Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Politics |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It didn't seem to bother most of the Fascists who voted for Brexit when they voted to make Britain poorer by leaving the EU but now that the Labour government appears to be making things even worse, I wonder how they will react! Sunny Uplands are just around the corner (again)" All Brexiteers are Fascists? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It didn't seem to bother most of the Fascists who voted for Brexit when they voted to make Britain poorer by leaving the EU but now that the Labour government appears to be making things even worse, I wonder how they will react! Sunny Uplands are just around the corner (again)" By 2030 living standards will be the least of your worries. Just living would be a result. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" The wealth disparities will remain and those in power will continue to sow deflection away from that and they will continue to get richer as society divides.. Therein lies the reality and the problem.." Seconded | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Inevitable consequences of the last 30-40 years House prices at 3x income in 1980, 5.6x income in 2000 and 8.5x income today. Social housing stock reduced by over 50%. National debt increased six fold from 1997 to 2025 now £2.8trn (£35k a head), add PFI and pension liabilities is over £5trn. Consumer debt at credit crunch levels, manufacturing and farming reduced relying on imports. 500,000 graduates annually with £50k student debt each and 1.7 million at university living on interest bearing loans which distort the already one million youth unemployed figures. 4 million self employed most without pension provisions. Lack of investment and money in public services, high taxes for business deterring investment. 9.5 million in receipt of state benefits. Add the next generation coming up to retirement on a deferred state pension, and more of them renters. Closures of final salary pension schemes. None of this can be attributed to Brexit. " Good post. 
I stand corrected on my above post where I said "a trillion in debt".
I didn't have the exact figures but yours seem to be more accurate. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I've been saying for years that the fiscal policies of successive governments will one day hit the buffers. Those buffers are getting closer and this train is showing no real signs of applying the brakes. High taxation, massive borrowing and pretty much unchecked spending (not least on welfare) can only go on for so long. In Britain (and most of western Europe) there are two types of people. Tax payers and tax consumers. Tax consumers are not only people on benefits, all public sector employees qualify for that title. This is nothing new, with only a short interlude every government since WW2 has followed the same pattern. It's only the scale that has increased in recent years. This illusion that Britain is a rich country has been revealed for exactly what it is. A fools paradise. A country of 65 million people carrying a debt of over a trillion is not rich. Choices will have to be made and the days of just chucking money at every problem are coming to an end. And yes, living standards will suffer. Some of those choices will be pretty stark. Would you take money from the NHS to fund Gen Z's lifestyle choices? In todays world what is more important, defence or foreign aid? At the moment Britain spends more on interest payments than defence. The 2 billion plus a year chucked at accommodating illegal migrants would buy a good few tanks as well. Cuts will have to come from somewhere and before the usual howls of "tax the rich" get blurted out I would say be careful what you wish for. Billionaires can move their cash in an instant but even if you took the lot, how long would that last? When it's spent it's spent. Then what? Not forgetting the "greedy bankers" they are not exactly top of my popularity poll but punish them at your peril. Almost a quarter of Britain's tax take comes from the financial sector. Hit it too hard (and it's being hit already) and it could very easily up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt. Then where does NHS funding come from? Growing the economy and creating new (private sector) jobs would be a way forward but this government seems hell bent on doing the opposite. The upcoming NI increases are nothing more than a job tax and the deranged net zero agenda is just piling more costs on business. Officially at least, the gross economy is flat lining but if you take population increase into account then the per capita economy has been in recession for a while. To be fair to Labour they have started to show a little bit of intent. The scrapping of NHS England and the 5 billion in benefit savings (if they go through with it) is a start but it needs to go much further. More Quango's need to go, civil service numbers have to be drastically reduced, benefits have to have much tighter restrictions and last but far from least the net zero madness has to stop. Get fracking." Whilst agreeing with most of that just to say public sector employees also pay tax.. How they're paid is a choice, the current model might not be in some cases the most efficient but add in a profit element and that's not going to be the most beneficial for the user's of the services.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I've been saying for years that the fiscal policies of successive governments will one day hit the buffers. Those buffers are getting closer and this train is showing no real signs of applying the brakes. High taxation, massive borrowing and pretty much unchecked spending (not least on welfare) can only go on for so long. In Britain (and most of western Europe) there are two types of people. Tax payers and tax consumers. Tax consumers are not only people on benefits, all public sector employees qualify for that title. This is nothing new, with only a short interlude every government since WW2 has followed the same pattern. It's only the scale that has increased in recent years. This illusion that Britain is a rich country has been revealed for exactly what it is. A fools paradise. A country of 65 million people carrying a debt of over a trillion is not rich. Choices will have to be made and the days of just chucking money at every problem are coming to an end. And yes, living standards will suffer. Some of those choices will be pretty stark. Would you take money from the NHS to fund Gen Z's lifestyle choices? In todays world what is more important, defence or foreign aid? At the moment Britain spends more on interest payments than defence. The 2 billion plus a year chucked at accommodating illegal migrants would buy a good few tanks as well. Cuts will have to come from somewhere and before the usual howls of "tax the rich" get blurted out I would say be careful what you wish for. Billionaires can move their cash in an instant but even if you took the lot, how long would that last? When it's spent it's spent. Then what? Not forgetting the "greedy bankers" they are not exactly top of my popularity poll but punish them at your peril. Almost a quarter of Britain's tax take comes from the financial sector. Hit it too hard (and it's being hit already) and it could very easily