FabSwingers.com forum: Flexcit for Brexit

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Anyone else read this or at least read the summary?

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London

Not read all of it, but it seems to advocate the 'Norway option' as the best way forward. Which involves still paying into the EU and accepting free movement of people, but with no say on EU law. Not sure that will be too popular with Brexiters.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Not read all of it, but it seems to advocate the 'Norway option' as the best way forward. Which involves still paying into the EU and accepting free movement of people, but with no say on EU law. Not sure that will be too popular with Brexiters. "

it wont happen.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

The problem we have is that the Brexit campaign of misinformation was spearheaded by the assurance (read "hope") that the UK would get a good trade deal with the EU and it would be without payment and without the need to accept free movement - because they need us more than we need them.

The reality was never going to be like that and the U.K. will not be committing economic suicide by leaving the single market and putting at risk almost 50% of our exports.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Or the remainers! Sounds like the worst of all world's!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The reality was never going to be like that and the U.K. will not be committing economic suicide by leaving the single market and putting at risk almost 50% of our exports."

You quietly forget the fact that we are a huge economy, we run a £61 Bn Nett trade deficit with the EU (actually £77 Bn in goods) and we are the EU's biggest internal export market. We are Germany's biggest car market. Whatever damage they wish to inflict on us (and it seems the EU Elite wish to do that) the individual countries of the EU will suffer more. Just remember the EU itself buys and sells nothing. It just instructs those countries that do how to do it ...

In the end it is the countries that trade and it will be the countries that decide what is best for themselves. And what is best is more trade not less.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful. "

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

The reality was never going to be like that and the U.K. will not be committing economic suicide by leaving the single market and putting at risk almost 50% of our exports.

In the end it is the countries that trade and it will be the countries that decide what is best for themselves. And what is best is more trade not less.

The problem is that you think like an Englander who never wanted to be a part of the EU. You need to think like a European. Countries in the EU will not unilaterally do what they want to just because Englanders think that is what they should do. If that were the case, the Greeks would have gone a couple of years ago when they had the chance.

Better that we all start to judge others by their standards, rather than our own.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The reality was never going to be like that and the U.K. will not be committing economic suicide by leaving the single market and putting at risk almost 50% of our exports.

In the end it is the countries that trade and it will be the countries that decide what is best for themselves. And what is best is more trade not less.

Better that we all start to judge others by their standards, rather than our own. "

So what you are saying then is that the UK has to change our ways to suit the rest of the EU? And become just like everyone else ? Become more Belgian French and German? So that we can fit into the norm as they see it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" The problem is that you think like an Englander who never wanted to be a part of the EU."

You forgot the 'Little' bit but you are still wrong. I think like a British person because I am British.

" You need to think like a European."

Why?

" Countries in the EU will not unilaterally do what they want to just because Englanders think that is what they should do."

I think you meant 'do what we want'? You confuse me with someone who gives a rats whatsit how or what they think. I never have. I am just saying that it is the individual countries of the EU that actually do the trading. Its not the EU. And the individual countries like Germany stand to lose a huge market for their expensive goods if the EU are allowed to be stupid. Its their call now. And please stop confusing 'Europe' with the EU.

" Better that we all start to judge others by their standards, rather than our own."

I judge people by their actions and I will use my standards. Its why I voted 'Leave'. The EU's actions in the last 20 years has been frankly appalling...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" So what you are saying then is that the UK has to change our ways to suit the rest of the EU? And become just like everyone else ? Become more Belgian French and German? So that we can fit into the norm as they see it? "

You just described the EU project perfectly ...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You just described the EU project perfectly ..."

I don't mind being a bit more German. French - no.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You just described the EU project perfectly ...

I don't mind being a bit more German. French - no. "

Cue the Golden Oldie:

"Fancy some English in you?"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

or with the Eu isntitutions lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The reality was never going to be like that and the U.K. will not be committing economic suicide by leaving the single market and putting at risk almost 50% of our exports.

In the end it is the countries that trade and it will be the countries that decide what is best for themselves. And what is best is more trade not less.

aahahah oh yes you are the most importabt economy of alll Eu lol how can all other countries survive without you? lol

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

The reality was never going to be like that and the U.K. will not be committing economic suicide by leaving the single market and putting at risk almost 50% of our exports.

In the end it is the countries that trade and it will be the countries that decide what is best for themselves. And what is best is more trade not less.

You live in an econmic fantasy land. Ken Clarke would describe you as "one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics, who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside the single market."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

aaahahh you voted out. get out! lol and u still need to beg for special contitions? lol

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful. "

Surely free movement of people is worse than free movement of labour?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" The problem is that you think like an Englander who never wanted to be a part of the EU.

You forgot the 'Little' bit but you are still wrong. I think like a British person because I am British.

You need to think like a European.

Why?

Countries in the EU will not unilaterally do what they want to just because Englanders think that is what they should do.

Better that we all start to judge others by their standards, rather than our own.

I judge people by their actions and I will use my standards. Its why I voted 'Leave'. The EU's actions in the last 20 years has been frankly appalling..."

jesus do you really think the market would be lost? where do you live? it will cost more to buy that's all.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

Free movement of labour means you can come here to work, or to look for work for up to six months. If we changed that to free movement of people, they they could stay indefinitely whilst being economically inactive. That is a TERRIBLE idea!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Surely free movement of people is worse than free movement of labour?

don't worry, man. the are going to recreate the gloriuos commonwealth : India Australia and Canada are really lokking forward to trade with the remains of UK now that is uk and not anymore the gate to Eu market lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

" The problem is that you think like an Englander who never wanted to be a part of the EU.

You forgot the 'Little' bit but you are still wrong. I think like a British person because I am British.

You need to think like a European.

Why?

Countries in the EU will not unilaterally do what they want to just because Englanders think that is what they should do.

Better that we all start to judge others by their standards, rather than our own.

I judge people by their actions and I will use my standards. Its why I voted 'Leave'. The EU's actions in the last 20 years has been frankly appalling..."

No one was confusing the EU and Europe so why say that?

You don't want to think like them? If you go into a negotiation with no idea how the other side think, or what they want to acheive or what is important to them, they are are extremely unlikely to achieve your aims.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out"

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence."

What don't you get there? Explain

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain"

If we free movement of PEOPLE rather than LABOUR, a Polish state pensioner could move here. Poland would stop paying the state pension, and Britain would start paying the state pension and pension credit. The pension credit would be a passporting benefit for housing benefit and council tax benefit. They may need care from the local authority, even though they will never have paid a penny in council tax. They will be using the NHS, even though they never worked here, and never paid any national insurance contributions. They would be high on the list for social housing due to their age and frailty making them vulnerable, therefore increasing the demand on housing, benefits, NHS, local authorities etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

rubbish. To move here they would have to be self supporting and would recieve the pension they had paid into from whatever country. They would also need to be covered by health insurance or use the system as it is now, where the NHS claims back the money from the health service from where they came.

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The reality was never going to be like that and the U.K. will not be committing economic suicide by leaving the single market and putting at risk almost 50% of our exports.

In the end it is the countries that trade and it will be the countries that decide what is best for themselves. And what is best is more trade not less.

You live in an econmic fantasy land. Ken Clarke would describe you as "one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics, who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside the single market." "

Thank your calling me a lunatic and I am sure we all find that funny but care to provide any of those things called FACTS? You know if I am a lunatic talking bollox then come up with factual replies. Its really simple.

Now where did I put my medication .. woop woop ..

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?"

I think you are talking about the free movement of Goal Posts now!

With free movement of Labour there is no need to be self supporting, they just come over. EU citizens coming to the UK don’t get benefits from their home countries, they get them from us.

EHIC (if we are even still a part of the system after Brexit) is mainly for holidays, rather than living. The following is from the NHS website.

"If you are moving abroad on a permanent basis...most people will no longer be entitled to use your UK-issued European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to access healthcare abroad.

In most cases you’ll have to register with the relevant authorities abroad. Once you are registered to work and make National Insurance contributions, you'll be entitled to state-run healthcare on the same basis as a national of that country” Well obviously pensioners would not be working and therefore not making any NI contributions!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?

I think you are talking about the free movement of Goal Posts now!

With free movement of Labour there is no need to be self supporting, they just come over. EU citizens coming to the UK don’t get benefits from their home countries, they get them from us.

EHIC (if we are even still a part of the system after Brexit) is mainly for holidays, rather than living. The following is from the NHS website.

"If you are moving abroad on a permanent basis...most people will no longer be entitled to use your UK-issued European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to access healthcare abroad.

I know all that, I've been there and done it.

You moved the goalposts, we were talking about pensioners and people who emigrate when they retire!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is all conjecture until negotiations get started.

No one can predict the future.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?

I think you are talking about the free movement of Goal Posts now!

With free movement of Labour there is no need to be self supporting, they just come over. EU citizens coming to the UK don’t get benefits from their home countries, they get them from us.

EHIC (if we are even still a part of the system after Brexit) is mainly for holidays, rather than living. The following is from the NHS website.

