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"there is a shortage of good male role models for boys growing up so tend to drift towards porn Andrew Tate etc " You may be right. But you can choose your role model and whether it’s from sport, the military, business, academia or something else we are not short of choice. Some people find it easier to drift to the bottom rung of the ladder. Pulling them up can be hard but there are many high profile role models that have come from poor backgrounds to be looked up to. Look at how many youth clubs and libraries have been closed down due to lack of funding. Or is it weak parenting ? | |||
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"there is a shortage of good male role models for boys growing up so tend to drift towards porn Andrew Tate etc You may be right. But you can choose your role model and whether it’s from sport, the military, business, academia or something else we are not short of choice. Some people find it easier to drift to the bottom rung of the ladder. Pulling them up can be hard but there are many high profile role models that have come from poor backgrounds to be looked up to. Look at how many youth clubs and libraries have been closed down due to lack of funding. Or is it weak parenting ? " I agree that we choose our role models to an extent. We see something in them that attracts us, that we identify with or that reinforces what we already believe but I think we can also be influenced by persuasive, populist arguments by charismatic figures. It seems that it's poor role models who have the loudest voice and largest social media presence though | |||
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"Yes but we humans often treat the symptom rather than the cause. How would this emasculate boys? " Well if this is done incorrectly it could lead young minds to believe all men are evil and being masculine is a bad thing which has the potential to cause more issues than it's solving. Misandry can be just as harmful as misogynism so a balanced approach needs to be used. | |||
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"Yes but we humans often treat the symptom rather than the cause. How would this emasculate boys? Well if this is done incorrectly it could lead young minds to believe all men are evil and being masculine is a bad thing which has the potential to cause more issues than it's solving. Misandry can be just as harmful as misogynism so a balanced approach needs to be used. " Ah ok, I understand. I think we've got a long way to go before misandry catches up with misogyny unless you're a single man under 30 on fab  | |||
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"Yes but we humans often treat the symptom rather than the cause. How would this emasculate boys? Well if this is done incorrectly it could lead young minds to believe all men are evil and being masculine is a bad thing which has the potential to cause more issues than it's solving. Misandry can be just as harmful as misogynism so a balanced approach needs to be used. Ah ok, I understand. I think we've got a long way to go before misandry catches up with misogyny unless you're a single man under 30 on fab "True but we are talking about young minds easily influenced my concern is that young men will grow up confused about their identity if they are worried about being seen as a "man" alternatively and more worrying it could create more hatred towards women if they feel that they are being singled out as evil. | |||
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"Yes but we humans often treat the symptom rather than the cause. How would this emasculate boys? Well if this is done incorrectly it could lead young minds to believe all men are evil and being masculine is a bad thing which has the potential to cause more issues than it's solving. Misandry can be just as harmful as misogynism so a balanced approach needs to be used. Ah ok, I understand. I think we've got a long way to go before misandry catches up with misogyny unless you're a single man under 30 on fab
True but we are talking about young minds easily influenced my concern is that young men will grow up confused about their identity if they are worried about being seen as a "man" alternatively and more worrying it could create more hatred towards women if they feel that they are being singled out as evil. "I think if we show everyone not just boys and men that women deserve respect there won't be a problem. If we concentrate on good and decent 'masculine' qualities (there's a whole other debate there) what's the problem ? | |||
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"Yes but we humans often treat the symptom rather than the cause. How would this emasculate boys? Well if this is done incorrectly it could lead young minds to believe all men are evil and being masculine is a bad thing which has the potential to cause more issues than it's solving. Misandry can be just as harmful as misogynism so a balanced approach needs to be used. Ah ok, I understand. I think we've got a long way to go before misandry catches up with misogyny unless you're a single man under 30 on fab
True but we are talking about young minds easily influenced my concern is that young men will grow up confused about their identity if they are worried about being seen as a "man" alternatively and more worrying it could create more hatred towards women if they feel that they are being singled out as evil. "That's the problem though, young males have been influenced in a direction that's not healthy nor safe for young women in society.. My concern is not for what might happen (which is an unknown and part of the reason this or something is long overdue) it's for women who are being murdered by abusing males and ra#ed at an alarming rate.. | |||
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"I said this when the online safety act came into force. I am saying the same again. We need to ban smartphones for kids. They must have access to internet only under supervision. This will reasonably solve the porn problem (though it won't solve it fully) and will also keep scum bags like Tate outside of easy reach. " I sort of agree but as with anything that gets banned people are adaptable and nowadays have the tech savvy to get round it plus banning usually makes whatever it is more popular (would accept that's a bit of a 'cats out the bag already' with the demographic this is aimed at).. Their whole future is tech, school lunches, homework etc is normal now and going forward even more so.. At some point access is going to happen and, those young men who are inclined to abuse will be thinking that way regardless.. Unfettered access to anything isn't good and greater controls at home and a national ban on access in school unless it's medical or certain domestic issues like being a carer for a parent can be set up.. The tech companies have the tools but unless they are sanctioned financially then they will only pay lip service.. Be interesting to see what happens in Australia in the future with their ban,if that spreads to other countries the tech companies will have to do more than they are at present.. | |||
