country, football team, gender, colour... Until we resolve these or at least improve them greatly (and the greed power thing) then such debate will never end. Perhaps it's an intrinsic part of us and that same aggressive drive is what also makes us successful as a species. My point is the incessant bickering takes away from using our energies more productively.
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"I would like to see 4 Seperate country's but too be always Thier to help each other "Seeing that world wide would be even nicer | |||
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"Some Scots on here seem to have been totally duped by the SNP. Well that is fine and dandy and OK by me and good luck to you all. Enjoy finding all that extra tax or the consequent spending cuts this year. Oh wait she didn't explain that in May? Ms Fire can be as sarcastic and misrepresent my views as much as she like and others can say I have a chip etc ... but have any of these dreamers found any facts to contradict my statements or opinions? No none. And so it goes on. And I find it quite odd to have an expression of shared values and wanting the family that is the Union to remain together regardless of the cost to the rest of the UK as something to be laughed at and piss taken. Maybe I should just say 'Do please leave' as many of my English and Welsh friends are now saying thanks to the gobby Ms Sturgeon. But there is a part of me that does not want a beautiful and historic part of the UK to disintegrate into an economic basket case alone with no friends. Maybe some people need to differentiate the political party that is the SNP and the Scottish people and country. To feel a hatred for a political ideology that seeks to destroy MY country called the UK and the party that promotes it is NOT IN ANY WAY anti-Scottish or a chip on my shoulder about Scotland. But I really don't give a flying one if that is what people think. I won't be paying the bills any more... "actually, you will be paying the bills for as long as you continue to pay tax after all we need our brand new "Queensferry Bridge" (Forth road bridge) and ofcourse the duelling of the A9 all the way from Perth to Inverness, I wont go on and mention free prescriptions, free university education -no tuition fees, even if they attend a university in England , free eye tests, free heating & residential care costs for pensioners, free oh wait I better not mention this one, it will really upset you . cant you find a second job to contribute more taxes | |||
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"Some Scots on here seem to have been totally duped by the SNP. Well that is fine and dandy and OK by me and good luck to you all. Enjoy finding all that extra tax or the consequent spending cuts this year. Oh wait she didn't explain that in May? Ms Fire can be as sarcastic and misrepresent my views as much as she like and others can say I have a chip etc ... but have any of these dreamers found any facts to contradict my statements or opinions? No none. And so it goes on. And I find it quite odd to have an expression of shared values and wanting the family that is the Union to remain together regardless of the cost to the rest of the UK as something to be laughed at and piss taken. Maybe I should just say 'Do please leave' as many of my English and Welsh friends are now saying thanks to the gobby Ms Sturgeon. But there is a part of me that does not want a beautiful and historic part of the UK to disintegrate into an economic basket case alone with no friends. Maybe some people need to differentiate the political party that is the SNP and the Scottish people and country. To feel a hatred for a political ideology that seeks to destroy MY country called the UK and the party that promotes it is NOT IN ANY WAY anti-Scottish or a chip on my shoulder about Scotland. But I really don't give a flying one if that is what people think. I won't be paying the bills any more... "And all of that my dear OP is like everyones comments... merely your opinion. Interesting you think I am sarcastic... which are you the pot or the kettle. Thanks for an interesting debate... I note most of my points are either ignored or taken wrongly... funny how some can dish attitude or sentiment yet very rarely take it. | |||
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"I would like to see 4 Seperate country's but too be always Thier to help each other ". It doesn't work like that though, I mean don't get me wrong it sounds lovely.... It's like saying i like everybody at the Olympics to be competing individuals but if somebody's a shit runner then bolt should run a bit slower, if somebody trips he should run back and help them up.... What you'd get would be lovely but the world record would never be broken there'd be no advancement, in effect what we are now is the 4x100 sprint team and bolts dragging the other three along with him!. . . I'd love the world to be a utopia but I learnt long ago it's not going to happen for a long long time, in the meantime we need competition to drive innovation and productivity, things that actually improve your and everybody else's life.... Maybe there's room for more compassion but compassion cannot replace competition | |||
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"Some Scots on here seem to have been totally duped by the SNP. Well that is fine and dandy and OK by me and good luck to you all. Enjoy finding all that extra tax or the consequent spending cuts this year. Oh wait she didn't explain that in May? Ms Fire can be as sarcastic and misrepresent my views as much as she like and others can say I have a chip etc ... but have any of these dreamers found any facts to contradict my statements or opinions? No none. And so it goes on. And I find it quite odd to have an expression of shared values and wanting the family that is the Union to remain together regardless of the cost to the rest of the UK as something to be laughed at and piss taken. Maybe I should just say 'Do please leave' as many of my English and Welsh friends are now saying thanks to the gobby Ms Sturgeon. But there is a part of me that does not want a beautiful and historic part of the UK to disintegrate into an economic basket case alone with no friends. Maybe some people need to differentiate the political party that is the SNP and the Scottish people and country. To feel a hatred for a political ideology that seeks to destroy MY country called the UK and the party that promotes it is NOT IN ANY WAY anti-Scottish or a chip on my shoulder about Scotland. But I really don't give a flying one if that is what people think. I won't be paying the bills any more...
