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"with the EU proven to be in the ascendancy and countries queuing up to rejoin, ALL data and ALL reputable economic analysts now showing the minimum loss to the economy at a very conservative 6% but more like 9-12% , along with a majority greater than 65% of ALL voters now calling the country to rejoin and concrete evidence of the process being fast tracked and on the same terms you'd have to be devoid of intelligence among a plethora other character flaws to argue against." Pretty much every word of that is incorrect, but let's start at the beginning. Please let us know what proof there is that the EU is "in the ascendancy". | |||
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"Agree with brexiteer Jacob Rees Mogg comments. That ‘it will be decades to see any benefit from Brexit’ " Read: I will therefore never need to justify it in my lifetime... | |||
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"A complete waste of time, money, effort, divided the country, took things away from younger generation(s), made things harder for British citizens abroad and EU citizens in Britain. " Basket case and today I read the UK national debt is rising the fastest on the globe, second only to Botswana. | |||
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" whole circus long lasting negative effect on the UK." Brexit in a nutshell. | |||
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"Wow, cannot believe it's 10 years. I think the whole circus around it definitely has had a long lasting negative effect on the UK. As for the economics and political issues no idea, I think it's impossible to calculate. In principle, both approaches make a lot of sense, it makes sense to be control of your own country also makes sense to form strong partnerships & federations with allies." It seems to have flown by though it's 10 years from the referendum whereas Brexit itself is about half that age | |||
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"Wed say so, but then the entire political class haven't taken advantage of the opportunities to self govern. There should have been mass law repealing by now." So what would you repeal? | |||
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"The opportunities of Brexit haven’t been fully utilised by centrist politicians, that’s been the only problem with it. Can’t wait until Big Nige gives us ‘the right kind of Brexit’. Utopia awaits! (If your idea of utopia is working in a Victorian workhouse with scant regard for health & safety for a pittance doffing one’s cap to the owner after working 80 hours a week)" Tell us about these opportunities | |||
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"with the EU proven to be in the ascendancy and countries queuing up to rejoin, ALL data and ALL reputable economic analysts now showing the minimum loss to the economy at a very conservative 6% but more like 9-12% , along with a majority greater than 65% of ALL voters now calling the country to rejoin and concrete evidence of the process being fast tracked and on the same terms you'd have to be devoid of intelligence among a plethora other character flaws to argue against. Pretty much every word of that is incorrect, but let's start at the beginning. Please let us know what proof there is that the EU is "in the ascendancy"." If thats incorrect, give the correct version. Happy to hear it. | |||
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"with the EU proven to be in the ascendancy and countries queuing up to rejoin, ALL data and ALL reputable economic analysts now showing the minimum loss to the economy at a very conservative 6% but more like 9-12% , along with a majority greater than 65% of ALL voters now calling the country to rejoin and concrete evidence of the process being fast tracked and on the same terms you'd have to be devoid of intelligence among a plethora other character flaws to argue against." "Pretty much every word of that is incorrect, but let's start at the beginning. Please let us know what proof there is that the EU is "in the ascendancy"." "If thats incorrect, give the correct version. Happy to hear it. " Well, to stick to the spirit of the original: The EU appears to be going along as usual. Some data and some reputable economic analysts show the loss to the economy at about 6% but others think it's less than that. A majority greater than 65% of people who responded to a poll are now not unhappy with the idea of rejoining, and some EU officials have unofficially said that the UK could be fast tracked. I've missed off the passive aggressive insults at the end, hope that's OK. | |||
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"It was 1 of the most significant errors a country has made in modern times. " Brexit and the Iraq war One is karma for the other | |||
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"with the EU proven to be in the ascendancy and countries queuing up to rejoin, ALL data and ALL reputable economic analysts now showing the minimum loss to the economy at a very conservative 6% but more like 9-12% , along with a majority greater than 65% of ALL voters now calling the country to rejoin and concrete evidence of the process being fast tracked and on the same terms you'd have to be devoid of intelligence among a plethora other character flaws to argue against. Pretty much every word of that is incorrect, but let's start at the beginning. Please let us know what proof there is that the EU is "in the ascendancy". If thats incorrect, give the correct version. Happy to hear it. Well, to stick to the spirit of the original: The EU appears to be going along as usual. Some data and some reputable economic analysts show the loss to the economy at about 6% but others think it's less than that. A majority greater than 65% of people who responded to a poll are now not unhappy with the idea of rejoining, and some EU officials have unofficially said that the UK could be fast tracked. I've missed off the passive aggressive insults at the end, hope that's OK." seeing as how you demand proof of everything then prove that what you said there isn't the garbage that it is. | |||
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"seeing as how you demand proof of everything then prove that what you said there isn't the garbage that it is." I don't demand proof of everything, I just like to understand people. In this thread I asked you why you thought that the EU was "in the ascendancy". I see no evidence of an economic acceleration in the EU, and I am unaware of any political gains in recent years. What have you seen that leads you to think otherwise? | |||
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"seeing as how you demand proof of everything then prove that what you said there isn't the garbage that it is. I don't demand proof of everything, I just like to understand people. In this thread I asked you why you thought that the EU was "in the ascendancy". I see no evidence of an economic acceleration in the EU, and I am unaware of any political gains in recent years. What have you seen that leads you to think otherwise?" it's not my thoughts .... it's proven fact. just because you've put your head in the ideological sand of your choice and ignored that fact, it does not mean it does not exist. and i am certainly not here to assuage to your demands as you continue to wilfully ignore that already demonstrated fact. | |||
