FabSwingers.com forum: Plea for help from Leavers

By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

We were both Remainers. S campaigned in the last couple of weeks and it is S doing the posting here. Neither of us (or our friends or social media friends) understand why people voted leave yet 17 million people did so I want to try and understand why, as I am clearly out of touch with over half the population.

I was wondering if a small number of Leavers would have time to explain to me why they voted the way they did, and answer my questions (which will hopefully be searching and challenging, but not rude or offensive) about their reasons?

Thanks in advance

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My reason was an easy one. I think the original concept of the common market was a good one and still is. But it should be open to all European Countries not just the ones forced to be subserviant to the EU.

The EU is a bullying monster. No one can answer the following question. On what day did we vote yes to a European Parliament? The answer; we were never asked because we would never have agreed.

Over the last decade the EU have gradually whittled away at each and every member state. The only way to stop a bully is to stand up to them. If not what more power would they have taken over the next decade?

Other countries will follow us and the experiment on Europe will have failed. Hopefully all the countries will then reform the open market in another form or come to new trade deals without forking out millions for beaurocrats we don't want or need. Meanwhile all retaining our individualism that makes each country unique in its own right.

I knew it would be a rocky ride and short term we were better off in. But I believe long term we are better off out and it will ultimately benefit my children.

If I'm wrong the EU get the bloody nose they deserve and will be forced to reform regardless. And I guarantee they would take us back with open arms whenever it suited us and under our terms.

I could expand and explain much better but that is the jist of it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Didnt wanna be ruled from brussels the money they gave cud be better of spent here fishing rights the list cud be endless

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

Thank you for taking the time to do this.

Not sure I understand what your plan is going forward, though it looks from the first paragraph like it could be to remain in the EEA (the Norway option) is that correct?

The next part of your message seems to concern itself with perceived historical bullying (some examples would be good here - do you have any?). I think it was under Thatcher that we saw the formation of what you think of as a European Parliament. Whether I am right or wrong the decision was surely made by our government of the day, who we would have voted for.

You seem to hope for the break-up of the rest of Europe, and then the reforming of a market that somehow forms itself without any bureaucrats. Surely if there is a market it has to be formed, maintained, have its rules enforced? Can this be done without bureaucrats?

I have to say I find your statement "I guarantee they would take us back with open arms whenever it suited us and under our terms" pretty mystifying. I am not aware that there is any agreement amongst the Leavers about what terms are satisfactory, and I can't see how you can speak for the EU. This is surely just unsubstantiated bluster, no?

I get the bit about long term rewards possibly being better than short term pain, but I have not seen anyone say what those long term rewards might be - do you know what we are missing out on as part of Europe? Has it a greater value than what we get from Europe?

Once again thanks for answering - I am sure I will understand eventually if I keep at it.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"Didnt wanna be ruled from brussels the money they gave cud be better of spent here fishing rights the list cud be endless"

Thanks for answering.

In what way do Brussels rule us? Surely we have had (until last week) a voice in all the legislation?

The money we pay to Europe gives us access to the European market - how do you propose to replace that for free? Or is it a question of how efficiently the money was spent maintaining the market?

I am not sure what you mean by 'fishing rights'. Are you a fisherman? What rights have been denied you, or extended to you that cause you difficulties? Could you not have lobbied the relevant MEP if you had a concern?

Thanks again for answering

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

Strip Search - forgot to ask - what is your plan? EEA? Bilateral agreements with Europe? WTO?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Leave campaigns logic sounds a lot like the logic of many single men on this site. Saying we're the sixth largest economy in the world and that the EU need us to remain in the free market for their own good is no different to assuming someone has to have sex with you because you sent them a dick pic.

Fingers crossed the MPs vote against any bill which repeals the European Communities Act and in doing so put all this to bed for good.

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By *ancubsaMan
over a year ago

Newport

What I see is that since the EU Parliament has become stronger they have legislated more and more and in many respect totally unnecessary creating more hassle than what it’s and as such driving the cost of stuff up.

We have lost most of our industry and fisheries (unless farmed) and they have systematically broken this country’s form of revenue. They have paid companies to move over to the continent, why?

A big to everyone it seems is immigration. Now I am not adverse to this per say and I am definitely not a racist. I will happily live next to any decent human being and treat everyone as such but, we are a small little island and most immigrants in whatever form want to come to the UK. If additional countries join the EU then we are powerless to stop them coming across, we cannot cope with the numbers we have.

Then there are double standards with deporting people, we cannot deport foreign criminal or deny them access but it seems the continent can.

Other big things like Trade Agreements and Common Markets. Remain seem to think that as soon as we’re out of the EU we’re going to be reduced to a 3rd world country as no one will want to know us. Not so! Everyone will want to deal because without us they will lose a substantial chunk of money. VAG Group, Mercedes, BMW for example. They are all in Germany and have a massive market here and if they don’t sell to us they will lose to Japanese firms and believe me they will not be happy about it. The rest of the world aren’t in the common market and they will happily trade with us. We will have more negotiating power.