up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt. Then where does NHS funding come from? Growing the economy and creating new (private sector) jobs would be a way forward but this government seems hell bent on doing the opposite. The upcoming NI increases are nothing more than a job tax and the deranged net zero agenda is just piling more costs on business. Officially at least, the gross economy is flat lining but if you take population increase into account then the per capita economy has been in recession for a while. To be fair to Labour they have started to show a little bit of intent. The scrapping of NHS England and the 5 billion in benefit savings (if they go through with it) is a start but it needs to go much further. More Quango's need to go, civil service numbers have to be drastically reduced, benefits have to have much tighter restrictions and last but far from least the net zero madness has to stop. Get fracking. Whilst agreeing with most of that just to say public sector employees also pay tax.. How they're paid is a choice, the current model might not be in some cases the most efficient but add in a profit element and that's not going to be the most beneficial for the user's of the services.." Tax may be shown on the payslip but it's not real tax. When the whole of the salary is paid from taxation then it's only giving a bit back. Nothing new has been generated, it's just the same money sloshing around in the system. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I've been saying for years that the fiscal policies of successive governments will one day hit the buffers. Those buffers are getting closer and this train is showing no real signs of applying the brakes. High taxation, massive borrowing and pretty much unchecked spending (not least on welfare) can only go on for so long. In Britain (and most of western Europe) there are two types of people. Tax payers and tax consumers. Tax consumers are not only people on benefits, all public sector employees qualify for that title. This is nothing new, with only a short interlude every government since WW2 has followed the same pattern. It's only the scale that has increased in recent years. This illusion that Britain is a rich country has been revealed for exactly what it is. A fools paradise. A country of 65 million people carrying a debt of over a trillion is not rich. Choices will have to be made and the days of just chucking money at every problem are coming to an end. And yes, living standards will suffer. Some of those choices will be pretty stark. Would you take money from the NHS to fund Gen Z's lifestyle choices? In todays world what is more important, defence or foreign aid? At the moment Britain spends more on interest payments than defence. The 2 billion plus a year chucked at accommodating illegal migrants would buy a good few tanks as well. Cuts will have to come from somewhere and before the usual howls of "tax the rich" get blurted out I would say be careful what you wish for. Billionaires can move their cash in an instant but even if you took the lot, how long would that last? When it's spent it's spent. Then what? Not forgetting the "greedy bankers" they are not exactly top of my popularity poll but punish them at your peril. Almost a quarter of Britain's tax take comes from the financial sector. Hit it too hard (and it's being hit already) and it could very easily up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt. Then where does NHS funding come from? Growing the economy and creating new (private sector) jobs would be a way forward but this government seems hell bent on doing the opposite. The upcoming NI increases are nothing more than a job tax and the deranged net zero agenda is just piling more costs on business. Officially at least, the gross economy is flat lining but if you take population increase into account then the per capita economy has been in recession for a while. To be fair to Labour they have started to show a little bit of intent. The scrapping of NHS England and the 5 billion in benefit savings (if they go through with it) is a start but it needs to go much further. More Quango's need to go, civil service numbers have to be drastically reduced, benefits have to have much tighter restrictions and last but far from least the net zero madness has to stop. Get fracking. Whilst agreeing with most of that just to say public sector employees also pay tax.. How they're paid is a choice, the current model might not be in some cases the most efficient but add in a profit element and that's not going to be the most beneficial for the user's of the services.. Tax may be shown on the payslip but it's not real tax. When the whole of the salary is paid from taxation then it's only giving a bit back. Nothing new has been generated, it's just the same money sloshing around in the system." The generation is in what those in the public services provide, preventing loss or illness or harm all have an inherent saving be that individually or to the collective.. Society of course needs wealth but it's not only about the worth an individual brings to the pit or indeed has and is judged by because that's not a healthy society nor will it last as history shows.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I've been saying for years that the fiscal policies of successive governments will one day hit the buffers. Those buffers are getting closer and this train is showing no real signs of applying the brakes. High taxation, massive borrowing and pretty much unchecked spending (not least on welfare) can only go on for so long. In Britain (and most of western Europe) there are two types of people. Tax payers and tax consumers. Tax consumers are not only people on benefits, all public sector employees qualify for that title. This is nothing new, with only a short interlude every government since WW2 has followed the same pattern. It's only the scale that has increased in recent years. This illusion that Britain is a rich country has been revealed for exactly what it is. A fools paradise. A country of 65 million people carrying a debt of over a trillion is not rich. Choices will have to be made and the days of just chucking money at every problem are coming to an end. And yes, living standards will suffer. Some of those choices will be pretty stark. Would you take money from the NHS to fund Gen Z's lifestyle choices? In todays world what is more important, defence or foreign aid? At the moment Britain spends more on interest payments than defence. The 2 billion plus a year chucked at accommodating illegal migrants would buy a good few tanks as well. Cuts will have to come from somewhere and before the usual howls of "tax the rich" get blurted out I would say be careful what you wish for. Billionaires can move their cash in an instant but even if you took the lot, how long would that last? When it's spent it's spent. Then what? Not forgetting the "greedy bankers" they are not exactly top of my popularity poll but punish them at your peril. Almost a quarter of Britain's tax take comes from the financial sector. Hit it too hard (and it's being hit already) and it could very easily up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt. Then where does NHS funding come from? Growing the economy and creating new (private sector) jobs would be a way forward but this government seems hell bent on