And all of that my dear OP is like everyones comments... merely your opinion. Interesting you think I am sarcastic... which are you the pot or the kettle. Thanks for an interesting debate... I note most of my points are either ignored or taken wrongly... funny how some can dish attitude or sentiment yet very rarely take it.
"And wow there is a surprise! I have an opinion just as you do... Do please read the Thread again maybe a bit more carefully. I have provided a string of information, data and sources and answered all your points carefully. If I have missed any do please remind me. You? Nothing. Even in my last post I try to call your attention to the difference between SNP politics and the Scottish people. Sadly you can't seem to see that. Oh and I can take and dish factual discussion. Bring it on if you have any to add to the Thread... | |||
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"Some Scots on here seem to have been totally duped by the SNP. Well that is fine and dandy and OK by me and good luck to you all. Enjoy finding all that extra tax or the consequent spending cuts this year. Oh wait she didn't explain that in May? Ms Fire can be as sarcastic and misrepresent my views as much as she like and others can say I have a chip etc ... but have any of these dreamers found any facts to contradict my statements or opinions? No none. And so it goes on. And I find it quite odd to have an expression of shared values and wanting the family that is the Union to remain together regardless of the cost to the rest of the UK as something to be laughed at and piss taken. Maybe I should just say 'Do please leave' as many of my English and Welsh friends are now saying thanks to the gobby Ms Sturgeon. But there is a part of me that does not want a beautiful and historic part of the UK to disintegrate into an economic basket case alone with no friends. Maybe some people need to differentiate the political party that is the SNP and the Scottish people and country. To feel a hatred for a political ideology that seeks to destroy MY country called the UK and the party that promotes it is NOT IN ANY WAY anti-Scottish or a chip on my shoulder about Scotland. But I really don't give a flying one if that is what people think. I won't be paying the bills any more...
actually, you will be paying the bills for as long as you continue to pay tax
after all we need our brand new "Queensferry Bridge" (Forth road bridge) and ofcourse the duelling of the A9 all the way from Perth to Inverness, I wont go on and mention free prescriptions, free university education -no tuition fees, even if they attend a university in England
, free eye tests, free heating & residential care costs for pensioners, free oh wait I better not mention this one, it will really upset you
.
cant you find a second job to contribute more taxes"A second job Old Son? I don't even need a first one thanks ...(and no I funded my own early retirement to avoid a misunderstanding). So tell us how much Scottish Steel went into your lovely new Queensferry Bridge then? .. And I do hope the Chinese engineers building it allowed for the first of the two new carriers the UK are paying you guys to build to pass underneath later this year. Just asking like ... But I must thank you for making my point so well for me. So we English paying our taxes do support the Scottish people's way of life after all then? No worries .. Except I think you have a bit of a financial shock coming. As of this year it is the Scottish Government's responsibility to 'balance the books' as they now have every fiscal power they need and asked for. If they do not achieve a fiscal balance then we English will of course underwrite the difference. But expect an 'adjustment' in the cash that comes from the UK Treasury in Barnett Formula and other payments. Lord Barnett says the Formula was a temporary measure and should be scrapped. I blame 1880s Chancellor George Goschen myself ...
And the SNP can't balance the books can they? They mugged you Scots with promises of the Socialist Nirvana you just illustrated. Quite how the lovely Ms Sturgeon would also fund the defence of the Scottish people (£2.8 Bn this year) and a Foreign Office as well are questions maybe we better not ask. | |||
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"Some Scots on here seem to have been totally duped by the SNP. Well that is fine and dandy and OK by me and good luck to you all. Enjoy finding all that extra tax or the consequent spending cuts this year. Oh wait she didn't explain that in May? Ms Fire can be as sarcastic and misrepresent my views as much as she like and others can say I have a chip etc ... but have any of these dreamers found any facts to contradict my statements or opinions? No none. And so it goes on. And I find it quite odd to have an expression of shared values and wanting the family that is the Union to remain together regardless of the cost to the rest of the UK as something to be laughed at and piss taken. Maybe I should just say 'Do please leave' as many of my English and Welsh friends are now saying thanks to the gobby Ms Sturgeon. But there is a part of me that does not want a beautiful and historic part of the UK to disintegrate into an economic basket case alone with no friends. Maybe some people need to differentiate the political party that is the SNP and the Scottish people and country. To feel a hatred for a political ideology that seeks to destroy MY country called the UK and the party that promotes it is NOT IN ANY WAY anti-Scottish or a chip on my shoulder about Scotland. But I really don't give a flying one if that is what people think. I won't be paying the bills any more...