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"seeing as how you demand proof of everything then prove that what you said there isn't the garbage that it is." "I don't demand proof of everything, I just like to understand people. In this thread I asked you why you thought that the EU was "in the ascendancy". I see no evidence of an economic acceleration in the EU, and I am unaware of any political gains in recent years. What have you seen that leads you to think otherwise?" "it's not my thoughts .... it's proven fact. just because you've put your head in the ideological sand of your choice and ignored that fact, it does not mean it does not exist. and i am certainly not here to assuage to your demands as you continue to wilfully ignore that already demonstrated fact." There are plenty of sites out there that show economic data in graph form, and they all show the EU trending in a similar manner to other major economies. | |||
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" There are plenty of sites out there that show economic data in graph form, and they all show the EU trending in a similar manner to other major economies." The Mario Draghi report gave a clear warning about how European economy is on decline thanks to less competitiveness and innovation over the last couple of decades. The report clearly calls out all the issues, the main ones being restrictive/inconsistent regulations and taxes that suffocate businesses and too much reliance on single suppliers. The EU acknowledged the report and formed a committee to work on solving the problems the report pointed out, as they always do. The biggest idea that the committee has come up with? A 200 billion AI fund 
The solution to every problem for these bureaucrats is to take more tax money from people and throwing at the problem. At least now, we don't have to be part of the bureaucratic nightmare of an organisation. | |||
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"The Mario Draghi report gave a clear warning about how European economy is on decline thanks to less competitiveness and innovation over the last couple of decades. The report clearly calls out all the issues, the main ones being restrictive/inconsistent regulations and taxes that suffocate businesses and too much reliance on single suppliers." So a report endorsed by the EU says that the EU is on the decline. That rather contradicts the claim that it is "in the ascendancy" made by someone else above. | |||
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"The Mario Draghi report gave a clear warning about how European economy is on decline thanks to less competitiveness and innovation over the last couple of decades. The report clearly calls out all the issues, the main ones being restrictive/inconsistent regulations and taxes that suffocate businesses and too much reliance on single suppliers. So a report endorsed by the EU says that the EU is on the decline. That rather contradicts the claim that it is "in the ascendancy" made by someone else above." Draghi's words in the press conference when the report was released - "The situation at the moment is really worrisome. Growth has been slowing down for a long time in Europe, but we've ignored (it)... Now we cannot ignore it any longer. Now conditions have changed.. It's 'Do this' or it's a slow agony" The report was published in September 2024 and yes, the EU endorsed it. | |||
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"seeing as how you demand proof of everything then prove that what you said there isn't the garbage that it is. I don't demand proof of everything, I just like to understand people. In this thread I asked you why you thought that the EU was "in the ascendancy". I see no evidence of an economic acceleration in the EU, and I am unaware of any political gains in recent years. What have you seen that leads you to think otherwise? it's not my thoughts .... it's proven fact. just because you've put your head in the ideological sand of your choice and ignored that fact, it does not mean it does not exist. and i am certainly not here to assuage to your demands as you continue to wilfully ignore that already demonstrated fact. There are plenty of sites out there that show economic data in graph form, and they all show the EU trending in a similar manner to other major economies." i prefer the more concrete data driven evidence from reputable sources rather than ideological nonsense from the lunatic fringe media that you attempt to pass off as "proof" thanks all the same. | |||
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"i prefer the more concrete data driven evidence from reputable sources rather than ideological nonsense from the lunatic fringe media that you attempt to pass off as "proof" thanks all the same." That's what I like to hear, evidence-based opinions. Would you like to tell us how to find the concrete evidence that you rely on? Oh, by the way, the "lunatic fringe media" that endorsed the Draghi Report was the EU. | |||
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"The Mario Draghi report gave a clear warning about how European economy is on decline thanks to less competitiveness and innovation over the last couple of decades. The report clearly calls out all the issues, the main ones being restrictive/inconsistent regulations and taxes that suffocate businesses and too much reliance on single suppliers. So a report endorsed by the EU says that the EU is on the decline. That rather contradicts the claim that it is "in the ascendancy" made by someone else above." so an out of date report compiled of data sets from the time of covid, that has since implemented recommendations for improvement is all you got? meanwhile back in the present, the eu economy has grown 1.5 % year on year since it's publication and countries are queuing up to join .... yet you maintain that this somehow represents decline.... laughable | |||
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" so an out of date report " A report on EU's long term decline published in 2024 is out if date? " compiled of data sets from the time of covid, " The data covers time much longer than COVID time and it compares EU's growth with the other economies. EU has been performing poorly compared to the other big economies. All of them were affected by Covid. " that has since implemented recommendations for improvement is all you got? " They haven't. They started some committee which created a 200 billion AI fund. But the primary problems about regulation and taxation are still there. " meanwhile back in the present, the eu economy has grown 1.5 % year on year since it's publication and countries are queuing up to join .... yet you maintain that this somehow represents decline.... laughable" Poor countries are queuing up for the handouts. And UK economy also grown that much, if not more. | |||
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" so an out of date report A report on EU's long term decline published in 2024 is out if date? compiled of data sets from the time of covid, The data covers time much longer than COVID time and it compares EU's growth with the other economies. EU has been performing poorly compared to the other big economies. All of them were affected by Covid. that has since implemented recommendations for improvement is all you got? They haven't. They started some committee which created a 200 billion AI fund. But the primary problems about regulation and taxation are still there. meanwhile back in the present, the eu economy has grown 1.5 % year on year since it's publication and countries are queuing up to join .... yet you maintain that this somehow represents decline.... laughable Poor countries are queuing up for the handouts. And UK economy also grown that much, if not more. " nobody is interested in your personal ideological interpretation of stories in the lunatic fringe media that suit your agenda. instead they are interested in proven facts such as the fact that the EU is in ascendancy enjoying continued economic growth with countries queuing up to join. | |||
