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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative?" Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends | |||
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" Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative?" First… Should there be a referendum on rejoining subject to EU agreeing terms and acceptance if we voted to rejoin | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends " The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..  | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here.. "And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined. | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined. "That isn’t what the EU has stated. Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite. Heads will melt | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people, and had it concentrated on the former then Brexit wouldn’t have happened." The EU (and previously the EEC) was never just about trade. ‘Ever closer Union’ was in the Treaty of Rome, 1957. | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt "I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do. | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people..." Why not? On what basis? That's a trade bloc, not a union. | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people... Why not? On what basis? That's a trade bloc, not a union." Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? I think we’ve tried it that way… | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people... Why not? On what basis? That's a trade bloc, not a union. Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? I think we’ve tried it that way…" When freedom of movement began, there were grumbles and complaints about Polish builders and so on moving to the UK. By the time we left, those numbers had dramatically reduced - why? Because Poland’s economy had grown exponentially and the country was thriving and Polish people didn’t need to work abroad - they had ample opportunities and employment at home. | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people... Why not? On what basis? That's a trade bloc, not a union. Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? I think we’ve tried it that way… When freedom of movement began, there were grumbles and complaints about Polish builders and so on moving to the UK. By the time we left, those numbers had dramatically reduced - why? Because Poland’s economy had grown exponentially and the country was thriving and Polish people didn’t need to work abroad - they had ample opportunities and employment at home. " Now tell us why their economy grew exponentially | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people, and had it concentrated on the former then Brexit wouldn’t have happened." I agree freedom of movement as a cornerstone of EU policy was a bad thing for the UK, and fed into Brexit. But the situation isn't any better post-Brexit is it? | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people... Why not? On what basis? That's a trade bloc, not a union. Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? I think we’ve tried it that way… When freedom of movement began, there were grumbles and complaints about Polish builders and so on moving to the UK. By the time we left, those numbers had dramatically reduced - why? Because Poland’s economy had grown exponentially and the country was thriving and Polish people didn’t need to work abroad - they had ample opportunities and employment at home. Now tell us why their economy grew exponentially " Because nations in the EU have a great many benefits of those outside, naturally. Our economy also grew in the same time period  | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people... Why not? On what basis? That's a trade bloc, not a union. Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? I think we’ve tried it that way… When freedom of movement began, there were grumbles and complaints about Polish builders and so on moving to the UK. By the time we left, those numbers had dramatically reduced - why? Because Poland’s economy had grown exponentially and the country was thriving and Polish people didn’t need to work abroad - they had ample opportunities and employment at home. Now tell us why their economy grew exponentially Because nations in the EU have a great many benefits of those outside, naturally. Our economy also grew in the same time period "Did our economy really grow in the same time period? Also, did all the other economies in the EU grow during that time period? | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people... Why not? On what basis? That's a trade bloc, not a union. Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? I think we’ve tried it that way… When freedom of movement began, there were grumbles and complaints about Polish builders and so on moving to the UK. By the time we left, those numbers had dramatically reduced - why? Because Poland’s economy had grown exponentially and the country was thriving and Polish people didn’t need to work abroad - they had ample opportunities and employment at home. Now tell us why their economy grew exponentially Because nations in the EU have a great many benefits of those outside, naturally. Our economy also grew in the same time period
Did our economy really grow in the same time period?
Also, did all the other economies in the EU grow during that time period?"If I remember correctly, there was a television series in the 1980's called "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet" which was about UK workers who couldn't find work in Britain taking advantage of membership of what was then, the EEC, to move to Germany to find work. The German economy was strong and money was good.. Is that so different from what Polish workers and others did by moving to the UK or other countries within the Union? | |||
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"The EU should be about trade, not freedom of movement of people... Why not? On what basis? That's a trade bloc, not a union. Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? I think we’ve tried it that way… When freedom of movement began, there were grumbles and complaints about Polish builders and so on moving to the UK. By the time we left, those numbers had dramatically reduced - why? Because Poland’s economy had grown exponentially and the country was thriving and Polish people didn’t need to work abroad - they had ample opportunities and employment at home. Now tell us why their economy grew exponentially Because nations in the EU have a great many benefits of those outside, naturally. Our economy also grew in the same time period
Did our economy really grow in the same time period?
