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"So which government do you feel could fix this, and let's be clear, pay rises are needed across the whole of the public sector and private sector too. How do we achieve that ?" If everyone gets a pay rise then the price of everything increases to cover the pay rises and we are back where we started or have I got this wrong? | |||
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"So which government do you feel could fix this, and let's be clear, pay rises are needed across the whole of the public sector and private sector too. How do we achieve that ?" Let's stay on the topic of the BMA and resident doctor pay rises for a moment. Are you saying a 27.4% pay over the last 10 months is not enough and secondly you would support strike action? | |||
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"So which government do you feel could fix this, and let's be clear, pay rises are needed across the whole of the public sector and private sector too. How do we achieve that ?" Why are pay rises “needed”? People only “need” a pay rise if their costs are going up, which begs the question as to why those costs are going up. “Wanting” a pay rise because they would just like more money is a different issue. | |||
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"So which government do you feel could fix this, and let's be clear, pay rises are needed across the whole of the public sector and private sector too. How do we achieve that ? Let's stay on the topic of the BMA and resident doctor pay rises for a moment. Are you saying a 27.4% pay over the last 10 months is not enough and secondly you would support strike action? " Average junior doctor earnings 38-45k + 27% is a 12k pay rise. Minus the 20-40% tax they will move up into and pension contributions. It's fuck all. Even ones taking specialist training on 60-70k+ will pay about 20-30k back in tax. Withdrawal of your skilled labour is the only protection you have to not become a sl8ve and turn yourselves into India; a shining example of how society should work. Exactly why all the GB news readers keep welcoming their people here, as they fill up the jobs left by british people going to better nations that pay their professionals much more! | |||
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"So which government do you feel could fix this, and let's be clear, pay rises are needed across the whole of the public sector and private sector too. How do we achieve that ? Why are pay rises “needed”? People only “need” a pay rise if their costs are going up, which begs the question as to why those costs are going up. “Wanting” a pay rise because they would just like more money is a different issue." Things go up. That’s the way life is. If your pay doesn’t match those increases, you’ve had a pay cut in real terms. Shouldn’t people strive for more than simply treading water year after year? | |||
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"So which government do you feel could fix this, and let's be clear, pay rises are needed across the whole of the public sector and private sector too. How do we achieve that ? Why are pay rises “needed”? People only “need” a pay rise if their costs are going up, which begs the question as to why those costs are going up. “Wanting” a pay rise because they would just like more money is a different issue." You're not seeing the bigger picture. Why do people emigrate to other countries usually? | |||
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"25 million overweight salad dodgers, 300,000 on drugs and alcohol rehab, 6 million smokers with 408,00 admissions for smoking diseases, collectively costing 25% of the annual nhs budget, add 400,000 migrants getting it for free All these basket cases is why the nhs are only being offered 4% " If we’re going to start policing lifestyle choices seriously, it’s a slippery slope to go down… | |||
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"The BMA were always going to strike they let it slip as soon as they got their first big pay out. If anyone can justify another round of strikes after a 27.4% uplift in 10 months, I would be amazed but happy to hear how the justification stacks up against the thousands of missed appointments and treatments." How much of that 27% is pay catch up on three years of austerity 2012-15. I don’t know - am asking. Add the higher interest rates on medical student loans and removing training bursaries (now reinstated) | |||
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" I would be amazed but happy to hear how the justification stacks up against the thousands of missed appointments and treatments." 8 million missed appointments in 1 year. i'm amazed that you're attempting to pin the blame on staff for 8 million idiots not bothering to show up for their treatment .... you're a very odd little chap aren't you  | |||
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"25 million overweight salad dodgers, 300,000 on drugs and alcohol rehab, 6 million smokers with 408,00 admissions for smoking diseases, collectively costing 25% of the annual nhs budget, add 400,000 migrants getting it for free All these basket cases is why the nhs are only being offered 4% If we’re going to start policing lifestyle choices seriously, it’s a slippery slope to go down…" Is we can afford £40bn a year treating above then over 4% pay rises are affordable. | |||