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" so an out of date report A report on EU's long term decline published in 2024 is out if date? compiled of data sets from the time of covid, The data covers time much longer than COVID time and it compares EU's growth with the other economies. EU has been performing poorly compared to the other big economies. All of them were affected by Covid. that has since implemented recommendations for improvement is all you got? They haven't. They started some committee which created a 200 billion AI fund. But the primary problems about regulation and taxation are still there. meanwhile back in the present, the eu economy has grown 1.5 % year on year since it's publication and countries are queuing up to join .... yet you maintain that this somehow represents decline.... laughable Poor countries are queuing up for the handouts. And UK economy also grown that much, if not more. nobody is interested in your personal ideological interpretation of stories in the lunatic fringe media that suit your agenda. instead they are interested in proven facts such as the fact that the EU is in ascendancy enjoying continued economic growth with countries queuing up to join." Don't think Mario Draghi works for any "lunatic fringe media"  | |||
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"I think the problem was that whenever someone had a gripe and asked what was going to be done about it, the answer was always "can't- EU won't allow it" when the actual reason is that it's too much bother. Now there's no excuse and we are discovering that the will just isn't there." The answer was right. It's really hard to get changes through EU. See how long Orban managed to block EU funds to Ukraine. Now Orban is gone but in a couple of years, you will have AfD in Germany or National Rally in France doing the same thing. | |||
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" so an out of date report A report on EU's long term decline published in 2024 is out if date? compiled of data sets from the time of covid, The data covers time much longer than COVID time and it compares EU's growth with the other economies. EU has been performing poorly compared to the other big economies. All of them were affected by Covid. that has since implemented recommendations for improvement is all you got? They haven't. They started some committee which created a 200 billion AI fund. But the primary problems about regulation and taxation are still there. meanwhile back in the present, the eu economy has grown 1.5 % year on year since it's publication and countries are queuing up to join .... yet you maintain that this somehow represents decline.... laughable Poor countries are queuing up for the handouts. And UK economy also grown that much, if not more. nobody is interested in your personal ideological interpretation of stories in the lunatic fringe media that suit your agenda. instead they are interested in proven facts such as the fact that the EU is in ascendancy enjoying continued economic growth with countries queuing up to join. Don't think Mario Draghi works for any "lunatic fringe media" "one fact is certain ... he didn't say anywhere in the report that the EU is currently in decline ... there have been a few of the usual gaslighting opinion pieces by one or two minor columnists in the lunatic fringe media that attempt to falsely frame the report as saying it is however, but their pushing of that sort of falsehood is standard behaviour which no doubt forms opinions of the more credulous in society who are vulnerable to that sort of unethical conduct | |||
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" one fact is certain ... he didn't say anywhere in the report that the EU is currently in decline ... " His own quote to the media when the report was published - "The situation at the moment is really worrisome. Growth has been slowing down for a long time in Europe, but we've ignored (it)... Now we cannot ignore it any longer. Now conditions have changed.. It's 'Do this' or it's a slow agony" " there have been a few of the usual gaslighting opinion pieces by one or two minor columnists in the lunatic fringe media that attempt to falsely frame the report as saying it is however, but their pushing of that sort of falsehood is standard behaviour which no doubt forms opinions of the more credulous in society who are vulnerable to that sort of unethical conduct " That's a lot of word salad which only proves that you didn't read the report at all but have already developed strong opinions about it. | |||
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" one fact is certain ... he didn't say anywhere in the report that the EU is currently in decline ... His own quote to the media when the report was published - "The situation at the moment is really worrisome. Growth has been slowing down for a long time in Europe, but we've ignored (it)... Now we cannot ignore it any longer. Now conditions have changed.. It's 'Do this' or it's a slow agony" there have been a few of the usual gaslighting opinion pieces by one or two minor columnists in the lunatic fringe media that attempt to falsely frame the report as saying it is however, but their pushing of that sort of falsehood is standard behaviour which no doubt forms opinions of the more credulous in society who are vulnerable to that sort of unethical conduct That's a lot of word salad which only proves that you didn't read the report at all but have already developed strong opinions about it. " nowhere in that text which you've cut and pasted from the telegraph does it back up your assertion that europe is in decline. it's probably better for you and your mental well being if you accept and deal with the already proven facts that the EU is in the ascendency and then move on.  | |||
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" one fact is certain ... he didn't say anywhere in the report that the EU is currently in decline ... His own quote to the media when the report was published - "The situation at the moment is really worrisome. Growth has been slowing down for a long time in Europe, but we've ignored (it)... Now we cannot ignore it any longer. Now conditions have changed.. It's 'Do this' or it's a slow agony" there have been a few of the usual gaslighting opinion pieces by one or two minor columnists in the lunatic fringe media that attempt to falsely frame the report as saying it is however, but their pushing of that sort of falsehood is standard behaviour which no doubt forms opinions of the more credulous in society who are vulnerable to that sort of unethical conduct That's a lot of word salad which only proves that you didn't read the report at all but have already developed strong opinions about it. nowhere in that text which you've cut and pasted from the telegraph does it back up your assertion that europe is in decline. it's probably better for you and your mental well being if you accept and deal with the already proven facts that the EU is in the ascendency and then move on. "😆😆😆 If you see that quote and still believe EU is in ascendancy, I can't do much. This is what propaganda and brainwashing does to people I guess 🤷♂️ | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind?" I would have rather stayed in personally as it’s easier to travel. Live overseas in different places. Get better jobs etc | |||