Security… everyone wants the world to be a safer place (except for ISIS maybe) of course we are still going to share data, it makes sense. Why does the EU need another army, we have NATO doing exactly that! How stupid!

Have a look on youtube for ‘Brexit the Movie’, a little biased in some ways and in some parts a little boring. It is 1 hour 10 mins long, but it give a little more info.

No, I don’t want the likes of Farage, Boris and Dave in the driving seat but we do need someone strong enough to make the right decisions for the country and not self-validation. The country as a whole needs to come together to make this work.

Scotland wants back in the EU, that will kill them! Other countries want out because the EU has destroyed them. Switzerland, Finland and Norway never went in and they are fine. The EU has got so top heavy it is crumbling and if we stay in it will cost us very dearly within 5 years time.

Anyhow, time for bed.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

Iceclimber - there are loads of threads where you can dis the Leavers. Facebook is good for that - I am almost certain all your friends are Remainers - mine are, but this is a genuine attempt to understand the other point of view. If you want to engage by all means do so but in a constructive way.

You will have to understand them too - they are our overlords now!

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By *revorAndTraceyCouple
over a year ago

Newcastle Upon Tyne

Democracy ...We got sick of parliament passing the blame onto the eu as its "the eu law"

Its about time we had someone to blame when things go shit, even now their tying to pass the blame onto the people,for they got so use in not taking responsibility, their absolutely shitting themselves at the thought of having to take the shit. Parliament and its mp's are now accountable for what lays ahead, not the eu or the people of this nation and like the eu we can vote em out if their to shit.

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By *illbillMan
over a year ago

dublin

Brits never got to vote on any treaty or any legislation which requires constitutional change.. I voted countless times over the years in European referenda yet my British neighbours never did....whose fault is that...

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

Mancubsa, thanks for your response.

Can you give me some examples of goods that are more expensive as a result of EU Parliament?

You are the second person to talk about fishing - didn't realise so many swingers went to sea! I will have to research this.

You say "We have lost most of our industry" and imply this is due to the EU - do you have examples / evidence?

Also you say "they have systematically broken this country’s form of revenue" - not sure what you mean by that?

As I understand it only a small number of small countries are in the queue, so large numbers of immigrants are not likely? Or do you think Turkey is about to join? As to the coping with the numbers - what is the issue where you are? And is it really related to immigration? From the EU? Or just under-investment?

My understanding is that we have deported 6500 criminals since 2010 and there are 50 who have served their sentences here who cannot be deported. Is that your understanding? Presumably the same goes for UK rapists and murderers who have served their sentences in other EU countries? Do you know the numbers for that?

I am sure you are correct that people will want to deal with us, but they will want a legal basis for doing so: what is your plan for that? A lecture I watched by a law professor from Liverpool University said there were hardly any specialists in this area in the UK (I think he said 2!), does that not concern you? Why will we have more negotiating power with less experienced negotiating skills and about 1/8th of the population?

I will watch the movie (well, I will start it!)

If you don't want Boris etc who do you want to lead? It has to be a Leaver surely?

Surely Finland are in the EU? (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exporting-to-finland/exporting-to-finland), Norway is in the EEA and Switzerland has a raft of bilateral agreements it has taken decades to negotiate. So what is the plan?

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"Brits never got to vote on any treaty or any legislation which requires constitutional change.. I voted countless times over the years in European referenda yet my British neighbours never did....whose fault is that..."

Your answer is probably in the question: we can't have formal "constitutional change" as we don't have a constitution.

Does the fact that you voted at every turn (which must surely be quite inefficient) make people in Ireland happier with the EU? Or is there a populist / right wing party stirring things up there as well?

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"Democracy ...We got sick of parliament passing the blame onto the eu as its "the eu law"

Surely you had the chance to vote on your MEP? And you can vote them out? Slightly different process, but still democratic, surely?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hilarious,

I think this has got to be the most patronising thread I've ever seen. Being interviewed and questioned by somebody with a superior viewpoint who can't quite understand what they percieve to be "the wrong one".

Fantastic.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"Hilarious,

Fantastic.

I have to agree with your sentiment, and I voted remain!

I don't think people should have to justify how they vote.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Hi

Thanks in advance

I am passionately pro a federal Europe.

I reluctantly voted out.

My reasons were two fold, firstly after living through all our membership of the EEC and EU I have come to the conclusion that DeGaul was right when he originaly vetoed UK membership of the EEC we have never been anything more than reluctant partners and whenever we have a Tory government they do everything they can to sabotage progress to political and economic union in the EU while blaming the EU for any domestic problems. Therefore we are not good for Europe.

Secondly listening to all the lies told by both sides of the debate and the way they have been lapped up by the population, both during the campaign and before, I reached the conclusion that we and our politicians need to be made take responsibility for our decisions and the only way to do that is to remove the continual excuse of its Brussels fault.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Thank you for taking the time to do this.

