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"🙈🙈🙈" Dunno what to say, Mrs x | |||
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"🙈🙈🙈Dunno what to say, Mrs x" I think generally it's been a pretty measured and well argued debate, on a subject that provokes strong feelings. All 'sides' have made good points. But perhaps two threads is enough.🤷♂️ | |||
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"Can someone get me up to speed on the other two threads. Please 🙏 "Jools !!🤣🤣 | |||
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"Shall we say the same way as those who are responsible for carrying out the searches on trans men and women responded, when they were told a female officer would be searching a biological male that identified as a woman and male officer would be searching a biological female who identified as a male? You see, this is the inherent problem, we can find fault in everything we don't like and turn a blind just as easily to things" If police officers are being forced to do intimate searches against their will then this is wrong. One would hope that officers have at least some professional autonomy and don't just do whatever they are told to do. But can you not see the imbalance of power between someone being strip-searched and someone doing the search? | |||
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"But perhaps two threads is enough.🤷♂️" If you don't want to discuss this matter then don't. | |||
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"But perhaps two threads is enough.🤷♂️ If you don't want to discuss this matter then don't." No need to be snippy. | |||
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"Shall we say the same way as those who are responsible for carrying out the searches on trans men and women responded, when they were told a female officer would be searching a biological male that identified as a woman and male officer would be searching a biological female who identified as a male? You see, this is the inherent problem, we can find fault in everything we don't like and turn a blind just as easily to things If police officers are being forced to do intimate searches against their will then this is wrong. One would hope that officers have at least some professional autonomy and don't just do whatever they are told to do. But can you not see the imbalance of power between someone being strip-searched and someone doing the search?" Who is forcing the police to do anything? They have a duty to act according to legislation, if they don't not only is any case open to investigation the police officers would be sacked. They are just doing their job, Mrs x | |||
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"Who is forcing the police to do anything? They have a duty to act according to legislation, if they don't not only is any case open to investigation the police officers would be sacked. They are just doing their job, Mrs x" What I was trying to say was that if a police officer feels uncomfortable making someone strip and then the officer having to perform an intimate search then they should be able to decline this without being fired. Especially if they consider the person they are searching to be of the opposite sex or gender. I appreciate this could cause practical problems but forces should respect individual officer's feelings when it comes to such profoundly intimate activity. | |||
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"Who is forcing the police to do anything? They have a duty to act according to legislation, if they don't not only is any case open to investigation the police officers would be sacked. They are just doing their job, Mrs x What I was trying to say was that if a police officer feels uncomfortable making someone strip and then the officer having to perform an intimate search then they should be able to decline this without being fired. Especially if they consider the person they are searching to be of the opposite sex or gender. I appreciate this could cause practical problems but forces should respect individual officer's feelings when it comes to such profoundly intimate activity. " So you are saying a policeman's feelings supercede his duty. You do realise the nature of their job? I'm sure lots of it might be uncomfortable for them but they must uphold the law otherwise whats the point of policing anything. Mrs x | |||
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"So you are saying a policeman's feelings supercede his duty. You do realise the nature of their job? I'm sure lots of it might be uncomfortable for them but they must uphold the law otherwise whats the point of policing anything. Mrs x" What I am saying is that there should be certain reasonable limits to what an officer's duties are. If he or she feels extrememly uncomfortable doing something then there should be some leeway. It's a job and police officers are human beings. | |||
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"So you are saying a policeman's feelings supercede his duty. You do realise the nature of their job? I'm sure lots of it might be uncomfortable for them but they must uphold the law otherwise whats the point of policing anything. Mrs x What I am saying is that there should be certain reasonable limits to what an officer's duties are. If he or she feels extrememly uncomfortable doing something then there should be some leeway. It's a job and police officers are human beings. " To uphold the law, nothing else. It's when leeway comes in to effect and procedures are not followed tha things fuck up. You not seen the news or heard about all the cases of a miscarriage of justices. Police forces would be open to claim after claim if they allowed officers to follow their feelings and not the law. Mrs x | |||
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"I've just spoken to a police officer friend about strip searches. They are always done out of public view, usually in a custody suite or, rarely, in a hospital side room. Every area will have an assigned male and female custody suite officer who are trained to do full searches. They will travel to the location of the person to be searched. Currently, they can only search people of the same sex as on their birth certificate or GRC, but my friend said that will now probably be reviewed. " It's already happening the British Transport Police are the first force to confirm this. Male officers to search 'biological males', strip search if necessary, so trans woman and vice versa for trans men, with female officers performing this. Should imagine all forces will make statements soon. Mrs x | |||
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"I've just spoken to a police officer friend about strip searches. They are always done out of public view, usually in a custody suite or, rarely, in a hospital side room. Every area will have an assigned male and female custody suite officer who are trained to do full searches. They will travel to the location of the person to be searched. Currently, they can only search people of the same sex as on their birth certificate or GRC, but my friend said that will now probably be reviewed. It's already happening the British Transport Police are the first force to confirm this. Male officers to search 'biological males', strip search if necessary, so trans woman and vice versa for trans men, with female officers performing this. Should imagine all forces will make statements soon. Mrs x" Well this stops arrested males identifying as women being searched by females identifying as a woman.  | |||
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"To uphold the law, nothing else. It's when leeway comes in to effect and procedures are not followed tha things fuck up. You not seen the news or heard about all the cases of a miscarriage of justices. Police forces would be open to claim after claim if they allowed officers to follow their feelings and not the law. Mrs x" I'm not aware of any wiscarriages of justice caused by an officer declining to perform an intimate search on someone of the opposite sex or gender. I'm trying to image a circumstance where this would cause a miscarriage of justice as I am assuming that another officer would be willing to take over. If no officer was willing to perform the search then I'd question the morality of the search. | |||