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"25 million overweight salad dodgers, 300,000 on drugs and alcohol rehab, 6 million smokers with 408,00 admissions for smoking diseases, collectively costing 25% of the annual nhs budget, add 400,000 migrants getting it for free All these basket cases is why the nhs are only being offered 4% If we’re going to start policing lifestyle choices seriously, it’s a slippery slope to go down… Is we can afford £40bn a year treating above then over 4% pay rises are affordable. " I completely agree on that point, but we shouldn’t be punishing people for lifestyle choices (or talking ‘basket cases’ as such). | |||
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"The BMA were always going to strike they let it slip as soon as they got their first big pay out. If anyone can justify another round of strikes after a 27.4% uplift in 10 months, I would be amazed but happy to hear how the justification stacks up against the thousands of missed appointments and treatments." I don't understand why you're so against people earning decent money 😂 I earn more per hour than someone who's been to higher ed for years and had to self fund thousands through all of it. I didn't have to do any of that and easier life. I don't have tens of thousands to pay back either. But it's not about me it's about a profession in the UK that is being undermined by poor wages when you can earn double in middle east or better quality of life in aus or Canada. I know what I'd pick, UK would see my backside and middle finger, I'd take my skills where I'm getting renumeration that matches my value. | |||
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" I would be amazed but happy to hear how the justification stacks up against the thousands of missed appointments and treatments. 8 million missed appointments in 1 year. i'm amazed that you're attempting to pin the blame on staff for 8 million idiots not bothering to show up for their treatment .... you're a very odd little chap aren't you "missed GP appointments alone costing the NHS around £216 million annually. missed hospital appointments can cost the NHS £165 per missed slot | |||
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" I would be amazed but happy to hear how the justification stacks up against the thousands of missed appointments and treatments. 8 million missed appointments in 1 year. i'm amazed that you're attempting to pin the blame on staff for 8 million idiots not bothering to show up for their treatment .... you're a very odd little chap aren't you "Please don't reply to me if you are going to add a person insult. | |||
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"The BMA were always going to strike they let it slip as soon as they got their first big pay out. If anyone can justify another round of strikes after a 27.4% uplift in 10 months, I would be amazed but happy to hear how the justification stacks up against the thousands of missed appointments and treatments. I don't understand why you're so against people earning decent money 😂 I earn more per hour than someone who's been to higher ed for years and had to self fund thousands through all of it. I didn't have to do any of that and easier life. I don't have tens of thousands to pay back either. But it's not about me it's about a profession in the UK that is being undermined by poor wages when you can earn double in middle east or better quality of life in aus or Canada. I know what I'd pick, UK would see my backside and middle finger, I'd take my skills where I'm getting renumeration that matches my value." I'm not against people earning descent money. You didn't answer the question. | |||
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"I don't accept any nonsense statements like "don't go into that profession if all you care about is money", as they're stupid. If you're (not specifically you) not able to work out why that way of thinking is stupid then there's little hope for you." Nice way to shut down debate before anyone gets a chance to question you. "People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise." If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money? | |||
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"Most Doctors and teachers have been awarded a 4% pay rise, back dated to April 1st. The government decided to pay out above the already budgeted 2.8%. My favourite group resident doctors will be getting on average 5.4% due to a £750 top up. The pay increase to this group over the last 10 months runs at 27.4%, and the BMA are not happy! No surprise there, but to start to threaten strike action (which was always on the cards ref leaked whatsapp) is outrageous and shows how disconnected they are! Many are struggling with the cost of living and having their own pay rises held low due to NI changes forced onto business, yet here they are demanding more and more. Labour brought this on themselves by throwing billions at the unions and public sector as a thank you for the strikes and unrest. This government has blown it. " The government showed last year they were subservient to the union's. It's hardly a surprise that the union's feel they can hold the government to ransom and yet again get what that want. Question is will the government cave in or will they actually stand strong against their own paymasters | |||
