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"Will they take his medals back and pass down thats what should happen " Absolutely | |||
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"Weird that the report is from New Delhi when chromosome testing wasn't a part of IBA standard testing, and the WADA (who were the people actually testing the samples for the IBA) don't appear to have a presence there. The announcement is only that chromosome testing would be required to compete other than that 💜" So you are saying the report is fake? The drs have falsified the data? | |||
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"Weird that the report is from New Delhi when chromosome testing wasn't a part of IBA standard testing, and the WADA (who were the people actually testing the samples for the IBA) don't appear to have a presence there. The announcement is only that chromosome testing would be required to compete other than that 💜 So you are saying the report is fake? The drs have falsified the data?" I'm saying it's strange. If a cropped shot of legible handwriting in English from an Indian doctor about an Algerian patient for a test that had no reason to be done at that time in that place is enough for you to call it absolute proof, so be it. Given how wildly illegal it is to disclose a patients medical information without consent even over there I don't believe any doctor is going to stand up and confirm it 💜 | |||
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"Weird that the report is from New Delhi when chromosome testing wasn't a part of IBA standard testing, and the WADA (who were the people actually testing the samples for the IBA) don't appear to have a presence there. The announcement is only that chromosome testing would be required to compete other than that 💜 So you are saying the report is fake? The drs have falsified the data? I'm saying it's strange. If a cropped shot of legible handwriting in English from an Indian doctor about an Algerian patient for a test that had no reason to be done at that time in that place is enough for you to call it absolute proof, so be it. Given how wildly illegal it is to disclose a patients medical information without consent even over there I don't believe any doctor is going to stand up and confirm it 💜" Nothing strangest for my mind. Either you believe it's falsified or not. Donyou believenits falsified and the Dr has lied about the Karyotype? | |||
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"Nothing strangest for my mind. Either you believe it's falsified or not. Donyou believenits falsified and the Dr has lied about the Karyotype?" One cropped image with a translation typed over it and the original text completely removed doesn't mean anything to me. I could write dogs can't look up over a vogue cover and it doesn't mean the vogue editors believe that dogs can't look up. Given that it went up 2 days ago and no reputable outlet has considered it worth mentioning, while they do mention the IOC eligibility and Khelif in general, I'm probably not the only one with doubts 💜 | |||
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"Nothing strangest for my mind. Either you believe it's falsified or not. Donyou believenits falsified and the Dr has lied about the Karyotype? One cropped image with a translation typed over it and the original text completely removed doesn't mean anything to me. I could write dogs can't look up over a vogue cover and it doesn't mean the vogue editors believe that dogs can't look up. Given that it went up 2 days ago and no reputable outlet has considered it worth mentioning, while they do mention the IOC eligibility and Khelif in general, I'm probably not the only one with doubts 💜" So you are saying the journalist lied then? | |||
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"Nothing strangest for my mind. Either you believe it's falsified or not. Donyou believenits falsified and the Dr has lied about the Karyotype? One cropped image with a translation typed over it and the original text completely removed doesn't mean anything to me. I could write dogs can't look up over a vogue cover and it doesn't mean the vogue editors believe that dogs can't look up. Given that it went up 2 days ago and no reputable outlet has considered it worth mentioning, while they do mention the IOC eligibility and Khelif in general, I'm probably not the only one with doubts 💜" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2025/06/01/imane-khelif-medical-report-proves-biological-male/ | |||
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"Nothing strangest for my mind. Either you believe it's falsified or not. Donyou believenits falsified and the Dr has lied about the Karyotype? One cropped image with a translation typed over it and the original text completely removed doesn't mean anything to me. I could write dogs can't look up over a vogue cover and it doesn't mean the vogue editors believe that dogs can't look up. Given that it went up 2 days ago and no reputable outlet has considered it worth mentioning, while they do mention the IOC eligibility and Khelif in general, I'm probably not the only one with doubts 💜 So you are saying the journalist lied then?" The story was broken by Alan Abramson, a leading US Sports writer on his own website which is absolutely a reputable source. In the UK this story has been led by Oliver Brown, another leading sports writer, in the Telegraph, a mainstream media outlet which is subject to Britain's very strict libel laws. The tests on Khelif were carried out by a reputable Dr at a fully accredited facility. There is no credible counter evidence that these results were falsified or that the journalist are lying, or even mistaken. | |||
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"Of course if Khelif wishes to continue boxing then they can easily resolve the question by use of a simple swab test." At least going forward both versions of the " governing bodies" will make these atheletes do a karyotype test. No escaping. What's the betting there's a retirement on the horizon. I do think it's strange that Khelif has not boxed again since the olympics in an amateur or professional capacity with the world championships coming up in September. | |||
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"Of course if Khelif wishes to continue boxing then they can easily resolve the question by use of a simple swab test. At least going forward both versions of the " governing bodies" will make these atheletes do a karyotype test. No escaping. What's the betting there's a retirement on the horizon. I do think it's strange that Khelif has not boxed again since the olympics in an amateur or professional capacity with the world championships coming up in September." I think we can guarantee there won't be a continuation of their career in the men's ranks | |||
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"Nothing strangest for my mind. Either you believe it's falsified or not. Donyou believenits falsified and the Dr has lied about the Karyotype? One cropped image with a translation typed over it and the original text completely removed doesn't mean anything to me. I could write dogs can't look up over a vogue cover and it doesn't mean the vogue editors believe that dogs can't look up. Given that it went up 2 days ago and no reputable outlet has considered it worth mentioning, while they do mention the IOC eligibility and Khelif in general, I'm probably not the only one with doubts 💜 So you are saying the journalist lied then? The story was broken by Alan Abramson, a leading US Sports writer on his own website which is absolutely a reputable source. In the UK this story has been led by Oliver Brown, another leading sports writer, in the Telegraph, a mainstream media outlet which is subject to Britain's very strict libel laws. The tests on Khelif were carried out by a reputable Dr at a fully accredited facility. There is no credible counter evidence that these results were falsified or that the journalist are lying, or even mistaken." Which reputable doctor is that? I only see the header for the lab and the text added over the whitespace. You can believe it if you like. It seems questionable to me. But then I'm not really that invested in the results. If she does happen to be XY, then she won't be competing in competitions where that's the defining line. Which is perfectly fine if those are the terms that apply to all competitors 💜 | |||
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"Nothing strangest for my mind. Either you believe it's falsified or not. Donyou believenits falsified and the Dr has lied about the Karyotype? One cropped image with a translation typed over it and the original text completely removed doesn't mean anything to me. I could write dogs can't look up over a vogue cover and it doesn't mean the vogue editors believe that dogs can't look up. Given that it went up 2 days ago and no reputable outlet has considered it worth mentioning, while they do mention the IOC eligibility and Khelif in general, I'm probably not the only one with doubts 💜 So you are saying the journalist lied then? The story was broken by Alan Abramson, a leading US Sports writer on his own website which is absolutely a reputable source. In the UK this story has been led by Oliver Brown, another leading sports writer, in the Telegraph, a mainstream media outlet which is subject to Britain's very strict libel laws. The tests on Khelif were carried out by a reputable Dr at a fully accredited facility. There is no credible counter evidence that these results were falsified or that the journalist are lying, or even mistaken. Which reputable doctor is that? I only see the header for the lab and the text added over the whitespace. You can believe it if you like. It seems questionable to me. But then I'm not really that invested in the results. If she does happen to be XY, then she won't be competing in competitions where that's the defining line. Which is perfectly fine if those are the terms that apply to all competitors 💜" The one analysing the tests at the certified lab | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab" Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some. | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some." Why would you hang your hat on this? | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some. Why would you hang your hat on this?" It's just because reputable doctor was specified, I was just wondering who the reputable doctor was 💜 | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some. Why would you hang your hat on this? It's just because reputable doctor was specified, I was just wondering who the reputable doctor was 💜" If you have evidence that unqualified staff have been carrying out tests at the Dr Lal Pathlabs facility then please provide a source for that. | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some. Why would you hang your hat on this? It's just because reputable doctor was specified, I was just wondering who the reputable doctor was 💜" Do you have no doubt regarding the legitimacy of this boxers eligibility to box as a woman? | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some. Why would you hang your hat on this? It's just because reputable doctor was specified, I was just wondering who the reputable doctor was 💜 If you have evidence that unqualified staff have been carrying out tests at the Dr Lal Pathlabs facility then please provide a source for that." 🙄 I simply asked who the reputable doctor was. If it's an unnamed anybody at the facility then simply at a fully accredited facility covers it without needless fluff to try and make it sound more legitimate. Jacques Young who was coauthor of the previous 'leaked' report on Khelif from Paris was openly named, it's not like it's unreasonable to ask if there was a name when you specified a reputable doctor 💜 | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some. Why would you hang your hat on this? It's just because reputable doctor was specified, I was just wondering who the reputable doctor was 💜 Do you have no doubt regarding the legitimacy of this boxers eligibility to box as a woman? " I believe she was identified female at birth and raised as a woman, and met all the required eligibility to compete as she did at the Olympics. If she is no longer eligible with the new criteria and testing regimes, then she'll have to find a new career 💜 | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some. Why would you hang your hat on this? It's just because reputable doctor was specified, I was just wondering who the reputable doctor was 💜 Do you have no doubt regarding the legitimacy of this boxers eligibility to box as a woman? I believe she was identified female at birth and raised as a woman, and met all the required eligibility to compete as she did at the Olympics. If she is no longer eligible with the new criteria and testing regimes, then she'll have to find a new career 💜" We are getting to the core of my question, why do you believe, and do not carry doubt. What evidence do you have to underpin your view? | |||
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"Do you have no doubt regarding the legitimacy of this boxers eligibility to box as a woman? I believe she was identified female at birth and raised as a woman, and met all the required eligibility to compete as she did at the Olympics. If she is no longer eligible with the new criteria and testing regimes, then she'll have to find a new career 💜 We are getting to the core of my question, why do you believe, and do not carry doubt. What evidence do you have to underpin your view?" Algeria is quite violently anti trans, they would not allow a trans competitor to besmirch their country's name. There are pictures of her as a little girl. The majority of people never have their chromosomes tested and live their lives as the sex they were assigned at birth determined by their phenotype. To have been declared female on her birth certificate she must have presented with reasonably normal female genitalia at the time 💜 | |||
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"Do you have no doubt regarding the legitimacy of this boxers eligibility to box as a woman? I believe she was identified female at birth and raised as a woman, and met all the required eligibility to compete as she did at the Olympics. If she is no longer eligible with the new criteria and testing regimes, then she'll have to find a new career 💜 We are getting to the core of my question, why do you believe, and do not carry doubt. What evidence do you have to underpin your view? Algeria is quite violently anti trans, they would not allow a trans competitor to besmirch their country's name. There are pictures of her as a little girl. The majority of people never have their chromosomes tested and live their lives as the sex they were assigned at birth determined by their phenotype. To have been declared female on her birth certificate she must have presented with reasonably normal female genitalia at the time 💜" Success in sport is a powerful political tool, especially at the olympic games. Countries have historically been willing to compromise their principles to gain the win. Therefore, I cant hang my hat on for or against, due to lack of tangible evidence, everything is he said she said. Are you 100% sure? | |||
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"Success in sport is a powerful political tool, especially at the olympic games. Countries have historically been willing to compromise their principles to gain the win. Therefore, I cant hang my hat on for or against, due to lack of tangible evidence, everything is he said she said. Are you 100% sure? " As sure as I am that I'm female. Which is based almost entirely on hearsay and often questioned by people who think I'm not feminine enough. But, since I haven't had a need to test to see otherwise, I'm perfectly settled with that classification. Are you suggesting that they decided when Imane was born they were going to misidentify her and make sure she did lots and lots of sports and really hoped she was good at it? Or that not one family friend or neighbour, sports coach, schoolfriend or anyone would let slip that she used to be a boy until it turned out she was really good at sports and it was decided she could pass as girl enough to win an Olympic medal? Both sound absurd unless you have some other way it came about 💜 | |||
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"Success in sport is a powerful political tool, especially at the olympic games. Countries have historically been willing to compromise their principles to gain the win. Therefore, I cant hang my hat on for or against, due to lack of tangible evidence, everything is he said she said. Are you 100% sure? As sure as I am that I'm female. Which is based almost entirely on hearsay and often questioned by people who think I'm not feminine enough. But, since I haven't had a need to test to see otherwise, I'm perfectly settled with that classification. Are you suggesting that they decided when Imane was born they were going to misidentify her and make sure she did lots and lots of sports and really hoped she was good at it? Or that not one family friend or neighbour, sports coach, schoolfriend or anyone would let slip that she used to be a boy until it turned out she was really good at sports and it was decided she could pass as girl enough to win an Olympic medal? Both sound absurd unless you have some other way it came about 💜" i'm suggesting nothing at all, as I have alluded to in my replies. I'm curious as to why anyone would be 100% sure of the facts of this story based on nothing more than media output. You have nailed your flag to a post based on feelings and some probability that your feelings are correct. I would say the exactly the same to anyone who believes the counter to you. | |||
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"i'm suggesting nothing at all, as I have alluded to in my replies. I'm curious as to why anyone would be 100% sure of the facts of this story based on nothing more than media output. You have nailed your flag to a post based on feelings and some probability that your feelings are correct. I would say the exactly the same to anyone who believes the counter to you." Suggesting was the wrong word. What reasonable version of events leads to her being otherwise? I have yet to come across one that makes enough logical sense to me. I don't assume everyone around me is trans or part of some big conspiracy in general. Without a reason to actually doubt the standard chain of events I will assume things played out along the usual lines. I said earlier if it turns out she has XY chromosomes, which should imply that I'm not nailed to a post on her not having such. If herself, her passport and her family all proclaim identified female from birth then that seems a reasonable thing to believe true 💜 | |||
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"The one analysing the tests at the certified lab Ah okay, they're a reputable doctor because they work at a lab. I suppose that's enough for some." So then you're saying they falsified the result? | |||
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"Undoubtedly Khelif is a victim of this situation too. The IOC's actions were a complete disgrace." It's not just khelif whose the victim of this situation not being clarified sooner. If they are stripped of their medals you can't fairly just push everyone else up a position like in swimming or running etc. All those boxers which lost to khelif in the previous rounds might have made the finals if it wasn't for the draw. You'll never know the true result. | |||
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"Undoubtedly Khelif is a victim of this situation too. The IOC's actions were a complete disgrace. It's not just khelif whose the victim of this situation not being clarified sooner. If they are stripped of their medals you can't fairly just push everyone else up a position like in swimming or running etc. All those boxers which lost to khelif in the previous rounds might have made the finals if it wasn't for the draw. You'll never know the true result." Very good point, and same applies to Lin Yu Ting who also won gold having previously failed a sex test. | |||