"If you are moving abroad on a permanent basis...most people will no longer be entitled to use your UK-issued European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to access healthcare abroad.

I know all that, I've been there and done it.

You moved the goalposts, we were talking about pensioners and people who emigrate when they retire!!"

What goal posts did I move? We were talking about, and still are talking about pensioners.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts"

So they get to use our NHS, without ever having paid a single National Insurance contribution, remind me how that is good for the UK again?

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

"And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts"

To be accurate;

If you move to another EU country to work; you sign up and pay their version of NI or " Social Contribution".

If you are sent abroad to work by your UK company, and still paid by the YK company, then you pay UK NIvand tax, and the UK send a letter to your " host" country to tell them that the UK will reimburse the host country for your healthcare .

If you are drawing UK state pension, the UK likewise write to your host country to tell them that the UK will reimburse them for your healthcare.

It's a reciprocal arrangement between all EU countries ( and between several non- EU countries, too).

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

"And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts

So they get to use our NHS, without ever having paid a single National Insurance contribution, remind me how that is good for the UK again?"

Yes, but their country pays the UK for their healthcare costs incurred by them to the NHS.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?"

A drain. There is significant discord in the Costa del Sol amongst Spanish people who see ageing Brit retirees as an unacceptable drain on their health service and complain that young Spanish who go to the UK by comparison are young and contribute to the economy and not drain resources.

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?

Because the locals don't understand that the health costs of the Brits are paid for by the UK.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts

To be accurate;

If you move to another EU country to work; you sign up and pay their version of NI or " Social Contribution".

If you are drawing UK state pension, the UK likewise write to your host country to tell them that the UK will reimburse them for your healthcare.

It's a reciprocal arrangement between all EU countries ( and between several non- EU countries, too)."

But retired people don’t WORK! So they wouldn’t be paying any NI in this country would they? And as they are not working, they won’t have been sent here by a company will they?

Who’s to say that this agreement will remain when we leave the EU?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?

Because the locals don't understand that the health costs of the Brits are paid for by the UK."

Because the general public are too stupid to understand how the EU works?! I hope they don’t ever get a vote on the EU then!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?

Because the locals don't understand that the health costs of the Brits are paid for by the UK.

Because the general public are too stupid to understand how the EU works?! I hope they don’t ever get a vote on the EU then!

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

Actually that not necessarily true since IQ is supposed to be internationally comparable. Therefore, it is possible that the low IQ people could cluster together rather than being evenly spread between the geographical boundaries of the world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

Except that MENSA do measure British IQ and use a 100 average.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

I still don’t see that that has to do with Renard Argente saying that Spanish people don’t know how the EU works. Are we supposed to believe that they don’t, but we do?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Because the general public are too stupid to understand how the EU works?! I hope they don’t ever get a vote on the EU then!

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

Do people really need to know their IQ???

I don't know mine and don't bloody care, I just go by my earnings and think, hey, im doing bloody well

who gives a flying fuck about IQ

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

I still don’t see that that has to do with Renard Argente saying that Spanish people don’t know how the EU works. Are we supposed to believe that they don’t, but we do?"

It was part of the issue that the EU is to a certain degree rather shrouded from anyone's inspection. By definition, an unaccountable organisation (that is, one whose accounts had not been passed for a very long time, if ever) cannot be a trusted and transparent organisation.

"Oi, how did you spend my money."

"Not telling."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Because the general public are too stupid to understand how the EU works?! I hope they don’t ever get a vote on the EU then!

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

Do people really need to know their IQ???

I don't know mine and don't bloody care, I just go by my earnings and think, hey, im doing bloody well

who gives a flying fuck about IQ"

Well that's why IQ was invented!!!

To help smart people feel good about not being able to convert their intellect into wealth.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Because the general public are too stupid to understand how the EU works?! I hope they don’t ever get a vote on the EU then!

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

Do people really need to know their IQ???

I don't know mine and don't bloody care, I just go by my earnings and think, hey, im doing bloody well

who gives a flying fuck about IQ"

Because the word "stupid" was used. Stupidity is usually defined by lack of intelligence.

It seems common for the Remainers to invoke a call to stupidity and to racism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Because the general public are too stupid to understand how the EU works?! I hope they don’t ever get a vote on the EU then!

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

Do people really need to know their IQ???

I don't know mine and don't bloody care, I just go by my earnings and think, hey, im doing bloody well

who gives a flying fuck about IQ

Because the word "stupid" was used. Stupidity is usually defined by lack of intelligence.

It seems common for the Remainers to invoke a call to stupidity and to racism."

Stupid is as stupid does

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Because the general public are too stupid to understand how the EU works?! I hope they don’t ever get a vote on the EU then!

We are members of the general public. You are members of the general public. The IQ of the average member of the public by definition is 100.

Yes, there are people with below average IQ. Yes, there are people with above average IQ.

Do people really need to know their IQ???

I don't know mine and don't bloody care, I just go by my earnings and think, hey, im doing bloody well

who gives a flying fuck about IQ

Well that's why IQ was invented!!!

To help smart people feel good about not being able to convert their intellect into wealth."

Personally, I will stick with wealth, it works for me

everyone else can have their IQ lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)"

Well, I should hope so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

Well, I should hope so."

Agreed, but there appears to be a belief amongst some people that nothing is going to happen and the democratic process will be ignored.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)"

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here."

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here."

Perhaps a long overdue review of nurse training is required?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid."

Yes we need nurses. Yes they get paid. But I think that many in Europe now see us as closed minded, xenophobic racists. The rise in hate crimes, as well as whatever hoops we will make immigrants jump through (like a points based immigration system) will make working in other EU countries (that also need nurses and also pay them) look more attractive.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

Yeah we'll wait and see. I work in Europe and I have not heard any expressions of xenophobia or racism and I do not believe that is what people think, mostly because it isn't true, we are not xenophobic or racist, just independent that's all.

Closed minds come from both sides of the debate by the way.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

I don't see how that works, we currently lose shit loads of nurses, doctors and everybody in between to Australia that have a points based immigration system... By the way they also have lots of nurses from Asia!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts

To be accurate;

If you move to another EU country to work; you sign up and pay their version of NI or " Social Contribution".

If you are drawing UK state pension, the UK likewise write to your host country to tell them that the UK will reimburse them for your healthcare.

It's a reciprocal arrangement between all EU countries ( and between several non- EU countries, too).

But retired people don’t WORK! So they wouldn’t be paying any NI in this country would they? And as they are not working, they won’t have been sent here by a company will they?

Who’s to say that this agreement will remain when we leave the EU?"

for goodness sake!! Retired people have paid NI all their lives in whichever country they have worked in and healthcare costs are claimed back by the country they retire to from that country they worked/paid NI in. What is it you don't get??

and as the poster above you said, this arrangement already applies to some countries outside of the EU so why would it change?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them."

Say you are an Italian nurse, do you want to apply for a visa through a points based immigration system, or do you want to go and work in France or Germany where you can just turn up because its another EU country that has free movement of people? Any points based system is a barrier when compared to free movement.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

no they don't. That is just a twisted slur that comes from mard arse losers

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before."

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?"

well guys i tell u the news: u need italian nurses because u do not have enough people who want to do it in uk. the only reason they come in uk is the language.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

well guys i tell u the news: u need italian nurses because u do not have enough people who want to do it in uk. the only reason they come in uk is the language. "

Logic, as usual, Dr Mario. They want to come here because we speak ... erm ... Italian?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

well guys i tell u the news: u need italian nurses because u do not have enough people who want to do it in uk. the only reason they come in uk is the language.

Logic, as usual, Dr Mario. They want to come here because we speak ... erm ... Italian?"

u are not very smart, are u? surely not lol. Well i tell you a secret. There is a world out there! in this magic world there are schools and in those schools almost 100 % of the students learn English as a foreign language. I know that u Brits are not very keen on learning foreign languages but make the effort and imagine it. Now if you know some English zero French and zero German where would you go?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?"

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OK so an Italian Nurse looking to move to the UK has to fill in a visa if that is what the Government decides although there are many in-work ways to control things. Presumably she has decided she actually wants to move here so the UK is a preference? But apparently the £ / Euro exchange rate will put her and others off.

Really?

Now the Euro today is slightly higher than it was in 2012, higher than it was in 2013, the same as in 2014 and lower than it was in 2015. It is higher today (1.1726) than it was a year ago (1.1614) and I didn't see too many migrants put off coming here. And as someone said within the UK a pound buys whatever a pound buys.

But don't believe me. Here is a quote:

"The British pound has advanced against the Euro in strong fashion ahead of the weekend, in tandem with a pick-up in investor sentiment."

An investor sentiment that has seen all FTSE boards showing climbs at 45 degrees. Even the Euro Bourses are improving behind us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/overview/

This isn't to say we are out of troubled waters but the markets are seeing reasons to be confident.