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"Most Doctors and teachers have been awarded a 4% pay rise, back dated to April 1st. The government decided to pay out above the already budgeted 2.8%. My favourite group resident doctors will be getting on average 5.4% due to a £750 top up. The pay increase to this group over the last 10 months runs at 27.4%, and the BMA are not happy! No surprise there, but to start to threaten strike action (which was always on the cards ref leaked whatsapp) is outrageous and shows how disconnected they are! Many are struggling with the cost of living and having their own pay rises held low due to NI changes forced onto business, yet here they are demanding more and more. Labour brought this on themselves by throwing billions at the unions and public sector as a thank you for the strikes and unrest. This government has blown it. The government showed last year they were subservient to the union's. It's hardly a surprise that the union's feel they can hold the government to ransom and yet again get what that want. Question is will the government cave in or will they actually stand strong against their own paymasters" The previous government didn’t even sit at the table to negotiate, preferring strikes to talks | |||
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"Most Doctors and teachers have been awarded a 4% pay rise, back dated to April 1st. The government decided to pay out above the already budgeted 2.8%. My favourite group resident doctors will be getting on average 5.4% due to a £750 top up. The pay increase to this group over the last 10 months runs at 27.4%, and the BMA are not happy! No surprise there, but to start to threaten strike action (which was always on the cards ref leaked whatsapp) is outrageous and shows how disconnected they are! Many are struggling with the cost of living and having their own pay rises held low due to NI changes forced onto business, yet here they are demanding more and more. Labour brought this on themselves by throwing billions at the unions and public sector as a thank you for the strikes and unrest. This government has blown it. The government showed last year they were subservient to the union's. It's hardly a surprise that the union's feel they can hold the government to ransom and yet again get what that want. Question is will the government cave in or will they actually stand strong against their own paymasters The previous government didn’t even sit at the table to negotiate, preferring strikes to talks " Not true, there was 11% on the table but the BMA wasn’t prepared to take the offer due to the offer being bilateral. They were still awarded pay rises in the interim, albeit not at 11%. | |||
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"I don't accept any nonsense statements like "don't go into that profession if all you care about is money", as they're stupid. If you're (not specifically you) not able to work out why that way of thinking is stupid then there's little hope for you. Nice way to shut down debate before anyone gets a chance to question you. People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise. If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money?" Out of interest, what would be your definition of "well-paid"? | |||
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"The BMA were always going to strike they let it slip as soon as they got their first big pay out. If anyone can justify another round of strikes after a 27.4% uplift in 10 months, I would be amazed but happy to hear how the justification stacks up against the thousands of missed appointments and treatments." Mrs. DS works in the private sector and had a pay rise of 15 % this year, and 10 % last year. She normally averages 8% a year. That's private sector. So I don't feel doctors on 27.4% over 10 months when they've been deprived for many years is significant. A friend of mine works in the private sector and he's been offered a 26% rise this year, as he's not had a rise since Covid, so they are playing catch up with him too. I believe the money is there, despite what a lot of the media say. | |||
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"The answer is simple. Public sector pay should be set at the rate of inflation. If they are not happy they can get a job elsewhere. Any doctor that’s happy to let people die just so they can get an over inflated pay rise is not worth having. " Somewhere in the calculations there is a pay catch up A two-year civil service pay freeze between 2011 and 2013 was followed by a 1% average pay cap between 2013 and 2017, saving an estimated £10-20bn in salaries. When inflation was 11.7% on 2024/4 this was not matched by pay rises. Institute of government web shows a graph of ‘real pay’ sliding since 2011 by up to 23% depending on grade. For the nhs no allowance was made for repayments on interest bearing student loans when bursaries were stopped (now reinstated). Separately if rents have increased above inflation for 15 years, where do we expect key workers to live. ( Not saying they have priority over anyone else) | |||
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"Most Doctors and teachers have been awarded a 4% pay rise, back dated to April 1st. The government decided to pay out above the already budgeted 2.8%. My favourite group resident doctors will be getting on average 5.4% due to a £750 top up. The pay increase to this group over the last 10 months runs at 27.4%, and the BMA are not happy! No surprise there, but to start to threaten strike action (which was always on the cards ref leaked whatsapp) is outrageous and shows how disconnected they are! Many are struggling with the cost of living and having their own pay rises held low due to NI changes forced onto business, yet here they are demanding more and more. Labour brought this on themselves by throwing billions at the unions and public sector as a thank you for the strikes and unrest. This government has blown it. The government showed last year they were subservient to the union's. It's hardly a surprise that the union's feel they can hold the government to ransom and yet again get what that want. Question is will the government cave in or will they actually stand strong against their own paymasters The previous government didn’t even sit at the table to negotiate, preferring strikes to talks Not true, there was 11% on the table but the BMA wasn’t prepared to take the offer due to the offer being bilateral. They were still awarded pay rises in the interim, albeit not at 11%. " I was thinking about the railway negotiations in reference to the comment above about unions. The government refused to come to the table. | |||