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"Undoubtedly Khelif is a victim of this situation too. The IOC's actions were a complete disgrace. It's not just khelif whose the victim of this situation not being clarified sooner. If they are stripped of their medals you can't fairly just push everyone else up a position like in swimming or running etc. All those boxers which lost to khelif in the previous rounds might have made the finals if it wasn't for the draw. You'll never know the true result. Very good point, and same applies to Lin Yu Ting who also won gold having previously failed a sex test." For me the ioc chief should be looked at for charges of criminal endangerment. They completely ignored IBA warnings. And just for clarity it wasn't just 1 lab in New Dheli. There were 2 tests performed. The other poster seems to believe only 1 was done. The chief had both sets of results. They were told the accounts of what was seen in changing rooms on khelif and lin, they were given the test results. They ignored them and put 2 men in the ring with women endangering their lives. The behaviour of the ioc was atrocious on this | |||
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"Undoubtedly Khelif is a victim of this situation too. The IOC's actions were a complete disgrace. It's not just khelif whose the victim of this situation not being clarified sooner. If they are stripped of their medals you can't fairly just push everyone else up a position like in swimming or running etc. All those boxers which lost to khelif in the previous rounds might have made the finals if it wasn't for the draw. You'll never know the true result. Very good point, and same applies to Lin Yu Ting who also won gold having previously failed a sex test. For me the ioc chief should be looked at for charges of criminal endangerment. They completely ignored IBA warnings. And just for clarity it wasn't just 1 lab in New Dheli. There were 2 tests performed. The other poster seems to believe only 1 was done. The chief had both sets of results. They were told the accounts of what was seen in changing rooms on khelif and lin, they were given the test results. They ignored them and put 2 men in the ring with women endangering their lives. The behaviour of the ioc was atrocious on this" Equally all those journalists and pundits who defended them, like the BBC's Steve Bunce. | |||
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"Undoubtedly Khelif is a victim of this situation too. The IOC's actions were a complete disgrace." I’m still confused confused here…. World boxing used her name as an example in a report saying that an athlete will need to have biological test in future to compete And then apologised for using her name in the public report She has passed all tests asked of her so far done by World Boxing (the IOC body registered for amateur boxing) and WADA (the IOC drug testing body assigned to do all testing) The only thing we have so far that the disgraced body, the IBA, say they did a test, in a disgraced non WADA approved Russian lab, leaked by a Russian newspaper which no one has ever seen the results from because it went missing The interesting thing is she was due to box at the weekend… but world boxing have pulled her out until further tests are done So … legally spoken she hasn’t done anything wrong, she has never refused to do any test not legally obliged to.. and she is still being hounded! You all make her out to be rocky marciano.. but her amateur record at international level is something like 41-9 , which means 9 women have beaten her in the past…. Did she suddenly become more “manly” or something? So if there is now evidence from this Indian doctor the surely if he works in a WADA approved facility, then just pass those on | |||
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" Equally all those journalists and pundits who defended them, like the BBC's Steve Bunce." When it comes to boxing, both professional and amateur, there are not many people trusted in the world more than Steve bunce You are all throwing out the word man/male very liberally, but the more I hear the more it reminds of the case of South African runner caster semenya and world athletics Upshot being she was being people by 2 seconds at 800 meters, people wouldn’t compete against her, it was found that she was a woman but she had such high elevated testosterone levels that she had an advantage, so she was not allowed to compete until she was put on a course of drugs that brought down those levels to an acceptable standard | |||
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"Undoubtedly Khelif is a victim of this situation too. The IOC's actions were a complete disgrace. I’m still confused confused here…. World boxing used her name as an example in a report saying that an athlete will need to have biological test in future to compete And then apologised for using her name in the public report She has passed all tests asked of her so far done by World Boxing (the IOC body registered for amateur boxing) and WADA (the IOC drug testing body assigned to do all testing) The only thing we have so far that the disgraced body, the IBA, say they did a test, in a disgraced non WADA approved Russian lab, leaked by a Russian newspaper which no one has ever seen the results from because it went missing The interesting thing is she was due to box at the weekend… but world boxing have pulled her out until further tests are done So … legally spoken she hasn’t done anything wrong, she has never refused to do any test not legally obliged to.. and she is still being hounded! You all make her out to be rocky marciano.. but her amateur record at international level is something like 41-9 , which means 9 women have beaten her in the past…. Did she suddenly become more “manly” or something? So if there is now evidence from this Indian doctor the surely if he works in a WADA approved facility, then just pass those on" But were those genetic tests or drug tests? There is a simple solution to all of this. Take a test. Forget what is legally required and what I was required by the IOC, take a test and prove every wrong. Anyone with nothing to hide would love to prove all the doubters wrong, but they won’t do that and dispute anything else said, the only reason a reasonable innocent individual wouldn’t do that is because they are a bloke who likes beating up women. | |||
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"Undoubtedly Khelif is a victim of this situation too. The IOC's actions were a complete disgrace. I’m still confused confused here…. World boxing used her name as an example in a report saying that an athlete will need to have biological test in future to compete And then apologised for using her name in the public report She has passed all tests asked of her so far done by World Boxing (the IOC body registered for amateur boxing) and WADA (the IOC drug testing body assigned to do all testing) The only thing we have so far that the disgraced body, the IBA, say they did a test, in a disgraced non WADA approved Russian lab, leaked by a Russian newspaper which no one has ever seen the results from because it went missing The interesting thing is she was due to box at the weekend… but world boxing have pulled her out until further tests are done So … legally spoken she hasn’t done anything wrong, she has never refused to do any test not legally obliged to.. and she is still being hounded! You all make her out to be rocky marciano.. but her amateur record at international level is something like 41-9 , which means 9 women have beaten her in the past…. Did she suddenly become more “manly” or something? So if there is now evidence from this Indian doctor the surely if he works in a WADA approved facility, then just pass those on But were those genetic tests or drug tests? There is a simple solution to all of this. Take a test. Forget what is legally required and what I was required by the IOC, take a test and prove every wrong. Anyone with nothing to hide would love to prove all the doubters wrong, but they won’t do that and dispute anything else said, the only reason a reasonable innocent individual wouldn’t do that is because they are a bloke who likes beating up women. " And that is what world boxing have now said….. everyone will need to take the test So if she refuses to take it, she can no longer compete | |||
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"Undoubtedly Khelif is a victim of this situation too. The IOC's actions were a complete disgrace. I’m still confused confused here…. World boxing used her name as an example in a report saying that an athlete will need to have biological test in future to compete And then apologised for using her name in the public report She has passed all tests asked of her so far done by World Boxing (the IOC body registered for amateur boxing) and WADA (the IOC drug testing body assigned to do all testing) The only thing we have so far that the disgraced body, the IBA, say they did a test, in a disgraced non WADA approved Russian lab, leaked by a Russian newspaper which no one has ever seen the results from because it went missing The interesting thing is she was due to box at the weekend… but world boxing have pulled her out until further tests are done So … legally spoken she hasn’t done anything wrong, she has never refused to do any test not legally obliged to.. and she is still being hounded! You all make her out to be rocky marciano.. but her amateur record at international level is something like 41-9 , which means 9 women have beaten her in the past…. Did she suddenly become more “manly” or something? So if there is now evidence from this Indian doctor the surely if he works in a WADA approved facility, then just pass those on" A pretty extraordinary level of misinformation and conspiracy theory in that post. | |||
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" Equally all those journalists and pundits who defended them, like the BBC's Steve Bunce. When it comes to boxing, both professional and amateur, there are not many people trusted in the world more than Steve bunce You are all throwing out the word man/male very liberally, but the more I hear the more it reminds of the case of South African runner caster semenya and world athletics Upshot being she was being people by 2 seconds at 800 meters, people wouldn’t compete against her, it was found that she was a woman but she had such high elevated testosterone levels that she had an advantage, so she was not allowed to compete until she was put on a course of drugs that brought down those levels to an acceptable standard " I think you need to read the semenya case again before comparing to khelif and lin. Semenya has xy chromosomes. No womb, and testicle instead of ovaries and is a true form of intersex. Not just a man pretending to be a woman. Semnya was never found to be a woman by any one. The IAAF case specifically wouldn't apply to some one with xx chromosomes | |||
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" Equally all those journalists and pundits who defended them, like the BBC's Steve Bunce. When it comes to boxing, both professional and amateur, there are not many people trusted in the world more than Steve bunce You are all throwing out the word man/male very liberally, but the more I hear the more it reminds of the case of South African runner caster semenya and world athletics Upshot being she was being people by 2 seconds at 800 meters, people wouldn’t compete against her, it was found that she was a woman but she had such high elevated testosterone levels that she had an advantage, so she was not allowed to compete until she was put on a course of drugs that brought down those levels to an acceptable standard I think you need to read the semenya case again before comparing to khelif and lin. Semenya has xy chromosomes. No womb, and testicle instead of ovaries and is a true form of intersex. Not just a man pretending to be a woman. Semnya was never found to be a woman by any one. The IAAF case specifically wouldn't apply to some one with xx chromosomes " Semenya has fathered two children!! | |||
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" Equally all those journalists and pundits who defended them, like the BBC's Steve Bunce. When it comes to boxing, both professional and amateur, there are not many people trusted in the world more than Steve bunce You are all throwing out the word man/male very liberally, but the more I hear the more it reminds of the case of South African runner caster semenya and world athletics Upshot being she was being people by 2 seconds at 800 meters, people wouldn’t compete against her, it was found that she was a woman but she had such high elevated testosterone levels that she had an advantage, so she was not allowed to compete until she was put on a course of drugs that brought down those levels to an acceptable standard I think you need to read the semenya case again before comparing to khelif and lin. Semenya has xy chromosomes. No womb, and testicle instead of ovaries and is a true form of intersex. Not just a man pretending to be a woman. Semnya was never found to be a woman by any one. The IAAF case specifically wouldn't apply to some one with xx chromosomes Semenya has fathered two children!!" She and her partner have 2 children via IVF…. | |||
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" Equally all those journalists and pundits who defended them, like the BBC's Steve Bunce. When it comes to boxing, both professional and amateur, there are not many people trusted in the world more than Steve bunce You are all throwing out the word man/male very liberally, but the more I hear the more it reminds of the case of South African runner caster semenya and world athletics Upshot being she was being people by 2 seconds at 800 meters, people wouldn’t compete against her, it was found that she was a woman but she had such high elevated testosterone levels that she had an advantage, so she was not allowed to compete until she was put on a course of drugs that brought down those levels to an acceptable standard I think you need to read the semenya case again before comparing to khelif and lin. Semenya has xy chromosomes. No womb, and testicle instead of ovaries and is a true form of intersex. Not just a man pretending to be a woman. Semnya was never found to be a woman by any one. The IAAF case specifically wouldn't apply to some one with xx chromosomes Semenya has fathered two children!! She and her partner have 2 children via IVF…. " Not relevant to the thread and proves nothing | |||
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"I mean most of it is pretty irrelevant to the thread. The short version is that a questionable image of a leaked medical record is out there, with altered text to say male karyotype. Nothing has been confirmed or ratified by a proper authority. People who want to believe she's a man are happy to jump on it. If she has XY, she won't be competing in the women's events going forward. She met the required eligibility testing for her existing medals at the time of the competitions 💜" Someone else’s medical records are totally irrelevant, not “pretty irrelevant”. That’s your short version, here’s another short version….. It has been alleged that a man was allowed to beat women up by the IOC and they gave him a medal for it. There’s an alleged couple of tests that have been done allegedly proving the individual has male karyotype. Some people dispute that this test exists but the IOC admitted that had seen at least one of the tests but questioned the validity of this none existent test. So what did the IOC dispute the validity of? The individual has not supplied any test results that prove they are XX. In fact they have so far gone to great lengths to avoid such a test. They now have no choice but to have a test if they wish to continue to beat women up in a boxing ring. So the short version is they will now either prove everyone wrong and do the test, or they are male. Arguing over a game of darts or a pool tournament is bad enough, but to force women to go into a fight against a man is just disgusting and has got to be illegal. Those defending him do so because the implications of them being wrong will have global ramifications. There are only two options here, they are male and this should never have been allowed. Or they are female and half the world, including me, owes her an apology. There’s only one way to be sure but the bloke is refusing. There is only one reason why he would do that. | |||
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"I mean most of it is pretty irrelevant to the thread. The short version is that a questionable image of a leaked medical record is out there, with altered text to say male karyotype. Nothing has been confirmed or ratified by a proper authority. People who want to believe she's a man are happy to jump on it. If she has XY, she won't be competing in the women's events going forward. She met the required eligibility testing for her existing medals at the time of the competitions 💜 Someone else’s medical records are totally irrelevant, not “pretty irrelevant”. That’s your short version, here’s another short version….. It has been alleged that a man was allowed to beat women up by the IOC and they gave him a medal for it. There’s an alleged couple of tests that have been done allegedly proving the individual has male karyotype. Some people dispute that this test exists but the IOC admitted that had seen at least one of the tests but questioned the validity of this none existent test. So what did the IOC dispute the validity of? The individual has not supplied any test results that prove they are XX. In fact they have so far gone to great lengths to avoid such a test. They now have no choice but to have a test if they wish to continue to beat women up in a boxing ring. So the short version is they will now either prove everyone wrong and do the test, or they are male. Arguing over a game of darts or a pool tournament is bad enough, but to force women to go into a fight against a man is just disgusting and has got to be illegal. Those defending him do so because the implications of them being wrong will have global ramifications. There are only two options here, they are male and this should never have been allowed. Or they are female and half the world, including me, owes her an apology. There’s only one way to be sure but the bloke is refusing. There is only one reason why he would do that. " The rest of the thread is still pretty irrelevant. Like the XY woman who conceived naturally and gave birth. Doesn't matter. The thread title is about someone being confirmed biologically male. The actual is one doctored shot on lab paperwork saying male karyotype. The individual has not been required to provide such to be able to meet all eligibility criteria for their existing medals. Now that it has become a mandatory test, they'll have to prove XX to continue their career. But she was a valid competitor by the rules of the competitions at the time, as was every other competitor in the women's who hadn't provided proof of an XX result to be allowed to compete. As long as conclusive and verified XX test results weren't a requirement, her chromosome patterns aren't the public's business to know. If she chooses not to continue her career after all this shit, her chromosomes continue to be none of the general public's business 💜 | |||