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"Yes but we humans often treat the symptom rather than the cause. How would this emasculate boys?" "Well if this is done incorrectly it could lead young minds to believe all men are evil and being masculine is a bad thing which has the potential to cause more issues than it's solving. Misandry can be just as harmful as misogynism so a balanced approach needs to be used." "Ah ok, I understand. I think we've got a long way to go before misandry catches up with misogyny ..." I was in a pub the other day where there were 2 men and 5 women. The female staff member was struggling with a heavy object and neither of us blokes noticed. One of the women noticed and started berating us blokes for not helping. The other bloke got up and went to help only to be told that he was being patronising, and had deliberately waited till the real work had been done. The women spent the next 20 minutes talking about how all of life's ills were down to men. In particular how men had set the limits for heavy objects specifically to exclude women from the workplace. Us blokes being old and experienced just kept our mouths shut till it was all over. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a young male being told that men in the past had oppressed women, and he must therefore pay for his father's sins, despite not having been alive when those things happened. My point is that there's an awful lot of misandry out there, but it gets excused because women have been oppressed for a long time and "it's their turn". | |||
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"Yes but we humans often treat the symptom rather than the cause. How would this emasculate boys? Well if this is done incorrectly it could lead young minds to believe all men are evil and being masculine is a bad thing which has the potential to cause more issues than it's solving. Misandry can be just as harmful as misogynism so a balanced approach needs to be used. Ah ok, I understand. I think we've got a long way to go before misandry catches up with misogyny ... I was in a pub the other day where there were 2 men and 5 women. The female staff member was struggling with a heavy object and neither of us blokes noticed. One of the women noticed and started berating us blokes for not helping. The other bloke got up and went to help only to be told that he was being patronising, and had deliberately waited till the real work had been done. The women spent the next 20 minutes talking about how all of life's ills were down to men. In particular how men had set the limits for heavy objects specifically to exclude women from the workplace. Us blokes being old and experienced just kept our mouths shut till it was all over. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a young male being told that men in the past had oppressed women, and he must therefore pay for his father's sins, despite not having been alive when those things happened. My point is that there's an awful lot of misandry out there, but it gets excused because women have been oppressed for a long time and "it's their turn"." There's a lot of casual misandry you hear a lot of women use phrases such as "well what can you expect from a man". I'm not saying thats acceptable but it seems to me that every time anyone suggests addressing the very real problem of violence against women by men, men come out and say "yeah but what about us, women don't like us holding the door open any more". In other words protect women but men must not be inconvenienced or criticised in any way in case they get upset and so the cycle continues. Men can't change because 'women' | |||
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"Yes but we humans often treat the symptom rather than the cause. How would this emasculate boys? Well if this is done incorrectly it could lead young minds to believe all men are evil and being masculine is a bad thing which has the potential to cause more issues than it's solving. Misandry can be just as harmful as misogynism so a balanced approach needs to be used. Ah ok, I understand. I think we've got a long way to go before misandry catches up with misogyny ... I was in a pub the other day where there were 2 men and 5 women. The female staff member was struggling with a heavy object and neither of us blokes noticed. One of the women noticed and started berating us blokes for not helping. The other bloke got up and went to help only to be told that he was being patronising, and had deliberately waited till the real work had been done. The women spent the next 20 minutes talking about how all of life's ills were down to men. In particular how men had set the limits for heavy objects specifically to exclude women from the workplace. Us blokes being old and experienced just kept our mouths shut till it was all over. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a young male being told that men in the past had oppressed women, and he must therefore pay for his father's sins, despite not having been alive when those things happened. My point is that there's an awful lot of misandry out there, but it gets excused because women have been oppressed for a long time and "it's their turn"." Casual misandry is of course out there to a degree but I'm not convinced because of one anecdotal account that there's an awful lot of it.. And let's be honest if it's the same level of misandry in relation to misogyny then that's not the issue that needs addressing is it.. Men are not being assaulted and abu#ed, ra#ed and murdered to the levels that men are the perpetrators of towards women.. Whataboutery is a cop out .. | |||