Not sure I understand what your plan is going forward, though it looks from the first paragraph like it could be to remain in the EEA (the Norway option) is that correct?

Once again thanks for answering - I am sure I will understand eventually if I keep at it."

You asked and I told you. It's all opinion. Can you justify your reasoning because there is no substance behind it. Sound like the ramblings of a man man if I'm honest.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Leave campaigns logic sounds a lot like the logic of many single men on this site. Saying we're the sixth largest economy in the world and that the EU need us to remain in the free market for their own good is no different to assuming someone has to have sex with you because you sent them a dick pic.

Fingers crossed the MPs vote against any bill which repeals the European Communities Act and in doing so put all this to bed for good. "

What complete and utter bollocks. I don't need to justify myself to anyone but you sir are an idiot.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ShamelessAndHussy Good Morning, even although its evening for me as I have just finished a 12 hour shift offshore on the Oilrigs. I did vote leave and this was not an easy decision, it took a lot of debate and soul searching, I will jot down some of my main reasons, they may be right, they may be wrong.

I was a young lad when we joined the trade block in the early 1970’s and from what I can read, that was a good move with around 38% of World GDP, sadly this is drastically reducing and some report this will be less than halved by 2020 also this is not a main reason it is part of many considerations.

On main point that had me voting leave was Membership of the European Union the feeling of being run by Brussels, this is undemocratic because the European Commission, which is unelected, has the monopoly of proposing all EU legislation which it does in secret. It also has the power to issue regulations which are automatically binding in all member states, okay we have Vito’s but the majority of new legislation is brought in with very little say and this is stripping our sovereignty right before our eyes and is putting a huge load on small business.

We used to have a fishing industry in this country, until it was destroyed by the EU. British fishing policy is determined by the political imperative of European integration. The objective is to create an EU fishing fleet catching EU fish in EU waters under an EU permit system controlled from Brussels, This is not new, this has been a drip feed of regulation after regulation year after year cutting away at our borders and enforcing rules. Surplus fish were processed into fishmeal, a very useful protein source for our livestock. The EU took over and now this surplus has to be dumped, dead, at the bottom of the sea. An independent Britain could turn this round. All over the world farmers are exporting food and feedstuffs to the EU, tariff free. They do not have to adhere to these rules

British fishermen have since 1983 been ordered by this unelected bureaucracy of Brussels to dump hundreds of thousands of tons of prime quality fish all dead back into the sea in the name of conservation, to pollute the fishing grounds in almost every area where our vessels operate

The unelected European Commission has the monopoly of proposing all EU legislation, which it does in secret, I am against this. It can also issue “Regulations”, which are automatically binding in all Member States. It is run by a college of 27 commissioners, currently one for each member state. It has 37 branches, or “Directorates General”, each run by a Director General. The Directors General have the real power and can rule for many years. They cannot be removed from office, why can they not be removed!!

The Commission is a legislative machine, continually producing new draft directives and regulations which are passed to the Council of Ministers and European Parliament for final decision. Each individual Commissioner seeks to make his or her mark during the five-year period in office by proposing new laws for the portfolio area they cover. Thus a condition for supranational legislation in the EU is that draft laws cannot be proposed by elected representatives. French President Charles De Gaulle described the Commission as “a conclave of technocrats without a country, responsible to nobody”. Surely they need to show account & justification and be held to account by Scotland and UK if things go wrong.

The Commission also has quasi-judicial powers. It can adjudicate on competition cases in the single market and impose fines on EU members. Even though parties can appeal to the Court of Justice, the Commission acts as if it were a lower court. It is supported by some 3,000 “secret” working groups, whose members are not publicly known. It is at this level that most Commission decisions are actually made and corporate lobbyists wield their influence, do you remember only a few months back Scotland was to be fined over £100 million for delayed payment of farming subsidies this was due to a new computer system and hick ups, this fine is still hanging over Scotland.

I have a lot more to say on this especially with regards to farming, jobs, trade, economy and ofcourse immigration which I will get back to you on, but right now im going upstairs for a cuppa and a game of pool with the lads

My main reason is Sovereignty, but obviously I will get back on these points of farming, jobs, trade, economy when I get time

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By *olgateMan
over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

The EU GDP has stayed stagnant for the past 10 years. UK stand to lose 1% of GDP by leaving EU but stand to gain 10% growth in GDP by being free of restraint to trade with the rest of the world.

Neither the Remain camp or the exit camp produced the figures, but they are in this YouTube clip.

http://youtu.be/i9cLwoTkWes

Hope you can read subtitles, this guy talks fast

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By *revorAndTraceyCouple
over a year ago

Newcastle Upon Tyne

"Democracy ...We got sick of parliament passing the blame onto the eu as its "the eu law"

Surely you had the chance to vote on your MEP? And you can vote them out? Slightly different process, but still democratic, surely?"