Of course what all the EU Remainers forget is that this wonderful 'Single Market' hurts our economy because because we run a huge trade deficit within the EU:

"The UK economy remains one that is heavily reliant on imports, as confirmed by the latest trade data from the ONS. This suggests that the Pound will likely struggle owing to the country’s demand for foreign exchange."

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eur/5166-euro-to-pound-sterling-exchange-rate-343423

Here is a good read:

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/5151-british-pound-don-t-panic

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

well guys i tell u the news: u need italian nurses because u do not have enough people who want to do it in uk. the only reason they come in uk is the language.

Logic, as usual, Dr Mario. They want to come here because we speak ... erm ... Italian?

Well, I learned French and German.

If I was Italian, I would probably have done so, too.

All in all? I am more comfortable in my native language, though I do admire those able to make the leap.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts

To be accurate;

If you move to another EU country to work; you sign up and pay their version of NI or " Social Contribution".

If you are drawing UK state pension, the UK likewise write to your host country to tell them that the UK will reimburse them for your healthcare.

It's a reciprocal arrangement between all EU countries ( and between several non- EU countries, too).

But retired people don’t WORK! So they wouldn’t be paying any NI in this country would they? And as they are not working, they won’t have been sent here by a company will they?

Who’s to say that this agreement will remain when we leave the EU?

and as the poster above you said, this arrangement already applies to some countries outside of the EU so why would it change?"

We are leaving the EU, I would think that there would be at least the possibility of there being some change to our existing agreements. But for arguments sake, lets put to one side the NHS discussion.

The retiree wont have paid any council tax to the local authority. So why should the other council tax payers then have to fund the social care that at least some of them are going to need?

Going back to things such as state pensions, pension credit, attendance allowance etc. They won't have paid any NI contributions to our country, so why should we fund them while their country of orginal gets a lifetime of NI, without having to pay for their pension?

Housing, if we are allowing even more EU citizens the right to come to the UK, that is just going to put more pressure on our housing market. As mentioned, this is likely to be especially evident in the social housing market, supported accommodation and warden controlled accommodation. So again, why would we want people from other countries, who haven't contributed anything to the UK, to get these scarse resources when there is already high demand from UK citizens?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts

To be accurate;

If you move to another EU country to work; you sign up and pay their version of NI or " Social Contribution".

If you are drawing UK state pension, the UK likewise write to your host country to tell them that the UK will reimburse them for your healthcare.

It's a reciprocal arrangement between all EU countries ( and between several non- EU countries, too).

But retired people don’t WORK! So they wouldn’t be paying any NI in this country would they? And as they are not working, they won’t have been sent here by a company will they?

Who’s to say that this agreement will remain when we leave the EU?

and as the poster above you said, this arrangement already applies to some countries outside of the EU so why would it change?

The retiree wont have paid any council tax to the local authority. So why should the other council tax payers then have to fund the social care that at least some of them are going to need?

All of that already happens.

We could make it different.

Who knows until the negotiations are done?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

I can't really understand why immigration was such an important issue during the campaign, and the primary reason why a lot of people voted to leave, and yet on here Leave voters are arguing for MORE immigration! I don't think that will be a winner for many voters.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"I can't really understand why immigration was such an important issue during the campaign, and the primary reason why a lot of people voted to leave, and yet on here Leave voters are arguing for MORE immigration! I don't think that will be a winner for many voters. "

Maybe due to the rise in hate crimes in the UK since the brexit campaign ..the immigration issue is becoming less palatable.so brexiters now try and distance themselves from the issue

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier."
it's very different for a non uk citizen when applying for a visa or permit to work if you think it's just about filling in a form you're very mistaken I lived here worked in the armed forces and when I applied for a visa it's not just a form you have an exam plus the former which is more like a book then have your finger prints taken and then wait the whole process takes about 6 months and it is not cheap cost me 1500 pounds ...it is a barrier whether you admit or not

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier. it's very different for a non uk citizen when applying for a visa or permit to work if you think it's just about filling in a form you're very mistaken I lived here worked in the armed forces and when I applied for a visa it's not just a form you have an exam plus the former which is more like a book then have your finger prints taken and then wait the whole process takes about 6 months and it is not cheap cost me 1500 pounds ...it is a barrier whether you admit or not "

For goodness sake, do you think someone wanting to work for the NHS from another country does not have to fill in a form?

I bloody hope so.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea. No one has put a single reason as to why it is a good idea.

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sorry that isn't quite true at all. I can't see anyone looking for higher immigration at all. What we in Vote Leave were saying consistently was: a)We need to assess what population our infrastructure and public services can sustain, b) make the necessary funding for that level available, c) control the numbers coming in so as to not exceed that assessment and d) within those numbers make sure we bring the best and most useful people for our economy from a global pool not distorted by the EU open door.

No one here has said we need higher migration as far as I know and I haven't. We need the RIGHT people not the VOLUME of people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did. "

May I respectfully disagree?

You cannot categorise Brexiters, just as you cannot categorise Remainers. Everyone had their priorities.

That is the problem with debates on the issue. It is all "racist" versus "European"'stuff.

It is not like that at all.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

No one here has said we need higher migration as far as I know and I haven't. We need the RIGHT people not the VOLUME of people."

Have you even read the thread? At the moment there is free movement of LABOUR. By right, all the workers in the EU could come to the UK tomorrow. They have that right. Of course they wouldn't all find jobs, so after 6 months the vast majority would have to go home because they wouldn't be exercising a treaty right.

What was suggested further up the thread was that we change to the free movement of PEOPLE. If we did that, by right, every single person in the would be able to move here and we wouldn't be able to make them leave, simply by living here they would be exercising a treaty right.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did.

May I respectfully disagree?

You cannot categorise Brexiters, just as you cannot categorise Remainers. Everyone had their priorities.

That is the problem with debates on the issue. It is all "racist" versus "European"'stuff.

It is not like that at all. "

Really that's not the way its portrayed on here by a select few ..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea. "

I don't wish to upset you but the ‘four freedoms’ of the European Union are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders. Note 'people' not 'Labour'. I actually made that mistake and was rightly corrected. This Freedom also covers the workers family and pension and other rights which is another issue entirely.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

One good thing about Scotland, its far too cold for most

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did.

May I respectfully disagree?

You cannot categorise Brexiters, just as you cannot categorise Remainers. Everyone had their priorities.

That is the problem with debates on the issue. It is all "racist" versus "European"'stuff.

It is not like that at all. "

There are broad trends and concerns on both side that can indeed be categorised. The panorama program the other day had virtually every single person saying immigration was important to them. Nigel Farage published a giant poster of a line of refugees. From the Vote Leave website "immigration will continue out of control putting public services like the NHS under strain"

So to say that immigration wasn't a priority for anyone is extremely disingenuous.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" So to say that immigration wasn't a priority for anyone is extremely disingenuous. "

And it is equally disingenuous to say every Brexiter voted Leave solely because of immigration. But that is how we are portrayed and in quite disgusting terms as well....

I can tell you from having tramped hundreds of streets and run stalls and leafleting thousands of houses that immigration was important but so was Sovereignty and Political Union and other factors.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did.

May I respectfully disagree?

You cannot categorise Brexiters, just as you cannot categorise Remainers. Everyone had their priorities.

That is the problem with debates on the issue. It is all "racist" versus "European"'stuff.

It is not like that at all.

So to say that immigration wasn't a priority for anyone is extremely disingenuous."

The reason that is not disengenous is that it was not even a factor in why I voted to leave - or why my friends voted to leave. You are making assumptions that may or may not be justified.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union"

Nope, it's workers:

"Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice."

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK so an Italian Nurse looking to move to the UK has to fill in a visa if that is what the Government decides although there are many in-work ways to control things. Presumably she has decided she actually wants to move here so the UK is a preference? But apparently the £ / Euro exchange rate will put her and others off.

Really?

Perhaps he or she reads the articles that you quoted and sees that they say:

"Goldman Sachs now forecast the EUR/GBP at 0.9 in three months, 0.86 in six months and 0.80 in twelve months.

Deutsche bank's forecasts for GBP/USD and EUR/GBP are at 1.15 and 90 pence by the end of this year respectively".

That's a 23% pay cut to come for him/her in euro terms (1.172 euro/£ at close today to 90 cents/£) in the next year.

Then again doesn't that devaluation of the pound also mean we get increased inflation? Our imports will cost more won't they? 23% more if paid in euros? Or 18% more for dollar based imports with the pound falling from a close of $1.295 to the predicted $1.15

None of that sounds very good for the nurse, who is relatively low paid and may think it's better elsewhere where a euro is a euro?

Then again, since pensioners have come up in this thread, how are they going to feel about savings rates reducing and inflation increasing? A little bit less happy about voting for just that I'd guess

In case your good read about interest rate prospects gets chalked off by admin for being a disallowed link, they can google "poundsterlinglive How British Pound Weakness Against Euro and Dollar Will Help the Economy Navigate Brexit"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457"

And when we exit that may well be no longer the case. I don't know yet whether that will be better or worse.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

Lets hope we can keep our freedom post brexit ..

Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice."

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did.

May I respectfully disagree?

You cannot categorise Brexiters, just as you cannot categorise Remainers. Everyone had their priorities.

That is the problem with debates on the issue. It is all "racist" versus "European"'stuff.

It is not like that at all.

So to say that immigration wasn't a priority for anyone is extremely disingenuous.

The reason that is not disengenous is that it was not even a factor in why I voted to leave - or why my friends voted to leave. You are making assumptions that may or may not be justified."

But you and your friends weren't the only people who voted! I didn't say that everyone voted because of immigration. I said "a lot of people".

You say that I am making assumptions when I have heard people say thats why they voted to leave, seen others on TV and in the media, and as I quoted above it formed part of the offical as well as the unofficial campaign.

So just to make it clear. I am not saying, and have never said, that YOU voted to leave because of immigration.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

And when we exit that may well be no longer the case. I don't know yet whether that will be better or worse."

I know that! But silverfoxa and cunninglicker said that when we leave, we should change from the free movement of workers (or labour as I have called it) to the free movement of people.

I think that that is a bad idea.

Hants-smiles, if you had to chose between a points based immigration system with a set limit of numbers of people allowed in, or, free movement of workers (labour) as we currently have, or free movement of people as suggested by silverfoxa and cunninglicker, which do You think would be best for the UK?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457"

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

2. Such freedom of movement shall entail the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality between workers of the Member States as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(c) to stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did.

May I respectfully disagree?

You cannot categorise Brexiters, just as you cannot categorise Remainers. Everyone had their priorities.

That is the problem with debates on the issue. It is all "racist" versus "European"'stuff.

It is not like that at all.

So to say that immigration wasn't a priority for anyone is extremely disingenuous.

The reason that is not disengenous is that it was not even a factor in why I voted to leave - or why my friends voted to leave. You are making assumptions that may or may not be justified.

But you and your friends weren't the only people who voted! I didn't say that everyone voted because of immigration. I said "a lot of people".

So just to make it clear. I am not saying, and have never said, that YOU voted to leave because of immigration. "

No but you are assuming that many did.

You may be right. Who knows?

We did not get to tick a box.

Perhaps - just perhaps - and I am not implying anything - you view a Brexiter as a UKIP supporter or someone with some ulterior motive?

I voted out not to curb immigration. I thought it was the best choice for the future. All in all. I knew it would bring short term economic downturn.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Let me try the 'Open Society' for the explanation:

"Freedom of movement allows citizens of the European Union (EU) to move to, live in, and in certain circumstances access the welfare system of the EU country to which they have moved. Freedom of movement is one of the founding principles of the EU. It has been in operation since the creation of the European Economic Community and is primarily designed to support the economies of EU countries by providing a mobile work force.

Who can use freedom of movement?

Originally, the EU gave free movement rights only to people who moved to another member state to seek work there or become self-employed. Once an individual is in employment and satisfies certain conditions, he or she has the same rights as nationals of that country to access benefits such as health care, education, and incapacity benefit. Workers and self-employed EU citizens may also bring their family members, who have access to the same benefits as nationals of the host country.

Free movement rights have been extended to other categories of EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed. However, these citizens have fewer rights because they are not contributing in the same way to the host country’s economy."

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

So can we agree on 'citizens'? And with respect you are not a 'worker' unless you are 'working'. And given anyone in the EU can come here and look for work then they are not, surely, 'workers'? They are 'people' or as above 'citizens'...

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did.

May I respectfully disagree?

You cannot categorise Brexiters, just as you cannot categorise Remainers. Everyone had their priorities.

That is the problem with debates on the issue. It is all "racist" versus "European"'stuff.

It is not like that at all.

So to say that immigration wasn't a priority for anyone is extremely disingenuous.

The reason that is not disengenous is that it was not even a factor in why I voted to leave - or why my friends voted to leave. You are making assumptions that may or may not be justified.

But you and your friends weren't the only people who voted! I didn't say that everyone voted because of immigration. I said "a lot of people".

So just to make it clear. I am not saying, and have never said, that YOU voted to leave because of immigration.

No but you are assuming that many did.

You may be right. Who knows?

We did not get to tick a box.

Perhaps - just perhaps - and I am not implying anything - you view a Brexiter as a UKIP supporter or someone with some ulterior motive?

I voted out not to curb immigration. I thought it was the best choice for the future. All in all. I knew it would bring short term economic downturn."

Perhaps just perhaps I do indeed believe that at least SOME UKIP voters voted for Brexit. I know that you will see that as a massive assumption on my part, but I'm going to live dangerously and think that at least some UKIP supporters voted to Leave. But you see thats not the same as classifying all of the people who voted for Brexit as UKIP supporters is it?

As for ulterior motives, again I am going to make a massive assumption here, and bravely suggest that most people who voted to Leave did so because they wanted the UK to leave the EU. I hope thats not too controversial.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your assumption is that immigration was the deciding factor.

It wasn't for me and it probably wasn't for many.

I think that Brexiters on here would argue the sky was green if a Remainer said it was blue!

I never said that You voted on the basis of immigration, I said that many did.

May I respectfully disagree?

You cannot categorise Brexiters, just as you cannot categorise Remainers. Everyone had their priorities.

That is the problem with debates on the issue. It is all "racist" versus "European"'stuff.

It is not like that at all.

So to say that immigration wasn't a priority for anyone is extremely disingenuous.

The reason that is not disengenous is that it was not even a factor in why I voted to leave - or why my friends voted to leave. You are making assumptions that may or may not be justified.

But you and your friends weren't the only people who voted! I didn't say that everyone voted because of immigration. I said "a lot of people".

So just to make it clear. I am not saying, and have never said, that YOU voted to leave because of immigration.

No but you are assuming that many did.

You may be right. Who knows?

We did not get to tick a box.

Perhaps - just perhaps - and I am not implying anything - you view a Brexiter as a UKIP supporter or someone with some ulterior motive?

I voted out not to curb immigration. I thought it was the best choice for the future. All in all. I knew it would bring short term economic downturn.

Not contervisial at all.

I have always viewed UKIP as a blight. Though others may think differently.

Funnily enough, those who voted out probably had had a multitude of reasons for doing so, just as those who voted in did.

It wasn't an easy decision for me. In the end, I decided that I did not want to be part of a corrupt unaccountable organisation but I do know exiting will cause pain.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service."

I like hundreds of thousands of UK citizens have used and enjoyed having this right ..i live in hope the tory led uk government will negotiate a Norway type deal should we ever become a non EU member ..so we can retain our freedoms ..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

People are still going on about this

Time to move on peeps.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before."
.

No there'd be pretty much the same if you lived in Britain spending your money on British stuff.

Now if you wanted to send three quarters of your money back to Poland/Romania/Slovakia/Romania or wherever... Yes you'll be on a loser, that's how it works!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?"

Which were?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before..

No there'd be pretty much the same if you lived in Britain spending your money on British stuff.

Now if you wanted to send three quarters of your money back to Poland/Romania/Slovakia/Romania or wherever... Yes you'll be on a loser, that's how it works!"

We'd all be losers - its an inflation tax on everything that's imported. Pensioners and people living off savings incomes will be losers as there savings are inflated away. People who want to go outside this country for any purpose will lose because their pounds will buy less.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before..

No there'd be pretty much the same if you lived in Britain spending your money on British stuff.

Now if you wanted to send three quarters of your money back to Poland/Romania/Slovakia/Romania or wherever... Yes you'll be on a loser, that's how it works!

No shit Sherlock, so your answer is Greece?.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't have a 10 billon trade deficit and just rely on foreign investment, you can't say what we need to do is sell more and maintain your foreign holidays, you can't ignore 10% of the population because there dick's and think they won't come back to bite you on your arse sooner or later...

Tell you what let's get back to basics instead of arguing.

We've mismanaged the economy for forty years? .... Anybody that's under some crazy notion that the UK economy was just dandy pre brexit is deluded and should be in a crazy institution... In the cell next to Osbourne!!.

Now we both no immigration pays, however unlike countries like Australia and Canada and the US and even Germany... We were never going to compete long term... It's a space thing, they've got more than us just like Switzerland ain't gonna take in loads or Monaco or Lichtenstein or Hong Kong or Singapore..., small countries have to do something different...

Is it going to be painful... Probably!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before..

No there'd be pretty much the same if you lived in Britain spending your money on British stuff.

Now if you wanted to send three quarters of your money back to Poland/Romania/Slovakia/Romania or wherever... Yes you'll be on a loser, that's how it works!

No shit Sherlock, so your answer is Greece?.

Tell you what let's get back to basics instead of arguing.

Is it going to be painful... Probably!"

No Watson, just as I didn't say your answer is the USSR, I didn't say any of that stuff about Greece or cake or immigration or your space programme the twenty seven other diversions you came up with. What I said was it wasn't just foreigners who wanted to remit money home that will suffer from this - though I don't see why we should resent them spending the money they've earned in whatever way they want - it'll be the rest of us too who suffer.

