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"Customers will pay £123,000,000 to the regulator. Plus all the legal costs incurred by Thames water. CEO base salary £850k plus other benefits, overall package reported at £2.25m" Thank you for the figures. Exactly my point And this is the issue with a public service monopoly. It’s not like we can shop around. | |||
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" As for the railways, that’s a different beast. Union control has blocked much of the modernisation needed for service improvements. " Any specific examples? | |||
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" As for the railways, that’s a different beast. Union control has blocked much of the modernisation needed for service improvements. Any specific examples?" Driver only operation, drag that out. Wont agree to a seven day Service. Prevented underused ticket office closures, to protect jobs. Unions require multiple staff for tasks that could be performed by fewer people. Extended “walking time allowances” for staff to reach break areas.... New technologies have issues at every step due to changes in working practices. I do like this one that a friend told me about. He goes on strike, doesn't work and then turns up for work on a Sunday and gets more money than he would have if hadn't been on strike. You are in that world, and will more than likely put me right  | |||
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" Driver only operation, drag that out." DOO already exists and is very commonplace across the country. "Wont agree to a seven day Service." Seven day railway is in negotiation at this very moment, is it not? "Prevented underused ticket office closures, to protect jobs." Ticket offices have been closing gradually for decades. This will continue, sadly - since passengers prefer staffed ticket offices. "Unions require multiple staff for tasks that could be performed by fewer people." Any specific examples? "Extended “walking time allowances” for staff to reach break areas...." Extended? How? It’s correct that staff have walking time allocated into their diagram in an industry where minimum break times are legally enforced. Those walking times are created by undertaking and timing the walks with management present. "New technologies have issues at every step due to changes in working practices. " Do they? Any specific examples? "I do like this one that a friend told me about. He goes on strike, doesn't work and then turns up for work on a Sunday and gets more money than he would have if hadn't been on strike. " Hang on, you just said a seven day railway is being held up. Now you’re saying drivers work Sundays? Is it not right that staff receive overtime for shifts beyond their roster? "You are in that world, and will more than likely put me right "Well, I won’t spout exaggerations and lies, if that’s what you mean  | |||
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"1.4 million homes have been left unbuilt by developers since 2007. (IPPR 14.2.25) Mrs Rayner is proposing to nationalise all these sites if developers don’t build them out. Thats going to be a significant cost. (@100k a plot iro £140bn) Will the money be coming from the pension funds. " We desperately need housing. | |||
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"1.4 million homes have been left unbuilt by developers since 2007. (IPPR 14.2.25) Mrs Rayner is proposing to nationalise all these sites if developers don’t build them out. Thats going to be a significant cost. (@100k a plot iro £140bn) Will the money be coming from the pension funds. " It might be a cheaper and better option than the cost to local councils, slum landlords are raking it in and as we've sadly seen some accommodation is not fit for purpose or safe.. | |||
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"1.4 million homes have been left unbuilt by developers since 2007. (IPPR 14.2.25) Mrs Rayner is proposing to nationalise all these sites if developers don’t build them out. Thats going to be a significant cost. (@100k a plot iro £140bn) Will the money be coming from the pension funds. We desperately need housing." 2.1 million sold on right to buy and not replaced. Correlated to growth in private sector rentals. Reap what we sow I suppose. | |||
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"1.4 million homes have been left unbuilt by developers since 2007. (IPPR 14.2.25) Mrs Rayner is proposing to nationalise all these sites if developers don’t build them out. Thats going to be a significant cost. (@100k a plot iro £140bn) Will the money be coming from the pension funds. It might be a cheaper and better option than the cost to local councils, slum landlords are raking it in and as we've sadly seen some accommodation is not fit for purpose or safe.." Here in Plymouth the council rent homes from the private sector for the homeless, and appointed a HA to administer it, they charge £70-150 a week ‘administration’ charge to the tenants license. Tax payer coughing up for that as well. | |||
