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"It's looking almost certain that France, the UK and Canada will recognise a Palestinian state in September. Rumours are that Australia, Japan, Belgium, Luxembourg and Portugal might too. Your thoughts? " They will be back to the labour government in 6 months around Feb march for 29% more while still holding hostages. | |||
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"the recognition has conditions attached for both sides. for palestine the conditions are that hamas be disbanded and disarmed. that the palestine authority assume control of gazza as well as west bank. that all hostages be freed. personally i think it's about time. recognise palestine, then use that initial level of sovereignty as an opportunity for all concerned countries to start sending seabourne aid to gazza that is so desperately needed." This. Plus how do you reach a peaceful two state solution if you refuse to recognise one of the states | |||
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"Trump has reiterated no recognition of “Palestine”." That's hardly news. "Says it threatens a trade deal with Canada." The deadline was 1st August so Carney could have waited a couple of days to make the announcement, so that tells me that no trade deal was at risk. "“Two state solution” which neither state wants." The Palestinian Authority welcome the news. Although they are realistic and know that the Israeli government aren't interested in a two-state solution. "Who in “Palestine” would anyone deal with anyway?" President Mahmoud Abbas. "Will they have to hold a free and fair election?" According to the Times of Israel, the PA announced on the 26th July that they will hold elections by the end of the year as this was part of the recent negotiations between Canada and the PA. "Will the UK be sending troops in to enforce the solution that nobody wants?" Possibly but if so that would be many years down the line from now and probably only as technical support for a UN peacekeeping force. | |||
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"Country's can say what they like it won't matter to Israel,they said after ww2 the Jewish people will never again rely on anyone else,so the rest of the world can recognise what they want but Israel will keep blowing the shit out of the place until they get there people back" "...until all the Palestinians are gone" more like. | |||
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"Country's can say what they like it won't matter to Israel,they said after ww2 the Jewish people will never again rely on anyone else,so the rest of the world can recognise what they want but Israel will keep blowing the shit out of the place until they get there people back "...until all the Palestinians are gone" more like." I'm guessing whatever comes first,if hamas wana keep them until that happens they can do or they could hand the hostages over and call israels bluff | |||
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"The Israeli government don't give a sh*t about the hostages. The IDF shot three of them dead while they were walking towards them unarmed, shirtless, waving white flags and shouting in Hebrew. " your probably right same as hamas don't give a shit about there people either,what did they think Israel was going to do after the killed a thousand people and took a couple of hundred hostages? They ain't the sharpest knives in the drawer are they | |||
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"Trump has reiterated no recognition of “Palestine”. That's hardly news. Says it threatens a trade deal with Canada. The deadline was 1st August so Carney could have waited a couple of days to make the announcement, so that tells me that no trade deal was at risk. “Two state solution” which neither state wants. The Palestinian Authority welcome the news. Although they are realistic and know that the Israeli government aren't interested in a two-state solution. Who in “Palestine” would anyone deal with anyway? President Mahmoud Abbas. Will they have to hold a free and fair election? According to the Times of Israel, the PA announced on the 26th July that they will hold elections by the end of the year as this was part of the recent negotiations between Canada and the PA. Will the UK be sending troops in to enforce the solution that nobody wants? Possibly but if so that would be many years down the line from now and probably only as technical support for a UN peacekeeping force." Abbas hasn’t been elected for decades. Nor has anyone else in “Palestine”. “Palestine” isn’t a functioning democracy it is ruled over by murderous tyrants. This is unfortunately another example of armchair Western liberals kidding themselves about the West’s reach and influence, and the desire of other people to live the same life that Westerners live. | |||
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"It's looking almost certain that France, the UK and Canada will recognise a Palestinian state in September. Rumours are that Australia, Japan, Belgium, Luxembourg and Portugal might too. Your thoughts? " Roughly 40 countries already recognise Palestinian statehood in one way or another.. I have no issue with the uk, France and Canada doing it… Norway, Spain and Ireland did it a few months ago | |||
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"your probably right same as hamas don't give a shit about there people either,what did they think Israel was going to do after the killed a thousand people and took a couple of hundred hostages? They ain't the sharpest knives in the drawer are they" The Israelis have been killing Palestinians and locking up thousands of them without trial for decades. According to Amnesty International "The bodies of at least 600 Palestinians continue to be held by Israeli forces as bargaining chips under a long-standing illegal Israeli practice that predates October 2023" My guess is that Hamas are holding onto the hostages as a bargaining chip and the Israeli government are glad as it gives them an excuse to do what they are doing. Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. " Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc." Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.." Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. Also didn't mention Winnie the Pooh, Genghis Khan, Elvis Presley or macaroni and cheese recipes. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. Also didn't mention Winnie the Pooh, Genghis Khan, Elvis Presley or macaroni and cheese recipes." You countered the point about one side being a proscribed terrorist group by suggesting it’s only designated that way because of lucrative Western arms deals. That wanders into conspiracy and clearly leans into anti West sentiment, whether intentionally or not. If I have misunderstood your meaning, I’m open to be corrected. Just be specific, and I’ll be the first to apologise. | |||
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"Today 147 countries (76% of UN members) recognise Palestine. In a few months time that number will be higher still, yet we are supposed to think that all these countries are populated by western liberals sat in comfy armchairs. " what do you think recognising Palestine will do? It's certainly not going to stop Israel doing what they are doing,as long as america has there back they don't care what anyone else says,and don't kid yourself it's only republicans backing them the democrats back Israel aswell,I really don't care for either side to be honest with you I'm just looking at reality and the reality is it ends when Israel decide to end it and as for recognising Palestine there isn't much left Israel will not be handing back the land they have taken | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. Also didn't mention Winnie the Pooh, Genghis Khan, Elvis Presley or macaroni and cheese recipes. You countered the point about one side being a proscribed terrorist group by suggesting it’s only designated that way because of lucrative Western arms deals. That wanders into conspiracy " No, plus it's not the "only" reason, but a major one. " and clearly leans into anti West sentiment, whether intentionally or not." Utter nonsense, even by fab political forum standards. " If I have misunderstood your meaning, I’m open to be corrected. Just be specific, and I’ll be the first to apologise." Unless anyone else is suggesting that Iran's arms industry is making anywhere near what the US & "the west" 's arms industry is making? And if Iran would have as much influence designating who is and who isn't prescribed as a terrorist organisation? Back in April the university of Bradford punished a study on how many bombs, missiles and shells had been dropped on and fired into Gaza, it was about 70,000 tonnes of explosives, or for context six Hiroshimas. Not to mention guns, bullets, other military supplies. There's various estimates of how much Israel is paying to undertake the current round of mass slaughter, and they're all in the double digits of billions of dollars. Someone's getting extremely wealthy from all this death. It would be insane to suggest that Iran's arms industry was even vaguely close to making this much profit. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. " But what is the point your making? Is it that we and the USA both have arms industries and that there's profit in such things? It's a bit of a strange thing to not even include the fact that as referred to there's others making arms and giving training etc on weapons systems Iran, Russia etc which are being used by Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis.. That Israel's actions have and are going beyond what's internationally acceptable (as have the actions of the terrorists ) doesn't alter the fact that there are two sides and more in this conflict.. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. Also didn't mention Winnie the Pooh, Genghis Khan, Elvis Presley or macaroni and cheese recipes. You countered the point about one side being a proscribed terrorist group by suggesting it’s only designated that way because of lucrative Western arms deals. That wanders into conspiracy No, plus it's not the "only" reason, but a major one. and clearly leans into anti West sentiment, whether intentionally or not. Utter nonsense, even by fab political forum standards. If I have misunderstood your meaning, I’m open to be corrected. Just be specific, and I’ll be the first to apologise. Unless anyone else is suggesting that Iran's arms industry is making anywhere near what the US & "the west" 's arms industry is making? And if Iran would have as much influence designating who is and who isn't prescribed as a terrorist organisation? Back in April the university of Bradford punished a study on how many bombs, missiles and shells had been dropped on and fired into Gaza, it was about 70,000 tonnes of explosives, or for context six Hiroshimas. Not to mention guns, bullets, other military supplies. There's various estimates of how much Israel is paying to undertake the current round of mass slaughter, and they're all in the double digits of billions of dollars. Someone's getting extremely wealthy from all this death. It would be insane to suggest that Iran's arms industry was even vaguely close to making this much profit." I see, so you are saying terrorism is based on the amount of money made by arms manufactures. You are literally doubling down. You have been consistent in your anti West sentiment. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. But what is the point your making? Is it that we and the USA both have arms industries and that there's profit in such things? It's a bit of a strange thing to not even include the fact that as referred to there's others making arms and giving training etc on weapons systems Iran, Russia etc which are being used by Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis.. That Israel's actions have and are going beyond what's internationally acceptable (as have the actions of the terrorists ) doesn't alter the fact that there are two sides and more in this conflict.. " I thought it was obvious what I was saying. But I explained in more detail in my reply to the other chap. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. Also didn't mention Winnie the Pooh, Genghis Khan, Elvis Presley or macaroni and cheese recipes. You countered the point about one side being a proscribed terrorist group by suggesting it’s only designated that way because of lucrative Western arms deals. That wanders into conspiracy No, plus it's not the "only" reason, but a major one. and clearly leans into anti West sentiment, whether intentionally or not. Utter nonsense, even by fab political forum standards. If I have misunderstood your meaning, I’m open to be corrected. Just be specific, and I’ll be the first to apologise. Unless anyone else is suggesting that Iran's arms industry is making anywhere near what the US & "the west" 's arms industry is making? And if Iran would have as much influence designating who is and who isn't prescribed as a terrorist organisation? Back in April the university of Bradford punished a study on how many bombs, missiles and shells had been dropped on and fired into Gaza, it was about 70,000 tonnes of explosives, or for context six Hiroshimas. Not to mention guns, bullets, other military supplies. There's various estimates of how much Israel is paying to undertake the current round of mass slaughter, and they're all in the double digits of billions of dollars. Someone's getting extremely wealthy from all this death. It would be insane to suggest that Iran's arms industry was even vaguely close to making this much profit. I see, so you are saying terrorism is based on the amount of money made by arms manufactures. " Nope, what I'm saying is what I said " You are literally doubling down. " Okay. " You have been consistent in your anti West sentiment. " Utter rhubarb. You don't usually resort to this kind of nonsense. I whole heartedly disagree with you on pretty much everything, but you rarely, if ever come out with this kind of thing. Makes the discussion pointless. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. But what is the point your making? Is it that we and the USA both have arms industries and that there's profit in such things? It's a bit of a strange thing to not even include the fact that as referred to there's others making arms and giving training etc on weapons systems Iran, Russia etc which are being used by Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis.. That Israel's actions have and are going beyond what's internationally acceptable (as have the actions of the terrorists ) doesn't alter the fact that there are two sides and more in this conflict.. I thought it was obvious what I was saying. But I explained in more detail in my reply to the other chap." So if I'm reading it correctly 'profit' being made is worse when innocents are killed than a State regime and it's control over similar weapons and the same outcome? | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. But what is the point your making? Is it that we and the USA both have arms industries and that there's profit in such things? It's a bit of a strange thing to not even include the fact that as referred to there's others making arms and giving training etc on weapons systems Iran, Russia etc which are being used by Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis.. That Israel's actions have and are going beyond what's internationally acceptable (as have the actions of the terrorists ) doesn't alter the fact that there are two sides and more in this conflict.. I thought it was obvious what I was saying. But I explained in more detail in my reply to the other chap. So if I'm reading it correctly 'profit' being made is worse when innocents are killed than a State regime and it's control over similar weapons and the same outcome? " No, that's not at all what I'm saying, not even close. I don't know how you even came to that conclusion? The discussion started: "Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation." I'm addressing this point. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. But what is the point your making? Is it that we and the USA both have arms industries and that there's profit in such things? It's a bit of a strange thing to not even include the fact that as referred to there's others making arms and giving training etc on weapons systems Iran, Russia etc which are being used by Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis.. That Israel's actions have and are going beyond what's internationally acceptable (as have the actions of the terrorists ) doesn't alter the fact that there are two sides and more in this conflict.. I thought it was obvious what I was saying. But I explained in more detail in my reply to the other chap. So if I'm reading it correctly 'profit' being made is worse when innocents are killed than a State regime and it's control over similar weapons and the same outcome? No, that's not at all what I'm saying, not even close. I don't know how you even came to that conclusion? The discussion started: "Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation." I'm addressing this point." Thanks for clarifying.. The statement looks accurate.. | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. But what is the point your making? Is it that we and the USA both have arms industries and that there's profit in such things? It's a bit of a strange thing to not even include the fact that as referred to there's others making arms and giving training etc on weapons systems Iran, Russia etc which are being used by Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis.. That Israel's actions have and are going beyond what's internationally acceptable (as have the actions of the terrorists ) doesn't alter the fact that there are two sides and more in this conflict.. I thought it was obvious what I was saying. But I explained in more detail in my reply to the other chap. So if I'm reading it correctly 'profit' being made is worse when innocents are killed than a State regime and it's control over similar weapons and the same outcome? No, that's not at all what I'm saying, not even close. I don't know how you even came to that conclusion? The discussion started: "Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation." I'm addressing this point. Thanks for clarifying.. The statement looks accurate.."  | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. Also didn't mention Winnie the Pooh, Genghis Khan, Elvis Presley or macaroni and cheese recipes. You countered the point about one side being a proscribed terrorist group by suggesting it’s only designated that way because of lucrative Western arms deals. That wanders into conspiracy No, plus it's not the "only" reason, but a major one. and clearly leans into anti West sentiment, whether intentionally or not. Utter nonsense, even by fab political forum standards. If I have misunderstood your meaning, I’m open to be corrected. Just be specific, and I’ll be the first to apologise. Unless anyone else is suggesting that Iran's arms industry is making anywhere near what the US & "the west" 's arms industry is making? And if Iran would have as much influence designating who is and who isn't prescribed as a terrorist organisation? Back in April the university of Bradford punished a study on how many bombs, missiles and shells had been dropped on and fired into Gaza, it was about 70,000 tonnes of explosives, or for context six Hiroshimas. Not to mention guns, bullets, other military supplies. There's various estimates of how much Israel is paying to undertake the current round of mass slaughter, and they're all in the double digits of billions of dollars. Someone's getting extremely wealthy from all this death. It would be insane to suggest that Iran's arms industry was even vaguely close to making this much profit. I see, so you are saying terrorism is based on the amount of money made by arms manufactures. Nope, what I'm saying is what I said You are literally doubling down. Okay. You have been consistent in your anti West sentiment. Utter rhubarb. You don't usually resort to this kind of nonsense. I whole heartedly disagree with you on pretty much everything, but you rarely, if ever come out with this kind of thing. Makes the discussion pointless. " I'm not understanding how you have argued against the original comment here: "Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation". With comments about the costs of arms being less significant from Iranian supplied weaponry. | |||
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"So if this proposed move gets rid of hamas then that's a plus. However what does recognising a state actually mean in practical terms. Will it somehow prevent hamas returning or just another version of them returning. Will it stop the fight between Gaza and Israel. Plenty of countries are recognised yet have wars. Personally I can't see Israel saying, oh well your recognised now by the west so we will stop." Hamas gone away? To quote Gerry Adams "they haven't gone away you know". | |||
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" Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Only one side provides very lucrative opportunities for arms and other military equipment sales for the UK, the US etc. Interesting view. No mention of Iran and the others happily arming Hamas.. Because that's not even vaguely related to the point I made. Also didn't mention Winnie the Pooh, Genghis Khan, Elvis Presley or macaroni and cheese recipes. You countered the point about one side being a proscribed terrorist group by suggesting it’s only designated that way because of lucrative Western arms deals. That wanders into conspiracy No, plus it's not the "only" reason, but a major one. and clearly leans into anti West sentiment, whether intentionally or not. Utter nonsense, even by fab political forum standards. If I have misunderstood your meaning, I’m open to be corrected. Just be specific, and I’ll be the first to apologise. Unless anyone else is suggesting that Iran's arms industry is making anywhere near what the US & "the west" 's arms industry is making? And if Iran would have as much influence designating who is and who isn't prescribed as a terrorist organisation? Back in April the university of Bradford punished a study on how many bombs, missiles and shells had been dropped on and fired into Gaza, it was about 70,000 tonnes of explosives, or for context six Hiroshimas. Not to mention guns, bullets, other military supplies. There's various estimates of how much Israel is paying to undertake the current round of mass slaughter, and they're all in the double digits of billions of dollars. Someone's getting extremely wealthy from all this death. It would be insane to suggest that Iran's arms industry was even vaguely close to making this much profit. I see, so you are saying terrorism is based on the amount of money made by arms manufactures. Nope, what I'm saying is what I said You are literally doubling down. Okay. You have been consistent in your anti West sentiment. Utter rhubarb. You don't usually resort to this kind of nonsense. I whole heartedly disagree with you on pretty much everything, but you rarely, if ever come out with this kind of thing. Makes the discussion pointless. I'm not understanding how you have argued against the original comment here: "Both sides have and are behaving absolutely terribly. But only one side is a proscribed terrorist organisation". With comments about the costs of arms being less significant from Iranian supplied weaponry. " I agreed with the original comment, and added some information. One side provides very lucrative arms deals. The other does not. One side is not deemed terrorist. The other is. | |||
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"Uk government has sent 518 RAF sortees over Gaza identifying targets for the IDF murderers to bomb civilians Can’t see why Starner is now interested in recognising a state he has been instrumental in destroying. " Utter rubbish. | |||