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""This is what propaganda and brainwashing does to people I guess" Absolutely spot on! That's the reason we left the EU! Propaganda and brainwashing and those who were brainwashed are still banging the same drum hoping that someone will pay attention! " I have shared enough evidence to show that the EU is on decline and the other poster kept saying that's not the case when they have evidence right in front of them. That's basically what propaganda and brainwashing means. " If Brexit was so good then why are those who voted for it still trying to justify it? " What kind of logic is this? Does trying to justify something make it a lie? | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind?" I voted Leave and I’d do the same. The result proved that politicians pretty much hate us as they spent about four years arguing and getting nowhere, then Covid happened… Then we just kinda left the EU anyway. We should’ve left within a year of the result. | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind? I voted Leave and I’d do the same. The result proved that politicians pretty much hate us as they spent about four years arguing and getting nowhere, then Covid happened… Then we just kinda left the EU anyway. We should’ve left within a year of the result." Very easy to say that but in the real world how exactly was that ever supposed to work? | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind?" I don't regret voting Leave because I wanted the UK to have greater strategic autonomy over its economic policy. I'd vote the same now, although I will concede and knew at the time in 2015 it wouldn't necessarily be better for the UK to leave the EU, certainly not in the short-medium term and only if a bunch of certain circumstances materialised. What I regret is that, instead of using that freedom to pursue a long-term industrial strategy similar in spirit to successful medium-sized trading economies like Japan or South Korea, successive governments largely lurched from one crisis to the next, short termism. Mainly because of the systematic lies that come from the people elected to enact these positions, but I'm not making this about the tory/labour/UK political incompetence. It would only be the "right thing" imo if the argument for leaving was greater control over industrial, trade and regulatory policy, then simply leaving wasn't enough. There needed to be a coherent long-term economic strategy afterwards. Many Leave voters expected that; many Remain voters argued it would be difficult to achieve. Regardless of which side someone was on, it's understandable why people look back and see years of political instability rather than a clear national plan. So there is no "right thing" because so far we have had a shit show, when it really needed a clear long term, 10-20-30 year plan. The UK's fundamentally different from Japan's, so copying its policies wholesale wouldn't make sense, or even work necessarily. But there are BIG lessons that can be learned from countries that have managed to combine openness to trade with a strong sense of economic sovereignty. For example *Be open to trade, but identify strategic industries and protect them with tariffs from foreign competitors. *Think in decades rather than election cycles, giving confidence in investment. *Invest heavily in skills, apprenticeships, engineering/infrastructure projects *This requires vast domestic investment and productivity, rather than thinking let's squeeze financial services and property for more of this make believe growth were told it provides. Brexit was never going to be judged solely on the referendum result, it was always going to be judged on what the UK did with the opportunities and trade-offs that followed, ie f**k all folded in half. 😂 | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind? I don't regret voting Leave because I wanted the UK to have greater strategic autonomy over its economic policy. I'd vote the same now, although I will concede and knew at the time in 2015 it wouldn't necessarily be better for the UK to leave the EU, certainly not in the short-medium term and only if a bunch of certain circumstances materialised. What I regret is that, instead of using that freedom to pursue a long-term industrial strategy similar in spirit to successful medium-sized trading economies like Japan or South Korea, successive governments largely lurched from one crisis to the next, short termism. Mainly because of the systematic lies that come from the people elected to enact these positions, but I'm not making this about the tory/labour/UK political incompetence. It would only be the "right thing" imo if the argument for leaving was greater control over industrial, trade and regulatory policy, then simply leaving wasn't enough. There needed to be a coherent long-term economic strategy afterwards. Many Leave voters expected that; many Remain voters argued it would be difficult to achieve. Regardless of which side someone was on, it's understandable why people look back and see years of political instability rather than a clear national plan. So there is no "right thing" because so far we have had a shit show, when it really needed a clear long term, 10-20-30 year plan. The UK's fundamentally different from Japan's, so copying its policies wholesale wouldn't make sense, or even work necessarily. But there are BIG lessons that can be learned from countries that have managed to combine openness to trade with a strong sense of economic sovereignty. For example *Be open to trade, but identify strategic industries and protect them with tariffs from foreign competitors. *Think in decades rather than election cycles, giving confidence in investment. *Invest heavily in skills, apprenticeships, engineering/infrastructure projects *This requires vast domestic investment and productivity, rather than thinking let's squeeze financial services and property for more of this make believe growth were told it provides. Brexit was never going to be judged solely on the referendum result, it was always going to be judged on what the UK did with the opportunities and trade-offs that followed, ie f**k all folded in half. 😂" Good point and well written but why couldn't the UK do that whilst part of the EU? | |||
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"Was a good move .. but.. the politicians weren't intent on exercising the opportunity and instead just pratted about " But.. what opportunity ? ...and why could that same opportunity not have been done when the UK was part of the EU? | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind? I voted Leave and I’d do the same. The result proved that politicians pretty much hate us as they spent about four years arguing and getting nowhere, then Covid happened… Then we just kinda left the EU anyway. We should’ve left within a year of the result. Very easy to say that but in the real world how exactly was that ever supposed to work?" That was the job of the government of the day to make it work. | |||
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"Was a good move .. but.. the politicians weren't intent on exercising the opportunity and instead just pratted about But.. what opportunity ? ...and why could that same opportunity not have been done when the UK was part of the EU?" Because when you are part of the EU, many economic policies are centrally controlled by the EU and you can't independently change them. | |||
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"Was a good move .. but.. the politicians weren't intent on exercising the opportunity and instead just pratted about But.. what opportunity ? ...and why could that same opportunity not have been done when the UK was part of the EU? Because when you are part of the EU, many economic policies are centrally controlled by the EU and you can't independently change them." I don't think you are correct there but without specifics, we can't be sure. Certainly there were (and are) some policies which are controlled centrally but why should they stop growth, political drive, industrial investment or other specifics which have already been mentioned by a previous poster. Germany managed to manufacture and sell cars globally for example. There were and are no policies to stop the UK becoming a manufacturing powerhouse - the issue is more that the UK does not have the skills base and that is nothing to do with being part of (or not part of) the EU. If the UK wants to become the global leader in AI (for example), the EU would not have stopped them. I think that (again) people clutch at straws to claim that the EU held them back then grab more straws to say that it wasn't the right Brexit then, ten years later grab the last of the straws from the container to say that the UK has not taken advantage of leaving the EU due to politics. The UK has some fantastic individuals and lots of talent. We need to invest in education (whether that is through universities, colleges or apprenticeships) that is target driven to meet the countries needs for the future. To do that we need people with vision in the right places. Being part of the EU or not changes nothing there but being out of the EU means that trading is harder and freedom of movement is hampered. | |||