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"Hang on, you just said a seven day railway is being held up. Now you’re saying drivers work Sundays? Is it not right that staff receive overtime for shifts beyond their roster? " Historically overtime at time and a half for Saturdays and double time for Sundays was the norm. But this was at a time when most people worked Monday to Friday I’m sure there less demand for rail service at weekends and the fares are very often much cheaper. So paying staff at a higher rate would make the services even less viable. The best option for the operator and customers would be for staff to do either 3 or 4 days, perhaps rotate between the two? But unions would only stand for that if take home pay was the same as working a 5 day week. On the whole that’s my biggest issue with unions, this whole you can’t change things to suit your customers or your business without my consent. I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business | |||
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" I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business " And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business" "And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions" Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs?" They have shut down entire industries | |||
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" I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions " What I find fascinating is that fifty years ago the country was being held to ransom by broadly working class unions. Today the country is being held to ransom by broadly well paid middle class unions: doctors, nurses, train drivers, teachers etc. It’s a useful summary of how the country has changed over that time, and also explains why the Labour Party today has lost touch with its working class roots, and has become the Party of the urban public sector middle class. It’s just followed the union money around. Of course eventually the unions of the seventies had to be confronted, just as the self serving unions of today will have to be. | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? They have shut down entire industries " Which Industries have the unions shut down and how? | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? They have shut down entire industries Which Industries have the unions shut down and how?" I don't think they have shut down an industry but in cases like coal, shipbuilding, and car manufacturing the unions resistance to change and love of strikes accelerated their decline. Unions helped create the conditions for foreign imports and companies to replace domestic production. | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? They have shut down entire industries Which Industries have the unions shut down and how? I don't think they have shut down an industry but in cases like coal, shipbuilding, and car manufacturing the unions resistance to change and love of strikes accelerated their decline. Unions helped create the conditions for foreign imports and companies to replace domestic production." That's ok that you don't know, neither do I.. 
Sorry mate but no one loves going on strike, losing money when they need to feed a family etc..
It's simply not the case to say that and strikes are the last option..
So cheaper foreign coal (and a vindictive PM), better foreign cars and steel plus decades of under investment in better production methods had nowt to do with the decline globally of such industries here..
Did the unions in America also destroy the auto and steel industries too?
Those lefty types?
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? They have shut down entire industries Which Industries have the unions shut down and how? I don't think they have shut down an industry but in cases like coal, shipbuilding, and car manufacturing the unions resistance to change and love of strikes accelerated their decline. Unions helped create the conditions for foreign imports and companies to replace domestic production. That's ok that you don't know, neither do I..
Sorry mate but no one loves going on strike, losing money when they need to feed a family etc..
It's simply not the case to say that and strikes are the last option..
So cheaper foreign coal (and a vindictive PM), better foreign cars and steel plus decades of under investment in better production methods had nowt to do with the decline globally of such industries here..
Did the unions in America also destroy the auto and steel industries too?
Those lefty types?