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"Today 147 countries (76% of UN members) recognise Palestine. In a few months time that number will be higher still, yet we are supposed to think that all these countries are populated by western liberals sat in comfy armchairs. " 147 out 193 i believe .... and with the pledges now made that at the next full meeting of the UN in september, that number will increase northwards of 160. that would also swing the balance dramatically on the permanent UN security council from 2 out of 5 becoming 4 out of 5 ..... with 6 out 10 of the non-permanent security council also increasing in number. that's quite a significant change in numbers. hopefully this will start to translate into meaningful action. trumps threats to leave the UN will prove to be yet more echoes from an empty vessel now. | |||
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"So if this proposed move gets rid of hamas then that's a plus. However what does recognising a state actually mean in practical terms. Will it somehow prevent hamas returning or just another version of them returning. Will it stop the fight between Gaza and Israel. Plenty of countries are recognised yet have wars. Personally I can't see Israel saying, oh well your recognised now by the west so we will stop." Recognition is prinicipally symbolic but it has some impact otherwise the Israeli and US government wouldn't be so upset by these moves. Here's how I see it... 1) Countries that recognise Palestine have diplomatic relations with the Palestinian Authority. This might not amount to much but it means there are formal channels of communication, so both parties are more likely to know what's going on in their counterpart's country than previously. In emergence situations this matters. 2) As more and more countries recognise Palestine it makes the holdouts like the USA more isolated. They can't rely on there being a consensus opinion. Instead they will have to try to defend their positions rather than just assume that their main allies will go along with everything. 3) It sends a signal to the Israeli government that their actions in Gaza and the West Bank are not acceptable. They may not change course but they know more and more people disapprove. 4) If the Israeli government moves to annex the West Bank they'll know that they are illegally acquiring territory that all these other governments consider to be sovereign. It makes the act more consequential. Just as the recognition of Ukraine as a sovereign state made the Russian invasion more consequential. 5) Should things not improve soon then recognition of Palestine makes it easier for a state to impose sanctions on the Israeli government. If things get even worse then widespread sanctions on Israel look almost certain. 6) It's not all a one way street as recognition imposes certain responsibilities on the PA. The conditions set by Canada for instance seem to have prompted plans for an election in the West Bank. It will also push the PA to listen more to world opinion and begin to address some of the problems in its own back yard such as corruption. 7) It weakens Hamas as the more legitimacy the PA has the less influence Hamas has. If the PA is seen as the true representatives of the Palestinian people then peace plans that currently look impossible begin to look more realistic. This is good for Israel too. 8) Any long term peace agreements need foreign endorsements to add weight, help stabilize things and to provide some investment. Having peer-to-peer relationships helps this. | |||
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"So if this proposed move gets rid of hamas then that's a plus. However what does recognising a state actually mean in practical terms. Will it somehow prevent hamas returning or just another version of them returning. Will it stop the fight between Gaza and Israel. Plenty of countries are recognised yet have wars. Personally I can't see Israel saying, oh well your recognised now by the west so we will stop. Recognition is prinicipally symbolic but it has some impact otherwise the Israeli and US government wouldn't be so upset by these moves. Here's how I see it... 1) Countries that recognise Palestine have diplomatic relations with the Palestinian Authority. This might not amount to much but it means there are formal channels of communication, so both parties are more likely to know what's going on in their counterpart's country than previously. In emergence situations this matters. 2) As more and more countries recognise Palestine it makes the holdouts like the USA more isolated. They can't rely on there being a consensus opinion. Instead they will have to try to defend their positions rather than just assume that their main allies will go along with everything. 3) It sends a signal to the Israeli government that their actions in Gaza and the West Bank are not acceptable. They may not change course but they know more and more people disapprove. 4) If the Israeli government moves to annex the West Bank they'll know that they are illegally acquiring territory that all these other governments consider to be sovereign. It makes the act more consequential. Just as the recognition of Ukraine as a sovereign state made the Russian invasion more consequential. 5) Should things not improve soon then recognition of Palestine makes it easier for a state to impose sanctions on the Israeli government. If things get even worse then widespread sanctions on Israel look almost certain. 6) It's not all a one way street as recognition imposes certain responsibilities on the PA. The conditions set by Canada for instance seem to have prompted plans for an election in the West Bank. It will also push the PA to listen more to world opinion and begin to address some of the problems in its own back yard such as corruption. 7) It weakens Hamas as the more legitimacy the PA has the less influence Hamas has. If the PA is seen as the true representatives of the Palestinian people then peace plans that currently look impossible begin to look more realistic. This is good for Israel too. 8) Any long term peace agreements need foreign endorsements to add weight, help stabilize things and to provide some investment. Having peer-to-peer relationships helps this. " Won’t the “Palestinian Authority” have to have some elections to claim any authority in “Palestine”? Weren’t the last elections twenty years ago? How will the West dealing with unelected dictators help the West understand what’s going on in a country? What control does the PA have in Gaza? None, it’s controlled by Hamas. Will Starmer be inviting Hamas around for afternoon tea? Why would Hamas bother participating in elections if it has control anyway? This all smacks of the trillions of dollars the West spent on trying to create a democracy in Afghanistan, which all came to nothing. Western liberals assume that everyone wants to live like them. So they naively conclude that all that is standing between shitholes like Afghanistan and “Palestine” being turned into Norway is the West intervening (by force if necessary) and spending lots of money. Then the West gets bored of all the failure and moves on. This is what we’ve seen in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine. Now they are moving on to “Palestine” but the outcome will be no different. | |||
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"Hold on hold on, Mr Starmer’s coalition of the willing has a week to bring something to the table regarding the Russia Ukraine conflict, while he is in the zone and on auto pilot on sorting out world conflicts it should be a breeze. "All he’s bringing is a white flag | |||
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"Won’t the “Palestinian Authority” have to have some elections to claim any authority in “Palestine”?" I've said twice now that the PA have announced that they are going to hold elections. We shall have to wait and see if these actually happen. "Weren’t the last elections twenty years ago? How will the West dealing with unelected dictators help the West understand what’s going on in a country? What control does the PA have in Gaza? None, it’s controlled by Hamas. Will Starmer be inviting Hamas around for afternoon tea? Why would Hamas bother participating in elections if it has control anyway?" The question of democracy is difficult, as the West insists that Hamas can't be involved so it will be the West's version of democracy. Elections in Gaza are not feasible at present anyway but if elections in the West Bank happen then Hamas won't be allowed to run. My understanding though is that Mohammed Dahlan may be allowed to run. He's a complicated and controversial figure but the Americans (and Israelis)) seem to like him. It's possible he ends up running Gaza again. The political situation in Palestine is a mess (obviously). There has been so much corruption in Fatah over the years that many people don't trust them. That's partly why Hamas came to power in Gaza. As I and others keep saying, Israel should release Marwan Barghouti as he would potentially transform things for the better. He has massive support from ordinary Palestinians and could be a Mandela like figure. Neither the Israeli government nor the more corrupt elements in Fatah want him released though as neither seek democracy for Palestinians. "This all smacks of the trillions of dollars the West spent on trying to create a democracy in Afghanistan, which all came to nothing. Western liberals assume that everyone wants to live like them. So they naively conclude that all that is standing between shitholes like Afghanistan and “Palestine” being turned into Norway is the West intervening (by force if necessary) and spending lots of money. Then the West gets bored of all the failure and moves on. This is what we’ve seen in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine. Now they are moving on to “Palestine” but the outcome will be no different." Can't you differentiate between a diplomatic move like state recognition and military intervention? UN Security Council resolution 2735 provides a framework for moving forwards in Gaza. As a guerrilla warfare movement Hamas probably can't be defeated militarily but they can be deactivated by substantive changes on the ground. A two-state solution is part of this as a formal end to Hamas as a political entity can be a pre-requisite. But Gaza is a separate issue to the West Bank. The two regions need different handling. Gaza is a mountain of rubble. The West Bank isn't (yet). | |||
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"Won’t the “Palestinian Authority” have to have some elections to claim any authority in “Palestine”? I've said twice now that the PA have announced that they are going to hold elections. We shall have to wait and see if these actually happen. Weren’t the last elections twenty years ago? How will the West dealing with unelected dictators help the West understand what’s going on in a country? What control does the PA have in Gaza? None, it’s controlled by Hamas. Will Starmer be inviting Hamas around for afternoon tea? Why would Hamas bother participating in elections if it has control anyway? The question of democracy is difficult, as the West insists that Hamas can't be involved so it will be the West's version of democracy. Elections in Gaza are not feasible at present anyway but if elections in the West Bank happen then Hamas won't be allowed to run. My understanding though is that Mohammed Dahlan may be allowed to run. He's a complicated and controversial figure but the Americans (and Israelis)) seem to like him. It's possible he ends up running Gaza again. The political situation in Palestine is a mess (obviously). There has been so much corruption in Fatah over the years that many people don't trust them. That's partly why Hamas came to power in Gaza. As I and others keep saying, Israel should release Marwan Barghouti as he would potentially transform things for the better. He has massive support from ordinary Palestinians and could be a Mandela like figure. Neither the Israeli government nor the more corrupt elements in Fatah want him released though as neither seek democracy for Palestinians. This all smacks of the trillions of dollars the West spent on trying to create a democracy in Afghanistan, which all came to nothing. Western liberals assume that everyone wants to live like them. So they naively conclude that all that is standing between shitholes like Afghanistan and “Palestine” being turned into Norway is the West intervening (by force if necessary) and spending lots of money. Then the West gets bored of all the failure and moves on. This is what we’ve seen in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine. Now they are moving on to “Palestine” but the outcome will be no different. Can't you differentiate between a diplomatic move like state recognition and military intervention? UN Security Council resolution 2735 provides a framework for moving forwards in Gaza. As a guerrilla warfare movement Hamas probably can't be defeated militarily but they can be deactivated by substantive changes on the ground. A two-state solution is part of this as a formal end to Hamas as a political entity can be a pre-requisite. But Gaza is a separate issue to the West Bank. The two regions need different handling. Gaza is a mountain of rubble. The West Bank isn't (yet)." Why is this our concern? Despite our politicians desperate desire to remain relevant in global politics we spend so much time apologising and begging forgiveness that it's simply not possible to do both so they cower down. This nation is fucked | |||