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"I was in a pub the other day where there were 2 men and 5 women. The female staff member was struggling with a heavy object and neither of us blokes noticed. One of the women noticed and started berating us blokes for not helping. The other bloke got up and went to help only to be told that he was being patronising, and had deliberately waited till the real work had been done. The women spent the next 20 minutes talking about how all of life's ills were down to men. In particular how men had set the limits for heavy objects specifically to exclude women from the workplace. Us blokes being old and experienced just kept our mouths shut till it was all over. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a young male being told that men in the past had oppressed women, and he must therefore pay for his father's sins, despite not having been alive when those things happened. My point is that there's an awful lot of misandry out there, but it gets excused because women have been oppressed for a long time and "it's their turn"." "There's a lot of casual misandry you hear a lot of women use phrases such as "well what can you expect from a man". I'm not saying thats acceptable but it seems to me that every time anyone suggests addressing the very real problem of violence against women by men, men come out and say "yeah but what about us, women don't like us holding the door open any more". In other words protect women but men must not be inconvenienced or criticised in any way in case they get upset and so the cycle continues. Men can't change because 'women'" That's a ridiculous twisting of my words. All I said was that there's a lot of casual misandry about. I said nothing that excused violence perpetrated by men. Some people round here seem to think that every discussion should be twisted round to their own pet hobby horse. | |||
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"Men are not being assaulted and abu#ed, ra#ed and murdered to the levels that men are the perpetrators of towards women.." This is true. Men are far more likely to experience these things. Men are nearly 10 times more likely to be assaulted, and are 3 times more likely to be murdered. Women are 3 times more likely to be raped, but the incidence of male rape is increasing much faster than for females. | |||
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"I was in a pub the other day where there were 2 men and 5 women. The female staff member was struggling with a heavy object and neither of us blokes noticed. One of the women noticed and started berating us blokes for not helping. The other bloke got up and went to help only to be told that he was being patronising, and had deliberately waited till the real work had been done. The women spent the next 20 minutes talking about how all of life's ills were down to men. In particular how men had set the limits for heavy objects specifically to exclude women from the workplace. Us blokes being old and experienced just kept our mouths shut till it was all over. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a young male being told that men in the past had oppressed women, and he must therefore pay for his father's sins, despite not having been alive when those things happened. My point is that there's an awful lot of misandry out there, but it gets excused because women have been oppressed for a long time and "it's their turn". There's a lot of casual misandry you hear a lot of women use phrases such as "well what can you expect from a man". I'm not saying thats acceptable but it seems to me that every time anyone suggests addressing the very real problem of violence against women by men, men come out and say "yeah but what about us, women don't like us holding the door open any more". In other words protect women but men must not be inconvenienced or criticised in any way in case they get upset and so the cycle continues. Men can't change because 'women' That's a ridiculous twisting of my words. All I said was that there's a lot of casual misandry about. I said nothing that excused violence perpetrated by men. Some people round here seem to think that every discussion should be twisted round to their own pet hobby horse." I don't believe I have twisted your words. I'm attempting to discuss what is obviously a sensitive subject for some men. | |||
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"Men are not being assaulted and abu#ed, ra#ed and murdered to the levels that men are the perpetrators of towards women.. This is true. Men are far more likely to experience these things. Men are nearly 10 times more likely to be assaulted, and are 3 times more likely to be murdered. Women are 3 times more likely to be ra#ed, but the incidence of male ra#e is increasing much faster than for females." Women are not killing men nor are they ra#ing women, it's other men doing that.. It doesn't excuse not justify what's happening to women, not is it a good look to use male on male crime as a deflection.. | |||
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"Men are not being assaulted and abu#ed, ra#ed and murdered to the levels that men are the perpetrators of towards women.. This is true. Men are far more likely to experience these things. Men are nearly 10 times more likely to be assaulted, and are 3 times more likely to be murdered. Women are 3 times more likely to be ra#ed, but the incidence of male ra#e is increasing much faster than for females." What gender are the people carrying out these assaults? | |||
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"I was in a pub the other day where there were 2 men and 5 women. The female staff member was struggling with a heavy object and neither of us blokes noticed. One of the women noticed and started berating us blokes for not helping. The other bloke got up and went to help only to be told that he was being patronising, and had deliberately waited till the real work had been done. The women spent the next 20 minutes talking about how all of life's ills were down to men. In particular how men had set the limits for heavy objects specifically to exclude women from the workplace. Us blokes being old and experienced just kept our mouths shut till it was all over. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a young male being told that men in the past had oppressed women, and he must therefore pay for his father's sins, despite not having been alive when those things happened. My point is that there's an awful lot of misandry out there, but it gets excused because women have been oppressed for a long time and "it's their turn". There's a lot of casual misandry you hear a lot of women use phrases such as "well what can you expect from a man". I'm not saying thats acceptable but it seems to me that every time anyone suggests addressing the very real problem of violence against women by men, men come out and say "yeah but what about us, women don't like us holding the door open any more". In other words protect women but men must not be inconvenienced or criticised in any way in case they get upset and so the cycle continues. Men can't change because 'women' That's a ridiculous twisting of my words. All I said was that there's a lot of casual misandry about. I said nothing that excused violence perpetrated by men. Some people round here seem to think that every discussion should be twisted round to their own pet hobby horse. I don't believe I have twisted your words. I'm attempting to discuss what is obviously a sensitive subject for some men. " As a bloke it is but it's a state of affairs that we can't shy away from just because it's sensitive and makes us look at the toxicity that some men live with as a way of life.. If it makes us look at ourselves (and hands up we've all said stuff that we shouldn't ) and address that then a bit of embarrassment and discomfort is ok | |||