Surely you know MEPs are there as a facade of democracy and have as much power as the house of lords do in this country Its the faceless eu commission which make eu law not the mep's you do know that don't you, surely ?

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By *VBethTV/TS
over a year ago

Chester

I'll start with an analogy. If you went into a cafe and ordered a bacon sarnie and they served you a 3 course meal of their most expensive dishes then billed you for that, would you pay? The trading block was a great idea and that's what we chose to join way back. How is it that we ended up having regulations galore foisted on us from a new layer of government??

Ever watched people clock in at the EU HQ and then sneak out the side door, coming back in at 5pm to clock out? I remember watching LOTS do that on a documentary.

Ever seen an EU member ignore an EU law while we slavishly obey every single one? It happens a lot. Ask fishermen who were hunted down by our own navy years ago....

Imagine moving your HQ to stop a country stamping its feet and sulking. Now imagine doing it regularly.... and the amount of cash wasted. Not that it matters, no accountant has ever signed off on their accounts. EVER.

Although patently what they are aiming for, Europe cannot be another USA. We have different cultures, languages, heritage, currencies and histories. Ever closer union is stupid and backlash was bound to happen. We just went first.

I very happily stand by my out vote. If we have to have corrupt money grabbing gits ruling the country then at least it will be OUR corrupt money grabbing gits.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Because of people like you OP who do not listen

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By *lik and PaulCouple
over a year ago

Flagrante

"Democracy ...We got sick of parliament passing the blame onto the eu as its "the eu law"

Surely you had the chance to vote on your MEP? And you can vote them out? Slightly different process, but still democratic, surely?

...this....the EU is not only non democratic, it's anti democratic....we do not vote for the decision makers and we can't vote them out either. Trading with the whole world without blocks and vetoes plus having some form of trade with Europe surely makes more economic sense but this is for our elected politicians to sort out and while everyone is throwing spanners in the works this will take longer.

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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

Try googling Daniel hannan oxford uni debating.He is a mep and gives a very convincing argument from someone on the inside

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ofcourse this vote was not the difficult vote, the most difficult vote will ofcourse be for Scots to decide if they wish to remain in EU and in turn ballot for independence.

half my heart says stay with Britain, be British, be proud, the other half says go for Independence, okay that will go against my main arguments against Brussels but we can still fight that another day.

My head on the other hand says remaining in EU and an independent Scotland will hugely benefit Scotland, if Scotland plays its cards right, it will take away a huge amount of London financial market jobs as markets who intend to move to Europe may move up to Edinburgh and skilled employees will follow, estimates on this right now are between 50,000 to 100,000 jobs.

Scotland will take over Britain's roll as a hub into EU & Europe, USA and countries outside EU will deal with EU through us, this is a possibility.

On a personal front, I am looking into this with consideration of purchasing further property, I have a large property just now which is my home, and also a 2 bedroom flat, If I purchase more just now on the gamble that there will be an influx of Londoners as well as others who wish to remain part of the EU then property prices will continue to rise and further profit can be made. Its looking ahead but you have to spend your hard earned cash in some way and I feel in property, if you invest right, and it goes tits up, you still get your cash back. Of course The Scottish Government is also freeing up huge amounts of land right now with "the right to buy" and forcing sale of crofts etc which are not being worked on, this could be another move.

So the heavy decision still to come is for the people of Scotland to decide, will we become part of EU which in turn removes a huge lot of our say, will we fight for independence tearing us away from Britain but tieing us into the EU

or will we stay as we are.

You think the people of England and Wales have a lot to think about, we have twice as much

The other point is that so many Brits outwith Scotland put Scotland down, they say we cost England so much, they say things would be far better without us, this does not help in a decision.

So is it true, you want Scotland to leave, go for joint independence and EU membership, or do you wish us to remain as one united Britain

Convince me

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By *VBethTV/TS
over a year ago

Chester

Scotland would not get automatic rights to join the EU as had been explained elsewhere. The UK as a whole is the EU member. One out, all out applies. Scotland will be out and, if they vote to leave the UK they can apply to join the EU. IF all the remaining members approve it (Spain won't as it would give their own troublesome states fuel) AND all the articles of membership are met (they aren't) then Scotland could join the EU. There is a belief that Scotland can just slide into our empty seat. This is a massive lie and people spreading it are just as guilty as the Leave and Remain campaigns who spread theirs.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Scotland would not get automatic rights to join the EU as had been explained elsewhere. The UK as a whole is the EU member. One out, all out applies. Scotland will be out and, if they vote to leave the UK they can apply to join the EU. IF all the remaining members approve it (Spain won't as it would give their own troublesome states fuel) AND all the articles of membership are met (they aren't) then Scotland could join the EU. There is a belief that Scotland can just slide into our empty seat. This is a massive lie and people spreading it are just as guilty as the Leave and Remain campaigns who spread theirs. "

Geez Beth why didn't you text Nicola with that, it would have saved on her flight to Brussels and the arranged 5pm meetings tonight, you should contact both sky & the BBC, tell them to stop wasting their time reporting on this "non issue" event, do you really think their will be pointless talks & meetings regarding this issue if its a non starter?

sorry to the OP for diverting from his initial post, I will have no further comments on his thread unless direct with him, sorry S.

