Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Politics |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The Holy Grail of home ownership is very much a generational thing: in the “good old days” of Fred working for the same company until the day he died and Fred and Flo (plus dog, of course) never moving out of the neighbourhood, buying a house perhaps made sense. But today’s professional staff is expected to be flexible, mobile, and able to re-locate. For them, owing property is an encumbrance (literally!)." Do you think today's "way of living" is better then? Im not entirely sure what you're getting at, I understand what you said, just not the point or your opinion | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Take married out of the equation what are the number for couples married or not marriage is not a must have to people as far as relationships go, the other side is fairly straight forward houses are less affordable." Still a steep decline. Adults 25-35 who owned a home in late 80s were about 70%, now down to 40%. The figures for people who are single first time buyers have halved from the 90s to 10s too. So there's more people having to "couple up" to afford to buy by the looks of that So whichever group you look at as far as I can see in a 25-35 age range the figures have dropped drastically. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Take married out of the equation what are the number for couples married or not marriage is not a must have to people as far as relationships go, the other side is fairly straight forward houses are less affordable. Still a steep decline. Adults 25-35 who owned a home in late 80s were about 70%, now down to 40%. The figures for people who are single first time buyers have halved from the 90s to 10s too. So there's more people having to "couple up" to afford to buy by the looks of that So whichever group you look at as far as I can see in a 25-35 age range the figures have dropped drastically." It could just be that they are lazy and selfish and like having an easy time and scrounging off their more affluent parents. I mean that’s cultural change no? Putting it differently they might just want to have a good time for longer, not “grow up”, and not have any commitments. I take the points totally about affordability but there might be quite a few things at play that aren’t entirely down to cash. When I was “coming of age” in the eighties and nineties making money and hard work and being materially successful and having a good career were pretty much the entire cultural focus and people who didn’t want that were frowned on. I definitely don’t think that’s the case now. I mean it might be that the financial situation has been entirely demotivating for people but I think a lot of it is a shift in culture and messaging that people are responding to. I imagine if you are a young person in India, China, Taiwan, or Singapore the pressures are entirely different. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Saw a chart showing the percentage of 30 yo who are both married and homeowners dropping from over 50% in the 1950s to under 15% in the 2020s. Steady line that dips sharply in 1990 and continues on a downward trend until 2020s. At first I thought it might be exaggerated or bs, but the trend is backed by real UK data. Homeownership among under 35s has collapsed since the late 1980s, when house prices began massively outpacing wages, social housing was sold off and never replaced, and renting became the norm. Seems that marriage rates dropped as people delayed major life decisions due to economic uncertainty and cultural shifts. I find that crazy how being married with a mortgage at 30 used to be normal... and now it’s basically elite. Anyone feel like they've been deprived of what used to be standard stability? But mostly why is this?" Wealth is getting ever more consolidated in a minority of hands. Only the lucky few can now afford a home on wages. But please, no taxing the rich!! Redistribution of wealth is off limits here | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Marriage rates dropping has nothing to do with economic uncertainty. People's lifestyle and values have changed. As for housing, we just reached the saturation point for how many houses can be built given all the regulations that suffocate housing. " you cling on to your beliefs so strong your can't here the quiet hit | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is tougher now but not impossible, my daughter 24, just bought a house with her boyfriend, 75% ownership with council owning 25%, " Do the council take on 25% of responsibility for repairs, maintenance, insurance etc? Thought not! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It is tougher now but not impossible, my daughter 24, just bought a house with her boyfriend, 75% ownership with council owning 25%, Do the council take on 25% of responsibility for repairs, maintenance, insurance etc? Thought not!" Oh, and not forgetting paying 25% of the council tax! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Like others of said, if you go to uni, have a year in industry within that. Then do a masters. You’re 23 by then. So that’s already 7 years or so older than most were starting work a generation or so ago. Renting can give you more social mobility and that can be useful for work. They do seem to be building a lot of property, but with the increase in split households I’m not sure it’ll ever keep pace. We are quite unusual in the UK with our fascination with home ownership. " Uk wealth £13.3trn (ons). Of which £9trn is property. More than the combined values of all the uk stock market capitalisations of FTSE 100,250 and 350, pension funds and savings. