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"He is like a sledgehammer cracking a nut, but the intentions he has are fine, why wouldn't he try and protect US assets and income?" Now why could we not think about that ? One day it would be lovely to hear someone say that they are putting the "Great" back into Britain instead of importing third world crap . | |||
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"He is like a sledgehammer cracking a nut, but the intentions he has are fine, why wouldn't he try and protect US assets and income? Now why could we not think about that ? One day it would be lovely to hear someone say that they are putting the "Great" back into Britain instead of importing third world crap ." Starmer and now Burnham talk about investing in the country but have not one idea of how to that without attacking the businesses and people who actually generate the revenue needed for growth. Pat McFadden, “Every meeting I have is, Who can we tax in order to pay benefits to others? They’re asking the wrong questions.” Trump sees things differently, he promotes success and protects US business. | |||
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"Not sure why Trump gets called name for this. The UK and some EU countries have devised a form of digital services tax, with conditions such that they mostly only apply for the American big tech. In the UK, this tax is not even on the profit. It's on revenue. The result? It's the European consumers who are footing additional bill. Amazon, for example, added a digital services fee pointing out this tax as the reason. On one hand, as always, the European politicians have fucked their own people while pretending like they are fighting the evil big tech. On the other hand, Trump is doing what is needed to help American businesses, because you know... he is the president of America. Is a politician doing something that helps people and businesses of his own country such a controversial thing these days?" I can't disagree with that! I only wish they we had our home grown competitors but any company that starts in Europe is either lured or bought out by stateside companies. I guess that this goes back to taxes in Europe vs the US and rewards which is another argument and covered in another discussion. | |||
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"Not sure why Trump gets called name for this. The UK and some EU countries have devised a form of digital services tax, with conditions such that they mostly only apply for the American big tech. In the UK, this tax is not even on the profit. It's on revenue. The result? It's the European consumers who are footing additional bill. Amazon, for example, added a digital services fee pointing out this tax as the reason. On one hand, as always, the European politicians have fucked their own people while pretending like they are fighting the evil big tech. On the other hand, Trump is doing what is needed to help American businesses, because you know... he is the president of America. Is a politician doing something that helps people and businesses of his own country such a controversial thing these days? I can't disagree with that! I only wish they we had our home grown competitors but any company that starts in Europe is either lured or bought out by stateside companies. I guess that this goes back to taxes in Europe vs the US and rewards which is another argument and covered in another discussion." "Follow the money" | |||
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"Not sure why Trump gets called name for this. The UK and some EU countries have devised a form of digital services tax, with conditions such that they mostly only apply for the American big tech. In the UK, this tax is not even on the profit. It's on revenue. The result? It's the European consumers who are footing additional bill. Amazon, for example, added a digital services fee pointing out this tax as the reason. On one hand, as always, the European politicians have fucked their own people while pretending like they are fighting the evil big tech. On the other hand, Trump is doing what is needed to help American businesses, because you know... he is the president of America. Is a politician doing something that helps people and businesses of his own country such a controversial thing these days? I can't disagree with that! I only wish they we had our home grown competitors but any company that starts in Europe is either lured or bought out by stateside companies. I guess that this goes back to taxes in Europe vs the US and rewards which is another argument and covered in another discussion." Yes, we need to ultimately ask why the UK hasn't managed to build and run big tech companies like that. No easy answers there. | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk" There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say? | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk" Their responsibility is to their shareholders and to their customers, by extension. Tax is the responsibility of governments. Trump plays his game and the UK play theirs. Your issue is with the weakness of the UK, not Amazon. | |||
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"It's the European consumers who are footing additional bill. Amazon, for example, added a digital services fee pointing out this tax as the reason" This is working as intended, surely. Like a tariff. | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk" This…. If they are selling things within the uk to Uk customers, they should not be allowed to offshore to avoid paying Uk taxes… | |||
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"It's the European consumers who are footing additional bill. Amazon, for example, added a digital services fee pointing out this tax as the reason This is working as intended, surely. Like a tariff." Exactly! Basically some European countries imposed Tariffs on American companies. And Trump is threatening retaliatory tariffs. I don't see anything wrong with that. | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say?" What benefits are there to the UK though? | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say? What benefits are there to the UK though?" Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK?  | |||
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" Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK? "The counterargument to that is that it's like China flooding the market with cheap goods, or selling crack cocaine. Governments need to assess the impact beyond the immediate, and act accordingly. | |||
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" Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK?