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"People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise." "If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money?" "Out of interest, what would be your definition of "well-paid"?" I said that doctors were "not particularly well paid", by which I meant that there are plenty of other professions that earn similar or more. If you just wanted 'money and lots of it', you'd aim at becoming a director of a large company. They get much higher salaries, and there are far more company seats than there are consultants places in the NHS. | |||
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"The answer is simple. Public sector pay should be set at the rate of inflation. If they are not happy they can get a job elsewhere. Any doctor that’s happy to let people die just so they can get an over inflated pay rise is not worth having. " this is just the politics of jealousy wanting to stop those serving their country from earning a modest living. disgusting attitude | |||
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"People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise. If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money? Out of interest, what would be your definition of "well-paid"? I said that doctors were "not particularly well paid", by which I meant that there are plenty of other professions that earn similar or more. If you just wanted 'money and lots of it', you'd aim at becoming a director of a large company. They get much higher salaries, and there are far more company seats than there are consultants places in the NHS." That’s like saying that doctors aren’t well paid because Bill Gates has far more money why don’t people just become a tech billionaire instead. Compared to the average doctors are extremely well paid, I live surrounded by doctors, consultants, and surgeons and the idea that they are struggling financially is laughable. It amazes me how much time the UK spends talking about its health service and whether its staff are “paid enough”. I never hear any discussion as to whether bank tellers are “paid enough”, or insurance call centre sales people are “paid enough”. To be fair to the BMA they have just rather crassly done a good job of feathering their members’ nests. They see an opportunity to keep extracting more and more money from the government and they just take it. It’s just far easier for governments to keep handing over cash than it is to confront the medical unions, which is going to take a lot of pain and resolve on a scale that we haven’t seen since the 80’s. The problem has really been created by a succession of weak politicians who have used the NHS to score political points and are now stuck with the consequences. They created the NHS monster and now the monster is devouring them all. Unfortunately it’s taking the rest of us down with it as well. | |||
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"Most Doctors and teachers have been awarded a 4% pay rise, back dated to April 1st. The government decided to pay out above the already budgeted 2.8%. My favourite group resident doctors will be getting on average 5.4% due to a £750 top up. The pay increase to this group over the last 10 months runs at 27.4%, and the BMA are not happy! No surprise there, but to start to threaten strike action (which was always on the cards ref leaked whatsapp) is outrageous and shows how disconnected they are! Many are struggling with the cost of living and having their own pay rises held low due to NI changes forced onto business, yet here they are demanding more and more. Labour brought this on themselves by throwing billions at the unions and public sector as a thank you for the strikes and unrest. This government has blown it. The government showed last year they were subservient to the union's. It's hardly a surprise that the union's feel they can hold the government to ransom and yet again get what that want. Question is will the government cave in or will they actually stand strong against their own paymasters" paymasters you say? i think you'll find that the BMA are not affilliated to the labour party. | |||
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" Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. " Are you familiar with the negotiations? Are there any changes in t’s and c’s or small print? Future conditions? Future staffing numbers or recruitment changes? Changes to pensions? Anything else? If the BMA members vote to strike, then that’s up to them. Doesn’t matter who does or doesn’t support it. It’s not our decision. | |||
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"Here is the breakdown of pay for resident doctors during their "training" periods. Year 1 £36,616 Year 2 £42,008 Specialist training can be shortened in time ST1 £49,909 ST2 £61,825 ST3 £70,425 After completing training: Specialty Doctor: up to £95,400 Specialist Grade Doctor: £96,990 – £107,155 Consultant: £105,504 – £139,882 The average earnings for a trainee at ST2: On call allowance - Weekend shift allowance - Additional hours worked - Night shift allowance. £97655 Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. " Perhaps before asking a yes or no question perhaps include their case in relation to where they are now pay wise taking into consideration the years of austerity.? The figures are there .. | |||