Also, did all the other economies in the EU grow during that time period?"Our economy grew 103% during EU membership. And no EU nation has seen its overall economy shrink during eu membership - fluctuation for course (2008 being the obvious example), but over the multi-decade timelines of respective memberships, every single country has achieved net economic expansion | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do. "You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe... | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
"They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently? | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase:
“The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.”
What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently?"Yes, I read it differently because you’re presenting the French position as the EU position. You do understand what the EU member states are actually debating here? | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase:
“The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.”
What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently?
Yes, I read it differently because you’re presenting the French position as the EU position.
You do understand what the EU member states are actually debating here?"I’m presenting the French position as a very strong voice within the EU. Do you dispute that? | |||
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" And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined. " | |||
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" Our economy grew 103% during EU membership. " Over such a long period of time, every economy around the world grew irrespective of whether they were in the EU. Why don't we look at the last couple of decades and see how the EU countries did compared to the rest of the world? | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase:
“The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.”
What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently?
Yes, I read it differently because you’re presenting the French position as the EU position.
You do understand what the EU member states are actually debating here?
I’m presenting the French position as a very strong voice within the EU. Do you dispute that?
"You can say you were wrong, or I'm correct if that would make it easier
I'm not going around the houses on this, just don't pin all your rejoin hopes on this and understand it for what it is. EU member states are debating what “European” means for "Made in Europe" an whether it should be confined to the EU27 or extended to trusted partners outside the EU.
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase:
“The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.”
What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently?
Yes, I read it differently because you’re presenting the French position as the EU position.
You do understand what the EU member states are actually debating here?
I’m presenting the French position as a very strong voice within the EU. Do you dispute that?
You can say you were wrong, or I'm correct if that would make it easier
I'm not going around the houses on this, just don't pin all your rejoin hopes on this and understand it for what it is. EU member states are debating what “European” means for "Made in Europe" an whether it should be confined to the EU27 or extended to trusted partners outside the EU.
"They will be debating which, if any, of the three projected tiers nations will be placed in. With the EU27 of course being the top tier, trusted nations (such as single market or customs union only£ having some access (if they produce items which are unique or hard to source elsewhere) or external nations whose involvement might be subject to specific quotas or restrictions and denials. Burnham wants the U.K. to be included as a trusted nation and will lobby hard for it. Given that tier will likely be for nations like Norway and Switzerland, who have access to the single market and/or customs union, and in the Schengen zone that may be difficult and ultimately refused. But of course, you knew that already | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase:
“The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.”
What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently?
Yes, I read it differently because you’re presenting the French position as the EU position.
You do understand what the EU member states are actually debating here?
I’m presenting the French position as a very strong voice within the EU. Do you dispute that?
You can say you were wrong, or I'm correct if that would make it easier
I'm not going around the houses on this, just don't pin all your rejoin hopes on this and understand it for what it is. EU member states are debating what “European” means for "Made in Europe" an whether it should be confined to the EU27 or extended to trusted partners outside the EU.
They will be debating which, if any, of the three projected tiers nations will be placed in. With the EU27 of course being the top tier, trusted nations (such as single market or customs union only£ having some access (if they produce items which are unique or hard to source elsewhere) or external nations whose involvement might be subject to specific quotas or restrictions and denials. Burnham wants the U.K. to be included as a trusted nation and will lobby hard for it. Given that tier will likely be for nations like Norway and Switzerland, who have access to the single market and/or customs union, and in the Schengen zone that may be difficult and ultimately refused.
But of course, you knew that already "I'm pleased I was able to help you, we have been on quite the journey starting with “the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like”, to your more nuanced position now. | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase:
“The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.”
What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently?
Yes, I read it differently because you’re presenting the French position as the EU position.
You do understand what the EU member states are actually debating here?
I’m presenting the French position as a very strong voice within the EU. Do you dispute that?
You can say you were wrong, or I'm correct if that would make it easier
I'm not going around the houses on this, just don't pin all your rejoin hopes on this and understand it for what it is. EU member states are debating what “European” means for "Made in Europe" an whether it should be confined to the EU27 or extended to trusted partners outside the EU.
They will be debating which, if any, of the three projected tiers nations will be placed in. With the EU27 of course being the top tier, trusted nations (such as single market or customs union only£ having some access (if they produce items which are unique or hard to source elsewhere) or external nations whose involvement might be subject to specific quotas or restrictions and denials. Burnham wants the U.K. to be included as a trusted nation and will lobby hard for it. Given that tier will likely be for nations like Norway and Switzerland, who have access to the single market and/or customs union, and in the Schengen zone that may be difficult and ultimately refused.