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"I've just spoken to a police officer friend about strip searches. They are always done out of public view, usually in a custody suite or, rarely, in a hospital side room. Every area will have an assigned male and female custody suite officer who are trained to do full searches. They will travel to the location of the person to be searched. Currently, they can only search people of the same sex as on their birth certificate or GRC, but my friend said that will now probably be reviewed. It's already happening the British Transport Police are the first force to confirm this. Male officers to search 'biological males', strip search if necessary, so trans woman and vice versa for trans men, with female officers performing this. Should imagine all forces will make statements soon. Mrs x" Full strip searches are apparently quite rare. My friend is a Chief Inspector who controls a large city area, and the most he has known in one shift is 4. Arrested people are taken to a designated custody suite and, if needed, a suitably gendered custody suite officer will be on duty, or the nearest one summoned to carry out the search. Ordinary beat police officers are never required to do this, only the trained ones, so the issue of refusal would never arise. They would rather not carry out the full body search if they couldn't have the relevant trained officer present. Regarding orders, an officer can be disciplined for refusing to carry out a direct order from a superior, but as has been said, they're not inhuman and leeway is often given. | |||
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"To uphold the law, nothing else. It's when leeway comes in to effect and procedures are not followed tha things fuck up. You not seen the news or heard about all the cases of a miscarriage of justices. Police forces would be open to claim after claim if they allowed officers to follow their feelings and not the law. Mrs x I'm not aware of any wiscarriages of justice caused by an officer declining to perform an intimate search on someone of the opposite sex or gender. I'm trying to image a circumstance where this would cause a miscarriage of justice as I am assuming that another officer would be willing to take over. If no officer was willing to perform the search then I'd question the morality of the search." It's quite arrogant a position to question the morality of a search. If it's required by the law it should be completed by the officer as per the procedures laid out for said search. As for miscarriages of justice, they can occur for a variety of reasons, evidential for example but also procedural. So by not following procedure could result in a miscarriage of justice or a claim against the relevant force. That's why police officers have to follow procedure, it's their duty. I find it very strange you cannot grasp this. Mrs x | |||
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"That's why police officers have to follow procedure, it's their duty. I find it very strange you cannot grasp this. Mrs x" See RAJMLK's post above. It's good to hear that forces do see their officers as human beings and do give them leeway when it is reasonable to do so. | |||
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"Police officers can refuse to carry out an order if they believe it's not legal, but "not reasonable" or "not moral" won't wash. They are expected to carry out an order and complain afterwards." I stand corrected. | |||
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"That's why police officers have to follow procedure, it's their duty. I find it very strange you cannot grasp this. Mrs x See RAJMLK's post above. It's good to hear that forces do see their officers as human beings and do give them leeway when it is reasonable to do so." In 2024 over 5,000 strip searches, where outer clothing was removed and intimate parts exposed, were conducted. This is from the data on Gov.UK. A further 3000 were conducted on children. It's only normally done when the suspicion of a serious crime, ie drugs or weapons are concerned but there's no leeway were procedure dictates this must be done. It happens, Mrs x | |||
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"Police officers can refuse to carry out an order if they believe it's not legal, but "not reasonable" or "not moral" won't wash. They are expected to carry out an order and complain afterwards. I stand corrected. " Isn't that what I said? Mrs x | |||
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"Who is forcing the police to do anything? They have a duty to act according to legislation, if they don't not only is any case open to investigation the police officers would be sacked. They are just doing their job, Mrs x What I was trying to say was that if a police officer feels uncomfortable making someone strip and then the officer having to perform an intimate search then they should be able to decline this without being fired. Especially if they consider the person they are searching to be of the opposite sex or gender. I appreciate this could cause practical problems but forces should respect individual officer's feelings when it comes to such profoundly intimate activity. " If an officer feels uncomfortable doing the job they are trained and payed to do then I would question their suitability to be an officer. | |||
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"1) "Regarding orders, an officer can be disciplined for refusing to carry out a direct order from a superior, but as has been said, they're not inhuman and leeway is often given." 2) "Police officers can refuse to carry out an order if they believe it's not legal, but "not reasonable" or "not moral" won't wash. They are expected to carry out an order and complain afterwards." Thinking about it more, if both of these statements are true it means that police officers are often given orders that they believe are not legal. " Huge leap there. Firstly the 1st statement is anecdotal and the 2nd statement is true for most professions but for it to hold any weight you'd have to know how many orders the police officers have actually refused and how many of these refusals were upheld as a reasonable defence against such orders. But you don't know this and are just hypothesising to suit your narrative. Big, big leap here, very big. Mrs x | |||
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"1) "Regarding orders, an officer can be disciplined for refusing to carry out a direct order from a superior, but as has been said, they're not inhuman and leeway is often given." 2) "Police officers can refuse to carry out an order if they believe it's not legal, but "not reasonable" or "not moral" won't wash. They are expected to carry out an order and complain afterwards." Thinking about it more, if both of these statements are true it means that police officers are often given orders that they believe are not legal. Huge leap there. Firstly the 1st statement is anecdotal and the 2nd statement is true for most professions but for it to hold any weight you'd have to know how many orders the police officers have actually refused and how many of these refusals were upheld as a reasonable defence against such orders. But you don't know this and are just hypothesising to suit your narrative. Big, big leap here, very big. Mrs x" Strip searches are indeed rare but stop and searches are far more common and involve whats commonly called a rub down search. So now a male police officer will be rubbing down trans woman and vice versa for trans men. That's probably the bigger issue for the trans community than strip searches or intimate searches. Mrs x | |||
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