"Exactly, the workforce don't love going on strike. However, some union leaders do love going on strike and do love to cause disruption. BMA kept the strike going when they knew the only blocker for 99% of junior doctors was weekend pay. Scargill was known for disruption and strikes without the full backing of its members. Longbridge exactly the same, strike for strike, and not wholly supported | |||
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" What I find fascinating is that fifty years ago the country was being held to ransom by broadly working class unions. Today the country is being held to ransom by broadly well paid middle class unions: doctors, nurses, train drivers, teachers etc. " Why do you think you refer to train drivers as ‘middle class’? | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs?" Except they won’t, will they? They will however maintain and indeed improve pay and conditions for their members (and often non-members within the industry as a consequence) | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business" "And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions" "Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs?" "Except they won’t, will they? They will however maintain and indeed improve pay and conditions for their members (and often non-members within the industry as a consequence)" But they do. The car industry was doing badly in the 70s and needed massive changes, but the unions wouldn't allow it so foreign competitors were able to take all the market. In the 80s, coal was in terminal decline and some pits needed closing, but the unions decided to make a stand and ended up with almost everything getting closed. The print unions went on strike to stop newspapers being able to print in colour, and the owners ended up just building new plants and closing the old ones with everyone losing their jobs. Yes. I agree that unions sometimes do a good job of improving standards for the workers, but some of them are just trying to get more power, and are willing to screw the country to get what they want. | |||
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"With regard to rail privatisation it never made sense for a couple of reasons… 1) the infrastructure stuff was already in public hands 2) there was no risk involved for TOCS… they either made a huge profit… or made a mess of it and handed back the franchise with little to no penalty No offence but for example The government appointed people run the east coast main line better than virgin, stagecoach, first and national express ever did! The railways in effect need to be a “not for profit” organisation… where any money made in profits can then be ploughed back into the railways " Do you think that is where any profit would go? It will find its way into the treasury rather than the tracks, just like water company fines  | |||
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"With regard to rail privatisation it never made sense for a couple of reasons… 1) the infrastructure stuff was already in public hands 2) there was no risk involved for TOCS… they either made a huge profit… or made a mess of it and handed back the franchise with little to no penalty No offence but for example The government appointed people run the east coast main line better than virgin, stagecoach, first and national express ever did! The railways in effect need to be a “not for profit” organisation… where any money made in profits can then be ploughed back into the railways " in 2017 cross country trains made a 23 mil profit after tax, they paid 20 mil in dividends to shareholders and over 3 million in bonuses to the board. in 2016 cross country made a profit of 12 mil. they paid 22 mil in dividends to shareholders. private rail business is holding the country to ransom and preventing the modernisation of rail transport whilst paying low wages. | |||
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"With regard to rail privatisation it never made sense for a couple of reasons… 1) the infrastructure stuff was already in public hands 2) there was no risk involved for TOCS… they either made a huge profit… or made a mess of it and handed back the franchise with little to no penalty No offence but for example The government appointed people run the east coast main line better than virgin, stagecoach, first and national express ever did! The railways in effect need to be a “not for profit” organisation… where any money made in profits can then be ploughed back into the railways Do you think that is where any profit would go? It will find its way into the treasury rather than the tracks, just like water company fines "There are ways to counter this As part of the railways bill you can actually state by law if profits are over a certain amount that can be given to the treasury, but under it must be reinvested…. You can still have a bit of competition if it’s in the public interest, for example lumo, grand central and hull trains are all independent operators where they can take risk As someone who worked on the railways I could give you loads of different routes (both national and international) where if there is the space for routing I would absolutely think of running services | |||