But of course, you knew that already
I'm pleased I was able to help you, we have been on quite the journey starting with “the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like”, to your more nuanced position now. "Oh I’m under no illusion, I predict we will be an external country - not a trusted member, and we literally can’t be a full member of the scheme - thanks to Brexit. That’s not nuanced. I’m certain we’ll be tier 3 at best. | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase:
“The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.”
What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently?
Yes, I read it differently because you’re presenting the French position as the EU position.
You do understand what the EU member states are actually debating here?
I’m presenting the French position as a very strong voice within the EU. Do you dispute that?
You can say you were wrong, or I'm correct if that would make it easier
I'm not going around the houses on this, just don't pin all your rejoin hopes on this and understand it for what it is. EU member states are debating what “European” means for "Made in Europe" an whether it should be confined to the EU27 or extended to trusted partners outside the EU.
They will be debating which, if any, of the three projected tiers nations will be placed in. With the EU27 of course being the top tier, trusted nations (such as single market or customs union only£ having some access (if they produce items which are unique or hard to source elsewhere) or external nations whose involvement might be subject to specific quotas or restrictions and denials. Burnham wants the U.K. to be included as a trusted nation and will lobby hard for it. Given that tier will likely be for nations like Norway and Switzerland, who have access to the single market and/or customs union, and in the Schengen zone that may be difficult and ultimately refused.
But of course, you knew that already
I'm pleased I was able to help you, we have been on quite the journey starting with “the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like”, to your more nuanced position now.
Oh I’m under no illusion, I predict we will be an external country - not a trusted member, and we literally can’t be a full member of the scheme - thanks to Brexit.
That’s not nuanced. I’m certain we’ll be tier 3 at best. "Try looking at Germany, Spain and Poland’s positions. It might help you sleep at night.. 
You have gone from telling me what “the EU have stated quite clearly” to being “certain” about the outcome of negotiations in which Germany wants a wider “Made with Europe” approach, Spain is proposing trusted partners in its second tier, and Poland says it’s too early to say whether the UK will be in or out along with others such as Switzerland etc. Your choice hang onto the French or it is still being debated | |||
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" Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? " You're massively increasing the scope of free movement, to access to health, education, benefits, etc. You can separate all of these out. You're position is fine, but your issue is not simply with free movement of people. | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here..
And the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like - European tax payers funding European projects, and the UK chose to walk away from it - so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.
That isn’t what the EU has stated.
Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included, it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.
Heads will melt
I didn’t claim the single market was a prerequisite. But it is what we should do. And it is what we will do.
You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”.
You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe...
They are conjoined, clearly - demonstrated by the phrase:
“The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.”
What do you think is being said there re: ‘Made in Europe’ - because to me, it’s clear. We can trade, we can have individual agreements, but the U.K. is not part of this - do you somehow read it differently?
Yes, I read it differently because you’re presenting the French position as the EU position.
You do understand what the EU member states are actually debating here?
I’m presenting the French position as a very strong voice within the EU. Do you dispute that?
You can say you were wrong, or I'm correct if that would make it easier
I'm not going around the houses on this, just don't pin all your rejoin hopes on this and understand it for what it is. EU member states are debating what “European” means for "Made in Europe" an whether it should be confined to the EU27 or extended to trusted partners outside the EU.
They will be debating which, if any, of the three projected tiers nations will be placed in. With the EU27 of course being the top tier, trusted nations (such as single market or customs union only£ having some access (if they produce items which are unique or hard to source elsewhere) or external nations whose involvement might be subject to specific quotas or restrictions and denials. Burnham wants the U.K. to be included as a trusted nation and will lobby hard for it. Given that tier will likely be for nations like Norway and Switzerland, who have access to the single market and/or customs union, and in the Schengen zone that may be difficult and ultimately refused.
But of course, you knew that already
I'm pleased I was able to help you, we have been on quite the journey starting with “the EU have stated quite clearly what participation will look like”, to your more nuanced position now.
Oh I’m under no illusion, I predict we will be an external country - not a trusted member, and we literally can’t be a full member of the scheme - thanks to Brexit.
That’s not nuanced. I’m certain we’ll be tier 3 at best.
Try looking at Germany, Spain and Poland’s positions. It might help you sleep at night..