doing the opposite. The upcoming NI increases are nothing more than a job tax and the deranged net zero agenda is just piling more costs on business. Officially at least, the gross economy is flat lining but if you take population increase into account then the per capita economy has been in recession for a while. To be fair to Labour they have started to show a little bit of intent. The scrapping of NHS England and the 5 billion in benefit savings (if they go through with it) is a start but it needs to go much further. More Quango's need to go, civil service numbers have to be drastically reduced, benefits have to have much tighter restrictions and last but far from least the net zero madness has to stop. Get fracking. Whilst agreeing with most of that just to say public sector employees also pay tax.. How they're paid is a choice, the current model might not be in some cases the most efficient but add in a profit element and that's not going to be the most beneficial for the user's of the services.. Tax may be shown on the payslip but it's not real tax. When the whole of the salary is paid from taxation then it's only giving a bit back. Nothing new has been generated, it's just the same money sloshing around in the system. The generation is in what those in the public services provide, preventing loss or illness or harm all have an inherent saving be that individually or to the collective.. Society of course needs wealth but it's not only about the worth an individual brings to the pit or indeed has and is judged by because that's not a healthy society nor will it last as history shows.." I understand where you are coming from and of course you are right what you say about the kind of society. However new money has to come in to pay for that society. If the public sector takes more tax money than the private sector can provide then the said society cannot be sustained. No matter what the benefit of the service and whatever it says on a payslip, it's just the same money sloshing around the system and slowly but surely reducing in value. Borrowing can plug the gaps for a time but cannot go on indefinitely. Eventually we get to the position we are in now when interest payments exceed the budgets of major government departments. It has to stop, whether that be managed with a soft landing or career on until it slams into the buffers for a very painful landing remains to be seen. But stop it has to. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I've been saying for years that the fiscal policies of successive governments will one day hit the buffers. Those buffers are getting closer and this train is showing no real signs of applying the brakes. High taxation, massive borrowing and pretty much unchecked spending (not least on welfare) can only go on for so long. In Britain (and most of western Europe) there are two types of people. Tax payers and tax consumers. Tax consumers are not only people on benefits, all public sector employees qualify for that title. This is nothing new, with only a short interlude every government since WW2 has followed the same pattern. It's only the scale that has increased in recent years. This illusion that Britain is a rich country has been revealed for exactly what it is. A fools paradise. A country of 65 million people carrying a debt of over a trillion is not rich. Choices will have to be made and the days of just chucking money at every problem are coming to an end. And yes, living standards will suffer. Some of those choices will be pretty stark. Would you take money from the NHS to fund Gen Z's lifestyle choices? In todays world what is more important, defence or foreign aid? At the moment Britain spends more on interest payments than defence. The 2 billion plus a year chucked at accommodating illegal migrants would buy a good few tanks as well. Cuts will have to come from somewhere and before the usual howls of "tax the rich" get blurted out I would say be careful what you wish for. Billionaires can move their cash in an instant but even if you took the lot, how long would that last? When it's spent it's spent. Then what? Not forgetting the "greedy bankers" they are not exactly top of my popularity poll but punish them at your peril. Almost a quarter of Britain's tax take comes from the financial sector. Hit it too hard (and it's being hit already) and it could very easily up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt. Then where does NHS funding come from? Growing the economy and creating new (private sector) jobs would be a way forward but this government seems hell bent on doing the opposite. The upcoming NI increases are nothing more than a job tax and the deranged net zero agenda is just piling more costs on business. Officially at least, the gross economy is flat lining but if you take population increase into account then the per capita economy has been in recession for a while. To be fair to Labour they have started to show a little bit of intent. The scrapping of NHS England and the 5 billion in benefit savings (if they go through with it) is a start but it needs to go much further. More Quango's need to go, civil service numbers have to be drastically reduced, benefits have to have much tighter restrictions and last but far from least the net zero madness has to stop. Get fracking." That was the nicest way I've heard anyone put "I pay your wages". So if, as a public sector worker, I'm a tax consumer, then return MY taxes! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I've been saying for years that the fiscal policies of successive governments will one day hit the buffers. Those buffers are getting closer and this train is showing no real signs of applying the brakes. High taxation, massive borrowing and pretty much unchecked spending (not least on welfare) can only go on for so long. In Britain (and most of western Europe) there are two types of people. Tax payers and tax consumers. Tax consumers are not only people on benefits, all public sector employees qualify for that title. This is nothing new, with only a short interlude every government since WW2 has followed the same pattern. It's only the scale that has increased in recent years. This illusion that Britain is a rich country has been revealed for exactly what it is. A fools paradise. A country of 65 million people carrying a debt of over a trillion is not rich. Choices will have to be made and the days of just chucking money at every problem are coming to an end. And yes, living standards will suffer. Some of those choices will be pretty stark. Would you take money from the NHS to fund Gen Z's lifestyle choices? In todays world what is more important, defence or foreign aid? At the moment Britain spends more on interest payments than defence. The 2 billion plus a year chucked at accommodating illegal migrants would buy a good few tanks as well. Cuts will have to come from somewhere and before the usual howls of "tax the rich" get blurted out I would say be careful what you wish for. Billionaires can move their cash in an instant but even if you took the lot, how long would that last? When it's spent it's spent. Then what? Not forgetting the "greedy bankers" they are not exactly top of my popularity poll but punish them at your peril. Almost a quarter of Britain's tax take comes from the financial sector. Hit it too hard (and it's being hit already) and it