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"It's long overdue and a small step towards the country having full international recognition and power. We need to do much more, including stopping military supplies to Israel and ending commercial engagement, until they get to negotiations for a 2 state solution. " I think the British Mandate for Palestine ended in 1948. Israel is no longer a British colony. The British government struggles to run Britain effectively, without spending its time trying to reinvigorate its past “glories”. | |||
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"So if this proposed move gets rid of hamas then that's a plus. However what does recognising a state actually mean in practical terms. Will it somehow prevent hamas returning or just another version of them returning. Will it stop the fight between Gaza and Israel. Plenty of countries are recognised yet have wars. Personally I can't see Israel saying, oh well your recognised now by the west so we will stop. Recognition is prinicipally symbolic but it has some impact otherwise the Israeli and US government wouldn't be so upset by these moves. Here's how I see it... 1) Countries that recognise Palestine have diplomatic relations with the Palestinian Authority. This might not amount to much but it means there are formal channels of communication, so both parties are more likely to know what's going on in their counterpart's country than previously. In emergence situations this matters. 2) As more and more countries recognise Palestine it makes the holdouts like the USA more isolated. They can't rely on there being a consensus opinion. Instead they will have to try to defend their positions rather than just assume that their main allies will go along with everything. 3) It sends a signal to the Israeli government that their actions in Gaza and the West Bank are not acceptable. They may not change course but they know more and more people disapprove. 4) If the Israeli government moves to annex the West Bank they'll know that they are illegally acquiring territory that all these other governments consider to be sovereign. It makes the act more consequential. Just as the recognition of Ukraine as a sovereign state made the Russian invasion more consequential. 5) Should things not improve soon then recognition of Palestine makes it easier for a state to impose sanctions on the Israeli government. If things get even worse then widespread sanctions on Israel look almost certain. 6) It's not all a one way street as recognition imposes certain responsibilities on the PA. The conditions set by Canada for instance seem to have prompted plans for an election in the West Bank. It will also push the PA to listen more to world opinion and begin to address some of the problems in its own back yard such as corruption. 7) It weakens Hamas as the more legitimacy the PA has the less influence Hamas has. If the PA is seen as the true representatives of the Palestinian people then peace plans that currently look impossible begin to look more realistic. This is good for Israel too. 8) Any long term peace agreements need foreign endorsements to add weight, help stabilize things and to provide some investment. Having peer-to-peer relationships helps this. " Thanks for the detailed response. I hope it goes someway to helping the situation. My fear is even when recognised, nothing will actually change and they will still be attacking each other | |||
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"So if this proposed move gets rid of hamas then that's a plus. However what does recognising a state actually mean in practical terms. Will it somehow prevent hamas returning or just another version of them returning. Will it stop the fight between Gaza and Israel. Plenty of countries are recognised yet have wars. Personally I can't see Israel saying, oh well your recognised now by the west so we will stop. Recognition is prinicipally symbolic but it has some impact otherwise the Israeli and US government wouldn't be so upset by these moves. Here's how I see it... 1) Countries that recognise Palestine have diplomatic relations with the Palestinian Authority. This might not amount to much but it means there are formal channels of communication, so both parties are more likely to know what's going on in their counterpart's country than previously. In emergence situations this matters. 2) As more and more countries recognise Palestine it makes the holdouts like the USA more isolated. They can't rely on there being a consensus opinion. Instead they will have to try to defend their positions rather than just assume that their main allies will go along with everything. 3) It sends a signal to the Israeli government that their actions in Gaza and the West Bank are not acceptable. They may not change course but they know more and more people disapprove. 4) If the Israeli government moves to annex the West Bank they'll know that they are illegally acquiring territory that all these other governments consider to be sovereign. It makes the act more consequential. Just as the recognition of Ukraine as a sovereign state made the Russian invasion more consequential. 5) Should things not improve soon then recognition of Palestine makes it easier for a state to impose sanctions on the Israeli government. If things get even worse then widespread sanctions on Israel look almost certain. 6) It's not all a one way street as recognition imposes certain responsibilities on the PA. The conditions set by Canada for instance seem to have prompted plans for an election in the West Bank. It will also push the PA to listen more to world opinion and begin to address some of the problems in its own back yard such as corruption. 7) It weakens Hamas as the more legitimacy the PA has the less influence Hamas has. If the PA is seen as the true representatives of the Palestinian people then peace plans that currently look impossible begin to look more realistic. This is good for Israel too. 8) Any long term peace agreements need foreign endorsements to add weight, help stabilize things and to provide some investment. Having peer-to-peer relationships helps this. Thanks for the detailed response. I hope it goes someway to helping the situation. My fear is even when recognised, nothing will actually change and they will still be attacking each other " That is exactly what will happen, nothing will change. Despite all the AI driven “what if” outcomes I have been reading, this remains a tribal conflict at its core. Recognition won’t stop the violence. Both sides will continue to fight, regardless of diplomatic recognition. | |||
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"The basic range of options available to the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of the Palestinians... 1) Genocide 2) Ethnic cleansing 3) Apartheid 4) Democracy " The preferred option of Hamas with reported 75% Palestinian support is murdering all the Israelis; whether they are Jews or not. 7 October 2023 - reap what you sow | |||
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"The basic range of options available to the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of the Palestinians... 1) Genocide 2) Ethnic cleansing 3) Apartheid 4) Democracy " That's probably in ascending order for profits to the arms industry. Which will give us a clue as to what might happen. | |||
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"The basic range of options available to the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of the Palestinians... 1) Genocide 2) Ethnic cleansing 3) Apartheid 4) Democracy " When one side is faced with a people who are controlled by terrorists whose stated aims is to wipe them off the face off the earth the options are limited.. Yes it's complicated by historical wrongs on all sides and literally no side has the moral high ground.. | |||
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"The preferred option of Hamas with reported 75% Palestinian support is murdering all the Israelis; whether they are Jews or not. 7 October 2023 - reap what you sow" We discussed this a few weeks ago. It wasn't true then and isn't true now. I'm not sure why you are presenting a known falsehood. The polling was in Gaza alone, wasn't asking the question you have invented and was considered fake even by the Israeli government. Oh, and you've just made the numbers up too, for good measure. According to Reuters... "The poll, conducted in early September by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR), found that 57% of people surveyed in the Gaza Strip said the decision to launch the offensive was incorrect, while 39% said it was correct." And given that the people polled were under attack and possibly also afraid of Hamas retribution for saying they didn't support the Hamas action, it's remarkable that so few said they thought it was "correct". | |||
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"When one side is faced with a people who are controlled by terrorists whose stated aims is to wipe them off the face off the earth the options are limited.. Yes it's complicated by historical wrongs on all sides and literally no side has the moral high ground.." Hamas changed their charter eight years ago saying that they could accept a two-state solution... "without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." Do you want me to quote the genocidal statements made by members of the current Israeli government? Or are you already familiar with them? | |||
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"When one side is faced with a people who are controlled by terrorists whose stated aims is to wipe them off the face off the earth the options are limited.. Yes it's complicated by historical wrongs on all sides and literally no side has the moral high ground.. Hamas changed their charter eight years ago saying that they could accept a two-state solution... "without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." Do you want me to quote the genocidal statements made by members of the current Israeli government? Or are you already familiar with them? " It’s nice that you are quoting Hamas now but isn’t it a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK? | |||
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"When one side is faced with a people who are controlled by terrorists whose stated aims is to wipe them off the face off the earth the options are limited.. Yes it's complicated by historical wrongs on all sides and literally no side has the moral high ground.. Hamas changed their charter eight years ago saying that they could accept a two-state solution... "without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." Do you want me to quote the genocidal statements made by members of the current Israeli government? Or are you already familiar with them? " Tbh their actions on Oct 7 showed what that was worth.. Zilch.. No your really fine thanks, I'm fully aware of the wrongs both sides have committed and the rhetoric.. Funny enough I said so above so perhaps step off your soapbox.. | |||