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" Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. Are you familiar with the negotiations? Are there any changes in t’s and c’s or small print? Future conditions? Future staffing numbers or recruitment changes? Changes to pensions? Anything else? If the BMA members vote to strike, then that’s up to them. Doesn’t matter who does or doesn’t support it. It’s not our decision. " Answering the point you have raised. The BMA have a track record of not negotiating. They do not arrive at the table in good faith which can be seen from leaked messages that show exactly this. Knowing this and knowing the damage the BMA caused last time there was strikes do you support BMA striking again. | |||
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"Here is the breakdown of pay for resident doctors during their "training" periods. Year 1 £36,616 Year 2 £42,008 Specialist training can be shortened in time ST1 £49,909 ST2 £61,825 ST3 £70,425 After completing training: Specialty Doctor: up to £95,400 Specialist Grade Doctor: £96,990 – £107,155 Consultant: £105,504 – £139,882 The average earnings for a trainee at ST2: On call allowance - Weekend shift allowance - Additional hours worked - Night shift allowance. £97655 Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. Perhaps before asking a yes or no question perhaps include their case in relation to where they are now pay wise taking into consideration the years of austerity.? The figures are there .." I'm asking if you support the BMA striking | |||
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"Here is the breakdown of pay for resident doctors during their "training" periods. Year 1 £36,616 Year 2 £42,008 Specialist training can be shortened in time ST1 £49,909 ST2 £61,825 ST3 £70,425 After completing training: Specialty Doctor: up to £95,400 Specialist Grade Doctor: £96,990 – £107,155 Consultant: £105,504 – £139,882 The average earnings for a trainee at ST2: On call allowance - Weekend shift allowance - Additional hours worked - Night shift allowance. £97655 Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. Perhaps before asking a yes or no question perhaps include their case in relation to where they are now pay wise taking into consideration the years of austerity.? The figures are there .. I'm asking if you support the BMA striking" I'm suggesting that if you want people to answer a question then present it objectively.. With half the information freely available being omitted it sniffs of bias and the presenter wanting a swayed outcome.. | |||
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"For the record i support any group of workers in taking whatever industrial action they have decided and deem necessary to resolve their issue as per the law.. "I have shown you leaked messages that show the BMA lied about junior doctors demands, prolonging the strike for political reasons. Is this the right time to be demanding money the country hasn't got, when the latest pay rise is above inflation? | |||
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"Here is the breakdown of pay for resident doctors during their "training" periods. Year 1 £36,616 Year 2 £42,008 Specialist training can be shortened in time ST1 £49,909 ST2 £61,825 ST3 £70,425 After completing training: Specialty Doctor: up to £95,400 Specialist Grade Doctor: £96,990 – £107,155 Consultant: £105,504 – £139,882 The average earnings for a trainee at ST2: On call allowance - Weekend shift allowance - Additional hours worked - Night shift allowance. £97655 Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. Perhaps before asking a yes or no question perhaps include their case in relation to where they are now pay wise taking into consideration the years of austerity.? The figures are there .. I'm asking if you support the BMA striking I'm suggesting that if you want people to answer a question then present it objectively.. With half the information freely available being omitted it sniffs of bias and the presenter wanting a swayed outcome.. It is a simple question and I'm not sure what you want in terms of other data. I'm guessing you are hinting at "real term"? That is the same for everyone, the figures supplied are there to remove the back and forth of how much they actually get paid. " Your being disingenuous or obtuse in not accepting that in real terms they as with other public sector workers were put in the shelf during austerity.. Including what they've lost and where they are now is fundamental to their case and this dispute, ignoring that leaves a hole in your 'question'.. Do better please.. | |||