The counterargument to that is that it's like China flooding the market with cheap goods, or selling crack cocaine. Governments need to assess the impact beyond the immediate, and act accordingly."That's true. But the truth is people still benefit from cheap goods from China, as they benefit from Amazon services. If Amazon disappears one day, even fab may not work 
The question we need to ask is why we cannot have British companies compete with Amazon. | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say? What benefits are there to the UK though? Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK? "If it wasn’t them it would be something else, people shopped before Amazon, they would continue to shop if they weren’t there. | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say? What benefits are there to the UK though? Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK?
If it wasn’t them it would be something else, people shopped before Amazon, they would continue to shop if they weren’t there."If there are so many other options, why does over 80% online shopping happen on Amazon? Surely they are doing something better than the competitors? And if we look at their AWS cloud business, the second biggest is Microsoft Azure and the third biggest is Google cloud. I am not even sure if the UK has a competitor in this space. And any migration we do comes at a massive cost and will take a lot of time. Are you personally willing to foot the bill for it? | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say? What benefits are there to the UK though? Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK?
If it wasn’t them it would be something else, people shopped before Amazon, they would continue to shop if they weren’t there.
If there are so many other options, why does over 80% online shopping happen on Amazon? Surely they are doing something better than the competitors?
And if we look at their AWS cloud business, the second biggest is Microsoft Azure and the third biggest is Google cloud. I am not even sure if the UK has a competitor in this space. And any migration we do comes at a massive cost and will take a lot of time. Are you personally willing to foot the bill for it?"If Amazon wasn’t available then another service would fill the vacuum, that’s how the world works. That’s why we’re not all driving around in cars made by Austin and British Leyland. It would be an opportunity for someone else, a company that is happy to pay tax in the UK. | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk Their responsibility is to their shareholders and to their customers, by extension. Tax is the responsibility of governments. Trump plays his game and the UK play theirs. Your issue is with the weakness of the UK, not Amazon." the uk IS starting to address that with a strong policy of taxing digital services which will benefit the UK by not allowing the likes of amazon to continue taking the piss by getting high on the hog while failing to contribute... that's whole point of the thread i thought. | |||
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"If Amazon wasn’t available then another service would fill the vacuum, that’s how the world works. That’s why we’re not all driving around in cars made by Austin and British Leyland. It would be an opportunity for someone else, a company that is happy to pay tax in the UK." We're not driving British cars any more, because we're driving European or Japanese or Chinese cars, made by companies that don't pay taxes in the UK. If Amazon disappeared, why would you assume that their replacement would be a British company willing to pay British tax? | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say? What benefits are there to the UK though? Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK? "well when their digital services are taxed by this strong policy, then there will be a more favourable benefit for the people of the uk | |||
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"If Amazon wasn’t available then another service would fill the vacuum, that’s how the world works. That’s why we’re not all driving around in cars made by Austin and British Leyland. It would be an opportunity for someone else, a company that is happy to pay tax in the UK. We're not driving British cars any more, because we're driving European or Japanese or Chinese cars, made by companies that don't pay taxes in the UK. If Amazon disappeared, why would you assume that their replacement would be a British company willing to pay British tax?" errr Nissan, Toyota, BMW (Mini and Rolls-Royce), and Tata (Jaguar and Land Rover)  | |||