could very easily up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt. Then where does NHS funding come from? Growing the economy and creating new (private sector) jobs would be a way forward but this government seems hell bent on doing the opposite. The upcoming NI increases are nothing more than a job tax and the deranged net zero agenda is just piling more costs on business. Officially at least, the gross economy is flat lining but if you take population increase into account then the per capita economy has been in recession for a while. To be fair to Labour they have started to show a little bit of intent. The scrapping of NHS England and the 5 billion in benefit savings (if they go through with it) is a start but it needs to go much further. More Quango's need to go, civil service numbers have to be drastically reduced, benefits have to have much tighter restrictions and last but far from least the net zero madness has to stop. Get fracking. Whilst agreeing with most of that just to say public sector employees also pay tax.. How they're paid is a choice, the current model might not be in some cases the most efficient but add in a profit element and that's not going to be the most beneficial for the user's of the services.. Tax may be shown on the payslip but it's not real tax. When the whole of the salary is paid from taxation then it's only giving a bit back. Nothing new has been generated, it's just the same money sloshing around in the system. The generation is in what those in the public services provide, preventing loss or illness or harm all have an inherent saving be that individually or to the collective.. Society of course needs wealth but it's not only about the worth an individual brings to the pit or indeed has and is judged by because that's not a healthy society nor will it last as history shows.. I understand where you are coming from and of course you are right what you say about the kind of society. However new money has to come in to pay for that society. If the public sector takes more tax money than the private sector can provide then the said society cannot be sustained. No matter what the benefit of the service and whatever it says on a payslip, it's just the same money sloshing around the system and slowly but surely reducing in value. Borrowing can plug the gaps for a time but cannot go on indefinitely. Eventually we get to the position we are in now when interest payments exceed the budgets of major government departments. It has to stop, whether that be managed with a soft landing or career on until it slams into the buffers for a very painful landing remains to be seen. But stop it has to." It's not sustainable, hasn't been for decades across many economies so yes 'reform' is needed but what we see is time after time the richest get richer and the poorest get poorer and yes I get totally the point that the wealth creators are critical and shouldn't carry all the burden but there needs to be a bit more from those that won't even notice it.. We've got zero hours and no sick pay in some industry and people paid so low they get benefits from the state instead of a salary that brings tax revenue and doesn't mean they have to go cap in hand to a system that's costing everyone to run.. it's literally the same as Victorian times in many ways for some.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why would anyone be bothered about so called falling living standards. Most people have never had it so good. Look at the number of mobile phones and people constantly accessing the Internet. Go to Mac Donald's and see how many families eat in there. Civil servants and NHS staff have very generous pension schemes which those in the private sector cannot afford. Brexit simply means that we trade on slightly different terms with our European partners. The big advantage is that in addition to trading with the EU on our terms we also can negotiate deals outside the EU. Brexit was a true exercise in democracy. " The mobile phones are on contract The McDonald’s are on debit credit cards Civil service pension schemes are reported as unfunded (£2.3trn) In Prof Danny Dorlings book ‘ all that is solid’ he says one third of the cost of everything is interest. The financial system controls everything. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I've been saying for years that the fiscal policies of successive governments will one day hit the buffers. Those buffers are getting closer and this train is showing no real signs of applying the brakes. High taxation, massive borrowing and pretty much unchecked spending (not least on welfare) can only go on for so long. In Britain (and most of western Europe) there are two types of people. Tax payers and tax consumers. Tax consumers are not only people on benefits, all public sector employees qualify for that title. This is nothing new, with only a short interlude every government since WW2 has followed the same pattern. It's only the scale that has increased in recent years. This illusion that Britain is a rich country has been revealed for exactly what it is. A fools paradise. A country of 65 million people carrying a debt of over a trillion is not rich. Choices will have to be made and the days of just chucking money at every problem are coming to an end. And yes, living standards will suffer. Some of those choices will be pretty stark. Would you take money from the NHS to fund Gen Z's lifestyle choices? In todays world what is more important, defence or foreign aid? At the moment Britain spends more on interest payments than defence. The 2 billion plus a year chucked at accommodating illegal migrants would buy a good few tanks as well. Cuts will have to come from somewhere and before the usual howls of "tax the rich" get blurted out I would say be careful what you wish for. Billionaires can move their cash in an instant but even if you took the lot, how long would that last? When it's spent it's spent. Then what? Not forgetting the "greedy bankers" they are not exactly top of my popularity poll but punish them at your peril. Almost a quarter of Britain's tax take comes from the financial sector. Hit it too hard (and it's being hit already) and it could very easily up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt. Then where does NHS funding come from? Growing the economy and creating new (private sector) jobs would be a way forward but this government seems hell bent on doing the opposite. The upcoming NI increases are nothing more than a job tax and the deranged net zero agenda is just piling more costs on business. Officially at least, the gross economy is flat lining but if you take population increase into account then the per capita economy has been in recession for a while. To be fair to Labour they have started to show a little bit of intent. The scrapping of NHS England and the 5 billion in benefit savings (if they go through with it) is a start but it needs to go much further. More Quango's need to go, civil service numbers have to be drastically reduced, benefits have to have much tighter restrictions and last but far from least the net zero madness has to stop. Get fracking. Whilst agreeing with most of that just to say public sector employees also pay tax.. How they're paid is a choice, the current model might not be in some cases the most efficient but add in a profit element and that's not