actually, you will be paying the bills for as long as you continue to pay tax
after all we need our brand new "Queensferry Bridge" (Forth road bridge) and ofcourse the duelling of the A9 all the way from Perth to Inverness, I wont go on and mention free prescriptions, free university education -no tuition fees, even if they attend a university in England
, free eye tests, free heating & residential care costs for pensioners, free oh wait I better not mention this one, it will really upset you
.
cant you find a second job to contribute more taxes
A second job Old Son? I don't even need a first one thanks ...(and no I funded my own early retirement to avoid a misunderstanding).
So tell us how much Scottish Steel went into your lovely new Queensferry Bridge then? .. And I do hope the Chinese engineers building it allowed for the first of the two new carriers the UK are paying you guys to build to pass underneath later this year. Just asking like ...
But I must thank you for making my point so well for me. So we English paying our taxes do support the Scottish people's way of life after all then? No worries ..
Except I think you have a bit of a financial shock coming. As of this year it is the Scottish Government's responsibility to 'balance the books' as they now have every fiscal power they need and asked for. If they do not achieve a fiscal balance then we English will of course underwrite the difference. But expect an 'adjustment' in the cash that comes from the UK Treasury in Barnett Formula and other payments. Lord Barnett says the Formula was a temporary measure and should be scrapped. I blame 1880s Chancellor George Goschen myself ...
And the SNP can't balance the books can they? They mugged you Scots with promises of the Socialist Nirvana you just illustrated. Quite how the lovely Ms Sturgeon would also fund the defence of the Scottish people (£2.8 Bn this year) and a Foreign Office as well are questions maybe we better not ask. "you are drawn in every time, your favourite comments "You Scots" - "Us English" honest mate, find a hobby, find some friends, you need to get this chip of your shoulder and realise you live in the UK, tell me what the "U" stands for in UK. you spend too much time debating things when you should be out enjoying life, but heck, going out might mean you bump into a Scot or two, that would be suicidal for you. | |||
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"A myopic viewpoint my friend but good luck too. Isn't nationalism a myopic viewpoint? Trying to frame a world view or a philosophical outlook around an arbitary line that was drawn on a map hundreds of years ago? Ridiculous though it sounds there are many who are trying to do that right now. Telling us that somehow people who are 20 miles accross one side of this line are different from people who are 20 miles accross the other side. It all sounds pretty bizarre to me." Well said. Very true | |||
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" you are drawn in every time your favourite comments "You Scots" - "Us English" honest mate, find a hobby, find some friends, you need to get this chip of your shoulder and realise you live in the UK, tell me what the "U" stands for in UK. you spend too much time debating things when you should be out enjoying life, but heck, going out might mean you bump into a Scot or two, that would be suicidal for you." Yes I am drawn to comment in a political forum on political matters. SURPRISE! And you again fabricate the image I dislike Scots or that God forbid I should ever meet one. My only criticisms have been about the SNP and NEVER the Scots or Scotland. I have expressed nothing but friendship and indeed sympathy for the mess 'You Scots' will be having to face this and next year. Here is another shock. I have Scottish family and friends who totally agree with me. My Son in Law is Scottish and is in the Military. Guess what his nickname in his unit and at home is? 'Jock'... Maybe if you took off your condescending and superior head and actually read what is written you will see I am a lifelong Unionist and gave many reasons why I am earlier to another Scot. Who then thought taking the piss was a quality reply. | |||
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" you are drawn in every time your favourite comments "You Scots" - "Us English" honest mate, find a hobby, find some friends, you need to get this chip of your shoulder and realise you live in the UK, tell me what the "U" stands for in UK. you spend too much time debating things when you should be out enjoying life, but heck, going out might mean you bump into a Scot or two, that would be suicidal for you. Yes I am drawn to comment in a political forum on political matters. SURPRISE! And you again fabricate the image I dislike Scots or that God forbid I should ever meet one. My only criticisms have been about the SNP and NEVER the Scots or Scotland. I have expressed nothing but friendship and indeed sympathy for the mess 'You Scots' will be having to face this and next year. Here is another shock. I have Scottish family and friends who totally agree with me. My Son in Law is Scottish and is in the Military. Guess what his nickname in his unit and at home is? 