You have gone from telling me what “the EU have stated quite clearly” to being “certain” about the outcome of negotiations in which Germany wants a wider “Made with Europe” approach, Spain is proposing trusted partners in its second tier, and Poland says it’s too early to say whether the UK will be in or out along with others such as Switzerland etc. Your choice hang onto the French or it is still being debated "You seem to think that I’ve been inconsistent, which is incorrect. We’ll find out in/after 2027 whether I was right or not. As things stand, we would slot in as an external country - it’s the only logical place for us thanks to our collective 2016 idiocy. Of course when we join the SM/CU that could change. | |||
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" Because freedom of movement of people, when you factor in differences in wages, standards of living, benefits, healthcare etc, means not all countries can offer the same and yet all citizens should be able to move anywhere and access everything? You're massively increasing the scope of free movement, to access to health, education, benefits, etc. You can separate all of these out. You're position is fine, but your issue is not simply with free movement of people. " Peopel also forget, or maybe didn’t realise, that freedom of movement always came with legal limitations and requirements for the individual. | |||
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" You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe... " Well since you need to follow all the regulations to be part of the single market ( which uk manufacturers have to do to export anything into the EU) it made no sense not to.. but that is where Brexit is conjoined | |||
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" You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe... Well since you need to follow all the regulations to be part of the single market ( which uk manufacturers have to do to export anything into the EU) it made no sense not to.. but that is where Brexit is conjoined " Basically… Made FOR Europe, and Made IN Europe are 2 separate things.. | |||
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" You said Brexit and participation were “conjoined”. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is "your" preference, not a prerequisite for UK participation in Made in Europe... Well since you need to follow all the regulations to be part of the single market ( which uk manufacturers have to do to export anything into the EU) it made no sense not to.. but that is where Brexit is conjoined " UK participating in Made in Europe does not depend on rejoining the Single Market, the terms on which non EU countries might participate are what member states are debating. If you’re talking about EU regulatory compliance, that’s a requirement to the relevant product, service or sector. It isn’t the same as Single Market membership. The UK could qualify for Made in Europe in agreed sectors or products without having Single Market membership. One is not dependant on the other, unless the members states decide to qualify a country needs to be a member state, which has not been agreed as a requirement. France has the most narrow view, but that is par for the course. Germany are rather inclusive. | |||
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" UK participating in Made in Europe does not depend on rejoining the Single Market, the terms on which non EU countries might participate are what member states are debating." Nobody has said it does depend on it. Literally nobody. - I said that we need to make amends for the collective idiocy we displayed in 2016, and joining the SM would go some way to doing that But SM membership would be highly likely to place us in a higher ‘tier’ with EU schemes like this. That is of course self evident. | |||
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" UK participating in Made in Europe does not depend on rejoining the Single Market, the terms on which non EU countries might participate are what member states are debating. Nobody has said it does depend on it. Literally nobody. - I said that we need to make amends for the collective idiocy we displayed in 2016, and joining the SM would go some way to doing that But SM membership would be highly likely to place us in a higher ‘tier’ with EU schemes like this. That is of course self evident. " You have toned it down and changed lanes a few times, but we are on the same road now | |||
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" UK participating in Made in Europe does not depend on rejoining the Single Market, the terms on which non EU countries might participate are what member states are debating. Nobody has said it does depend on it. Literally nobody. - I said that we need to make amends for the collective idiocy we displayed in 2016, and joining the SM would go some way to doing that But SM membership would be highly likely to place us in a higher ‘tier’ with EU schemes like this. That is of course self evident. You have toned it down and changed lanes a few times, but we are on the same road now "Can you point out where anyone said that Made in Europe is dependant upon single market membership? | |||
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" UK participating in Made in Europe does not depend on rejoining the Single Market, the terms on which non EU countries might participate are what member states are debating. Nobody has said it does depend on it. Literally nobody. - I said that we need to make amends for the collective idiocy we displayed in 2016, and joining the SM would go some way to doing that But SM membership would be highly likely to place us in a higher ‘tier’ with EU schemes like this. That is of course self evident. You have toned it down and changed lanes a few times, but we are on the same road now