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"Directly Operated Railways (East Coast Main Line, 2009–2015) returned over £1 billion to the Treasury in premiums not directly reinvested back into the railway." Funny enough I worked for the operator before DOR, national express, who messed it up big time before handing back the keys and moving my specific job to India because they thought they could do it as well at a far cheaper price (because..call centre! , they even asked if my department could help train new people… to which everyone told them where to go) I was then approached by the operator after DOR, virgin train east coast, if I would consider taking my old role back! Because the India experience was not working, brought back the back office roles to the uk! I loved the job, and seriously though about it.. I know some of my teammates did go back Virgin east coast was in itself a victim of COVID, where for a year revenue coming in was minimal at best for what they had promised to pay to run services, hence giving it back and letting DOR run it again The one thing DOR proved is that a “government based entity” could run the service, could actually improve the service (because profit to shareholders wasn’t a thing and some of that money went back into the service on board and ticket pricing) could actually expand the service Actually I can say something else with regards to my train operator and collaborating with DOR who were fantastic! We were put on standby more than once to take over certain “TOCs franchises “ because it got to the point it was feared their owner would walk away… not going to say which ones | |||
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"Hang on, you just said a seven day railway is being held up. Now you’re saying drivers work Sundays? Is it not right that staff receive overtime for shifts beyond their roster? Historically overtime at time and a half for Saturdays and double time for Sundays was the norm. But this was at a time when most people worked Monday to Friday I’m sure there less demand for rail service at weekends and the fares are very often much cheaper. So paying staff at a higher rate would make the services even less viable. The best option for the operator and customers would be for staff to do either 3 or 4 days, perhaps rotate between the two? But unions would only stand for that if take home pay was the same as working a 5 day week. On the whole that’s my biggest issue with unions, this whole you can’t change things to suit your customers or your business without my consent. I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business " I have jobs where Saturday's are time and a half and Sunday's double bubble but only if the core hours were done in the week. If I was on strike for instance (never actually been on strike) during the week then I wouldn't have gotten overtime rates until I had made up the missed hours | |||
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"As someone who works in the water industry not Thames 😊 all the water companies have a pot of money that's for paying fines. In a nutshell it's cheaper than fixing the problems. Water leaks are categorized some are left for weeks as its cheaper to pay a 100.000 pound fine than a million etc." Something needs to be done about the state of our rivers with sewage being pumped into them. It's a disgrace. | |||
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"Hang on, you just said a seven day railway is being held up. Now you’re saying drivers work Sundays? Is it not right that staff receive overtime for shifts beyond their roster? Historically overtime at time and a half for Saturdays and double time for Sundays was the norm. But this was at a time when most people worked Monday to Friday I’m sure there less demand for rail service at weekends and the fares are very often much cheaper. So paying staff at a higher rate would make the services even less viable. The best option for the operator and customers would be for staff to do either 3 or 4 days, perhaps rotate between the two? But unions would only stand for that if take home pay was the same as working a 5 day week. On the whole that’s my biggest issue with unions, this whole you can’t change things to suit your customers or your business without my consent. I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business I have jobs where Saturday's are time and a half and Sunday's double bubble but only if the core hours were done in the week. If I was on strike for instance (never actually been on strike) during the week then I wouldn't have gotten overtime rates until I had made up the missed hours" The thing about the railways is that even if drivers just did their mandatory hours, and just in effect “worked to rule “ they would be no Sunday service! The railways have always historically worked on overtime! Companies, especially during franchising didn’t want to train their own drivers, and they knew they would be poached by another operator with higher wages! Hopefully this now stops that sort of thing from happening… but again it belies the fact there at some point needs to be a mass drivers training program! And to train a driver it takes years!! So it isn’t going to be an immediate fix! | |||
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"Hang on, you just said a seven day railway is being held up. Now you’re saying drivers work Sundays? Is it not right that staff receive overtime for shifts beyond their roster? Historically overtime at time and a half for Saturdays and double time for Sundays was the norm. But this was at a time when most people worked Monday to Friday I’m sure there less demand for rail service at weekends and the fares are very often much cheaper. So paying staff at a higher rate would make the services even less viable. The best option for the operator and customers would be for staff to do either 3 or 4 days, perhaps rotate between the two? But unions would only stand for that if take home pay was the same as working a 5 day week. On the whole that’s my biggest issue with unions, this whole you can’t change things to suit your customers or your business without my consent. I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business I have jobs where Saturday's are time and a half and Sunday's double bubble but only if the core hours were done in the week. If I was on strike for instance (never actually been on strike) during the week then I wouldn't have gotten overtime rates until I had made up the missed hours The thing about the railways is that even if drivers just did their mandatory hours, and just in effect “worked to rule “ they would be no Sunday