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" Certainly there were (and are) some policies which are controlled centrally but why should they stop growth, political drive, industrial investment or other specifics which have already been mentioned by a previous poster. " Investments is a whole different topic. My concerns are with regulations in the EU that you can't walk out off. These regulations have essentially killed off Europe as an economic force. Getting out of EU gives us a chance to remove these regulatory shackles. " Germany managed to manufacture and sell cars globally for example. " Germany is losing to Chinese cars and Tesla already. Now that you remind me of German car manufacturing, Germany was against the tariffs against Chinese cars and yet the tariffs were passed. Now they are worried that if China passed retaliatory tariffs, it's Germany that will be the most affected because they make a lot of money selling cars to China. Different countries have different economic strengths. Centralising economic policies of all these countries was an idiotic idea. " If the UK wants to become the global leader in AI (for example), the EU would not have stopped them. " The EU already stopped their member countries from becoming a global leader in AI with their lunatic AI act. " I think that (again) people clutch at straws to claim that the EU held them back then grab more straws to say that it wasn't the right Brexit then, ten years later grab the last of the straws from the container to say that the UK has not taken advantage of leaving the EU due to politics. " So tell me, why do you think the EU is in economic decline then? | |||
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" Certainly there were (and are) some policies which are controlled centrally but why should they stop growth, political drive, industrial investment or other specifics which have already been mentioned by a previous poster. Investments is a whole different topic. My concerns are with regulations in the EU that you can't walk out off. These regulations have essentially killed off Europe as an economic force. Getting out of EU gives us a chance to remove these regulatory shackles. Germany managed to manufacture and sell cars globally for example. Germany is losing to Chinese cars and Tesla already. Now that you remind me of German car manufacturing, Germany was against the tariffs against Chinese cars and yet the tariffs were passed. Now they are worried that if China passed retaliatory tariffs, it's Germany that will be the most affected because they make a lot of money selling cars to China. Different countries have different economic strengths. Centralising economic policies of all these countries was an idiotic idea. If the UK wants to become the global leader in AI (for example), the EU would not have stopped them. The EU already stopped their member countries from becoming a global leader in AI with their lunatic AI act. I think that (again) people clutch at straws to claim that the EU held them back then grab more straws to say that it wasn't the right Brexit then, ten years later grab the last of the straws from the container to say that the UK has not taken advantage of leaving the EU due to politics. So tell me, why do you think the EU is in economic decline then? " I don't remember me saying that the EU was in economic decline! | |||
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" Certainly there were (and are) some policies which are controlled centrally but why should they stop growth, political drive, industrial investment or other specifics which have already been mentioned by a previous poster. Investments is a whole different topic. My concerns are with regulations in the EU that you can't walk out off. These regulations have essentially killed off Europe as an economic force. Getting out of EU gives us a chance to remove these regulatory shackles. Germany managed to manufacture and sell cars globally for example. Germany is losing to Chinese cars and Tesla already. Now that you remind me of German car manufacturing, Germany was against the tariffs against Chinese cars and yet the tariffs were passed. Now they are worried that if China passed retaliatory tariffs, it's Germany that will be the most affected because they make a lot of money selling cars to China. Different countries have different economic strengths. Centralising economic policies of all these countries was an idiotic idea. If the UK wants to become the global leader in AI (for example), the EU would not have stopped them. The EU already stopped their member countries from becoming a global leader in AI with their lunatic AI act. I think that (again) people clutch at straws to claim that the EU held them back then grab more straws to say that it wasn't the right Brexit then, ten years later grab the last of the straws from the container to say that the UK has not taken advantage of leaving the EU due to politics. So tell me, why do you think the EU is in economic decline then? I don't remember me saying that the EU was in economic decline!" I mentioned in a previous post. Check out Mario Draghi's report. The EU has been in a decline for a while now. Their rigidity, bureaucracy and the attitude of the politicians means there is going to be no recovery in the near future. I don't think the benefit of free trade with them outweighs the cost of being in a dying economic zone that is run by a bunch of bureaucrats who have a fetish for nonsensical regulations. | |||
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" Certainly there were (and are) some policies which are controlled centrally but why should they stop growth, political drive, industrial investment or other specifics which have already been mentioned by a previous poster. Investments is a whole different topic. My concerns are with regulations in the EU that you can't walk out off. These regulations have essentially killed off Europe as an economic force. Getting out of EU gives us a chance to remove these regulatory shackles. Germany managed to manufacture and sell cars globally for example. Germany is losing to Chinese cars and Tesla already. Now that you remind me of German car manufacturing, Germany was against the tariffs against Chinese cars and yet the tariffs were passed. Now they are worried that if China passed retaliatory tariffs, it's Germany that will be the most affected because they make a lot of money selling cars to China. Different countries have different economic strengths. Centralising economic policies of all these countries was an idiotic idea. If the UK wants to become the global leader in AI (for example), the EU would not have stopped them. The EU already stopped their member countries from becoming a global leader in AI with their lunatic AI act. I think that (again) people clutch at straws to claim that the EU held them back then grab more straws to say that it wasn't the right Brexit then, ten years later grab the last of the straws from the container to say that the UK has not taken advantage of leaving the EU due to politics. So tell me, why do you think the EU is in economic decline then? I don't remember me saying that the EU was in economic decline! I mentioned in a previous post. Check out Mario Draghi's report. The EU has been in a decline for a while now. Their rigidity, bureaucracy and the attitude of the politicians means there is going to be no recovery in the near future. I don't think the benefit of free trade with them outweighs the cost of being in a dying economic zone that is run by a bunch of bureaucrats who have a fetish for nonsensical regulations." I saw that post - typical right wing stuff loosely based on fact to suit an argument. I would say that Europe is in decline (Europe includes Britain) and the age of Imperialism is at an end. No longer does Britain rule the waves or the Dutch, French, British etc. their colonies. The USA, Russia and China are the current rule makers but religion also takes its seat and Christianity is slowly being usurped by the Muslim faith. All empires have their day and Europe has had theirs. What you are talking about and quoting is nothing more than cheap propaganda and very little to do with the bigger picture. The UK, leaving the EU weakened it. The UK became weaker still having left the EU. But, in the bigger picture, it makes little difference. | |||