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"I was in a pub the other day where there were 2 men and 5 women. The female staff member was struggling with a heavy object and neither of us blokes noticed. One of the women noticed and started berating us blokes for not helping. The other bloke got up and went to help only to be told that he was being patronising, and had deliberately waited till the real work had been done. The women spent the next 20 minutes talking about how all of life's ills were down to men. In particular how men had set the limits for heavy objects specifically to exclude women from the workplace. Us blokes being old and experienced just kept our mouths shut till it was all over. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a young male being told that men in the past had oppressed women, and he must therefore pay for his father's sins, despite not having been alive when those things happened. My point is that there's an awful lot of misandry out there, but it gets excused because women have been oppressed for a long time and "it's their turn". There's a lot of casual misandry you hear a lot of women use phrases such as "well what can you expect from a man". I'm not saying thats acceptable but it seems to me that every time anyone suggests addressing the very real problem of violence against women by men, men come out and say "yeah but what about us, women don't like us holding the door open any more". In other words protect women but men must not be inconvenienced or criticised in any way in case they get upset and so the cycle continues. Men can't change because 'women' That's a ridiculous twisting of my words. All I said was that there's a lot of casual misandry about. I said nothing that excused violence perpetrated by men. Some people round here seem to think that every discussion should be twisted round to their own pet hobby horse. I don't believe I have twisted your words. I'm attempting to discuss what is obviously a sensitive subject for some men. As a bloke it is but it's a state of affairs that we can't shy away from just because it's sensitive and makes us look at the toxicity that some men live with as a way of life.. If it makes us look at ourselves (and hands up we've all said stuff that we shouldn't ) and address that then a bit of embarrassment and discomfort is ok "Agreed! | |||
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"Men are not being assaulted and abu#ed, ra#ed and murdered to the levels that men are the perpetrators of towards women.." "This is true. Men are far more likely to experience these things. Men are nearly 10 times more likely to be assaulted, and are 3 times more likely to be murdered. Women are 3 times more likely to be ra#ed, but the incidence of male ra#e is increasing much faster than for females." "What gender are the people carrying out these assaults?" They are overwhelmingly male. But that only matters if you are seeking to make the case that women are special in some way. You could equally say that the offenders are overwhelmingly below the age of 40, and that old people need protecting from the young. Or that the offenders are overwhelmingly from poorly educated backgrounds, and that the educated need to be protected from them. Saying that men commit most of a specific sort of crime and therefore all men must be punished is the same logic that justifies stop and search of people with certain skin colours because they're more likely to be criminals. | |||
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"I think the point is if we can change the attitude at a young enough age to respect women and men and each other. Unnecessary violence and abuse can be avoided PARTICULARLY against girls and women. I do think it's wrong that we are once again allowing the dilution of parental responsibility. Children should be at school to be educated, learn maths reading and writing, why should it be the responsibility of school to teach a child what the parents should be doing? " I think it's a mistake to assume parents aren't doing what they can and it's being left to the schools and the government.. As grandparents we know from discussions with close and extended family that it's up there on the worries all parents have.. Could some parents do more, possibly yes although such things aren't exactly quantifiable in any meaningful way probably but with a greater input from all schools then that's another support for parents who might benefit from that.. | |||
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"Men are not being assaulted and abu#ed, ra#ed and murdered to the levels that men are the perpetrators of towards women.. This is true. Men are far more likely to experience these things. Men are nearly 10 times more likely to be assaulted, and are 3 times more likely to be murdered. Women are 3 times more likely to be ra#ed, but the incidence of male ra#e is increasing much faster than for females. What gender are the people carrying out these assaults? They are overwhelmingly male. But that only matters if you are seeking to make the case that women are special in some way. You could equally say that the offenders are overwhelmingly below the age of 40, and that old people need protecting from the young. Or that the offenders are overwhelmingly from poorly educated backgrounds, and that the educated need to be protected from them. Saying that men commit most of a specific sort of crime and therefore all men must be punished is the same logic that justifies stop and search of people with certain skin colours because they're more likely to be criminals." No one has said all men should be punished.. 