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By *VBethTV/TS
over a year ago

Chester

sorry to the OP for diverting from his initial post, I will have no further comments on his thread unless direct with him, sorry S."

I noted the media, both print and broadcast, have not covered themselves in glory with their unbiased accurate reporting. They are speculating as much as everyone else. I am basing the Spanish rejection on interviews with Spanish MEPs who have categorically said no as it would give their own Catalonia fuel for independence. Nicola is putting on a good show I must admit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The main jist of the official Leave campaign seemed focussed on uncontrolled immigration, sovereignty, and boris Johnsons political ambitions...

The reason why Jeremy Corbyn, George Galloway and others from the left 'propa', voted to leave can perhaps best be understood from the Lexit film that the Left.Leave campaign made:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4

It's about an hour long - I found it interesting viewing and it presented a non-xenophobic basis for wanting to leave the EU - fear of EU enforced privatisation, fortress Europe, undemocratic organisation of the power structures, treatment of people outside the EU, fish industry...etc

Naively some of these on the left probably felt that Labour would fill the void left by the broken Tories... Alas, their own implosion has meant that there is barely a party for the electorate to choose from.

Given the fallout, I wonder if corbyn regrets putting party management ahead of principles and not coming clean about wanting to leave - and more importantly why. The lefts reasons, to me, at least are much more palatable than those espoused by the official Leavers, and worthy of hearing in a debate.

As far as debate is concerned - my personal view is you go into a debate with a set of ideas that are hopefully backed up by precedent, evidence or logic, and just as importantly, a preparedness to amend such ideas based what you learn during the discussions.

There was no sincerity when it came to the debates we saw on tv - soundbites, insults and half truths to further an agenda meant that nobody watching (or taking part) were able to further their ag understanding.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"I reached the conclusion that we and our politicians need to be made take responsibility for our decisions and the only way to do that is to remove the continual excuse of its Brussels fault."

Well, it got a laugh! Do you have an escape plan?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I reached the conclusion that we and our politicians need to be made take responsibility for our decisions and the only way to do that is to remove the continual excuse of its Brussels fault.

Well, it got a laugh! Do you have an escape plan?"

was waiting for a reply as you don't accept mail

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"ShamelessAndHussy Good Morning,

Good Morning to you HandInHand and thank you for all that. I have to say the democracy / transparency argument has been one that I have struggled with most and have most sympathy with. In the end it came down to three things for me:

1. Pretty much everything you say applies to the UK already and no-one gets (so) het up about that. Substitute House of Lords for Commissioner, and Senior Civil Servant for the other positions and you are not far off describing the UK set-up, which no-one seems that perturbed by, in comparison.

2. There have to be people in post who do not get re-elected every N years. These people ensure continuity and expertise (bad word I know). I assume they can all be removed from post (or moved somewhere they can do less damage) if they do a bad job, like all other employees. They do not set out to do a bad job. The alternative is what we do with ministers - appoint people who haven't got a clue to the top job for just long enough to find their arse with both hands before they are shuffled off. We can get away with that only with the stability the civil servants bring.

3. A judgement call about whether this lack of transparent accountability was a bad enough thing to risk the union, the (already dodgy) economy, European stability etc.

I assume you would acknowledge that we have to have laws? Would you go as far as to think that there are potential efficiencies in having the drafting of them shared by many people with broadly similar aims? The laws are scrutinised by the European Parliament, which we do elect part of (I believe a disproportionately large part). In the UK we have had two problems with this: a lack of engagement with Euro elections; many of our MEPs belong to a party whose stated objective is to being down the institution in which they sit, so they don't effectively represent us. But we voted them in, so we can't bleat too much about the UK not getting enough of a voice, surely? Particularly in fisheries, where the voting record of the UKIP MEPs and the attendance record our representative on the committee (one N Farage) was pitiful. (See http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/farage%E2%80%99s-voting-record-fishing-%E2%80%98makes-mockery%E2%80%99-new-election-poster-20150408 for the Greenpeace take on this)

So it seems that this Fishery problem, at least recently, can be laid down at our door - for voting in crap (admittedly deliberately) MEPs. Democracy in action, surely?

Thanks for taking the time. I learnt a lot from your post, and agreed with more than I expected to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

no worries, you will see I also have a further post but at this time and with me being on nightshift I am putting my light out and closing my bunk curtain,

have a good day, I hope I have a good sleep.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"The EU GDP has stayed stagnant for the past 10 years. UK stand to lose 1% of GDP by leaving EU but stand to gain 10% growth in GDP by being free of restraint to trade with the rest of the world.