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"Here is the breakdown of pay for resident doctors during their "training" periods. Year 1 £36,616 Year 2 £42,008 Specialist training can be shortened in time ST1 £49,909 ST2 £61,825 ST3 £70,425 After completing training: Specialty Doctor: up to £95,400 Specialist Grade Doctor: £96,990 – £107,155 Consultant: £105,504 – £139,882 The average earnings for a trainee at ST2: On call allowance - Weekend shift allowance - Additional hours worked - Night shift allowance. £97655 Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. Perhaps before asking a yes or no question perhaps include their case in relation to where they are now pay wise taking into consideration the years of austerity.? The figures are there .. I'm asking if you support the BMA striking I'm suggesting that if you want people to answer a question then present it objectively.. With half the information freely available being omitted it sniffs of bias and the presenter wanting a swayed outcome.. It is a simple question and I'm not sure what you want in terms of other data. I'm guessing you are hinting at "real term"? That is the same for everyone, the figures supplied are there to remove the back and forth of how much they actually get paid. Your being disingenuous or obtuse in not accepting that in real terms they as with other public sector workers were put in the shelf during austerity.. Including what they've lost and where they are now is fundamental to their case and this dispute, ignoring that leaves a hole in your 'question'.. Do better please.. "This isn’t a conversation about the past in isolation, it’s about whether the current pay offer, which is above inflation and follows an uplift totalling 27.4%, justifies more industrial action at time the country can't afford. Also taking into account how the BMA were themselves disingenuous in negotiations last time around. | |||
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" Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. Are you familiar with the negotiations? Are there any changes in t’s and c’s or small print? Future conditions? Future staffing numbers or recruitment changes? Changes to pensions? Anything else? If the BMA members vote to strike, then that’s up to them. Doesn’t matter who does or doesn’t support it. It’s not our decision. Answering the point you have raised. The BMA have a track record of not negotiating. They do not arrive at the table in good faith which can be seen from leaked messages that show exactly this. Knowing this and knowing the damage the BMA caused last time there was strikes do you support BMA striking again. " I support any strike action where members vote democratically to strike. | |||
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"The answer is simple. Public sector pay should be set at the rate of inflation. If they are not happy they can get a job elsewhere. Any doctor that’s happy to let people die just so they can get an over inflated pay rise is not worth having. this is just the politics of jealousy wanting to stop those serving their country from earning a modest living. disgusting attitude" £45k is not modest. What’s minimum wage again sorry? I’d say it was fair. And they thought it was fair when they started training for that position. It’s typical union mentality. Bl@ckmail | |||
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"The answer is simple. Public sector pay should be set at the rate of inflation. If they are not happy they can get a job elsewhere. Any doctor that’s happy to let people die just so they can get an over inflated pay rise is not worth having. this is just the politics of jealousy wanting to stop those serving their country from earning a modest living. disgusting attitude £45k is not modest. What’s minimum wage again sorry? I’d say it was fair. And they thought it was fair when they started training for that position. It’s typical union mentality. Bl@ckmail" 45k being modest depends entirely upon where you live. I’d argue if you’re in the south east or London, it’s quite a poor wage. | |||
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" Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. Are you familiar with the negotiations? Are there any changes in t’s and c’s or small print? Future conditions? Future staffing numbers or recruitment changes? Changes to pensions? Anything else? If the BMA members vote to strike, then that’s up to them. Doesn’t matter who does or doesn’t support it. It’s not our decision. Answering the point you have raised. The BMA have a track record of not negotiating. They do not arrive at the table in good faith which can be seen from leaked messages that show exactly this. Knowing this and knowing the damage the BMA caused last time there was strikes do you support BMA striking again. I support any strike action where members vote democratically to strike." I understand that as a position you would take from your rail background. However, I’m talking about the fact that the pay award is above inflation at a time we can least afford it, and I’m more concerned about the conduct of the BMA leadership and their agenda over truth. The BMA did not negotiate in good faith, lied and used the strikes to foster a political narrative. Are you supportive of that type of union influence that was clearly the BMA putting their outcome first. | |||
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"BMA pay submission to DDRB 25/26, dated Nov 24.. Pages 7 to 10 states why they think they are in real terms.. Gives a bit of a clue about their position today, really easy to find .. If one wants their view that is.. "We can’t live in the past, this about the here and now and we all went through pressures, does that mean we all need to be uplifted which would be of zero benefit in real terms. They are not a million miles away after having 27 .4% pay rise over the last 10 months. If they hadn’t had the uplift, we would be having a different conversation, however they have and as a country we are in trouble economically. Are people aware of this, I’m thinking maybe they don’t. | |||