going to be the most beneficial for the user's of the services.. Tax may be shown on the payslip but it's not real tax. When the whole of the salary is paid from taxation then it's only giving a bit back. Nothing new has been generated, it's just the same money sloshing around in the system. The generation is in what those in the public services provide, preventing loss or illness or harm all have an inherent saving be that individually or to the collective.. Society of course needs wealth but it's not only about the worth an individual brings to the pit or indeed has and is judged by because that's not a healthy society nor will it last as history shows.. I understand where you are coming from and of course you are right what you say about the kind of society. However new money has to come in to pay for that society. If the public sector takes more tax money than the private sector can provide then the said society cannot be sustained. No matter what the benefit of the service and whatever it says on a payslip, it's just the same money sloshing around the system and slowly but surely reducing in value. Borrowing can plug the gaps for a time but cannot go on indefinitely. Eventually we get to the position we are in now when interest payments exceed the budgets of major government departments. It has to stop, whether that be managed with a soft landing or career on until it slams into the buffers for a very painful landing remains to be seen. But stop it has to. It's not sustainable, hasn't been for decades across many economies so yes 'reform' is needed but what we see is time after time the richest get richer and the poorest get poorer and yes I get totally the point that the wealth creators are critical and shouldn't carry all the burden but there needs to be a bit more from those that won't even notice it.. We've got zero hours and no sick pay in some industry and people paid so low they get benefits from the state instead of a salary that brings tax revenue and doesn't mean they have to go cap in hand to a system that's costing everyone to run.. it's literally the same as Victorian times in many ways for some.." In the ideal world I would fully agree but sadly this world is far from ideal at both ends of the scale. Of course people who "won't notice" could pay a bit more, but how much more before (in this unideal world) they say enough and vanish to a more tax friendly location? Top earners are already paying 45%. How much more do you want? The last time Britain had "super tax" it spawned what was known as "the brain drain". Wealthy and professional people deserted the country in droves. At the other end over half a million civil servants is just far too many. And that is only working for central government. Add city/county/town hall staff and it is probably thick end of a million. Plus the NHS. On the benefit front of course as a society we should look after the genuinely disabled and there should always be a safety net for people who fall on hard times. It can happen to the best of us. However it should never be a career choice for the able bodied who just don't want to work. Sadly far too many see that as their lifestyle choice and know how to play the very easily played system. I'm not actually in favour of cutting benefits but making them much more difficult to access for the workshy of which there are many. Bottom line is that Britain is living way beyond its means and governments can no longer be cuddly and all things to all men. Of course it will ruffle a few feathers but it's your choice. Root and branch reform and hopefully a soft landing or a crash landing when the road runs out. As it surely will. The days of wish lists are over. Reality has got its mouth wide open and is heading for your arse. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It didn't seem to bother most of the Fascists who voted for Brexit when they voted to make Britain poorer by leaving the EU but now that the Labour government appears to be making things even worse, I wonder how they will react! Sunny Uplands are just around the corner (again)" only fascists surprised you didnt squeeze nazis in there aswell lol | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It didn't seem to bother most of the Fascists who voted for Brexit when they voted to make Britain poorer by leaving the EU but now that the Labour government appears to be making things even worse, I wonder how they will react! Sunny Uplands are just around the corner (again)" I thought improving living standards was one of Labour's pledges. Surely you must be mistaken to say they will get worse  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I've been saying for years that the fiscal policies of successive governments will one day hit the buffers. Those buffers are getting closer and this train is showing no real signs of applying the brakes. High taxation, massive borrowing and pretty much unchecked spending (not least on welfare) can only go on for so long. In Britain (and most of western Europe) there are two types of people. Tax payers and tax consumers. Tax consumers are not only people on benefits, all public sector employees qualify for that title. This is nothing new, with only a short interlude every government since WW2 has followed the same pattern. It's only the scale that has increased in recent years. This illusion that Britain is a rich country has been revealed for exactly what it is. A fools paradise. A country of 65 million people carrying a debt of over a trillion is not rich. Choices will have to be made and the days of just chucking money at every problem are coming to an end. And yes, living standards will suffer. Some of those choices will be pretty stark. Would you take money from the NHS to fund Gen Z's lifestyle choices? In todays world what is more important, defence or foreign aid? At the moment Britain spends more on interest payments than defence. The 2 billion plus a year chucked at accommodating illegal migrants would buy a good few tanks as well. Cuts will have to come from somewhere and before the usual howls of "tax the rich" get blurted out I would say be careful what you wish for. Billionaires can move their cash in an instant but even if you took the lot, how long would that last? When it's spent it's spent. Then what? Not forgetting the "greedy bankers" they are not exactly top of my popularity poll but punish them at your peril. Almost a quarter of Britain's tax take comes from the financial sector. Hit it too hard (and it's being hit already) and it could very easily up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt. Then where does NHS funding come from? Growing the economy and creating new (private sector) jobs would be a way forward but this government seems hell bent on doing the opposite. The upcoming NI increases are nothing more than a job tax and the deranged net zero agenda is just piling more costs on business. Officially at least, the gross economy is flat lining but if you take population increase into account then the per capita economy has been in recession for a while. To be fair to Labour they have started to show a little bit of intent. The scrapping of NHS England and the 5 billion in benefit savings (if they go through with it) is a start but it needs to go much further. More Quango's need to go, civil service numbers have to be drastically reduced, benefits