As far as the Italian nurse, who was the topic of discussion, is concerned - it could be better for him/her to nurse elsewhere. That may apply to an Australian nurse, a Canadian nurse, an Indian nurse too - they'd have to consider that what their money buys could be a lot less in a year's time than it does now.

An 18% to 30% reduction in the 'value' of sterling might help our exporters (who knows?) it definitely will hurt everyone else who buys things from apples to audis to aspirin.

It's the 'Brexit tax', innit? We didn't need to add that extra layer of economic shit on the country, and we certainly didn't need it to help fix the economy if it's been mismanaged. Unless you believe a dose of stagflation will help.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

Which were?"

The freedom to make our own laws and regulations, set our own taxes and terms of trade, to democratically elect the people we choose to govern us etc etc.

The freedom to live and work in other countries which existed long before the EU it was just more regulated and controlled, which is the way it should be. This supposed free movement of workers con benefits nobody other than the rich and big business to provide them with cheap available labour and allow them to keep wages down, therefore taking away some freedoms of the poorest people. The EU has given us fewer freedoms, you were sold a lie and bought it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here."

But then there might be jobs for our own then? My friend has qualified as a nurse but is talking of emigrating to work in New Zealand as she seems to feel that there are no jobs here

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

But then there might be jobs for our own then? My friend has qualified as a nurse but is talking of emigrating to work in New Zealand as she seems to feel that there are no jobs here"

My sister is a nurse and has never had a problem. She moved her family from London to Leeds for work. Adverts for nursing degrees state 90% of nurses are offered jobs on qualification, so your friend is unlucky.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

But then there might be jobs for our own then? My friend has qualified as a nurse but is talking of emigrating to work in New Zealand as she seems to feel that there are no jobs here"

Well the report says that one in ten posts is currently unfilled, so there are plenty of positions going. When my friend qualified she had 3 different job offers to chose from. They were fighting over her, and that's someone fresh out of training and without any experience.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before..

No there'd be pretty much the same if you lived in Britain spending your money on British stuff.

Now if you wanted to send three quarters of your money back to Poland/Romania/Slovakia/Romania or wherever... Yes you'll be on a loser, that's how it works!

No shit Sherlock, so your answer is Greece?.

Tell you what let's get back to basics instead of arguing.

Is it going to be painful... Probably!

An 18% to 30% reduction in the 'value' of sterling might help our exporters (who knows?) it definitely will hurt everyone else who buys things from apples to audis to aspirin.

"
.

Greece is exactly the same as everybody else, that's my point, sure there smaller, but the problems the same.

Do you continually run your economy down with austerity trying to complete with your surplus neighbour.... Or do you take the awful tasting medicine which allows you to stop the outflow of money?.

For all Osbourne's bullshit about balanced budgets, everybody with half a brain new that was not going to happen without some major change!....

I don't deny there's a chance for stagflation or devaluation or austerity still,i just think that was guaranteed with the path we were on anyhow, just like a house price crash was inevitable, so we've nothing to lose.

I don't want a politican with answers anymore, frankly I've had enough of their answers over the last 40 years.... I'm willing to take a chance on the person whos posing the questions!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before..

No there'd be pretty much the same if you lived in Britain spending your money on British stuff.

Now if you wanted to send three quarters of your money back to Poland/Romania/Slovakia/Romania or wherever... Yes you'll be on a loser, that's how it works!

No shit Sherlock, so your answer is Greece?.

Tell you what let's get back to basics instead of arguing.

Is it going to be painful... Probably!

An 18% to 30% reduction in the 'value' of sterling might help our exporters (who knows?) it definitely will hurt everyone else who buys things from apples to audis to aspirin.

Greece is exactly the same as everybody else, that's my point, sure there smaller, but the problems the same.

Do you continually run your economy down with austerity trying to complete with your surplus neighbour.... Or do you take the awful tasting medicine which allows you to stop the outflow of money?.

For all Osbourne's bullshit about balanced budgets, everybody with half a brain new that was not going to happen without some major change!....

I don't want a politican with answers anymore, frankly I've had enough of their answers over the last 40 years.... I'm willing to take a chance on the person whos posing the questions! "

Out of all that rhetoric the only solution you offered was taking the awful tasting medicine that stops the outflow of money. How do you see that working? Which outflows are you going to stop and how? Are you advocating capital and exchange controls back to the good old days of the 1970s when we were restricted to taking £50 out of the country perhaps?

If so you'd better tell those brexit loving oaps here who may not realise they voted for that particular turkey. I doubt that the ten percent you refer to thought they were asking the question 'can we be taken back to the Middle Ages please?'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

Which were?

The freedom to make our own laws and regulations, set our own taxes and terms of trade, to democratically elect the people we choose to govern us etc etc.

All those foreign workers who come here for a better life are mistaken? They were all being conned by big business? The people from France, Germany, Sweden, Ireland, Spain, greece and Italy doing similar jobs to everyone else in my business for the same pay and conditions as anyone else would disagree. They tend to feel that the British public has been sold a huge lie by the brexit campaign. I think I'll take their combined experience of over a hundred working years the value of the Eu over your view based on 4 years experience any day.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

Which were?

The freedom to make our own laws and regulations, set our own taxes and terms of trade, to democratically elect the people we choose to govern us etc etc.

So what do you think gives them a better life here? And if they were really needed then what would have stopped them coming if we weren't in the EU?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

Which were?

The freedom to make our own laws and regulations, set our own taxes and terms of trade, to democratically elect the people we choose to govern us etc etc.

You seem to be very confused. When we are talking about freedoms, we are talking about rights. If I want to go and work in France, I have that right, no one can stop me. That is a right granted to me by treaty. I can work in any EU country.

If I want to work in the US, I dont have that right. I can apply for a visa, but I might be turned down, the US government can stop me if they dont want me to work there.

The right to go and work in all of the member states of the EU, did NOT exist before the EU, you had to apply for a visa. Why do you say that we had that right before the EU when we didn't?

Do we have the freedom to make our own laws? Yes. Housing and Planning Act 2016, Armed Forces Act 2016, Immigration Act 2016, Energy Act 2016, Armed Forces Act 2016 to name but a few from this year alone.

Do we already have the freedom to make our own regulations? Yes. The Air Navigation (Restrictions of Flying) (Jet Formation Display Team) (No.4) Regulations 2016, The Waste (Meaning of Recovery)(Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2016 to name just two tedious examples. Did you get a warm glow of democratic pride when they were added to the statue books?

Freedom to set our own taxes? Yes. Remember the wonderful if short lived Pasty Tax?

Democratically elected the people who govern us? Yep. Parish councillors, district councillors, county councillors, MPs, MEPs as well as Assembly members and MSPs depending on where you live in the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

Which were?

The freedom to make our own laws and regulations, set our own taxes and terms of trade, to democratically elect the people we choose to govern us etc etc.

If I want to work in the US, I dont have that right. I can apply for a visa, but I might be turned down, the US government can stop me if they dont want me to work there.

The right to go and work in all of the member states of the EU, did NOT exist before the EU, you had to apply for a visa. Why do you say that we had that right before the EU when we didn't?

Freedom to set our own taxes? Yes. Remember the wonderful if short lived Pasty Tax?

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" All those foreign workers who come here for a better life are mistaken? They were all being conned by big business? The people from France, Germany, Sweden, Ireland, Spain, greece and Italy doing similar jobs to everyone else in my business for the same pay and conditions as anyone else would disagree. They tend to feel that the British public has been sold a huge lie by the brexit campaign. I think I'll take their combined experience of over a hundred working years the value of the Eu over your view based on 4 years experience any day."

A hundred years experience of the EU? I hope you mean combined as the EU has only existed for 20 odd years. So you have 5 mates then?

You sort of forgot to mention the people from Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia in your selection. A slip I am sure and nothing more. But of course THAT is the real problem it is the sheer numbers. We are open to 500 million people. You know that wondrous 'Single Market' you brag about?

And while I am sure some German engineers at BAE Systems I know are earning well as are your 5 mates what about the hundreds of thousands of unskilled migrants that drive down the wages of working people in the UK?

The Bank of England said this was the case even though they supported 'Remain' saying for every 10% increase in migration wages were suppressed by 2%. And please don't give us the '10% of 2 million is a lot' story. It has become the millions it has BECAUSE of the rate of expansion from nothing just 12 years ago.

Lord Rose, the invisible multi- millionaire ex M & S boss and leader of 'Remain' said in front of a Parliamentary select Committee:

"If we leave the EU wages will rise. But that may not necessarily be a good thing"

THAT is the point Brexit were making. The big business mega rich owners are making profits out of low paid workers whose lives are being suppressed by zero hours contracts (yes that came form the EU) and a huge and unending availability of labour. A cheap labour force supported by UK Tax Credits that give more profits to big business. It is utter madness.