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"I mean most of it is pretty irrelevant to the thread. The short version is that a questionable image of a leaked medical record is out there, with altered text to say male karyotype. Nothing has been confirmed or ratified by a proper authority. People who want to believe she's a man are happy to jump on it. If she has XY, she won't be competing in the women's events going forward. She met the required eligibility testing for her existing medals at the time of the competitions 💜 Someone else’s medical records are totally irrelevant, not “pretty irrelevant”. That’s your short version, here’s another short version….. It has been alleged that a man was allowed to beat women up by the IOC and they gave him a medal for it. There’s an alleged couple of tests that have been done allegedly proving the individual has male karyotype. Some people dispute that this test exists but the IOC admitted that had seen at least one of the tests but questioned the validity of this none existent test. So what did the IOC dispute the validity of? The individual has not supplied any test results that prove they are XX. In fact they have so far gone to great lengths to avoid such a test. They now have no choice but to have a test if they wish to continue to beat women up in a boxing ring. So the short version is they will now either prove everyone wrong and do the test, or they are male. Arguing over a game of darts or a pool tournament is bad enough, but to force women to go into a fight against a man is just disgusting and has got to be illegal. Those defending him do so because the implications of them being wrong will have global ramifications. There are only two options here, they are male and this should never have been allowed. Or they are female and half the world, including me, owes her an apology. There’s only one way to be sure but the bloke is refusing. There is only one reason why he would do that. The rest of the thread is still pretty irrelevant. Like the XY woman who conceived naturally and gave birth. Doesn't matter. The thread title is about someone being confirmed biologically male. The actual is one doctored shot on lab paperwork saying male karyotype. The individual has not been required to provide such to be able to meet all eligibility criteria for their existing medals. Now that it has become a mandatory test, they'll have to prove XX to continue their career. But she was a valid competitor by the rules of the competitions at the time, as was every other competitor in the women's who hadn't provided proof of an XX result to be allowed to compete. As long as conclusive and verified XX test results weren't a requirement, her chromosome patterns aren't the public's business to know. If she chooses not to continue her career after all this shit, her chromosomes continue to be none of the general public's business 💜" You are stretching the spirit of sport and the olympics with your statement "But she was a valid competitor by the rules of the competitions at the time, as was every other competitor in the women's who hadn't provided proof of an XX result to be allowed to compete. As long as conclusive and verified XX test results weren't a requirement, her chromosome patterns aren't the public's business to know". Any sane person would expect female only boxing competitors in a female competition. Your logic suggests, if a requirement isn't captured in the rules it is fair game to exploit that? Is that really what you think? | |||
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"You are stretching the spirit of sport and the olympics with your statement "But she was a valid competitor by the rules of the competitions at the time, as was every other competitor in the women's who hadn't provided proof of an XX result to be allowed to compete. As long as conclusive and verified XX test results weren't a requirement, her chromosome patterns aren't the public's business to know". Any sane person would expect female only boxing competitors in a female competition. Your logic suggests, if a requirement isn't captured in the rules it is fair game to exploit that? Is that really what you think? " If she was identified female at birth and raised as a woman, she is not exploiting the rules by competing with everyone else who considers themselves female by the same reasons. The eligibility was based on the usual way women are identified. There's nothing wrong with her competing there. That she doesn't look feminine enough to some people is irrelevant. When verified testing is mandatory and regulated rather than strangely cropped shots of doctored images claiming to be a (highly illegal) leak of her medical records, then we can rely on that to make sure competitors adhere to whatever specifications are required. If XX/XY testing becomes the defining point of eligibility, then if she competes without fulfilling those requirements then that's a problem 💜 | |||
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"I mean most of it is pretty irrelevant to the thread. The short version is that a questionable image of a leaked medical record is out there, with altered text to say male karyotype. Nothing has been confirmed or ratified by a proper authority. People who want to believe she's a man are happy to jump on it. If she has XY, she won't be competing in the women's events going forward. She met the required eligibility testing for her existing medals at the time of the competitions 💜 Someone else’s medical records are totally irrelevant, not “pretty irrelevant”. That’s your short version, here’s another short version….. It has been alleged that a man was allowed to beat women up by the IOC and they gave him a medal for it. There’s an alleged couple of tests that have been done allegedly proving the individual has male karyotype. Some people dispute that this test exists but the IOC admitted that had seen at least one of the tests but questioned the validity of this none existent test. So what did the IOC dispute the validity of? The individual has not supplied any test results that prove they are XX. In fact they have so far gone to great lengths to avoid such a test. They now have no choice but to have a test if they wish to continue to beat women up in a boxing ring. So the short version is they will now either prove everyone wrong and do the test, or they are male. Arguing over a game of darts or a pool tournament is bad enough, but to force women to go into a fight against a man is just disgusting and has got to be illegal. Those defending him do so because the implications of them being wrong will have global ramifications. There are only two options here, they are male and this should never have been allowed. Or they are female and half the world, including me, owes her an apology. There’s only one way to be sure but the bloke is refusing. There is only one reason why he would do that. The rest of the thread is still pretty irrelevant. Like the XY woman who conceived naturally and gave birth. Doesn't matter. The thread title is about someone being confirmed biologically male. The actual is one doctored shot on lab paperwork saying male karyotype. The individual has not been required to provide such to be able to meet all eligibility criteria for their existing medals. Now that it has become a mandatory test, they'll have to prove XX to continue their career. But she was a valid competitor by the rules of the competitions at the time, as was every other competitor in the women's who hadn't provided proof of an XX result to be allowed to compete. As long as conclusive and verified XX test results weren't a requirement, her chromosome patterns aren't the public's business to know. If she chooses not to continue her career after all this shit, her chromosomes continue to be none of the general public's business 💜 You are stretching the spirit of sport and the olympics with your statement "But she was a valid competitor by the rules of the competitions at the time, as was every other competitor in the women's who hadn't provided proof of an XX result to be allowed to compete. As long as conclusive and verified XX test results weren't a requirement, her chromosome patterns aren't the public's business to know". Any sane person would expect female only boxing competitors in a female competition. Your logic suggests, if a requirement isn't captured in the rules it is fair game to exploit that? Is that really what you think? " There were no rules. The IOC in its infinite wisdom got rid of the IBA who they deferred to historically without another organisation lined up. The IOC rules didn't used to preclude men vs women in the other sports. Because they never needed to because there was no threa to life in 100m etc. Where there were threats e.g taekwondo boxing etc. They deferred to the global body. Essentially as you say. There was 1 shot of them getting into the olymlics because the IOC decided to bury their heads in the sand. Khelif and Lin took it | |||
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"You are stretching the spirit of sport and the olympics with your statement "But she was a valid competitor by the rules of the competitions at the time, as was every other competitor in the women's who hadn't provided proof of an XX result to be allowed to compete. As long as conclusive and verified XX test results weren't a requirement, her chromosome patterns aren't the public's business to know". Any sane person would expect female only boxing competitors in a female competition. Your logic suggests, if a requirement isn't captured in the rules it is fair game to exploit that? Is that really what you think? If she was identified female at birth and raised as a woman, she is not exploiting the rules by competing with everyone else who considers themselves female by the same reasons. The eligibility was based on the usual way women are identified. There's nothing wrong with her competing there. That she doesn't look feminine enough to some people is irrelevant. When verified testing is mandatory and regulated rather than strangely cropped shots of doctored images claiming to be a (highly illegal) leak of her medical records, then we can rely on that to make sure competitors adhere to whatever specifications are required. If XX/XY testing becomes the defining point of eligibility, then if she competes without fulfilling those requirements then that's a problem 💜" By your logic, and I agree they were the rules at the time, any man with a female passport can enter woman’s boxing and beat the shit out of women on national television and get medals and international acclaim for it? So you don’t actually care if they are male or not, you don’t care if those women were beaten by a man on international television. All you care about is out is they had a female passport? Let me tell you, I can get a passport saying I’m female. It’s doesn’t make me a woman. | |||
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"By your logic, and I agree they were the rules at the time, any man with a female passport can enter woman’s boxing and beat the shit out of women on national television and get medals and international acclaim for it? So you don’t actually care if they are male or not, you don’t care if those women were beaten by a man on international television. All you care about is out is they had a female passport? Let me tell you, I can get a passport saying I’m female. It’s doesn’t make me a woman. " They were identified female by the same standard as every other competitor. There is no basis for assuming a known male decided they were female for the sake of sport here. As it stands, standard drug testing which is mandatory for all Olympians will include checking testosterone levels. As much as the IBA claimed her testosterone levels were high enough to get a man banned, she was never banned for doping, even by them. And WADA confirmed they performed no gender testing on those samples at the time. I care that a woman who has been raised as a woman and had no reason to doubt it until the public decided she wasn't feminine enough has had her life's work made a mockery of. If she is intersex and didn't know, there's absolutely no need for the cruelty and vile comments about her. If it turns out she is, I hope she can at least live a peaceful life after all of this shitshow at the freakshow nonsense 💜 | |||
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"By your logic, and I agree they were the rules at the time, any man with a female passport can enter woman’s boxing and beat the shit out of women on national television and get medals and international acclaim for it? So you don’t actually care if they are male or not, you don’t care if those women were beaten by a man on international television. All you care about is out is they had a female passport? Let me tell you, I can get a passport saying I’m female. It’s doesn’t make me a woman. They were identified female by the same standard as every other competitor. There is no basis for assuming a known male decided they were female for the sake of sport here. As it stands, standard drug testing which is mandatory for all Olympians will include checking testosterone levels. As much as the IBA claimed her testosterone levels were high enough to get a man banned, she was never banned for doping, even by them. And WADA confirmed they performed no gender testing on those samples at the time. I care that a woman who has been raised as a woman and had no reason to doubt it until the public decided she wasn't feminine enough has had her life's work made a mockery of. If she is intersex and didn't know, there's absolutely no need for the cruelty and vile comments about her. If it turns out she is, I hope she can at least live a peaceful life after all of this shitshow at the freakshow nonsense 💜" That bloke has had ample opportunity to prove this, yet has refused. They have taken the right to remain silent. But what they haven’t mentioned when questioned is certainly going to go against them if they try to rely on it in court Only guilty people say “no comment” | |||
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"That bloke has had ample opportunity to prove this, yet has refused. They have taken the right to remain silent. But what they haven’t mentioned when questioned is certainly going to go against them if they try to rely on it in court Only guilty people say “no comment”" I don't even show people the contents of my handbag unless it's part of the mandatory search entering a venue. Whatever they think I might be carrying in it or whatever accusations they hurl. Never mind prove medical information which is none of their business 💜 | |||
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"By your logic, and I agree they were the rules at the time, any man with a female passport can enter woman’s boxing and beat the shit out of women on national television and get medals and international acclaim for it? So you don’t actually care if they are male or not, you don’t care if those women were beaten by a man on international television. All you care about is out is they had a female passport? Let me tell you, I can get a passport saying I’m female. It’s doesn’t make me a woman. They were identified female by the same standard as every other competitor. There is no basis for assuming a known male decided they were female for the sake of sport here. As it stands, standard drug testing which is mandatory for all Olympians will include checking testosterone levels. As much as the IBA claimed her testosterone levels were high enough to get a man banned, she was never banned for doping, even by them. And WADA confirmed they performed no gender testing on those samples at the time. I care that a woman who has been raised as a woman and had no reason to doubt it until the public decided she wasn't feminine enough has had her life's work made a mockery of. If she is intersex and didn't know, there's absolutely no need for the cruelty and vile comments about her. If it turns out she is, I hope she can at least live a peaceful life after all of this shitshow at the freakshow nonsense 💜" As I said a few posts up, you have nailed your flag to the post of, "she is a woman". You only have the word of the boxer, that is a hill I wouldn't be prepared to die on. I haven't a clue how this will unravel and wouldn't want to pick a side, although right now it would appear evidence doesn't support your faith in the boxer. | |||
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"As I said a few posts up, you have nailed your flag to the post of, "she is a woman". You only have the word of the boxer, that is a hill I wouldn't be prepared to die on. I haven't a clue how this will unravel and wouldn't want to pick a side, although right now it would appear evidence doesn't support your faith in the boxer." As I said, I don't see a reasonable explanation of how it came to be otherwise. Perhaps I should stop expecting the best of people. But I'm an eternal optimist 💜 | |||
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"That bloke has had ample opportunity to prove this, yet has refused. They have taken the right to remain silent. But what they haven’t mentioned when questioned is certainly going to go against them if they try to rely on it in court Only guilty people say “no comment” I don't even show people the contents of my handbag unless it's part of the mandatory search entering a venue. Whatever they think I might be carrying in it or whatever accusations they hurl. Never mind prove medical information which is none of their business 💜" They made it other peoples business when they entered the Olympics | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself." What “reliable, verified evidence” is there that they are female? A passport? I can buy one of them for £500 so beither reliable or verified. | |||
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"They made it other peoples business when they entered the Olympics " Where they met all of the eligibility criteria with no evidence of malicious intent 💜 | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself. What “reliable, verified evidence” is there that they are female? A passport? I can buy one of them for £500 so beither reliable or verified. " Since this boxer (at present knowledge) has lived as a woman, has a father saying that they are a woman, was certified as female at birth, I’d say the onus is on those who think otherwise to come up something concrete to prove otherwise. We have innocent until proven guilty? The equivalent in this case has to be female until proven otherwise. | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself." 🤣 | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself. 🤣" Feel free to laugh. You’ve got no solid evidence at present that this boxer is anything other than what has been presented. Now evidence may arise one way or the other (and I suspect that whatever evidence arises won’t be enough for a small number of folk on ‘both sides’ of the discussion) | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself. 🤣 Feel free to laugh. You’ve got no solid evidence at present that this boxer is anything other than what has been presented. Now evidence may arise one way or the other (and I suspect that whatever evidence arises won’t be enough for a small number of folk on ‘both sides’ of the discussion) " Tests from reputable and approved lab showing xy chromosones. Banned by World Boxing having failed two gender tests. Evidence from opponents saying they'd never been hit so hard. Visible appearance of male musculature. Refusal to take simple swab test. Coach carrying Khelif on his shoulders, absolutely unthinkable for a female athlete in Muslim culture. No solid evidence there, let's let him keep beating up women.🤦 | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself." Disagree 2 x lab results say otherwise. If you are saying they don't. Then as per statements above. Are you saying the laboratories and the drs involved are acting fraudulently. Are you saying the reporters are purposfefully misrepresenting what they've been sent? | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself. 🤣 Feel free to laugh. You’ve got no solid evidence at present that this boxer is anything other than what has been presented. Now evidence may arise one way or the other (and I suspect that whatever evidence arises won’t be enough for a small number of folk on ‘both sides’ of the discussion) Tests from reputable and approved lab showing xy chromosones. Banned by World Boxing having failed two gender tests. Evidence from opponents saying they'd never been hit so hard. Visible appearance of male musculature. Refusal to take simple swab test. Coach carrying Khelif on his shoulders, absolutely unthinkable for a female athlete in Muslim culture. No solid evidence there, let's let him keep beating up women.🤦" This boxer isn’t allowed to box at present, correct? So that’s your last point dealt with. Why would Algeria knowingly allow a trans woman to represent them at the Olympic Games? How has a trans woman never been imprisoned (as happens in Algeria) prior to reaching the point where they’re in THE OLYMPICS and presumably a nationally known figure? The XY chromosome ‘test’ is not verified, it may well turn out to be genuine, but at this moment it remains unverified. Visual appearance isn’t ‘evidence’ of anything. If you think it is, please be careful when you travel around the world | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself. 🤣 Feel free to laugh. You’ve got no solid evidence at present that this boxer is anything other than what has been presented. Now evidence may arise one way or the other (and I suspect that whatever evidence arises won’t be enough for a small number of folk on ‘both sides’ of the discussion) Tests from reputable and approved lab showing xy chromosones. Banned by World Boxing having failed two gender tests. Evidence from opponents saying they'd never been hit so hard. Visible appearance of male musculature. Refusal to take simple swab test. Coach carrying Khelif on his shoulders, absolutely unthinkable for a female athlete in Muslim culture. No solid evidence there, let's let him keep beating up women.🤦" It is weird that we just saw kate abdo have her handshake refused for the same religious reasons. Yet as you say the coach lifted khelif in the air. No fights since. I'm not sure why people think they wouldn't celebrate a person simply cheating the system. Its nothing to do with trans. Men have posed as women in the olympic before simply to win. | |||