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"It’s nice that you are quoting Hamas now but isn’t it a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK?" I'm arguing for the dismantlement of Hamas, I'm not supporting them in any way, indeed I've condemned them multiple times on this forum. They are a barbaric terrorist organisation who have committed horrific crimes. I'm trying to have a serious debate here and it is not illegal to quote something that has been openly available in the public domain for many years. My hope is for peace and security for both Palestinians and Israelis. That involves getting rid of Hamas and trying to persuade the Israeli government to step back from the abyss. | |||
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"Tbh their actions on Oct 7 showed what that was worth.. Zilch.. No your really fine thanks, I'm fully aware of the wrongs both sides have committed and the rhetoric.. Funny enough I said so above so perhaps step off your soapbox.. " I'm sorry. I admit that I do sometimes sound like a Hyde Park Corner nutter. But these matters are important to me for various reasons, some of which I've explained elsewhere. Peace and security for Israel is just as important as it is for Palestine. I believe we can't have one without the other. A part of my motivation here is that I hate to see a country that I once admired go so far off the rails and I'd love to see it become a normal country and one that is respected for having dealt with severe problems and surfaced with honour and dignity. | |||
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"Tbh their actions on Oct 7 showed what that was worth.. Zilch.. No your really fine thanks, I'm fully aware of the wrongs both sides have committed and the rhetoric.. Funny enough I said so above so perhaps step off your soapbox.. I'm sorry. I admit that I do sometimes sound like a Hyde Park Corner nutter. But these matters are important to me for various reasons, some of which I've explained elsewhere. Peace and security for Israel is just as important as it is for Palestine. I believe we can't have one without the other. A part of my motivation here is that I hate to see a country that I once admired go so far off the rails and I'd love to see it become a normal country and one that is respected for having dealt with severe problems and surfaced with honour and dignity. " No worries | |||
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"The basic range of options available to the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of the Palestinians... 1) Genocide 2) Ethnic cleansing 3) Apartheid 4) Democracy The preferred option of Hamas with reported 75% Palestinian support is murdering all the Israelis; whether they are Jews or not. 7 October 2023 - reap what you sow " This and in an interview with mosab yousef hamas, he said that it is not a secret that hamas wants to destroy the state of israel. | |||
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"The basic range of options available to the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of the Palestinians... 1) Genocide 2) Ethnic cleansing 3) Apartheid 4) Democracy The preferred option of Hamas with reported 75% Palestinian support is murdering all the Israelis; whether they are Jews or not. 7 October 2023 - reap what you sow This and in an interview with mosab yousef hamas, he said that it is not a secret that hamas wants to destroy the state of israel." Is saying you want to destroy a neighbouring state, worse than actually destroying a neighbouring state? | |||
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"The basic range of options available to the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of the Palestinians... 1) Genocide 2) Ethnic cleansing 3) Apartheid 4) Democracy The preferred option of Hamas with reported 75% Palestinian support is murdering all the Israelis; whether they are Jews or not. 7 October 2023 - reap what you sow This and in an interview with mosab yousef hamas, he said that it is not a secret that hamas wants to destroy the state of israel. Is saying you want to destroy a neighbouring state, worse than actually destroying a neighbouring state?" They killed foreign nationals of 41 countries that day. Indiscriminate killing of infidels on Allahs calling | |||
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"The basic range of options available to the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of the Palestinians... 1) Genocide 2) Ethnic cleansing 3) Apartheid 4) Democracy The preferred option of Hamas with reported 75% Palestinian support is murdering all the Israelis; whether they are Jews or not. 7 October 2023 - reap what you sow This and in an interview with mosab yousef hamas, he said that it is not a secret that hamas wants to destroy the state of israel. Is saying you want to destroy a neighbouring state, worse than actually destroying a neighbouring state? They killed foreign nationals of 41 countries that day. Indiscriminate killing of infidels on Allahs calling " Not sure how this answers the question I posed to the other chap, can you elaborate? | |||
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" Is saying you want to destroy a neighbouring state, worse than actually destroying a neighbouring state?" Is saying you want to kill an armed guard, then approaching them with a brandished knife worse than the armed guard shooting when that person approaches? | |||
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"Hamas have been busy this weekend! Releasing a video of a hostage emaciated in a tunnel and for them to lay down their weapons, in other words to stop fighting, they want an "independent, fully sovereign Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital". I have said this many times before, the lack of pushback on Hamas from people who claim to want the war to end is baffling. " Anyone naive enough to think hamas want peace with the restrictions associated with peace is simply ignorant of who and what hamas stand for and who funds and controls. It will never happen. If they can win they will do anything no matter how vile and animalistic to smear israels name. Theres many videos capturing them videoing a child being given water or food only to remove it and push the child away after they got their propaganda video material. Thats to their very own starving people. They take, control, sell most of the aid getting through. Thats what you're up against. | |||
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"Hamas have been busy this weekend! Releasing a video of a hostage emaciated in a tunnel and for them to lay down their weapons, in other words to stop fighting, they want an "independent, fully sovereign Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital". I have said this many times before, the lack of pushback on Hamas from people who claim to want the war to end is baffling. " I would agree to a point, Hamas aren't exactly the type of organisation who takes kindly to critical advice and there's always some who think the end justifies the means.. In the post war period some in Israel used lethal force against our troops and their actions were seen by our government as being terrorism in their quest.. | |||
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"251 hostages taken on 7 October, latest reports 22 remain hostage in Gaza · 146 have been freed or rescued · 83 have been confirmed killed Who could think they can win by holding 22 hostages in the face of daily bombing and starvation of 2 million people " Human shields to a point perhaps.. Plus those who care not a jot about the Palestinians who are in their eyes collateral damage in the crusade to destroy Israel.. | |||
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"251 hostages taken on 7 October, latest reports 22 remain hostage in Gaza · 146 have been freed or rescued · 83 have been confirmed killed Who could think they can win by holding 22 hostages in the face of daily bombing and starvation of 2 million people " Do you understand what "winning" looks like to Hamas? Every day that they drag this out and Israel sinks lower and lower in global opinion is a victory for them. Every headline that says "Israel kills and starves children" is a win for them. Their own death, in the right context, is a blessing. "Daily bombing and starvation of 2 million people" is a win, which is why they hold on to the hostages. Giving the hostages back and stopping the war is a loss. Which is why they don't do it. | |||
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"251 hostages taken on 7 October, latest reports 22 remain hostage in Gaza · 146 have been freed or rescued · 83 have been confirmed killed Who could think they can win by holding 22 hostages in the face of daily bombing and starvation of 2 million people Do you understand what "winning" looks like to Hamas? Every day that they drag this out and Israel sinks lower and lower in global opinion is a victory for them. Every headline that says "Israel kills and starves children" is a win for them. Their own death, in the right context, is a blessing. "Daily bombing and starvation of 2 million people" is a win, which is why they hold on to the hostages. Giving the hostages back and stopping the war is a loss. Which is why they don't do it." While most surrounding Islamic states have historically opposed Israel due to the Palestinian conflict, many have forged diplomatic and even military ties with Israel in recent years, particularly following the Abraham Accords. These states often cite shared security concerns, particularly regarding Iran, as a reason for their relationships with Israel. Israel have know for decades that Iran is the key to middle Eastern peace even for Islamic states. They are seeking a change to a more moderate government which cuts off the head, funding, support and directive for Hamas, Daesh, Houtos and Hizbullah. Whether we like it or not Israel unlike many other governments will do as they say even if it takes many many years, history has repeatedly shown that. Thats the reality of all this. | |||
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" I have said this many times before, the lack of pushback on Hamas from people who claim to want the war to end is baffling. " It's been explained to you multiple times. | |||
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"Casting our minds back to 7th October 2023, what do we reckons Hamas primary strategic objective was? Without doubt international recognition of a Palestinian state. So terrorism pays off eh?" Some people arguing against a two-state solution don't agree with you. They believe that Hamas isn't interested in two-states and will fight on forever. Also a two-state solution is in the interests of the Israelis as well as the Palestinians because it is not feasible for the Israelis to subjugate over five and a half million Palestinians while having peace and security. A two-state solution is therefore not a reward for terrorism. But if one can only see the world through such a narrow prism of rewards and punishments then isn't the death of 60,000 people, maybe about a third of them children, enough revenge? | |||
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"Casting our minds back to 7th October 2023, what do we reckons Hamas primary strategic objective was? Without doubt international recognition of a Palestinian state. So terrorism pays off eh?" Most countries in the world - over 120 - already recognise them. The US and UK will be the only permanent members of the UNSC who don't. It isnt a reward - it would make it a lot easier to get to a solution though | |||
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"In phase 1 of the ceasefire didn't Hamas hand back hostages, and Netanyahu refused to move to phase 2,isn't it in his interest to keep the war going too," Hamas handing back hostages and disarming would force his hand. Even the US would impose sanctions on Israel if they continued fighting after this. | |||