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I imagine if you are a young person in India, China, Taiwan, or Singapore the pressures are entirely different." What does this mean? None of those countries have much in common to me, especially when it comes to housing, so I don't understand what you're referring to? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I imagine if you are a young person in India, China, Taiwan, or Singapore the pressures are entirely different. What does this mean? None of those countries have much in common to me, especially when it comes to housing, so I don't understand what you're referring to?" What does what mean? UK home ownership isn’t particularly low, it’s actually fairly high compared to other European countries. I was merely positing that young people may not buy a house because they don’t want one. Maybe other things are more important. Maybe careers, family, being tied down at an early age aren’t as important as they used to be. Maybe that’s a consequence of less family and societal pressure and people being more able to follow their own path. Maybe because they have more family money behind them they are less scared about not having somewhere to live. I was merely suggesting that in other places that societal and cultural pressure might be different. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Going to repost a thread I made about that it's largely a myth that there's a correlation behind housing supply and affordability. It obviously has "an effect", but it's just massively exaggerated how population has as much bearing on prices as most seem to think. A breakdown of the population growth and house price growth in the UK from the late 1970s to the present: UK Population Growth (Late 1970s to 2024 * Late 1970s Population: Around 56.2 million (according to ONS data). * 2024 Population: Approximately 69.1 million 69.1 - 56.2 / 56.2 x 100 Rate of change = 22.95% UK House Price Growth (Late 1970s to 2024) * Late 1970s Average House Price: Around £10k in 1974, rising to approximately £20k by the end of the decade. * 2024 Average House Price: £265k So the average house price increased from £10k in 1974 to £265k in 2024 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-house-price-index-for-march-2025#:~:text=The%20UK%20HPI%20shows%20house,Scotland%2C%20Wales%20and%20Northern%20Ireland.&text=The%20March%20data%20shows:,UK%20valued%20at%20%C2%A3271%2C000 Rate change using figures from above website. 245000 - 20000 / 20000 x 100 = 1225% This means that while the UK population has grown by approximately 23% since the late 1970s, average nominal house prices have increased by well over 1000%!" You’ve kinda disproven your own point buddy. The correlation between the two numbers and the rate of change is pretty irrelevant. It doesn’t really matter if there’s 13 people trying to get the 10 available properties or 113, because people who already own a property can push past the equity/affordability threshold’s put in place by the banks, in a way that first time buyers can’t. What matters is how many people buying are also selling compared to being first time buyers. Because if you’re selling and buying, the property values rising actually empowers you but they diminish the purchasing power of first time buyers. Your statements would be perfectly valid if everyone was a first time buyer, but they’re not. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I imagine if you are a young person in India, China, Taiwan, or Singapore the pressures are entirely different. What does this mean? None of those countries have much in common to me, especially when it comes to housing, so I don't understand what you're referring to? What does what mean? UK home ownership isn’t particularly low, it’s actually fairly high compared to other European countries. I was merely positing that young people may not buy a house because they don’t want one. Maybe other things are more important. Maybe careers, family, being tied down at an early age aren’t as important as they used to be. Maybe that’s a consequence of less family and societal pressure and people being more able to follow their own path. Maybe because they have more family money behind them they are less scared about not having somewhere to live. I was merely suggesting that in other places that societal and cultural pressure might be different. " Why use examples of countries that have no comparison to the UK or even between themselves? None of them share any strong similarities. So you don't think UK home ownership is low? That's fine, I'm ok with you stating an opinion. But what has that got to do with a real trend? In this case the decline of home ownership in 25-35-year-olds over last 35 years? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Going to repost a thread I made about that it's largely a myth that there's a correlation behind housing supply and affordability. It obviously has "an effect", but it's just massively exaggerated how population has as much bearing on prices as most seem to think. A breakdown of the population growth and house price growth in the UK from the late 1970s to the present: UK Population Growth (Late 1970s to 2024 * Late 1970s Population: Around 56.2 million (according to ONS data). * 2024 Population: Approximately 69.1 million 69.1 - 56.2 / 56.2 x 100 Rate of change = 22.95% UK House Price Growth (Late 1970s to 2024) * Late 1970s Average House Price: Around £10k in 1974, rising to approximately £20k by the end of the decade. * 2024 Average House Price: £265k So the average house price increased from £10k in 1974 to £265k in 2024 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-house-price-index-for-march-2025#:~:text=The%20UK%20HPI%20shows%20house,Scotland%2C%20Wales%20and%20Northern%20Ireland.