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"If you are saying they don't. Then as per statements above. Are you saying the laboratories and the drs involved are acting fraudulently. Are you saying the reporters are purposfefully misrepresenting what they've been sent? " I’m saying nothing definitively, because I’m smart enough to know that all the ‘evidence’ that we see of these tests so far could be fake. Or it could be genuine. | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself. 🤣 Feel free to laugh. You’ve got no solid evidence at present that this boxer is anything other than what has been presented. Now evidence may arise one way or the other (and I suspect that whatever evidence arises won’t be enough for a small number of folk on ‘both sides’ of the discussion) Tests from reputable and approved lab showing xy chromosones. Banned by World Boxing having failed two gender tests. Evidence from opponents saying they'd never been hit so hard. Visible appearance of male musculature. Refusal to take simple swab test. Coach carrying Khelif on his shoulders, absolutely unthinkable for a female athlete in Muslim culture. No solid evidence there, let's let him keep beating up women.🤦 This boxer isn’t allowed to box at present, correct? So that’s your last point dealt with. Why would Algeria knowingly allow a trans woman to represent them at the Olympic Games? How has a trans woman never been imprisoned (as happens in Algeria) prior to reaching the point where they’re in THE OLYMPICS and presumably a nationally known figure? The XY chromosome ‘test’ is not verified, it may well turn out to be genuine, but at this moment it remains unverified. Visual appearance isn’t ‘evidence’ of anything. If you think it is, please be careful when you travel around the world " It is verified though. Again. Are you calling both laboratories fraudulent? Neither one has said that what was disclosed by the iba was false. If the ina was misrepresenting their findings. You think they wouldn't stepping to protect their credibility? I'm not sure why people think 2 laboratories are in cahoots to spreads false information Until khelif takes another test they're a man for me. It's a simple test they could have done at any point in the last year to prove they were a woman. They haven't. I see no reason for the iba, the laboratories to lie. I see no reason why khelif hasn't done a gender test. I see no reason for several other competitors and coaches to lie. occams razor. The obvious answer is staring us all in the face. She is a he. I must also say. Khelif wasn't famous at all before the Italian fighter refused to fight. | |||
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"If you are saying they don't. Then as per statements above. Are you saying the laboratories and the drs involved are acting fraudulently. Are you saying the reporters are purposfefully misrepresenting what they've been sent? I’m saying nothing definitively, because I’m smart enough to know that all the ‘evidence’ that we see of these tests so far could be fake. Or it could be genuine. " Correct then I guess you aren't saying anything. Then the rest of us can say something. We don't believe him. And the evidence is stacked up against khelif. | |||
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"However you cut it, if you’re currently calling this boxer ‘a bloke’ then you’re doing so without reliable, verified evidence, and should be ashamed of yourself. 🤣 Feel free to laugh. You’ve got no solid evidence at present that this boxer is anything other than what has been presented. Now evidence may arise one way or the other (and I suspect that whatever evidence arises won’t be enough for a small number of folk on ‘both sides’ of the discussion) Tests from reputable and approved lab showing xy chromosones. Banned by World Boxing having failed two gender tests. Evidence from opponents saying they'd never been hit so hard. Visible appearance of male musculature. Refusal to take simple swab test. Coach carrying Khelif on his shoulders, absolutely unthinkable for a female athlete in Muslim culture. No solid evidence there, let's let him keep beating up women.🤦 It is weird that we just saw kate abdo have her handshake refused for the same religious reasons. Yet as you say the coach lifted khelif in the air. No fights since. I'm not sure why people think they wouldn't celebrate a person simply cheating the system. Its nothing to do with trans. Men have posed as women in the olympic before simply to win. " To be fair, that footage of Khelif being carried could have been faked by the Russians or aliens. | |||
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"Tests from reputable and approved lab showing xy chromosones. - You cannot actually see any result or description of what the test is for on there even if you did know how to interpret the readings. A single doctored image with the header of an accredited lab and some text claiming to be a translation over it has been pushed by one journalist, and occasionally reported by others as a claimed leak by him rather than them saying it's a true image. Banned by World Boxing having failed two gender tests. - Will be unable to compete until testing has been done. Not banned. Evidence from opponents saying they'd never been hit so hard. - If you're going into a career in boxing and make it to the Olympics, where you'd expect to encounter the best of the best, it seems very odd to be surprised that they hit hard. Visible appearance of male musculature. - ...What male muscular that isn't also visible on the majority of other female boxers? Refusal to take simple swab test. - If the rest of the competitors didn't have to do so, then there's no need to. Coach carrying Khelif on his shoulders, absolutely unthinkable for a female athlete in Muslim culture. - That much exposed skin is absolutely unthinkable for the majority of Muslim culture. Exceptions are made for the world stage 💜" You keep saying doctored image. Please what's been doctored? You keep saying lab. It's labs. It's not 1 image. It's also the iba holding a 2 hour press conference where they definitely said he doesn't have the karyotype required to compete. | |||
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" occams razor. The obvious answer is staring us all in the face. She is a he. " Explain a trans athlete in Algeria then? They imprison and beat LGBTQ+ I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m also not saying you’re right. | |||
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" occams razor. The obvious answer is staring us all in the face. She is a he. Explain a trans athlete in Algeria then? They imprison and beat LGBTQ+ I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m also not saying you’re right. " Quite simple really the positive energy having a world stsr brings and press. The coveting of a person to look up to. Quite easy to overlook it all to be fair. Again khelif isn't trans. Muslim men have donned burqas before. The uae has relaxed much of its laws for gay people, drinking alcohol and such for that western money But you seem to think that they wouldn't endorse a man that " cheated the system" and brought gold home? | |||
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"You keep saying doctored image. Please what's been doctored? You keep saying lab. It's labs. It's not 1 image. It's also the iba holding a 2 hour press conference where they definitely said he doesn't have the karyotype required to compete. " The only 'evidence' I've seen is an image with the Dr Lal Pathlabs header and some obviously added text over it claiming to be a translation of the results. Please do point me in the direction of an actual copy of the results. That one is the only one I'm aware of that hasn't been outright denied by the named co authors or company. They held a conference going on about how her testosterone levels were high enough to get a man banned, yes their samples were sent to a WADA laboratory in that instance, who clarified that they did not do any gender or chromosome testing, and at no point was she suspended for doping, which would have had to happen if she had testosterone levels high enough to get a man banned. The named co author of the results has agreed with comments that his name was being used to push an anti trans agenda. That was the old press conference though, has there been another? 💜 | |||
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" occams razor. The obvious answer is staring us all in the face. She is a he. Explain a trans athlete in Algeria then? They imprison and beat LGBTQ+ I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m also not saying you’re right. Quite simple really the positive energy having a world stsr brings and press. The coveting of a person to look up to. Quite easy to overlook it all to be fair. " I’m not sure you’re aware of just how anti LGBTQ+ Algeria is. | |||
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"You keep saying doctored image. Please what's been doctored? You keep saying lab. It's labs. It's not 1 image. It's also the iba holding a 2 hour press conference where they definitely said he doesn't have the karyotype required to compete. The only 'evidence' I've seen is an image with the Dr Lal Pathlabs header and some obviously added text over it claiming to be a translation of the results. Please do point me in the direction of an actual copy of the results. That one is the only one I'm aware of that hasn't been outright denied by the named co authors or company. They held a conference going on about how her testosterone levels were high enough to get a man banned, yes their samples were sent to a WADA laboratory in that instance, who clarified that they did not do any gender or chromosome testing, and at no point was she suspended for doping, which would have had to happen if she had testosterone levels high enough to get a man banned. The named co author of the results has agreed with comments that his name was being used to push an anti trans agenda. That was the old press conference though, has there been another? 💜" Then I suggest you watch the press conference. They say more than testosterone. They say he didn't have the karyotype to compete. The Russian mentioned testosterone, but the British lead at the conference clearly stated khelif failed tk meet the sexual requirements to compete in the women's category. 2 | |||
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" occams razor. The obvious answer is staring us all in the face. She is a he. Explain a trans athlete in Algeria then? They imprison and beat LGBTQ+ I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m also not saying you’re right. Quite simple really the positive energy having a world stsr brings and press. The coveting of a person to look up to. Quite easy to overlook it all to be fair. I’m not sure you’re aware of just how anti LGBTQ+ Algeria is. " Again nothing about khelif is lgbtq. Again you're coming at this from a a presumption that he's lgbtq. This is some 1 just gaming a system to win gold. | |||
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"Then I suggest you watch the press conference. They say more than testosterone. They say he didn't have the karyotype to compete. The Russian mentioned testosterone, but the British lead at the conference clearly stated khelif failed tk meet the sexual requirements to compete in the women's category. 2 " And WADA confirmed that the testing they did on those samples was not related to sex testing 💜 | |||
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"Then I suggest you watch the press conference. They say more than testosterone. They say he didn't have the karyotype to compete. The Russian mentioned testosterone, but the British lead at the conference clearly stated khelif failed tk meet the sexual requirements to compete in the women's category. 2 And WADA confirmed that the testing they did on those samples was not related to sex testing 💜" No. The sex testing is nothing to do with WADA. | |||
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" occams razor. The obvious answer is staring us all in the face. She is a he. Explain a trans athlete in Algeria then? They imprison and beat LGBTQ+ I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m also not saying you’re right. Quite simple really the positive energy having a world stsr brings and press. The coveting of a person to look up to. Quite easy to overlook it all to be fair. I’m not sure you’re aware of just how anti LGBTQ+ Algeria is. Again nothing about khelif is lgbtq. Again you're coming at this from a a presumption that he's lgbtq. This is some 1 just gaming a system to win gold." It’s not just someone. It’s years of trainers, authorities. Friends, family. Years of opponents and associates keeping their mouths shut. You don’t just rock up at the Olympics and fight. | |||
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"Unless the outcome is intersex, or some weird hormone overload thing. It makes no sense whichever way it turns out. The only outcome that ties up loose ends is that this boxer is female and the test results are fake - but we have no proof about the tests being doctored" They want to be a female boxer The boxer won’t provide a sample for testing that would enable that. Why not? Because they will be proven male, like they already have been and will lose their Olympic medals if they take the test. The medals are more important to them than the truth | |||
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"Unless the outcome is intersex, or some weird hormone overload thing. It makes no sense whichever way it turns out. The only outcome that ties up loose ends is that this boxer is female and the test results are fake - but we have no proof about the tests being doctored They want to be a female boxer " They have been boxing as a female for years. Over 50 amateur fights. | |||
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"Unless the outcome is intersex, or some weird hormone overload thing. It makes no sense whichever way it turns out. The only outcome that ties up loose ends is that this boxer is female and the test results are fake - but we have no proof about the tests being doctored They want to be a female boxer They have been boxing as a female for years. Over 50 amateur fights." Proving what? That there are trusting people in this world that didn’t know any better? | |||
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"Unless the outcome is intersex, or some weird hormone overload thing. It makes no sense whichever way it turns out. The only outcome that ties up loose ends is that this boxer is female and the test results are fake - but we have no proof about the tests being doctored They want to be a female boxer The boxer won’t provide a sample for testing that would enable that. Why not? Because they will be proven male, like they already have been and will lose their Olympic medals if they take the test. The medals are more important to them than the truth " The Olympic statement remains that medals won will remain. She met the eligibility criteria to compete in the games where those were won. I won't go flaps akimbo to prove that I'm not a man, despite my 6ft height and broad shoulders. I sure as hell won't be disclosing medical information to lunatics who decide they can always tell. If it was relevant to a job application and would be treated as the confidential information it is I might consider it, but I'd probably just look for another job. If she continues to compete that means she has done the tests and been confirmed XX. If she doesn't continue to compete, the results of such tests are none of the public's business 💜 | |||
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"Unless the outcome is intersex, or some weird hormone overload thing. It makes no sense whichever way it turns out. The only outcome that ties up loose ends is that this boxer is female and the test results are fake - but we have no proof about the tests being doctored They want to be a female boxer They have been boxing as a female for years. Over 50 amateur fights. Proving what? That there are trusting people in this world that didn’t know any better? " It’s impressive that this wasn’t questioned at any point, no? Again, I’m not saying one way or the other but these are all valid questions. | |||
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" occams razor. The obvious answer is staring us all in the face. She is a he. Explain a trans athlete in Algeria then? They imprison and beat LGBTQ+ I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m also not saying you’re right. Quite simple really the positive energy having a world stsr brings and press. The coveting of a person to look up to. Quite easy to overlook it all to be fair. I’m not sure you’re aware of just how anti LGBTQ+ Algeria is. Again nothing about khelif is lgbtq. Again you're coming at this from a a presumption that he's lgbtq. This is some 1 just gaming a system to win gold. It’s not just someone. It’s years of trainers, authorities. Friends, family. Years of opponents and associates keeping their mouths shut. You don’t just rock up at the Olympics and fight. " Not really. Seriously. Read up on the history of men pretending to be women at the olympics and other championships. It isn't years either. It's not really that much training. Khelif only ever really took part in championships. From 17 onwards by 23 he was world champion with a marked improvement. " you don't just rock up to an Olympics and fight" literally what khelif did at the world championships and then the olympics having never shown one to that ability prior as a teenager. Almost like he had hormones at 20 being a fully grown man and could suddenly compete. "Years of opponents keeping their mouths shut " they literally didn't the IBA began the investigation because other fighters and coaches said he was built like a man, and a coach claimed he saw male appendage when changing in the rooms. | |||