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"People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise." "If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money?" "Out of interest, what would be your definition of "well-paid"?" "I said that doctors were "not particularly well paid", by which I meant that there are plenty of other professions that earn similar or more. If you just wanted 'money and lots of it', you'd aim at becoming a director of a large company. They get much higher salaries, and there are far more company seats than there are consultants places in the NHS." "That’s like saying that doctors aren’t well paid because Bill Gates has far more money why don’t people just become a tech billionaire instead. Compared to the average doctors are extremely well paid, I live surrounded by doctors, consultants, and surgeons and the idea that they are struggling financially is laughable." You've misunderstood me. I'm not attempting to justify a pay increase for doctors. My comment above that they are "not particularly well paid", was in response to someone else claiming that people only go to work to obtain as much money as possible. If that were true, there are plenty of other jobs that pay more money, so those that choose to become doctors must have some other motivation. | |||
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"I don't accept any nonsense statements like "don't go into that profession if all you care about is money", as they're stupid. If you're (not specifically you) not able to work out why that way of thinking is stupid then there's little hope for you. Nice way to shut down debate before anyone gets a chance to question you. People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise. If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money?" Don't take snippets of what I said and interpret them how you want them, and not how I meant, if you want me to respond. Earn as much as possible ≠ earn lots of money | |||
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"People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise. If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money? Out of interest, what would be your definition of "well-paid"? I said that doctors were "not particularly well paid", by which I meant that there are plenty of other professions that earn similar or more. If you just wanted 'money and lots of it', you'd aim at becoming a director of a large company. They get much higher salaries, and there are far more company seats than there are consultants places in the NHS. That’s like saying that doctors aren’t well paid because Bill Gates has far more money why don’t people just become a tech billionaire instead. Compared to the average doctors are extremely well paid, I live surrounded by doctors, consultants, and surgeons and the idea that they are struggling financially is laughable. You've misunderstood me. I'm not attempting to justify a pay increase for doctors. My comment above that they are "not particularly well paid", was in response to someone else claiming that people only go to work to obtain as much money as possible. If that were true, there are plenty of other jobs that pay more money, so those that choose to become doctors must have some other motivation." You're being obtuse | |||
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" If they hadn’t had the uplift, we would be having a different conversation, however they have and as a country we are in trouble economically. Are people aware of this, I’m thinking maybe they don’t." Who's we, you're referring to? | |||
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"Here is the breakdown of pay for resident doctors during their "training" periods. Year 1 £36,616 Year 2 £42,008 Specialist training can be shortened in time ST1 £49,909 ST2 £61,825 ST3 £70,425 After completing training: Specialty Doctor: up to £95,400 Specialist Grade Doctor: £96,990 – £107,155 Consultant: £105,504 – £139,882 The average earnings for a trainee at ST2: On call allowance - Weekend shift allowance - Additional hours worked - Night shift allowance. £97655 Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. " I'm not going to argue with all the holes in these figures as it's tit for tat. The point you are missing is still that the pay and conditions on offer are causing people to leave the UK and take their labour where it's valued. It doesn't matter if anyone thinks it's fair pay or not, the only person it matters to is the ones doing the job. That point is being made clear by the thousands that leave the country for better terms elsewhere. | |||
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"People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise." "If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money?" "Don't take snippets of what I said and interpret them how you want them, and not how I meant, if you want me to respond. Earn as much as possible ≠ earn lots of money" OK then, I'll use your words: If it's true that "people go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible", why would they aim at becoming doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn "money, and as much of it as possible"? | |||