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"It was the right thing. The EU is on a decline, thanks to overregulation. And they are too rigid for change as it's hard to get consensus among different countries. Now, the UK has its economic and political decision under its own control. It does come at the cost of easier trade with the other EU countries. But overall, the tradeoff is worth it." Pray tell me how this economic and political decision under its own control has been used and how it has affected our lives for the better ? | |||
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" I saw that post - typical right wing stuff loosely based on fact to suit an argument. I would say that Europe is in decline (Europe includes Britain) and the age of Imperialism is at an end. No longer does Britain rule the waves or the Dutch, French, British etc. their colonies. The USA, Russia and China are the current rule makers but religion also takes its seat and Christianity is slowly being usurped by the Muslim faith. All empires have their day and Europe has had theirs. What you are talking about and quoting is nothing more than cheap propaganda and very little to do with the bigger picture. The UK, leaving the EU weakened it. The UK became weaker still having left the EU. But, in the bigger picture, it makes little difference. " All I see is you whining about my post being "propaganda" without making a single rational argument. The Mario Draghi report is real and it is endorsed by the EU itself. If you follow the news about global economy, you would have already known that the EU has been in decline for a long time. You wouldn't even have to wait till the Mario Draghi report. The decline of EU started even before Brexit happened. Their idiotic regulations have been slowly killing of the economy for a while now. There is nothing right wing about pointing out the facts. | |||
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"It was the right thing. The EU is on a decline, thanks to overregulation. And they are too rigid for change as it's hard to get consensus among different countries. Now, the UK has its economic and political decision under its own control. It does come at the cost of easier trade with the other EU countries. But overall, the tradeoff is worth it. Pray tell me how this economic and political decision under its own control has been used and how it has affected our lives for the better ? " So far, the freedom has been used only to a smaller extent. Within the EU, we were down the path of a promised decline. Now, we at least have an option to course-correct without having to go through years of negotiation and bureaucracy with the EU. | |||
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"It was the right thing. The EU is on a decline, thanks to overregulation. And they are too rigid for change as it's hard to get consensus among different countries. Now, the UK has its economic and political decision under its own control. It does come at the cost of easier trade with the other EU countries. But overall, the tradeoff is worth it. Pray tell me how this economic and political decision under its own control has been used and how it has affected our lives for the better ? So far, the freedom has been used only to a smaller extent. Within the EU, we were down the path of a promised decline. Now, we at least have an option to course-correct without having to go through years of negotiation and bureaucracy with the EU." Yawn...... People trying to justify themselves by repeating the same drivel again and again send me to sleep... | |||
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"It was the right thing. The EU is on a decline, thanks to overregulation. And they are too rigid for change as it's hard to get consensus among different countries. Now, the UK has its economic and political decision under its own control. It does come at the cost of easier trade with the other EU countries. But overall, the tradeoff is worth it. Pray tell me how this economic and political decision under its own control has been used and how it has affected our lives for the better ? So far, the freedom has been used only to a smaller extent. Within the EU, we were down the path of a promised decline. Now, we at least have an option to course-correct without having to go through years of negotiation and bureaucracy with the EU. Yawn...... People trying to justify themselves by repeating the same drivel again and again send me to sleep..." Still waiting for a proper rebuttal from you instead of emotional drivel like this | |||
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"It was the right thing. The EU is on a decline, thanks to overregulation. And they are too rigid for change as it's hard to get consensus among different countries. Now, the UK has its economic and political decision under its own control. It does come at the cost of easier trade with the other EU countries. But overall, the tradeoff is worth it. Pray tell me how this economic and political decision under its own control has been used and how it has affected our lives for the better ? So far, the freedom has been used only to a smaller extent. Within the EU, we were down the path of a promised decline. Now, we at least have an option to course-correct without having to go through years of negotiation and bureaucracy with the EU. Yawn...... People trying to justify themselves by repeating the same drivel again and again send me to sleep... Still waiting for a proper rebuttal from you instead of emotional drivel like this "1. I didn't deny that Europe was in economic decline (for information - that includes the UK). 2. The fact that you repeatedly insist that I agree with your ongoing mantra obviously means that you agree with all the other points I raised 3. Given all the above - we are singing from the same hymnbook. Have a nice day | |||
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"It was the right thing. The EU is on a decline, thanks to overregulation. And they are too rigid for change as it's hard to get consensus among different countries. Now, the UK has its economic and political decision under its own control. It does come at the cost of easier trade with the other EU countries. But overall, the tradeoff is worth it. Pray tell me how this economic and political decision under its own control has been used and how it has affected our lives for the better ? So far, the freedom has been used only to a smaller extent. Within the EU, we were down the path of a promised decline. Now, we at least have an option to course-correct without having to go through years of negotiation and bureaucracy with the EU. Yawn...... People trying to justify themselves by repeating the same drivel again and again send me to sleep... Still waiting for a proper rebuttal from you instead of emotional drivel like this