Neither the Remain camp or the exit camp produced the figures, but they are in this YouTube clip.

http://youtu.be/i9cLwoTkWes

Hope you can read subtitles, this guy talks fast"

It's OK, I speak (slow) Italian. I loved the bit where he said that once we have voted out of Europe UKIP disappears and no right wing party appears to take its place. So do all the racists just pack up and leave?

He was strong on the global economic potential - didn't say anything about how long it will take us to get there (and whether the world will look the same when we arrive).

Thanks for pointing me to it - first detailed pro-Brexit view from abroad I have seen.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"Surely you know MEPs are there as a facade of democracy and have as much power as the house of lords do in this country Its the faceless eu commission which make eu law not the mep's you do know that don't you, surely ? "

My understanding was that the Commissioners (unelected, but subject matter 'experts' nominated one from each country and not faceless - they are here: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019_en) propose the law (presumably taking suggestions from interested parties and lobbyists). These drafts are scutinised by the relevant Council (elected ministers of the relevant department) and Parliament (elected MEPs) mostly working through committees who make recommendations.

There are advantages to the fact that the Commissioners don't spend the last 18 months of a 5 year cycle positioning for re-election: they can actually get some work done.

And the safeguards seem robust: but only if your MEPs turn up for work and do a good job. This seems to have been the problem. We elected crap people, now we are throwing out the institution. In fact not many of us even bothered to elect them....

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"Try googling Daniel hannan oxford uni debating.He is a mep and gives a very convincing argument from someone on the inside"

I did, and he re-iterated the point about about the opportunity that Paolo Barnard made (and made a great joke about FIFA). But nothing about how long it would take to transition there, and whether we would have got there first within the EU and without the short and medium term damage.

For balance I watched Alex Salmond (who made loads more and better jokes) who brought up immigration, which was not mentioned by Hannan, or apparently the other proposers. Or by anyone so far on this thread. Which is great. But my impression while campaigning was that about 75% or more of Leave votes were from people who feared immigration.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

So is it true, you want Scotland to leave, go for joint independence and EU membership, or do you wish us to remain as one united Britain

Convince me "

Bit off topic, but the answer is stay, and one of the reasons is one of my reasons for staying in the EU. The larger the group of people being tied together the better in my opinion, for two reasons:

1. They have a common incentive to work together to improve things, and some things, notably climate change, can only be addressed effectively by very large groupings.

2. If they all go down (which is obviously not anyone's plan), they all go down together, and economic pain is mostly felt only relative to your neighbours.

You also have by far the best politicians. Even the Tories.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"The main jist of the official Leave campaign seemed focussed on uncontrolled immigration,"

I know - and yet here there is barely a peep. Weird innit?

TBH your post is preaching to the choir, and the point of this is to learn. But if you want to watch another famous lefty on Leave then Tony Benn was quite compelling as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Fingers crossed the MPs vote against any bill which repeals the European Communities Act and in doing so put all this to bed for good. "
.

Minority rule?.

Think it through

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

Yay! Caught up. Sorry to the (few) people who thought I was being patronising. That wasn't the intention. This was genuine homework and I have learnt a lot.

Not sure I can spare the time to take this further but I have learnt a lot, and thanks for people who took the time. And I would really appreciate carrying on conversations with the people who have engaged and who I have not pissed off. I would love to know how they respond to the questions I asked.

I am guessing that if I am right and 75% of the Leave vote was about immigration (which was my gut feel campaigning) I am not going to see it here. Who wants to shag a xenophobe?

Well, maybe another xenophobe, so don't be shy - if one comes out there may be more!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The main jist of the official Leave campaign seemed focussed on uncontrolled immigration,

I know - and yet here there is barely a peep. Weird innit?

He actually makes an appearance on the LEXIT film too... I guess if 75% of outers voted as such due to concerns about immigration - who were the remaining 25%.....the SWP don't have that many members..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay! Caught up. Sorry to the (few) people who thought I was being patronising. That wasn't the intention. This was genuine homework and I have learnt a lot.

I am guessing that if I am right and 75% of the Leave vote was about immigration (which was my gut feel campaigning) I am not going to see it here. Who wants to shag a xenophobe?

Well, maybe another xenophobe, so don't be shy - if one comes out there may be more!"

What has concerns over immigration got to do with being xenophobic? To understand why people wanted to leave, first look at the attitudes of people like yourself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And I guarantee they would take us back with open arms whenever it suited us and under our terms.

you actually believe that?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ok, my reasons for voting to leave are too numerous to list here, I could be writing for hours but I think that basically the Out vote won because of this :-

If you are unhappy, you want change. You probably don't even care what consequences that change can have. The unhappiness outweighs the risk. Unhappy people were given a chance to decide what to do and they voted to make a change. All that Remain could offer at best was more of the same, so the unhappy, disaffected or ignored, decided to make a stand and say enough! or revolt of a kind. CHANGE

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Didnt wanna be ruled from brussels the money they gave cud be better of spent here fishing rights the list cud be endless"

If you are concerned about fishing rights, are you aware that of the quota of fish we are allowed to catch, we actally sell 50% of our quota to other countries? To me that would suggest that we want the money more than the fish.