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"Unless the outcome is intersex, or some weird hormone overload thing. It makes no sense whichever way it turns out. The only outcome that ties up loose ends is that this boxer is female and the test results are fake - but we have no proof about the tests being doctored They want to be a female boxer The boxer won’t provide a sample for testing that would enable that. Why not? Because they will be proven male, like they already have been and will lose their Olympic medals if they take the test. The medals are more important to them than the truth " Imane seems keen to take the IBA to court where we will have the documents of his sex provided. The IBA has said they welcome the decision to go to court to finally be able to put the documents into the public domain. Khelif dropped his case at CAS when these documents were required. What's the betting he drops his case again. | |||
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"Imane seems keen to take the IBA to court where we will have the documents of his sex provided. The IBA has said they welcome the decision to go to court to finally be able to put the documents into the public domain. Khelif dropped his case at CAS when these documents were required. What's the betting he drops his case again." Depends what the case is about really. If it's regarding public disclosure of sensitive medical records without consent it's largely irrelevant whether they provide the documents for it at court. If it is regarding their actual karyotype and it is XY then I'm not sure what her case would be exactly. I do find it odd that Lin Yu Ting doesn't get half so much shit for it, when they're noted as not contesting the IBAs decision and then competing in the same games 💜 | |||
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"Any boxer needs to be identified as biological moron.." I presume you mean they are morons for increasing their risk to health doing the activity they choose. But surely that would make virtually everyone on here a moron by partaking in activities which add an increase to their risk to health, especially ones looking for "gangbangs" like yoursel | |||
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"Any boxer needs to be identified as biological moron.. I presume you mean they are morons for increasing their risk to health doing the activity they choose. But surely that would make virtually everyone on here a moron by partaking in activities which add an increase to their risk to health, especially ones looking for "gangbangs" like yoursel" Now I know how to get my profile looked at! | |||
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"Any boxer needs to be identified as biological moron.. I presume you mean they are morons for increasing their risk to health doing the activity they choose. But surely that would make virtually everyone on here a moron by partaking in activities which add an increase to their risk to health, especially ones looking for "gangbangs" like yoursel" Anyone who doesn't 'glove' up for oral increase risk to themselves of catching an STi, Mrs x | |||
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"Any boxer needs to be identified as biological moron.. I presume you mean they are morons for increasing their risk to health doing the activity they choose. But surely that would make virtually everyone on here a moron by partaking in activities which add an increase to their risk to health, especially ones looking for "gangbangs" like yourselAnyone who doesn't 'glove' up for oral increase risk to themselves of catching an STi, Mrs x" For clarification, my crusade is against boxing, not safe sex... | |||
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"Any boxer needs to be identified as biological moron.. I presume you mean they are morons for increasing their risk to health doing the activity they choose. But surely that would make virtually everyone on here a moron by partaking in activities which add an increase to their risk to health, especially ones looking for "gangbangs" like yourself Anyone who doesn't 'glove' up for oral increase risk to themselves of catching an STi, Mrs x For clarification, my crusade is against boxing, not safe sex..." Even safe sex increases your risk to life, admittedly far less than none protected sex but my point was that it's a bit hypocritical when you call people morons for carrying out an activity which increases your risk to health, when you are doing an activity which also increases your risk to health. Surely people should be free to choose what sporting/social activities they want to partake in without being classed as a moron | |||
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" ... Surely people should be free to choose what sporting/social activities they want to partake in without being classed as a moron " .. With the possible exception, for example, of sporting/social activities which involve thumping, often resulting in injury to, other people (of either, or any, sex). In my opinion, which I am equally free to choose! Anyway back to the far more important topic of whatever sex that particular boxer is... | |||
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"Why not just take the test, that would be definitive in this case and would provide proof and closure on the matter. They've only had 9 months to do this, it obviously takes a lot of time ot the person concerned isn't arsed about what people think about them, Mrs x" Exactly! Boxer - “I’m female” IOC - “ok, you can beat other women up” Dr - “they are male, I have a genetic test that proves it” IOC - “aren’t you Russian, you don’t allow LGBT don’t? we don’t like you so your test must be fake” Boxer - “I am female, and I look trans so fits in with your woke ideology. This will look great on international tv” IOC - we don’t really care about the truth, go beat up some women, just hide your cock and balls in the changing room” Another boxer - “I saw his cock in the changing room” IOC - “make sure than transphobe fights the bloke in the next round” 9 months later…. World media - “erm, this test you said didn’t exist has come to light” IOC - Boxer - Sensible person - “hey come on, let’s find out for sure, take another test” IOC - “no matter what, even if they are a bloke, they had a female passport and it was the nearest we had to a trans so they will keep their medals no matter what cos we loved watching a bloke beat up women. Those women need to start accepting than only men are really women, they are just CIS” Boxer - World Governing body - “everyone entering the women’s category need to be tested to prove they are female for the safety of all entrants and fairness” Boxer - Woke brigade - “she’s a woman until you prove otherwise” Sensible people “so you agree they should take a test and prove they are female and put this matter to rest once and for all” Woke brigade - “it’s none of your business, these are private medical records” Sensible people - “so you don’t want to know the truth, you just wanna push your agenda?” Boxer - Woke brigade - “the truth is whatever she says, the test is fake, anyone who doesn’t believe her it a Nazi, especially the none existent fake dr who did the test that doesn’t exist that proves nothing. I can’t believe you’re actually against men who are actually real women, beating up these fake women who are actually CIS and not real women” Ok I admit I’ve used some poetic licence here, but that’s basically the jist of it. | |||
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"Which boxer claims to have seen male genitalia? " Does it matter? I could say my daughter saw it and you still wouldn’t believe me cos you don’t want to believe it. Because that means a bloke has been allowed to beat women up in the Olympics and women have been forced to go along with it. “Take that beating you b i t c h and enjoy it” There wouldn’t be any evidence, no photograph, for example. Would just be their word. Just like theirs no evidence they are female, just their word. | |||
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"Which boxer claims to have seen male genitalia? Does it matter? I could say my daughter saw it and you still wouldn’t believe me cos you don’t want to believe it." I wonder if you recognise the irony here. | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜" Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜" Why are you obsessed by genitalia? It's not relevant here. Nobody from anybody is asking to see them, that would be very inappropriate. It's purely a question of chromosomes. The IOC by removing this requirement did nobody any favours. It means that anyone could say that they had a passport which stipulated a certain sex, this could be different from sex at birth. That's why Trans people were permitted to compete on the Olympics. It doesn't make it right, it just means a decision was made along the lines of 'feelings' and not science. The issue here is chromosomes and it should be confined to that. You either have the stipulated pair or you don't. When you start talking about genitalia people get so emotional, quoting intersex and DSD to suit whatever argument that currently agree with. It's emotive and can be used for and against in this case. What can't is Chromosomes. Nobody needs to look at your bits, it's a simple process to obtain a sample and is scientific, with a definitive answer. Why don't you like this? You will undoubtedly come back with an emotive point but facts always beat feelings when trying to come to a definitive answer. Mrs x | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜Why are you obsessed by genitalia? It's not relevant here. Nobody from anybody is asking to see them, that would be very inappropriate. It's purely a question of chromosomes. The IOC by removing this requirement did nobody any favours. It means that anyone could say that they had a passport which stipulated a certain sex, this could be different from sex at birth. That's why Trans people were permitted to compete on the Olympics. It doesn't make it right, it just means a decision was made along the lines of 'feelings' and not science. The issue here is chromosomes and it should be confined to that. You either have the stipulated pair or you don't. When you start talking about genitalia people get so emotional, quoting intersex and DSD to suit whatever argument that currently agree with. It's emotive and can be used for and against in this case. What can't is Chromosomes. Nobody needs to look at your bits, it's a simple process to obtain a sample and is scientific, with a definitive answer. Why don't you like this? You will undoubtedly come back with an emotive point but facts always beat feelings when trying to come to a definitive answer. Mrs x" The only image that has been provided as "proof" is clearly altered with English text typed over whatever was there, and a clear statement that this is the translation. It is making no claim to be the original unaltered image. I'm not obsessed by genitalia. The comment was that other boxers have said they've seen it, which I don't believe has any foundation. So I was asking in case there actually was someone who openly claimed to have seen it. I've already talked at length about the chromosome and DSD angle. Just because you've jumped on a single reply to a comment about visible genitalia doesn't encourage me to explain it yet again. The IOC did not remove a requirement to allow this one competitor. Chromosome testing has not been used for over a quarter of a century, due to its inaccuracy, invasiveness, and potential for discrimination and harm. It was also proven to be flawed and resulted in negative consequences for many female athletes 💜 | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜 Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck " I think most people are actually saying they’d like to see a conclusive result from a non-shady organisation. | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜Why are you obsessed by genitalia? It's not relevant here. Nobody from anybody is asking to see them, that would be very inappropriate. It's purely a question of chromosomes. The IOC by removing this requirement did nobody any favours. It means that anyone could say that they had a passport which stipulated a certain sex, this could be different from sex at birth. That's why Trans people were permitted to compete on the Olympics. It doesn't make it right, it just means a decision was made along the lines of 'feelings' and not science. The issue here is chromosomes and it should be confined to that. You either have the stipulated pair or you don't. When you start talking about genitalia people get so emotional, quoting intersex and DSD to suit whatever argument that currently agree with. It's emotive and can be used for and against in this case. What can't is Chromosomes. Nobody needs to look at your bits, it's a simple process to obtain a sample and is scientific, with a definitive answer. Why don't you like this? You will undoubtedly come back with an emotive point but facts always beat feelings when trying to come to a definitive answer. Mrs x The only image that has been provided as "proof" is clearly altered with English text typed over whatever was there, and a clear statement that this is the translation. It is making no claim to be the original unaltered image. I'm not obsessed by genitalia. The comment was that other boxers have said they've seen it, which I don't believe has any foundation. So I was asking in case there actually was someone who openly claimed to have seen it. I've already talked at length about the chromosome and DSD angle. Just because you've jumped on a single reply to a comment about visible genitalia doesn't encourage me to explain it yet again. The IOC did not remove a requirement to allow this one competitor. Chromosome testing has not been used for over a quarter of a century, due to its inaccuracy, invasiveness, and potential for discrimination and harm. It was also proven to be flawed and resulted in negative consequences for many female athletes 💜" This is only partially correct. Whilst the IOC did remove chromosome testing, the last one being conducted in 1992 at Atlanta, it did allow individual sporting governing bodies to carry out tests they believed were appropriate. In this case Boxing carried on with chromosome testing and it's this that the person in question failed prior to the Okympic games. Now whilst chromosome testing was ceased by the IOC in 1992 it still had a battery of sex tests in place which it could use in instances were there was a suspicion an athlete may not be the same sex they were proclaiming to be. So the issue is why, when these boxers had failed chromosome tests previously and had been banned from competing by their respective sporting bodies, were they not required to undertake the IOCs sex tests? Surely this is an example of when such tests should be conducted but they simply weren't. It seemed at the time that the issues between these individual sporting bodies were more important to the IOC than getting to the truth. They both should have been tested by the IOC but weren't, why? Mrs x | |||
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"They both should have been tested by the IOC but weren't, why?" I couldn't tell you their reasoning. In the circumstances I do agree that testing wouldn't have been inappropriate however disputed the IBA may be. But, they weren't. They were allowed to compete along with every other woman who wasn't tested. And they won their medals. The violent rage about a man beating up women is the problem. The reasoning to not test them may be a part of the whole problem, but solving that trivia isn't going to deal with the actual issue 💜 | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜 Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck I think most people are actually saying they’d like to see a conclusive result from a non-shady organisation." Define “non-shady”. This was the body that the IOC considered authoritative until they tested this bloke and the Russians invaded Ukraine. Neither of those things make one shady. | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜 Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck I think most people are actually saying they’d like to see a conclusive result from a non-shady organisation. Define “non-shady”. This was the body that the IOC considered authoritative until they tested this bloke and the Russians invaded Ukraine. Neither of those things make one shady. " Umar Kremlev is as shady as they come  feel free to read up on him | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜 Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck I think most people are actually saying they’d like to see a conclusive result from a non-shady organisation. Define “non-shady”. This was the body that the IOC considered authoritative until they tested this bloke and the Russians invaded Ukraine. Neither of those things make one shady. Umar Kremlev is as shady as they come feel free to read up on him"So basically any other test by anyone else except for the only one that will ever be done? Convenient that | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜 Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck I think most people are actually saying they’d like to see a conclusive result from a non-shady organisation. Define “non-shady”. This was the body that the IOC considered authoritative until they tested this bloke and the Russians invaded Ukraine. Neither of those things make one shady. Umar Kremlev is as shady as they come feel free to read up on him
So basically any other test by anyone else except for the only one that will ever be done? Convenient that "If they wish to continue boxing, they’ll have to test. What’s the problem? | |||
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"Define “non-shady”. This was the body that the IOC considered authoritative until they tested this bloke and the Russians invaded Ukraine. Neither of those things make one shady. " The IBA was suspended in 2019. The invasion was 2022, Imane wasn't mentioned until 2023. Apparently the suspension was due to concerns over its governance, finances, ethics, refereeing, and judging practices. These concerns included allegations of corruption and match-fixing. The IOC's decision followed a period of scrutiny and investigations and eventually a report that revealed significant issues within the organization, before they were actually stripped of recognition at all in 2023 💜 | |||
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"They both should have been tested by the IOC but weren't, why? I couldn't tell you their reasoning. In the circumstances I do agree that testing wouldn't have been inappropriate however disputed the IBA may be. But, they weren't. They were allowed to compete along with every other woman who wasn't tested. And they won their medals. The violent rage about a man beating up women is the problem. The reasoning to not test them may be a part of the whole problem, but solving that trivia isn't going to deal with the actual issue 💜" What's the actual issue then? Please don't say the 'violent rage about a man beating up a woman'. Firstly I cannot recall any actual violence being used against these athletes and if it turns out that they do fail a subsequent sec test then I can understand people being enraged about a man competing against woman in a combat sport. So please tell me what the actual issue is? Thanks. Mrs x | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜 Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck I think most people are actually saying they’d like to see a conclusive result from a non-shady organisation. Define “non-shady”. This was the body that the IOC considered authoritative until they tested this bloke and the Russians invaded Ukraine. Neither of those things make one shady. Umar Kremlev is as shady as they come feel free to read up on him
So basically any other test by anyone else except for the only one that will ever be done? Convenient that
If they wish to continue boxing, they’ll have to test. What’s the problem?