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"If Amazon wasn’t available then another service would fill the vacuum, that’s how the world works. That’s why we’re not all driving around in cars made by Austin and British Leyland. It would be an opportunity for someone else, a company that is happy to pay tax in the UK. We're not driving British cars any more, because we're driving European or Japanese or Chinese cars, made by companies that don't pay taxes in the UK. If Amazon disappeared, why would you assume that their replacement would be a British company willing to pay British tax?" They don’t have to be a British company, they just have to be willing to pay tax. Why are you so desperate to lick corporate boot? Surely you think it’s a good thing that companies which trade in the UK pay tax in the UK? | |||
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"If Amazon wasn’t available then another service would fill the vacuum, that’s how the world works. That’s why we’re not all driving around in cars made by Austin and British Leyland. It would be an opportunity for someone else, a company that is happy to pay tax in the UK." "We're not driving British cars any more, because we're driving European or Japanese or Chinese cars, made by companies that don't pay taxes in the UK. If Amazon disappeared, why would you assume that their replacement would be a British company willing to pay British tax?" "errr Nissan, Toyota, BMW (Mini and Rolls-Royce), and Tata (Jaguar and Land Rover)" Nissan and Toyota are Japanese and pay some of their profits back to Japan. BMW is German and pays profits back to Germany. Tata is Indian and pays profits back to India. | |||
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"Why are you so desperate to lick corporate boot? Surely you think it’s a good thing that companies which trade in the UK pay tax in the UK?" What have I said that makes you think I'm happy to "lick corporate boot"? Amazon doesn't pay much tax in the UK because it reinvests most of its profits into new infrastructure. I'm very happy for companies to grow the economy and provide jobs for more people every year. | |||
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"now there's me thinking that Foreign car manufacturers pay a 10% import duty and 20% VAT on most vehicles imported into the UK. perhaps the amazon lickspittles would prefer that ended because the benefit of driving one of these cars is enough for the whole country to be happy" You can think that, but it doesn't make it true. Import Duties are paid by the importer, and of course that cost is passed on to the customer. Neither the manufacturer nor the importer pay VAT, that's directly paid by the customer. | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say? What benefits are there to the UK though? Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK?
If it wasn’t them it would be something else, people shopped before Amazon, they would continue to shop if they weren’t there.
If there are so many other options, why does over 80% online shopping happen on Amazon? Surely they are doing something better than the competitors?
And if we look at their AWS cloud business, the second biggest is Microsoft Azure and the third biggest is Google cloud. I am not even sure if the UK has a competitor in this space. And any migration we do comes at a massive cost and will take a lot of time. Are you personally willing to foot the bill for it?
If Amazon wasn’t available then another service would fill the vacuum, that’s how the world works. That’s why we’re not all driving around in cars made by Austin and British Leyland. It would be an opportunity for someone else, a company that is happy to pay tax in the UK."You think Amazon doesn't pay tax in the UK, seriously  | |||
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" If Amazon wasn’t available then another service would fill the vacuum, that’s how the world works. That’s why we’re not all driving around in cars made by Austin and British Leyland. It would be an opportunity for someone else, a company that is happy to pay tax in the UK." If a service as good exists, they would be already competing with Amazon. Why do you think they will magically come out of the woods once Amazon stops existing? And why do you think that new company will be from the UK and not another company from America? As I mentioned above, if you look at the top cloud providers, every one of them is American. If imposing tariffs to get rid of foreign companies is the correct approach according to you, do you also admit that Trump's Tariffs are good idea? It's contradictory say Trump's Tariffs are bad AND also claim that European countries tariffs are good. | |||
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"i'm not convinced that there is a benefit to having amazon who famously avoid their corporate tax responsibility etc. in the uk There are over 10 million Amazon prime members from the UK. If you add people doing ad hoc purchases to it, it is estimated that over 20 million people in the UK every month. In fact, over 80% of online shopping happens on Amazon. Over a quarter of the global cloud market is owned by Amazon. Basically one in four websites you visit runs on Amazon's infrastructure. No benefits, did you say? What benefits are there to the UK though? Pretty much every person in the country is using their service. That's not a benefit for the people of UK?