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"The UN security council needs tk declare that Israel's actions are genocide and that would necessitate we take military action against Israel and protect the Palestinians. Take the land back to the old borders, disband the military and create a new unified state. Then bug out and let the dice fall as they may." So we go and fight another middle east war. After the huge success's when the "dice fell" in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, it should be a walk in the park. | |||
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"The UN security council needs tk declare that Israel's actions are genocide and that would necessitate we take military action against Israel and protect the Palestinians. " Which "we" is going to take military action against Israel on its home turf? Good luck ever getting votes after starting THAT war. " Take the land back to the old borders, disband the military and create a new unified state. " You're really optimistic! How?!?! The logistical and social challenges to achieve this are... Perhaps a little complicated? " Then bug out and let the dice fall as they may." So basically leave a new killing field, a bit like the UK did in 1947? How very British of you. | |||
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"Hamas handing back hostages and disarming would force his hand. Even the US would impose sanctions on Israel if they continued fighting after this." Hamas should have never taken hostages in the first place and should hand them back immediately without conditions. However, I don't see Hamas surrendering just to get a ceasefire. But let's say that Hamas released the hostages and turned themselves over to the IDF, what do you think would happen in Gaza as a result? And what would happen in the West Bank? | |||
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"The UN security council needs tk declare that Israel's actions are genocide and that would necessitate we take military action against Israel and protect the Palestinians. Take the land back to the old borders, disband the military and create a new unified state. Then bug out and let the dice fall as they may. So we go and fight another middle east war. After the huge success's when the "dice fell" in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, it should be a walk in the park. "
As ideas go it all sounds like a very cunning plan.. | |||
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" I have said this many times before, the lack of pushback on Hamas from people who claim to want the war to end is baffling. It's been explained to you multiple times." I know it has, and I'm still baffled by the lack of ownership associated to Hamas and their ongoing war, by the same people who call for an end to the war. Shocking to be fair. | |||
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"Hamas handing back hostages and disarming would force his hand. Even the US would impose sanctions on Israel if they continued fighting after this. Hamas should have never taken hostages in the first place and should hand them back immediately without conditions. However, I don't see Hamas surrendering just to get a ceasefire. But let's say that Hamas released the hostages and turned themselves over to the IDF, what do you think would happen in Gaza as a result? " A huge improvement for the lives of Gazans and Israelis. Hamas was never holding back an Israeli invasion; they are the reason that Gaza could not move forward once Israel had vacated Gaza. " And what would happen in the West Bank? " Good question. This whole unfortunate saga has provided a measure of cover for the nutjob extremists to kill and pillage in the West Bank. It also precipitated a very heavy-handed crackdown on Hamas and terrorist elements in the West Bank. Honestly, the PA needs to get their house in order. The Palestinian population needs to choose between a single national identity (which doesn't currently exist) or consider smaller clans, possibly federating into a whole, with less overall unity but more control over specific and localised areas. One factor that gets left out of most of these conversations is the actual political will of Palestinians outside of Hamas/Fatah. | |||
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"I thought the main argument from posters who are against a two-state solution was that it wouldn't lead to Hamas stopping fighting. But the argument from a couple of people here seems to have done a 180 degree turn with the complaint now being that Hamas won't disarm until there is a two-state solution. Which is a bit weird as Hamas are just repeating what they said before. Or as the BBC phrased it "Hamas has reaffirmed that it will not agree to disarm unless a sovereign Palestinian state is established, in response to one of Israel's key demands in talks about a ceasefire in Gaza.". Now if you don't believe the Hamas statement then fair enough but it's not rational to argue that both of the following statements are true... A) I believe that Hamas say they will fight forever - and we should believe what they say. B) Hamas say they will disarm if a two-state solution happens - but we shouldn't believe what they say. " The Hamas vision is a world conquered by islam. An integral part of that vision, and their specific fight, is the elimination of any state in the Levant that is not ruled by Islam. Others will be tolerated as long as they submit to Islamic rule. Everything that they do is within this context. It's not a nationalistic movement, except as that aligns with their overarching goal. This is in contrast to some other Palestinian movements/entities, which do want a state. Hamas will do whatever it takes to achieve this vision, over the longer term. Should this require a strategic pause or even nominal capitulation to Israel, then so be it, but every action is designed to eradicate Israel. A two-state solution is a stepping-stone to the eventual eradication of Israel, in their view. Hamas desperately needs to rearm, retrain, recruit. They cannot do that under fire. They can do that from within a state over the next couple of decades. So... Hamas will fight until they or Israel are defeated. That fight may be active combat or preparing for the next combat. They say that they will disarm if Palestine is recognised as a state with Jerusalem as its capital. Does that make Israel safe? Israel won't think so. From an Israeli perspective, they will just be fighting a better equipped (state) enemy in 20 years (with a foothold in Jerusalem), which is, on balance, probably the intention of Hamas. That's not to say that a two-state solution is impossible. But it will take trust that will take decades to build. | |||
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"There will never be a a two state solution, because they cant coexist." The only way it can exist now is military occupation. 60,000 killed there will never ever be peace just wanton retaliation. A dead Jew is a prize for Hamas and Palestinians | |||
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"A huge improvement for the lives of Gazans and Israelis. Hamas was never holding back an Israeli invasion; they are the reason that Gaza could not move forward once Israel had vacated Gaza." I agree that Hamas didn't hold back the invasion. If Hamas surrendered the death toll would certainly drop but it would still be a situation with two million people trying to survive in a mountain of rubble. I'm not sure if there has been any planning on the Israeli side for this. I'd guess if Hamas hadn't taken over in Gaza it would have been pretty similar to how it was before Hamas came to power. "Good question. This whole unfortunate saga has provided a measure of cover for the nutjob extremists to kill and pillage in the West Bank. It also precipitated a very heavy-handed crackdown on Hamas and terrorist elements in the West Bank. Honestly, the PA needs to get their house in order." By nutjobs do you mean those on the leading edge of the settler movement? The problem is that while they are a slightly fringe element the main settlement programme is supported and well funded by the government and backed up by the IDF. What can the PA do to stop the settlement programme? "The Palestinian population needs to choose between a single national identity (which doesn't currently exist) or consider smaller clans, possibly federating into a whole, with less overall unity but more control over specific and localised areas. One factor that gets left out of most of these conversations is the actual political will of Palestinians outside of Hamas/Fatah." I find this an odd statement. What do you mean that the Palestinians should "consider smaller clans"? Yes there is political division amongst the Palestinian people, just like in the UK. Fatah are the centre-left and Hamas are the far-right. There are other parties - the DFLP, PFLP, PNI, PPP and the Third Way but AFAIK these have little support and are also on the left like Fatah. So basically the politics is split between the left parties and Hamas on the far-right. So what do you mean by "the actual political will of Palestinians outside of Hamas/Fatah"? | |||
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"I imagine it will be first step to allow them entry to the uk. You read it here first. Do we have room for them all?" France just closed their borders to Palestinians. Must Western countries to point to the issues faced by France to prevent that from happening. | |||
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" I'd guess if Hamas hadn't taken over in Gaza it would have been pretty similar to how it was before Hamas came to power." Imagine if all the manpower and materials that went into tunnels and missiles instead went into civilian infrastructure. Imagine no blockade or restriction on materials. Imagine commerce with Israel and Egypt and the rest of the world. Israel now views Gaza as a failed experiment in self-determination and withdrawal. | |||
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" I'd guess if Hamas hadn't taken over in Gaza it would have been pretty similar to how it was before Hamas came to power. Imagine if all the manpower and materials that went into tunnels and missiles instead went into civilian infrastructure. Imagine no blockade or restriction on materials. Imagine commerce with Israel and Egypt and the rest of the world. Israel now views Gaza as a failed experiment in self-determination and withdrawal." This why one needs to keep returning to the issue of ideologies. None of the above could or would ever have be achieved because it doesn't fit in with their ideology. None of the above would further their ideologies so they have no priority. Their focus is not about helping their own nor improving their own situation either. | |||
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"The Hamas vision is a world conquered by islam. An integral part of that vision, and their specific fight, is the elimination of any state in the Levant that is not ruled by Islam. Others will be tolerated as long as they submit to Islamic rule. Everything that they do is within this context. It's not a nationalistic movement, except as that aligns with their overarching goal. This is in contrast to some other Palestinian movements/entities, which do want a state. Hamas will do whatever it takes to achieve this vision, over the longer term. Should this require a strategic pause or even nominal capitulation to Israel, then so be it, but every action is designed to eradicate Israel. A two-state solution is a stepping-stone to the eventual eradication of Israel, in their view. Hamas desperately needs to rearm, retrain, recruit. They cannot do that under fire. They can do that from within a state over the next couple of decades. So... Hamas will fight until they or Israel are defeated. That fight may be active combat or preparing for the next combat. They say that they will disarm if Palestine is recognised as a state with Jerusalem as its capital. Does that make Israel safe? Israel won't think so. From an Israeli perspective, they will just be fighting a better equipped (state) enemy in 20 years (with a foothold in Jerusalem), which is, on balance, probably the intention of Hamas. That's not to say that a two-state solution is impossible. But it will take trust that will take decades to build." I'd agree with much of that. I'm not too sure about the religious element though. I see parallels with NI with the PIRA calling themselves Catholics and the UDA and UVF calling themselves Protestants but really it wasn't about religion. Hamas are very conservative so religion is a big part of their thinking for sure but it's also a convenient cover for good old fashioned jingoistic nationalism. | |||