Can you point out where anyone said that Made in Europe is dependant upon single market membership? "I have, several times. That’s why I left it alone in my last post... For clarity, closer alignment with the EU, I would see as a huge benefit to the UK and something I would support. I’m simply not getting hung up on France’s expected position or turning this into another rejoin discussion when what EU member states are "actually debating" is the definition of “European” for Made in Europe. | |||
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" Can you point out where anyone said that Made in Europe is dependant upon single market membership? I have, several times. That’s why I left it alone in my last post... " No. No, you haven’t. Not once. And the reason why? It’s because nobody has made that claim. | |||
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" Can you point out where anyone said that Made in Europe is dependant upon single market membership? I have, several times. That’s why I left it alone in my last post... No. No, you haven’t. Not once. And the reason why? It’s because nobody has made that claim. " This might help you. Is honey produced in the UK, European? | |||
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"At a meeting of EU industry ministers in Brussels on Thursday, France pushed for a narrow definition, starting with the EU27. “European taxpayers’ money should support [European] workers and European factories,” the French industry minister, Sébastien Martin, told reporters. Asked about the UK, he said: “The United Kingdom made a choice a few years ago to leave the European Union. “That doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss things or that we don’t trade, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be agreements in certain sectors, but fundamentally there are those who have chosen the European project and those who have decided to leave.” Should the UK be part of the EU "Made in Europe" initiative? Yes. The U.K should rejoin the single market as a minimum, and have as much cooperation with our European friends and allies as possible. The Brexit project failed. It’s time to accept it and make amends The question is whether the UK should be included in the Made in Europe initiative. Brexit and this aren’t dependent on each other... We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market, which is why there is disagreement within the EU (shock) over how “European” should be defined. This is going to melt a few minds on here.. "I agree we aren't in the eu so no nothing to do with us | |||
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" Can you point out where anyone said that Made in Europe is dependant upon single market membership? I have, several times. That’s why I left it alone in my last post... No. No, you haven’t. Not once. And the reason why? It’s because nobody has made that claim. This might help you. Is honey produced in the UK, European? " I’d like you to answer my question first “Can you point out where anyone said that Made in Europe is dependant upon single market membership?” And if you could quote the person saying it, that’d be awesome, thanks. | |||
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" Can you point out where anyone said that Made in Europe is dependant upon single market membership? I have, several times. That’s why I left it alone in my last post... No. No, you haven’t. Not once. And the reason why? It’s because nobody has made that claim. This might help you. Is honey produced in the UK, European? I’d like you to answer my question first “Can you point out where anyone said that Made in Europe is dependant upon single market membership?” And if you could quote the person saying it, that’d be awesome, thanks. " You have changed your stance and language "considerably" throughout this, so I’ve taken some time to show you how this actually played out. You originally said: “The U.K should rejoin the Single Market as a minimum…” I responded: “We could participate through reciprocal or sector specific agreements without having to rejoin the Single Market…” You said: “the UK chose to walk away from it, so yes, Brexit and this are conjoined.” I replied: “Brexit means we don’t have an automatic right to be included; it doesn’t also mean we need to rejoin the Single Market as a prerequisite.” You said: “I didn’t claim the Single Market was a prerequisite.” I replied: “You said Brexit and participation were ‘conjoined’. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is your preference, not a prerequisite…” Honey produced in the UK, is it European? | |||
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"’. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is your preference, not a prerequisite…” " I do agree on this point. But I never claimed otherwise, which you seem insistent that I did. And the quotes you’ve just given demonstrate that as I said, I never claimed that single market membership was a prerequisite. So why would you think I said otherwise? And Honey produced *wholly* in the UK is not EU honey, of course. | |||
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"’. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is your preference, not a prerequisite…” I do agree on this point. But I never claimed otherwise, which you seem insistent that I did. And the quotes you’ve just given demonstrate that as I said, I never claimed that single market membership was a prerequisite. So why would you think I said otherwise? And Honey produced *wholly* in the UK is not EU honey, of course. " I didn’t say that you claimed it was a prerequisite, I said exactly what I have just quoted. You described Brexit and participation as “conjoined”, and I explained why they aren’t dependent on each other. We now agree on that, so I’m happy to leave it there. On the same note as the above: I didn’t ask whether UK honey was “EU honey”. I asked whether honey produced in the UK is European. | |||