Were you also aware that Belgium Spain and France have historic access rights to our waters, so even after we leave the EU, their boats will still be able to come and fish here?

Farage was on the Common Fisheries Committee as an MEP. He only attended 1 out of 40 meetings. If he really cared about British fishing, I think he would have attended a lot more meetings.

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By *illbillMan
over a year ago

dublin

Your answer is probably in the question: we can't have formal "constitutional change" as we don't have a constitution.

"
point Is that people complain there is no democracy and blame eu when the lack of voice comes as a result of the constitutions structure. People vote for the likes Nigel farage and he abstains from votes and doesn't turn up etc. Europe is far from perfect...UK is far from perfect in fact I don't know where perfect is but to blame Europe for having no say isn't accurate. Our local mep who isn't perfect sends a quarterly publication to households outlining what's happening etc and she turns up at events etc..

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Try googling Daniel hannan oxford uni debating.He is a mep and gives a very convincing argument from someone on the inside"

Immigration was a big issue for a substantial portion of Leave voters. Daniel Hannan is also said that he still wants Free movement of Labour as can be seen here. I can’t therefore see how this will reduce immigration.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Hilarious,

Fantastic.

Exactly this. I think over many threads in these forums, both before and after the referendum, many people have discussed why they would vote or had voted in a certain way. Seeing as they are obviously keen on politics I find it hard to believe the OP has not read these threads and so already knows the answer to their question. This does seem more an exercise in showing their imagined superiority in intellect. I don't know why anyone is presenting their reasons and trying to justify them on this thread, to have it all picked apart and told they are wrong. Like little kids with the worst kind of smug and patronising school teacher.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"Ok, my reasons for voting to leave are too numerous to list here, I could be writing for hours but I think that basically the Out vote won because of this :-

Is this a revolt? Don't revolutionaries have a purpose? A plan?

There was (is?) no plan here.

From what you have said this is just a shout. With pretty random (and so far quite destabilising) consequences. There is at least as much chance in things getting worse for you as in them getting better.

I have seen elsewhere that people thought they had nothing to lose, so it would teach the middle classes a lesson if they buggered it up for them too. Is there any truth in that do you think?

Regardless of what these people think, life in Britain for even the least happy is easy compared with many places (Syria for a start). Things can get worse. Let's hope they don't, but the initial upswing of 35% in racist attacks doesn't bode well.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Try googling Daniel hannan oxford uni debating.He is a mep and gives a very convincing argument from someone on the inside

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending"

Confusing as that was the biggest selling point and it wasn't clearly presented to the electorate that negotiating trade deals with European countries would come with a stipulation which dismantled said selling point.

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By *funtimes.Man
over a year ago

Preston

could be comments like this that are causing huge divide. so its just UKIP that can only be racists.

I grew up in Oldham, huge labour area and have to say with out doubt 1 the most racist areas in the country, can you explain this please?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok, my reasons for voting to leave are too numerous to list here, I could be writing for hours but I think that basically the Out vote won because of this :-

Is this a revolt? Don't revolutionaries have a purpose? A plan?

There was (is?) no plan here.

I have seen elsewhere that people thought they had nothing to lose, so it would teach the middle classes a lesson if they buggered it up for them too. Is there any truth in that do you think?

are you taking the piss or just really thick?

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"It's OK, I speak (slow) Italian. I loved the bit where he said that once we have voted out of Europe UKIP disappears and no right wing party appears to take its place. So do all the racists just pack up and leave?

could be comments like this that are causing huge divide. so its just UKIP that can only be racists.

I grew up in Oldham, huge labour area and have to say with out doubt 1 the most racist areas in the country, can you explain this please?

I don't need to - you got my point. Just because UKIP loses it's raison d'etre doesn't mean the country won't have loads of racists. But that was what Paolo Barnard said. Such wishful thinking it beggars belief.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

are you taking the piss or just really thick?"

Neither - I was genuinely hoping for a reasoned response / explanation.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"...Our local mep..."

Do you have an MEP?

I think the way we arranged things over here may be part of the problem - I have 7 MEPS. Wouldn't even know which one to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

are you taking the piss or just really thick?

Neither - I was genuinely hoping for a reasoned response / explanation."

and I gave you one yet you questioned/put down the reasons I gave. I wasn't saying they were right or wrong, just an opinion. As someone said earlier, your arrogance, and I would add stupidity, are beyond belief, so I will leave this thread there. Enjoy

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

it wasn't clearly presented to the electorate that negotiating trade deals with European countries would come with a stipulation which dismantled said selling point.