&text=The%20March%20data%20shows:,UK%20valued%20at%20%C2%A3271%2C000 Rate change using figures from above website. 245000 - 20000 / 20000 x 100 = 1225% This means that while the UK population has grown by approximately 23% since the late 1970s, average nominal house prices have increased by well over 1000%! You’ve kinda disproven your own point buddy. The correlation between the two numbers and the rate of change is pretty irrelevant. It doesn’t really matter if there’s 13 people trying to get the 10 available properties or 113, because people who already own a property can push past the equity/affordability threshold’s put in place by the banks, in a way that first time buyers can’t. What matters is how many people buying are also selling compared to being first time buyers. Because if you’re selling and buying, the property values rising actually empowers you but they diminish the purchasing power of first time buyers. Your statements would be perfectly valid if everyone was a first time buyer, but they’re not. " So you're saying that people are hording wealth? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I imagine if you are a young person in India, China, Taiwan, or Singapore the pressures are entirely different. What does this mean? None of those countries have much in common to me, especially when it comes to housing, so I don't understand what you're referring to? What does what mean? UK home ownership isn’t particularly low, it’s actually fairly high compared to other European countries. I was merely positing that young people may not buy a house because they don’t want one. Maybe other things are more important. Maybe careers, family, being tied down at an early age aren’t as important as they used to be. Maybe that’s a consequence of less family and societal pressure and people being more able to follow their own path. Maybe because they have more family money behind them they are less scared about not having somewhere to live. I was merely suggesting that in other places that societal and cultural pressure might be different. Why use examples of countries that have no comparison to the UK or even between themselves? None of them share any strong similarities. So you don't think UK home ownership is low? That's fine, I'm ok with you stating an opinion. But what has that got to do with a real trend? In this case the decline of home ownership in 25-35-year-olds over last 35 years? " Home ownership across all age groups isn’t massively low in the UK if you do an international comparison. That isn’t an “opinion” it’s statistical fact. Home ownership rates globally across countries with any stability run from around 22% to 98% so the UK at 60-odd isn’t particularly low. If you are talking about people 25-35 then obviously rates have fallen over the last few decades for the reasons you state. Probably still much higher than they would have been in 1930. The same issue is affecting young people in the US, Canada, and EU. It isn’t a uniquely UK issue. I’m not really sure what you think should be done about it. Are you wanting some kind of state subsidies? Transfers of assets from others? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Going to repost a thread I made about that it's largely a myth that there's a correlation behind housing supply and affordability. It obviously has "an effect", but it's just massively exaggerated how population has as much bearing on prices as most seem to think. A breakdown of the population growth and house price growth in the UK from the late 1970s to the present: UK Population Growth (Late 1970s to 2024 * Late 1970s Population: Around 56.2 million (according to ONS data). * 2024 Population: Approximately 69.1 million 69.1 - 56.2 / 56.2 x 100 Rate of change = 22.95% UK House Price Growth (Late 1970s to 2024) * Late 1970s Average House Price: Around £10k in 1974, rising to approximately £20k by the end of the decade. * 2024 Average House Price: £265k So the average house price increased from £10k in 1974 to £265k in 2024 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-house-price-index-for-march-2025#:~:text=The%20UK%20HPI%20shows%20house,Scotland%2C%20Wales%20and%20Northern%20Ireland.&text=The%20March%20data%20shows:,UK%20valued%20at%20%C2%A3271%2C000 Rate change using figures from above website. 245000 - 20000 / 20000 x 100 = 1225% This means that while the UK population has grown by approximately 23% since the late 1970s, average nominal house prices have increased by well over 1000%! You’ve kinda disproven your own point buddy. The correlation between the two numbers and the rate of change is pretty irrelevant. It doesn’t really matter if there’s 13 people trying to get the 10 available properties or 113, because people who already own a property can push past the equity/affordability threshold’s put in place by the banks, in a way that first time buyers can’t. What matters is how many people buying are also selling compared to being first time buyers. Because if you’re selling and buying, the property values rising actually empowers you but they diminish the purchasing power of first time buyers. Your statements would be perfectly valid if everyone was a first time buyer, but they’re not. So you're saying that people are hording wealth?" Hording? Or accumulating? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Going to repost a thread I made about that it's largely a myth that there's a correlation behind housing supply and affordability. It obviously has "an effect", but it's just massively exaggerated how population has as much bearing on prices as most seem to think. A breakdown of the population growth and house price growth in the UK from the late 1970s to the present: UK Population Growth (Late 1970s to 2024 * Late 1970s Population: Around 56.2 million (according to ONS data). * 2024 Population: Approximately 69.1 million 69.1 - 56.2 / 56.2 x 100 Rate of change = 22.95% UK House Price Growth (Late 1970s to 2024) * Late 1970s Average House Price: Around £10k in 1974, rising to approximately £20k by the end of the decade. * 2024 Average House Price: £265k So the average house price increased from £10k in 1974 to £265k in 2024 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-house-price-index-for-march-2025#:~:text=The%20UK%20HPI%20shows%20house,Scotland%2C%20Wales%20and%20Northern%20Ireland.&text=The%20March%20data%20shows:,UK%20valued%20at%20%C2%A3271%2C000 Rate change using figures from above website. 245000 - 20000 / 20000 x 100 = 1225% This means that while the UK population has grown by approximately 23% since the late 1970s, average nominal house prices have increased by well over 1000%!" You can't compare population growth to prices like that. There are numerous factors here - General Inflation, number of single person households, number of people who want to buy a home for themselves, pressures against building houses like green belts and other planning restrictions. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
Simplified view: House prices in 1974, adjusted for inflation to 2025, average around £133k. Today, the national average is £265k meaning real house prices have roughly doubled since 1974. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I imagine if you are a young person in India, China, Taiwan, or Singapore the pressures are entirely different. What does this mean? None of those countries have much in common to me, especially when it comes to housing, so I don't understand what you're referring to? What does what mean? UK home ownership isn’t particularly low, it’s actually fairly high compared to other European countries. I was merely positing that young people may not buy a house because they don’t want one. Maybe other things are more important. Maybe careers, family, being tied down at an early age aren’t as important as they used to be. Maybe that’s a consequence of less family and societal pressure and people being more able to follow their own path. Maybe because they have more family money behind them they are less scared about not having somewhere to live. I was merely suggesting that in other places that societal and cultural pressure might be different. Why use examples of countries that have no comparison to the UK or even between themselves? None of them share any strong similarities. So you don't think UK home ownership is low? That's fine, I'm ok with you stating an opinion. But what has that got to do with a real trend? In this case the decline of home ownership in 25-35-year-olds over last 35 years? Home ownership across all age groups isn’t massively low in the UK if you do an international comparison. That isn’t an “opinion” it’s statistical fact. Home ownership rates globally across countries with any stability run from around 22% to 98% so the UK at 60-odd isn’t particularly low. If you are talking about people 25-35 then obviously rates have fallen over the last few decades for the reasons you state. Probably still much higher than they would have been in 1930. The same issue is affecting young people in the US, Canada, and EU. It isn’t a uniquely UK issue. I’m not really sure what you think should be done about it. Are you wanting some kind of state subsidies? Transfers of assets from others? " I agree that overall UK home ownership isn’t the lowest in the world, most definitely, but that’s nothing to do with a point I made about a real trend. International comparison doesn't really feel relevant unless you compare like for like, which you haven't Seems like you want to put words in my mouth, jumping to policy debate when I never mentioned anything about a solution. For starters, you personally don't even seem to acknowledge the problem, so why are you talking about policy when you don't think it's a problem? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Going to repost a thread I made about that it's largely a myth that there's a correlation behind housing supply and affordability. It obviously has "an effect", but it's just massively exaggerated how population has as much bearing on prices as most seem to think. A breakdown of the population growth and house price growth in the UK from the late 1970s to the present: UK Population Growth (Late 1970s to 2024 * Late 1970s Population: Around 56.2 million (according to ONS data). * 2024 Population: Approximately 69.1 million 69.1 - 56.2 / 56.2 x 100 Rate of change = 22.95% UK House Price Growth (Late 1970s to 2024) * Late 1970s Average House Price: Around £10k in 1974, rising to approximately £20k by the end of the decade. * 2024 Average House Price: £265k So the average house price increased from £10k in 1974 to £265k in 2024 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-house-price-index-for-march-2025#:~:text=The%20UK%20HPI%20shows%20house,Scotland%2C%20Wales%20and%20Northern%20Ireland.&text=The%20March%20data%20shows:,UK%20valued%20at%20%C2%A3271%2C000 Rate change using figures from above website. 