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"’. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is your preference, not a prerequisite…” I do agree on this point. But I never claimed otherwise, which you seem insistent that I did. And the quotes you’ve just given demonstrate that as I said, I never claimed that single market membership was a prerequisite. So why would you think I said otherwise? And Honey produced *wholly* in the UK is not EU honey, of course. I didn’t say that you claimed it was a prerequisite, I said exactly what I have just quoted. You described Brexit and participation as “conjoined”, and I explained why they aren’t dependent on each other. We now agree on that, so I’m happy to leave it there. On the same note as the above: I didn’t ask whether UK honey was “EU honey”. I asked whether honey produced in the UK is European. " ‘European’ is not a legal term in produce production. That why I specified ‘EU’ Foodstuffs require a country of origin, not a region. Some may be labelled as ‘EU’ or ‘Non EU’ if they are blended (as honey often is, most British honey is exported to the EU, then blended with EU honey and shipped back to the U.K.). ‘European’ honey is legally not a thing | |||
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"’. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is your preference, not a prerequisite…” I do agree on this point. But I never claimed otherwise, which you seem insistent that I did. And the quotes you’ve just given demonstrate that as I said, I never claimed that single market membership was a prerequisite. So why would you think I said otherwise? And Honey produced *wholly* in the UK is not EU honey, of course. I didn’t say that you claimed it was a prerequisite, I said exactly what I have just quoted. You described Brexit and participation as “conjoined”, and I explained why they aren’t dependent on each other. We now agree on that, so I’m happy to leave it there. On the same note as the above: I didn’t ask whether UK honey was “EU honey”. I asked whether honey produced in the UK is European. ‘European’ is not a legal term in produce production. That why I specified ‘EU’ Foodstuffs require a country of origin, not a region. Some may be labelled as ‘EU’ or ‘Non EU’ if they are blended (as honey often is, most British honey is exported to the EU, then blended with EU honey and shipped back to the U.K.). ‘European’ honey is legally not a thing " Okay.. The UK is in Europe, but not the EU. So something made in the UK can obviously be European without being EU-made. That is what they are debating, what qualifies as “Made in Europe”. France wants EU27, Germany and others want a wider definition including trusted partners such as the UK. If the UK qualifies, our manufacturers should benefit without us being in the single market. Win - Win. | |||
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"’. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is your preference, not a prerequisite…” I do agree on this point. But I never claimed otherwise, which you seem insistent that I did. And the quotes you’ve just given demonstrate that as I said, I never claimed that single market membership was a prerequisite. So why would you think I said otherwise? And Honey produced *wholly* in the UK is not EU honey, of course. I didn’t say that you claimed it was a prerequisite, I said exactly what I have just quoted. You described Brexit and participation as “conjoined”, and I explained why they aren’t dependent on each other. We now agree on that, so I’m happy to leave it there. On the same note as the above: I didn’t ask whether UK honey was “EU honey”. I asked whether honey produced in the UK is European. ‘European’ is not a legal term in produce production. That why I specified ‘EU’ Foodstuffs require a country of origin, not a region. Some may be labelled as ‘EU’ or ‘Non EU’ if they are blended (as honey often is, most British honey is exported to the EU, then blended with EU honey and shipped back to the U.K.). ‘European’ honey is legally not a thing Okay.. The UK is in Europe, but not the EU. So something made in the UK can obviously be European without being EU-made. That is what they are debating, what qualifies as “Made in Europe”. France wants EU27, Germany and others want a wider definition including trusted partners such as the UK. If the UK qualifies, our manufacturers should benefit without us being in the single market. Win - Win." Something legally can’t be European without being EU made. If I label a product as ‘European’ then is it British? Is it Albanian? What is it? It might as well say ‘earth made’ since I can’t trace its origins. That why we have these legally defined labels. Thats an important thing when debating the EU and trade/partnerships - Standard recognition. And I’m aware of what they are debating - France haven’t ruled out trusted partners. Nobody has - but the UK can’t accept to be an equal part in this club to the EU27 (that much is obvious), or indeed the non-EH Schengen states who are in the customs union and single market (this was spelled out plainly in 2016). Which leaves us with a third kind of relationship, which Spain haven’t ruled suggested be ‘trusted’ - and that’s not upon the U.K. to request, but for the EU to offer - which of course may not happen. As France have warned. Were we a single market member we’d already be feeling the benefits of such. An actual win/win. | |||