'Jock'... Maybe if you took off your condescending and superior head and actually read what is written you will see I am a lifelong Unionist and gave many reasons why I am earlier to another Scot. Who then thought taking the piss was a quality reply. "I know I said I was gone... But seriously OP... If WE took off ou condescending and superior heads... Have you actually read your own posts objectively.... Projection springs to mind... My "sarcastic" comments were in kind to your own... You've studiously avoided my point that modern politics is self gratifying and fuels division to that end. I've expressed my exasperation and love for all race colour and creed (as Kenny Everrett sang, the "Brother-lee-love) There is much historically to be proud of in being Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish or any nationality. And also much to be ashamed of. Can I ask you then... Your post with its supposed support of the Scots... Is it in then in some kind of agreed outrage we have been stitched up???? Because it really does come over as condescending and near racist... That's a serious and non sarcastic question. Maybe you should also read what is written btw Fire | |||
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" you are drawn in every time your favourite comments "You Scots" - "Us English" honest mate, find a hobby, find some friends, you need to get this chip of your shoulder and realise you live in the UK, tell me what the "U" stands for in UK. you spend too much time debating things when you should be out enjoying life, but heck, going out might mean you bump into a Scot or two, that would be suicidal for you. Yes I am drawn to comment in a political forum on political matters. SURPRISE! And you again fabricate the image I dislike Scots or that God forbid I should ever meet one. My only criticisms have been about the SNP and NEVER the Scots or Scotland. I have expressed nothing but friendship and indeed sympathy for the mess 'You Scots' will be having to face this and next year. Here is another shock. I have Scottish family and friends who totally agree with me. My Son in Law is Scottish and is in the Military. Guess what his nickname in his unit and at home is? 'Jock'... Maybe if you took off your condescending and superior head and actually read what is written you will see I am a lifelong Unionist and gave many reasons why I am earlier to another Scot. Who then thought taking the piss was a quality reply.
I know I said I was gone... But seriously OP... If WE took off ou condescending and superior heads... Have you actually read your own posts objectively.... Projection springs to mind...
My "sarcastic" comments were in kind to your own... You've studiously avoided my point that modern politics is self gratifying and fuels division to that end. I've expressed my exasperation and love for all race colour and creed (as Kenny Everrett sang, the "Brother-lee-love)
There is much historically to be proud of in being Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish or any nationality. And also much to be ashamed of.
Can I ask you then... Your post with its supposed support of the Scots... Is it in then in some kind of agreed outrage we have been stitched up???? Because it really does come over as condescending and near racist... That's a serious and non sarcastic question.
Maybe you should also read what is written btw
Fire
"Firstly I was replying to a particular post (as you well know) and NOT calling every Scot 'condescending'. But hey it makes good copy to fabricate a false situation ....
I was about repeat yet again how I differentiate between the SNP and Scots people but then got as far as the word 'racist' and sort of lost interest...
Bye. | |||
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" you are drawn in every time your favourite comments "You Scots" - "Us English" honest mate, find a hobby, find some friends, you need to get this chip of your shoulder and realise you live in the UK, tell me what the "U" stands for in UK. you spend too much time debating things when you should be out enjoying life, but heck, going out might mean you bump into a Scot or two, that would be suicidal for you. Yes I am drawn to comment in a political forum on political matters. SURPRISE! And you again fabricate the image I dislike Scots or that God forbid I should ever meet one. My only criticisms have been about the SNP and NEVER the Scots or Scotland. I have expressed nothing but friendship and indeed sympathy for the mess 'You Scots' will be having to face this and next year. Here is another shock. I have Scottish family and friends who totally agree with me. My Son in Law is Scottish and is in the Military. Guess what his nickname in his unit and at home is? 'Jock'... Maybe if you took off your condescending and superior head and actually read what is written you will see I am a lifelong Unionist and gave many reasons why I am earlier to another Scot. Who then thought taking the piss was a quality reply.
I know I said I was gone... But seriously OP... If WE took off ou condescending and superior heads... Have you actually read your own posts objectively.... Projection springs to mind...
My "sarcastic" comments were in kind to your own... You've studiously avoided my point that modern politics is self gratifying and fuels division to that end. I've expressed my exasperation and love for all race colour and creed (as Kenny Everrett sang, the "Brother-lee-love)
There is much historically to be proud of in being Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish or any nationality. And also much to be ashamed of.