"It’s been explained so many times, you’re just being obtuse There’s an existing test saying they are male That test was ignored, for whatever reason. Fake, false, unreliable, shady etc etc So there’s now all this doubt and only one bloke can clear up that doubt and he won’t cos he knows the answer. So the credibility of the Olympics is in question cos of one cheating bloke who likes knocking women about. The other bloke has apparently already admitted his test was correct but I’ve only heard that talked about, not seen anything official | |||
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"What's the actual issue then? Please don't say the 'violent rage about a man beating up a woman'. Firstly I cannot recall any actual violence being used against these athletes and if it turns out that they do fail a subsequent sec test then I can understand people being enraged about a man competing against woman in a combat sport. So please tell me what the actual issue is? Thanks. Mrs x" A violent emotion is not the same as physical violence. If they fail a subsequent test the being enraged is understandable rather implies that it isn't now. (Though I did note wandering through the history of Olympic testing that they actively note that they don't intend to exclude intersex women and that no male imposters were ever uncovered via the old methods anyway.) You've been on enough of these threads. You see the active (verbal) aggression towards her 💜 | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜 Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck I think most people are actually saying they’d like to see a conclusive result from a non-shady organisation. Define “non-shady”. This was the body that the IOC considered authoritative until they tested this bloke and the Russians invaded Ukraine. Neither of those things make one shady. Umar Kremlev is as shady as they come feel free to read up on him
So basically any other test by anyone else except for the only one that will ever be done? Convenient that
If they wish to continue boxing, they’ll have to test. What’s the problem?
It’s been explained so many times, you’re just being obtuse
There’s an existing test saying they are male
That test was ignored, for whatever reason. Fake, false, unreliable, shady etc etc
So there’s now all this doubt and only one bloke can clear up that doubt and he won’t cos he knows the answer.
"So you admit that the test may be in question, but you don’t accept that you may be wrong? My stance has remained resolute - that we at present don’t have definitive proof of anything (and you agree with this). Yet you are certain in your stance. It’s quite bizarre. | |||
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"The other bloke has apparently already admitted his test was correct but I’ve only heard that talked about, not seen anything official " Lin Yu Ting was noted as not contending the IBA decision in 2023. She is also still registered as female since birth and considered a woman rather than a bloke 💜 | |||
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"There's he said she said, and then there's an actual person standing up to say that this is what they saw. It would make a difference. Oh somebody said doesn't cut it the same way. The issue really for me is more about that projected nonsense of going into it maliciously and with intent to be a man beating up women. If there is obviously a visible penis then at least there's some intent there for that situation because generally people know what their own genitals look like. If there is a person who has openly said they've seen her dick, please point me that way 💜 Point you where? You’ve been pointed to a test done by a doctor and you don’t believe it. If someone showed you a pic you’d say it was photoshopped. You don’t want to believe for the reasons I just said. You and a couple of others have hung your hat on this because of your ideology and I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. Because if not you’ve all but supported organised woman beating as an Olympic sport. And have had zero reservations about doing so. Good luck I think most people are actually saying they’d like to see a conclusive result from a non-shady organisation. Define “non-shady”. This was the body that the IOC considered authoritative until they tested this bloke and the Russians invaded Ukraine. Neither of those things make one shady. Umar Kremlev is as shady as they come feel free to read up on him
So basically any other test by anyone else except for the only one that will ever be done? Convenient that
If they wish to continue boxing, they’ll have to test. What’s the problem?
It’s been explained so many times, you’re just being obtuse
There’s an existing test saying they are male
That test was ignored, for whatever reason. Fake, false, unreliable, shady etc etc
So there’s now all this doubt and only one bloke can clear up that doubt and he won’t cos he knows the answer.
So you admit that the test may be in question, but you don’t accept that you may be wrong?
My stance has remained resolute - that we at present don’t have definitive proof of anything (and you agree with this). Yet you are certain in your stance.
It’s quite bizarre. "No, I admit nothing of the sort. was just stating that some people who support men beating women up but don’t want to say so publicly, are calling the test “dodgy” because it fits their ideology. Men are the only real woman after all 🤣 I’ve have no reason to doubt the validity of the existing test. And the actions of the boxer in question are the clearest signal that he knows the test, regardless of who did it, is correct. My doc has made mistakes but he’s still a GP. | |||
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"The other bloke has apparently already admitted his test was correct but I’ve only heard that talked about, not seen anything official Lin Yu Ting was noted as not contending the IBA decision in 2023. She is also still registered as female since birth and considered a woman rather than a bloke 💜" I rest my case. | |||
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"The other bloke has apparently already admitted his test was correct but I’ve only heard that talked about, not seen anything official Lin Yu Ting was noted as not contending the IBA decision in 2023. She is also still registered as female since birth and considered a woman rather than a bloke 💜 I rest my case. " It's the same case my ex has when he shouts about me cheating on him (I didn't). Because walking away is a sure admission of guilt, and not just recognising the accusation as evidence that you're in a situation where you're not wanted, and deciding it's not worth the hassle. The difference between Lin Yu Ting and Imane Khelif is only one of them called it out as bullshit. She'll occasionally get tagged on when people rant about Imane, but the amount of vitriol going her way is massively reduced. Keeping your head down and walking away is often a better way to keep yourself safe 💜 | |||
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"The other bloke has apparently already admitted his test was correct but I’ve only heard that talked about, not seen anything official Lin Yu Ting was noted as not contending the IBA decision in 2023. She is also still registered as female since birth and considered a woman rather than a bloke 💜 I rest my case. It's the same case my ex has when he shouts about me cheating on him (I didn't). Because walking away is a sure admission of guilt, and not just recognising the accusation as evidence that you're in a situation where you're not wanted, and deciding it's not worth the hassle. The difference between Lin Yu Ting and Imane Khelif is only one of them called it out as bullshit. She'll occasionally get tagged on when people rant about Imane, but the amount of vitriol going her way is massively reduced. Keeping your head down and walking away is often a better way to keep yourself safe 💜" But she hasn't fought since. She's losing potential revenue and all because she won't allow someone to swab inside her cheek for a sample of her DNA. That doesn't make sense. You work all your life for something to just give it up because some people are mean to you or you put them in their place by allowing a trst to be performed that only takes seconds for you and this clears your name once and for all. For bucks sake the person is a supposedly a fighter, but could lose all her dreams because others are being mean to them. That's what doesn't add up to the majority of those looking at this case with any interest. Mrs x | |||
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"The other bloke has apparently already admitted his test was correct but I’ve only heard that talked about, not seen anything official Lin Yu Ting was noted as not contending the IBA decision in 2023. She is also still registered as female since birth and considered a woman rather than a bloke 💜 I rest my case. It's the same case my ex has when he shouts about me cheating on him (I didn't). Because walking away is a sure admission of guilt, and not just recognising the accusation as evidence that you're in a situation where you're not wanted, and deciding it's not worth the hassle. The difference between Lin Yu Ting and Imane Khelif is only one of them called it out as bullshit. She'll occasionally get tagged on when people rant about Imane, but the amount of vitriol going her way is massively reduced. Keeping your head down and walking away is often a better way to keep yourself safe 💜 But she hasn't fought since. She's losing potential revenue and all because she won't allow someone to swab inside her cheek for a sample of her DNA. That doesn't make sense. You work all your life for something to just give it up because some people are mean to you or you put them in their place by allowing a trst to be performed that only takes seconds for you and this clears your name once and for all. For bucks sake the person is a supposedly a fighter, but could lose all her dreams because others are being mean to them. That's what doesn't add up to the majority of those looking at this case with any interest. Mrs x" Lin Yu Ting, which is who was referenced there, did not contend the IBA claim in 2023. She competed and won a medal in the 2024 Olympics, after keeping her head down and her mouth shut. What doesn't add up? 💜 | |||
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"The other bloke has apparently already admitted his test was correct but I’ve only heard that talked about, not seen anything official Lin Yu Ting was noted as not contending the IBA decision in 2023. She is also still registered as female since birth and considered a woman rather than a bloke 💜 I rest my case. It's the same case my ex has when he shouts about me cheating on him (I didn't). Because walking away is a sure admission of guilt, and not just recognising the accusation as evidence that you're in a situation where you're not wanted, and deciding it's not worth the hassle. The difference between Lin Yu Ting and Imane Khelif is only one of them called it out as bullshit. She'll occasionally get tagged on when people rant about Imane, but the amount of vitriol going her way is massively reduced. Keeping your head down and walking away is often a better way to keep yourself safe 💜 But she hasn't fought since. She's losing potential revenue and all because she won't allow someone to swab inside her cheek for a sample of her DNA. That doesn't make sense. You work all your life for something to just give it up because some people are mean to you or you put them in their place by allowing a trst to be performed that only takes seconds for you and this clears your name once and for all. For bucks sake the person is a supposedly a fighter, but could lose all her dreams because others are being mean to them. That's what doesn't add up to the majority of those looking at this case with any interest. Mrs x Lin Yu Ting, which is who was referenced there, did not contend the IBA claim in 2023. She competed and won a medal in the 2024 Olympics, after keeping her head down and her mouth shut. What doesn't add up? 💜" It was at the Olympics when all the controversy blew up. These boxers were banned by their governing body but the IOC chose not to utilise the next tests available to them, that they could use in individual cases were suspicion arose regarding sex of athletes. Their wasn't suspicion there was actually allegations. The IOC could have nipped this in the bud but they didn't. That's the first 'mistake', there was a genuine reason to conduct a battery of sex tests but the IOC refused. The 'second' mistake is that the individuals themselves didnt take this approach. They simply had to allow saliva to be collected and they could have proven this issue one way or another. They chose not to and since 'winning' at the Olympics they haven't fought since. This damages their dreams, legacy but most importantly their earnings. So why if they are the sex they say they are havent they undertook a test to prove it. It's like someone being arrested for murder, having a perfect alibi but refusing to use it. That's what doesn't add up. I know you can see this point but im sure you will counter it with some emotional point. Mrs x | |||
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"Lin Yu Ting, which is who was referenced there, did not contend the IBA claim in 2023. She competed and won a medal in the 2024 Olympics, after keeping her head down and her mouth shut. What doesn't add up? 💜 It was at the Olympics when all the controversy blew up. These boxers were banned by their governing body but the IOC chose not to utilise the next tests available to them, that they could use in individual cases were suspicion arose regarding sex of athletes. Their wasn't suspicion there was actually allegations. The IOC could have nipped this in the bud but they didn't. That's the first 'mistake', there was a genuine reason to conduct a battery of sex tests but the IOC refused. The 'second' mistake is that the individuals themselves didnt take this approach. They simply had to allow saliva to be collected and they could have proven this issue one way or another. They chose not to and since 'winning' at the Olympics they haven't fought since. This damages their dreams, legacy but most importantly their earnings. So why if they are the sex they say they are havent they undertook a test to prove it. It's like someone being arrested for murder, having a perfect alibi but refusing to use it. That's what doesn't add up. I know you can see this point but im sure you will counter it with some emotional point. Mrs x" We've already covered that the choice not to test athletes where there was such speculation was an odd one. Lin was going to compete in Britain after the Olympics. World Boxing did not agree to having the tests done over here. "World Boxing's medical committee has yet to establish robust confidentiality procedures to safeguard the medical information submitted by Taiwan regarding Lin Yu-ting." Lin, 28, had offered to undergo a "comprehensive medical examination locally" in Britain but World Boxing did not agree, the statement said. To avoid further "harm" to Lin, her coach and Taiwanese sports officials "decided to withdraw from this event proactively"." Lin also still has 2 gold medals from previous IBA championships, with a note for disqualification against 2023. Weirdly, Khelif's record does not reference at all, never mind state disqualified from, the same 2023 one, yet does keep her silver the previous year 💜 | |||
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"Lin Yu Ting, which is who was referenced there, did not contend the IBA claim in 2023. She competed and won a medal in the 2024 Olympics, after keeping her head down and her mouth shut. What doesn't add up? 💜 It was at the Olympics when all the controversy blew up. These boxers were banned by their governing body but the IOC chose not to utilise the next tests available to them, that they could use in individual cases were suspicion arose regarding sex of athletes. Their wasn't suspicion there was actually allegations. The IOC could have nipped this in the bud but they didn't. That's the first 'mistake', there was a genuine reason to conduct a battery of sex tests but the IOC refused. The 'second' mistake is that the individuals themselves didnt take this approach. They simply had to allow saliva to be collected and they could have proven this issue one way or another. They chose not to and since 'winning' at the Olympics they haven't fought since. This damages their dreams, legacy but most importantly their earnings. So why if they are the sex they say they are havent they undertook a test to prove it. It's like someone being arrested for murder, having a perfect alibi but refusing to use it. That's what doesn't add up. I know you can see this point but im sure you will counter it with some emotional point. Mrs x We've already covered that the choice not to test athletes where there was such speculation was an odd one. Lin was going to compete in Britain after the Olympics. World Boxing did not agree to having the tests done over here. World Boxing's medical committee has yet to establish robust confidentiality procedures to safeguard the medical information submitted by Taiwan regarding Lin Yu-ting." Lin, 28, had offered to undergo a "comprehensive medical examination locally" in Britain but World Boxing did not agree, the statement said. To avoid further "harm" to Lin, her coach and Taiwanese sports officials "decided to withdraw from this event proactively". Lin also still has 2 gold medals from previous IBA championships, with a note for disqualification against 2023. Weirdly, Khelif's record does not reference at all, never mind state disqualified from, the same 2023 one, yet does keep her silver the previous year 💜" I'm not talking about any organisation conducting more tests but im stating I think the vast majority of people find it strange the individuals have done nothing to clear their own names. Most people would take the opportunity to do so and by not doing so it's fairly obvious that they are only adding to further speculation themselves. So why havent they done this. This simple act of ommission is fueling the speculation, causing them to lose out on legacy, career and money. It's this that appears strange to most people. Take a test if you are certain you are innocent. Use the result to get on with your life, it just makes sense, yet they choose not to. That's the real issue, Mrs x | |||