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"Imagine if all the manpower and materials that went into tunnels and missiles instead went into civilian infrastructure. Imagine no blockade or restriction on materials. Imagine commerce with Israel and Egypt and the rest of the world. Israel now views Gaza as a failed experiment in self-determination and withdrawal." The real reason for the withdrawl according to Dov Weissglass, Ariel Sharon's senior adviser... "The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. That is exactly what happened. You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did." | |||
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"The real reason for the withdrawl according to Dov Weissglass, Ariel Sharon's senior adviser... "The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process..." " Taking all that at face value, it was still a completely blown opportunity. | |||
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"Taking all that at face value, it was still a completely blown opportunity." Possibly, probably, I don't know. AFAIK all of the blockades from prior years were still in place, so Gaza wasn't going to become Singapore. I think all that actually happened was that Israel withdrew the settlers. Hamas just made a bad situation worse. Utimately it was about demographics - the Israelis couldn't pretend to be a democracy to the Americans because there were too many non-voters in the areas under their control. Shimon Peres admitted "We are disengaging from Gaza because of demography". | |||
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"The naivety of thinking Hamas or whoever replaces them will simply stop at a 2 state solution is incredible. " The only 2 state solution wanted by Hamas is one where the second state is permanently at war with Israel. | |||
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" I have said this many times before, the lack of pushback on Hamas from people who claim to want the war to end is baffling. It's been explained to you multiple times. I know it has, and I'm still baffled by the lack of ownership associated to Hamas and their ongoing war, by the same people who call for an end to the war. Shocking to be fair. " It's hard to believe anyone genuinely believes this. | |||
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"The naivety of thinking Hamas or whoever replaces them will simply stop at a 2 state solution is incredible. The only 2 state solution wanted by Hamas is one where the second state is permanently at war with Israel. " I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well." Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best." And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying " Who's being paid? | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid?" Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind." The sub terrainian tunnels are part of gaza will they be rebuilt with the same building regs. a/c and defibrillators included. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind." That's a lot of wedge for them. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them." Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them. Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education. "Not 100% sure I follow. Are you equating a lack of education with an enthusiasm for profiting from ethnic cleansing? | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them. Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education.
Not 100% sure I follow. "Correct. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them. Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education.
Not 100% sure I follow.
Correct."You missed out most of what I said. So I'll assume you are saying I'm correct with my summary of your point being uneducated people will profit from the ethnic cleansing. I would disagree. I don't think ordinary people who will be working on potential building projects in Gaza at some point in the future will be getting the billions that the other chap mentioned. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them. Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education.
Not 100% sure I follow.
Correct.
You missed out most of what I said. So I'll assume you are saying I'm correct with my summary of your point being uneducated people will profit from the ethnic cleansing.
I would disagree. I don't think ordinary people who will be working on potential building projects in Gaza at some point in the future will be getting the billions that the other chap mentioned."I missed most of what you said because it was either nonsense or you just trying to be controversial/combative for the sake of it. So you think the guys cleaning up and rebuilding the place are "profiting from ethnic cleansing". That is one hell of a leap. Following your logic we should just leave it as it is and let the locals rebuild it one brick at a time. Very compassionate. As for the "billions". It will take more than a few dozen Bob's Pete's and Eddie's to put the place right. It was called multiplication when I went to school. Oh and before you start the usual you said/I said obfuscation. It was you that brought "profiting from ethnic cleansing" into the subject. Not me. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them. Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education.
Not 100% sure I follow.
Correct.
You missed out most of what I said. So I'll assume you are saying I'm correct with my summary of your point being uneducated people will profit from the ethnic cleansing.
I would disagree. I don't think ordinary people who will be working on potential building projects in Gaza at some point in the future will be getting the billions that the other chap mentioned.
I missed most of what you said because it was either nonsense or you just trying to be controversial/combative for the sake of it.
So you think the guys cleaning up and rebuilding the place are "profiting from ethnic cleansing". That is one hell of a leap."No, that's your premise when you answered my question. " Following your logic we should just leave it as it is and let the locals rebuild it one brick at a time. Very compassionate. As for the "billions". It will take more than a few dozen Bob's Pete's and Eddie's to put the place right. It was called multiplication when I went to school. Oh and before you start the usual you said/I said obfuscation. It was you that brought "profiting from ethnic cleansing" into the subject. Not me." You seem to be missing the point by a country mile. I'm not sure how else to put it other than, I had asked who is getting paid the "billions" that the other chap mentioned. You said it was some builders. I said that doesn't seem accurate. And here we are. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them. Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education.
Not 100% sure I follow.
Correct.
You missed out most of what I said. So I'll assume you are saying I'm correct with my summary of your point being uneducated people will profit from the ethnic cleansing.
I would disagree. I don't think ordinary people who will be working on potential building projects in Gaza at some point in the future will be getting the billions that the other chap mentioned.
I missed most of what you said because it was either nonsense or you just trying to be controversial/combative for the sake of it.
So you think the guys cleaning up and rebuilding the place are "profiting from ethnic cleansing". That is one hell of a leap.
No, that's your premise when you answered my question.
Following your logic we should just leave it as it is and let the locals rebuild it one brick at a time. Very compassionate.
As for the "billions". It will take more than a few dozen Bob's Pete's and Eddie's to put the place right.
It was called multiplication when I went to school.
Oh and before you start the usual you said/I said obfuscation. It was you that brought "profiting from ethnic cleansing" into the subject. Not me.
You seem to be missing the point by a country mile. I'm not sure how else to put it other than, I had asked who is getting paid the "billions" that the other chap mentioned. You said it was some builders. I said that doesn't seem accurate. And here we are."Well I would think that builders would be the obvious choice. What were you thinking? Racing drivers, airline pilots, shop assistants, maybe rope in a few artists to paint pictures to hang on the wall. The opportunities are endless. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them. Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education.
Not 100% sure I follow.
Correct.
You missed out most of what I said. So I'll assume you are saying I'm correct with my summary of your point being uneducated people will profit from the ethnic cleansing.
I would disagree. I don't think ordinary people who will be working on potential building projects in Gaza at some point in the future will be getting the billions that the other chap mentioned.
I missed most of what you said because it was either nonsense or you just trying to be controversial/combative for the sake of it.
So you think the guys cleaning up and rebuilding the place are "profiting from ethnic cleansing". That is one hell of a leap.
No, that's your premise when you answered my question.
Following your logic we should just leave it as it is and let the locals rebuild it one brick at a time. Very compassionate.
As for the "billions". It will take more than a few dozen Bob's Pete's and Eddie's to put the place right.
It was called multiplication when I went to school.
Oh and before you start the usual you said/I said obfuscation. It was you that brought "profiting from ethnic cleansing" into the subject. Not me.
You seem to be missing the point by a country mile. I'm not sure how else to put it other than, I had asked who is getting paid the "billions" that the other chap mentioned. You said it was some builders. I said that doesn't seem accurate. And here we are.
Well I would think that builders would be the obvious choice.
What were you thinking? Racing drivers, airline pilots, shop assistants, maybe rope in a few artists to paint pictures to hang on the wall.
The opportunities are endless. "I assume you're deliberately missing the point to try to "win". So I'll leave you to it. | |||
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"I think both sides are tied to toxic ideologies that preclude any common ground being reached towards peaceful coexistence. For that reason it's hard to see a 2 state solution working, and Israel understand that all too well. Which inevitably results in apartheid at best. And £50-60bn to rebuild Gaza. Who’s paying Who's being paid? Bob the builder, Pete the plumber, Eddie the electrician spring to mind. That's a lot of wedge for them. Sure is. Just think. All those graduates with a 3/3 in media studies would be coining it if they'd learned a trade. Now they're flipping burgers in Mucky D's and moaning about student loans. Education. Education. Education.
Not 100% sure I follow.
Correct.
You missed out most of what I said. So I'll assume you are saying I'm correct with my summary of your point being uneducated people will profit from the ethnic cleansing.
I would disagree. I don't think ordinary people who will be working on potential building projects in Gaza at some point in the future will be getting the billions that the other chap mentioned.
I missed most of what you said because it was either nonsense or you just trying to be controversial/combative for the sake of it.
So you think the guys cleaning up and rebuilding the place are "profiting from ethnic cleansing". That is one hell of a leap.