I mean come on ..
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"Men are not being assaulted and abu#ed, ra#ed and murdered to the levels that men are the perpetrators of towards women.. This is true. Men are far more likely to experience these things. Men are nearly 10 times more likely to be assaulted, and are 3 times more likely to be murdered. Women are 3 times more likely to be ra#ed, but the incidence of male ra#e is increasing much faster than for females. What gender are the people carrying out these assaults? They are overwhelmingly male. But that only matters if you are seeking to make the case that women are special in some way. You could equally say that the offenders are overwhelmingly below the age of 40, and that old people need protecting from the young. Or that the offenders are overwhelmingly from poorly educated backgrounds, and that the educated need to be protected from them. Saying that men commit most of a specific sort of crime and therefore all men must be punished is the same logic that justifies stop and search of people with certain skin colours because they're more likely to be criminals." Could you point me to where I'm saying that all men be punished? Unless you believe that this initiative is a punishment | |||
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"No one has said all men should be punished.." Then why do people keep saying that women need to be protected from men? Why aren't we saying that people need to be protected from criminals? If we're not seeking to stigmatise all men, why keep pointing out that the criminals are mostly men? What purpose is served by labelling violence as "the very real problem of violence against women by men"? | |||
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"No one has said all men should be punished.. Then why do people keep saying that women need to be protected from men? Why aren't we saying that people need to be protected from criminals? If we're not seeking to stigmatise all men, why keep pointing out that the criminals are mostly men? What purpose is served by labelling violence as "the very real problem of violence against women by men"?" No one is saying all men should be punished.. And no one is saying all men are the problem.. You are clearly trying to talk down, deflect and go into whataboutery from what is a shitty state of affairs in our society for some strange reason.. If you can't understand that women do right now need to get protected from some men and that some women will be ra#ed and beaten and murdered today by some men that's a concern.. It's not saying you or I are of the same mindset as those men who carry out such actions if we accept the very simple and plain facts.. | |||
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"No one has said all men should be punished.. Then why do people keep saying that women need to be protected from men? Why aren't we saying that people need to be protected from criminals? If we're not seeking to stigmatise all men, why keep pointing out that the criminals are mostly men? What purpose is served by labelling violence as "the very real problem of violence against women by men"?" Because it brings to public attention 'the very real problem of violence against women by men'. If you don't believe that this should be addressed or you have a better way of addressing it then say so. I think knife crime, romance fraud, internet scams should all be addressed too but the current topic of conversation is about women who suffer abuse at the hands of men | |||
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"No one has said all men should be punished.. Then why do people keep saying that women need to be protected from men? Why aren't we saying that people need to be protected from criminals? If we're not seeking to stigmatise all men, why keep pointing out that the criminals are mostly men? What purpose is served by labelling violence as "the very real problem of violence against women by men"? Because it brings to public attention 'the very real problem of violence against women by men'. If you don't believe that this should be addressed or you have a better way of addressing it then say so. I think knife crime, romance fraud, internet scams should all be addressed too but the current topic of conversation is about women who suffer abuse at the hands of men " It's not just women it's girls as well. Only this week a 9 year old girl stabbed to death by a 15 year old boy. | |||
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"You are clearly trying to talk down, deflect and go into whataboutery from what is a shitty state of affairs in our society for some strange reason.." I'm not doing that at all. We do have a problem with violence in the UK, and we should be doing something about it. But identifying the problem as lying with one half of society and not bothering to narrow it down any further won't help us to address that problem. "If you can't understand that women do right now need to get protected from some men and that some women will be ra#ed and beaten and murdered today by some men that's a concern.." I do understand that, just as I acknowledge that some men will get raped or beaten or murdered today, and they also deserve protection. I abhor violence just as much as I imagine you do. But I'm not willing to say that some victims are less worthy of our compassion just because, through no fault of their own, they happen to be the same gender as the perpetrator. | |||
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"You are clearly trying to talk down, deflect and go into whataboutery from what is a shitty state of affairs in our society for some strange reason.. I'm not doing that at all. We do have a problem with violence in the UK, and we should be doing something about it. But identifying the problem as lying with one half of society and not bothering to narrow it down any further won't help us to address that problem. If you can't understand that women do right now need to get protected from some men and that some women will be ra#ed and beaten and murdered today by some men that's a concern.. I do understand that, just as I acknowledge that some men will get ra#ed or beaten or murdered today, and they also deserve protection. I abhor violence just as much as I imagine you do. But I'm not willing to say that some victims are less worthy of our compassion just because, through no fault of their own, they happen to be the same gender as the perpetrator." No one is saying some victims are less worthy of our compassion.. Are they? | |||