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"I'm not talking about any organisation conducting more tests but im stating I think the vast majority of people find it strange the individuals have done nothing to clear their own names. Most people would take the opportunity to do so and by not doing so it's fairly obvious that they are only adding to further speculation themselves. So why havent they done this. This simple act of ommission is fueling the speculation, causing them to lose out on legacy, career and money. It's this that appears strange to most people. Take a test if you are certain you are innocent. Use the result to get on with your life, it just makes sense, yet they choose not to. That's the real issue, Mrs x" Nobody should ever have to publicly share sensitive medical data just to avoid being harassed. If they are jumping through the hoops in the background it's not necessary for it to be in the public domain. They were female by the olympic standards. When the IBA said they weren't by their standards they were excluded from competing, yet they were female enough the previous years for the IBA. If they don't meet the criteria going forward, they won't be competing. Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards 💜 | |||
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""They were female by the olympic standards." And this one sentence just about sums up the sheer madness surrounding this issue in the 21st century. Not female by science, biology or by logic, but by the determination of a sport's body. I really do weep for women. The genuine kind, that is." You don't know the science, biology or logic behind the decisions made 💜 | |||
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""They were female by the olympic standards." And this one sentence just about sums up the sheer madness surrounding this issue in the 21st century. Not female by science, biology or by logic, but by the determination of a sport's body. I really do weep for women. The genuine kind, that is. You don't know the science, biology or logic behind the decisions made 💜" Sigh. Every rational human being has always known. | |||
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"Lin Yu Ting, which is who was referenced there, did not contend the IBA claim in 2023. She competed and won a medal in the 2024 Olympics, after keeping her head down and her mouth shut. What doesn't add up? 💜 It was at the Olympics when all the controversy blew up. These boxers were banned by their governing body but the IOC chose not to utilise the next tests available to them, that they could use in individual cases were suspicion arose regarding sex of athletes. Their wasn't suspicion there was actually allegations. The IOC could have nipped this in the bud but they didn't. That's the first 'mistake', there was a genuine reason to conduct a battery of sex tests but the IOC refused. The 'second' mistake is that the individuals themselves didnt take this approach. They simply had to allow saliva to be collected and they could have proven this issue one way or another. They chose not to and since 'winning' at the Olympics they haven't fought since. This damages their dreams, legacy but most importantly their earnings. So why if they are the sex they say they are havent they undertook a test to prove it. It's like someone being arrested for murder, having a perfect alibi but refusing to use it. That's what doesn't add up. I know you can see this point but im sure you will counter it with some emotional point. Mrs x We've already covered that the choice not to test athletes where there was such speculation was an odd one. Lin was going to compete in Britain after the Olympics. World Boxing did not agree to having the tests done over here. World Boxing's medical committee has yet to establish robust confidentiality procedures to safeguard the medical information submitted by Taiwan regarding Lin Yu-ting." Lin, 28, had offered to undergo a "comprehensive medical examination locally" in Britain but World Boxing did not agree, the statement said. To avoid further "harm" to Lin, her coach and Taiwanese sports officials "decided to withdraw from this event proactively". Lin also still has 2 gold medals from previous IBA championships, with a note for disqualification against 2023. Weirdly, Khelif's record does not reference at all, never mind state disqualified from, the same 2023 one, yet does keep her silver the previous year 💜I'm not talking about any organisation conducting more tests but im stating I think the vast majority of people find it strange the individuals have done nothing to clear their own names. Most people would take the opportunity to do so and by not doing so it's fairly obvious that they are only adding to further speculation themselves. So why havent they done this. This simple act of ommission is fueling the speculation, causing them to lose out on legacy, career and money. It's this that appears strange to most people. Take a test if you are certain you are innocent. Use the result to get on with your life, it just makes sense, yet they choose not to. That's the real issue, Mrs x" Agreed Mrs | |||
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""They were female by the olympic standards." And this one sentence just about sums up the sheer madness surrounding this issue in the 21st century. Not female by science, biology or by logic, but by the determination of a sport's body. I really do weep for women. The genuine kind, that is. You don't know the science, biology or logic behind the decisions made 💜 Sigh. Every rational human being has always known." Every rational human has always known the contents of every other humans underpants? | |||
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"Khelif and Lin are widely portrayed as victims but if they or their teams were aware that they had XY chromosones and still put themselves forward to compete in female boxing, then how is that any different from cheating with performance enhancing drugs ? " Short answer - they were naturally born with XY chromosomes but with an otherwise female body hence they have always lived and been accept as female. It's not their fault that the way they were born had given them a massive (possibly unfair) advantage over the competition in their chosen sport. Taking performance enhancers is clearly different as it's an unnatural way to gain an unfair advantage and is plainly cheating. Now, I have all sympathy for Imane and Lin, they clearly love their sport and train to compete. I feel that their eligibility to do so needs to be judged by competent science and fairness and safety in what is a dangerous sport. And given what we know about their backgrounds calling someone a biological male when they have lived their whole life as female probably isn't very helpful or nice to endure. | |||
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"I'm not talking about any organisation conducting more tests but im stating I think the vast majority of people find it strange the individuals have done nothing to clear their own names. Most people would take the opportunity to do so and by not doing so it's fairly obvious that they are only adding to further speculation themselves. So why havent they done this. This simple act of ommission is fueling the speculation, causing them to lose out on legacy, career and money. It's this that appears strange to most people. Take a test if you are certain you are innocent. Use the result to get on with your life, it just makes sense, yet they choose not to. That's the real issue, Mrs x Nobody should ever have to publicly share sensitive medical data just to avoid being harassed. If they are jumping through the hoops in the background it's not necessary for it to be in the public domain. They were female by the olympic standards. When the IBA said they weren't by their standards they were excluded from competing, yet they were female enough the previous years for the IBA. If they don't meet the criteria going forward, they won't be competing. Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards 💜" But that's just not true is it. The IOC will conduct sex tests, even now, were there's sufficient suspicion of an irregularity. In this case there wasn't suspicion there were actual allegations but the IOC didnt follow up their own procedures, something even you said they should have done because it would have clarified matters immediately. As for not having to share sensitive medical data, isn't that what they are all going to have to do with the new criteria that's been introduced. You don't seem to have a problem with this going forward, you even say if they don't pass it then they simply will not be allowed to compete. Also im not sure how much you know about boxing but sensitive medical data has always been shared. Medicals are extensive and boxers are banned for tons of reasons, all of which are made public, things like detached retinas, cerebral problems, irregular heart rhythms have all been reported before and boxers at even the highest levels have been banned. Even boxers who cheat have there medical records examined publicly. This is the same procedure used to establish DNA and chromosomes. So their should be no exception made for them. As for your assertion that the boxers in question qualified because they met the criteria laid out by the IOC, that's absolutely spot on. But the criteria was that sex was determined by that which was reported on their passport. By that logic Floyd Mayweather could have his passport changed at any country that allows this, for only a few bucks in certain countries, and he could have won a gold in his, sorry her, weight class at the last Olympics. Because, even though there may have been a suspicion he was a bloke, the IOC would not have followed this up with the sex tests their own protocols call for. So you'd be ok with that? And finally why say, in your last paragraph, 'Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards', when I've never said the boxer in question wasn't a woman. I certainly havent said they are a man. I'm just putting across reasons why it looks like there's no smoke without fire. The IOC go on about the eligibility standards but forget to mention what they should do in cases like this. They then fail to do what they have a duty to do. The athletes themselves choose to do nothing to clear their name. Something the vast majority of people would do immediately if they could. You point out things like medical reports should be private but bemoan the quality of the report you have seen saying it obviously a fake. You say it's a fake although this story has been reported by major international newspaper, The Telegraph being one. These papers fact check everything the print and im not saying they don't get things wrong but they do this because of tge punitive damages awarded to victims of defamation. A newspaper is just as guilty of defamation by printing a story as the person who tells the story originally. So for The Telegraph to report on this saying that a report has been leaked then they will undoubtedly have seen something they believe they could use in court to prove their view. You still call it a fake. So at this moment im not offering an opinion on whether the boxers are indeed men or not. I am saying that for most people the actions of all involved don't seem to point to innocence here for these boxers. But like I say facts beat feelings and I may be proved totally wrong, Mrs x | |||
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""They were female by the olympic standards." And this one sentence just about sums up the sheer madness surrounding this issue in the 21st century. Not female by science, biology or by logic, but by the determination of a sport's body. I really do weep for women. The genuine kind, that is. You don't know the science, biology or logic behind the decisions made 💜" Neither do you because the IOC didnt make any decision, it could and should have done but chose not to. The only reason I can think of is the uproar of such a stupid decision to determine gender by a passport would have been highly embarrassing for the IOC if he decision went a certain way. So to ensure it didnt go that way they refused to carry out their own prescribed sex tests. Mrs x | |||
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"I'm not talking about any organisation conducting more tests but im stating I think the vast majority of people find it strange the individuals have done nothing to clear their own names. Most people would take the opportunity to do so and by not doing so it's fairly obvious that they are only adding to further speculation themselves. So why havent they done this. This simple act of ommission is fueling the speculation, causing them to lose out on legacy, career and money. It's this that appears strange to most people. Take a test if you are certain you are innocent. Use the result to get on with your life, it just makes sense, yet they choose not to. That's the real issue, Mrs x Nobody should ever have to publicly share sensitive medical data just to avoid being harassed. If they are jumping through the hoops in the background it's not necessary for it to be in the public domain. They were female by the olympic standards. When the IBA said they weren't by their standards they were excluded from competing, yet they were female enough the previous years for the IBA. If they don't meet the criteria going forward, they won't be competing. Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards 💜 But that's just not true is it. The IOC will conduct sex tests, even now, were there's sufficient suspicion of an irregularity. In this case there wasn't suspicion there were actual allegations but the IOC didnt follow up their own procedures, something even you said they should have done because it would have clarified matters immediately. As for not having to share sensitive medical data, isn't that what they are all going to have to do with the new criteria that's been introduced. You don't seem to have a problem with this going forward, you even say if they don't pass it then they simply will not be allowed to compete. Also im not sure how much you know about boxing but sensitive medical data has always been shared. Medicals are extensive and boxers are banned for tons of reasons, all of which are made public, things like detached retinas, cerebral problems, irregular heart rhythms have all been reported before and boxers at even the highest levels have been banned. Even boxers who cheat have there medical records examined publicly. This is the same procedure used to establish DNA and chromosomes. So their should be no exception made for them. As for your assertion that the boxers in question qualified because they met the criteria laid out by the IOC, that's absolutely spot on. But the criteria was that sex was determined by that which was reported on their passport. By that logic Floyd Mayweather could have his passport changed at any country that allows this, for only a few bucks in certain countries, and he could have won a gold in his, sorry her, weight class at the last Olympics. Because, even though there may have been a suspicion he was a bloke, the IOC would not have followed this up with the sex tests their own protocols call for. So you'd be ok with that? And finally why say, in your last paragraph, 'Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards', when I've never said the boxer in question wasn't a woman. I certainly havent said they are a man. I'm just putting across reasons why it looks like there's no smoke without fire. The IOC go on about the eligibility standards but forget to mention what they should do in cases like this. They then fail to do what they have a duty to do. The athletes themselves choose to do nothing to clear their name. Something the vast majority of people would do immediately if they could. You point out things like medical reports should be private but bemoan the quality of the report you have seen saying it obviously a fake. You say it's a fake although this story has been reported by major international newspaper, The Telegraph being one. These papers fact check everything the print and im not saying they don't get things wrong but they do this because of tge punitive damages awarded to victims of defamation. A newspaper is just as guilty of defamation by printing a story as the person who tells the story originally. So for The Telegraph to report on this saying that a report has been leaked then they will undoubtedly have seen something they believe they could use in court to prove their view. You still call it a fake. So at this moment im not offering an opinion on whether the boxers are indeed men or not. I am saying that for most people the actions of all involved don't seem to point to innocence here for these boxers. But like I say facts beat feelings and I may be proved totally wrong, Mrs x" By competing all we know is they have passed the relevant eligibility criteria. If someone does not compete in the women's category at the Olympics pics (so most people in the world) they are not automatically disclosing that they are biologically male to the world. The IOC tests for disproportionate advantage more than sex looking at their inclusion policy from 2021. And I'm not sure there is a female weight category Mayweather would fit into even if he managed to suppress the androgens for two years. As to the Telegraph, if you read the article not once do they say anything more than this is what that journalist said or this is what he presented. They're very careful to at no point be doing anything other than reporting and speculating on what someone else has claimed, rather than claim anything themselves 💜 | |||