well when their digital services are taxed by this strong policy, then there will be a more favourable benefit for the people of the uk "Not really. The tax is going to come from the British people because Amazon will just up the prices. People either pay more to Amazon or another competitor that already charges more for a service of lesser quality. Both are less beneficial for the people of the UK. | |||
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" Not really. The tax is going to come from the British people because Amazon will just up the prices. People either pay more to Amazon or another competitor that already charges more for a service of lesser quality. Both are less beneficial for the people of the UK." Assuming that the overwhelming proportion of stuff people buy on Amazon is produced by China/elsewhere, then the government taking a slice of that isn't going to disadvantage the UK as a whole very much. Thinking of it as a tariff, it would probably be a net benefit. | |||
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" Not really. The tax is going to come from the British people because Amazon will just up the prices. People either pay more to Amazon or another competitor that already charges more for a service of lesser quality. Both are less beneficial for the people of the UK. Assuming that the overwhelming proportion of stuff people buy on Amazon is produced by China/elsewhere, then the government taking a slice of that isn't going to disadvantage the UK as a whole very much. Thinking of it as a tariff, it would probably be a net benefit." Yes, but the UK government is not taking money out of the existing slice that goes to Amazon. People will be paying more for the same goods and the government will take a slice of that. It's just more tax on the British people. These kind of protectionist tariffs will reasonably work if the UK or Europe have their own companies which are competing with the American companies. A tariff like this will force people to start using the local competitors. But unfortunately there aren't any. China has local players like Ali Baba. India has Flipkart(major stake now owned by Walmart though). Even South America has Mercado Libre. Who is going to take the reins from Amazon if it stops existing in the UK or Europe? Do you think they can provide same service at same prices? And this is all about e-commerce. I am not even getting into the cloud business. | |||
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"Cars made in the UK by Nissan and Toyota generate immense productivity for the country, which is better than taxes. And car companies do pay a whole range of taxes here. For balance, UK companies also operate in other countries and post profits over here. Nobody ever complains about that. The most important thing is that we have companies producing and employing. The taxes are pretty much secondary. Important, critical, etc. But secondary." Amazon too has big engineering offices in London and Edinburgh. | |||
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"Cars made in the UK by Nissan and Toyota generate immense productivity for the country, which is better than taxes. And car companies do pay a whole range of taxes here. For balance, UK companies also operate in other countries and post profits over here. Nobody ever complains about that. The most important thing is that we have companies producing and employing. The taxes are pretty much secondary. Important, critical, etc. But secondary." amazon are actively divesting in a human workforce .... i question the benefit of amazon. this strong policy is excellent progress, will benefit the country, increase innovation and create choice in the market. | |||
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"Cars made in the UK by Nissan and Toyota generate immense productivity for the country, which is better than taxes. And car companies do pay a whole range of taxes here. For balance, UK companies also operate in other countries and post profits over here. Nobody ever complains about that. The most important thing is that we have companies producing and employing. The taxes are pretty much secondary. Important, critical, etc. But secondary. amazon are actively divesting in a human workforce .... i question the benefit of amazon. this strong policy is excellent progress, will benefit the country, increase innovation and create choice in the market." Why do you think Amazon must stop existing for this country to suddenly become innovative? | |||
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"I think Trump should put 1000%, 5,000%, 10,000% tariffs on these products. Let us shed our dependence on the USA. IF anyone still buys our products then it is US money that pays the tariffs not the UK. So who cares?" People for whose goods and services the US market collapses care. As well as anyone who depends on the revenue and jobs provided thereby. | |||
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"I think Trump should put 1000%, 5,000%, 10,000% tariffs on these products. Let us shed our dependence on the USA. IF anyone still buys our products then it is US money that pays the tariffs not the UK. So who cares? People for whose goods and services the US market collapses care. As well as anyone who depends on the revenue and jobs provided thereby." Trump is involved in a Mafia style protection racket which uses threats of punishment to coerce others, e.g. Europe, to do his bidding. The USA did it for many years with arms, forcing NATO to buy vastly expensive weapons. Recently NATO has started to source from elsewhere (e.g. Saab Gripen) and the USA'S threats to leave NATO, which they need themselves, sound toothless. Now they want to force Europe to buy their other USA products. However, Canada's actions, the Iran war and the actions of American companies like John Deere who is leaving the USA, shows just flawed their threats are. Companies come and companies go. The successful ones react to a changing world and will survive despite the USA's threats. Our forefathers did not fight Nazi tyranny to have it replaced by Trump's economic tyrany. | |||
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" Why do you think Amazon must stop existing for this country to suddenly become innovative? "no where have i said that ... you've chosen to construct that as lie, principally because you know you've just lost the argument. | |||
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" Amazon too has big engineering offices in London and Edinburgh." amazon again is actively divesting in the human workforce at both locations and axing thousands of jobs this year alone. i question the benefit of amazon in the uk when they are actively seeking to achieve a net zero human workforce. | |||
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" Why do you think Amazon must stop existing for this country to suddenly become innovative?