When we close the door to unending flows of people regardless of skills, we understand what human resources the UK needs in the long term, what infrastructure we need to support those people properly and then create a fair system for people from the global pool of skills (including any EU countries that may be left) to come here only then will the 'issue' of migration start to ebb away.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?"

But the 4 freedoms are rights! Would you like it if I voted to strip you of the right to live in Belfast or Cardiff or Edinburgh? Because you just voted to strip the right of 65 million people of the UK to live in Rome or Paris or Madrid.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" If I want to work in the US, I dont have that right. I can apply for a visa, but I might be turned down, the US government can stop me if they dont want me to work there. "

So your point is exactly? I have worked and holidayed there and it 'ain't no big deal'. But then they look after themselves don't they so why shouldn't we?

" The right to go and work in all of the member states of the EU, did NOT exist before the EU, you had to apply for a visa. Why do you say that we had that right before the EU when we didn't? "

Sorry. The freedom of Movement thing has been in all Treaties since the first Treaty of Rome. It was there when we signed up to join in '73. The difference then was we joined 8 other similar countries (in economic terms) and the movement was very small. Disenchantment came precisely WHEN the EU was formed because a) we were never asked about this political Union and b) suddenly it became 28 countries not 12 and c) most of the new countries were very much poorer than the rest of the EU. It is us who were misled and now we have said 'enough'.

" Do we have the freedom to make our own laws? Yes. Housing and Planning Act 2016, Armed Forces Act 2016, Immigration Act 2016, Energy Act 2016, Armed Forces Act 2016 to name but a few from this year alone."

Well yes of course we can enact our own laws and you give two fine examples with the military ones. That is not the point. We HAVE to enact EU Laws without question. And that is why some 60% of all our Laws, Regulations and Directives come from the EU regardless of whether they pass via Parliament. And you may want to revise that list because anything to do with energy and planning has EU Directives all over it. The fact we pass a law does not mean WE wanted it or WE started it or even that WE drafted it. That is the insidious way the EU works.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?

the right but not the bloody freedom!! Jeez

Tell me, when you've made this move to France and you can find no work and cannot support yourself what rights do you have now that you didn't have 30 years ago? Do you have the right to housing? Benefits? Healthcare? Anything?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

" If I want to work in the US, I dont have that right. I can apply for a visa, but I might be turned down, the US government can stop me if they dont want me to work there.

So your point is exactly? I have worked and holidayed there and it 'ain't no big deal'. But then they look after themselves don't they so why shouldn't we?

The right to go and work in all of the member states of the EU, did NOT exist before the EU, you had to apply for a visa. Why do you say that we had that right before the EU when we didn't?

With regards to the freedom to work in other countries, I was using the EU as shorthand for the EU and its predecessor organisations. So I will ask you the question, did we have the automatic right to go and work in France or Italy or Germany before we joined the EU or its predecessor organisations? Yes or No?

You say that we were never asked about political union, but the UK was asked, there was the Maastricht Treaty (1991), and our democratically elected politicians signed that treaty. We could have put pressure on those politicians not to sign it, but we didn’t, we could have kicked them out at the next election (1992) but we didn’t.

It didn’t suddenly become 28 countries, the joined in drips and drabs over the years, the most being 10 countries accepted at one time. Britain had a veto, if Britain had wanted even one of those countries not to join, all it would have had to do was say “No” we don’t want them. Take the 10 accession countries in 2004 for example. We could have put pressure on the government to reject Estonia for example, and say that they couldn’t join, but did we? No. We could have kicked the government out at the next general election, but did we? NO.

My point regarding rights, is that the Leave vote has stripped away the rights of millions of people, the population of the UK right now, including those who weren’t old enough to vote, and those who are not yet born. Think of the people in NI that live close to the border and might want to work on the other side. You voted to strip them of that right. A right that anyone 43 or younger has had since birth. You have taken that away from them. The people who said that they voted leave for their children and grandchildren, you have stripped them of those rights as well.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?

the right but not the bloody freedom!! Jeez

Would you rather have Human Rights, or Human Freedoms? Would you like the Right to Life, or the freedom to life that can be revoked? The Right to a fair trial, or the Freedom of a fair trial, but maybe that will be amended depending on the will of the government? The Right to an education, or perhaps the government might change that to the freedom of education for some people?

When you have a right, you have the freedom to exercise that right. I have the Right to go and live in Portugal, but I have the freedom to chose not to.

When you have the freedom that you are talking about, nothing is guaranteed. I have the freedom to apply to be the next England football manager, doesn’t mean I’m going to get it. I have the freedom to APPLY for a visa to Australia, it doesn’t mean that I will be granted a visa.

Using your example of moving to France, I currently have the right, but in the future I might have the freedom to apply for a visa to work there, but they might have a limit on the number of British people they want working there, and refuse me because they have too many now. How is that better for me than the right that I have to work there now?

Why do you think that a freedom is better than a right?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" If I want to work in the US, I dont have that right. I can apply for a visa, but I might be turned down, the US government can stop me if they dont want me to work there.

So your point is exactly? I have worked and holidayed there and it 'ain't no big deal'. But then they look after themselves don't they so why shouldn't we?

The right to go and work in all of the member states of the EU, did NOT exist before the EU, you had to apply for a visa. Why do you say that we had that right before the EU when we didn't?

but not their freedoms ffs!

It's like you are saying they have the right to any job they choose

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is somewhat difficult to give those who are too young to vote an opportunity to do so. It is even harder in the case of those not yet born.

The country was offered a referendum. What could be fairer than that.

No rights have been lost.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?

the right but not the bloody freedom!! Jeez

When you have a right, you have the freedom to exercise that right. I have the Right to go and live in Portugal, but I have the freedom to chose not to.

Why do you think that a freedom is better than a right?"

and if they want to refuse you then what point is having the right? You wouldnt get a job anyway would you! So in knowing that, it is better for you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before..

No there'd be pretty much the same if you lived in Britain spending your money on British stuff.

Now if you wanted to send three quarters of your money back to Poland/Romania/Slovakia/Romania or wherever... Yes you'll be on a loser, that's how it works!

No shit Sherlock, so your answer is Greece?.

Tell you what let's get back to basics instead of arguing.

Is it going to be painful... Probably!

An 18% to 30% reduction in the 'value' of sterling might help our exporters (who knows?) it definitely will hurt everyone else who buys things from apples to audis to aspirin.

Greece is exactly the same as everybody else, that's my point, sure there smaller, but the problems the same.

Do you continually run your economy down with austerity trying to complete with your surplus neighbour.... Or do you take the awful tasting medicine which allows you to stop the outflow of money?.

For all Osbourne's bullshit about balanced budgets, everybody with half a brain new that was not going to happen without some major change!....

I don't want a politican with answers anymore, frankly I've had enough of their answers over the last 40 years.... I'm willing to take a chance on the person whos posing the questions!

I've no idea about wether were taking people back to the middle age,i figured small pox has been eradicated so I was going for the 20th century instead

Anyhoo, yes the outflow being the 10 billion+ a month trade deficit and bad tasting medicine being the fact that some of that will go up in price(bad for consumers) and hopefully will lead to less..

Whereas hopefully ours will come down in price(good for the country) and hopefully lead to an increase but even if it doesn't we only need exports to go down less than imports.... Or we could just continue to hemorrhage money out of the country while continuing with austerity and see how that goes... But imo I think we'll just end up like Greece doing that, so yes it may have to get worse to get better!

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?

the right but not the bloody freedom!! Jeez

When you have a right, you have the freedom to exercise that right. I have the Right to go and live in Portugal, but I have the freedom to chose not to.

Why do you think that a freedom is better than a right?

and if they want to refuse you then what point is having the right? You wouldnt get a job anyway would you! So in knowing that, it is better for you"

The point of having the right is that even if they want to refuse me they cant! Why wouldn't I get a job? There are plenty of Brits working in France.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?

the right but not the bloody freedom!! Jeez

When you have a right, you have the freedom to exercise that right. I have the Right to go and live in Portugal, but I have the freedom to chose not to.

Why do you think that a freedom is better than a right?

and if they want to refuse you then what point is having the right? You wouldnt get a job anyway would you! So in knowing that, it is better for you

The point of having the right is that even if they want to refuse me they cant! Why wouldn't I get a job? There are plenty of Brits working in France.

for goodness sake, regardless of rights, if nobody wants you nobody wants you and that's it! People can't be forced to employ you. If you are wanted/needed you will get a job, if not, you won't. It has always been this way and always will be. F.A to do with the EU

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?

the right but not the bloody freedom!! Jeez

When you have a right, you have the freedom to exercise that right. I have the Right to go and live in Portugal, but I have the freedom to chose not to.

Why do you think that a freedom is better than a right?

and if they want to refuse you then what point is having the right? You wouldnt get a job anyway would you! So in knowing that, it is better for you

The point of having the right is that even if they want to refuse me they cant! Why wouldn't I get a job? There are plenty of Brits working in France.

Argh! If the employer wants me, but the French government doesn't because It has set and immigration limit, now the French government can't stop me, and I can take up the job. With your "Freedom" if the employer wants me, but the French government says no, we're full, then I can't take up the job can I? Get it now?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

Which were?