1. I didn't deny that Europe was in economic decline (for information - that includes the UK).
"That's because the UK was in the EU for too long. And the politicians are unwilling to remove the regulatory shackles. But at least, we can make decisions now faster than when we were in the EU. " 2. The fact that you repeatedly insist that I agree with your ongoing mantra obviously means that you agree with all the other points I raised 3. Given all the above - we are singing from the same hymnbook. Have a nice day" The only other point you raised was that empires fall anyway and we have to just take the decline and move on. If that's your view, then being in the EU or being not in the EU shouldn't bother you. | |||
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"It was the right thing. The EU is on a decline, thanks to overregulation. And they are too rigid for change as it's hard to get consensus among different countries. Now, the UK has its economic and political decision under its own control. It does come at the cost of easier trade with the other EU countries. But overall, the tradeoff is worth it. Pray tell me how this economic and political decision under its own control has been used and how it has affected our lives for the better ? So far, the freedom has been used only to a smaller extent. Within the EU, we were down the path of a promised decline. Now, we at least have an option to course-correct without having to go through years of negotiation and bureaucracy with the EU. Yawn...... People trying to justify themselves by repeating the same drivel again and again send me to sleep... Still waiting for a proper rebuttal from you instead of emotional drivel like this
1. I didn't deny that Europe was in economic decline (for information - that includes the UK).
That's because the UK was in the EU for too long. And the politicians are unwilling to remove the regulatory shackles. But at least, we can make decisions now faster than when we were in the EU.
2. The fact that you repeatedly insist that I agree with your ongoing mantra obviously means that you agree with all the other points I raised
3. Given all the above - we are singing from the same hymnbook.
Have a nice day
The only other point you raised was that empires fall anyway and we have to just take the decline and move on. If that's your view, then being in the EU or being not in the EU shouldn't bother you."The UK gained from being in the EU. Economically, it was in a mess prior to joining. Being in or out of the EU at this point in time makes no difference to me. I prefer that the UK stays out of the EU as the cost and risk (to the EU) to have the UK (with it's mixed up politics) back in is too great for very little gain. It is the UK (or 60% according to polls) of the people who want to rejoin. I am not one of those 60%. Better the UK rejoins by stealth as it is doing currently and makes deals which suit both parts piecemeal. I think however; that we have stayed far from the point and question from the OP. | |||
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" The UK gained from being in the EU. Economically, it was in a mess prior to joining. Being in or out of the EU at this point in time makes no difference to me. " It makes a lot of difference to others " I prefer that the UK stays out of the EU as the cost and risk (to the EU) to have the UK (with it's mixed up politics) back in is too great for very little gain. " You don't need the UK to screw up the EU. It's a sinking ship anyway. The question is whether we want to sink along with them. " I think however; that we have stayed far from the point and question from the OP." You are the one who keeps moving goal post. You asked about how EU centrally controlled the economic policies. You asked about my statement on the EU being in decline. You then volunteered to reply to my reply to someone else's post. Then you said you never denied that EU was in decline. And I did was answering your questions. My argument remains the same. The EU is in a terminal decline. Their bureaucratic model means they aren't going to reverse the decline anytime sooner. The UK now has the opportunity to reverse that decline as we aren't shackled by the EU anymore. | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind? I don't regret voting Leave because I wanted the UK to have greater strategic autonomy over its economic policy. I'd vote the same now, although I will concede and knew at the time in 2015 it wouldn't necessarily be better for the UK to leave the EU, certainly not in the short-medium term and only if a bunch of certain circumstances materialised. What I regret is that, instead of using that freedom to pursue a long-term industrial strategy similar in spirit to successful medium-sized trading economies like Japan or South Korea, successive governments largely lurched from one crisis to the next, short termism. Mainly because of the systematic lies that come from the people elected to enact these positions, but I'm not making this about the tory/labour/UK political incompetence. It would only be the "right thing" imo if the argument for leaving was greater control over industrial, trade and regulatory policy, then simply leaving wasn't enough. There needed to be a coherent long-term economic strategy afterwards. Many Leave voters expected that; many Remain voters argued it would be difficult to achieve. Regardless of which side someone was on, it's understandable why people look back and see years of political instability rather than a clear national plan. So there is no "right thing" because so far we have had a shit show, when it really needed a clear long term, 10-20-30 year plan. The UK's fundamentally different from Japan's, so copying its policies wholesale wouldn't make sense, or even work necessarily. But there are BIG lessons that can be learned from countries that have managed to combine openness to trade with a strong sense of economic sovereignty. For example *Be open to trade, but identify strategic industries and protect them with tariffs from foreign competitors. *Think in decades rather than election cycles, giving confidence in investment. *Invest heavily in skills, apprenticeships, engineering/infrastructure projects *This requires vast domestic investment and productivity, rather than thinking let's squeeze financial services and property for more of this make believe growth were told it provides. Brexit was never going to be judged solely on the referendum result, it was always going to be judged on what the UK did with the opportunities and trade-offs that followed, ie f**k all folded in half. 