245000 - 20000 / 20000 x 100 = 1225% This means that while the UK population has grown by approximately 23% since the late 1970s, average nominal house prices have increased by well over 1000%! You’ve kinda disproven your own point buddy. The correlation between the two numbers and the rate of change is pretty irrelevant. It doesn’t really matter if there’s 13 people trying to get the 10 available properties or 113, because people who already own a property can push past the equity/affordability threshold’s put in place by the banks, in a way that first time buyers can’t. What matters is how many people buying are also selling compared to being first time buyers. Because if you’re selling and buying, the property values rising actually empowers you but they diminish the purchasing power of first time buyers. Your statements would be perfectly valid if everyone was a first time buyer, but they’re not. So you're saying that people are hording wealth? Hording? Or accumulating?" Is there a difference? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" You can't compare population growth to prices like that. There are numerous factors here - General Inflation, number of single person households, number of people who want to buy a home for themselves, pressures against building houses like green belts and other planning restrictions." Ay? So you're saying population growth does not compare to housing inflation? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Saw a chart showing the percentage of 30 yo who are both married and homeowners dropping from over 50% in the 1950s to under 15% in the 2020s. Steady line that dips sharply in 1990 and continues on a downward trend until 2020s. At first I thought it might be exaggerated or bs, but the trend is backed by real UK data. Homeownership among under 35s has collapsed since the late 1980s, when house prices began massively outpacing wages, social housing was sold off and never replaced, and renting became the norm. Seems that marriage rates dropped as people delayed major life decisions due to economic uncertainty and cultural shifts. I find that crazy how being married with a mortgage at 30 used to be normal... and now it’s basically elite. Anyone feel like they've been deprived of what used to be standard stability? But mostly why is this?" It shows to me that people are reacting to the rich buying up assets we are suppose to own. Then they rent them back to us, something my fathers generation would not have put up with. But from the subject this thread is about I believe we are getting poorer which makes us reluctant to better ourselves through accepting bull crap from our leaders which we know is not true further debilitates us. In short who the hell would buy a house or have kids when we are lied to, used as cash cows have an unfair system which is now benign seen through the actions of the police and politicians. If I were young I wouldn't even bother. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I agree that overall UK home ownership isn’t the lowest in the world, most definitely, but that’s nothing to do with a point I made about a real trend. International comparison doesn't really feel relevant unless you compare like for like " Half of first time buyers are enabled by parental deposits. The age of FTB has gradually increased from age 24 in the 1970s to 30 in 2021, and reported age 34 last year. This correlates to rising house price / income ratios from around three times sole income in 1980 to eight and a half times today. As posted above we are now going into a new space where the banks are buying up housing and renting it to us. Suffolk building society launched a 5.49 times joint income mortgage yesterday, that would look pretty scary if rates increased. I don’t see any unpicking of the current situation | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I agree that overall UK home ownership isn’t the lowest in the world, most definitely, but that’s nothing to do with a point I made about a real trend. International comparison doesn't really feel relevant unless you compare like for like Half of first time buyers are enabled by parental deposits. The age of FTB has gradually increased from age 24 in the 1970s to 30 in 2021, and reported age 34 last year. This correlates to rising house price / income ratios from around three times sole income in 1980 to eight and a half times today. As posted above we are now going into a new space where the banks are buying up housing and renting it to us. Suffolk building society launched a 5.49 times joint income mortgage yesterday, that would look pretty scary if rates increased. I don’t see any unpicking of the current situation " Average UK house price in 1974 was approx £10k, with the average full time wage £2k, around 5× salary. Adjusted for inflation, that £10k is about £133k today. The current UK average is approx £268k, meaning prices are roughly twice as expensive in "real terms". The ratio today is 7.8× salary. Considerations that have not been taken into account: In 1974 approx 55% of women worked and 95% men. Women worked mostly part time as childcare was not in place and wage equality was not in place. Most households relied on 1 main income. Today working, women 75% and 80% men, wage equality in place and mostly working full time. The norm for school leavers to enter higher eduction is also pushing back both male and female earning capabilities by 5 - 6 years, impacting their ability to save. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" “Hording? Or accumulating?" Is there a difference?" Hording implies you’re denying others from having the same thing you’re accumulating. Like when some people stocked up on toilet paper and dried pasta during lockdown. There was only a limited amount available so stocking up affected other people’s ability to have those things as well. Accumulating sand from beeches wouldn’t deny other people access to a sandy beech because there’s an almost limitless supply. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos have definitely accumulated wealth but I wouldn’t say they have horded it as there’s an almost limitless amount out there. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