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"No one is saying some victims are less worthy of our compassion.." Then why are we singling out one group of victims and ignoring the other group? | |||
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"No one is saying some victims are less worthy of our compassion.. Then why are we singling out one group of victims and ignoring the other group?" No one is being ignored | |||
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"No one has said all men should be punished.. Then why do people keep saying that women need to be protected from men? Why aren't we saying that people need to be protected from criminals? If we're not seeking to stigmatise all men, why keep pointing out that the criminals are mostly men? What purpose is served by labelling violence as "the very real problem of violence against women by men"? Because it brings to public attention 'the very real problem of violence against women by men'. If you don't believe that this should be addressed or you have a better way of addressing it then say so. I think knife crime, romance fraud, internet scams should all be addressed too but the current topic of conversation is about women who suffer abuse at the hands of men It's not just women it's girls as well. Only this week a 9 year old girl stabbed to death by a 15 year old boy. " Yep | |||
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"No one is saying some victims are less worthy of our compassion.. Then why are we singling out one group of victims and ignoring the other group?" This conversation is about a particular type of violence. If anyone started a thread about knife crime in which predominantly men were victims the conversation would single out that group of victims. | |||
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In fact of the two sexes women can be far far nastier to each other on a daily basis than most men are to each other.
So yeah, take your cries of mysogeny and shove them up your misandry! | |||
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"I'm not sure when it became taboo to call out bad parenting, but I think we are at that point. " Not sure it is taboo. Certainly not school teachers jobs to be parenting. For anyone who can remember it, Sgt Rae (bad lads army) turned around everyone who’d taken some wrong turns. | |||
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"If you look at the legal definition of 🍇, women cannot commit it. They can commit DA by penetration. If the rate of male 🍇 is increasing, it's not because women are the perpetrators. Also, could the rise in numbers be due to more reporting, better recording as well as increased incidence rates? Either way, the exponential increase is still nowhere near that experienced by women. I've said previously, I do not condone violence from anyone. It's not a competition, but the data time and again demonstrates that men are the main perpetrators of violence. So how do we address this as a society? " SA, not DA, that's something else again! | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? " The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. " Really?????? | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? " Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. " The levels of violence that occur nightly in every town and city would perhaps suggest otherwise.. The crime stats might shed some light but we all know a lot goes unreported.. | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. The levels of violence that occur nightly in every town and city would perhaps suggest otherwise.. The crime stats might shed some light but we all know a lot goes unreported.. " Fighting after the pubs turn out is not what I'm referring to really but it leans into it. Young men are targets of violence too frequently and they need to know that controlled force can be acceptable to protect themselves. That is why it is so important that any educational reinforcement of behaviour is measured. State interventions rarely come without longterm issues. | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? " Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? " Controlled and required. If everything is considered in 1 dimension there are no alternatives. | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? Controlled and required. If everything is considered in 1 dimension there are no alternatives. " Who determines whether it's controlled or required? | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. The levels of violence that occur nightly in every town and city would perhaps suggest otherwise.. The crime stats might shed some light but we all know a lot goes unreported.. Fighting after the pubs turn out is not what I'm referring to really but it leans into it. Young men are targets of violence too frequently and they need to know that controlled force can be acceptable to protect themselves. That is why it is so important that any educational reinforcement of behaviour is measured. State interventions rarely come without longterm issues. " They are yes, the vast majority of times by other young men.. So perhaps your idea that we are edging towards a demographic who are being indoctrinated that all force/ aggression is bad is only that.. An idea? If there's any actual data to support it then that would be interesting and by whom etc.. Btw males in England and Wales account for 84% of all arrests mostly for violence against the person.. 93% of all convictions for murder are by males and 99% of ra#es.. | |||
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"I've said previously, I do not condone violence from anyone. It's not a competition, but the data time and again demonstrates that men are the main perpetrators of violence." And what useful insight do you think you're making with that last sentence? It's just as accurate to say that the data time and again demonstrates that white people are the main perpetrators of violence. Is that a useful thing to say? | |||