service! The railways have always historically worked on overtime! Companies, especially during franchising didn’t want to train their own drivers, and they knew they would be poached by another operator with higher wages! Hopefully this now stops that sort of thing from happening… but again it belies the fact there at some point needs to be a mass drivers training program! And to train a driver it takes years!! So it isn’t going to be an immediate fix!" Recruitment has ramped up massively in prep for the seven day railway - but as you say, due to training time it is a slow turning cog | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? They have shut down entire industries Which Industries have the unions shut down and how?" Car manufacturing. Constant strikes. | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? They have shut down entire industries Which Industries have the unions shut down and how? Car manufacturing. Constant strikes. " It wasn't that which sent them to the wall at all.. Instead of two word cliches perhaps look at what actually caused them to fail, btw for the record some unions in the 70s were at times not serving their members in the way they were meant to but that can also be equally said now of some in management.. | |||
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"Our assets like homes are harder to buy as we are paid less and pay higher bills." Homes are harder to buy because of feminism. Feminists wanted women to have the right to a career instead of just being baby rearers. They fought long and hard to get it accepted that women are just as good as men. That's now led to a situation where all women are expected to have fruitful careers, as well as raising children and being great carers. So almost all households now have 2 wage earners instead of 1. Houses aren't being built at a rate that matches population growth, so house prices go up to match the spare money that people now have. Of course there are other reasons for house prices rising, but none of them is because of legislation that cut trade union powers. "Minimum wage this wage is not what one might think (as in a guaranteed wage), it is the opposite it keeps wages low by law." So instead of raising the minimum wage, Labour should have just abolished it. Then wages would rise. Right? | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? They have shut down entire industries Which Industries have the unions shut down and how? Car manufacturing. Constant strikes. It wasn't that which sent them to the wall at all.. " I think people forget how bad British cars were, largely. | |||
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"Hang on, you just said a seven day railway is being held up. Now you’re saying drivers work Sundays? Is it not right that staff receive overtime for shifts beyond their roster? Historically overtime at time and a half for Saturdays and double time for Sundays was the norm. But this was at a time when most people worked Monday to Friday I’m sure there less demand for rail service at weekends and the fares are very often much cheaper. So paying staff at a higher rate would make the services even less viable. The best option for the operator and customers would be for staff to do either 3 or 4 days, perhaps rotate between the two? But unions would only stand for that if take home pay was the same as working a 5 day week. On the whole that’s my biggest issue with unions, this whole you can’t change things to suit your customers or your business without my consent. I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business I have jobs where Saturday's are time and a half and Sunday's double bubble but only if the core hours were done in the week. If I was on strike for instance (never actually been on strike) during the week then I wouldn't have gotten overtime rates until I had made up the missed hours The thing about the railways is that even if drivers just did their mandatory hours, and just in effect “worked to rule “ they would be no Sunday service! The railways have always historically worked on overtime! Companies, especially during franchising didn’t want to train their own drivers, and they knew they would be poached by another operator with higher wages! Hopefully this now stops that sort of thing from happening… but again it belies the fact there at some point needs to be a mass drivers training program! And to train a driver it takes years!! So it isn’t going to be an immediate fix!" That's similar to my previous experience If we did not work weekends then the work would not have gotten done. Difference is if I had not done my core hours during the week due to being on strike or any other reasons apart from holiday then I would be on flat rate until I had made up the time. Would have been nice to strike on a weekday and earn even more by doing a Sunday | |||
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" What I find fascinating is that fifty years ago the country was being held to ransom by broadly working class unions. Today the country is being held to ransom by broadly well paid middle class unions: doctors, nurses, train drivers, teachers etc. Why do you think you refer to train drivers as ‘middle class’?" Heaven forbid. Does being middle class count for nothing nowadays? | |||
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"I’d personally just shut the business down and make everyone redundant if employees tried telling me how to run my business And that’s precisely why we should all respect unions Because they'll get businesses shut down and all the employees will lose their jobs? They have shut down entire industries Which Industries have the unions shut down and how? Car manufacturing. Constant strikes. It wasn't that which sent them to the wall at all.. I think people forget how bad British cars were, largely. "
And how we as a nation fell behind in such things.. | |||
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