have to have much tighter restrictions and last but far from least the net zero madness has to stop. Get fracking. Whilst agreeing with most of that just to say public sector employees also pay tax.. How they're paid is a choice, the current model might not be in some cases the most efficient but add in a profit element and that's not going to be the most beneficial for the user's of the services.. Tax may be shown on the payslip but it's not real tax. When the whole of the salary is paid from taxation then it's only giving a bit back. Nothing new has been generated, it's just the same money sloshing around in the system. The generation is in what those in the public services provide, preventing loss or illness or harm all have an inherent saving be that individually or to the collective.. Society of course needs wealth but it's not only about the worth an individual brings to the pit or indeed has and is judged by because that's not a healthy society nor will it last as history shows.. I understand where you are coming from and of course you are right what you say about the kind of society. However new money has to come in to pay for that society. If the public sector takes more tax money than the private sector can provide then the said society cannot be sustained. No matter what the benefit of the service and whatever it says on a payslip, it's just the same money sloshing around the system and slowly but surely reducing in value. Borrowing can plug the gaps for a time but cannot go on indefinitely. Eventually we get to the position we are in now when interest payments exceed the budgets of major government departments. It has to stop, whether that be managed with a soft landing or career on until it slams into the buffers for a very painful landing remains to be seen. But stop it has to. It's not sustainable, hasn't been for decades across many economies so yes 'reform' is needed but what we see is time after time the richest get richer and the poorest get poorer and yes I get totally the point that the wealth creators are critical and shouldn't carry all the burden but there needs to be a bit more from those that won't even notice it.. We've got zero hours and no sick pay in some industry and people paid so low they get benefits from the state instead of a salary that brings tax revenue and doesn't mean they have to go cap in hand to a system that's costing everyone to run.. it's literally the same as Victorian times in many ways for some.. In the ideal world I would fully agree but sadly this world is far from ideal at both ends of the scale. Of course people who "won't notice" could pay a bit more, but how much more before (in this unideal world) they say enough and vanish to a more tax friendly location? Top earners are already paying 45%. How much more do you want? The last time Britain had "super tax" it spawned what was known as "the brain drain". Wealthy and professional people deserted the country in droves. At the other end over half a million civil servants is just far too many. And that is only working for central government. Add city/county/town hall staff and it is probably thick end of a million. Plus the NHS. On the benefit front of course as a society we should look after the genuinely disabled and there should always be a safety net for people who fall on hard times. It can happen to the best of us. However it should never be a career choice for the able bodied who just don't want to work. Sadly far too many see that as their lifestyle choice and know how to play the very easily played system. I'm not actually in favour of cutting benefits but making them much more difficult to access for the workshy of which there are many. Bottom line is that Britain is living way beyond its means and governments can no longer be cuddly and all things to all men. Of course it will ruffle a few feathers but it's your choice. Root and branch reform and hopefully a soft landing or a crash landing when the road runs out. As it surely will. The days of wish lists are over. Reality has got its mouth wide open and is heading for your arse." Again we are in the same page with everything after the first paragraph, on that specifically I don't know the numbers that would be appropriate as it's so complicated by design I would add it's probably undoable .. My arse is fine, we are ok purely down to being lucky in health and quite prudent.. Not sure I like the look of how our society has been going but that's another issue.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Again we are in the same page with everything after the first paragraph, on that specifically I don't know the numbers that would be appropriate as it's so complicated by design I would add it's probably undoable .. My arse is fine, we are ok purely down to being lucky in health and quite prudent.. Not sure I like the look of how our society has been going but that's another issue.. " Yes I think we are mostly in agreement. Nice debating with you but other things to do now. Have a good day xx | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Again we are in the same page with everything after the first paragraph, on that specifically I don't know the numbers that would be appropriate as it's so complicated by design I would add it's probably undoable .. My arse is fine, we are ok purely down to being lucky in health and quite prudent.. Not sure I like the look of how our society has been going but that's another issue.. Yes I think we are mostly in agreement. Nice debating with you but other things to do now. Have a good day xx" Ditto and you also.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It didn't seem to bother most of the Fascists who voted for Brexit when they voted to make Britain poorer by leaving the EU but now that the Labour government appears to be making things even worse, I wonder how they will react! Sunny Uplands are just around the corner (again) I thought improving living standards was one of Labour's pledges. Surely you must be mistaken to say they will get worse "Things did seem better under the Blair government than this one. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving." It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"We have been living the good life for far too long now it's catching up with us." We? Speak for yourself | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Brexit was fucked up by the tories, this government are the worst bunch of clowns this country has ever had by miles! The facists who voted liebour in should be ashamed of themselves. By 2030 the great reset will be in full flow." 