No, that's your premise when you answered my question.
Following your logic we should just leave it as it is and let the locals rebuild it one brick at a time. Very compassionate.
As for the "billions". It will take more than a few dozen Bob's Pete's and Eddie's to put the place right.
It was called multiplication when I went to school.
Oh and before you start the usual you said/I said obfuscation. It was you that brought "profiting from ethnic cleansing" into the subject. Not me.
You seem to be missing the point by a country mile. I'm not sure how else to put it other than, I had asked who is getting paid the "billions" that the other chap mentioned. You said it was some builders. I said that doesn't seem accurate. And here we are.
Well I would think that builders would be the obvious choice.
What were you thinking? Racing drivers, airline pilots, shop assistants, maybe rope in a few artists to paint pictures to hang on the wall.
The opportunities are endless.
I assume you're deliberately missing the point to try to "win". So I'll leave you to it."You mean there actually was a point. | |||
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" I assume you're deliberately missing the point to try to "win". So I'll leave you to it." Wouldn't it be easier to say something like "there is a clear plan for Western governments and their cronies to profit off the misery of Palestinians by allocating massive aid budgets that are earmarked for friendly construction and security contracting firms"? Then we could debate whether it's a genuine geological issue or a load of garbage conspiracy theory? Obliquely implying that with pointed questions leaves quite some scope for misinterpretation, deliberate or otherwise. Of course, it also opens up a direct challenge to any nonsense. | |||
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" I assume you're deliberately missing the point to try to "win". So I'll leave you to it. Wouldn't it be easier to say something like "there is a clear plan for Western governments and their cronies to profit off the misery of Palestinians by allocating massive aid budgets that are earmarked for friendly construction and security contracting firms"? Then we could debate whether it's a genuine geological issue or a load of garbage conspiracy theory? Obliquely implying that with pointed questions leaves quite some scope for misinterpretation, deliberate or otherwise. Of course, it also opens up a direct challenge to any nonsense." Thank you for the critique. I simply pointed out was that someone is going to make a lot of money from the potential rebuild. Nothing more, nothing less. | |||
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" I simply pointed out was that someone is going to make a lot of money from the potential rebuild. Nothing more, nothing less." *Someone not a builder (wink) | |||
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" I simply pointed out was that someone is going to make a lot of money from the potential rebuild. Nothing more, nothing less. *Someone not a builder (wink) "If people think a builder will make billions from it, fair play to them. | |||
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" I simply pointed out was that someone is going to make a lot of money from the potential rebuild. Nothing more, nothing less. *Someone not a builder (wink)
If people think a builder will make billions from it, fair play to them."But a few thousand builders Etc. Working for a good few years (as would be the case) would certainly chomp through a few billion. And that's before we start on the cost of materials. It's going to take a lot more than a few grand to sort that lot out. Yes someone will get the contracts, but contracts have to be fulfilled. It's not just builders, plumbers and sparky's. There will be architects, quantity surveyors, crane operators, truck drivers, the list is endless and in their hundreds and thousands. No doubt some will be creamed off the top but trying to make out that it will all go into some fat cat's new superyacht fund is disingenuous to say the least. Oh and don't forget that Hamas (who started the whole shit show) will want their share.  | |||
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" I simply pointed out was that someone is going to make a lot of money from the potential rebuild. Nothing more, nothing less. *Someone not a builder (wink)
If people think a builder will make billions from it, fair play to them.
But a few thousand builders Etc. Working for a good few years (as would be the case) would certainly chomp through a few billion.
And that's before we start on the cost of materials.
It's going to take a lot more than a few grand to sort that lot out.
Yes someone will get the contracts, but contracts have to be fulfilled.
It's not just builders, plumbers and sparky's. There will be architects, quantity surveyors, crane operators, truck drivers, the list is endless and in their hundreds and thousands.
No doubt some will be creamed off the top but trying to make out that it will all go into some fat cat's new superyacht fund is disingenuous to say the least.
Oh and don't forget that Hamas (who started the whole shit show) will want their share."US contracts with US companies so $ recirculates in US economy, Israeli material supplies, cheap local labour and then Protection money racket. | |||
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" I simply pointed out was that someone is going to make a lot of money from the potential rebuild. Nothing more, nothing less. *Someone not a builder (wink)
If people think a builder will make billions from it, fair play to them.
But a few thousand builders Etc. Working for a good few years (as would be the case) would certainly chomp through a few billion.
And that's before we start on the cost of materials.
It's going to take a lot more than a few grand to sort that lot out.
Yes someone will get the contracts, but contracts have to be fulfilled.
It's not just builders, plumbers and sparky's. There will be architects, quantity surveyors, crane operators, truck drivers, the list is endless and in their hundreds and thousands.
No doubt some will be creamed off the top but trying to make out that it will all go into some fat cat's new superyacht fund is disingenuous to say the least.
Oh and don't forget that Hamas (who started the whole shit show) will want their share."Maybe the penny has dropped? | |||
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" I simply pointed out was that someone is going to make a lot of money from the potential rebuild. Nothing more, nothing less. *Someone not a builder (wink)
If people think a builder will make billions from it, fair play to them.
But a few thousand builders Etc. Working for a good few years (as would be the case) would certainly chomp through a few billion.
And that's before we start on the cost of materials.
It's going to take a lot more than a few grand to sort that lot out.
Yes someone will get the contracts, but contracts have to be fulfilled.
It's not just builders, plumbers and sparky's. There will be architects, quantity surveyors, crane operators, truck drivers, the list is endless and in their hundreds and thousands.
No doubt some will be creamed off the top but trying to make out that it will all go into some fat cat's new superyacht fund is disingenuous to say the least.
Oh and don't forget that Hamas (who started the whole shit show) will want their share.
US contracts with US companies so $ recirculates in US economy, Israeli material supplies, cheap local labour and then Protection money racket."Yeah I forgot about the protection racket. More $ for Hamas. Abdul Capone will be rubbing his hands. | |||
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"We have a duty to recognise a Palestinian state as our meddling with the Balfour declaration has provided decades of strife in the region As for all the comments about no state should be recognised until the hostages are released (Do you mean the 1000s of Palestinians including Children in Israeli jails without charge) Thought not. On Oct 9th Hamas pledged to release all hostages , Netanyahu declined knowing full well a War would be the only thing that would stop his Government from dissolving and him facing corruption charges FREE PALESTINE 🇵🇸 FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE" There is a lot to unpack in this.. Oct 9th the Israeli government and Hamas hadn't got a the full number of hostages and no deal to release all hostages taken was ever presented. The corruption charges are live and a court case is underway, the war is not preventing that taking place. When you say "free Palestine" from the river to the sea. What are you actually calling for? | |||
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"We have a duty to recognise a Palestinian state as our meddling with the Balfour declaration has provided decades of strife in the region As for all the comments about no state should be recognised until the hostages are released (Do you mean the 1000s of Palestinians including Children in Israeli jails without charge) Thought not. On Oct 9th Hamas pledged to release all hostages , Netanyahu declined knowing full well a War would be the only thing that would stop his Government from dissolving and him facing corruption charges FREE PALESTINE 🇵🇸 FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE" It seems somewhat unlikely that “Palestinians” are going to be “free” in any widely understood terms. There haven’t been any elections in almost twenty years. Gaza is a corrupt one party Islamist dictatorship which murders opponents and terrorises its own population. Human rights abuses are widespread. Nobody has been stopping Hamas from running Gaza as an open, forward looking democracy focused on economic development and respect for its citizens and neighbours. It just isn’t interested in doing so. I’m not really sure why anyone thinks that is going to change because Starmer and Lammy issue a communique from the north London bunker. | |||
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"We have a duty to recognise a Palestinian state as our meddling with the Balfour declaration has provided decades of strife in the region As for all the comments about no state should be recognised until the hostages are released (Do you mean the 1000s of Palestinians including Children in Israeli jails without charge) Thought not. On Oct 9th Hamas pledged to release all hostages , Netanyahu declined knowing full well a War would be the only thing that would stop his Government from dissolving and him facing corruption charges FREE PALESTINE 🇵🇸 FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE" The Uk, France and others provided security guarantees to Ukraine under the Budapest agreement. Decades later these agreements are worthless | |||
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"We have a duty to recognise a Palestinian state as our meddling with the Balfour declaration has provided decades of strife in the region As for all the comments about no state should be recognised until the hostages are released (Do you mean the 1000s of Palestinians including Children in Israeli jails without charge) Thought not. On Oct 9th Hamas pledged to release all hostages , Netanyahu declined knowing full well a War would be the only thing that would stop his Government from dissolving and him facing corruption charges FREE PALESTINE 🇵🇸 FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE" I can produce quotations from the meeting at Wannsee 1942!? I had no idea quotations on the extermination of Jews were acceptable on this branch social media but then again it's all part of the new racist normal as identified in the Mann and Mordaunt report from June this year. | |||
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