no where have i said that ... you've chosen to construct that as lie, principally because you know you've just lost the argument."You said "this strong policy is excellent progress, will benefit the country, increase innovation and create choice in the market" Why do you think taxing Amazon more will magically lead to innovation in the UK? | |||
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" Amazon too has big engineering offices in London and Edinburgh. amazon again is actively divesting in the human workforce at both locations and axing thousands of jobs this year alone. i question the benefit of amazon in the uk when they are actively seeking to achieve a net zero human workforce. " Lol. No company targets zero human workforce. With AI, we are looking at about 10-20% reduction. And Amazon is not the only company that's doing it. Every company does it. All the companies have been doing it ever since the industrial revolution started. | |||
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" Why do you think Amazon must stop existing for this country to suddenly become innovative?
no where have i said that ... you've chosen to construct that as lie, principally because you know you've just lost the argument.
You said "this strong policy is excellent progress, will benefit the country, increase innovation and create choice in the market"
Why do you think taxing Amazon more will magically lead to innovation in the UK?"and now you're going to pretend that the lie you wrote about me saying 'amazon must stop existing' doesn't exist. sums you really don't it chap. | |||
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"I think Trump should put 1000%, 5,000%, 10,000% tariffs on these products. Let us shed our dependence on the USA. IF anyone still buys our products then it is US money that pays the tariffs not the UK. So who cares? People for whose goods and services the US market collapses care. As well as anyone who depends on the revenue and jobs provided thereby. Trump is involved in a Mafia style protection racket which uses threats of punishment to coerce others, e.g. Europe, to do his bidding. " How is his tariffs different from the tariffs European countries put on American companies? | |||
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" Why do you think Amazon must stop existing for this country to suddenly become innovative?
no where have i said that ... you've chosen to construct that as lie, principally because you know you've just lost the argument.
You said "this strong policy is excellent progress, will benefit the country, increase innovation and create choice in the market"
Why do you think taxing Amazon more will magically lead to innovation in the UK?
and now you're going to pretend that the lie you wrote about me saying 'amazon must stop existing' doesn't exist. sums you really don't it chap."You still didn't answer my question. Why is punishing Amazon necessary for UK to become innovative? | |||
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"I think Trump should put 1000%, 5,000%, 10,000% tariffs on these products. Let us shed our dependence on the USA. IF anyone still buys our products then it is US money that pays the tariffs not the UK. So who cares? People for whose goods and services the US market collapses care. As well as anyone who depends on the revenue and jobs provided thereby. Trump is involved in a Mafia style protection racket which uses threats of punishment to coerce others, e.g. Europe, to do his bidding. How is his tariffs different from the tariffs European countries put on American companies?" During Biden' presidency the tariffs in the EU were reduced. Trump came in and stuck them on again at a far higher level. He issued threats of massive tariff increases if he did not get his own way. | |||
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"It's interesting that the same people who want "those evil American companies" to be punished with more taxes and kicked out and want British/European companies to replace them are also the ones who have fetish for more taxes and regulations which already killed off entrepreneurship in Europe. The moment a British company succeeds and makes a lot of profit, the same people will go on a witch hunt after them asking them to be taxed more because "those evil shareholders are making too much profits"." This ! | |||
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