The freedom to make our own laws and regulations, set our own taxes and terms of trade, to democratically elect the people we choose to govern us etc etc.

So what do you think gives them a better life here? And if they were really needed then what would have stopped them coming if we weren't in the EU?"

What gives them the incentive to come here is that they could work here and be e treated the same as other people who live here and they are not conned by big companies - which is what your claim was before you meandered away from it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

no, you are confused, I said freedom not right. Why should you have the right to live anywhere?

the right but not the bloody freedom!! Jeez

When you have a right, you have the freedom to exercise that right. I have the Right to go and live in Portugal, but I have the freedom to chose not to.

Why do you think that a freedom is better than a right?

and if they want to refuse you then what point is having the right? You wouldnt get a job anyway would you! So in knowing that, it is better for you

The point of having the right is that even if they want to refuse me they cant! Why wouldn't I get a job? There are plenty of Brits working in France.

Look for another job then

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Look for another job then

Because someone else voted my rights away, brilliant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

Which were?

The freedom to make our own laws and regulations, set our own taxes and terms of trade, to democratically elect the people we choose to govern us etc etc.

So what do you think gives them a better life here? And if they were really needed then what would have stopped them coming if we weren't in the EU?

do you all have to copy the whole reply, why not just use the bit you are replying to?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier."

A quote from a BBC News Article: Who will pick our strawberries when we leave the EU.

"he's not certain the seasonal workers, who come and go each year, will keep coming. If they're told to fill in extra paperwork and apply for visas, or are restricted by quotas, they may end up going to other European countries instead: perhaps Spain, the Netherlands or France. Especially if the pound remains weak.Some recruitment agencies have already said interest is lower than usual following thereferendum. "Why would you come here if the message isyou're not welcome?" says Laurence Olins, chairman of the industry association, BritishSummer Fruits. "Europe is a big place. They don't have to come here. We're competing in a global market for labour. It's a very mobile resource."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier.

A quote from a BBC News Article: Who will pick our strawberries when we leave the EU.

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier.

A quote from a BBC News Article: Who will pick our strawberries when we leave the EU.

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form."
You really need to check how visas work it's a lot more to it than filling in a form and it's cost money alot of it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier.

A quote from a BBC News Article: Who will pick our strawberries when we leave the EU.

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form. You really need to check how visas work it's a lot more to it than filling in a form and it's cost money alot of it "

Well, that depends on the requirements.

The requirements will depend on the negotiations.

If you have a crystal ball, you are welcome to educate us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier.

A quote from a BBC News Article: Who will pick our strawberries when we leave the EU.

You could do it, save you going to France.

Never heard such bollocks

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By *issing in actionWoman
over a year ago

Llanelli

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form."

How would they get enough points to get a work visa if all they're qualified to do is pick strawberries? How do they support themselves while they wait to see if their paperwork is approved? How long would it take before they could start work?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier.

A quote from a BBC News Article: Who will pick our strawberries when we leave the EU.

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

Well, that depends on the requirements.

The requirements will depend on the negotiations.

If you have a crystal ball, you are welcome to educate us."
requirements or not negotiations or not the home office will still have to do their job which includes background checks ..which is one of the main reasons why these things take time and cost money

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dept of Health has been told to prepare plans for Brexit (possibly all govt depts have?)

There was a report out yesterday about how the NHS was facing a nursing crisis and that 13% of nurses currently come from the EU. When we leave I think a lot fewer are going to want to work here.

Why? We need nurses. They get paid.

We have no more racists than we had before - they have just temporarily become more vocal (which makes them easier to identify).

Believe me, racism is a far greater issue in other countries.

A points based immigration system? Not a problem for health workers. We need them.

Also don’t forget that the value of the pound has tumbled against the Euro, so the wages in the UK would be comparatively lower than they would have been before.

If I were an Italian nurse, I would look at a number of factors. Price and quality of living. Working hours. Facilities. Housing. Presumably, I would already be somewhat dissatisfied with Italy.

The value of the Euro? Not so much, as I would be living here but that would depend on various factors.

Why? What do you think an Italian nurse would look at?

If you don't believe that the fall of the pound vs the Euro will put off one person coming to the UK to work, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you don't believe that having an immigration system, compared to previous free movement, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Then we will.

They may have to fill a form in. They fill forms in every day. They fill a form in to work in the NHS before they come here in any event. It will be a form. It is not a barrier.

A quote from a BBC News Article: Who will pick our strawberries when we leave the EU.

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

Well, that depends on the requirements.

The requirements will depend on the negotiations.

If you have a crystal ball, you are welcome to educate us. requirements or not negotiations or not the home office will still have to do their job which includes background checks ..which is one of the main reasons why these things take time and cost money"

And whether we charge and what we charge is just one of those many things that will need to be decided.

I can't see us wanting to put off agricultural workers but do carry on with the crystal ball.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

Tier 2 visa is needed for skilled jobs such as nursing. You have to be sponsored for it, and it will cost you £575, plus an additional £575 per dependent, plus £200 per person, per year for the healthcare surcharge.

So if we take a family of 4, wanting to stay for 4 years, it will be £2,300 for the visa plus £3,200 for healthcare, for a total of £5,500.

You still think that that won't be a barrier for people?

With regards to the application, you have to pass an English language test in reading, writing, speaking and listening (you have to pay for the test too). Then you have to submit the visa application form, plus your passport, passport sized photos, bank statements showing you have had at least £945 in savings over the last 90 days (plus an additional £630 per dependent, so a total of £2835 for our family of 4), proof of passing the English tests, the results of your tuberculosis tests (yeah you have to pay for that too), certified translation of any documents not in English or welsh. Each dependent fills out their own visa application form, copys of marriage and birth certificates, letter from your bank/s etc. So I'm going to guess that is going to take a little bit more than 5 minutes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I don't have a problem with immigration the way it is now, but to change from free movement of Labour to free movement of People is a terrible idea.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684968/EU-four-freedoms-what-freedom-of-movement-goods-capital-services-workers-European-Union

Nope, it's workers:

Quote taken from the European Commission, not from a tabloid.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

You're both right, sort of. Article 45 is part of Title IV of the TFEU which is entitled:

FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL

....and then goes on to say, about free movement of workers....

CHAPTER 1

WORKERS

Article 45

(ex Article 39 TEC)

1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.

4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

The freedoms we had before the rotten EU you mean?

Which were?

The freedom to make our own laws and regulations, set our own taxes and terms of trade, to democratically elect the people we choose to govern us etc etc.

So what do you think gives them a better life here? And if they were really needed then what would have stopped them coming if we weren't in the EU?

do you all have to copy the whole reply, why not just use the bit you are replying to?"

Says the person who quite happily quoted page after page of the vote leave prospectus?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

So if we take a family of 4, wanting to stay for 4 years, it will be £2,300 for the visa plus £3,200 for healthcare, for a total of £5,500.

You still think that that won't be a barrier for people?

That doesn't sound unreasonable at all

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

So if we take a family of 4, wanting to stay for 4 years, it will be £2,300 for the visa plus £3,200 for healthcare, for a total of £5,500.

You still think that that won't be a barrier for people?

And who knows what the revised regulations will be? No one yet.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 09/07/16 17:21:16]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Says the person who quite happily quoted page after page of the vote leave prospectus? "

hopefully it convinced many to vote Leave, including yourself

effort earns reward and it looks like it paid off as the vast majority of the UK voted to leave

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

So if we take a family of 4, wanting to stay for 4 years, it will be £2,300 for the visa plus £3,200 for healthcare, for a total of £5,500.

You still think that that won't be a barrier for people?

And who knows what the revised regulations will be? No one yet."

Why do you even think that the regulations will be revised? This is the immigration policy of the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Look for another job then

Because someone else voted my rights away, brilliant. "

If you are any good at your job you'd be able to get a visa to work anywhere in the world

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation? "

You should have tried harder at grammer and spelling

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Look for another job then

Because someone else voted my rights away, brilliant.

If you are any good at your job you'd be able to get a visa to work anywhere in the world

Exactly; that is absolutely spot on

and your company or corporation will complete the majority of the paperwork for you, as well as relocation, schooling for kids, medical cover etc

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation? "

If they hadn't we'd have voted to remain.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation?

If they hadn't we'd have voted to remain."

Its been widely reported that the people who voted Leave generally had lower academic achievements than those who voted to Remain.

Of course that is just averages, not everyone.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just a comment on what it was like before we joined the EEC? To work in Germany you had to get an 'Entry Visa' (Eintrittserlaubnis) from the German consulate. It took 10 minutes. When you got to Germany you went with your employer to get a 'Work Permit' (Arbeitserlaubnis). That took about 30 minutes.

After which you could work for as long as you were needed.