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"’. You agree on the point I was making. Rejoining the Single Market is your preference, not a prerequisite…” I do agree on this point. But I never claimed otherwise, which you seem insistent that I did. And the quotes you’ve just given demonstrate that as I said, I never claimed that single market membership was a prerequisite. So why would you think I said otherwise? And Honey produced *wholly* in the UK is not EU honey, of course. I didn’t say that you claimed it was a prerequisite, I said exactly what I have just quoted. You described Brexit and participation as “conjoined”, and I explained why they aren’t dependent on each other. We now agree on that, so I’m happy to leave it there. On the same note as the above: I didn’t ask whether UK honey was “EU honey”. I asked whether honey produced in the UK is European. ‘European’ is not a legal term in produce production. That why I specified ‘EU’ Foodstuffs require a country of origin, not a region. Some may be labelled as ‘EU’ or ‘Non EU’ if they are blended (as honey often is, most British honey is exported to the EU, then blended with EU honey and shipped back to the U.K.). ‘European’ honey is legally not a thing Okay.. The UK is in Europe, but not the EU. So something made in the UK can obviously be European without being EU-made. That is what they are debating, what qualifies as “Made in Europe”. France wants EU27, Germany and others want a wider definition including trusted partners such as the UK. If the UK qualifies, our manufacturers should benefit without us being in the single market. Win - Win. Something legally can’t be European without being EU made. If I label a product as ‘European’ then is it British? Is it Albanian? What is it? It might as well say ‘earth made’ since I can’t trace its origins. That why we have these legally defined labels. Thats an important thing when debating the EU and trade/partnerships - Standard recognition. And I’m aware of what they are debating - France haven’t ruled out trusted partners. Nobody has - but the UK can’t accept to be an equal part in this club to the EU27 (that much is obvious), or indeed the non-EH Schengen states who are in the customs union and single market (this was spelled out plainly in 2016). Which leaves us with a third kind of relationship, which Spain haven’t ruled suggested be ‘trusted’ - and that’s not upon the U.K. to request, but for the EU to offer - which of course may not happen. As France have warned. Were we a single market member we’d already be feeling the benefits of such. An actual win/win. " We are not in the EU so there is no benefit in keep suggesting we would be better off inside, it is pointless. We are embedded into their procurement activities today and it could prove to be as economically painful for them as well as us to exclude the UK from a made in Europe scheme. A preferred partner arrangement is therefore a potentially mutually beneficial outcome. | |||
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" We are not in the EU so there is no benefit in keep suggesting we would be better off inside, it is pointless. " We would be economically better off in the single market, according to basically every economist in the world. And the single market does not equal the EU - I’m sure you know that though. | |||
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" We are not in the EU so there is no benefit in keep suggesting we would be better off inside, it is pointless. We would be economically better off in the single market, according to basically every economist in the world. And the single market does not equal the EU - I’m sure you know that though. "This is where you are losing sight of the outcome. Banging the drum of hindsight isn't going to change anything here, but as said excluding the UK and not making us a preferred supplier is not in anyones interest. | |||
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"There is a danger to the EU by excluding the UK, generally, from European markets. Let's say that the UK cannot easily compete with the EU car manufacturers, then loses manufacturing capability as a result. Suddenly, the UK has no reason to exclude (through tariffs and regulation) China from its car market, so opens those floodgates. As a result, the second biggest car market in Europe disappears overnight, buying most of their cars from elsewhere. Something similar happened in Australia, which has led to serious declines in established motor vehicle company sales, as the government are not incentivised to keep China out. This extends beyond the automotive market." | |||
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"There is a danger to the EU by excluding the UK, generally, from European markets. Let's say that the UK cannot easily compete with the EU car manufacturers, then loses manufacturing capability as a result. Suddenly, the UK has no reason to exclude (through tariffs and regulation) China from its car market, so opens those floodgates. As a result, the second biggest car market in Europe disappears overnight, buying most of their cars from elsewhere. Something similar happened in Australia, which has led to serious declines in established motor vehicle company sales, as the government are not incentivised to keep China out. This extends beyond the automotive market." Focussing on automotives, the U.K doesn’t exclude Chinese cars through tariffs though - which is why they have already taken a strong hold in the U.K. market in the past year. However, crucially, the premium European brands have retained similar sales figures in the UK, while companies like Kia and Tesla have dropped off | |||
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" We are not in the EU so there is no benefit in keep suggesting we would be better off inside, it is pointless. We would be economically better off in the single market, according to basically every economist in the world. And the single market does not equal the EU - I’m sure you know that though.