😂 Good point and well written but why couldn't the UK do that whilst part of the EU?" Because the EU is a neoliberalist cabal, and the UK shouldn’t be associated with that if it wants to stop being humiliated. | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind? I don't regret voting Leave because I wanted the UK to have greater strategic autonomy over its economic policy. I'd vote the same now, although I will concede and knew at the time in 2015 it wouldn't necessarily be better for the UK to leave the EU, certainly not in the short-medium term and only if a bunch of certain circumstances materialised. What I regret is that, instead of using that freedom to pursue a long-term industrial strategy similar in spirit to successful medium-sized trading economies like Japan or South Korea, successive governments largely lurched from one crisis to the next, short termism. Mainly because of the systematic lies that come from the people elected to enact these positions, but I'm not making this about the tory/labour/UK political incompetence. It would only be the "right thing" imo if the argument for leaving was greater control over industrial, trade and regulatory policy, then simply leaving wasn't enough. There needed to be a coherent long-term economic strategy afterwards. Many Leave voters expected that; many Remain voters argued it would be difficult to achieve. Regardless of which side someone was on, it's understandable why people look back and see years of political instability rather than a clear national plan. So there is no "right thing" because so far we have had a shit show, when it really needed a clear long term, 10-20-30 year plan. The UK's fundamentally different from Japan's, so copying its policies wholesale wouldn't make sense, or even work necessarily. But there are BIG lessons that can be learned from countries that have managed to combine openness to trade with a strong sense of economic sovereignty. For example *Be open to trade, but identify strategic industries and protect them with tariffs from foreign competitors. *Think in decades rather than election cycles, giving confidence in investment. *Invest heavily in skills, apprenticeships, engineering/infrastructure projects *This requires vast domestic investment and productivity, rather than thinking let's squeeze financial services and property for more of this make believe growth were told it provides. Brexit was never going to be judged solely on the referendum result, it was always going to be judged on what the UK did with the opportunities and trade-offs that followed, ie f**k all folded in half. 😂 Good point and well written but why couldn't the UK do that whilst part of the EU? Because the EU is a neoliberalist cabal, and the UK shouldn’t be associated with that if it wants to stop being humiliated. " What a load of tosh | |||
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"We have the Brexit vote and decided to leave… So… did we do the right thing? Have you either way changed your mind? I don't regret voting Leave because I wanted the UK to have greater strategic autonomy over its economic policy. I'd vote the same now, although I will concede and knew at the time in 2015 it wouldn't necessarily be better for the UK to leave the EU, certainly not in the short-medium term and only if a bunch of certain circumstances materialised. What I regret is that, instead of using that freedom to pursue a long-term industrial strategy similar in spirit to successful medium-sized trading economies like Japan or South Korea, successive governments largely lurched from one crisis to the next, short termism. Mainly because of the systematic lies that come from the people elected to enact these positions, but I'm not making this about the tory/labour/UK political incompetence. It would only be the "right thing" imo if the argument for leaving was greater control over industrial, trade and regulatory policy, then simply leaving wasn't enough. There needed to be a coherent long-term economic strategy afterwards. Many Leave voters expected that; many Remain voters argued it would be difficult to achieve. Regardless of which side someone was on, it's understandable why people look back and see years of political instability rather than a clear national plan. So there is no "right thing" because so far we have had a shit show, when it really needed a clear long term, 10-20-30 year plan. The UK's fundamentally different from Japan's, so copying its policies wholesale wouldn't make sense, or even work necessarily. But there are BIG lessons that can be learned from countries that have managed to combine openness to trade with a strong sense of economic sovereignty. For example *Be open to trade, but identify strategic industries and protect them with tariffs from foreign competitors. *Think in decades rather than election cycles, giving confidence in investment. *Invest heavily in skills, apprenticeships, engineering/infrastructure projects *This requires vast domestic investment and productivity, rather than thinking let's squeeze financial services and property for more of this make believe growth were told it provides. Brexit was never going to be judged solely on the referendum result, it was always going to be judged on what the UK did with the opportunities and trade-offs that followed, ie f**k all folded in half. 😂 Good point and well written but why couldn't the UK do that whilst part of the EU? Because the EU is a neoliberalist cabal, and the UK shouldn’t be associated with that if it wants to stop being humiliated. What a load of tosh" You're entitled to your opinion | |||
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"Because the EU is a neoliberalist cabal ..." Crikey! I'd love to hear your definition of neoliberalist if you think the EU counts as such. | |||
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"Because the EU is a neoliberalist cabal ... Crikey! I'd love to hear your definition of neoliberalist if you think the EU counts as such." Doubt you'd understand if I did | |||
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"Because the EU is a neoliberalist cabal ... Crikey! I'd love to hear your definition of neoliberalist if you think the EU counts as such." I have seen "neoliberal" being used as a derogatory word by both the left and the right. I am not sure if both of them mean the same thing or not. | |||
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"Because the EU is a neoliberalist cabal ..." "Crikey! I'd love to hear your definition of neoliberalist if you think the EU counts as such." "Doubt you'd understand if I did" We won't know until you tell us The definition I use is: an advocate of free markets and low government intervention, with consequent deregulation and privatisation. You'll notice that my definition doesn't describe the EU very well. What definition are you using? | |||
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