You should go on that new tv show, last one laughing. You always come out with comedy gold | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving. It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes." Any EU citizen can be removed from another EU nation after 3 months if they do not fulfill that MS's requirements; in Belgium for example they haslve strict rules, such as going through an ID process, proof of employment, renting, visit s by the police, no criminal record; UK just didn't enforce what other EU MSs do. By leaving the ECHR; this will impact the Good Friday Agreement & the current EU-UK trade deal, the TCA; what is you proposals for dealing with both of these?? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Brexit was fucked up by the tories, this government are the worst bunch of clowns this country has ever had by miles! The facists who voted liebour in should be ashamed of themselves. By 2030 the great reset will be in full flow." people who voted for labour are facists😂😂😂think someone needs to layoff the shandybass 😂😂 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving. It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes." can't believe I'm saying this but maybe the way trump is ripping things up we need to grow some balls and leave the ECHR and put Britain first. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving. It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes. can't believe I'm saying this but maybe the way trump is ripping things up we need to grow some balls and leave the ECHR and put Britain first." I wondering what would the consequences be for ignoring the echr, there are a few European countries who do this already. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving." "It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes." "Any EU citizen can be removed from another EU nation after 3 months ..." Yes, if they could be found, they could have been removed after 3 months. That's not the same as preventing them from arriving here in the first place. "By leaving the ECHR; this will impact the Good Friday Agreement & the current EU-UK trade deal, the TCA; what is you proposals for dealing with both of these??" I'm not advocating such a course of action, I'm just saying that Brexit could have achieved a reduction in immigration if the politicians had the will to implement it. I should also have said that we'd need to leave the 1951 Convention on Refugees as well. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving." "It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes." "can't believe I'm saying this but maybe the way trump is ripping things up we need to grow some balls and leave the ECHR and put Britain first. I wondering what would the consequences be for ignoring the echr, there are a few European countries who do this already." Sadly, that would have little effect. While we are still subject to the ECHR, the UK's courts will be required to consider ECHR rulings, so the massive legal machine that fights for the rights of immigrants will continue on unabated, taking years to come to a conclusion before the government gets a chance to ignore it. To cut out the legal shenanigans we would have to actualy leave the ECHR. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving. It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes. can't believe I'm saying this but maybe the way trump is ripping things up we need to grow some balls and leave the ECHR and put Britain first. I wondering what would the consequences be for ignoring the echr, there are a few European countries who do this already. Sadly, that would have little effect. While we are still subject to the ECHR, the UK's courts will be required to consider ECHR rulings, so the massive legal machine that fights for the rights of immigrants will continue on unabated, taking years to come to a conclusion before the government gets a chance to ignore it. To cut out the legal shenanigans we would have to actualy leave the ECHR." And what has immigration got to do with living standards. Immigration has nothing to do with bill and the cost of living going up. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving. It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes. can't believe I'm saying this but maybe the way trump is ripping things up we need to grow some balls and leave the ECHR and put Britain first. I wondering what would the consequences be for ignoring the echr, there are a few European countries who do this already. Sadly, that would have little effect. While we are still subject to the ECHR, the UK's courts will be required to consider ECHR rulings, so the massive legal machine that fights for the rights of immigrants will continue on unabated, taking years to come to a conclusion before the government gets a chance to ignore it. To cut out the legal shenanigans we would have to actualy leave the ECHR. And what has immigration got to do with living standards. Immigration has nothing to do with bill and the cost of living going up. " There will be a correlation. More to the point, how can you say Fascism and Labour in the same breath (or Brexit and Labour). A lot of wonky leanings in this thread  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving." I voted remain but done plenty of research before voting. Almost every leading economist in the UK stated that cutting tarrif free trade with our closest neighbours would be economic suicide. We have to deal with the EU regularly and no longer have a say or a veto so we lost control there! The main reasons for people voting for brexit was sovereignty and we would be free to trade with other countries individually. So we're are these great global trade deals? New Zealand lamb??? Regardless of any global trade deal we may get it will never replace what we had with thr EU. The other reason was immigration, however all that did was stop freedom of movement in the EU with Europeans now requiring a visa to live and work here. How was that going to stop illegal immigration or asylum seekers? Sold a lie? Or just chose to believe it? Or just tired of listening to experts! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Why would anyone be bothered about so called falling living standards. Most people have never had it so good. Look at the number of mobile phones and people constantly accessing the Internet. Go to Mac Donald's and see how many families eat in there. Civil servants and NHS staff have very generous pension schemes which those in the private sector cannot afford. Brexit simply means that we trade on slightly different terms with our European partners. The big advantage is that in addition to trading with the EU on our terms we also can negotiate deals outside the EU. Brexit was a true exercise in democracy. " Tell us about those negotiated deals now the UK is outside the EU | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving." "It wasn't a lie. When in the EU we could not legally prevent immigration from the EU, and now that we've left we can do so. It's just that the governments haven't done it. To do so properly we would have to leave the ECHR, but no political party wants to do that as they think it will lose them too many votes." "can't believe I'm saying this but maybe the way trump is ripping things up we need to grow some balls and leave the ECHR and put Britain first. I wondering what would the consequences be for ignoring the echr, there are a few European countries who do this already." "Sadly, that would have little effect. While we are still subject to the ECHR, the UK's courts will be required to consider ECHR rulings, so the massive legal machine that fights for the rights of immigrants will continue on unabated, taking years to come to a conclusion before the government gets a chance to ignore it. To cut out the legal shenanigans we would have to actualy leave the ECHR." "And what has immigration got to do with living standards. Immigration has nothing to do with bill and the cost of living going up." I've not made any claims about immigration or living standards. The bloke above said he thought that immigration control was a lie, and I'm just pointing out that it wasn't. The problem (for that guy) is that one group of people was saying that immigration could be controlled, but it was a different group of people that got elected to lead the country. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The drained pool political theory can go some way to explaining some people’s voting behaviour." Synopsis? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It didn't seem to bother most of the Fascists who voted for Brexit when they voted to make Britain poorer by leaving the EU but now that the Labour government appears to be making things even worse, I wonder how they will react! Sunny Uplands are just around the corner (again) I thought improving living standards was one of Labour's pledges. Surely you must be mistaken to say they will get worse