This is where you are losing sight of the outcome. Banging the drum of hindsight isn't going to change anything here, but as said excluding the UK and not making us a preferred supplier is not in anyones interest."There’s no hindsight here at all. We will rejoin the single market. I’d suggest it’s actually inevitable - the only question is one of time. | |||
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"There is a danger to the EU by excluding the UK, generally, from European markets. Let's say that the UK cannot easily compete with the EU car manufacturers, then loses manufacturing capability as a result. Suddenly, the UK has no reason to exclude (through tariffs and regulation) China from its car market, so opens those floodgates. As a result, the second biggest car market in Europe disappears overnight, buying most of their cars from elsewhere. Something similar happened in Australia, which has led to serious declines in established motor vehicle company sales, as the government are not incentivised to keep China out. This extends beyond the automotive market. Focussing on automotives, the U.K doesn’t exclude Chinese cars through tariffs though - which is why they have already taken a strong hold in the U.K. market in the past year. However, crucially, the premium European brands have retained similar sales figures in the UK, while companies like Kia and Tesla have dropped off " https://www.ft.com/content/5453be91-7bd9-4097-9e83-870354d3a248?syn-25a6b1a6=1 Exactly. The EU wants Britain to adopt measures like tariffs, with membership of the Made in Europe club as a bargaining chip. | |||
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"There is a danger to the EU by excluding the UK, generally, from European markets. Let's say that the UK cannot easily compete with the EU car manufacturers, then loses manufacturing capability as a result. Suddenly, the UK has no reason to exclude (through tariffs and regulation) China from its car market, so opens those floodgates. As a result, the second biggest car market in Europe disappears overnight, buying most of their cars from elsewhere. Something similar happened in Australia, which has led to serious declines in established motor vehicle company sales, as the government are not incentivised to keep China out. This extends beyond the automotive market. Focussing on automotives, the U.K doesn’t exclude Chinese cars through tariffs though - which is why they have already taken a strong hold in the U.K. market in the past year. However, crucially, the premium European brands have retained similar sales figures in the UK, while companies like Kia and Tesla have dropped off https://www.ft.com/content/5453be91-7bd9-4097-9e83-870354d3a248?syn-25a6b1a6=1 Exactly. The EU wants Britain to adopt measures like tariffs, with membership of the Made in Europe club as a bargaining chip." Which is all fair bargaining, isn’t it? The only problem for the UK is that contrary to what some said in 2016, we need them more than they need us (generally speaking, not in all sectors). If premium European brands are not dropping off in the face of Chinese cars right now, there’s no need to panic on either side. | |||
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"There is a danger to the EU by excluding the UK, generally, from European markets. Let's say that the UK cannot easily compete with the EU car manufacturers, then loses manufacturing capability as a result. Suddenly, the UK has no reason to exclude (through tariffs and regulation) China from its car market, so opens those floodgates. As a result, the second biggest car market in Europe disappears overnight, buying most of their cars from elsewhere. Something similar happened in Australia, which has led to serious declines in established motor vehicle company sales, as the government are not incentivised to keep China out. This extends beyond the automotive market. Focussing on automotives, the U.K doesn’t exclude Chinese cars through tariffs though - which is why they have already taken a strong hold in the U.K. market in the past year. However, crucially, the premium European brands have retained similar sales figures in the UK, while companies like Kia and Tesla have dropped off https://www.ft.com/content/5453be91-7bd9-4097-9e83-870354d3a248?syn-25a6b1a6=1 Exactly. The EU wants Britain to adopt measures like tariffs, with membership of the Made in Europe club as a bargaining chip. Which is all fair bargaining, isn’t it? The only problem for the UK is that contrary to what some said in 2016, we need them more than they need us (generally speaking, not in all sectors). If premium European brands are not dropping off in the face of Chinese cars right now, there’s no need to panic on either side." Erm, that isn’t quite right. There is obviously more bargaining power in the bloc, but it isn’t all one way. Chinese automotive manufacturing is booming and European manufacturers are feeling the hit from it and there are no signs of it slowing. In this moving landscape the UK isn’t a small player, we are the EU’s largest vehicle export market. Chinese manufacturers taking an increasing share of our market isn’t exactly good news to the EU either. | |||
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"And there was me thinking it might have something to do with (a lot of) Europeans sending money to home, buying land / property and a robust immigration policy. Obviously not though, all down the the EU 🤔 " Poland’s GDP didn’t boom because of builders sending money home. It boomed because they joined the largest trade bloc in the world and their exports tripled. | |||
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"And there was me thinking it might have something to do with (a lot of) Europeans sending money to home, buying land / property and a robust immigration policy. Obviously not though, all down the the EU 🤔 Poland’s GDP didn’t boom because of builders sending money home. It boomed because they joined the largest trade bloc in the world and their exports tripled. " | |||
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