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"I've said previously, I do not condone violence from anyone. It's not a competition, but the data time and again demonstrates that men are the main perpetrators of violence. And what useful insight do you think you're making with that last sentence? It's just as accurate to say that the data time and again demonstrates that white people are the main perpetrators of violence. Is that a useful thing to say?" Two things can be true at the same time! | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. The levels of violence that occur nightly in every town and city would perhaps suggest otherwise.. The crime stats might shed some light but we all know a lot goes unreported.. Fighting after the pubs turn out is not what I'm referring to really but it leans into it. Young men are targets of violence too frequently and they need to know that controlled force can be acceptable to protect themselves. That is why it is so important that any educational reinforcement of behaviour is measured. State interventions rarely come without longterm issues. They are yes, the vast majority of times by other young men.. So perhaps your idea that we are edging towards a demographic who are being indoctrinated that all force/ aggression is bad is only that.. An idea? If there's any actual data to support it then that would be interesting and by whom etc.. Btw males in England and Wales account for 84% of all arrests mostly for violence against the person.. 93% of all convictions for murder are by males and 99% of ra#es.." What does the stat 84% mean in real terms? Maybe what that % is compared to the young male population would be good to know. I wasn't talking about the R word or violence towards females I thought I had made that clear? My comment was on how the scheme is administered is critical. | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? Controlled and required. If everything is considered in 1 dimension there are no alternatives. Who determines whether it's controlled or required? " Is this a genuine question? | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? Controlled and required. If everything is considered in 1 dimension there are no alternatives. Who determines whether it's controlled or required? Is this a genuine question? " Why wouldn't it be? Maybe you could give an example of what is controlled and required aggression and appropriate applications? | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? Controlled and required. If everything is considered in 1 dimension there are no alternatives. Who determines whether it's controlled or required? Is this a genuine question? Why wouldn't it be? Maybe you could give an example of what is controlled and required aggression and appropriate applications? " I'm sure you understand this without my explanation? If you don't please look it up and lets follow on from that point | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. The levels of violence that occur nightly in every town and city would perhaps suggest otherwise.. The crime stats might shed some light but we all know a lot goes unreported.. Fighting after the pubs turn out is not what I'm referring to really but it leans into it. Young men are targets of violence too frequently and they need to know that controlled force can be acceptable to protect themselves. That is why it is so important that any educational reinforcement of behaviour is measured. State interventions rarely come without longterm issues. They are yes, the vast majority of times by other young men.. So perhaps your idea that we are edging towards a demographic who are being indoctrinated that all force/ aggression is bad is only that.. An idea? If there's any actual data to support it then that would be interesting and by whom etc.. Btw males in England and Wales account for 84% of all arrests mostly for violence against the person.. 93% of all convictions for murder are by males and 99% of ra#es.. What does the stat 84% mean in real terms? Maybe what that % is compared to the young male population would be good to know. I wasn't talking about the R word or violence towards females I thought I had made that clear? My comment was on how the scheme is administered is critical. " It means that of the 1.9 million violent crimes in the latest available data 2024 that 84% were committed by men.. Mostly upon other men but in DV assaults 1.6 million it's men on women.. Make violent crime and assault isn't just limited to punch ups so you can't ignore sexual assaults and Ra#es .. None of the easily available data supports your claim above that some sort of indoctrination is going on where young men believe the use of force and aggression is bad.. What leads you to make that claim please? | |||
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"It's not a competition, but the data time and again demonstrates that men are the main perpetrators of violence." I've never been the perpetrator of violence. Does that mean that I'm not a real man in your books? Look, no-one likes being stereotyped, and the moment you say "men" do this, or "men" do that, you risk losing the support of the men who could be your biggest allies. | |||
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"It's not a competition, but the data time and again demonstrates that men are the main perpetrators of violence. I've never been the perpetrator of violence. Does that mean that I'm not a real man in your books? Look, no-one likes being stereotyped, and the moment you say "men" do this, or "men" do that, you risk losing the support of the men who could be your biggest allies. " Omg!!!! Men are the MAIN perpetrators of violence (which is what I said), not ALL men. Not sure how that alienates allies? | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? Controlled and required. If everything is considered in 1 dimension there are no alternatives. Who determines whether it's controlled or required? Is this a genuine question? Why wouldn't it be? Maybe you could give an example of what is controlled and r#equired aggression and appropriate applications? I'm sure you understand this without my explanation? If you don't please look it up and lets follow on from that point "Oh dear, oh dear. If men involved in violence (that is a qualifier, before anyone starts!) were not emotional, the majority of violent crimes would not happen. How do you teach them to not let their emotions rule their actions? | |||
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"If Jess Phillips is in charge of this policy my wild guess is it'll be a complete disaster." I'd disagree. She is very bright understands the problem and has more empathy for others than many people do. | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? Controlled and required. If everything is considered in 1 dimension there are no alternatives. Who determines whether it's controlled or required? Is this a genuine question? Why wouldn't it be? Maybe you could give an example of what is controlled and r#equired aggression and appropriate applications? I'm sure you understand this without my explanation? If you don't please look it up and lets follow on from that point
Oh dear, oh dear.