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"I'm not talking about any organisation conducting more tests but im stating I think the vast majority of people find it strange the individuals have done nothing to clear their own names. Most people would take the opportunity to do so and by not doing so it's fairly obvious that they are only adding to further speculation themselves. So why havent they done this. This simple act of ommission is fueling the speculation, causing them to lose out on legacy, career and money. It's this that appears strange to most people. Take a test if you are certain you are innocent. Use the result to get on with your life, it just makes sense, yet they choose not to. That's the real issue, Mrs x Nobody should ever have to publicly share sensitive medical data just to avoid being harassed. If they are jumping through the hoops in the background it's not necessary for it to be in the public domain. They were female by the olympic standards. When the IBA said they weren't by their standards they were excluded from competing, yet they were female enough the previous years for the IBA. If they don't meet the criteria going forward, they won't be competing. Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards 💜 But that's just not true is it. The IOC will conduct sex tests, even now, were there's sufficient suspicion of an irregularity. In this case there wasn't suspicion there were actual allegations but the IOC didnt follow up their own procedures, something even you said they should have done because it would have clarified matters immediately. As for not having to share sensitive medical data, isn't that what they are all going to have to do with the new criteria that's been introduced. You don't seem to have a problem with this going forward, you even say if they don't pass it then they simply will not be allowed to compete. Also im not sure how much you know about boxing but sensitive medical data has always been shared. Medicals are extensive and boxers are banned for tons of reasons, all of which are made public, things like detached retinas, cerebral problems, irregular heart rhythms have all been reported before and boxers at even the highest levels have been banned. Even boxers who cheat have there medical records examined publicly. This is the same procedure used to establish DNA and chromosomes. So their should be no exception made for them. As for your assertion that the boxers in question qualified because they met the criteria laid out by the IOC, that's absolutely spot on. But the criteria was that sex was determined by that which was reported on their passport. By that logic Floyd Mayweather could have his passport changed at any country that allows this, for only a few bucks in certain countries, and he could have won a gold in his, sorry her, weight class at the last Olympics. Because, even though there may have been a suspicion he was a bloke, the IOC would not have followed this up with the sex tests their own protocols call for. So you'd be ok with that? And finally why say, in your last paragraph, 'Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards', when I've never said the boxer in question wasn't a woman. I certainly havent said they are a man. I'm just putting across reasons why it looks like there's no smoke without fire. The IOC go on about the eligibility standards but forget to mention what they should do in cases like this. They then fail to do what they have a duty to do. The athletes themselves choose to do nothing to clear their name. Something the vast majority of people would do immediately if they could. You point out things like medical reports should be private but bemoan the quality of the report you have seen saying it obviously a fake. You say it's a fake although this story has been reported by major international newspaper, The Telegraph being one. These papers fact check everything the print and im not saying they don't get things wrong but they do this because of tge punitive damages awarded to victims of defamation. A newspaper is just as guilty of defamation by printing a story as the person who tells the story originally. So for The Telegraph to report on this saying that a report has been leaked then they will undoubtedly have seen something they believe they could use in court to prove their view. You still call it a fake. So at this moment im not offering an opinion on whether the boxers are indeed men or not. I am saying that for most people the actions of all involved don't seem to point to innocence here for these boxers. But like I say facts beat feelings and I may be proved totally wrong, Mrs x By competing all we know is they have passed the relevant eligibility criteria. If someone does not compete in the women's category at the Olympics pics (so most people in the world) they are not automatically disclosing that they are biologically male to the world. The IOC tests for disproportionate advantage more than sex looking at their inclusion policy from 2021. And I'm not sure there is a female weight category Mayweather would fit into even if he managed to suppress the androgens for two years. As to the Telegraph, if you read the article not once do they say anything more than this is what that journalist said or this is what he presented. They're very careful to at no point be doing anything other than reporting and speculating on what someone else has claimed, rather than claim anything themselves 💜" You are obviously not reading the same article from The Telegraph... This is a direct quote from their journalist... "Those who cheered this on in Paris, who painted anybody doubting Khelif’s claims to be a woman as a bigot, should take some time to reflect. And that includes many journalists. On Sky Sports News on Friday, an Olympics reporter, reacting to news that World Boxing would compel Khelif to undergo further sex testing to compete in the female category again, said flatly: “There were no tests. There were no test results.” And yet there were. We knew of their existence in Paris nine months ago, and now we have seen them with our own eyes." This from The Telegraph last week. The bit about seeing them with our own eyes seems to indicate it's factual and not speculation like you suggest. Spin this away if you can but your just doubling down on silliness if you do but hey give it a go, Mrs x | |||
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"I'm not talking about any organisation conducting more tests but im stating I think the vast majority of people find it strange the individuals have done nothing to clear their own names. Most people would take the opportunity to do so and by not doing so it's fairly obvious that they are only adding to further speculation themselves. So why havent they done this. This simple act of ommission is fueling the speculation, causing them to lose out on legacy, career and money. It's this that appears strange to most people. Take a test if you are certain you are innocent. Use the result to get on with your life, it just makes sense, yet they choose not to. That's the real issue, Mrs x Nobody should ever have to publicly share sensitive medical data just to avoid being harassed. If they are jumping through the hoops in the background it's not necessary for it to be in the public domain. They were female by the olympic standards. When the IBA said they weren't by their standards they were excluded from competing, yet they were female enough the previous years for the IBA. If they don't meet the criteria going forward, they won't be competing. Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards 💜 But that's just not true is it. The IOC will conduct sex tests, even now, were there's sufficient suspicion of an irregularity. In this case there wasn't suspicion there were actual allegations but the IOC didnt follow up their own procedures, something even you said they should have done because it would have clarified matters immediately. As for not having to share sensitive medical data, isn't that what they are all going to have to do with the new criteria that's been introduced. You don't seem to have a problem with this going forward, you even say if they don't pass it then they simply will not be allowed to compete. Also im not sure how much you know about boxing but sensitive medical data has always been shared. Medicals are extensive and boxers are banned for tons of reasons, all of which are made public, things like detached retinas, cerebral problems, irregular heart rhythms have all been reported before and boxers at even the highest levels have been banned. Even boxers who cheat have there medical records examined publicly. This is the same procedure used to establish DNA and chromosomes. So their should be no exception made for them. As for your assertion that the boxers in question qualified because they met the criteria laid out by the IOC, that's absolutely spot on. But the criteria was that sex was determined by that which was reported on their passport. By that logic Floyd Mayweather could have his passport changed at any country that allows this, for only a few bucks in certain countries, and he could have won a gold in his, sorry her, weight class at the last Olympics. Because, even though there may have been a suspicion he was a bloke, the IOC would not have followed this up with the sex tests their own protocols call for. So you'd be ok with that? And finally why say, in your last paragraph, 'Whether or not they're women enough for you is irrelevant to whether they were eligible by competition standards', when I've never said the boxer in question wasn't a woman. I certainly havent said they are a man. I'm just putting across reasons why it looks like there's no smoke without fire. The IOC go on about the eligibility standards but forget to mention what they should do in cases like this. They then fail to do what they have a duty to do. The athletes themselves choose to do nothing to clear their name. Something the vast majority of people would do immediately if they could. You point out things like medical reports should be private but bemoan the quality of the report you have seen saying it obviously a fake. You say it's a fake although this story has been reported by major international newspaper, The Telegraph being one. These papers fact check everything the print and im not saying they don't get things wrong but they do this because of tge punitive damages awarded to victims of defamation. A newspaper is just as guilty of defamation by printing a story as the person who tells the story originally. So for The Telegraph to report on this saying that a report has been leaked then they will undoubtedly have seen something they believe they could use in court to prove their view. You still call it a fake. So at this moment im not offering an opinion on whether the boxers are indeed men or not. I am saying that for most people the actions of all involved don't seem to point to innocence here for these boxers. But like I say facts beat feelings and I may be proved totally wrong, Mrs x By competing all we know is they have passed the relevant eligibility criteria. If someone does not compete in the women's category at the Olympics pics (so most people in the world) they are not automatically disclosing that they are biologically male to the world. The IOC tests for disproportionate advantage more than sex looking at their inclusion policy from 2021. And I'm not sure there is a female weight category Mayweather would fit into even if he managed to suppress the androgens for two years. As to the Telegraph, if you read the article not once do they say anything more than this is what that journalist said or this is what he presented. They're very careful to at no point be doing anything other than reporting and speculating on what someone else has claimed, rather than claim anything themselves 💜You are obviously not reading the same article from The Telegraph... This is a direct quote from their journalist... "Those who cheered this on in Paris, who painted anybody doubting Khelif’s claims to be a woman as a bigot, should take some time to reflect. And that includes many journalists. On Sky Sports News on Friday, an Olympics reporter, reacting to news that World Boxing would compel Khelif to undergo further sex testing to compete in the female category again, said flatly: “There were no tests. There were no test results.” And yet there were. We knew of their existence in Paris nine months ago, and now we have seen them with our own eyes." This from The Telegraph last week. The bit about seeing them with our own eyes seems to indicate it's factual and not speculation like you suggest. Spin this away if you can but your just doubling down on silliness if you do but hey give it a go, Mrs x" A little more from the article in The Telegraph... " I can sleep well tonight,” said Nicola Adams, the first British woman to win an Olympic boxing title, a few hours after Imane Khelif’s test results were leaked into the public domain. She deserved to feel at peace. After all, she had been one of the highest-profile critics of the Algerian’s involvement at the Paris Olympics last summer, writing: “People not born as biological women should not be able to compete in women’s sport.” For this she was pelted like some medieval miscreant in the stocks, accused by many of her former supporters of ignorance and misinformation. Except now, with the release of chromosome analysis from an Indian laboratory revealing that Khelif has “male karyotype”, it turns out Adams was right all along. The Khelif scandal should be ranked among the worst in Olympic history, a saga where the sport’s most powerful administrators became so seduced by gender ideology, so in thrall to the lie that womanhood was reducible to some frivolous passport detail, that they were prepared to put the very lives of female boxers in peril. A woman could, as a direct consequence of a profoundly flawed official policy, have died in that Paris ring. That is the stark truth. The International Olympic Committee knew about Khelif. It had been told in 2023 about the test results in New Delhi indicating that Khelif was biologically male, with spokesman Mark Adams publicly admitting as much. But it did nothing, disdaining the tests – with no evidence – as “ad hoc” and “not legitimate”. Its spin was that it was all some Russian stitch-up. This version of events, after all, suited president Thomas Bach’s personal squabbles with Umar Kremlev, Russian chief of the International Boxing Association. And it was swallowed by far too many credulous observers in Paris. When the IBA called a press conference, in the wake of Khelif’s 46-second battering of Angela Carini, it was blocked by legal threats from revealing the boxer’s test findings as it intended. As such, the occasion dissolved into a slanging match: at one point, apropos of nothing, a reporter demanded to know the salary of Chris Roberts, the IBA chief executive It felt, then as now, like a huge exercise in misdirection. Yes, the IBA had questions to answer over its ethics and finances. But the core element of its case – that women’s sport should only be for those with XX chromosomes, that male advantage was immutable – was sound. And now we see its argument that it disqualified Khelif from the 2023 World Championships for being XY – a verdict, crucially, against which the athlete did not appeal – substantiated in writing, with a report carrying the letterhead of Dr Lal Path Labs in New Delhi summarising the genetic testing in two telling words: “abnormal” and “male”." His summary is quite damning really, 'abnormal' and 'male', on a report he has seen doesn't look good for the boxer in question. But sure you'll day different. Mrs x | |||
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