Just like the USA: "It ain't no big deal"

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Just a comment on what it was like before we joined the EEC? To work in Germany you had to get an 'Entry Visa' (Eintrittserlaubnis) from the German consulate. It took 10 minutes. When you got to Germany you went with your employer to get a 'Work Permit' (Arbeitserlaubnis). That took about 30 minutes.

After which you could work for as long as you were needed.

Just like the USA: "It ain't no big deal""

Times have changed old son who wants to go back to the past

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

After which you could work for as long as you were needed.

Just like the USA: "It ain't no big deal""

Well I doubt much has changed since then, like reunification, fall of the Berlin wall, collapse of the Warsaw pact etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Says the person who quite happily quoted page after page of the vote leave prospectus? "

hopefully it convinced many to vote Leave, including yourself

effort earns reward and it looks like it paid off as the vast majority of the UK voted to leave

Vast majority? The process of air brushing history follows the lies and propaganda.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

After which you could work for as long as you were needed.

Just like the USA: "It ain't no big deal""

Your experience of the German work permit process before we joined the EEC must have been limited given that at the age of 6 in 1976 your parents would have been looking for a primary school for you, not a job.

Since 2007, as a non EU citizen you'd have to go through the blue card process and that restricts getting a work permit to people like higher paid graduates, non-graduates who have taken a German vocational course, lower paid people who can give social care and so on.

It looks like blue cards for lorry drivers to live and work in Germany could be hard to come by, for example.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation? "

What a load of rubbish, being well educated doesn't make you more intelligent

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

"And if you are claiming your pension you are entitled to free health care in the country of your choice under a similar agreement to the health card, so check all the facts

To be accurate;

If you move to another EU country to work; you sign up and pay their version of NI or " Social Contribution".

If you are drawing UK state pension, the UK likewise write to your host country to tell them that the UK will reimburse them for your healthcare.

It's a reciprocal arrangement between all EU countries ( and between several non- EU countries, too).

But retired people don’t WORK! So they wouldn’t be paying any NI in this country would they? And as they are not working, they won’t have been sent here by a company will they?

Who’s to say that this agreement will remain when we leave the EU?

and as the poster above you said, this arrangement already applies to some countries outside of the EU so why would it change?

The retiree wont have paid any council tax to the local authority. So why should the other council tax payers then have to fund the social care that at least some of them are going to need?

Dear god, how ignorant can you be?

Foreigners who live in the UK( retired or not) pay council tax in in the area they live in. ( as do British residents in the EU pay local equivalents where they live. ) and if you have earnings( from work, or pensions) you pay income tax, too, according to the rules of the country you are residing in, at the time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Says the person who quite happily quoted page after page of the vote leave prospectus? "

hopefully it convinced many to vote Leave, including yourself

effort earns reward and it looks like it paid off as the vast majority of the UK voted to leave

Vast majority? The process of air brushing history follows the lies and propaganda."

I guess you are having trouble coming to terms with the results, "Man up" and get on with life

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"Interesting times.

maybe free movement of people and not free movement of labour.

This is all new with no comparisons available .To compare us with norway is not helpful.

Free movement of people and if you wish to work in the UK then apply for a work permit

We would just have a load of retired people moving here. People who haven't paid into our social security system, but reaping the benefits of it.

no, that would be great. Spending their pensions here and taking nothing out

I don't know why I should be, this is an internet forum after all, but I am actually shocked at your display of economic incompetence.

What don't you get there? Explain

Do you think that the thousands of Brits who retire to Spain say are a benefit to their economy or a drain?

I think you are talking about the free movement of Goal Posts now!

With free movement of Labour there is no need to be self supporting, they just come over. EU citizens coming to the UK don’t get benefits from their home countries, they get them from us.

EHIC (if we are even still a part of the system after Brexit) is mainly for holidays, rather than living. The following is from the NHS website.

"If you are moving abroad on a permanent basis...most people will no longer be entitled to use your UK-issued European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to access healthcare abroad.

It's changed in Spain now... if you retire there under 65 you have to pay €60 per month for health care, and €157 per month if you're over 65. You also have to pay full price for prescriptions. This is from the government website on living in Spain.

So obviously they are contributing!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Says the person who quite happily quoted page after page of the vote leave prospectus? "

hopefully it convinced many to vote Leave, including yourself

effort earns reward and it looks like it paid off as the vast majority of the UK voted to leave

Vast majority? The process of air brushing history follows the lies and propaganda.

I guess you are having trouble coming to terms with the results, "Man up" and get on with life"

Clearly not as much trouble as you were having reading this thread. 'Man up' and get on with the big problems in your life like scrolling through the forum without whinging.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Im not going to reply in separate messages to the responses to me, i’ll do it in one post, you can just figure it out which response is for you.

I am talking about EU pensioners coming to the UK, not British pensioners going to Spain. Still no one has told me when free movement of people is better than free movement of labour.

Im not ignorant, you seem to be the one who is confused, if a state pensioner from Eastern Europe moved to the UK, their pension is probably going to be too small, and so they will be able to claim council tax benefit, and thus pay little to no council tax, depending not the levels of relief set by the local authority, thus they will no be contributing the to pot that will probably have to support them for social care will they?

I assume from the lack of response that at least one person has decided that yes, rights are better than freedoms.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation?

What a load of rubbish, being well educated doesn't make you more intelligent"

Firstly I wasn’t talking about education vs intelligence, but since you brought it up, yes most intelligent people are well educated. Without education (please notice I said education, not formal education) most people are pretty stuck, they wouldn’t be able to read or write or do simple maths, understand scientific concepts etc. etc.

The point I was making is that it has been widely reported that generally, Remainers had a greater level of academic achievement than Leavers, therefore I was suggesting that if more people had greater academic achievements, more people would have voted to Remain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation?

If they hadn't we'd have voted to remain.

Its been widely reported that the people who voted Leave generally had lower academic achievements than those who voted to Remain.

Of course that is just averages, not everyone."

Widely reported? Of course that must be right then.

I don't recall having to list my academic achievements on the ballot paper.

I don't think many journalists got to root around in the ballot boxes either.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation?

What a load of rubbish, being well educated doesn't make you more intelligent

I'm not sure what difference an education makes simply because people should make a choice by listening to the points made by politicians, way up the pro's and con's etc and what they themselves feel is important to them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

After which you could work for as long as you were needed.

Just like the USA: "It ain't no big deal"

Well I doubt much has changed since then, like reunification, fall of the Berlin wall, collapse of the Warsaw pact etc.

Well all those were a total irrelevance to the point in hand. To which I would ask is that so VERY difficult having to apply for a visa? We all managed it years ago and we will manage it now IF, and it is a big 'IF', that is what we put in place. But I understand you demand your 'right' to go anywhere. Well that's cool but to give you your 'right' to toddle off anywhere you choose we have to give that same 'right' to 500 million people who have contributed nothing to wander in to the UK and take advantage of what the UK has built up over generations.

I am sure you are a lovely person but I would rather you lost your 'rights' to preserve my right to a live in a country that maintains a sensible balance in its migration policy... Sometimes the wellbeing of the majority overrides the wishes of the few...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Picking strawberries is bloody hard work.

I am sure that anyone willing to do that will not be too worried about 5 minutes spent filling in a form.

If they tried harder at school they would be able to get enough points and subsequently a better job

Or if the population if the UK had tried a bit harder at school perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation?

If they hadn't we'd have voted to remain.

Its been widely reported that the people who voted Leave generally had lower academic achievements than those who voted to Remain.

Of course that is just averages, not everyone.

Widely reported? Of course that must be right then.

I don't recall having to list my academic achievements on the ballot paper.

I don't think many journalists got to root around in the ballot boxes either."

This

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

After which you could work for as long as you were needed.

Just like the USA: "It ain't no big deal"

It looks like blue cards for lorry drivers to live and work in Germany could be hard to come by, for example.

Why do you ALWAYS look to make it personal? Did I say it was me applying for a work permit? NO so your bloody point is exactly?

No I was reporting what the process was pre-EEC in reply to someone who asked. If you have a problem with what I said do please produce factual rebuttal.

And oh dear we have the lorry driver crap again. Like they are the shit of the earth ... Just remember Old Son without truck drivers like me and millions of people like me you wouldn't get anything delivered which means no food on supermarket shelves, no fuel at petrol stations and industry would stop in 3 days flat. And some of us remember handling TIR Carnets to deliver to Spain or Poland or Czechoslovakia etc and 'T Forms' to deliver into Germany and France and other European countries. And you are trying to lecture me on visas?

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

Funny how for months before the referendum I was saying that if we voted 'out' it would make no difference economically because nothing would change. We would still have EU regs, pay the same money to Brussels and have free movement of labour between us and the EU because that is the cost of access to the single market. All that would happen is we would lose our place at the negotiation table and with it our chance to frame and veto EU legislation.

I seem to remember I was told I did not know what I was talking about and could not tell the future because I did not have a Chrystal ball.

Any of those who said I did not know my arse from my elbow like to retract their previous comments?

Welcome to flexit, how to give away our power in the EU and leave without leaving.

And yes, I am saying "I told you so."

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