Can I ask you then... Your post with its supposed support of the Scots... Is it in then in some kind of agreed outrage we have been stitched up???? Because it really does come over as condescending and near racist... That's a serious and non sarcastic question.
Maybe you should also read what is written btw
Fire
Firstly I was replying to a particular post (as you well know) and NOT calling every Scot 'condescending'. But hey it makes good copy to fabricate a false situation ....
I was about repeat yet again how I differentiate between the SNP and Scots people but then got as far as the word 'racist' and sort of lost interest...
Bye."actually NO, your comment is incorrect, on many threads you start, you not only bad mouth the SNP but also Scots who vote for them which is probably around 46% of all Scots who voted. saying they are incompetent and they believe the lies the SNP tells them you need to read back all the threads you start as I guess memory reduces with age | |||
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" you are drawn in every time your favourite comments "You Scots" - "Us English" honest mate, find a hobby, find some friends, you need to get this chip of your shoulder and realise you live in the UK, tell me what the "U" stands for in UK. you spend too much time debating things when you should be out enjoying life, but heck, going out might mean you bump into a Scot or two, that would be suicidal for you. Yes I am drawn to comment in a political forum on political matters. SURPRISE! And you again fabricate the image I dislike Scots or that God forbid I should ever meet one. My only criticisms have been about the SNP and NEVER the Scots or Scotland. I have expressed nothing but friendship and indeed sympathy for the mess 'You Scots' will be having to face this and next year. Here is another shock. I have Scottish family and friends who totally agree with me. My Son in Law is Scottish and is in the Military. Guess what his nickname in his unit and at home is? 'Jock'... Maybe if you took off your condescending and superior head and actually read what is written you will see I am a lifelong Unionist and gave many reasons why I am earlier to another Scot. Who then thought taking the piss was a quality reply.
I know I said I was gone... But seriously OP... If WE took off ou condescending and superior heads... Have you actually read your own posts objectively.... Projection springs to mind...
My "sarcastic" comments were in kind to your own... You've studiously avoided my point that modern politics is self gratifying and fuels division to that end. I've expressed my exasperation and love for all race colour and creed (as Kenny Everrett sang, the "Brother-lee-love)
There is much historically to be proud of in being Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish or any nationality. And also much to be ashamed of.
Can I ask you then... Your post with its supposed support of the Scots... Is it in then in some kind of agreed outrage we have been stitched up???? Because it really does come over as condescending and near racist... That's a serious and non sarcastic question.
Maybe you should also read what is written btw
Fire
Firstly I was replying to a particular post (as you well know) and NOT calling every Scot 'condescending'. But hey it makes good copy to fabricate a false situation ....
I was about repeat yet again how I differentiate between the SNP and Scots people but then got as far as the word 'racist' and sort of lost interest...
Bye.
actually NO, your comment is incorrect, on many threads you start, you not only bad mouth the SNP but also Scots who vote for them which is probably around 46% of all Scots who voted.
saying they are incompetent and they believe the lies the SNP tells them
you need to read back all the threads you start as I guess memory reduces with age"Yes I am drawn again .... To your blatant misrepresentation. I have made many posts about my respect for and love of Scotland and the Scots and my lifelong Unionist beliefs. Sadly some of my military style endearments are now classed as racist by some and so that has been stopped out of respect. Had I NO respect I would still be using the 'J' word Old Son. So lecture me not! I do, and will continue to, despise what the damage SNP are doing to the United Kingdom and the way they are trying to do that damage. And yes if someone supports that damage then I will despise them too. But you also misrepresent that support. In May the SNP failed to get a majority. Once again they are a minority Government. You say 'around 46% of all Scots who voted' support the SNP. clever. 46% of the 55% who voted support the SNP. So that is about 25% of 'all Scots' support the SNP then agreed? And many of those will disappear when it is Scots who have to fund the SNP's £15 Bn deficit we English are currently funding. It is not racist or anti-Scottish or whatever to say to people in a part United Kingdom 'think again and wise up'. I say exactly the same to Labour supporters in Suffolk! But hey its your call. Enjoy. | |||
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" I have made many posts about my respect for and love of Scotland and the Scots and my lifelong Unionist beliefs. Sadly some of my military style endearments are now classed as racist by some and so that has been stopped out of respect. Had I NO respect I would still be using the 'J' word Old Son. So lecture me not! " True; you have indeed stopped using the J word and it is appreciated. I myself working offshore meet people from all locations in UK and all have a mixed view on various parties, I cannot separate them out and call them foolish because they support a party I do not agree on, most are genuinely good friends regardless of which party they support. | |||
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