Things did seem better under the Blair government than this one. "Before and shortly after the election I read several comments about the Blair government and how good things were, how they payed down the debt and reduced borrowing etc while improving the nation's assets. It appeared that people were expecting this labour government to be like Blair's Labour government. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Before and shortly after the election I read several comments about the Blair government and how good things were, how they payed down the debt and reduced borrowing etc while improving the nation's assets." Technically yes. But in reality they improved the nations assets with the Private Finance Initiative. PFI meant getting private companies to build things like hospitals, then paying that private company a huge amount of money every year for the next 40 years. Because of the way it was structured, it doesn't count as borrowing, nor is the majority of it recorded as debt. But it's a contract to keep paying for decades. If you include PFI, the New Labour government significantly increased debt, and would have had to borrow a lot more to cover it without the accounting jiggery-pokery. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Before and shortly after the election I read several comments about the Blair government and how good things were, how they payed down the debt and reduced borrowing etc while improving the nation's assets. Technically yes. But in reality they improved the nations assets with the Private Finance Initiative. PFI meant getting private companies to build things like hospitals, then paying that private company a huge amount of money every year for the next 40 years. Because of the way it was structured, it doesn't count as borrowing, nor is the majority of it recorded as debt. But it's a contract to keep paying for decades. If you include PFI, the New Labour government significantly increased debt, and would have had to borrow a lot more to cover it without the accounting jiggery-pokery." Exactly this. Wiki says in November 2010 the UK government released spending figures showing that the current total payment obligation for PFI contracts in the UK was £267 billion. Add that and the £430bn actual increase in national debt from 1997 -2010. And they are not far off the trajectory of the tories trebling the debt from £878bn to £2,600bn between 2010-2025. One report said that on one nhs PFI contract that cost £80bn it delivered £13bn actual investment into the nhs. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The drained pool political theory can go some way to explaining some people’s voting behaviour. Synopsis?" It’s based on the response to desegregation in America, people cutting their noses off to spite their face in order to prevent sharing resources/ people gaining equality/ stopping people’s humanity being recognised. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Before and shortly after the election I read several comments about the Blair government and how good things were, how they payed down the debt and reduced borrowing etc while improving the nation's assets. Technically yes. But in reality they improved the nations assets with the Private Finance Initiative. PFI meant getting private companies to build things like hospitals, then paying that private company a huge amount of money every year for the next 40 years. Because of the way it was structured, it doesn't count as borrowing, nor is the majority of it recorded as debt. But it's a contract to keep paying for decades. If you include PFI, the New Labour government significantly increased debt, and would have had to borrow a lot more to cover it without the accounting jiggery-pokery." Don't forget the Gold they flogged off at fire sale price. Imagine if we still had that today. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As someone who voted for Brexit I now believe we was sold a lie! The main one being cutting illegal immigrants which is costing millions. I can't see any positives for leaving. I voted remain but done plenty of research before voting. Almost every leading economist in the UK stated that cutting tarrif free trade with our closest neighbours would be economic suicide. We have to deal with the EU regularly and no longer have a say or a veto so we lost control there! The main reasons for people voting for brexit was sovereignty and we would be free to trade with other countries individually. So we're are these great global trade deals? New Zealand lamb??? Regardless of any global trade deal we may get it will never replace what we had with thr EU. The other reason was immigration, however all that did was stop freedom of movement in the EU with Europeans now requiring a visa to live and work here. How was that going to stop illegal immigration or asylum seekers? Sold a lie? Or just chose to believe it? Or just tired of listening to experts!" You missed out people voting for Brexit, because of what was on a big red bus. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Before and shortly after the election I read several comments about the Blair government and how good things were, how they payed down the debt and reduced borrowing etc while improving the nation's assets. Technically yes. But in reality they improved the nations assets with the Private Finance Initiative. PFI meant getting private companies to build things like hospitals, then paying that private company a huge amount of money every year for the next 40 years. Because of the way it was structured, it doesn't count as borrowing, nor is the majority of it recorded as debt. But it's a contract to keep paying for decades. If you include PFI, the New Labour government significantly increased debt, and would have had to borrow a lot more to cover it without the accounting jiggery-pokery." Indeed a smoke and mirrors conjuring trick. Still people seemed to be expecting a repeat of the good stuff and kept going on about how much better Blair's Labour was so best get Labour back in office quickly. Seems this lot only share the same party name to Blair and co | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Seems this lot only share the same party name to Blair and co" They don't even have that. Blair was very insistent that his party was called "New Labour", and was completely different to the old Labour of the 70s. This lot have dropped that and gone back to "The Labour Party". | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