Well, it depends on the type of deal being negotiated. And as there wasn't a plan it was difficult to encounter it. Whenever said "We can be like Norway" the response came pretty quickly that that this implied the four freedoms. But the leave politicians never said we would try to be like Norway. Remember the bit in the Wembley debate when Sadiq Khan was sying "But what is the plan? A slogan is not a plan?". If you don't tell people what your plan is they can't criticise it. And the electorate seemed pretty unconcerned that there wasn't a plan. Looks like Gove and BoJo will never agree on a plan.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

"I think over many threads in these forums, both before and after the referendum, many people have discussed why they would vote or had voted in a certain way."

Really? I thought they all degraded into a slanging match really quickly, which this has not (quite) done yet. I have been pointed to loads of interesting material that was new to me.

The other threads (many of which I read) were just unsubstantiated 'facts' being lobbed over the wall by both sides, often repetitively.

Again I am sorry if you are offended. I did say upfront that I would challenge, but I don't think I have been patronising. I have tried not to be.

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

...yet you questioned/put down the reasons I gave. I wasn't saying they were right or wrong, just an opinion. As someone said earlier, your arrogance, and I would add stupidity, are beyond belief, so I will leave this thread there. Enjoy"

I did start off by saying I was hoping people would "answer my questions (which will hopefully be searching and challenging, but not rude or offensive)"

Obviously you changed you mind about doing that. Thanks for your input anyway - it was enlightening.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay! I am guessing that if I am right and 75% of the Leave vote was about immigration (which was my gut feel campaigning) I am not going to see it here. Who wants to shag a xenophobe?

YES you are right, you are right in the fact YOU are guessing

either that or the 75% are down South and the 25% are fully up in Scotland because every Scot I have spoken to has said the main reason they voted Leave was due to a Brussels take over

I am Guessing you never ventured up to Scotland to campaign and you never spoke to the Scots.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is this a revolt? Don't revolutionaries have a purpose? A plan?

There was (is?) no plan here.

of course there is a bloody plan, The Government has a contingency plan, same as the Bank of England does and Osborne does, they may appear idiots but they are not.

Cameron is being used as a scape goat, this is a front and with this front it has given them time for article 50.

Do you really think they are going to open up to the public which in turn will give EU advanced notice of what is going on, come on, you are smarter than that, all good things come to those who wait.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Is this a revolt? Don't revolutionaries have a purpose? A plan?

There was (is?) no plan here.

of course there is a bloody plan, The Government has a contingency plan, same as the Bank of England does and Osborne does, they may appear idiots but they are not.

Cameron is being used as a scape goat, this is a front and with this front it has given them time for article 50.

Do you really think they are going to open up to the public which in turn will give EU advanced notice of what is going on, come on, you are smarter than that, all good things come to those who wait."

What's the plan then? Looks like chaos from where I'm sat

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By *hamelessAndHussy OP Couple
over a year ago

Uckfield

OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature!

I'm out, but not without having had some benefit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature!

I'm out, but not without having had some benefit."

you never did say where your campaign was, and how do you expect people to communicate with you when you block people from mailing you

think about it

before you go

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature!

I'm out, but not without having had some benefit."

This is the problem - Brexoteers are still crowing and laughing at getting one up on Johnnie Foreigner without actually facing the reality that now confronts us

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature!

I'm out, but not without having had some benefit.

This is the problem - Brexoteers are still crowing and laughing at getting one up on Johnnie Foreigner without actually facing the reality that now confronts us"

come on Joe; you need to change your profile

you need to swap the word intelligent to pessimist

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"OK, all that shit I said about this thread not degrading into a free for all? May have been premature!

I'm out, but not without having had some benefit.

This is the problem - Brexoteers are still crowing and laughing at getting one up on Johnnie Foreigner without actually facing the reality that now confronts us

come on Joe; you need to change your profile

you need to swap the word intelligent to pessimist

Try "realist"... Now you have the result you wanted you would do better to help think about a solution than crow and laugh

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Try "realist"... Now you have the result you wanted you would do better to help think about a solution than crow and laugh

There already is a solution Joe, you are just so blind you don't see it

try having some faith in the British Government if not the people of Britain

it appears you have given up and are begging the EU for forgiveness already before talks begin, think this is the last reply I make to you Joe, as I feel you are a disappointment.

sad to say.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Try "realist"... Now you have the result you wanted you would do better to help think about a solution than crow and laugh

There already is a solution Joe, you are just so blind you don't see it

try having some faith in the British Government if not the people of Britain

it appears you have given up and are begging the EU for forgiveness already before talks begin, think this is the last reply I make to you Joe, as I feel you are a disappointment.

sad to say.

I am a disappointment? LOL

What government? I think we're looking for leaders atm, and ones with ideas might be helpful...

Just sayin'

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