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"People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise. If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money? Don't take snippets of what I said and interpret them how you want them, and not how I meant, if you want me to respond. Earn as much as possible ≠ earn lots of money OK then, I'll use your words: If it's true that "people go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible", why would they aim at becoming doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn "money, and as much of it as possible"? " I'm not a medical professional, I don't know why people train to do those things. However if it's anything like most other professions and trades I'd say just like myself; why I chose to do what I did is that I enjoy it and I'm better than many others at it! Do I think that deserves decent renumeration, yes, but that's not relevant, if you do not pay competitively you lose your workforce and struggle to attract the right quality. Nobody goes to work for "free" though, that is where sl8very comes in, we're not sl8ves in this country yet, not until the billionaires get what they want and continue to guide the gullible to punch down just as this thread has done. | |||
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"People go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible, nobody should kid themselves otherwise. If that's true, why would people become doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn lots of money? Don't take snippets of what I said and interpret them how you want them, and not how I meant, if you want me to respond. Earn as much as possible ≠ earn lots of money OK then, I'll use your words: If it's true that "people go to work to earn money, and as much of it as possible", why would they aim at becoming doctors or nurses? Neither profession is particularly well paid, the training costs are enormous, and it's bloody hard work. Why would they go into that profession if all they wanted was to earn "money, and as much of it as possible"? I'm not a medical professional, I don't know why people train to do those things. However if it's anything like most other professions and trades I'd say just like myself; why I chose to do what I did is that I enjoy it and I'm better than many others at it! Do I think that deserves decent renumeration, yes, but that's not relevant, if you do not pay competitively you lose your workforce and struggle to attract the right quality. Nobody goes to work for "free" though, that is where sl8very comes in, we're not sl8ves in this country yet, not until the billionaires get what they want and continue to guide the gullible to punch down just as this thread has done." Who is punching down on this thread? Unless you consider challenging a union's motives after another above inflation pay rise and the timing of suggested strikes in the NHS so soon after the last disruption as punching down? | |||
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"Here is the breakdown of pay for resident doctors during their "training" periods. Year 1 £36,616 Year 2 £42,008 Specialist training can be shortened in time ST1 £49,909 ST2 £61,825 ST3 £70,425 After completing training: Specialty Doctor: up to £95,400 Specialist Grade Doctor: £96,990 – £107,155 Consultant: £105,504 – £139,882 The average earnings for a trainee at ST2: On call allowance - Weekend shift allowance - Additional hours worked - Night shift allowance. £97655 Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. I'm not going to argue with all the holes in these figures as it's tit for tat. The point you are missing is still that the pay and conditions on offer are causing people to leave the UK and take their labour where it's valued. It doesn't matter if anyone thinks it's fair pay or not, the only person it matters to is the ones doing the job. That point is being made clear by the thousands that leave the country for better terms elsewhere. " You are right retention is a critical, no one disputes that we need talented doctors in the UK. But let’s be honest about what’s on the table. The government just offered a pay deal that’s above inflation, the second one in 10 months. I will repeat that has given resident doctors a 27.4% pay rise. We also need to remember that the NHS pays a pension based on the average earnings of a doctor, which lets face it is not going to be too bad when by year 4 of training they are earning nearly 100k on average. If some are prepared to give up over 100k a year and a pension to work abroad, I'm guessing we can't afford them as a society. There is only a finite amount of resource and other need to have their share. So the question remains, if an above inflation pay rise is not enough, what is the end goal and who decides when it’s reasonable to stop demanding more? | |||
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"Here is the breakdown of pay for resident doctors during their "training" periods. Year 1 £36,616 Year 2 £42,008 Specialist training can be shortened in time ST1 £49,909 ST2 £61,825 ST3 £70,425 After completing training: Specialty Doctor: up to £95,400 Specialist Grade Doctor: £96,990 – £107,155 Consultant: £105,504 – £139,882 The average earnings for a trainee at ST2: On call allowance - Weekend shift allowance - Additional hours worked - Night shift allowance. £97655 Now we have that out of the way, the question I have and I will put this more clearly: Do you support the BMA striking again over the latest pay offer which is above inflation. I'm not going to argue with all the holes in these figures as it's tit for tat. The point you are missing is still that the pay and conditions on offer are causing people to leave the UK and take their labour where it's valued. It doesn't matter if anyone thinks it's fair pay or not, the only person it matters to is the ones doing the job. That point is being made clear by the thousands that leave the country for better terms elsewhere. " So they either trained for 6 years to use their union muscle to change the job description and pay, or with the intention of leaving all along. | |||
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