If men involved in violence (that is a qualifier, before anyone starts!) were not emotional, the majority of violent crimes would not happen.
How do you teach them to not let their emotions rule their actions? "You still haven't looked into the very thing I said that as caused you you to argue with me. As I said if you look at the overall issue in 1 dimension there is nowhere to go to. | |||
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"So how do we address this as a society? The how is critical, what we don't want to end up with is a country of young men who are indoctrinated to believe all force / aggression is bad. We are edging closer to that already. Really?????? Yes, why do you find that to be so questionable? Oh, I don't know, because boys are disproportionately affected by violence, a trend unchanged over the past decade. In 2022/23, males accounted for 83% of children cautioned or convicted for violent offences, according to the Youth Endowment Fund. What force/aggression is acceptable? Controlled and required. If everything is considered in 1 dimension there are no alternatives. Who determines whether it's controlled or required? Is this a genuine question? Why wouldn't it be? Maybe you could give an example of what is controlled and r#equired aggression and appropriate applications? I'm sure you understand this without my explanation? If you don't please look it up and lets follow on from that point
Oh dear, oh dear.
If men involved in violence (that is a qualifier, before anyone starts!) were not emotional, the majority of violent crimes would not happen.
How do you teach them to not let their emotions rule their actions?
You still haven't looked into the very thing I said that as caused you you to argue with me.
As I said if you look at the overall issue in 1 dimension there is nowhere to go to.
"*has - but I'm not arguing with you. The word 'if' is doing the heavy lifting. | |||
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"I think a focus on the reshaping of attitudes, mainly aimed at men, would only help in relation to the issue of male on male violence too" I think we should also concentrate on reshaping women and girls attitudes and give them the confidence to speak out in the face of blatant opposition from men who don't want to acknowledge a problem or accept that things need to change | |||
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"I think a focus on the reshaping of attitudes, mainly aimed at men, would only help in relation to the issue of male on male violence too I think we should also concentrate on reshaping women and girls attitudes and give them the confidence to speak out in the face of blatant opposition from men who don't want to acknowledge a problem or accept that things need to change " Absolutely | |||
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"I think a focus on the reshaping of attitudes, mainly aimed at men, would only help in relation to the issue of male on male violence too I think we should also concentrate on reshaping women and girls attitudes and give them the confidence to speak out in the face of blatant opposition from men who don't want to acknowledge a problem or accept that things need to change Absolutely" I think that does start at home with the parents and carers. | |||
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"I think we should also concentrate on reshaping women and girls attitudes and give them the confidence to speak out in the face of blatant opposition from men who don't want to acknowledge a problem or accept that things need to change" I don't think there are any men that believe there isn't a problem with violence in our society. Nor do I think you'd find any men that would oppose change to lessen the level of violent crime. | |||
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"I think a focus on the reshaping of attitudes, mainly aimed at men, would only help in relation to the issue of male on male violence too I think we should also concentrate on reshaping women and girls attitudes and give them the confidence to speak out in the face of blatant opposition from men who don't want to acknowledge a problem or accept that things need to change " Yes but in a perfect world they wouldn't have to speak out because it wouldn't happen in the first place. Unfortunately we are a long way off this being the case. | |||
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